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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-11-05

---Logopened Wed Nov 05 00:00:04 2008
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01:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm, 99% counted and still too close to call
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01:22<rubyruy>is there a patch/grf that implements max storage limits on stations based on size (and would thus make all the neat storehouse graphics from newstations actually do something) ?
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01:23<Eddi|zuHause>i remember someone attempting a patch
01:24<Eddi|zuHause>but imho, those non-track stations should rather have influence on the station rating for different cargos
01:25<Eddi|zuHause>like, an entrance building could give +10% for passengers
01:25<Eddi|zuHause>or a warehouse could reduce the rating influence of larger stockpiles
01:25<rubyruy>oh yeah i forgot stockpiles influence ratings
01:25<Eddi|zuHause>or less decay for ratings when no vehicle is waiting
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01:25<rubyruy>that would be neat
01:25<rubyruy>i think i agree
01:26<Eddi|zuHause>also, they should be split from rail stations
01:26<rubyruy>it's a huge PITA to build pretty stations because you have to dynamite the whole thing
01:26<rubyruy>if you make a mistake
01:26<Eddi|zuHause>you don'T
01:26<Eddi|zuHause>you can use the bulldozer tool
01:27<rubyruy>ok so what do you mean about splitting them from rail stations?
01:27<rubyruy>just be in a different build menu?
01:27<rubyruy>the build UI definitely is lacking
01:27<rubyruy>at the very least the picker window should be resizable
01:28<Eddi|zuHause>various things, like the catchment area, or the limits of building on slopes
01:28<Eddi|zuHause>which are direct results of non-track tiles being counted as rail stations
01:29<rubyruy>on a completely different topic - has anyone ever attempted to make larger depots?
01:29<Doorslammer>I love that moment of realisation that years of doing it one way was pointless ;)
01:29<rubyruy>with all the wonderful grfs floating around having a giant train squeeze into a depot actually starts to break the immersion a little
01:30<rubyruy>on a similar note - properly scaled ships would be nice
01:30<rubyruy>i believe the ship thing is technically posisble now? just nobody made graphics yet?
01:31<Eddi|zuHause>ships need much more improvement, not just graphically
01:31<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. non-overlapping ships
01:31<Eddi|zuHause>which requires a way to define right of way for ships
01:32<Eddi|zuHause>especially in narrow canals, ships need to be prevented from deadlocking
01:32<Eddi|zuHause>trains do that by signalling, road vehicles do that by having separate lanes for each direction
01:33<rubyruy>one of these days i should really start picking up C and trying to make a patch :)
01:33<Eddi|zuHause>the great advantage of ships is that they do not need a lot of infrastructure, this should be kept, but it makes it difficult to control them
01:34<rubyruy>i'm horribly useless in non-dynamic, non-memory-managed, non-object-oriented programming though so it will prolly be very painfull :p
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03:09<dih> o/
03:10<dih>or - for syamese twins: \oo/
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03:12<@Celestar>they found Opals on Mars :o
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03:21<dih>they'll find masians can give them a boot up the rear too at some point :-P
03:22<@Celestar>don't understand last comment :P
03:23*Celestar wonders whether one can extract the water from the Opals
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03:36<@petern>not just you
03:36<dih>just a slightly silly + unimportnat comment
03:36<dih>nothing worth striving to understand :-P
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04:25<@Celestar>reading about transuranic elements is fun
04:26<@Celestar>sometimes those guys really produced less than a handful of atoms
04:26<keyweed_>which last for less then the blink of an eye
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04:30<@Celestar>some of them even last for minutes
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04:31<@Celestar>Uuq-289 has 21 seconds half-life
04:32<@Celestar>Uuq-298 (not produced yet) will possibly even have a much higher (possible OOM) half-life
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04:39<ln->how about changing the reverse-at-the-end-of-lines-only thing?
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04:45<rortom>anyone here?
04:46<rortom>could someone verify that my server is instalntly desyncing?
04:46<planetmaker>the vastness of cyberspace is here.
04:47<rortom> in the server list
04:47<rortom>i can join, but stay connected some seconds before it desyncs :((
04:47<planetmaker>sorry, no game@work.
04:47<rortom>understandable ;)
04:47<Ammler>no wort to play :P
04:48<Ammler>no work
04:52<planetmaker>sufficient work to play...
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04:56<@Celestar>rortom: what happens if you reload the server?
04:57<rortom>via rcon?
04:58<@Celestar>for example
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04:58<@Celestar> <= nice orbital
04:58<ln->wtf, "[Visual Studio 2008] Upgrade Pricing Eligibility: To qualify for upgrade pricing, you must be a licensed user of one of the following products: * An earlier version of Microsoft Visual Studio
04:58<ln->* Any other developer tool (including free developer tools, such as Visual Studio Express Editions or Eclipse)"
04:59<rortom>whahhaa :P
04:59<rortom>microsoft fails yet again ;)
05:00<rortom>Celestar: to to reload the server?
05:00<@Celestar>rortom: ?
05:00<keyweed_>Celestar: i was confusing transuranic for transactinide. sorry
05:01*keyweed_ should know his ununhexium from his nobelium
05:01<rortom>Celestar: rcon <> "reload" ?
05:01*rortom too stupid to find it in the wiki :|
05:01<@Celestar>I dunno much about rcon
05:01<@Celestar>Ammler's the expect, or dih
05:02<Ammler>!save && !rcon load game
05:02<rortom>ah, nice, thanks :)
05:02<Ammler>but hat dioes work only with ap
05:03<rortom>the question is whether i can put that so fast into the console :\
05:03<Ammler>rcon save game
05:03<Ammler>rcon load game
05:03<rortom>the thing is
05:03<rortom>it desyncs aber some seconds :|
05:03<Ammler>does it still desync after reload?
05:04<rortom>how to reload if it desyncs before i am able to enter the commands?
05:04<Ammler>then you have an other issue then we had.
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05:04<Ammler>don't you have access to the server console?
05:05<rortom>but thats the log only?
05:05<@Celestar>rortom: er no :)
05:05<@Celestar>you can enter commands there
05:05<@Celestar>just type pause :P
05:05<rortom>oh ;)
05:06<@petern>we need readline support ;)
05:06*rortom = stupid :p
05:06<rortom>you should use some fancy ncurses ;)
05:07<@Celestar>sounds good
05:07<@Celestar>is there any ncurses for windows?
05:07<rortom>let me search the link again
05:07<rortom>there was some cross-platform thing
05:08<rortom>works great :)
05:10<rortom>mhm, also
05:10<rortom>after reloading the server does not desync anymore
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05:20*davis-- hi
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05:36<dih>read reverlation... i wait for the 3 kings and the 7 headed creature that crawls out of the sea
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08:45<@Belugas>read reservations... I wait for my 3 wifes and seven hairy kids to crawl up on their seats
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08:58<planetmaker>you must be a lucky man, Belugas :P
09:00<@Belugas>no :) i'm just mocking up dih's previous post ^_^
09:00<@Belugas>hell... i have one kid and one wife, and it's enough alright ;)
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09:03<@Belugas>i love them very dearly, don't take mewrongly
09:06<planetmaker>hehe :) One woman is sufficient to keep one occupied :)
09:07<@Belugas>you bet
09:10<Eddi|zuHause><ln-> <- excuse me if i'm wrong, but Obama is christian, too...
09:15<@Belugas>what a pityful display of ignorance and prejudice... the post, not ln...
09:16<Char> hmmmm. i was not aware that it is actually possible to make the game challenging in single player
09:16<@Belugas>can't even spell Barack correclty :P
09:16<fjb>Beware of religious people.
09:16<fjb>Especially stupid religious people...
09:16<Char>no, dont beware of religious people. beware of religious people that are on the edge of being fanatic
09:17<@Belugas>yup yup yup
09:17<Char>most of the religious people are perfectly okay
09:17<@Belugas>any kind of fanatism is to be avoided
09:17<@Belugas>not only religious
09:17<Char>thats true, though
09:18<fjb>Religion always devides people between "us" and "them".
09:18<Char>but religious fanatism has yet brought some of the weirdest excrescences, so you might want to be a little extra-careful there.
09:19<dih>fjb: the berlin wall did the same
09:19<@Belugas>"And after all we're only ordinary men"
09:19<@Belugas>"Me, and you"
09:19<@Belugas>"God only knows it's not what we would choose to do"
09:19<dih>"stasi" also created an atmosphere of us and them
09:19<fjb>dih: I did not say that only religion does it, but religion always does it.
09:20<dih>everything does it
09:20<@Belugas>god i love Pink Floyd
09:20<dih>as soon as you get opinion involved
09:20<dih>heck - kill free will
09:20*fjb loves Pink Floyed too.
09:20<Char>... and i once thought this was a channel for openttd.
09:20<Eddi|zuHause><fjb> Religion always devides people between "us" and "them". <- football does that, too...
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09:21<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Football is a kind of religion.
09:21<@Belugas>Char, it's not DEVOTED to OpenTTD only
09:21<dih>fjb: Open and Patch does it too
09:21<@Belugas>don't be a fanatic of OpenTTD ^_^
09:21<Char>well. i dont think that dividing people into "us" and "them" is yet a bad thing
09:21<@Belugas>it is a bad thing alright
09:21<dih>us and them emphasises 2 groups - which also is rubbish
09:21<@Belugas>what are the differences?
09:22<@Belugas>none aprat ideology
09:22<@Belugas>does an ideology feeds you?
09:22<Char>unless you start thinking that the "us" people are better in general, it is the only way to be, "them" should be killed or whatever
09:22<fjb>dih: As I told you: I did not say that only religion devides people. My statement was not bijective.
09:22<@Belugas>can you fuck an idelogogy? neither
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>even nature does divide people into "us" and "them"...
09:22<@Belugas>so... useless to fight for
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>by giving one group an Y-chromosome
09:22<dih>fjb: your statement was silly because there is nothing that does not devide into 'us' and 'them'
09:23<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause... Eddi|zuHause... Eddi|zuHause... that is not dividing :) it's pleasure!
09:23<@Belugas>pleasure in uniting that is ;)
09:23<dih>Belugas: talk to same-sex couples :-P
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>exactly, dividing things is not a ba thing per se...
09:23<dih>at leas one part will not agree
09:24<@Belugas>dih : who cares? as loing as love is in the air?
09:24*dih sings along :-P
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: i'm sure the person writing that forum post cares :p
09:25<@Belugas>and honestly, why should one care who or what the neighbours are fucking? it's totallyu not one's business
09:25<@Belugas>to live and let die
09:25<@Belugas>love is all you need
09:25<@Belugas>etc etc etc
09:25<@petern>who what?
09:26<@Belugas>in other words, mind our own businesses and stop breaking all hell because of the neightbours's actions
09:26<@Belugas>Hello Peter :D
09:26<@petern>and say no to prop 8!
09:27<@petern>quite why someone decided that it should even exist is boggling
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>"prop 8"... is that some newgrfism? :p
09:28<dih>yes - devides into 'us' and 'them' :-D
09:30<@Belugas>as in dih
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09:38<@Belugas>Dalestan has a lot of problems whit his connection today. Internet must be overcrowded with messages and all in the US ^_^
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09:41<@petern>either the bbc is slow, or missouri and north carolina are doing a recount
09:41<Sacro>petern: recount i guess
09:41<@petern>or they've decided they can't be bothered :)
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>north carolina is the new florida? :p
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10:20<@Belugas>why does it always has to taste THAT bad? Why can't they device medecine that is AT LEASTE tasteless??
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10:23<konto>why my coal mines produces less than 200 tons of coal after many years?
10:23<planetmaker>you don't service them well?
10:23<planetmaker>and define "many years".
10:24<konto>50 years
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10:24<planetmaker>and your station ratings?
10:24<dih>yeah - i expect my mines to produce at least 350 tones a month
10:24<dih>what a bug
10:24<dih>ottd should fix it
10:24<konto>there is always one waiting train for coal
10:24<dih>that was not the question ;-)
10:25<planetmaker>important is also that the service is somewhat sufficiently frequent.
10:25<konto>planetmaker: forests produces less than 200 tons of woods too... its no only coal mines
10:25<dih>+ if you have very long trains and dont get to transport stuff every month the industry produces less
10:25<planetmaker>Permanent loading with a 100-tile train won't help you.
10:25<konto>planetmaker: hm... so more shors trains?
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10:25<dih>konto: if it's not just coal then it's definately the network manager
10:25<planetmaker>yes. Give it a try.
10:26<planetmaker>dih: you're nasty :P While in 99% the error is in front of the screen... :P for politeness reason we should not say so :P
10:27<dih>you are right
10:27<dih>konto: i think openttd has a bug and does not always like it's transport manager's network, therefore there is a hardcoded limit to stop good managers :-D
10:27<dih>(better?) :-P
10:27<dih>konto: just kidding
10:27<planetmaker>first assumption must be a hacker who modified your binary in a malicious way.
10:27<dih>of course
10:28<planetmaker>konto: sorry. funny mood :P
10:28<planetmaker>normally we're really nice and friendly :)
10:28<dih>konto: if you have a train waiting all the time, but the train is very long, is quite unimportant - the station rating is the more importnat factor there ;-)
10:29<dih>you can read up a lot on that stuff at
10:29<planetmaker>^^ good hint
10:29<dih>and we really are a nice bunch of people
10:29<dih>^^ also a good hint
10:29*dih has 30 mins left to his work day
10:30*planetmaker has another 2h...
10:30<dih>but for that i started earlier
10:30<planetmaker>:P I started at 10h though :)
10:30<dih>8 am here
10:31<konto>dih: yeah... but rating are very well, more than 80%
10:31<dih>and what does the industry say about transported estimate
10:31<dih>(also an important factor)
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> normally we're really nice and friendly :) <-- err... have you any proof of that?
10:44<planetmaker>no. I just liked to make a statement which is according to Goedel not proof-able :P
10:44<planetmaker>this comminity certainly is sufficiently complex.
10:45<dih>it is proofable
10:45<dih>read the logs at :-P
10:46<planetmaker>I knew it's written different :) Thx
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10:53<dih>well done planetmaker - i thought it was not correct but also thought you'd know :-D
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11:04<Dr_Jekyll>is there a vehicle set wich contains ships to carry fish? i don't want to build railway stations to the middle of the ocean...
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11:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, Gödel said there _exist_ statments which are not provable, not that _any_ statement is not provable :p
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>you still have to prove that the statement is not provable :p
11:08<planetmaker>axiom: there's no such thing as "normal" :P
11:09<planetmaker>--> any statement containing "normal" is not provable.
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>right, that is at least sufficient plausability ;)
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12:12<nicfer>one question, where are the servers that use nightly builds of openttd?
12:13<nicfer>I've find them
12:13<nicfer>they were in the middle
12:13<nicfer> weird version
12:14<+glx>custom build
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12:15<nicfer>aren't manual builds named differently?
12:15<Aali>you can name your build whatever you want
12:19<nicfer>I've tried to run openttd from a usb flash drive, but when I've connected to a server, it hang up
12:20<nicfer>could this be happening due to the drive's low write speed?
12:20<@petern> is funny
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12:24<frosch123>what's funny? boring.
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12:26<+glx>nicfer: when you join a server you download the savegame
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12:42<@petern>fair enough
12:42<@petern>i'm going home
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12:44<Belugas_Gone>hellooo again
12:44<Belugas_Gone>my alter ego is on an unreachable pc right now :(
12:45<Belugas_Gone>nice song indeed...
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 05 13:03:15 2008
---Logopened Wed Nov 05 13:03:20 2008
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13:03-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 95 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 3 voices, 87 normal]
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13:23<nicfer>has been suggested fences for roads?
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13:27<Aali>people already hate the railroad fences
13:28<Aali>and i dont see how that would be useful, you can use other peoples roads
13:28<Aali>so it doesn't really matter who owns it
13:28<nicfer>hmmm... easier to know who owns the roadtrack?
13:28<Belugas_Gone>has been suggested. has not been received with great enthusiasm
13:29<Belugas_Gone>has not been done
13:29<Aali>just use the land area information tool or look at the worldmap if you really want to know
13:36<frosch123>Belugas_Gone: But you have to admit, that it is not realistic :)
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13:41<Belugas_Gone>ho ho ho :)
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15:52<squid0>hi there. I'm installing the ubuntu package; do I still need to get hold of the original Microprose binaries to play?
15:52<Aali>you never needed the binaries
15:52<Aali>you need the data files
15:53<Aali>grfs and
15:53<squid0>Aali: oh ok. so where can I get those from?
15:53<Aali>from your original TTD media
15:54<squid0>and if I don't have that?
15:54<Aali>then you can't play
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16:04<benjamingoodger>another satisfied customer
16:11*davis- gn
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16:15<Prof_Frink>Pfft, you should at least have hinted at 3407
16:16<benjamingoodger>revision that doesn't require microprose stuff?
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16:28<benjamingoodger>ho hum
16:29<benjamingoodger>I personally would have linked to orudge's site had I been here, no need to mess about with the wiki...
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16:35*orudge pokes Prof_Frink
16:35*Prof_Frink is poked
16:35<@orudge>are you /ignoring all of #tycoon or somesuch, perhaps? you have been quite quiet as of late, but are apparently alive here :o
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16:38<benjamingoodger>hey orudge, how's you this year?
16:38<@orudge>Not too bad
16:38<@orudge>busy, as usual
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18:31<Aali>what do i have to do to make ottd see my scripts?
18:31<Aali>i put the file in scripts/
18:31<Aali>but exec can't find it
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18:34<Aali>ls in scripts/ says its completely empty
18:35<Aali>renaming it to .sav works, but thats not how you're supposed to do it, right? :P
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18:47<Aali>oh, exec always reads files from the openttd dir
18:47<Aali>thats.. annoying
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18:59<SpComb>OpenTTD's path handling :(
18:59*SpComb just disses everything
19:00<benjamingoodger>well, yeah
19:00<benjamingoodger>nineteen ninety four ftw
19:05<@Belugas>not always. but i guess its the case with scripts indeed
19:05<@Belugas>what's wrong with that?
19:06<benjamingoodger>well, it's pretty maddening that it only reads /usr/share/games/openttd/data and ignores ./.openttd/data
19:06<benjamingoodger>because then I have to get root in order to install grfs
19:06<Aali>you must be doing something wrong, then
19:06<Aali>i have all my grfs in my user dir
19:07<Aali>and cfg and saves per installation
19:07<@Belugas>ho... under Linux... can't tell you, i'm on the Windows side of the cpu
19:07<Aali>always worked flawlessly
19:07<benjamingoodger>it reads cfg and saves fine
19:08<benjamingoodger>just not data
19:08<Aali>what files did you put in there?
19:08<Aali>i only keep ottd's own file in the install dir
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19:09<benjamingoodger>put where?
19:09<Aali>as in, open*.grf and orig* go in data/ per install, the rest goes in data/ in my user dir
19:10<benjamingoodger>that doesn't seem to work
19:10<benjamingoodger>it only works if they are put in data/-per-install
19:10<Aali>where's your config file?
19:11<benjamingoodger>the grfs are in /usr/share..... though
19:11<Aali>try moving it to install dir
19:11<Aali>or copying
19:11<Aali>because i never use the cfg i have in my user dir, i keep them per-install
19:12<benjamingoodger>hmm, very well
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19:40<Char>looking at the landscape generators available
19:41<Char>i feel tempted to make my own one ;)
19:41<Aali>you always say hmm before asking a question
19:41<Aali>that was more of a statement though :P
19:42<Aali>and, are you talking about heightmap generators or the actual landscape generators in ottd?
19:43<@Belugas>what more will you bring in?
19:43<@Belugas>not will
19:43<Char>the original one just simply sucks
19:43<Char>and the new one
19:44<Char>i like mountainous landscapes
19:44<Char>but the one it generates
19:44<Char>if you set it to "very smooth" it is horrible
19:44<Char>if you set it to "rough" it is equally horrible
19:45<Char>and the landscapes look so... unreal
19:45<Char>non-creative :P
19:45<Char>i would like to have more options
19:45<Char>but i might be alone there
19:45<benjamingoodger>I find the non-smooth isn't smooth enough
19:45<@Belugas>if you're gopod enough to write your own, would n't it be easier to simply fix the current one?
19:45<SmatZ>[01:43:44] <Char> the original one just simply sucks <== don't hurt anyone's feelings :-P
19:45<benjamingoodger>very-smooth rather
19:45<benjamingoodger>the trouble is that the scales are all screwed up
19:45<@Belugas>ho... and "sucks" <--- so freakingly descriptive :P
19:46<benjamingoodger>we have towns within six tiles of each other
19:46<Char>problem is also that you cannot have really high mountains
19:46<@Belugas>the scales are not screwed, ben. they are what they are.
19:46<benjamingoodger>I forget what size the tiles are, but I think it's about 12m
19:46<@Belugas>it's irrelevant
19:46<Aali>1 tile is 1 tile
19:46<@Belugas>it's the size they are, that's it
19:46<Char>if you calculate with train speeds, they are about 800km
19:46<@Belugas>yeah :)
19:47<benjamingoodger>obviously, having a town 60m away from another town is improper
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>my problem with scales is that there are not enough height levels
19:47<Char>would it be possible to add more height levels?
19:47<Aali>wasn't there a patch for 127 height levels?
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>you can't have cool mountain ranges
19:47<Aali>but that probably butchered the map array
19:47<Aali>and will not go into trunk this century
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>adding height levels is not too difficult
19:48<SmatZ>it depends...
19:48<SmatZ>at many places there is "byte" for z coordinate
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>but "byte" would be 256, not 16, like currently
19:48<SmatZ>also, have fun rewriting the drawing routines not to be glitchy or slow
19:49<Aali>oh, right, tiles only define one height, not 4 corners
19:49<Aali>my bad
19:49<SmatZ> TILE_HEIGHT = 8, ///< The standard height-difference between tiles on two levels is 8 (z-diff 8)
19:50<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: ^^^ 8 * 127 > 256
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, even if you had more height levels, you still need cliffs for proper mountains
19:50<SmatZ>with cliffs, you need really different approach to drawing
19:50<benjamingoodger>the idea that something should drop 50 metres, pm 0, is silly
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm, right, SmatZ... forgot about that
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, not necessarily cliffs, but more height levels for one slope tile
19:51<Char>even if the difference is 8
19:51<Char>8*32 = 256
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19:51<Char>which would allow for 32 height levels
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and then check wether all bit-packing places have that additional bit free
19:52<SmatZ>also it would be unpleasant if any tile was completely hidden behind another
19:52<SmatZ>you couldn't build anything there (from user interface)
19:52<SmatZ>or you would have to be able to rotate the map...
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>just implement a rotatable map :p
19:53<benjamingoodger>good night
19:53<SmatZ>nn ben
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19:55<Char>i will go for the current map generator for now ;)
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>if you are really going to implement a new terrain generator, look at other games that create maps, for example there is a "tectonics" map generator for civ4 that tries to simulate earth like maps by moving small and big plates against each other and generating mountains and oceans like that
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>what often disturbs me about TGP landscapes is that they are too regular. there is not one hilly area and one flat area. there are only more or less smooth hills
20:05<Char>i will have to see how much effort it would realistically be to build a map generator
20:05<Char>the idea is tempting
20:06<Char>another question
20:06<Char>conditional orders is a GRF>
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>conditional orders are in trunk builds (nightlies)
20:06<Char>and how do i give them?
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>they are slightly hidden in the order window ;)
20:07<Char>forum search is down
20:07<Char>but google helps :P
20:12<Char>but it doesnt work
20:12<Char>i can not set the conditional order jumps it seems
20:12<Char>or maybe i am just too stupid
20:13<Char>now it works
20:13<Char>doesnt give me the options i was looking for, though ;)
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20:15<Char>actually i found out that it is possible to make the game really hard
20:15<Aali>there's a patch called more conditional orders
20:15<Aali>it has the things you really wanted from cond. orders
20:18<Aali>because, honestly, the things you can do with cond. orders in the nightlies is hardly, if ever useful
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20:18<thingwath>Eddi|zuHause: how large is, say, 256x256 openttd map supposed to be in 'real life'?
20:19<Aali>openttd isn't supposed to be in real life
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of a question is that?
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>i should refer you to Belugas ;)
20:19<thingwath>speaking about map generators
20:19<@Rubidium>anywhere between a few hundred meters and a few hundred kilometers
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20:20<AgentLeMan>2048 tiles at a tile size of 50 m would make a 102km * 102km page.
20:20<Char>with trains needing ~ 1 year to get from one side to the other
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can reasonably well display the earth on a 2048x1024 map, or the netherlands on a 2048x2048 map
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>with totally different scales
20:22<AgentLeMan>thingwath, 256*256 tiles= 327,680 m² i think
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20:23<AgentLeMan>earth = 510,072,000 km²
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20:23<@Rubidium>thingwath, more precisely: a tile is between ~10 meters and ~700 km
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>but i fail to see the relevance for a map generator
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20:25<@Rubidium>or make a bitmask of the "types" that it could be returning
20:25<@Rubidium>stupid lag :(
20:25<@Rubidium>the relevance to the map generator is that there is no answer for the question how large a tile is
20:26<Char>DB Set XL doesnt work in tropic climate ?!?
20:27<Char>Rubidium: do i need to know?
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>no, DBSetXL only works in temperate
20:28<Char>i would put a tile at ~ 100m with 50m height difference between height levels, giving hills up to 400m high
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>or in arctic, when the alpine climate is loaded
20:28<Char>is there a reason for that?
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>if that is meant technically, check for action 7/9 and action B, if you mean philosophically, talk to the author
20:31<AgentLeMan>can the titlemenu be moved, so we can use customized titlescenarios and have a better view at the center?
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20:33<thingwath>say I want to build ingame railway network which would at least resemble some real network
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20:36<AgentLeMan>ah, interesting......
20:41<thingwath>so there are some constants, like how many passengers there are in cities
20:42<Char>my RV is going crazy
20:42<Char>it switches between the two orders i gave it about 100 times per second
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20:48<Char>and i dont get why that is
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20:48<Char>looks like a serious bug to me
20:48<Aali>no, you just built the wrong kind of station
20:48-!-stillunknown [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:48<Char>how do i know which kind of station is the right one?
20:48<Aali>articulated vehicles need drive-thruogh road stops
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>Char: articulated RV cannot use terminal stations
20:48<AgentLeMan>so, it is not a bug, but a cheat, aali? ;o)
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's a missing feature
20:48<rubyruy>it's a BONUS feature
20:48<thingwath>like trams not having terminal stations at all?
20:48<Aali>terminal stations make no sense for trams
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>that's only loosely related
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20:49<Eddi|zuHause>the original road stations make no sense at all
20:49<AgentLeMan>how possible it is to built doublerailstracks for trains?
20:49<rubyruy>well surely a tool could be made that builds 2 tracks on 2 squares
20:49<thingwath>it does make sense to build tram station without loop
20:49<AgentLeMan>because of the pathfinding? i mean... for busses it works
20:50<thingwath>and sometimes I would like to do that
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>pathfinding is the least of the problems
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>pathfinding should actually be really easy
20:50<Aali>thingwath: DRST + half-tile
20:50<Aali>and you're done
20:51<thingwath>when there is no space for that half-tile, then what? :-)
20:51<Aali>then you make space and quit whining :P
20:52<AgentLeMan>°steps aside as thingwath, the mad bomber, lays waste to half the city° ;o)
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: you cannot place half tiles on sloped roads
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>neither can you put the tram stop on that slope
20:53<Aali>I don't care
20:53<rubyruy>thingwath: it's probably less of an issue when you use the "allow road stations on top of town owned streets" patch/setting/whatever-it-is
20:54<thingwath>slopes are usually the problem
20:54<AgentLeMan>im having trouble with my feederservice, has anyone time to listen and maybe help?
20:54<Char>terminus stations do make sense for trams
20:54<Char>there is one just 100m away from here in reallife
20:55<AgentLeMan>Char :o) since when makes Real Life (TM) sense always °winks°
20:55<Aali>Char: does it have two bays where trams can move around pretty much however they want? :P
20:55<AgentLeMan>but i actually almost always built T-Stations
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>a) different kinds of tram stations will be possible when newgrf_ports gets finished
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>b) terminal stations for trams that are not loops need trams that can go backwards
20:57<rubyruy>what is newgrf_ports ?
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>airports that can be defined by newgrfs
20:57<rubyruy>oh nice
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>later to be extended to seaports and road stations
20:58<rubyruy>that means i could have my ginormous airports when it's done? :D
20:58<thingwath>b would be just a little inaccuracy, there are soo many of them already :-)
20:58<AgentLeMan>why is building a heliport totally screwing the system? i mean, build one and you get MASSES of passengers, which you just cant get rid of ( except you use trains )
20:59<AgentLeMan>it as if they offer bunjee-jumping out of those helicopters
20:59<Aali>AgentLeMan: because passangers don't care what they're boarding? they just want to go *somewhere*, they don't care how it's done
21:00<Aali>the cargodest branch aims to solve these problems
21:00<AgentLeMan>Aali, yes, but... it isnt the case with other stations, i experienced enourmously high growth at such heliports, regarding passangers
21:01<AgentLeMan>as if the growth-mechanism thinks, not helis come to that station but oceanliners
21:01<Aali>there is no growth-mechanism
21:02<Aali>houses in catchment area generate passengers and these are then distributed to stations after ratings
21:02<thingwath>and with larger cities, there is absolutely no way to transport them all :-)
21:03<Aali>if your heliport covers alot of houses or has high ratings, its going to get ALOT of passengers
21:03<Aali>there's even a patch to reduce passenger generation because it gets out of hand as cities grow
21:04<@Belugas>therefor, if you heliport is so crowded, it's because you placed it at the wrong place!
21:05<Aali>you mean the right place :P
21:05<Aali>having cargo to transport is good
21:05<Char>btw, is it just the inevitable truth that RVs are stupid?
21:06<@Belugas>no they are not stupid
21:06<@Belugas>because they do not have a soul
21:06<AgentLeMan>having SO much cargo that youcant ever get rid of it, thus getting a bad rating is bad ;o)
21:06<@Belugas>they are just numbers been crunched by the cpu!
21:06<Aali>Char: they're "simple"
21:06<Aali>they are stupid if you use go via orders though
21:07<Aali>AgentLeMan: bad rating = less cargo, if its still too much, what have you got to lose?
21:07<@Belugas>so all in all, stupidity and ignorance are walking side by side
21:08<Aali>*cough*someone should fix FS#2397*cough*
21:09<Char>cause they seem unable to properly use a multi-bay loading area
21:09<Char>or unloading, for that matter
21:09<thingwath>sometimes, I would be happier, if there were no pathfinding, just list of tiles :o)
21:10<Aali>thingwath: maybe you should implement it in ttdpatch
21:10<Aali>they tend to like insane stuff
21:11<@Belugas>2397? that patch with an insanely long one liner??
21:11<thingwath>I don't think it's insane
21:11<Aali>Belugas: indeed
21:11<@Belugas>hell if i do
21:12<Aali>its like 3 lines in a standard terminal, heh
21:12<Char>64x64 map :P
21:12<Char>kinda cool
21:12<Char>got all industries connected, though
21:12<@Belugas>the code may be right (can't judge), but the style sucks (love using it now) and there is no comments as for what the additions are for
21:14<Aali>it fits right in with the old code
21:14<Aali>"update destination" for that whole if statement
21:14<@Belugas>and old code may not be a reference
21:15<Aali>i'm not saying it is
21:15<@Belugas>in fact, the oldest the code, less likely it is a reference of style
21:15<Aali>and i'm not saying you should just apply patch as it is
21:15<Aali>AND, i'm not even sure the code is right (i.e. doesn't screw up anything else)
21:17<@Belugas>well... i've never been too good about vehicles, so it's a bit hard for me to judge too
21:18<Aali>no rush, really
21:19<Aali>just thought i should mention it while we were on the subject
21:19<@Belugas>you've included the condition "!(this->current_order.GetNonStopType() & ONSF_NO_STOP_AT_DESTINATION_STATION)"
21:19<@Belugas>tell me more about it, please
21:20<Aali>like the flyspray entry says, that checks if the current order is a go via order
21:20<Aali>if the vehicle isn't going to stop at the station, there's no point in reserving a slot
21:21<Aali>because it doesn't try to clear the slot when it does reach it
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21:22<AgentLeMan>alright, there seems to be something weird about that heliport....
21:23<Aali>the normal "arrived at station" code doesn't "see" the go via station, because it only handles vehicles that actually stop
21:23<@Belugas>i see...
21:24<Aali>one side effect would of course be that RVs will no longer try to go to a "free" slot for go via orders
21:24<AgentLeMan>after 1 year at a 25000 peoplecity, a heliport has 1800 passangers, a busstation 1000 and a trainstation also 1000 ( roughly) all stations are tested solely, all being 1 tile big.
21:24<Aali>but once again, they're not stopping, so it makes no difference
21:25<AgentLeMan>so there must be "something" different at a heliport, that draws so much people to it
21:27<@Belugas>what bugs me is that fact that the code is located in the OnNewDay function
21:28<Aali>thats where RV queueing happens, apparently
21:29<AgentLeMan>hm, about the ratings, is it normal they go down at 2050?
21:31<Aali>I wonder if that causes trouble with daylength patch
21:32<@Belugas>least of my concerns
21:32<Aali>i've never used it, so i wouldn't know
21:33<@Belugas>so, in fact, it only clears one tiny bit of a problem, but the queuing is still there for the others
21:33<@Belugas>it's only when using the station as a waypoint that it acts like that
21:33<@Belugas>and that the fix comes in place
21:34<Aali>if there are no unexpected complications, yes
21:35<Aali>you could of course solve it the other way around, make queueing actually work for go via orders too
21:35<Aali>but it seems like a lot of work for such a small thing
21:35<AgentLeMan>'specially for roadvehicles
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21:40<@Belugas>got to go to sleep
21:40<@Belugas>i'll try to have a talk with the others about it
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21:40<AgentLeMan>goodnight belu...gas
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21:41<AgentLeMan>°waves° bye then
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23:31<ln->goooooood moooorrniiiiing
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 06 00:00:07 2008