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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-01

---Logopened Mon Dec 01 00:00:39 2008
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03:50<Terkhen>good morning
04:02<planetmaker>good morning
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05:50<dihedral>any brasilian people here?
05:54<@Rubidium>that's pretty unlikely
05:55<Gekz>I hope not,
05:56<@Celestar>\o/ Finally a proper AMD 45nm Opteron benchmark
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06:01<Eddi|zuHause>assume i have a checkout of tags/a, and make modifications to it, how do i commit that directly as tags/b, without modifying a?
06:02<@Celestar>why some server manufacturers deliver a 700W supper supply with server that has a peak consumption of 270W is beyond me
06:02<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: does tags/b already exist?
06:03<@Rubidium>svn co tags/, (wait a few secs), abort halfway (though newer svns allow you just checkout tags without any of it's children
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: maybe you should run 3 servers in parallel ;)
06:03<@Rubidium>then svn cp a b, apply patch to b, commit b
06:04<@Rubidium>Celestar: maybe because it has a higher peak efficiency?
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06:07<@Celestar>Rubidium: normally, PSUs have their peak efficiency in the 45-70% load range
06:08<@Celestar>and drop considerably below 25%
06:08<@Celestar>how the system idles at around 140W, which is about 20%
06:09<@petern>Celestar: "more is better" is how it's seen a
06:09<@Celestar>I think they just put it in there because the Intel Xeon (Extreme) Version pulls up to 400W
06:09<@Celestar>"one size fits all"
06:09<@petern>well there you go
06:09<@petern>plus a drive array...
06:10<@petern>that's what, another 100W?
06:10<@Celestar>er ...
06:10<@Celestar>a 100W drive array in a 1U case? how? :P
06:11<@petern>you didn't mention 1U
06:11<@Rubidium>Celestar: it makes me think of the Dutch energy label: Audi A5 more efficient than a Dodge Avenger which is more efficient than a Fiat 500 (all new cars)
06:11<mrfrenzy>a modern psu should have decent efficiency from 10-100%
06:11<@petern>100%? haha
06:11<@Celestar>petern: sorry :P
06:11<@Celestar>mrfrenzy: at 100% load, the efficiency usually drops as well
06:11<@Celestar>but not as badly as in the low area
06:11<mrfrenzy>petern: yes, any good brand psu will work upto 100%
06:11<@petern>oh, 100% load, not 100% efficiency
06:11<mrfrenzy>cheap crap will burn at around 70% usage
06:12<@petern>my home PC a seasonic 500W PSU
06:12<@petern>and a Q6600
06:12<@Celestar>which is really horrible, since a decent PC today idles at around 40-50W
06:12<@petern>and an 8800GT
06:12<@petern>i dunno what that idles at
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06:12<mrfrenzy>I have exactly the same cpu and gfx
06:12<@Celestar>decent as in for office and occiasional gaming PC (E7200, 4GBRAM, P45 Mainboard, AMD 4670 GPU)
06:12<mrfrenzy>however I don't have any decent energy meter
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>anybody know if amarok 2 is usable yet?
06:13<thingwath>It is. Somehow.
06:13<mrfrenzy>the cheap plugin-types are horribly wrong on switched loads
06:13<@petern>otoh, i don't leave my pc on all the time
06:13<@petern>so it's not wasting power all night
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>useable as in i can switch from amarok 1.4.10 without losing any data or functionality?
06:14<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: _apparently_ (seems 11.1 will ship with amarok 2)
06:14<thingwath>Eddi|zuHause: No :-)
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: that does not mean anything ;)
06:14<@Celestar>RC1 comes with 2.0 beta 1
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06:15<@Celestar>2.0 RC1
06:15<thingwath>I have 1.94 in Fedora 10, it works well, but...
06:15<@petern>i want servers with low power cpus
06:15<@petern>but virtualization is all the rage these days
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>some time i need a low power home server for file storage and some web stuff...
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06:16<@petern>Eddi|zuHause, not even home server
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>preferably one where i can stick my DVB-S card in, for TV recording
06:17<@petern>i need things like servers that relays a couple of hundred emails day
06:17<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I'm planning one of those
06:17<thingwath>Decent power management could solve it.
06:17<thingwath>Home server can sleep (as in suspend to RAM) most of the time.
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>so i could have a PC for always-on-stuff and one where i really do stuff on
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06:18<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: suspend is not really usefull when you want to have web interfaces active
06:18<thingwath>It can wake up on each request.
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06:19<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't want suspend, i want a server that constantly does little things
06:19<@Celestar>AMD's new RVI tech in the Shanghai opterons really boost Virtualization
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06:19<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: then use something based on an ARM CPU or something (=
06:19<@petern>what's atom like for power?
06:19<@Celestar>petern: at idle, about same as a Core 2 Duo E7200.
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06:20<@petern>hmm, not that low power then
06:20<@Celestar>petern: at full load, about 30W below said Core 2 Duo.
06:20<@petern>in said email server sending a couple of hundred emails a day, full load is not often achieved
06:20<@Celestar>petern: you can get the Core 2 Duo system down to 29W without any special tricks (i.e. undervolting)
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>30W below 29W is... negative...
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>hey... i could sell that power :p
06:22<@Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: idle :P
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06:22<@Celestar>at load, said system is around 65W
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06:22<thingwath>Well, I guess most of home servers can stay sleeping for long minutes.
06:22<@Celestar>petern:,2069-11.html <= I goess you wanna look at this.
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: constantly as in having active connections all the time, not request based
06:23<@Celestar>how with undervolting and a good PSU, you could have that Core 2 Duo system at or near 25W
06:24<thingwath>Active connections? Like you have to receive or send something very often (each second or so)?
06:24<@petern>problem is buying a complete rack mounted system containing low power stuff :o
06:25<@Celestar>I'm also not sure whether they had an active CPU cooler on that one (which is around another Watt)
06:25<@Celestar>disabling unused SATA ports might help too
06:25<@petern>the cooler'll make the cpu need less power though
06:26<@petern>although a sufficiently large heatsink would do
06:26<@petern>cpus need more power when they're hot
06:26<@Celestar>any decent passive cooler can get the CPU to about 2K above room temerature (when idle)
06:26<@Celestar>and on a server, I'd possibly lock the CPU to its lowest frequency anyway
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06:26<@petern>ondemand scaling
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: yes, for exapmple IRC connections need ping? pong! events to stay alive
06:27<@petern>just in case there is a load spike...
06:27<@Celestar>or that.
06:27<@Celestar>but the default cpufreq governors raise the frequency too quickly imho (for server environments)
06:27<@Celestar>not that one cannot reconfigure that
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06:28<@Celestar>hm . the MSI P45 Diamond appears to use even less power than the Foxconn mentioned in the article above.
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06:29<thingwath>Eddi|zuHause: But the computer can still sleep for quite a long time (tens of seconds). If we had better hardware and OS (not that much better)...
06:29<@Celestar>one Watt cooler, one Watt CPU undervolt, two Watts other mainboard, one Watt better CPU...
06:29<@Celestar>5 Watts down already :P
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: how long do you still want to argue when i repeatedly said that this is not useful for me?
06:30<thingwath>indefinetly, because it COULD be useful for you :-)
06:30<thingwath>if someone made it work, finally
06:32<@Celestar>wake on any-IP-packet?
06:33<thingwath>It would be just even deeper C state of modern CPU :-)
06:33<thingwath>Point is that you don't necessarily need low power hardware, if you can turn it of for most of the time.
06:33<@Celestar>about 8W of the 29W needed are PSU losses ...
06:34<@Celestar>and you worry about which C state the CPU is in?
06:34<@petern>so we need 100% efficient PSUs
06:35<@petern>wait a second, i'll get one i've got stored in my hover car
06:35<@Celestar>you need a PSU efficient at 25-60 Watts
06:35<@Celestar>maybe a picoPSU would do the trick
06:36<thingwath>well, most of this stuff is for mobile devices with batteries, of course
06:36<@petern>how do you make its 12v supply efficient?
06:36<@petern>spread across multiple systems, maybe
06:37<@petern>hmm, 12v...
06:37<@petern>could probably have an efficient UPS too...
06:37<blathijs>Celestar: There is a user level cpufreq governor, so you can write any policy you want for that
06:38<mrfrenzy>12V supplies are not efficient, too much cable losses
06:38<@petern>chunky bus-bar type supply? heh
06:38<@petern>input current... 10A... ouch
06:38<@petern>well, up to
06:39<mrfrenzy>48V is more common
06:39<mrfrenzy>or for larger setups 320V dc
06:39<@Celestar>12V 10A would be 120 Watts :P
06:39<@Celestar>gotta get better cables then :P
06:39<@petern>yeah, that was max
06:40<@petern>hmm, 300W 12V ATX supply
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>10A? who the hell needs that kind of power?
06:41<thingwath>current, not power...
06:42<@Celestar>er .. let's see
06:43<@Celestar>a Xeon X5492 has a TDP of 150W
06:43<@Celestar>and around 1.1Volts
06:43<@Celestar>.. what's the amperage then? :P
06:43<@petern>about 136A, assuming it's all from the 1.1V, heh
06:43<@Celestar>some graphic cards pull around one hundred Amps as well
06:43<@Celestar>petern: yeah, but over 100A happen in CPUs
06:44<@Celestar>petern: there's a reason for all those pins :P
06:44<@Celestar>about 50% are power supply
06:45<@Celestar>hm .
06:46<@Celestar>3 Amps of a decent copper cable of 0.5m in length shouldn't give much losses.
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07:02<@Celestar>dang. my e-mail archive is 700MB :P
07:04<@petern>is that all?
07:08<@Celestar>I don'T keep the spams :P
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07:17<Eddi|zuHause>mine is 630MB
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07:43<FauxFaux>Most mailing lists get more traffic per month than I've recieved non-spam e-mail in the last five years. :/
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08:15<DASPRiD>FauxFaux, thats usual ;>
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12:28<Ammler>Signal completation does now generate presignals?
12:28<Ammler>hehe, heya all
12:28<Ammler>just a question so to unsilent the channel
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12:29<Sacro_>Ammler, just because a sentance ends with a quesiton mark does not mean it's a sane question
12:29<@Celestar>heh. somehow closed the wrong terminal earlier :P
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12:30<Ammler>Sacro_: indeed. Sorry.
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12:30<benjamingoodger>however, that is a sane question
12:30<benjamingoodger>¬.¬ at least grammatically...
12:30<planetmaker>^^very much so...
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12:31<@petern>no it's not
12:31<Sacro_>nope, sounds like a statement to me
12:31<benjamingoodger>well, except for the word "completation"
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12:31<Sacro_>it has no who/what/where/how/why/when
12:31<planetmaker>depends upon where you raise your voice.
12:31<benjamingoodger>we don't actually need those to make it a question
12:31<benjamingoodger>see also, most european languages
12:31<Ammler>2. try: if you autocomplete signalling, which type does it use now? (with trunk)
12:32<Aali>autocomplete signaling?
12:32<planetmaker>the difference is whether you use a closed or an open question
12:32<Aali>as in ctrl-drag?
12:32<Ammler>Aali: yeah.
12:32<Aali>it will use whatever signal you dragged from
12:32<Aali>its been like that forever
12:32<benjamingoodger>well, sticking a question mark on the end of a sentence makes it a yes/no closed question, I suppose...
12:33<Ammler>hmm, try to drag&drop a presignal
12:33<planetmaker>Aali: not really :)
12:34<planetmaker>I know times where it changed to a normal signal.
12:34<Ammler>which makes sense.
12:34<planetmaker>I think peter fixed that somewhen (1, 2 months ago)
12:34<planetmaker>he, yes, Ammler :)
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12:39<Ammler>with 602, it works a little strange
12:40<Ammler>how do you drag&drop presignals?
12:43<Ammler>planetmaker: it does change to normal singals now
12:44<Ammler>or was the change recently?
12:44<planetmaker>semi recently
12:44<planetmaker>some fix
12:45<Ammler>nah, I just tried with trunk
12:45<Ammler>so is that wanted?
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12:46<planetmaker>you don't want to drag pre-signals anyway, do you?
12:46<Ammler>if you used ctrl, it changed to normal but not on drag&drop
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12:47<Ammler>now, also the "starting" signal does change
12:47<planetmaker>yes. That was different before IMO.
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12:48<Ammler>well, those people who play currently doesn't miss it, it seems.
12:49<Ammler>how do you guys build networks?
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13:18<Ammler>Do you agree, that auto signalling shouldn't change the first signal? Or is that also intended?
13:24<@Belugas>it is intended that i have no opinion on da matter
13:25<frosch123>both "no"
13:25<frosch123>err, no, I mean: auto signalcompletion does not change the first signal
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14647 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt hungarian.txt spanish.txt unfinished/malay.txt):
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-01 18:28:38
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 160 changed by knovak (160)
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changed by oklmernok (2)
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: malay - 20 fixed by SeaGates (20)
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 fixed by eusebio (1)
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13:32<Ammler>frosch123: so if it does, it is a bug?
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13:34<frosch123>Ammler: works for me
13:34<Ammler>but only if the 1. signal is a normal one or pbs.
13:34<Ammler>try with presignal
13:35<frosch123>ok, but who wants to do that?
13:35<Ammler>it works quite well with 0.6.3 btw.
13:36<Ammler>so I guess, it broke with the "pbs signalling" update
13:36<planetmaker>frosch: that's quite common for my building style: first station entry. Then track to station.
13:36<planetmaker>First signal of station entry is... a pre-signal :)
13:37<Ammler>or exit
13:37<planetmaker>then it's a station exit ;)
13:37<Ammler>I mean exit signal
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13:38<Ammler>you don't need it for entry signal, imo.
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13:39<Ammler>oh, the opposite direction of course :-)
13:39<Ammler>you set first the entry signal and auto signal back to the next junction
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13:41<Ammler>but current situation is now almost 4 month in trunk and nobody complained about.
13:44<Ammler>but what would it hurt, if you leave it like it was with 0.6?
13:44<frosch123>well, I remember a version (probably before 0.6.0) that created multiple pre signals :)
13:45<Ammler>hmm, I can't
13:45<Ammler>I thought, I built prios that way.
13:45<Ammler>maybe with 0.6
13:46<Ammler>cleaned my hd, no old revisions installed anymore...
13:47<@Belugas>[13:36] <Ammler> it works quite well with 0.6.3 btw. <--- good argument for stating it is a bug... hehe
13:48<Ammler>no, I was just wondering, if I remember wrong.
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13:48<Ammler>Didn't play much lately
13:48<@Celestar>Mesa going home \o/
13:50<@Celestar>goodbye :D
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13:50<@Belugas>playing? watzdat?
13:50<Ammler>Belugas: IMO, there is no need to change "gameplay" there, as you can still auto signal with normal signals
13:51<@Belugas>it is intended that i have no opinion on da matter
13:51<@Belugas>should I repeat ;)
13:51<frosch123>so Ammler: when you drag a one-way pbs signal, shall it create normal pbs signals?
13:51<Ammler>it is not a bug, just a "removed feature" ;-)
13:52<Ammler>frosch123: why do you need more then one pbs signal in a row?
13:53<planetmaker>frosch123: block signal drag = normal blog signal as result. PBS signal drag = PBS signal as drag, pbs one-way drag = pbs one-way drag.
13:53<frosch123>oh, it shall place normal signals?
13:53<Ammler>buh, I do not have real experience with pbs signals
13:53<planetmaker>frosch: normal signals, if block signals are dragged - irrespecitve of which block signal
13:53<frosch123>"PBS signal drag = PBS signal as drag" <- that is important though
13:53<Ammler>that is why I ask :-P
13:53<planetmaker>pbs: same type getting build
13:54<frosch123>well, you can also argue about combo signals
13:54<planetmaker>;P nasty
13:54<planetmaker>frosch123: that's the only thing...
13:54<planetmaker>but you don't need them so much.
13:54<Ammler>combo signals in a row are only for prios
13:54<Ammler>which is not need for ususal gameplay, imo.
13:55<planetmaker>main point though: if I drag an entry, the entry will be converted to a normal one right now.
13:55<Aali>how about, whichever signal you drag, you get copies of that?
13:55<Aali>i thought it was already like that
13:55<planetmaker>Aali: that exact behaviour was changed...
13:55<Aali>and it should be like that
13:55<Ammler>Aali: why do you need 2 entry singals in a row?
13:55<planetmaker>Aali: doesn't make sense for entry & exit
13:55<Aali>then dont drag entry & exit signals
13:56<Ammler>the whole discussion is about that :P
13:56<Aali>the option should still be there if for some reason you do want to drag entry&exit
13:56<Aali>why not?
13:56<Aali>its makes sense
13:57<Aali>its simple
13:57<Aali>easy to understand
13:57<Aali>damn cheap keyboard
13:57<Ammler>I see only need for prios.
13:57<Aali>i dont care about need
13:58<Ammler>then quit, pls.
13:59<Ammler>the current situation does value the "no need" for multiple presingals
13:59<Ammler>or how you call that :-)
13:59<Aali>and i dont like that
14:00<Aali>ottd shouldn't be telling me what i need or not need
14:01<Ammler>oh well.
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14:01<Ammler>then I prefer the current situation. :-)
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14:02<Aali>however, if someone were to implement a separate "autosignal" tool, feel free to go wild with assumptions about what the user needs :P
14:03<Ammler>well, I just wondering what that could be.
14:03<Aali>just dont limit my ability to copy all kinds of signals
14:03<Ammler>I told you one, have you a 2.?
14:03<Splex>true, drag copy should copy
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14:05<Splex>should be some way to make it easy for those who want to add normal signals after presignal while keeping consistent with the command function
14:05<frosch123>@openttd commit 14012
14:05<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by peter1138 :: r14012 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2008-08-07 07:48:57 UTC)
14:05<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Fix (r13936): Don't copy pre-signal type when dragging signals.
14:05<frosch123>someone had an oppinion about that :)
14:05<Ammler>frosch123: we know
14:05<Ammler>but it does not just not copy
14:05<Ammler>it does also convert the 1. signal
14:06<@Rubidium>Ammler: would you be so kind to not mix English and German in a sentence?
14:10<planetmaker>frosch123: but if I drag a pre-signal, the signal type of the signal I drag is reverted to normal.
14:10<Ammler>well, the commit does more than fix copy pre-signal
14:10<planetmaker>Ammler: no
14:10<Ammler>it does also convert singals
14:10<planetmaker>well. of that single one which you drag.
14:13<Sacro>I don't want to copy pre/pbs signals
14:13<Ammler>Sacro: me too.
14:13<Sacro>pre/pbs (controlled) signals should only be at junctions
14:14<Aali>then dont copy your pre/pbs signals
14:14<frosch123> <- is that to everyone's liking?
14:15<Aali>dont ruin the fun for the rest of us
14:16<Sacro>Aali, why would you ever need to copy pre/pbs?
14:16<Ammler>Sacro: he can't answer
14:16<Ammler>he just don't like it
14:16<frosch123>btw. did ever someone tested odd signal densities?
14:17<@Rubidium>frosch123: I fear the next bugreport will be like: I wanted to replace that signal and all ones following it, but now it isn't replaced anymore
14:17<Ammler>Rubidium: and why?
14:18<frosch123>you cannot replace with autocomplete, or what do you mean?
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14:18<Ammler>why should auto signalling also convert signals?
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14:18<Aali>which is part of the reason why it shouldn't change the type of the signal
14:19<@Rubidium>Ammler: because people might want to upgrade from semaphores to light signals (or whatever's the proper english term for them)?
14:19<Aali>its confusing, there will always be someone who doesn't get what he expects
14:20<Ammler>Aali: semaphores works like you want :-)
14:20<Aali>if all copying only made copies of the signal you clicked on, that would not be a problem
14:21<Aali>heh, i should start using semaphores then
14:21<nicfer>@seen Zephyris
14:21<@DorpsGek>nicfer: Zephyris was last seen in #openttd 10 weeks, 2 days, 23 hours, 33 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Zephyris> and header and footer
14:21<Aali>on the other hand, i'll problably just make a patch for light signals
14:21<Ammler>no doesn't
14:21<Ammler>I used pbs :P
14:22<Ammler>maybe better would be if you can't use auto signalling for presignals at all.
14:22<Aali>how is that better?
14:23<nicfer>@seen RichK67
14:23<@DorpsGek>nicfer: RichK67 was last seen in #openttd 32 weeks, 2 days, 21 hours, 57 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <RichK67> gn
14:23<Aali>you're still removing functionality
14:23<Ammler>then you build first normal signal -> auto signal -> convert to presignal
14:23<Aali>and what if you want more than one presignal?
14:23<Ammler>but now you build presignal -> auto signal -> convert again to presignal
14:24<Ammler>Aali: please.
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14:24<Aali>now you build presignal, build regular signal, then auto signal
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14:24<Aali>its not hard
14:24<Aali>building a long stretch of presignals however is a real hassle
14:25<Splex>build regular signal, then change the first signal to presignal
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14:26<Aali>Splex: if you're okay with signalling the line while you're working on the station entrance or whatever, yes
14:28<Splex>aali: im supporting what you are saying... for those who want to have normal signals after a presignal... just copy normal signals and then change the first to presignal... i agree that the tool should 'autofill' whatever signal you choose, without assuming how the user will build.
14:28<Aali>I like to finish the entire station before moving on to signal the line
14:28<Aali>yeah, I got that
14:28<Splex>someone could come up with a reason to copy presignals every nth space...
14:29<Ammler>your solution is better than trunk, but not better than 0.6 :P
14:29<Splex>if it was 100 signals... i sure wouldn't want to do that task manually
14:31<Ammler>I am quite sure, peter didn't want to convert the first signal, either.
14:31<Aali>entry and exit probably dont need to be copied (but you should still be able to), but combo-signals are used in relatively large numbers in prios and other non-standard signal logic
14:33<Ammler>Aali: I installed 0.6 to check that, thought that you were able to drag&drop presignals in older revs
14:35<Ammler>but no idea, how far you need to go back.
14:40<frosch123>hmm, my patch breaks the non-autocomplete signal-dragging :s
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14:42<frosch123>though that was broken/inconsistent also before :s
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14:46<Ammler>frosch123: it woks here
14:46<Ammler>how does it break?
14:47<frosch123>it behaves differently depending on whether there are already signals on the start tile resp. the tiles you place the signals
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14:47<Ammler>oh indeed
14:47<Ammler>never used it that way
14:49<Ammler>a nice feature would be, if you drag and drop over existing signals, it should remove those and rebuild
14:50<frosch123>autocomplete signals works together with the bulldozer button, but it is dangerous :)
14:51<Ammler>now it does only replace those in the defined gap
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15:00*Belugas yawns
15:01*benjamingoodger yawns also, you bastard
15:02<frosch123>sadly you cannot tell Belugas "two hours left" these days, as it might be false :(
15:02<@Belugas>yup yup
15:02<@Belugas>i've already got something like 2 hours planned for todos at home
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15:03<@Belugas>for work at home... should I add
15:03<frosch123>work4work@home :)
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15:06<@Belugas>i'll remember
15:09<Prof_Frink>work@home? A distributed client for doing your job for you?
15:11<frosch123>Prof_Frink: It is closely related to work4work@home@phone@3am
15:14<@Belugas>got my friend Metallica - The Day That Never Comes to keep me on the edge
15:19*frosch123 wonders whether he shall try chrome. the music always stops when I open a grf2html output :s
15:20*frosch123 could also just open it with konqueror though
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15:26<SmatZ>good evening
15:26<mrfrenzy>morning SmatZ
15:26<frosch123>evening smatz :)
15:28<SmatZ>hello hello :)
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17:26<planetmaker>hm... unrelated question: does anyone have an older ? Around a year or two?
17:26<planetmaker>or can tell me where to retreive it? I don't want to install an old package... I just need that file.
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17:28<planetmaker>that doesn't host it.
17:28<@Rubidium>planetmaker: extract the debian stable package with
17:29<planetmaker>hm... yeah... I thought about that. Then I need to learn that :)
17:31<planetmaker>maybe I should teach my Suse to learn dpkg
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17:31<@Rubidium>or install alien and convert the .deb?
17:32<@Rubidium>or download the .rpm of a sufficiently old Suse?
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17:33<benjamingoodger>probably won't work, what with all the dependencies
17:33<Sacro_>check old ArchLinux
17:33<Sacro_>that uses .pkg.tar.gz
17:33<Sacro_>or slackware
17:33<Sacro_>that uses .tar.gz too
17:33<planetmaker>Rubidium: the old rpms are then likely to overwrite other files with older revisions...
17:34<@Rubidium>planetmaker: you can't tell it to extract it to a specific directory, e.g. /tmp like dpkg can?
17:35<planetmaker>hm... maybe, but I haven't found that so far.
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17:43<Wolf01>going to play:
17:44<benjamingoodger>so is my car
17:44<benjamingoodger>and my grandmother
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17:45<benjamingoodger>they both still run perfectly well...
17:45<benjamingoodger>as does that joke
17:49<planetmaker>Rubidium: indeed it works with a small detour :)
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17:59<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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18:16<Wolf01> lolz
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18:17<murr4y>oh crap :p
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18:18<Prof_Frink>Wolf01: Something like this:
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20:53*murr4y hides
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21:08<@Belugas>snap snap SNAP SNAP!!!
21:09*Belugas goes hiding on a deep dark hole called bedroom
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21:17<SmatZ>hello Belugas
21:17<SmatZ>bye Belugas
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21:40<mikegrb>gah, sorry
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 02 00:00:41 2008