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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-06

---Logopened Sat Dec 06 00:00:58 2008
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02:52<NoPride>hello everyone
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02:54<NoPride>hello alberth
02:54<NoPride>is it always theis quiet in here
02:54<Alberth>so early in the morning another person so much awake :)
02:54<Forked>it's 9am
02:55<NoPride>454pm where i am
02:55<NoPride>where are you
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02:55<Forked>the land of oil! (Norway)
02:55<NoPride><- australia
02:55<NoPride>the land of kangaroos
02:56<Alberth>anybody any experience with cargodest + transport of other cargo than passengers/mail?
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02:59<Alberth>I am figuring out how to lay tracks, stations, and trains to do this efficient
03:03<NoPride>im trying to work out my dedicated server
03:08<Brianetta>They're pretty easy
03:09<Brianetta>gtg, wife's getting up
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06:47<Terkhen>good morning
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07:05<Alberth>such fun, trying to compile an old openttd revision. Compile warnings all over the place, and even an error.
07:06<@Rubidium>back then it probably compiled fine with the back then latest gcc
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07:09<Alberth>did we already use g++ for 11353? (error was about a non-allowed 'static' storage class in a template specialization)
07:09<@Rubidium>yes, since somewhere 7500-ish everything's c++ and a few thousands revs before yapf got added
07:10<Alberth>a very long time ago thus :)
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07:43<SmatZ>Alberth: it's a gcc-4.3 specific bug
07:43<SmatZ>it compiles with no problem with older gcc
07:44<SmatZ>similiar, older revisions' ./configure fails with --with-ccache or --with-distcc with recent cut
07:44<SmatZ>and very old revisions fail to compile minilzo.c
07:44<mrfrenzy>this is not really a bug ;)
07:45<SmatZ>true :)
07:46<yorick>they released a new mingw-win32api today :)
07:46*yorick goes updating
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07:46<Alberth>SmatZ: fix was easy enough, I simply removed the storage class. I was just surprised to see all those warnings. Apparently compilers got better at recognizing smelly code.
07:51<SmatZ>Alberth: "all those warnings"? I think there weren't many, apart from this one just "mode might be clobbered by setjmp/longjmp" or so
07:51<SmatZ>and of course, gcc 4.2 added "-fstrict-overflow" as default compile parameter
07:52<SmatZ>so there are many warnings "assuming X + 1 > X at line blahblah" with older revision...
07:52<Alberth>SmatZ: a few 'for(...);' statements in a .h file
07:53<SmatZ>errr... gcc 4.4 gives warning about possible freeing static variable... I could find any way it could be freed though
07:53<SmatZ>Alberth: true, I forgot about it :)
07:53<SmatZ>if you find the way how it can be freed, then report it as a bug :)
07:53<Alberth>SmatZ: maybe at app shutdown?
07:54<SmatZ>Alberth: yeah, but I couldn't find any way how it can happen, because the pointer is soon overwritten by dynamically allocated memory
07:54<SmatZ>I think gcc does only static analysis
07:54<SmatZ>but I didn't spend much time trying to find the problem
07:55<Alberth>still using 4.3, so no freeing of static variables here :D
07:56<yorick>no 4.4 for windows released yet
07:56<SmatZ> this kind
07:56<SmatZ>yeah, it is gcc 4.4 alpha :)
07:56<SmatZ>nightly build :)
07:57<yorick>it is even 4.3 alpha-experimental-warning-dontuse here
07:57<yorick>works like a charm :)
07:57<SmatZ> my compilers :)
07:58<SmatZ>no 2.95 at this amd64 machine...
07:58<SmatZ>but I have one in my x86 chroot ;)
07:58<SmatZ> there
07:59<yorick>"gcc version 4.3.0 20080305 (alpha-testing) mingw-20080502 (GCC)" <-- full version name :p
08:00<@Rubidium>no fancy compilers?
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08:00<SmatZ>I had icc, but my 90days testing period ended long time ago
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08:02*Rubidium has i586-pc-msdosdjgpp 4.3.2 and sh-elf 3.4.6
08:04<@petern>i don't see dos in the download list :(
08:05<@Rubidium>neither is sh-elf
08:05<Gekz>I'm done.
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08:08<yorick>how do they expect me to configure and make bash?
08:15<Alberth>SmatZ: maybe you should add an assertion that you never free hdrEmpty
08:17<Alberth>it seems to rest entirely on filling the data fields with 0 (in the 5 minutes I spent looking at the code)
08:17<Gekz>petern: what was your previous name
08:22<yorick>his previous name was peter1138 ;)
08:26*yorick goes compiling 90MB of pure gnulibc
08:28<Alberth>yorick: ha, you finished assembling the hardware?
08:30<yorick>it can't build without a shell
08:30<yorick>and I can't build a shell without gnulibc
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08:31<SmatZ>heh @ Rubidium's DOS compilers :)
08:32<SmatZ>hello wise TrueBrain
08:33<TrueBrain>hello smart SmatZ :)
---Logclosed Sat Dec 06 08:41:06 2008
---Logopened Sat Dec 06 08:41:12 2008
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09:13<Fantasya>evening star
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10:49<Aali>I have a very annoying problem with your filter sign list patch
10:49<Aali>Any and all new windows steal focus from the console
10:50<Zuu>Hmm, that is indeed annoying
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10:50<Zuu>Possible because the console is not a text edit widget.
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10:50<Zuu>So there are special cases for it to work. Probably there is no special case in open window code that checks if console is open or not.
10:51<Aali>That's what I figured.
10:51<Aali>However, others claim to not have this issue with the same version of the patch.
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10:54<Zuu>I was just thinking about scrap the focus stuff, well the patch will be on flyspray if anyone want to work on it. But instead use a query window, to make the patch much more simple and possible even able to reach trunk.
10:55<Aali>The widget focus patch is great though :/
10:55<Zuu>Well, I want to say, I have not gave up focus stuff, but I've came to the conclusion that it will take me to much time to get every aspect of it 100% compatible with the thoughts of the devs.
10:56<Zuu>Nice to hear you liked it though. :)
10:57<Zuu>Anything more than the console that annoys you about it?
10:57<Aali>I'll just hack something in to fix this issue myself for the time being.
10:57<Aali>Not really.
10:58<Zuu>Glad to hear
10:58<Aali>Everything else just works.
10:59<Zuu>I fixed the issue of newspapers steeling focus by make new windows only steel focus if no text-edit box has focus. But apparently I forgot to make a special check for the console.
10:59<Zuu>Well, steel focus is not the right word if no text edit has focus :-) , but I hope you get the point
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11:05<Zuu>My opinion is that either OpenTTD has to continue use query windows for expanding use of text editing in windows, or some kind of focus-patch and later also change to allow multiple edit boxes per window is needed.
11:07<Zuu>The lazy approach I think is to continue using query window. Possible with some extensions to it, but still having a special purpose window only for editing strings.
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11:19<Zuu>Aali: I can confirm your problems with a clear checkout.
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11:20<@Belugas>query window for methanks
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13:21<ccfreak2k>What a neat patch.
13:23<Sacro_>horrible wording
13:24<Sacro_>continueing implies arriving
13:24<Sacro_>you have to arrive to continue onwards
13:25<Sacro_>benjamingoodger: Error: unterminated sed command
13:26<Sacro_>better :p
13:27<Sacro_>{0} passengers alighting, {1} passengers continuing
13:27<Sacro_>ccfreak2k: that your patch?
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13:57<Eddi|zuHause>so... what did the Nikolaus bring you people?
13:57<Sacro_>Eddi|zuHause: german tradition only iirc
13:57<Sacro_>though actually, might be norway too
13:57<Sacro_>and finland
13:57<benjamingoodger>yes, I'll agree with that
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>it is also known in the netherlands and belgium, afaik
13:58<benjamingoodger>we have a st nicolas's day, but that's on the 25th
13:58*Sacro_ waves hi to the german police via Eddi|zuHause's computer
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>afair that law did not pass
13:59<benjamingoodger>oh, no, I'm wrong
13:59<benjamingoodger>st nicolas's day is today
13:59<@petern>what law?
13:59<benjamingoodger>we still don't celebrate it with gifts
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>that the federal police may spy secretly on people's computers
14:00<@petern>ah, nice
14:00<@petern>"if you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to hide!"
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>the latest status i knew was that it passed the "Bundestag" [Parliament], but failed in the "Bundesrat" [representation of the "Länder"]
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14:35<Splex>its pretty safe to say that it is a global certainty.
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: in this special case, the 16 "Länder" that constitute the federal republic of germany... roughly comparable that the USA are made of "states"
14:44<benjamingoodger>yes, I understand
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14:45<Eddi|zuHause>but the "bundesrat" has no direct counterpart in the USA
14:46<benjamingoodger>well, I'm british
14:46<benjamingoodger>my immediate thought was to compare it with the house of lords
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know that, but i have no real idea how the british political system works
14:47<benjamingoodger>for legislation, it is very simple
14:47<benjamingoodger>there are two houses, the Commons and the Lords, in the same building
14:47<benjamingoodger>the Commons is composed of about 300 elected representatives (members of Parliament)
14:48<benjamingoodger>each of these has a party allegiance, and the party with the most elected representatives gives rise to the government
14:48<benjamingoodger>the government proposes legislation, which is then debated in the Commons, and if it is passed in the Commons it moves onto the Lords, who are hereditary titled individuals
14:49<benjamingoodger>and it's meant to be debated further in the Lords in the same way as the US Senate, but they usually just rubber-stamp it
14:50<benjamingoodger>and thus, the general election is our method of selecting the autocratic government of the next five years...
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are some more or less subtile differences in the german system
14:50<benjamingoodger>carry on
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>there is the "Bundestag" and each "Land" has an own "Landtag"
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>who has the majority in a Landtag (usually a coalition of multiple parties) forms the government of the "Land", similar in the Bundestag
14:52<benjamingoodger>makes sense. wales, scotland and northern ireland have Assemblies, which I suppose are similar
14:52<benjamingoodger>right, same here
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>then, each government appoints members of the "Bundestag"
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>depending on population, each Land gets a different number of seats
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>so the members of the Bundestag are not elected directly
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>laws are subject to a jurisdiction, some laws are jurisdiction of the individual Länder, like edjucation or police. the bundestag may not pass laws concerning these jurisdiction
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>but for certain parts, the Bundestag may pass laws like this, for exaple to form a federal police. then it must ask the Bundesrat for permission
14:56<benjamingoodger>very well, sounds US-ish
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>that makes for some funny constellations, because in the Bundesrat, the party-membership does not define the fractions
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>for example like currently, there are 5 parties in the Bundestag (CDU/CSU and SPD form the government, FDP, Green and Left form the opposition), an
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>the Bundesrat consists of the same 5 parties, but due to certain coalitions on Länder-Level, not all votes of one party are to be expected
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>e.g if a Land has a coalition of CDU and FDP as government, the government of that Land can choose to abstain from the vote, which affects all representants of that Land, regardless of party
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>and the situation now is that almost no Land has a CDU+SPD government, so the opposition parties have a good way to enforce their will due to abstaining in the vote in the Bundesrat
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>and then add the fact that the CSU, which can only be elected in Bavaria, recently lost its absolute majority there (which it held for like 60 years)
15:03<frosch123>less than 40 :)
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>so they also had to form a coalition (with FDP in this case), so there are even less "certain" votes
15:04<benjamingoodger>you have broken my mind.
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>what i have always wondered myself... what happens when the CSU does not make the 5% rule in a Bundestag election?
15:06<frosch123>IIRC the 5% is per state
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>considering that only bavarians may vote for it, but the 5% is calculated on the whole german population
15:07<frosch123>ok, I was wrong
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, it can probably also make use of the 3 direct mandates rule
15:13<fjb_>Bavaria without the CSU? That will never happen...
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>not bavaria without the CSU, Bundestag without the CSU
15:16<frosch123>fjb_: about a week before the last elections, one of the two guys (don't know, huber or beckstein) defended himself against the bad predictions by "the csu also has to fight with people moving in from other states" :p
15:16-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
15:18<fjb>Ofcourse. Bavarian politicians blame everything on non native Bavarians.
15:18<benjamingoodger>what are the CSU's policies?
15:19<benjamingoodger>are they right or left or irritating wishy-washy centrists?
15:19<frosch123>countrymen :)
15:19<benjamingoodger>oh dear
15:19<benjamingoodger>how right?
15:19<frosch123>countrymen :)
15:20<benjamingoodger>I don't follow
15:20<fjb>Centrist right to really right.
15:20<benjamingoodger>oh dear...
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>benjamingoodger: by their own statement: "so right that there is no space right of them for nationalistic parties to form"
15:21<benjamingoodger>oh _dear_
15:22<benjamingoodger>we have a nationalist party here...
15:22<benjamingoodger>it's illegal for policemen to belong to it
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm sure there are quite diversified wings, but i'm not bavarian, so i don't really have to deal with them
15:23<fjb>Some nationalist parties got forbidden here. But I know some policemen who belong to nationalist parties which are not forbidden yet.
15:24<fjb>Especially one party is always talking about law and order.
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15:25<fjb>You have to have a closer look to see how nationalistic they are.
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15:25<benjamingoodger>I see
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>bavarians are their own people... different rules apply there
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15:27<benjamingoodger>I suppose great britain is very homogenised by comparison
15:28<frosch123>isn't there some scottish pary, who wants to separate scottland from united kingdom?
15:28<benjamingoodger>england and wales have been one uninterrupted country since the 1200s
15:28<benjamingoodger>scotland joined in the 1500s
15:28<benjamingoodger>ireland in the 1700s
15:28<benjamingoodger>it's never been apart
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>well... we don't have an ongoing military conflict between religious groups anymore...
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15:29<benjamingoodger>frosch123: yes, the Scottish National Party. its name betrays it
15:29<benjamingoodger>it's in no way nationalist, it's more cecessionist
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>the conflict between protestants and catholics was basically settled after the 30 years war
15:29<benjamingoodger>and it's done very well. practically everything in scotland is now scottish
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>which ended in 1648 but devastated the whole country
15:30<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: it took us a fair while to sort that out...
15:30<benjamingoodger>Bloody Mary Tudor, anyone?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>like 60% of the population was killed during that war
15:30<benjamingoodger>similar with the English civil war
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, there were more parties involved than just the religious fractions
15:31<benjamingoodger>except the English civil war was something of a democratic revolution
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>there was also the conflict of the local aristocracy fighting the centralistic king/emperor
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>and then the foreign countries France and Sweden, sensing easy prey in the weakened german states
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>it was not really a civil war
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>civil war would require an uprising of the general population, which was not the case
15:35<benjamingoodger>surely that's a revolution ¬.¬
15:36<benjamingoodger>I believe we define a civil war as a war internal to a nation, rather than between two nations
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then i have misinterpreted that
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>then yes, it does have characteristics of a civil war
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>at least in the first phase, before the foreign nations joined in
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15:39<thingwath>by foreign you mean those who weren't part of holy roman empire?
15:41<benjamingoodger>he referred to sweden and france
15:42<benjamingoodger>good grief, the price of oil is plummeting
15:42<benjamingoodger>it's hit $40 already
15:43<thingwath>bad question, I wanted to ask who was not foreing ('we') :-)
15:43<fjb>Fuel price started to raise again here today.
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i could only notice what i percieved a usual weekly fluctuation in a range of 3-5ct
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>per liter
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15:49<benjamingoodger>well, prices are going down slowly here
15:49<benjamingoodger>it was 90p/litre on wednesday, haven't looked since
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16:15<Eddi|zuHause>fuel prices easily dropped by 30% in the last few weeks
16:16<benjamingoodger>you're doing better than us then
16:17<benjamingoodger>ours are only down by 22% from the peak
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>it was at the brink of cutting 1,50€/l, now i've seen 1,13€/l
16:19<benjamingoodger>it was only at £1.16 here, and it's down to £0.9
16:23<Zuu>Aali: Now, i've released a version 12 which fixes the issue with the console which you mentioned. Plus I couldn't stop me form implementing some other stuff, hehe. (match case button, select sign from filtered list by arrow up/down keys)
16:26<Aali>awesome :)
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16:29<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: the US is back to "silly gas"
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that means
16:30<benjamingoodger>38 eurocents/litre
16:30<@petern>that's still expensive to them
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16:31<benjamingoodger>not as much as when it was $4 or more
16:31<Zuu>Aali: I've made the match-case button deactivated by default as I guess in most cases you don't want it. But if you feel that it should be the other way around after using it for a while, let me know.
16:33<Zuu>The button could possible be persistent (state saved to global variable) so that it restores its state when you close and open the window. But thats something for version 13, whenever that comes. :)
16:34<Aali>i think it should default to off
16:34<Zuu>that's what it is now.
16:35<Zuu>Plus the GUI looks better with it off :p
16:35<Aali>that one time you do need a case-sensitive search you'll probably forget to turn it off :P
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16:44<Zuu>I should probably make the first sign selected when one start typing a filter, so you don't need to press one of the arrow keys to select the first sign. Else I think some people who skiped reeding the instructions will miss that you can use the arrow keys.
16:44<Zuu>Or not, to make users read :p
16:44<Zuu>Well, I will not succed to make users read, but give a bonus to those who does. :)
16:46<TrueBrain>users and reading .. two words you never expect in one sentence :)
16:49<@petern>it works if you replace and with not
16:49<@petern>"users not reading" ...
16:50<TrueBrain>I agree with you there my dear petern :)
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17:46<Fantasya>sleepy night
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19:14<nicfer>Would be cool a new option in the local authorities window that funds a taxi network in the city
19:19<nicfer>Only one company per city, diminute profit and slowly rises the LA rating
19:19<nicfer>Oh, and it should be posible to upgrade it
19:19<thingwath>taxi service funded a local authority?
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19:24<nicfer>If you have a low level taxi network in a big city your rating diminuyes
19:26<nicfer>And if it's too high it generes loses
19:28<@Belugas>i never can put a word on nicfer's suggestions. Immediate word hat comes to mind : completely insane and idiotic divagations
19:28<@Belugas>but after a few moments,
19:28<@Belugas>it adds more to the game
19:29<@Belugas>but to such a development cost that it feels like climbng the himalaya
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19:31<nicfer>The players should own it and if more than one company has a taxi network in the same city the profits are lower per each one
19:31<nicfer>Also, there should be AIs that use the local authorities functions >:)
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19:33<@Rubidium>why is it always that people want to get randomly running vehicles?
19:34<Gekz>There should be traffic!
19:34<Gekz>and traffic jams!
19:34<Gekz>and environmental disasters the likes of SimCity!
19:35<thingwath>I want cars to run over with my trains, yes!
19:35<nicfer>Or why not levels or destroys the whole map like a multiplayer sabotager? Muhahaha
19:35<Gekz>better yet, let us build cities
19:35<Gekz>and manage them
19:35<Gekz>we could have zones: residential, commercial and industrial
19:35<Gekz>and in later versions we could allow the people to drive the vehicles.
19:35<Gekz>that would be sweet.
19:35<@Rubidium>oh... that's it... people essentially want to view OpenTTD and let the AIs do exactly what they want to do
19:36<nicfer>Heh, there are a lot of things that the AI could do
19:36<Gekz>they could make me a coffee
19:37<TrueBrain>but they should buy coffee first!
19:37*Belugas thinks people wnt vehicles just that it would look more like real life
19:37<@Belugas>give me a second while I vomit...
19:38<@Rubidium>Belugas: no, that's too much like real life
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19:39<nicfer>Fund industries... build canals...
19:39<Gekz>I like how canal stayed in english
19:39<Gekz>even though it should have been translated completely as channel
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19:39<Gekz>like the English Channel
19:41<benjamingoodger>possibly to distinguish it from actual channels?
19:41<benjamingoodger>a canal is clearly distinct.
19:43<@Belugas>i usually use a canal to urinate
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20:10<Gekz>benjamingoodger: the French seem fine using the word canal for both
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20:13<benjamingoodger>well, good for them
20:13<benjamingoodger>I'm not french, however
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20:40<@Belugas>your loss, ben, your loss :D
20:41<benjamingoodger>"recession? quelle recession?"
20:42<benjamingoodger>"ze frensh economie 'as 'ad continuous growth of exactly 2.45% evary year sinz 1949!"
20:43<benjamingoodger>^ stereotypical but reasonably accurate in its intent
20:44<benjamingoodger>the french economy is extremely well-regulated compared to our own
20:44<benjamingoodger>they have managed to restrain their house prices and haven't been lending money willy-nilly
20:48<Sacro>heh, willy
20:54<welshdragon>immature Sacro is immature
20:54<benjamingoodger>worn-out meme is worn-out
21:05<Gekz>France has some fairly screwed up fascist laws
21:05<benjamingoodger>such as?
21:06<Gekz>the three strikes law]
21:06<Gekz>which they also vetoed part of teh EU to allow to pass in France
21:06<Gekz>which is horrible
21:06<Gekz>democracy fail.
21:06<benjamingoodger>"democracy fail" nothing
21:07<benjamingoodger>they can do what they like with their laws, including laws based on EU directives
21:07<Gekz>erm, when most of the EU voted against it
21:07<Gekz>they went above it all.
21:07<Gekz>which is horrible.
21:07<benjamingoodger>EU directives aren't mandatory and they don't have to be ratified
21:08<Gekz>then what's the point of an EU directive
21:08<Gekz>if you dont have to follow them
21:09<Gekz>"Here kids, please don't fight, but if you do, we wont stop you."
21:09<benjamingoodger>"here kids, we'd really like you if you didn't fight."
21:09<benjamingoodger>"here kids, we'll throw money at your inefficient farmers if you don't fight"
21:10<benjamingoodger>it's all mutual back-scratching stuff
21:10<Gekz>once again, it's just a way to oppress the poorer members of the EU then
21:10<Gekz>because France can just say fuck you to all of it
21:11<benjamingoodger>or rather, to quote Yes Minister (1983): "We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans, the French to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition, and the Germans to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race."
21:11<benjamingoodger>Gekz: the poorer members are also free to say "fuck you" to it
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21:14<benjamingoodger>like any international community, it is dominated by the strongest powers
21:15<benjamingoodger>the United Nations is dominated by the United States
21:16<benjamingoodger>the European Union is dominated by the romance language countries
21:16<benjamingoodger>and the Commonwealth of Nations is dominated by the United Kingdom
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22:16<@Belugas>and the Earth is dominated by humans
22:16<@Belugas>what a shame
22:18<benjamingoodger>indeed so
22:18<benjamingoodger>though as a human, I quite enjoy dominating stuff
22:18<benjamingoodger>phrasing fail
22:26<benjamingoodger>quiet you
22:26<benjamingoodger>do you have a digg account?
22:27<benjamingoodger>if you do, please digg this as a favour to me.
22:28<@Belugas>does not ring a bell
22:28<@Belugas>what does is the call of my bed
22:28<@Belugas>got some sleep to take back :)
22:28<benjamingoodger>very well
22:28<@Belugas>bye bye
22:28<benjamingoodger>enjoy your period of unconsciousness
22:28<benjamingoodger>while you can...
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 07 00:00:06 2008