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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-10

---Logopened Wed Dec 10 00:00:14 2008
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03:14<dihedral>quote from the forums: "However Yorick is a good coder i trust him completely and his work is ussually to high standards."
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03:19<dihedral>hey ho
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05:45<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i read from your statement "you shouldn't trust yorick further than you can kick him" :p
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05:52<dihedral>hihi :-)
05:52<dihedral>nice one Eddi|zuHause
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06:06<@Celestar>Rubidium: I hope there won't be another savegame revision bump between now and cargodest merge :P
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06:08*Celestar ponders "how far can one kick yorick?"
06:09<Forked>south park flashback to "kick the baby"..
06:09*Eddi|zuHause ponders buying an external HD
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06:39<@Celestar>Forked: never really watched South Park
06:39<@Celestar>only once or twice
06:40<@Celestar>and it sucks in the dubbed version
06:43<Forked>everything sucks in a dubbed version :)
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't say that...
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>but i would agree that there are more bad examples than good ones :)
06:44<TrueBrain>hmm .. sucking ...
06:44<TrueBrain>oh, wait, did I say that out loud?
06:44<Forked>luckily I don't live in a land of dub-all :)
06:45<TrueBrain>like Germany .. bleg!
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07:09<TrueBrain>sjoep sjoep sjoep
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08:36<@Celestar>It costs 2 million dollars to move a Shuttle from Edwards AFB to KSC
08:36<@Celestar>and there mustn't be rain, snow, hail, temperatures below 15F or pressures below 8psi.
08:37*Celestar wonders why a SPACECRAFT cannot go below 8psi.
08:37<@Celestar>that somehow defeats the purpose
08:41<@Rubidium>maybe the tires aren't warm enough to handle the pressure difference ;)
08:42*Celestar is looking forward to seeing the shuttle mothballed
08:42<dihedral>they could just fly it there :-P
08:42<@Celestar>dihedral: how? :P
08:42<@Celestar>dihedral: there's no tank :P
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08:46<@Rubidium>Celestar: they fly the shuttle to KSC, right?
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08:47<@Rubidium>at least makes me believe that
08:47<@Celestar>Rubidium: I mean the shuttle can't fly itself (=
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08:50<@Rubidium>that shuttle can land at quite a lot of locations
08:52<dihedral>Celestar, a huge rubber band and catapult it into the air :P
08:57*Celestar wonders how to teach kontact/kde to accept some CA.
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09:06<@petern>there's no central certificate thingy, unlike windows :o
09:06<@petern>and even firefox on windows uses its own
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09:08<@Celestar>petern: KDE has a central one
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09:15<@Celestar>petern: I can also import the CA.
09:16<@Celestar>petern: I just seem unable to set its trust level for some reason
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09:45<@Celestar>got it :)
09:45<@Celestar>back later
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10:19<Moshe>hello all
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10:42<@petern>bah, no network support in the s60 port :o
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10:43<blathijs>Oeh, there is an S60 port?
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10:45<@petern>unofficial of course
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10:46<blathijs>If only I had the time to make an official port out of that :-)
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11:52<George_>Belugas: And how can I define more than 256 houses per GRF?
11:54<George_>Belugas: Many houses on one slot - I mean one house, which can have different view selected randomly or with a rule. If there would be population callback, than that would be great :)
12:00<+glx>I think you do it like you define other houses
12:02<+glx>just take care to disable the "extra" houses for ttdpatch
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12:08<yorick>how to generate diff files from hg builds without clear revision history?
12:08<yorick>(cargodest for example)
12:10<yorick>(need to exclude merges from trunk)
12:11<SmatZ>yorick: you may try diff /openttd-cargodest /openttd-clean ... probably with some parameters - I don't know if there is any native hg way
12:11<yorick>maybe outgoing to
12:12<+glx>hg diff -r latest_merge
12:12<yorick>glx: I have multiple merges
12:12<yorick>and I only want to get the own piece
12:14<yorick>yep, hg outgoing -p :)
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12:15<yorick>m, no, there's like 1641 KB of diff
12:18*yorick blinks
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12:27<yorick>ok, 206kb of diffs upon other diffs
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12:41<thingwath>KB, kb? what?
12:42<SmatZ>as in, 206 000 bits, or 25 750 B
12:42<thingwath>and KB? :-)
12:43<+glx>KB is not a unit
12:43<SmatZ> :)
12:43<thingwath>1641 of them? Oh.
12:44<benjamingoodger>glx: yes it is, it's a byte-kelvin XD
12:46<yorick>no, KiloByte :)
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12:47<+glx>kilo is k not K
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12:47<benjamingoodger>there is of course a KiB which is a kibibyte and does not involve the kilo prefix.
12:49<thingwath>yep, but it is not K + iB, but Ki + B
12:50<Prof_Frink>And there's KI, which is potassium iodide.
12:50<SmatZ> for memories, KB means 1024 B
12:51<SmatZ>"The quoted capacity of 3½ inch HD floppy disks is 1.44 MB, where MB stands for 1000 times 1024 bytes." I like this one :)
12:52<+glx>it's wrong
12:53<thingwath>it's crazy
12:55<SmatZ>@calc 1457664 / 1024 / 1000
12:55<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 1.4235
12:55<SmatZ>ah, it's formatted capacity...
12:56<+glx>formatted its 1.38
12:56<SmatZ>@calc 1457664 / 1024 / 1024
12:56<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 1.39013671875
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12:57<SmatZ>but it's possible (but unlikely in this case ;) I don't remember the size correctly
12:58<@Belugas>George_, your population callback... when would you think it should be triggered?
12:58<@Belugas>hey ! SmatZ!!
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12:59<George_>1) when industry is build.
12:59-!-mortal`` is now known as mortal
12:59<George_>2) periodically (like every 256, 1024, or 65536 ticks)
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13:00<SmatZ>hello Mr. Belugas :)
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13:04<@Belugas>when industry is built??? you mean"When house is built" right?
13:05<@Belugas>how's life SmatZ?
13:05<SmatZ>Belugas: life is going very quickly, sadly :( no time for fun, anything :-x how are you, Belugas? :)
13:06<@Belugas>well... about the same as you ^_^
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13:06<benjamingoodger>hello belugas, SmatZ
13:06<SmatZ>hello benjamingoodger
13:07<@Belugas>hello ben :)
13:07<benjamingoodger>is this the room for those who've lost interest in life?
13:08<benjamingoodger>oh, hello petern
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13:13<@Belugas>benjamingoodger, it's more the room for two kinds of people: those who are eagerly waiting some new features and those who cannot provide anything new since they are workers/students caugh up on a life franzy that does not seems to end
13:13<@Belugas>ho... and useless ghosts too ;)
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14666 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-10 18:44:59
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 306 fixed by khaloofah (306)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hebrew - 419 fixed, 45 changed by moshe (458), ybungalobill (6)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changed by alyr (1)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ido - 12 fixed by Cecile (12)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 10 fixed by fanioz (10)
13:47<welshdragon>hmm, i'll do some welsh translations over christmas
13:48*welshdragon hasn't really got time / isn't in the right frame of mind
13:49*benjamingoodger will eventually have civilised debate over welsh with welshdragon but also lacks the proper frame of mind
13:50<welshdragon>benjamingoodger, indeed
13:53<welshdragon>are you from wales?
13:53<@Belugas>i'm a whale!
13:53<@petern>welshdragon, he thinks anything besides english is pointless
13:54-!-welshdragon is now known as englishdragon
13:55<lolman>englishdragon, You do realise that dragons get slayed in England?
13:55<benjamingoodger>yes, and not put on our damned flag ¬.¬
13:55-!-englishdragon is now known as englishlion
13:55<lolman>Only one?
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13:56<@petern>the one we're not allowed to call the union jack any more...
13:56<englishlion>well, there's not 3 of me
13:56-!-englishliontamer is now known as benjamingoodger
13:56<lolman>petern, unless it was at sea we can't call it that anyway
13:56<benjamingoodger>petern: that's because it's called the union flag
13:56<@petern>when i was at school
13:56<@petern>we all learnt it as union jack...
13:57<benjamingoodger>yes, that's a common misconception
13:57<benjamingoodger>a jack is a flag that flies on a ship
13:58<@petern>common as in... in the 1600s
13:59<benjamingoodger>actually, the flag was last updated in 1801
14:00<benjamingoodger>that was when we took over Ireland
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14:01<@petern>last updated, maybe
14:01<@petern>it's still be called the union jack all that time
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14:01<benjamingoodger>no, it has always been the Union Flag
14:02<benjamingoodger>and the Union Jack when flown on ships
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14:10<@petern>it is a criminal offence to fly the union jack from a boat :D
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14:13<lolman>petern, if you're not in the Royal Navy
14:14<@petern>well yeah
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14:55<yorick>I stripped my 1604kb patch file a bit, it doesn't inlcude all recent trunk commits with diffs on eachother anymore
14:56<yorick>ot's only 111kb
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14:58<yorick>hello Celestar :)
14:58<@Celestar>how's it yorick ?
14:58<yorick>it's fine :)
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15:00<SmatZ>you fixed it :)
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15:04<yorick>I am never ok
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15:05<yorick>Celestar: <-- it's some feeder share fix :)
15:05<@Celestar>yorick: what does it do?
15:05<yorick>it stores the amount of squares ^ 2 / the amount of time for each vehicle on the cargopacket
15:06<yorick>to destribute the feeder shares more equally
15:08<@Celestar>I will have a look at it, but not today. Still work remaining and headlines coming up
15:10<@Celestar>something like that should definitly go in v2 of cargodest
15:11<yorick>it should go into trunk :P
15:12<@Celestar>that is Rubidium's call (U=
15:15<@Celestar>hm .. it looks rather clean at first glace
15:16<@Celestar>I'm just wondering about the performance (loops)
15:17<@Celestar>did you do a profile run?
15:17<@Celestar>I gotta go (dinner time)
15:17<@Celestar>CU later
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16:01<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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16:10<TrueBrain>hi Nite_Owl
16:10<Nite_Owl>Hello TrueBrain
16:12<TrueBrain>"Men and fathers don't know much about raising children"
16:13<TrueBrain>that is what a newspaper here says
16:13<TrueBrain>I wonder ... if someone becomes a father, he no longer belongs under the catagory men? Kind of cruwl ..
16:13<TrueBrain>then in the article you read: "Women and mothers ..."
16:14-!-nekx [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:17-!-Tvistamx [] has joined #openttd
16:17<Tvistamx>For example, nniigggeerrss and humans may have evolved from a common ancestor. Those that left Africa grew into modern humans with low aggression and large cranial capacities. Those that remained devolved into retarded ape human hybrids. Join us at For more info, ask in our Guest Forum.
16:17<TrueBrain>@kban Tvistamx goodbye
16:17-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
16:17-!-Tvistamx was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [goodbye]
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16:18<TrueBrain>bunch of boring people here :p
16:19-!-TrueBrain was kicked from #openttd by petern [cock]
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16:19<TrueBrain>petern: excuse me?
16:19<yorick>chimpout spam :D
16:20-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by petern [cockcock]
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16:20<yorick>petern: excuse me?
16:20<TrueBrain>I think somsone has a cock fetish ..
16:20<yorick>what have you drunk now?
16:21<TrueBrain>I suspect more he took some kind of weird looking pill
16:21<@petern>nothing :(
16:21<ecke>does anybody have logitech g9?
16:22<TrueBrain>that mouse looks so ugly!
16:23<ecke>doesnt matter
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16:23<TrueBrain>it was more that I was very suprised that was possible :)
16:23*yorick doesn't like mice at all
16:24<Sacro>yes petern ?
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16:30<@Belugas>prop is passed to town houses as int
16:30<@Belugas>not byte
16:35<frosch123>so tea makes you erupt bunches of newgrf stuff instead of other gaga
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16:39<@Belugas>hehe instead of coffee, indeed ;)
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16:43<@petern>errr, cold suddenly
16:43<@petern>shivering :o
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16:54<TrueBrain>bored to the ground and back
16:55<TrueBrain>I guess I should be doing something useful instead
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16:56<Wolf01>update the pocketpc patch
16:56<benjamingoodger>TrueBrain: think of a tagline for my publishing company ¬.¬
16:56<TrueBrain>I no longer have a PocketPC
16:56-!-Mark [] has joined #openttd
16:56<TrueBrain>"Just buy it"
16:56-!-Mark is now known as M4rk
16:56-!-M4rk is now known as Mark
16:56<TrueBrain>and playing OpenTTD on such low resolutions is just silly in my opinion ..
16:56<TrueBrain>below 640x400, it is kind of unplayable
16:57<Wolf01>I have it, I can do test
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16:58<TrueBrain>btw, benjamingoodger, if you use that phrase above, I expect at least 2% of your netto profit
16:58<benjamingoodger>netto indeed
16:58-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:59<TrueBrain>(it is in general very impossible to give someone of the netto profit ... as that means it wasn't netto afterall :p)
16:59<benjamingoodger>it's "net"
17:00<benjamingoodger>netto is a long-dead supermarket
17:00<TrueBrain>failure in translation
17:00<benjamingoodger>but don't worry, I'm not going to use your tagline
17:00<TrueBrain>can't help that :)
17:01<TrueBrain>why did I already seen all the good movies :(
17:02<TrueBrain>petern: tell us a funny story
17:03<@petern>once upon a time there was an englishman, an irishman, a scotsman, and a welshdragon
17:04<Prof_Frink>Did they walk into a bar?
17:04<@Belugas>they all went to a pub, ordered some beers, and suddenly, they could understand each other!
17:04*benjamingoodger is sceptical
17:04<@Belugas>shit... he stole my punch line :S
17:04<TrueBrain>you guys are mean!
17:05<benjamingoodger>the UK is the most tolerant society in the history of the world
17:05<benjamingoodger>the Irish hate the English
17:05<@Belugas>TrueBrain, i might have a good job for you :)
17:05<benjamingoodger>the Scots hate the English
17:05<TrueBrain>Belugas: do tell
17:05<benjamingoodger>the Welsh especially hate the English
17:05<benjamingoodger>the English hate most of the English
17:05<@Belugas>teach benjamingoodger more emoticons then the only one he knows already!!
17:05<TrueBrain>Belugas: that is indeed a fulltime job
17:05<TrueBrain>sorry, I pass
17:05<benjamingoodger>so, overall, the fact that we can all put up with each other makes us extremely toleran
17:06<TrueBrain>no, it makes you stupid
17:06<TrueBrain>a whole different thing
17:06<Prof_Frink>benjamingoodger: There's a simple reason for it.
17:06<Prof_Frink>We all hate the French.
17:06*benjamingoodger nods
17:06<welshdragon>and we are all behind computers
17:06<TrueBrain>good point Prof_Frink :)
17:06<welshdragon>not sat next to each other :)
17:07<welshdragon>Prof_Frink, take that back, about the french
17:07<welshdragon>there are some nice ones
17:07<TrueBrain>French people suck; glx is the exception
17:07<benjamingoodger>they do have a very nice road to Spain
17:07<welshdragon>but then there are the nasty ones, no, reinstate it, oh and ban glx >:)
17:07<benjamingoodger>and that stadium in Toulouse (that I keep driving round and round because I'm lost) is very nice
17:08<+glx>@kick welshdragon it could have been a @ban
17:08-!-welshdragon was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [it could have been a @ban]
17:09<Nite_Owl>No time Toulouse
17:09<TrueBrain>completely expected :) I wanted to do it, but I thought I would leave it to you glx ;)
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17:09*benjamingoodger installs a caravan up welshdragon
17:09*welshdragon chugs along th3e M4 slowly
17:09<benjamingoodger>welshdragon will now ignite the english caravan, thereby burning himself to death
17:10*welshdragon dies
17:10-!-welshdragon [~welshdrag@] has left #openttd [gurgle gurgle ded. lol]
17:10*Belugas wonders if he can be designated as among the french people
17:10<TrueBrain>else you would hae been an exception too ;)
17:10<Prof_Frink>benjamingoodger: And you destroyed a caravan in the process!
17:11<benjamingoodger>I did :)
17:11<benjamingoodger>I don't know why everyone hates them so much though
17:11<benjamingoodger>whenever I've been on the M4, the caravans have been very well-behaved and stuck to lane 1
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17:12<Prof_Frink>They're OK on motorways, no worse than lorries.
17:12<Prof_Frink>on the A5 otoh...
17:12<benjamingoodger>I nearly got sandwiched between two lorries on the M3
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>1024 Bytes (1,0 kB) kopiert, 66,2646 s, 0,0 kB/s <- oh this is going to be fun...
17:12<benjamingoodger>and then another one pulled out in front of me a few miles down
17:13<@Belugas>funny... a french guy can be either one living in France or one speaking french
17:13<@Belugas>semantics semantics...
17:13*englishlion roars
17:13<@petern>i had a lorry pull out on me across 3 empty lanes at 2 am at *cough* mph once
17:13<@petern>that was ncie
17:16<@Belugas>a lorry?
17:17<@Belugas>you mean a cop?
17:17<@Belugas>a trailer?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>lorry [BE] == truck [AE]
17:17<benjamingoodger>the icebergs of the motorway....
17:18<@petern>fings wot are big and slow
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>stuff like that happens when languages don't use names as descriptive as in german...
17:18<benjamingoodger>no, big and heavy and _poorly driven_
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>where everybody knows what a "Lastkraftwagen" is supposed to be
17:18<@petern>only by prositute murderers
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>(of course they are more commonly called "LKW")
17:19<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: The final delivery of processed cheese?
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17:20<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: i have no idea what you are implying...
17:21<Prof_Frink>last Kraft wagon.
17:21<@petern>kraft dairylea... blegh
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>i associate "Kraft" with ketchup... where do you get cheese from?
17:21<@petern>horrible stuff
17:22<benjamingoodger>Eddi|zuHause: kraft produce just about everything...
17:22<benjamingoodger>including Dairylea cheese
17:22<benjamingoodger>which is FILTH
17:22<benjamingoodger>as petern says.
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that is
17:22<Prof_Frink>I know what it isn't.
17:22<benjamingoodger>well, look it up
17:22<@petern>22:22 < benjamingoodger> as petern says.
17:23<@petern>"Despite a 2007 reformulation that reduced salt content by 9% and saturated fat content by 34%, the claim “full of good stuff” was banned by the UK's Advertising Standards Authority"
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really not a cheese person
17:23<@petern>it's not really cheese
17:24<@petern>"In November 2008 it was found by the Food Commission, an independent consumer watchdog group, that Kraft Dairylea contained high levels of 3-MCPD, a suspected human carcinogen."
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>i basically hate cheese, except on pizza
17:25<Nite_Owl>A fellow cheese hater
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>petern: isn't everything causing cancer these days?
17:25<Prof_Frink>Especially DHMO.
17:25<Sacro>argh no *dies*
17:25<Prof_Frink>dangerous stuff, that.
17:25<Nite_Owl>only in lab rats
17:25<TrueBrain>breathing causes cancer ... (unbound oxygen ;))
17:26<@petern> heh
17:26<Nite_Owl>I think lab rats are born with cancer
17:26-!-englishlion is now known as welshdragon
17:26*Prof_Frink is now known as St_George
17:30<Nite_Owl>Imagine it is 10,000 B.C. You milked your goat the previous night but left some of the milk in the bucket. It has gone hard due to the build up of bacteria. Would your first instinct be to throw the contents of the bucket away or to reach in and taste the remnants?
17:30<Prof_Frink>Nite_Owl: Depends how hungry you are, dunnit?
17:30<Nite_Owl>From my upcoming essay On The Origin of Cheese
17:31<TrueBrain>lol @ Nite_Owl
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>Nite_Owl: imagine you are sitting with your fellow hunting partners around a warm fire, celebrating your recent success, suddenly the fresh meat in your hands falls into the fire...
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17:35<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: Then you wave it around and say "OK, who ordered 'well done'?"
17:35<Nite_Owl>after you wipe the ashes off of it
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>Nite_Owl: it was supposed to be an analogy
17:37<Nite_Owl>I understood - but I was just "milking" it for all the humor I could get
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>then i'd suggest s/he// and s/of/with/ :p
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17:43<Nite_Owl>If I read that right I should have used a smiley? Probably true but I am not a big fan of smilies either. If the humor is not obvious then I have failed.
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18:13<TrueBrain>back to boredome
18:21<Sacro>TrueBrain: we love you too
18:21<TrueBrain>tnx Sacro, that makes my day :)
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18:41<TrueBrain>hmm ... /me ponders over a very old idea of mine: MMO OpenTTD
18:45<SmatZ>TrueBrain: wwottdgd ?
18:45<TrueBrain>SmatZ: bigger, much bigger
18:46<TrueBrain>think 10Mx10M maps
18:46<SmatZ>:) with current design?
18:46<SmatZ>I sure like the idea
18:46<SmatZ>I like big maps...
18:46<TrueBrain>I already once made a draft which shows it can be done
18:46<TrueBrain>the clients only hold a small portion of the real map
18:46<SmatZ>but I don't want to download 50MB map just to join
18:46<TrueBrain>and the map is hosted by several servers
18:47<TrueBrain>when moving around, you are trade off to other servers along the way
18:47<SmatZ>TrueBrain: and random number value is stored for each sub-block?
18:47<TrueBrain>it for sure slows the game down on the client
18:47<TrueBrain>but then again, it does have less data to keep track of
18:47<TrueBrain>(which should improve the speed ;))
18:47<TrueBrain>the only big problem is the server side
18:48<TrueBrain>a train going from one server to an other server needs to be trade off correctly
18:48<SmatZ>yup :)
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18:48<TrueBrain>by making a few 'void' tiles around the map where vehicles can be (but not shown), there is time for this to work
18:48<SmatZ>imagine train crashing to anothe rtrain at different server ;)
18:49<TrueBrain>there will be a lot of communication between those servers :)
18:49<SmatZ>also, including station catchment area (up to ~80 x 80 tiles)
18:49<TrueBrain>such things should be limited
18:49<SmatZ>servers are designed to receive data one tick earlier
18:49<TrueBrain>but the easiest way is to copy a part of the server left of you inside your own map
18:50<TrueBrain>so if a catchment area of 80 should be possible (why on earth ..)
18:50<TrueBrain>there should be 80 extra tiles on each side
18:50<SmatZ>but server A executing data from server B 1 tick old , while B is executing 1 tick old data from server A ... is asking for big problems
18:50<TrueBrain>and each server makes sure the other servers around him know about changes
18:50<TrueBrain>synchronizing that should be relative easy
18:50<TrueBrain>(put clients on a 2 tick delay ;))
18:51<SmatZ>I don't see the solution now, but if you say so, I trust you :)
18:51<TrueBrain>clients are now delayed 1 tick
18:51<TrueBrain>so make that 2 ticks
18:51<SmatZ>first step would be making game threadsafe...
18:51<TrueBrain>tick 0: server receives commands, sends it to other servers
18:51<TrueBrain>tick 1: server sends it to all clients
18:51<TrueBrain>tick 2: everyone executes the command
18:51<TrueBrain>why threadsafe?
18:51*SmatZ is thinking
18:52*SmatZ turns of news so he can think
18:52<TrueBrain>hehe :)
18:52<SmatZ>mmm interesting new, can't turn it off :)
18:52<SmatZ>about end of commies government :)
18:52<TrueBrain>the main problem are servers ... currently they push 100% CPU when there are 3000+ trains or what so ever, in 2kx2k maps .. so clustering that up to 10Mx10M maps .. well .. takes a lot of CPU :p
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18:53<TrueBrain>so, a server needs to be made quicker
18:53<SmatZ>TrueBrain: 3000+ ? 2k x 2k ?
18:53<TrueBrain>move irrelevant stuff away, back to client-only
18:53<SmatZ>I think many servers have problems running much less CPU-power hungry maps :)
18:54<TrueBrain>thinks like: disable trees, speeds up the game ;)
18:54<SmatZ>well, anywhere you move the border what sees the server
18:54<SmatZ>it is a place where train crash (for example) may happen
18:54<SmatZ>but only one server sees that in the first tick
18:55<SmatZ>how do you solve that?
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18:55<TrueBrain>that is a non-issue (if I understand you correct)
18:55<TrueBrain>now servers also don't see crashes one tick early
18:55<TrueBrain>they all see them at the same time
18:55<SmatZ>yeah, but... it happens in tick 1 ... server A sees the crash
18:55<TrueBrain>because each server has a portion of the map of the server next to him, mostly :)
18:55<SmatZ>and server B doesn't see it at all
18:56<TrueBrain>this does introduce stuff like: train-limit
18:56<SmatZ>maybe server A sends the info about it to server B ... but it receives it one tick later
18:56<TrueBrain>no trains of N tiles ;)
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18:56<TrueBrain>and if that doesn't solve it, make 'priority' communication between servers
18:56<TrueBrain>which runs in a seperate thread, not related to the game ticks
18:56<SmatZ>well... train B then may see the crash won't happen, because the train crashed earlier, etc :)
18:56<TrueBrain>but that is kind of nasty ;)
18:57<SmatZ>limiting train length could solve that, yes
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18:57<TrueBrain>if there is a copy of the map, including trains and everything .. both server A and server B see the crash happen
18:57<SmatZ>of *whole* map
18:57<TrueBrain>if server B doesn't see it, the train was already far outside the range of serer B :)
18:57<TrueBrain>say, all servers run a 64x64 map
18:57<TrueBrain>A B
18:57<TrueBrain>C D
18:58<TrueBrain>server A has 8 tiles of server B (his left) and 8 tiles of server C (his top)
18:58<TrueBrain>when no train is longer than 8 tiles
18:58<SmatZ>and 64 tiles of D
18:58-!-DASPRiD is now known as DASPRiD|off
18:58<TrueBrain>well, a small square of D :p
18:58<SmatZ>8x8 is 64 ;)
18:58<TrueBrain>B and C have 8x64, D only 8x8 ;)
18:58<TrueBrain>like that, yes :)
18:59<TrueBrain>as those '8' tiles are outside of the map
18:59<TrueBrain>(a client gets the data from server A, B, C and D)
18:59<TrueBrain>I think that it might just go perfectly fine, with crashes and such :)
19:00<SmatZ>server A sees only tail of a train
19:00<SmatZ>how does it know how fast should it move?
19:00<TrueBrain>the train will be magicly running outside the map :)
19:00<SmatZ>or how does it know if it doesn't crash?
19:00<TrueBrain>well, in fact .. at that the train head leaves the map
19:00<TrueBrain>it no longer has to care about the train :)
19:01<SmatZ>so it whole disappears?
19:01<TrueBrain>+ time
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19:01<TrueBrain>it is already outside of the map from the client point of view
19:01<TrueBrain>so, yes
19:01<SmatZ>but how does server A know the train crashed at server B?
19:01<SmatZ>it knows it one tick later
19:01<TrueBrain>it doesn't need to :)
19:01<TrueBrain>in those '8' tiles zones
19:02<TrueBrain>all that server A does, is check for such events as crashes
19:02<Sacro>a NMZ?
19:02<SmatZ>but then there may be another train that would crash that train when it crashed
19:02<TrueBrain>and incoming trains
19:02<SmatZ>but because it crashed "one tick later", it behaves differently
19:02<TrueBrain>you and your "one tick later"
19:02<TrueBrain>it is wrong thinking :)
19:02<SmatZ>please explain :)
19:02<TrueBrain>I wish I could show you, but it takes a lot of programming time to do ;)
19:02<@petern>forgot fully synchronised maps
19:02<TrueBrain>okay, train Z is coming from 17x0 on server A
19:02<TrueBrain>and is running down
19:03<TrueBrain>at 17x64 it is at the border of server A
19:03<TrueBrain>server B in meantime was already tracking train Z when it was at 17x58
19:03<TrueBrain>it magiclly appears in the 'black zone'
19:03<TrueBrain>server A on the other hand, is tracking all data of server B up to 17x72
19:03<TrueBrain>including trains
19:04<TrueBrain>there is no way you can now have a crash, which is not registered at both server A and server B
19:04<TrueBrain>given that the train is of a length max 8 (Well, say 7 to be safe)
19:04<TrueBrain>when ever the head of the train passes 17x72, server A forgets about the train
19:04<TrueBrain>(it already is at 17x8 on server B)
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19:05<SmatZ>ok, then the train stops
19:05<SmatZ>and train at 17x64 crashes it's back
19:05<SmatZ>server B knows about it
19:05<SmatZ>but server A doesn't
19:05<TrueBrain>sure, server A does too
19:05<TrueBrain>why shouldn
19:05<TrueBrain>t it?
19:05<SmatZ>[01:04:31] <TrueBrain> when ever the head of the train passes 17x72, server A forgets about the train
19:05<TrueBrain>train length of 7 tiles
19:06<TrueBrain>so no way a train can crash into train Z at 17x64, when his head is past 17x72
19:06<TrueBrain>the math says that cna't be done ;)
19:06<TrueBrain>from 17x56 up to 17x72, two servers track the same train
19:06<SmatZ>you have two trains going in one direction ... first train has lower VehicleID, so its tick is executed first
19:06<TrueBrain>what ever he does .. it is always safe :)
19:07<SmatZ>for server B, the first train crashes train stopped at 17x72
19:07<SmatZ>and train A crashes train B
19:07<SmatZ>but for server A, train B doesn't crash anything
19:07<SmatZ>and so doesn't train A
19:07<SmatZ>or so...
19:07<TrueBrain>why wouldn't it, if it did on server B
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19:08<TrueBrain>I really see no event
19:08<SmatZ>not to mention the order in which vehicle ticks are executed has to be synchronised
19:08<TrueBrain>synchronized VehicleIDs
19:08<TrueBrain>not that hard ;)
19:08<TrueBrain>(is required anyway)
19:08<SmatZ>server A:
19:09<SmatZ>train B goes one tick further, no problem
19:09<SmatZ>train A following train B goes one tick further, no problem
19:09<SmatZ>server B:
19:09<SmatZ>train B goes one tick further, crash
19:10<SmatZ>it crashes to back of train C that has already disappeared on server A
19:10<TrueBrain>it is in the design above IMPOSSIBLE for train B to crash on server B, but not on server A .. simply not possible :) (that is the whole idea of a duplicated border)
19:10<TrueBrain>when you put two trains DIRECTLY after eachother, it might be possible that train Z crashes at 17x73, and that server B informs server A of this crash too late
19:10<TrueBrain>very rare situation, but it might happen
19:10<TrueBrain>either some correction algorithm should kick in
19:11<TrueBrain>or server A should track train Z till it leaves the map completely
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19:11<SmatZ>well, then it has to know the whole map of server B
19:11<TrueBrain>but that situation is very rare, as train A has to crash into train Z the SAME TICK as train Z crashes ..
19:11<SmatZ>because of signals, PF etc.
19:11<TrueBrain>no, server B just needs to update the position (or speed) of the train to server A
19:12<TrueBrain>but I doubt any person can put two train after eachother which causes the situation above
19:12<TrueBrain>haha, an other nasty solution is to delay the crash of the second train on server B anyway
19:12<TrueBrain>(with 1 tick)
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19:12<TrueBrain>and if that all fails, we make VEHICLE_CRASH a DoCommand, and it is fixed instantly ;)
19:12<mrfrenzy>well you can't have two trains after one another
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19:12<TrueBrain>mrfrenzy: sure you can
19:12<mrfrenzy>you will need two signals which means atleast half a square
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19:13<TrueBrain>ever tried: ignore red, button?
19:13<mrfrenzy>will it catch up then you mean?
19:13<TrueBrain>time it right .. use start/stop
19:13<mrfrenzy>I never tried that...
19:13<TrueBrain>and sure some insane idiot can time it exactly like that
19:13<SmatZ>like me
19:13<TrueBrain>I want to see you do that :)
19:14<mrfrenzy>I volunteer to do that as soon as you got the server running TrueBrain ;)
19:14<TrueBrain>SmatZ: anyway, the easiest solution is to make a correction algorithm in such rare rare cases
19:14<TrueBrain>if server A says: vehicle N crashes
19:14<TrueBrain>and server B says it one tick later
19:14<TrueBrain>he was clearly wrong, and needs to update some info on the vehicle
19:14<TrueBrain>(or say to server A: gimme the data on vehicle N)
19:15<TrueBrain>anyway, one of the biggest changes this will need, is that each vehicle will need his own randomizer
19:15<TrueBrain>this makes sure it makes the same choices on every client and server
19:16<TrueBrain>and a big pain in the ass would be to synchronize towns over the border :)
19:16<mrfrenzy>how much more network traffic would it mean to have the randomizing done on servers only instead of clients
19:16<mrfrenzy>the servers only sending velocities and positions to clients
19:16<mrfrenzy>and clients just sending commands to servers
19:16<TrueBrain>mrfrenzy: it would get insane, the traffic :)
19:16<TrueBrain>you have no idea the amount of data that changes every tick
19:16<TrueBrain>(a big portion of the map-data alone changes, due to tree-growth and such)
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19:17<TrueBrain>SmatZ: but you see that that might just work out just fine? :)
19:18<SmatZ>TrueBrain: everything is possible... but this is insane :)
19:18<TrueBrain>how is that insane?
19:18<TrueBrain>besides one very rare corner case you pointed out, it is in fact just synchronizing data
19:18<TrueBrain>I do agree the servers need to be on a LAN of some sort
19:18<TrueBrain>I don't want to see the bandwidth requirement for it :p
19:19<SmatZ>true, you may completely ignore these corne cases :)
19:19<mrfrenzy>me and a friend discussed the idea of trading trains/goods between different games
19:19<TrueBrain>really... did you ever put two trains DIRECTLY after eachother? :p
19:19<mrfrenzy>you just send a train across the border of the map, and then your server can forget about it
19:19<mrfrenzy>then it appears on the other server
19:19<TrueBrain>mrfrenzy: SimCity ;)
19:20<TrueBrain>that in fact should be very easy to implement :)
19:20<TrueBrain>well .. maybe not 'very' easy
19:20<TrueBrain>but just a matter of writing
19:20<mrfrenzy>and if the client moves to the other map, it can just overlap the two maps with a small gap
19:20<TrueBrain>share some kind of security code between server, so you don't allow unauthroized access :p
19:20<mrfrenzy>the server doesn't need to keep track of anything except what is on his own map
19:20<TrueBrain>a special type of 'rail', which act as 'toll' port
19:21<TrueBrain>clients moving between servers, than you get the story above ;)
19:21<TrueBrain>which is highly complicated :)
19:21<mrfrenzy>yeah, then you get paid exactly when they enter the toll
19:21<TrueBrain>oh yes my friend :)
19:21<mrfrenzy>the clients maintain the two maps separately
19:21<TrueBrain>I doubt that is possible within the current design of OpenTTD :)
19:21<mrfrenzy>only connection is that a few ticks after a train disappears on map a, it will appear on map b
19:22<mrfrenzy>with some forced signals in the "toll both"
19:22<mrfrenzy>so you can't make crashes until it enters your network atleast
19:22<TrueBrain>SmatZ: anyway, the other related idea to this is a complete rewrite of OpenTTD :p I won't bother you with that ;) hehe :)
19:22<mrfrenzy>or you could just have cargo dropoff and pickup at the borders
19:22<mrfrenzy>but that wouldn't be as fun
19:22<TrueBrain>moving things from one server to an other is relative easy
19:22<SmatZ>TrueBrain: what about cargodest? signals? PBS? pathfinders?
19:22<TrueBrain>having clients scroll one map over an other ... ;)
19:23<TrueBrain>SmatZ: cargodest is a problem
19:23<TrueBrain>signals is also synchronization
19:23<TrueBrain>same for PBS
19:23<TrueBrain>pathfinders .. hmm ..
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19:23<TrueBrain>never considered pathfinders
19:23<TrueBrain>would require some trickery
19:24<TrueBrain>there is no easy way in the current design ...
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19:25<SmatZ>also, the station catchemnt area and train length you mentioned is a limit :)
19:25<SmatZ>town size...
19:25<TrueBrain>limits there will be, but that is a small price to pay ;)
19:26<TrueBrain>but pathfinder .. hmm ..
19:26<SmatZ>if there is a town growing, it would be tricky if it were at border of two servers... or four... or ten... for big cities :)
19:26<TrueBrain>really no easy way around it :(
19:26<TrueBrain>it means you need to delegate the pathfinder request through the whole grid of servers
19:26<mrfrenzy>well you will just have to disallow cities spanning borders
19:26<TrueBrain>a lot of caching :p
19:26<mrfrenzy>after all it's about transport not simcity
19:27<TrueBrain>SmatZ: okay, I give up, it is insane ;)
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19:28<TrueBrain>each server needs to keep a graph of all his border connections and stations of his part of the map, and their connection
19:28<TrueBrain>including with length
19:28<TrueBrain>but worst part: clients need to receive that info from the server
19:29<TrueBrain>which is kind of fundamental to the current design .. that clients don't need to get data from the server to know which way a train goes ;)
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19:29<TrueBrain>so the 'quick' version of the MMO idea would be to make 'portals', where trains disapear, and magically appear in an other server (without a client being able to see that)
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19:30<TrueBrain>can be interesting for wwottdgd ;)
19:30-!-benjamingoodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:30<TrueBrain>Use the Search!
19:30<SmatZ>world wide ottd game day
19:31<@Belugas>SmatZ is too good with the creatures
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19:31<SmatZ>Belugas: what creatures? :)
19:31<TrueBrain>would mean all servers need to run the same GRFs :)
19:31<@Belugas>ho, by the way, SmatZ, have you worked on the TTDPMTENN ?that seemed like a hell of a feature to me :D
19:32<SmatZ>Belugas: not at all :) what does that mean?
19:32<TrueBrain>SmatZ: tnx for the feedback ;) Now I go sit in a corner think of other stupid things :p :)
19:32<SmatZ>TrueBrain: hehehe, I get crazy ideas sometimes too... at least I was having them when I played OTTD more often ;)
19:32<TrueBrain>so play OpenTTD more often :p
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19:33*SmatZ should sync his 3D branch (after serveral months ;)
19:33<TrueBrain>the one with the tunnels?
19:34<SmatZ>yeah, and "flying" bridges :-D
19:34<TrueBrain>that was so cool :)
19:34<TrueBrain>hmm .. bah .. OpenTTD is a bad design to make such MMO ..
19:35<TrueBrain>I always think it stinks that most MMOs are not really 'one big world' or what ever
19:35<TrueBrain>they are just grids in which you clearly move
19:35<TrueBrain>like EVE .. you see when you are going to an other server
19:35<SmatZ>I played only WOW
19:35<TrueBrain>the same holds
19:35<TrueBrain>SecondLife, same thing
19:35<TrueBrain>(although slightly more transparent)
19:36<SmatZ>*on a hacked server
19:36<SmatZ>... so, no going from one server to another
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19:37<TrueBrain>reminds me of Earth and Beyond ..
19:37<TrueBrain>I wonder how far the open source replacement is by now
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19:37<SmatZ>I don't know that one
19:37<SmatZ>I know Eye of Beholder
19:38<SmatZ>I would like to finish it once...
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19:38<SmatZ> I finished DM in ~3 days ;)
19:38<TrueBrain>so do that ;)
19:39<SmatZ>I need to code school works at first :-x
19:39<TrueBrain>I am finally done with that :)
19:39<TrueBrain>2 whole weeks of nothingness
19:39<SmatZ>gratz gratz :)
19:39<TrueBrain>but also absolutely no idea what to do in those 2 weeks ... :p
19:40<TrueBrain>waiting for Rubidium :(
19:40<SmatZ>have fun with girls
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19:40<TrueBrain>I did some dancing today
19:40<TrueBrain>it was hard :(
19:40<TrueBrain>some new moves were killing me!
19:41<SmatZ>btw, I am going (with my girlfriend) to Holland this Summer (I hope :)
19:41<TrueBrain>cool :)
19:41<SmatZ>hehe, do you still have to learn? :)
19:41<SmatZ>I really enjoyed my dancing lessons :)
19:41<SmatZ>but after years, I really forgot most of it :(
19:41<TrueBrain>yeah ... doing one of the highest classes in dances like Foxtrot and ChaCha :p
19:41<TrueBrain>today he put a stick between my legs
19:42<TrueBrain>and I had to finish the part without dropping it
19:42<SmatZ>huh :)
19:42<benjamingoodger>I'm sure he did
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19:42<TrueBrain>was a bit insane ;)
19:42<TrueBrain>but okay :) Girls .. sounds like a good plan yes :p
19:42<TrueBrain>and when you come to Holland, don't forget to visit us :)
19:43<SmatZ>:-) I sure won't ... if you will be home :)
19:43<TrueBrain>I will make sure ;)
19:43<SmatZ>I will tell you more when I know the date ;)
19:43<TrueBrain>that is fine :)
19:43<TrueBrain>maybe we can arrange a little meet ;)
19:43<SmatZ>would be great :)
19:44<TrueBrain>my roommates decided to have a party nextdoor, instead of in the living room
19:44<TrueBrain>how annoying ..
19:44<TrueBrain>oh well
19:44<TrueBrain>time to find my bed :)
19:44<TrueBrain>tnx SmatZ, and have a good night all!
19:44<SmatZ>good night, TrueBrain :)
19:44<@Belugas>won't be too hard, TrueBrain. follow the smell path ;)
19:45<@Belugas>then, surprise! the bed!!
19:45*Belugas hides
19:45<@Belugas>in fact, /me goes down with wife and TV
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 11 00:00:16 2008