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#openttd IRC Logs for 2008-12-27

---Logopened Sat Dec 27 00:00:32 2008
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05:17<George>Devs: What are future plans to allow AI to use pass through stations?
05:18<George>When would NOAI go to the trunk?
05:18<@Rubidium>when it's done
05:19<George>I know. Thats why I wrote "PLAN". Do you plan to finish it in a year, two or several months?
05:19<+dihedral>you have NAIL and noai!
05:19<+dihedral>both needs finishing, one will not be finished without the other
05:20<@Rubidium>the initial plan was to get it to trunk before 0.6...
05:21<+dihedral>did it start that early?
05:23<@Rubidium>@commit 9138
05:23<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by truelight :: r9138 branches/noai/ (2007-03-13 12:21:13 UTC)
05:23<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: [NoAI] -Branch: created a branch for a new idea how to handle AIs
05:23<@Rubidium>@commit 12395
05:23<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r12395 branches/0.6/ (2008-03-22 19:48:14 UTC)
05:23<+dihedral>that was earlier than i though
05:23<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: [0.6] -Branch: the long awaited branch so we can introduce new features in trunk before 0.6.0, but not let them destabalize the pending release :)
05:23<@Rubidium>quick math shows more than 375 days
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05:32<+dihedral>how would i best / cleanest call a function after max_companies, or max_spactators was changed?
05:33<+dihedral>would i use the PROC setting in the macro?
05:33<+dihedral>of e.g. SDTC_VAR
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05:47<@Rubidium>that's probably the best... but... it won't be called when loading the config file
05:48<+dihedral>no - that's fine
05:49<+dihedral>i send the values to the client that just joined, and then update if those values should change during a gaime
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06:28<George>Rubidium: I've tried , read some topics, and found, that there are at least 2 AIs (pathzilla and admirals that should work with ARVs)
06:34<George>can a trunk and NoAI be located in one folder and share configs?
06:34<@Rubidium>no and yes
06:36<@Rubidium>they can't be in the same folder, but they can share their openttd.cfg
06:36<@Rubidium>as long as openttd.cfg is in the "personal directory" as per section 4.2 of readme.txt
06:36<George>Rubidium: how can I specify that NoAI sould use GRFs and Config fron trunk directory?
06:37<@Rubidium>then your NewGRFs and original TTD grfs should be in a folder called data in the same personal directory
06:38<George>can I somehow say OTTD that my personal folder located somewhere else, like f:\games\OTTD-data-files
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>only by recompiling yourself
06:39<@Rubidium>if you compile yourself yes, otherwise no
06:39<@Rubidium>unless f:\games\OTTD-data-files is set as working directory
06:41<George>Rubidium: but than it should be the same folder for trunk and noai, and said it is not allowed
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06:42<George>Then, can I place a personal cfg for trunk and NoAI, and specify general datafolder there?
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>location of the executable != working directory
06:42<George>Eddi|zuHause: And what is it?
06:43<George>So, how to place trunk in f:\games\OTTD, NoAI i f:\games\OTTD-NoAI and data folder in f:\games\OTTD-data-files?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>if you make a shortcut link on your desktop, there is one line for "command", there you can put "F:\games\nigtly\openttd.exe", and then there is a line for working directory, there you can put "F:\games\shared" [must contain a "data" directory)
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>but imho it would be easier to just put the data files into "My Documents\Openttd"
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07:00<George>Thank you
07:07<flexd>Is there a easy way of fetching nightly builds?
07:08<@Rubidium>depends on the OS
07:08<flexd>Well, except doing it manually (which is fairly easy) i mean
07:08<flexd>I run Windows Vista on this, ubuntu on my other machine
07:08<@Rubidium>but for almost each OS there is an easy way
07:08<@Rubidium>for vista you could use the autoupdater (somewhere on the forum)
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07:09<@Rubidium>for ubuntu you can make a simple script to download the latest nightly and untar it automagically
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07:10<+dihedral>there is also an auto update bash script
07:11<+dihedral>somewhere in the repository :-P
07:12<Wolf01>oh nice, just to remain in topic, I want to shut down (complete power off, not standby) automatically the pc when not used for 45-60 minutes, I have Ubuntu 8.10
07:15<@Rubidium>got no clue
07:16<Gekz>Wolf01: why the hell would you want to do that
07:16<Gekz>set the computer to suspend in your power manager in 45 minutes
07:17<Gekz>then change the /etc/acpi/scripts/
07:17<Gekz>so it shuts down
07:17<Wolf01>thank you :)
07:17<Gekz>that should work
07:17<Wolf01>(my sister always forget the pc running)
07:18<Gekz>why dont you just ssh in and turn it off then?
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07:18<Wolf01>because I don't know when it is used or not
07:18<Gekz>make a script
07:18<Gekz>that checks every hour
07:18<Gekz>for it's power status
07:20<@Rubidium> ;)
07:22<@Rubidium>probably way to complex though
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07:43<mortal>Rubidium, I don't see why you wouldn't let the clients shut themselves down? rather than the added complexity of server-client communication and authentication challenge and what have we
07:44<mortal>it's a cool setup and all... and after reading just another half screen up I see this is pretty much what gekz said. oh well
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07:45<Gekz>I'm awesome
07:45<Gekz>I could work for IBM
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>"As of this point in time, my sprites are public domain, feel free to use as you see fit, all I ask in return is credit for the original artwork " <- could it be that this phrase is total rubbish?
07:46<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes.
07:46<planetmaker>good morning all :)
07:46<mortal>eddi, if you declare your sprites to be truly PD in your legislation, you can't enforce your wish for credit...
07:46<mortal>no not legislation uhh
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>i mean aside of the questional fact of "releasing" something into the "public domain", if you do, you cannot ask for anything in return, not even credit
07:47<Gekz>I dont think he's saying you have to
07:47<Gekz>he's just saying "Be nice, credit me"
07:47<Gekz>you dont have to follow his orders.
07:47<mortal>yeh I guess
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's like "don't spend all at once"...
07:48<Gekz>you dont have to listen to that either
07:48<Gekz>he's just saying he'd appreciate credit where it is due
07:48<Gekz>I'd happily credit him
07:48<Gekz>if his stuff was good
07:48<Gekz>"Thanks joe for your fucking awesome sprites, you make sex seem boring!"
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>but "public domain" means "due == null"
07:49<Gekz>he doesnt say you MUST credit him
07:50<Gekz>it isnt a requirement
07:50<Gekz>its optional
07:50<Gekz>that's what I"m saying
07:50<Gekz>you're picking at air here
07:50<Gekz>he's "asking"
07:50<Gekz>not "demanding"
07:50<Gekz>Ask = yes/no
07:50<Gekz>no is an option
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>legally, that is the same thing
07:50<Gekz>legally you have no case to be honest
07:50<Gekz>he said it's public domain
07:51<Gekz>thus you dont have to listen to what he says anywhere else
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and i said the phrase is nonsense
07:51<Gekz>it's not nonsense
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07:52<Gekz>it's a human thing to do
07:52<Gekz>to want recognition
07:52<Gekz>let me loop exactly what I said: he wants recognition, he does not demand it
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but then he chose the wrong kind of license
07:52<planetmaker>GekZ: but then a CC-BY is the license of your choice. Do what you want, but give credit
07:52<Gekz>public domain _isnt_ a license
07:53<Gekz>planetmaker: he doesnt say you have to
07:53<planetmaker>Gekz: it is... in US
07:53<Gekz>CC-BY is a demand to give credit
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>you can not give up your right to recognition and then ask for it back...
07:53<Gekz>public domain is the lack of copyright
07:53<Wolf01>gah, I have to find out a more simple password, "password" is too long to type
07:53<Gekz>Eddi|zuHause: doesnt matter if it's public domain, it's obvious who made it
07:53<Gekz>they just dont have any legal control over it anymore
07:53<Gekz>they're still the creator
07:55<Yorick>if (!(flags & DC_EXEC)) return CMD_ERROR; <-- could these things be commented in the future so that it is more clear that it effectively does the same as return()?
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08:02<Wolf01>do you know if there might be problems running the same installation of OTTD in network?
08:03<Yorick>not that I know of
08:03<RockerTimmy>I'm trying to implement programmable signals. I made a struct which contains the rules, but how can I find a struct with only a TileIndex? Or better, where in the landscape can I store a pointer to it?
08:03<Aali>shouldn't be a problem as long as you dont join with two clients at the same time
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>running two instances from the same directory may cause problems with the temporary savegame
08:03<Yorick>RockerTimmy: try m2 ;)
08:03<RockerTimmy>Thank you :D
08:04<Yorick>if it's not used already
08:04<Yorick>docs/landscape*.html ;)
08:04<Wolf01>also with the .cfg placed in the user folder?
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08:04<RockerTimmy>The docs say that a railpiece with signals use 3/4 of m2
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08:06<Yorick>m7 should be free
08:06<Yorick>but is it enough?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>you need a pointer into the memory pool
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. a poolindex must be saved
08:07<Yorick>but he can only have 255 pool items with m7
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>or you make a lookuptable
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>then you don't have to store the index in the map
08:07<Yorick>too slow?
08:08<RockerTimmy>it needs to be accessed every time signals are checked
08:08<Yorick>you can get 4 bits out of m6, and 4 bits out of m2, and 8 bits out of m7, is that enough?
08:09<RockerTimmy>that should be enough for the average game :P
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say go for the easy variant with the 8 bits, adding or reshuffling bits can be done later
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>be sure to create a map accessor function
08:09<Yorick>what if there are more rulesets per signal?
08:10<RockerTimmy>more rulesets per signal, is that useful?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>and imho there is more to it than just modifying signal states... you need to influence pathfinder decisions, too. especially with path signals
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08:11<+dihedral>i spy with my little eye something beginning with 'Y'
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>"eye" does not rhyme with "ypsilon"
08:12<Yorick>and I spy with my little eye something beginning with 'dih' :)
08:12<+dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, hehe
08:13<Yorick>good morning
08:14<+dihedral>Yorick, when was the last time someone told you, you were annoying!
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>before all people that bothered put him on /ignore
08:15<Yorick>dihedral: I don't see how I can be annoying just now and you can't
08:16<+dihedral>Yorick, i can understand it!
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08:18<Yorick>no need to shout :/
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08:26<+dihedral>nobody shouted silly, soppy looking boy
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12:27<edeca>Before I go to the effort of trying, can anybody tell me if the copy&paste patch works with current head?
12:28<+dihedral>depends how much work you invest
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12:28<edeca>So it doesn't apply cleanly?
12:28<+dihedral>i dont know what the last patch revision is
12:30<edeca>Hm, a few failures and a few that apply at offsets
12:30<+dihedral>you would need to do a bit, yes
12:31<edeca>Damn. It's not going to get included in trunk anyway apparently, as it is poorly coded. Pants :)
12:32<edeca>I don't have much time to make it patch if it's never going to be included in trunk
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12:33<+dihedral>wrong approach
12:34<+dihedral>what was the reason for it never getting included?
12:34<+dihedral>poorly coded (+ still 15 todo's open)
12:34<+dihedral>so what would you have to do?
12:34<+dihedral>code it cleanly + get rid of the todo list
12:34<edeca>i.e. start again! :)
12:35<+dihedral>well - you have something to base your work on ;-)
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12:37<+dihedral>nobody would promise it would get included, but the chances would be a bunch higher ;-)
12:38<edeca>Hrm, only 179 lines of patch that get rejected out of 3722
12:38<edeca>Perhaps I'll try later tonight after dinner
12:38<edeca>Then maybe if I have time I could look to improve some of the code, but I really doubt I'll get time :(
12:39*edeca goes for food
12:39<+dihedral>you will need a bit more than just reworking the rejected lines
12:39<+dihedral>a bit of the network stuff has changed
12:40<+dihedral>but you'd soon get the hang of it
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12:42<Eddi|zuHause>why would copy&paste have anything to do with network?
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>let me rephrase that: if it has, it really is poorly coded
12:43<+dihedral>i was thinking of another patch :-P
12:44<+dihedral>then it's gonna be less work :-P
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13:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r11462 /tags/0.6.0-beta1 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2007-11-18 15:14:53 UTC)
13:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Release: 0.6.0-beta1.
13:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: The first major step into the road of releasing 0.6.0, which will give you loads of new features, like newhouses, newindustries, signals and diagonal tracks under bridges, trams, autoslope, oneway roads, half tile slopes and much more. It furthermore contains quite a few performance improvements under certain conditions as well as a very long list of bugreports. If you are really interested, you should (1 more message)
13:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: We OpenTTD developers hope that you will thoroughly test it so we can quickly release the real 0.6.0.
13:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Have fun!
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't it be time for 0.7.0-betas?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>clearly, that one was more than 12 months ago
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13:56<Aali>NoAI and cargodest are in the 0.7 roadmap, and they're not in trunk yet
14:03<Aali>and without those, the only BIG thing in that release would be YAPP, which IMO is not enough
14:07<+dihedral>Aali: who said 0.7 is close to release?
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14:16<Aali>dihedral: are you /ignore'ing Eddi|zuHause at the moment?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>there were several big things that were merged after 0.6.0-beta1, too
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14:21<Aali>ok, next guess, there are no new big features just waiting to be implemented after 0.7, so there's no point in creating a separate branch
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>betas have nothing to do with branching
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>branching is done for RC1
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>betas are a glorified nightly, to get more people testing them
14:25<petern>next release will be
14:25<petern>NOT REALLY!
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15:19<Swallow>Why is the DepotID not saved in the map array, like e.g. the WaypointID?
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17:36<George>Why do towns disallow new helipad with the same conditions as large aiport? I think it would be nice not to take helipads into account when ciunting amount of airports in the town and allow to build more helipads.
17:39<Progman>its called airport noise
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>it's in the advanced settings
17:52<Aali>i think the point was that a heliport shouldn't be treated as a large airport because it does not generate that much noise (and its not that big, either)
17:54<+dihedral>but should bump the noise level - no matter how little
17:54<+dihedral>but if the noise level control is off, perhaps he means that it should not count as an airport then
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: that is the point, yes. but that is also exactly what the setting does
18:03<Aali>I just assumed he knew about that option and didn't want to play with it on
18:03<Aali>(because thats not the only thing it does)
18:08<Wolf01>'night boys
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18:45<George>Noise controll is off, but I can't build helipads if I can't build airport. My question is - shouldn't helipads be NOT taken into account?
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>like already said, turn the setting on if you want more helipads
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>there is no sensible function that can determine if an "aircraft station" counts as a big airport or a tiny heliport, especially if you want to extend that to newgrf ports. that is why the noise levels got introduced
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>the old way is very unlikely to be changed
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21:38<nicfer>Hm, a campaign mode for openttd would be cool
21:40*mincepie buries head in hands
21:44<nicfer>Or maybe a war mod for ottd: transport missiles to launch sites to destroy the enemy and win the game
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>there is definitely never going to be a "war mod"
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22:15<nicfer>How many meters form a TD tile?
22:17<mincepie>50, possibly. I consider it difficult to tell
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>depending on which aspect of the game you consider, something between 25m and 5km
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22:21<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes even outside this range
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>e.g if you take the width of a rail as base, a tile is like 5m wide
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you take the length of a passenger wagon as base, a tile is 50m long
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you take the length of a modern runway as base, a tile is like 500m long
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>and if you take the distance of cities as base, a tile is like 5km long
22:26<Eddi|zuHause>you can put a world map on 2048x2048, or a map of the netherlands, and both would be "in TTD scale"
22:26<nicfer>Oh 'k
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22:28<mincepie>this means that trains often have 200m gaps between stops.
22:28<mincepie>on their scale
22:28<mincepie>or the passenger carriages are a few miles long, on another scale...
22:28<mincepie>for which someone must eventually be made to pay ¬.¬
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>i would really like to have passenger wagons which are 50% or 100% longer
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>a BR 01 + Tender should not be longer than a passenger wagon
22:31<Eddi|zuHause>ideally, a wagon should be two vehicles with a special "do not bend here" flag set
22:31<Eddi|zuHause>so it could be forced to stay together in curves, but split apart in tunnel entrances
22:32<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid graphical glitches
22:32<nicfer>Would be cool for big grids that the holes get automaticly filled with houses
22:34<mincepie>oh, don't worry
22:34<mincepie>the British Housing Developer mod will fix that
22:37<mincepie>if gap_exists(): build_shitty_housing_development(gap); name_shitty_housing_development(local_name,'Meadows');
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 28 00:00:33 2008