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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-01-10

---Logopened Sat Jan 10 00:00:58 2009
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00:04<WhiteRhino>Hmm. Perhaps I should play some Diablo tonight.
00:08<Eddi|zuHause>whatever "night" is at your place
00:08<WhiteRhino>Well, as it's 12:08am, I suppose it's technically Saturday morning now.
00:09<WhiteRhino>I just have to decide between a standard character with which I could later play online or multiplayer, or a character in the Hellfire addon which I also own. >.>
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00:26<WhiteRhino>I think is down. >.>
00:27<goodger>oh well :P
00:29<WhiteRhino>I could still play via lan. It seems I'm having trouble finding a v1.09 patch for the game that's not a dead link.
00:30<WhiteRhino>If the one at FilePlanet doesn't work then I guess I email Blizzard and ask why all the links on their support page are dead. =P
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00:30<goodger>WhiteRhino: suggest you try gameshadow
00:33<goodger>I think I need a new CO detector
00:33<goodger>this one is emitting a faint whistling noise and has "made in west germany" written on it
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00:34<Eddi|zuHause>well, probably it is 20 years old then...
00:34<goodger>also, when I plugged it in this afternoon, it tripped the circuit breaker
00:36<goodger>hmm, apparently the sensor elements are meant to last three years
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00:39<goodger>I am concerned that wikipedia contains advice on how best to commit suicide using carbon monoxide
00:39<goodger>"as carbon monoxide poisoning via car exhaust has become less of a suicide option, there has been an increase in new methods of carbon monoxide poisoning such as burning charcoal or other fossil fuels within a confined space, such as a small room, tent, or car."
00:42<WhiteRhino>That's not advice, that's just information. =P
00:43<goodger>it sounds very much like advice
00:43<goodger>good night
00:43<WhiteRhino>With a busted CO detector, is sleep the best option? >.>
00:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's wikipedia, you can always edit it...
00:43<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: the admins appear to dislike me
00:45<goodger>WhiteRhino: the wood burner on the other side of this wall is not currently running, and I only installed the detector yesterday [after complaining that the new wood-burner might generate CO and I might get poisoned by it _again_]
00:45<WhiteRhino>Ah. Just sayin'. =)
00:45<goodger>I think if the air contained an acutely toxic dose I'd have been knocked out by now
00:45<goodger>but I will buy another detector tomorrow
00:46<goodger>I'm surprised to find that the incidence of fatal CO poisoning is so high
00:46<goodger>anyway, must sleep. night
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04:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14952 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: unify the "can vehicle go to station" tests
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05:00<Alberth>good morning
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05:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14953 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14952): the "available aircraft" list caused a crash
05:42<edeca>dihedral: Heh
05:42<edeca>dihedral: Photoshop? :)
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05:46<Roujin>rubidium: GetStationByTile(this->window_number); <-- the window number is a tile?
05:47<@Rubidium>depends on the window what the exact meaning is
05:47<@petern>cos using the stationid wouldn't make sense ;)
05:48<@Rubidium>petern: yup
05:48<@Rubidium>mixing stationids and depotids == trouble
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>not if you want a chance to unify these between transport type
05:48<@Rubidium>after all Roujin's talking about the depot window
05:48*Alberth fall-through in switch() is confirmed to work
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>plus, an airport may have multiple hangars
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05:49-!-worldemar [~world@] has quit [Quit: An exit status of zero indicates success, and a nonzero value indicates failure.]
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of the most useless quitmessages i have ever seen
05:50<@Rubidium>better than hydra's impossible to fulfill quit message
05:51<Roujin>if an exit status of zero indicates success and a nonzero value indicates failure, an exit status of "an exit status of zero indicates success, and a nonzero value indicates failure" indicates failure, because "an exit status of zero indicates success, and a nonzero value indicates failure" is nonzero.
05:52<Roujin>thus, worldemar failed.
05:53<Alberth>Roujin: under the assumption that there are no other outcomes than success and failure
05:53<@petern>that is what was stated
05:54<Roujin>well, his statement was not only that 0 means success, but also that everything else means failure
05:54<Roujin>there may be other outcomes than success and failure, but they are NOT_REACHED() ;)
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05:54<@Rubidium>but what if it exited without an exit status?
05:54<@Rubidium>e.g. power loss
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me of "the 'finally' clause of a try statement is always exectuted"
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06:01<Alberth>or a non-numeric status
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06:18<edeca>Heh, realistic acceleration rocks. Two trains in a straight line, one has +140 extra bags, the other overtakes it
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06:22<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: non-numeric is also non-zero
06:24<@petern>edeca, what does that have to do with 'realistic' acceleration?
06:26<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately, most languages seem to think so, although not always:
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: because the language definition does not say "if checks for zero-ness"
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>it says "check anything that could vaguely resemble a boolean"
06:28<edeca>petern: I thought realistic acceleration was based on how loaded it was
06:30<dihedral>acceleration does not influence max speed you know :-P
06:30<dihedral>but how fast you can ......... accelerate to it :-P
06:30<edeca>Yes, indeed, both reached full speed in the end
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>what makes you think that "unrealistic" acceleration is not based on how loaded it was?
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06:33<edeca>That's a good point, was unrealistic acceleration based on how loaded it was?
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06:36<TrueBrain>grrr ..... my email client hangs AGAIN :(
06:36<TrueBrain>always on one account ..
06:37<@petern>simply power/weight for original acceleration
06:37<@petern>therefore, a vehicle with less in it will accelerate faster
06:37<@petern>(or rather, have a higher acceleration ;))
06:38<edeca>Ah, I didn't know that :)
06:40<edeca>What does realistic acceleration get based on then? Friction between the pixels? ;)
06:41<@petern>velocity, friction, air drag
06:41<edeca>Hm, that's pretty complicated!
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>it's actually rather simple
06:42<edeca>Cool, "special features: tilt"
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>tilting gives higher speed in curves
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>or at least it is supposed to
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>some vehicle sets also make tilting visible
06:44<edeca>I'm using pikkabirds set at the moment
06:44<edeca>But the Eurostar train has 3 times the power and a higher top speed, so I probably wont bother with pendolinos
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06:50<edeca>Is there any rason a "close airport" style patch hasn't been introduced?
06:52<edeca>s/rason/reason :)
06:53<edeca>Eddi|zuHause: Nobody has written a good one? It's not a feature for trunk?
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07:33<Tim>Good Morning :)
07:33<Tim>In the windows-console, cmd, how can i terminate a process?
07:34<Tim>specifically an endless loop :D
07:35<@Rubidium>shutdown -s -t 1 ?
07:35<Tim>nevermind, found it ;)
07:35<Tim>strg + c
07:35<Tim>a process in the console itself ;)
07:39<@Rubidium>shutdown -s -t 1 doesn't terminate *a* process?
07:39<@Rubidium>and lots of people probably don't know what strg means
07:39<Tim>sorry, ctrl + c ;)
07:40<Tim>And i can't enter shutdown... If it is counting towards infinity :D
07:40<Tim>the console
07:41<Tim>Hm, i am confused... In C++, if i have: int x = 5; for (; x ; x--) { cout << x << endl;}, i do understand that for each loop x decreases by one, but why does it stop if it is zero? The condition for terminating the loop is just "x", right?
07:41<@Rubidium>the last thing printed will be 1
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07:42<Tim>i would expect the conditio nto be x = 0
07:42<Tim>but just x?
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07:44<@Rubidium>x is also an expression
07:45<@Rubidium>even x = 1 is an expression, which might give nice results in loops ;)
07:48<@Rubidium>for (int x = 5; "loop till you drop"; x--) .... is a nice infinite loop
07:48<@Rubidium>unless you use break/return in the loop body ofcourse
07:50<Tim>Yes, i had an almost similar loop already :D
07:50<Tim>That was the one i wanted to stop...
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08:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14954 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#1890]: sharing/cloning/inserting of orders that the/a vehicle (in the shared list) can't go to (wrong station type etc)
08:01*frosch123 prefers commit messages like "fix property xx of feature yy" :/
08:01<@Rubidium>petern: can you now remember what you couldn't remember in FS#1832?
08:02<frosch123>he already remembered, that there are only 256 parts per station
08:02<frosch123>though as TTDP supports 16x bigger stations than OTTD does....
08:03<@Rubidium>TTDP supports 256x256?
08:03<frosch123>yes :) as big as the map
08:03<@Rubidium>that's like... more than the map
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08:04<frosch123>though maybe when you can only build 14x14 parts at once, you cannot reach 256x256
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08:12<TrueBrain>so ... anyone a nice story to tell?
08:14<@Rubidium>@tell >TrueBrain story
08:14<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: I haven't seen >TrueBrain, I'll let you do the telling.
08:15<@Rubidium>@tell TrueBrain story
08:15<TrueBrain>grr @ Rubidium
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08:33<George>frosch123: About yesterdays question of glx. Would it be possible to provide some flag for articulated vehicle, that would prevent their splitting on turnung?
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08:34<+glx>I never asked that
08:34<George>and who it was?
08:34<frosch123>and it is not possible
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08:41<George>Sorry, it was Eddi|zuHause. [01:34:21] <Eddi|zuHause> what i said previously: i believe, what is needed, is a flag/callback/whatever for certain articulated vehicles to specify "no bend", and the drawing code handling them, as drawing them relative to the position of the of the previous vehicle, not on the position of the current vehicle
08:43<George>frosch123: Would there be diagonal roads someday in OTTD?
08:45<George>Good, Then I'l make curvature code based on 2 parts, not 3 parts
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08:59<Wolf01>anybody who wants to help me on sloped stations?
08:59<frosch123>he, did you modify GetFoundation_Station in the mean time?
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09:00<Wolf01>I tried, but with no effects
09:00<frosch123>no effects? I would expect the vehicles to follow the slope
09:01<frosch123>ah, there is also GetSlopeZ_Station
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09:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14955 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix: newgrf station specs didn't get deallocated when building a new station part over them.
09:02<frosch123>well copy the needed stuff from GetSlopeZ_Track and GetFoundation_Track
09:02*Wolf01 waits some ages until VS80 is ready
09:04<Wolf01>it's still not ready
09:05<Wolf01>ok, now it seem to be ready
09:05<Wolf01>3 minutes!
09:08<Wolf01>ok, compiling... let me see if it does work
09:13<Wolf01>good it crashes on start
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09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14956 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf_station.cpp station_cmd.cpp):
09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1832]: building new station parts didn't allocate a new station spec
09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: effectively breaking variable 41. This was due to the limited number of station
09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: specs that we can have per station. This fix makes newly build station parts
09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: create a new spec until one cannot allocate new station specs anymore and it'll
09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: revert to the old behaviour (sharing station specs).
09:39<Tim>How about setting realistic acceleration and forbid 90° turns as standard options?
09:39<Alberth>Tim: forbid 90 degrees turn breaks the ai
09:39<@petern>i! am! here!
09:39<Tim>hm, okay
09:40<FauxFaux>Clearly replace the AI!
09:40<SmatZ>hello petern
09:40<Alberth>FauxFaux: what do you think is the NoAI branch for?
09:41<@petern>Rubidium, i also had a patch that stored the build date for each part individually, but apparently it wasn't want
09:41<SmatZ>petern: did you store the date in the map array?
09:41<@petern>don't be silly :)
09:42<edeca>hello! petern!
09:43<Alberth>SmatZ: we should use a VCS to save map changes :P
09:43<SmatZ>Alberth: do you want a rollback? :-)
09:44<Alberth>yeah, and branching for what-if tests :)
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09:47<Tim> --> Would it only need changing false to true to have Realistic Acceleration as standard if not written else in the openttd.cfg? :)
09:48<@petern>why does it need changing?
09:48<Tim>dunno, it's just a hell lot better with it enabled...
09:49<Tim>And people new to the game might not change it and then wonder what kind of trains we have that can't climb a slope but go around 2*45° corners without losing speed :)
09:49*SmatZ agrees with Tim
09:50<Tim>They can still change it back, i just think it would make a better default setting...
09:50<@petern>i'm fairly sure that trains do lose speed around bends...
09:50*SmatZ agrees with petern
09:51<SmatZ>==> Tim isn't perfectly right in his statements (trains lose speed at each direction change - even in cases where new acc code doesn't cause slowdown), but I like the idea of setting it "true" by default
09:53<Tim>True, i just had a look and they do loose speed, but still they go around very small bends quite fast... And what is really annoying is the slooooow climbing of slopes :)
09:55<Tim>Afk, eating cake :)
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10:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14957 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2516]: Do not abort train movement, when we are just about to reach the end of the platform.
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10:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r14958 /trunk/src/ (7 files):
10:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange [FS#1923]: when checking for unique names, compare only with manually set names
10:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: There are situations that aren't solvable (because of different language files),
10:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: so if the user really wants to have duplicated name, allow him to do so. It
10:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: solves desyncs between server and clients using different languages. It behaves
10:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: the same in SP and MP, so users won't see the different behaviour as a bug (and
10:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: even checking in SP could be worked around by the user).
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11:04<dihedral>SmatZ: that looks like a nice commit :-)
11:04*dihedral hugs TrueBrain
11:04<dihedral>there there
11:05<SmatZ>dihedral: not very nice, but the only consistent solution :-/
11:05<dihedral>a solution _is_ nice
11:05<dihedral>phew - i was about to give you a hug too :-D
11:06*dihedral chuckles
11:06<SmatZ>why didn't you?
11:07<Aali>frosch123: your fix for FS#2516 seems to have had an unwanted side-effect
11:08<dihedral>because i thought of TrueBrain - he does not feel comfortable with "man hugs"
11:09<@Rubidium>dihedral should really read the manual entry for hugs
11:09<frosch123>Aali: what did I broke?
11:09<Aali>frosch123: trains now fit in the station just fine, but on the way out they "jump" forward and become lost (I get the warning message)
11:09<dihedral>Rubidium: :-P
11:09<Aali>smaller trains dont become lost but still do the jump
11:10<frosch123>this "jump" is weird
11:12<Aali>you can see it clearly by reversing a train while it is loading
11:13<Aali>when you reverse it, it doesn't fit in the station anymore
11:13<frosch123>yeah, the funny thing is, trains never drove to the end of the platform (since r1, so like since TTD), just that it did not matter, when the last wagon was long enough
11:14<TrueBrain>Rubidium: is there already a 'ltstr' (for std::map) on a global level?
11:15<SmatZ>FS#2516 should be invalid then, there should always be a space before the train
11:15<SmatZ>when in station
11:15<SmatZ>but not when in front of a signal...
11:15<SmatZ>people need to know how long the train will be when waiting for green
11:15<SmatZ>and also how long the station should be
11:16<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: no idea
11:16<@Rubidium>not in OpenTTD itself AFAIK
11:16<TrueBrain>Rubidium: mind if I add one in stdafx.h or so?
11:16<SmatZ>when waiting for green signal, the train is usually few ticks before the tile end, right, frosch123?
11:16<TrueBrain>I keep on defining it now in several files :)
11:16<TrueBrain>struct ltstr { bool operator()(const char *s1, const char *s2) const { return strcmp(s1, s2) < 0; } };
11:16<TrueBrain>I have 3 of those in different .hpp files now
11:16<SmatZ>no no blah
11:16*SmatZ hides
11:16<TrueBrain>multiple defines to avoid silly include-trees
11:17<frosch123>SmatZ: it just suppressed the reversing
11:17<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: do you really need std::map, or is SmallMap enough too?
11:18<TrueBrain>typedef std::map<const char *, int, ltstr> SettingValueList;
11:18<TrueBrain>you tell me
11:18<@Rubidium>looks like it, as long as you don't depend on a sorted key list
11:19<TrueBrain>if (key == this->data[i].first) return this->data[i].second; <- doesn't really work for strings ;)
11:19<TrueBrain>so no, SmallMap is not enough
11:20<@Rubidium>hmm... true
11:21<TrueBrain>you can introduce a SmallStringMap
11:21<TrueBrain>but I don't see how that would be better than std::map
11:21<SmatZ>TrueBrain: smaller code and compile time
11:22<TrueBrain>ah :)
11:22<TrueBrain>so make me a SmallStringMap, and I will be more than happy to use it :)
11:22<TrueBrain>just runtime would be slower
11:22<TrueBrain>(lineair search instead of optimized search)
11:22<SmatZ>TrueBrain: depends how big the set is :)
11:23<TrueBrain>if n > 2, that already holds
11:23<SmatZ>but if you used std::string (.....), (key == this->data[i].first) would work for strings ;)
11:23<SmatZ>are you sure std::map has special versions for const char *?
11:23<TrueBrain>I dislike using std::string :)
11:23<TrueBrain>for many many reasons :)
11:24*dihedral is gonna make lots 'n lots of food.......
11:24<SmatZ>so do I ;-)
11:24<dihedral>all mine!
11:24<TrueBrain>it doesn't need special version, as you give the sorter function
11:24<SmatZ>true true :)
11:24<SmatZ>not function, but a class
11:24<SmatZ>which is weird :)
11:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14959 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings.cpp): -Fix [FS#2508]: wrong defaults for service interval when switching between service interval in days and service interval in percentages.
11:25<TrueBrain>the () operator of the class
11:25<TrueBrain>which tells you how it is implemented :)
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11:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14960 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: add some this where appropriate (Alberth)
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11:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14961 /trunk/src/ (42 files in 3 dirs): -Update: remove the string from r14960 from the other languages too.
11:30<TrueBrain>but any alternative is welcome, else I would like to put the ltstr at some more global spot
11:30<TrueBrain>core/stdmap.hpp ;)
11:31<TrueBrain>core/stdstringmap.hpp :p
11:31<Alberth>Rubidium: which string?
11:31<@Rubidium>the warning ;)
11:31<SmatZ>TrueBrain: core/smallstring.hpp ;-)
11:31<@Rubidium>oh... /me is messing up ;)
11:32<TrueBrain>that requires me implementing a SmallStringMap ;)
11:32<@Rubidium>ah well... the number's close enough
11:32<Alberth>no svn rollback :)
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11:38<Swallow>Out of curiosity: why is MAX_SPECLIST an enum instead of a static const? (newgrf_station.cpp)
11:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14962 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: add the concept of patch entries and patch (sub) pages
11:40<TrueBrain>enums are so much better :)
11:40<TrueBrain>that question can be generalized I guess :)
11:41<@Rubidium>maybe because there's no concept of static const in C?
11:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14963 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remember what entry was clicked instead of the index (Alberth)
11:42<frosch123>hmm, that "jump" is normal behaviour when reversing at line end, so not introduced by r14957
11:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14964 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: hide the length of a patch page behind a function (Alberth)
11:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14965 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remember the patch entry instead of the page and index of the entry for handling the "input box" (Alberth)
11:47<SmatZ>hmm isn't there a command switch for 'find' to stop after the first match? :-x
11:48<@Rubidium>|head -n 1?
11:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14966 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: simplify and generalise finding patch entries (Alberth)
11:51<SmatZ>Rubidium: yeah, but it still takes the time until it scans whole filesystem :-/
11:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14967 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: split the drawing of the window into several smaller functions (Alberth)
11:52<SmatZ>Rubidium: that's it, thanks!
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12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14968 /extra/ottd_grf/split/ (openttdgui.nfo openttdgui.pcx): [OTTD_GUI] -Add: + and - in circle sprites (Alberth)
12:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14969 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make drawing trees possible (Alberth)
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12:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14970 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Change: move all (patch) settings to a single "page" (Alberth)
12:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14971 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: the colour of the patch page text so it becomes more visible as it changed background (Alberth)
12:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14972 /trunk/src/lang/ (42 files in 2 dirs): -Update: do r14971 also for the non-English strings (Alberth)
12:26<Wolf01>seem that Rubidium is busy on applying a great patch
12:27<frosch123>revolutionising the gui :)
12:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14973 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: recursively fold subpages (Alberth)
12:28<Wolf01>frosch123, I tried playing around with the GetFoundations_Station function, but also if I tell it to return FOUNDATION_NONE doesn't change anything o_O
12:29<frosch123>then you should also take a look at DrawTile_Station
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12:29<frosch123>esp. where DrawFoundation is called
12:29<frosch123>maybe also in newgrf_stations
12:29<frosch123>and keep watching for the walls on the backside of south-neighboured tiles
12:30<Wolf01>I don't think is only a drawing issue, but also the train still fall down from the step between the 2 station tiles
12:30<frosch123>that should be GetSlopeZ_Station
12:30<@Rubidium>and prolly CanEnterTile or whatever it's called
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12:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14974 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings_gui.cpp): -Change: reorder/reorganise the entries of the settings window (Alberth)
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12:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r14975 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14957): Do not immediatelly move the train when leaving the station and the destination is not yet known.
12:40<frosch123>Aali: today is the day of experimental commits, so try to break it again :p
12:40<Aali>never thought you'd ask :P
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12:44<Tim>Cool, a new order for all the settings *thumbsup*
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12:52<Tim>Is it like this one? As you said it is from alberth :)
12:53<@petern>think i preferred the tabs :p
12:54<Tim>That is to be in Tabs, which are called according to the headlines (that was the suggestion)
12:55<Tim>Under WinXP, do i need anything else than TortoiseSVN to get the source (and maybe apply patches) and MinGW to compile the game myself?
12:56<energetic>maybe buildootd or any other ide supprting c++
12:56<energetic>openttd-usefull can be usefull to.
12:57<Alberth>Tim: not exactly, that file included difficulty & options too.
12:58<Tim>So only the advanced-setting-tab-layout was changed to a single-page-layout?
12:58<Tim>Ah right, BuildOTTD, forgot about that :)
12:58<Tim>But can you do it with MinGW too?
12:59<Tim>Since i have that installed anyway...
12:59<Alberth>yep, with a tree-view for the settings
12:59<@Rubidium>mingw can compile ottd
13:00<@Rubidium>it needs some libaries though
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13:01<Tim>ah, just found it here
13:03<Wolf01>OH! Finally a difference! the train is below the station and the station is over the foundations
13:05<Aali>this new settings gui will take a while to get used to..
13:05<Aali>I think we'll be better off though, the old interface gets very messy with so many options on the same page
13:07<Wolf01>AHA!!!! it works it works!!!!!
13:08<Wolf01>now I need only a sloped station graphic
13:09<Wolf01>thank you frosch123 for pointing me in the right direction :D
13:10<Aali>frosch123: oops, even short trains get lost now
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13:11<Aali>no improvement at all :/
13:12<frosch123>what means "short train"
13:12<Aali>doesn't cover the entire platform
13:13<frosch123>works for me :/
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r14976 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: move more code from AIController to AIInstance
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: redirect 2 more functions to their right layer
13:13<Aali>using PBS?
13:14<frosch123>drive-through- or terminal-station?
13:14<Aali>ah, it works without PBS
13:14<frosch123>oh yes, now I see
13:14<Aali>terminus stations
13:14<frosch123>without pbs it works, yes :/
13:15<SmatZ>Wolf01: nice :)
13:15<Aali>with PBS everyone gets lost
13:15<frosch123>so, what is better? current behaviour, or before r14957 ?
13:17<@petern>behaviour that works :D
13:18<Aali>without r14957 these trains will block the tile before the station, which is clearly wrong
13:18<Aali>but they shouldn't get lost just because they're leaving a station either :)
13:18<frosch123>well, the problem is the train starts driving before it has found a path or whatever
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13:20<Aali>ideally, I would also like to see the reversing problem fixed, but that's not nearly as important
13:20<Aali>if you can make the trains not lose themselves that would be fine :P
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13:40<Zuu>Probably already mentioned, but i find it funny someone want to download MS Paint. (Graphics Forum)
13:40<goodger>that app remained unchanged for...oh...
13:40<goodger>12 years
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13:41<Zuu>And many students insist on argumenting of how nice the program is, while I'm pretty alone using a vector program to draw my figures for my technical reports. :s
13:42<goodger>yeah, it's pretty horrendous
13:43<Zuu>Okay for cropping screenshots and copy-paste to word but not for making illustrations from scratch.
13:43<goodger>well, people do use it to create illustrations from scratch
13:44<goodger>but only in the same way that people race double-decker buses round racing circuits
13:44<blathijs>goodger: I heard the office team has been working on Paint and it will get a "ribbon" in Windows 7
13:44<goodger>blathijs: it doesn't need a ribbon, it has only three features
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13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r14977 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-01-10 18:44:17
13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 4 fixed by khaloofah (4)
13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 26 fixed by tucalipe (26)
13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 3 fixed by Ar4i (3)
13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 35 fixed by tifached (35)
13:45<blathijs>goodger: Perhaps it'll be a small ribbon then :-p
13:45<Sacro>blathijs: it already has it
13:45<blathijs>it has?
13:45<Sacro>got it in build 6780
13:45<blathijs>Isn't build 6780 of Windows 7?
13:46<blathijs>Ah, yeah that's what I meant
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13:46<Sacro>goodger: jynx
13:47<goodger>two tabs kind of ruins the idea of the ribbon IMO
13:48<Zuu>Yea, maybe it has some hided tabs you can enable in settings like the Development tab for Word.
13:49<goodger>the trouble with the ribbon is that it's a good idea with a horrific implementation
13:49<Zuu>Would be interesting if they equipped Paint with VBA macros :p
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13:51<+glx>easier to draw fractals ;)
13:51<goodger>would be interesting if they equipped paint with image-editing tools
13:51<+glx>does it have real png support now?
13:51<goodger>god knows
13:54<Zuu>Yesterday I had a look on batch/cmd scripting for renaming a bunch of files from a video camera so a directory prefix get added to the file names. Actually I was impressed by the documentation they had for the FOR command. Took me only 2 hours to write the script, with limited knowledge of batch/cmd scripting.
13:55<+glx>using powershell or standard cmd ?
13:55<Zuu>standard cmd
13:55<Steve-N>would have taken like 2 seconds with a proper sh
13:56<Steve-N>(ok 2 minutes with the proper man pages with it)
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13:56<Prof_Frink>Steve-N: ABS, not man pages.
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13:59<Zuu>If you know perl good enough just rename is sufficent in Linux.
14:00<Steve-N>right, anything but a dos script will do
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14:04<Zuu>Sure, but have you actually taken a look on it. I grew up with Mac OS (6-7-8 or so) and have mostly only heard people bashing the batch script format. But after spent some time on it it proved to be far better than I've heard about it. Sure different from sh/bash/zsh/etc. but not impossible to get things done either.
14:07<Steve-N>sure, made quite some $@%%@$ batch scripts on machines on which nothing else was possible/allowed. it totally sucks. still is full of bugs and every new dos version introduces a new incompatibility with previous versions.
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14:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14978 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: simplify the control flow of the OnClick of the settings window
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14:23<Wolf01>no nightly this evening?
14:24<@petern>probably still compiling
14:24<@Rubidium>it takes roughly half an hour to compile all targets
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14:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14979 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp): -Fix: Disable a NewGRF from loading if it contains multiple Action 8s
14:31<@petern>Wolf01: it's there now
14:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14980 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Change: shuffle around some more settings to make them more logically grouped/ordered
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15:17<Wolf01>argh! refitting a train cost more than its year income
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15:23<Wolf01>does anybody want to try my latest wonderful patch?
15:24<Wolf01>(and I think that topic should fit more in the development forum)
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15:29<Zuu>Sloped stations that's something new :)
15:30<@petern>diagonal stations was cooler :p
15:33<Wolf01>maybe next time
15:33<Zuu>That I must have missed, don't remember seeing a diagonal station patch.
15:34<@petern>it was a few years ago :)
15:38<@petern>err, what
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15:38<@petern>*** petern has joined the game
15:38<@petern>*** Game paused (connecting client)
15:38<@petern>*** Game unpaused (client connected)
15:38<@petern>*** Game unpaused (enough players)
15:38<@petern>dbg: [net] Closed client connection 7
15:38<@petern>*** petern has left the game (connection lost)
15:38<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:38<@petern>*** Game paused (not enough players)
15:38<@petern>Error: [net] Trying to execute a packet in the past!
15:38<@petern>openttd: /home/petern/ottd/nightly/src/openttd.cpp:144: void error(const char*, ...): Assertion `0' failed.
15:39<frosch123>Aali: you are good in breaking by stuff, wanna try again? :p
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15:39<@petern>that's on a dedicated server... how can it execute a packet if it's paused? heh
15:40<Nite_Owl>Oops - sorry petern - I did not mean to interrupt your lack of game
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15:43<@petern>oh dear
15:44<@petern>my server is desynced
15:44<@petern>on a brand new game
15:44<@petern>with no vehicles
15:44<@petern>and no company
15:44<@petern>and no newgrfs
15:46<@petern>and it messes with pause
15:48<dihedral>[21:39] <petern> that's on a dedicated server... how can it execute a packet if it's paused? heh <- CMD_COMPANY_CTRL
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15:49<dihedral>try joining as spectator instead of starting a new company :-P
15:50<Aali>frosch123: not bad
15:50<frosch123>haha, so it survived the first 5 minutes :p
15:50<Aali>trains do get lost when you reverse them in-station with PBS
15:50<Aali>but all the other issues seem to be gone
15:51<@petern>dihedral: how would that help?
15:52<frosch123>Aali: at least that is no new issue \o/
15:53<Aali>and its only an issue if you trigger it on purpose :P
15:53<dihedral>that is like the only docommand i know of, that runs when the game is paused
15:53<dihedral>well - and the unpause
15:53<@petern>that is blatantly untrue
15:54<@petern>loads of commands work when paused
15:54<@petern>and this is the server failing
15:54<@petern>it seems if you have a server running
15:54<@petern>with a client connected
15:55<@petern>and then load an existing game or start a new one, the client will try to reconnect (why does it do that?) and the server will from then on not work properly until it's restarted
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15:55<@petern>it needs the client to reconnect to cause it to mess up, though
15:56<@petern>if you disconnect first, then newgame, then connect, it's fine
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15:56<dihedral>uh - that's new then
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15:57<dihedral>because with 0.5.3 i never used to see issues with that
15:57<dihedral>again - it would be interesting to see if that happens, when you are spectator
15:58<dihedral>because then your client rejoins to spectator and not some invalid company
16:00<@petern>i was spectator
16:00<@petern>tried both
16:00<@petern>and yes, of course it's new
16:00<@petern>why would i run a 0.5.3 server?
16:01<dihedral>when you had clients connected and you ran newgame they would reconnect!
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16:04<OwenS>Hmm - I wonder how difficult it would be for me to write a hardware accelerated blitter
16:05<@petern>using what method?
16:05<OwenS>It would firstly be able to offload palette lookups
16:07<OwenS>All 8-bit textures would be uploaded as GL_LUMINANCE textures, then a shader would look up their values in a 256 entry 1D texture using GL_NEAREST mapping (to avoid minification & interpolation artefacts)
16:07<+glx>petern: this behaviour happened before but it has been fixed IIRC
16:07<+glx>maybe recent changes broke it again
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16:08<OwenS>Using the correct projection matrix, you could continue to consider the screen as a (0...width-1, 0...height-1) pixel screen then just use GL_QUADs to render sprites
16:10<frosch123>aren't there already two opengl blitters?
16:12<OwenS>Theres apparently an experimental OpenGL blitter
16:15<@petern>there are two, yes
16:15<@petern>that one and mine
16:15<el_en>or even three
16:15<@petern>or four!
16:16*OwenS can't help but wonder what their progress is like
16:16<el_en>a coworker of mine made one back in 2004, and it hasn't been released in public.
16:17<@petern>they falter when zoomed out
16:18<OwenS>O_o in what way?
16:18<OwenS>(I'd test but it seems it's not in my (custom compiled) nightly)
16:20<@petern>very slow
16:21<OwenS>I'd assume they may be hitting the graphics card's batch limitation :s
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16:28<dihedral>oh c'mon, you could run the entire app on todays graphics cards :-P
16:29<TrueBrain>dihedral: make a patch for that :)
16:29<TrueBrain>petern: I made one too :) Makes 4 ;)
16:31<OwenS>dihedral: Graphics cards suck at if()s :p
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16:58<dihedral>TrueBrain: not quite my field of .... expertise :-P
16:59<goodger>actually, a recent graphics card is probably more powerful than most PCs in use today
17:00<OwenS>goodger: Not really. GPUs aren't turing complete
17:00<OwenS>Well, they are, but theyre turing tarpits ;-)
17:00<+glx>they are dedicated to one task only
17:01<dihedral>goodger: so you average computer's power of those in use to be < 800 MHz?
17:01<OwenS>dihedral: My GPU is 500Mhz. But it has 96 cores ;-)
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17:01<OwenS>And GPUs are VERY SIMD
17:02<OwenS>The reason why branches are a very bad idea on GPUs is because it can't parallelize the shader nearly as well
17:02<goodger>dihedral: speaking in terms of TFLOPS
17:02<goodger>does your desktop PC deliver 1.5 TFLOPS by itself?
17:02<goodger>new graphics cards do
17:02<dihedral>the one i have at work? :-P
17:03<OwenS>goodger: Yes. But it's integer performance is probably abysmal
17:05<goodger>OwenS: likely. the power remains
17:05<goodger>hello vraa
17:05*goodger waves
17:05<Aali>goodger: do you brush your teeth with a chainsaw?
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17:06<goodger>Aali: no, but the chainsaw's motor still has more power than the toothbrush's
17:06<Aali>yes, but that power is useless for the task at hand
17:07<OwenS>New graphics cards have good integer performance, but still suffer more from branches than a 32-level pipeline Pentium 4 - and thats saying something!
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17:16<dihedral> <- check out the voting options :-D
17:16<dihedral>esp the second one
17:17<goodger>WTF does "no,later" mean?
17:17<Zuu>I've never seen the "don't" GRF :)
17:17-!-FR^2 [] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by caffein depletion...]
17:18<Nite_Owl>The forums have hit a new level of funny lately
17:18<frosch123>goodger: I thought you were the native-speaking one :p
17:18<goodger>frosch123: precisely :P
17:18<frosch123>but yes, the poll is hillarious :)
17:19<goodger>"no, later" is usually considered to mean "do it later, rather than now" --- but this makes no sense as a poll response :S
17:19<frosch123>perhaps you are too busy with playing with other newgrfs, so you cannot survice yet another newgrf to play with :p
17:21<goodger>that makes even less sense :P
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17:28<George>frosch123: Would it be hard to implement FS2521?
17:29<frosch123>no, I just wondered whether it is correct to add it to that variable. i.e. others would want to get an uphill/downhill bit
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17:46<TrueBrain>night dihedral
17:47<Nite_Owl>later dihedral
17:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14981 /branches/noai/ (15 files in 5 dirs):
17:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: reworked how AI settings were stored in Settings (partly based on patch by Yexo)
17:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: introduced an AIConfig layer, which keeps track of AI settings (partly based on patch by Yexo)
17:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: reworked most of the codeflow regarding above subjects (partly based on patch by Yexo)
17:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14982 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai.cpp: [NoAI] -Codechange: cut down on the includes
17:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14983 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (ai.h ai_config.hpp api/ai_controller.hpp): [NoAI] -Codechange: prepare for rename
17:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14984 /branches/noai/ (21 files in 5 dirs):
17:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: renamed ai.h to ai.hpp (we are C++ after all)
17:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: renamed ai.cpp to ../saveload/ai_sl.cpp, as that was what it was doing
17:59<George>frosch123: of cause using other var is not bad too
18:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14985 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): paint me yellow and call me a banana, I forgot MSVC again (oh dear ...)
18:00<TrueBrain>1 commit every 2 minutes .. I wonder if I can keep that up :p
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>please do that
18:03*TrueBrain starts to make oneline-commits :p
18:03-!-mikl [] has quit [Quit: mikl]
18:03<TrueBrain>enough code-changing for one day ... VERY dull I can tell you ... most boring job ever ...
18:04<frosch123>[00:03] <TrueBrain> 1 commit every 2 minutes .. I wonder if I can keep that up :p <- you won't keep up with finding names of fruits
18:04<TrueBrain>frosch123: you would be suprised ;)
18:05<TrueBrain>never underestimate the creativity of a madman :)
18:05-!-Dred_furst` [] has joined #openttd
18:06<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: start with mabolo ;)
18:06<TrueBrain>weird piece of fruit
18:07<frosch123>QUESTION to the channel: did anyone ever assigned serviceintervals to individual vehicles?
18:07<+glx>I even don't do it generally
18:08<TrueBrain>VERY VERY long ago :)
18:08<TrueBrain>but then the default was 120, and no way to change that ;)
18:08<@Rubidium>frosch123: technically yes, in the "mood" of the question I'd've to say no
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i once tried to set them all higher when breakdowns were off
18:09<@Rubidium>conditional age order + service order + autoreplace - breakdowns == autoreplace when the vehicle gets 'old'
18:09<frosch123>I can only remember that I was several times quite annoyed that changing the default interval does not apply to all vehicles
18:10<frosch123>then i got uses to setting it to 800 days and use force-depots or whatever they are called
18:12-!-Dred_furst [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:14<TrueBrain>I ahve to say, I am suprised you can still manage it per vehicle :)
18:14<TrueBrain>200 trains .. haha :)
18:15<frosch123>would someone notice, if that would be removed :p
18:16<TrueBrain>doubtful; but why would you want to do that?
18:16<@Rubidium>yes... your friend from and then he'd have a 6th point
18:16<frosch123>6th point, sounds like my recent post :p
18:17<@Rubidium>but then, who cares about him
18:17<@Rubidium>it's always interesting how wrong people can sometimes be
18:19<TrueBrain>makes me still wonder why someone would want to remove it :) Is it in your way? :p
18:19-!-tom0004 [~Tom@] has quit [Quit:]
18:19<frosch123>however, TrueBrain: troublesome is changing percentage/time-interval when there are already vehicles built, as well as changing it from disabled to enabled
18:20<TrueBrain>fair enough :)
18:20<Roujin>how about a button for resetting it to default again?
18:21<Roujin>like you can now reset names of towns, stations etc. to default?
18:21<Roujin>would that also solve your problem?
18:21<frosch123>though percentage... how many in this channel know whether service-percentage means reliability dropping by or to the specified relative or absolute amount
18:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14986 /trunk/src/timetable_cmd.cpp: -Doc: small error in a comment (PhilSophus)
18:22<TrueBrain>I always assumed it meant that if the reliability is below N%, it would service itself :p
18:22<frosch123>so "to" and "absolute": both wrong :p
18:23<TrueBrain>haha :)
18:23<TrueBrain>so a failure by design ;)
18:23<Roujin>but speaking about removing stuff.. now after the restructuring of the advanced settings window (and I made a screenshot of it and added information to the wiki), I noticed some options that could in my opinion easily be removed
18:24<Roujin>e.g. show vehicle speed in status bar
18:24<Roujin>who would want to disable that? :/
18:24*frosch123 is always surprised how many options are already now present in the gui :/
18:24<TrueBrain>people :)
18:24<Roujin>or Always show long date in the status bar
18:24<TrueBrain>there can't be enough ;)
18:24<@Rubidium>moar settings!
18:24<TrueBrain>MORE MORE MORE MORE!
18:25<TrueBrain>we want to outdo TTDp! :)
18:25<frosch123>why are my typos always logical inverting?
18:25<goodger>frosch123: sod's law
18:25<Roujin>why the heck would someone want to have only the month and year while unpaused, and the day only when paused?
18:25<@Rubidium>because (s)he wants to play TTD
18:26<Roujin>okay, that was TTD behavior.. but hey, it's an improvement
18:26<frosch123>00:28] <Roujin> why the heck would someone want to have only the month and year while unpaused, and the day only when paused? <- is that a setting oO
18:26<TrueBrain>haha :)
18:26<TrueBrain>welcome frosch123, in the world of endless settings :)
18:26<Roujin>frosch123: IIRC that's the behavior when you deactivate "Always show long date in the status bar"
18:26<frosch123>ah well, I read it as "do not show month and year, but only day" when paused :p
18:27<TrueBrain>I believe I have almost all settings ACTIVE
18:27<TrueBrain>.. :p
18:27<+glx>even the mouse related ones?
18:28<TrueBrain>almost ;)
18:28<Roujin>Rubidium: Since when does OpenTTD have the same principle as TTDPatch - "If the player wants he can disable everything so that he plays vanilla TTD"
18:28*glx should start openttd to see how is the "new" GUI
18:28<frosch123>[00:29] <TrueBrain> I believe I have almost all settings ACTIVE <- but only because you play noai :p
18:28<TrueBrain>Roujin: from origin?
18:29<TrueBrain>frosch123: I never played NoAI :$
18:29<TrueBrain>I wouldn't know how AdmiralAI behaves ...
18:29<TrueBrain>I just noticed I have 50% of the settings OFF in fact ..
18:29<TrueBrain>(well, of interface)
18:29<+glx>Roujin: at least you can do that at runtime
18:29<TrueBrain>and Inflation is off :p
18:29<Zuu>glx: I just started OpenTTD for the same reason, what a refreshing thing...
18:29<TrueBrain>the rest is all on :)
18:30<TrueBrain>glx: good idea :)
18:30*glx needs to redo some translations ;)
18:31<frosch123>or increase the default width :p
18:31<Roujin>There are more serious changes to vanilla TTD than displaying the full date when unpaused, or displaying the speed of a vehicle in its window, that are not disable-able.
18:31<+glx>no some just look silly
18:31<Eddi|zuHause><Roujin> Rubidium: Since when does OpenTTD have the same principle as TTDPatch - "If the player wants he can disable everything so that he plays vanilla TTD" <- since elrails got introduced, and people revolted against the fact that disabling elrails was a cheat, not a setting
18:31<Zuu>Will need some time to get used to, but interesting and refreshing change of the advanced settings window.
18:31<Roujin>e.g. the new airports
18:31<+glx>but I did them without knowing how it would look
18:31<TrueBrain>Roujin: don't use them ;)
18:31<TrueBrain>simply enough ;)
18:32<Roujin>Will the old ai build new airports?
18:32<TrueBrain>don't talk about the old AI please
18:32<Roujin>but I want to play vanilla TTD, with a vanilla TTD AI...
18:33<TrueBrain>fuck you :)
18:33<Zuu>I would like to suggest some visual spacing under a open group of settings.
18:33<goodger>also *slaps TrueBrain's wrist*
18:33<frosch123>"Automatically build semaphores before: 1600" <- my favorite setting :)
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>Roujin: you can always reimplement the old ai as a new ai
18:34<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no you can't
18:34<frosch123>no, it would bankrupt
18:34<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: nope, impossible
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>that's a different issue :p
18:34<TrueBrain>no, you simply can't
18:34<TrueBrain>cheating no longer is an option :)
18:34-!-Roujin_ [] has joined #openttd
18:35<Zuu>TrueBrain: Well, player can cheat, so why shouldn't AI be able to use the Cheat window? ;)
18:35<+glx>Zuu: cheat window doesn't prevent you to pay for terraforming
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: the ai used different cheats
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>like terraforming for free
18:36<Zuu>Yea I know, but getting lot of money would be almost the same.
18:36<frosch123>though you could call it "seismology AI" in memory of one of the nicest bug reports :)
18:36<@Rubidium>free +60 station rating or so
18:36<Zuu>Rubidium: That one would be harder with the player available cheats.
18:38-!-vraa [] has joined #openttd
18:38<Zuu>hmm, but a AI that uses coop-style money makers, to be able to play as the old AI :)
18:38<Roujin_>anyway, my point is.. there are a bunch of settings that bring only a benefit when activated, and the only reason I can imagine for deactivating those is for having a "nostalgic TTD feel", and those could imo at least be removed from the gui
18:39<Zuu>Or Roujin_ Or have a nostalgic category maybe?
18:39<Roujin_>can still leave it in the .cfg for those hypothetical TTD nuts :)
18:40<Roujin_>(thesis: those who care about such will always stay with TTDPatch anyways :P)
18:40<TrueBrain>I think Zuu has a nice idea there yes
18:40<TrueBrain>put it in their own category :)
18:40<frosch123>"drawing of high bridgepillars" is not even a nostalgic patch option
18:40<frosch123>it is more like a debug option
18:41-!-ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:41-!-Roujin [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:42<TrueBrain>8bpp-debug blitter is a nice debug option ;)
18:42<frosch123>it should be the default on 1st april
18:42<Roujin_>Another candidate is imo "Enable building of very long trains".
18:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r14987 /branches/noai/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp saveload/oldloader.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): compile failure
18:43<frosch123>Roujin_: you can also change it into a configurable length
18:43<Zuu>Roujin_: But disabling that one can have a point in MP.
18:43<frosch123>though you would need to remove the old autoreplace hack
18:43<Zuu>Though I would rather limit it by setting station spread to something small.
18:43<Roujin_>Zuu: I see your point, but then it should be a configurable option like frosch123 just mentioned
18:44<Zuu>yea frosch123 has a point there.
18:44<Roujin_>frosch123: what's about that hack?
18:45<frosch123>the setting limits the number of vehicles, not counting articulated parts, and not caring about vehicle length
18:45<frosch123>i.e. I would expect the train length to be limited, instead of the number of wagons
18:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r14988 /branches/noai/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): makedepend failure
18:46-!-ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
18:46<Roujin_>and that would be significantly harder because of newgrfs and callbacks and all that I guess..
18:46<frosch123>not really anymore
18:48<TrueBrain>I feel a patch coming up :)
18:48<Roujin_>oh? I'd have guessed that it is impossible to guess the length of a wagon before actually buying it and attaching it to the train
18:48<frosch123>Roujin_: the same is done for wagon removal :)
18:48*goodger has an idea for a global warming patch that increases the sea level every 10 years
18:48-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:49<Zuu>I just got the idea to put a search box on the patch window, but I guess I soon become mr Search. :p
18:49<OwenS>goodger: What do you do then when it's at level 16? :P
18:49<Roujin_>OwenS: game over, everybody loses.
18:49<Zuu>OwenS: Install the more height levels patch
18:49<TrueBrain>games of 160 yeras
18:50<Roujin_>you should set it up so that it reaches level 16 exactly at 2050.
18:50<Roujin_>that would then serve as explanation why the game "ends" in 2050 ;)
18:50<OwenS>The city i'm working on in #ottdc would just have a couple of skyscrapers above the water level (IRL) :P
18:51<goodger>OwenS: you've got a value for the height of a TTD heightlevel then?
18:51<TrueBrain>bah ... then you download a random movie thinking: this should proof interesting ... and after 2 minutes you notice: I have already seen this one!!
18:51<TrueBrain>I hate that ..
18:51<OwenS>goodger: Judging by the heighto the skyscrapers vs hills :p
18:52<Roujin_>frosch123: then why is it impossible to guess the cost prior to actually buying it? key word NOTEST and such..
18:52<frosch123>[00:49] <Roujin_> and that would be significantly harder because of newgrfs and callbacks and all that I guess.. <- though vehicles changing their length on refit could cause headache
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: serves you right for downloading a movie :p
18:52<frosch123>Roujin_: it is? only in 0.6, or?
18:52<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I guess ..
18:53<frosch123>Roujin_: or do you mean when the train is outside of a depot?
18:53*goodger is amused by latest copyright infringement advertisements
18:53<frosch123>i.e. the fs#"weird autoreplace behaviour"
18:54<OwenS>My 1TB HD is rapidly filling up with ripped DVDs =S (Raw rips that is - left in their original MPEG-2)
18:54<goodger>OwenS: time to whip out the old ffmpeg then...
18:55<goodger>I suggest h264 but I have no idea what bitrate
18:55<OwenS>goodger: That would reduce the quality ;-)
18:55<Roujin_>frosch123: I'm talking about certain comments in code (command.cpp)...
18:55*frosch123 gave up to collect movies, they become boring
18:55<Roujin_>CMD_CLONE_VEHICLE: Both building new vehicles and refitting them can be
18:55<Roujin_> * influenced by newgrf callbacks, which makes it impossible to accurately
18:55<Roujin_> * estimate the cost of cloning a vehicle. */
18:55<+glx>OwenS: with correct settings it reduce size only
18:56<frosch123>clone != autoreplace
18:56<goodger>OwenS: actually you can reduce h264's bitrate to ludicrous degrees without reducing the quality
18:56<goodger>glx: that's not a good thing
18:56<frosch123>and yes, cloneing could also be done, but it would mean more work
18:56<OwenS>goodger: Unless I have x264 hogging my PC for days, I can see the quality difference
18:57-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
18:57<Roujin_>ah. okay. sorry for mixing up things..
18:57<OwenS>My eyes are too good at detecting blocking artefacts =S
18:57<TrueBrain>OwenS: so it is time to start using bluray :)
18:57<OwenS>TrueBrain: Then my HD would fill up faster!
18:57<goodger>OwenS: it is perfectly possible to reduce bitrate without introducing such artefacts
18:57<TrueBrain>OwenS: yup :)
18:57<TrueBrain>so buy them :)
18:58<OwenS>TrueBrain: I have these DVDs in my collection
18:58<goodger>notably, divx doesn't even seem to introduce blocking artefacts
18:58<+glx>the only cheap bluray player is the PS3
18:58<OwenS>goodger: You haven't been paying enough attention!
18:58<Zuu>Night guys
18:58<TrueBrain>glx: yup :) But raw downloads are for free ;)
18:58<goodger>I've been paying plenty of attention
18:58-!-Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:58<goodger>night zuu
18:58<TrueBrain>goodger: clearly you are looking with your 11th finger ..
18:59<OwenS>TrueBrain, But it's far easier to play them over the network on the PS3 than shuffle through my shelves. And never mind that I have Region 1 DVDs that my PS3 and DVD players refuse to play ;-)
18:59-!-WhiteRhino [] has joined #openttd
18:59<WhiteRhino>Evening, folks.
18:59<TrueBrain>crack your DVD player :) But yeah ... I do the same with my xbox :)
18:59<TrueBrain>streamng is always easier :)
18:59-!-mib_041m101y [] has joined #openttd
18:59<TrueBrain>howdi Rhino
19:00<goodger>hi WhiteRhino
19:00<OwenS>My DVD player is apparently crackable - but the only way is to buy a remote from a bunch of shady fleabay sellers...
19:00<TrueBrain>buy a new DVD player (from a good supplier) and put in the right region DVD as first DVD :)
19:00<TrueBrain>(DVD players from the supplier don't have a region lock yet .. after the first DVD they do)
19:00<OwenS>TrueBrain: I have multiple regions of DVDs
19:01<OwenS>Mostly European, but I have some American imports
19:01<TrueBrain>so buy 6 player s:)
19:01<TrueBrain>haha :)
19:01<+glx>cheaper than a bluray player ;)
19:01<goodger>you can of course buy regionless dvd players
19:01-!-mib_041m101y [] has left #openttd []
19:01<OwenS>glx: My PS3 is (probably) an adaquite bluray player
19:01<TrueBrain>goodger: those are not legal in any country
19:02<TrueBrain>(well, never say 'any', but okay ...)
19:02<OwenS>TrueBrain, New Zealand has illegalized region coding :p
19:02<goodger>TrueBrain: no, never do say "any"
19:02<OwenS>goodger: Or you can just remove the region coding on your DVD drive :p
19:02<goodger>I own one
19:02<TrueBrain>doesn't make it any more legal
19:02<OwenS>It's only illegal for the manufacturer (Their contract with DVD-LA over the CSS patents)
19:02<+glx>you can also 'play' with the firmware
19:03<goodger>I've a feeling ebuyer wouldn't sell them if it were illegal
19:03-!-Vikthor [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:03<goodger>I'm not sure of the manufacturer of this drive
19:03<TrueBrain>I like playing with firmwares :)
19:03<+glx>on ebay everything is legal until catched
19:04<goodger>ebuyer != ebay
19:05<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> so buy 6 player s:) <- and then pay absolute attention that you not insert the wrong disk in the wrong player
19:05<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: just the first time .. after that, you just won't be able to play them on that player :)
19:05<OwenS>And run out of SCART and HDMI sockets :p
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>afair the players can switch regions multiple times
19:06<TrueBrain>enough SCART 3-1 thingies :)
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>like 5 times or so
19:06<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, yes, but only if you ask them
19:06<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: when you hit reset, yes :p
19:06<TrueBrain>rarely by just inserting the disk
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>and then you end up with 3 players locked to the same region
19:07<TrueBrain>damn, I just want to watch a good movie :(
19:07<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: only if you are really stupid ;)
19:07<goodger>TrueBrain: may I suggest The Terminal?
19:07<@Rubidium>Starwreck ;)
19:07<TrueBrain>goodger: no
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>the most funny thing on star wreck is the language...
19:08<TrueBrain>Rubidium: lol
19:08<goodger>ooh, I got +4 on my slashdot comment! :D
19:08<OwenS>People visit Slashdot?
19:08<TrueBrain>oh goody! People thought you were joking with some math stuff you did?
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>what makes you thing goodger is an instance of People?
19:09-!-Tim [] has joined #openttd
19:09<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: think ;)
19:09<TrueBrain>hi Tim :)
19:09<Tim>hi :)
19:09<goodger>OwenS: apparently
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>yeah... my local dialect coming through...
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the hard "g" :p
19:09<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I know thatone all too well :)
19:09<goodger>TrueBrain: no, I got +4 Informative and two replies
19:10<TrueBrain>I would print it, frame it, and put it above your bed
19:10<TrueBrain>@kick goodger no self-promoting here
19:10-!-goodger was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [no self-promoting here]
19:10<TrueBrain>too easy
19:10-!-goodger [] has joined #openttd
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>i wondered how long it would take him to actually post the lin_k_ here :p
19:11<Roujin_>out of boredom I set up a screenshot that looks like 9/11, because openttd just happened to generate a town with two big towers from TTRS next to each other...
19:11<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: same here, same here :)
19:11<TrueBrain>Roujin_: show us :)
19:11<TrueBrain>(bad joke btw :p)
19:11<Roujin_>now I wonder if people would be offended if I posted that in the random screenshot thread
19:11<TrueBrain>most likely :)
19:11<goodger>Roujin_: probably.
19:12<TrueBrain>as it is kind of ... nasty
19:12<@Rubidium>what would be most interesting/offending is having the planes really explode when near/over the building
19:13<Roujin_>sorry :/ I got tempted by the overly huge skyscrapers of TTRS.. higher than planes are appearently allowed to fly
19:13<+glx>doable with a custom build ;)
19:13<goodger>and then have the building collapse in a suspiciously vertical pattern?
19:13<TrueBrain>Rubidium: should be doable
19:13<TrueBrain>lol :)
19:13<@Rubidium>glx: even without a custom build
19:13<TrueBrain>Rubidium: how do you crash a plane midair?
19:13<goodger>TrueBrain: crash it into another plane
19:14<TrueBrain>not like you can drive a bus into it
19:14<@Rubidium>delete all airports
19:14<Roujin_>but then it doesn't explode immediately, does it?
19:14<TrueBrain>Rubidium: good point
19:14<TrueBrain>requires a bit of timing
19:14<TrueBrain>4 GiB in 10 minutes
19:14<TrueBrain>I love my connection :)
19:15<TrueBrain>unrar takes longer than the download :)
19:15<+glx>I hate you :)
19:15<goodger>I have six torrents downloading at a total of 40 KiB/s
19:15<TrueBrain>I love you too glx :)
19:15<@Rubidium>assuming 99% of all stuff is spam...
19:15<goodger>they're not even esoteric
19:15<TrueBrain>Torrent Stats; Average Upload Speed (216 days): 242.3 kiB/s
19:15<Roujin_>well, if one wanted to be really evil, he could also create a newgrf that would be .. lets say the predecessor of the DBset
19:16*goodger raises eyebrow
19:16<Eddi|zuHause><goodger> and then have the building collapse in a suspiciously vertical pattern? <- it would have been a serious architectural flaw, if the buildings would _not_ have collapsed vertically, and instead take two blocks of buildings with them, falling sideways
19:16<goodger>this is true
19:16<Roujin_>and have it transport a certain sub cargo class of passengers... to special "industries" <-- that's WAY wrong
19:17<TrueBrain>Bandwidth Average: 2 TiB a month upload, 1 TiB a mont download
19:17<goodger>the towers were, however, the first skyscrapers ever to collapse after being crashed into by a plane, and the first to collapse from fire
19:17<energetic>did 4:15 for 700megs lately
19:18<Roujin_>goodger: were there other skyscrapers before that have been hit by planes?
19:18<goodger>Roujin_: a few, yes
19:18<goodger>but this is an ugly topic of conversation
19:18<Roujin_>by planes of the same size, too?
19:18<OwenS>IIRC, didn't the kerosene go down one/more of the elevator shafts?
19:18<OwenS>(Sorry, just checking if my memory is correct)
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>Roujin_: usually, accidental. not planned to create maximum damage
19:19<TrueBrain>Roujin_: a few Cesnas :)
19:19<TrueBrain>sigh ..
19:20<Roujin_>well, a cessna doesn't really match those who hit the twin towers...
19:20<TrueBrain>not by a long shot
19:20<TrueBrain>like being hit by a match
19:20<TrueBrain>(in dutch that sounds much better)
19:21<TrueBrain>bah, even 10 minutes is too long when you are waiting for it :)
19:21*OwenS now wonders what aircraft a nuclear reactor's missile shield must withstand =S
19:21<energetic>the best story about this discussion
19:22<energetic>I think is the Delft University faculty of Building
19:22<Roujin_>so I guess by not mentioning that, some conspiracy theory crash people created that sentence* to "prove" their claims (* "the towers were, however, the first skyscrapers ever to collapse after being crashed into by a plane")
19:22<energetic>Saying: no big tower an collapse due to fire
19:22<energetic>then 3 years later: that exactly that happened to their own buillding
19:23<energetic>but the irony here is not _that_
19:23<goodger>energetic: if you were a conspiracy theorist, one might say that this was not an accident. I am not
19:23<@Rubidium>energetic: that building fire is special too... it did burn without producing CO2
19:23<energetic>the irony is that the Delft building partly collapsed, as they predicted would happen when a fire hit s a building
19:23<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I was waiting on thatone ;)
19:23<energetic>and not a total freefall collapse like the twins.
19:24<energetic>They proved their own theory :)
19:24<goodger>I find it highly suspicious that the entire building was destroyed so neatly, nonetheless
19:25<TrueBrain>how would you react whena plane hits you
19:25<TrueBrain>I would go down too
19:25<energetic>Thats why I think the delft story is _so unbelievably strong_.
19:25-!-trainel [~trainel@] has joined #openttd
19:25-!-trainel [~trainel@] has quit []
19:25<TrueBrain>yo yo homies!
19:25<TrueBrain>glad he realises he had to leave
19:25<Sacro>yo yo yo homo!
19:25<TrueBrain>Sacro: yes darling?
19:25<Sacro>eep *hides*
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>homo sapiens. yes
19:25<Sacro>i think dihedral is who you are after TrueBrain
19:26<+glx>homo sapiens sapiens to be exact
19:26<TrueBrain>wow, I found a way to scare Sacro away
19:26<goodger>Sacro: has it occurred to you that the casual use of synonyms for "homosexual" as pejoratives is offensive?
19:26<Sacro>goodger: yes, but I don't care :P
19:26<Nite_Owl>Need to feed - later all
19:26<Quaver>Sacro: oh, btw
19:26<TrueBrain>homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo homo
19:26-!-Nite_Owl [] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
19:27<Quaver>my mum was convinced you were gay until i told her otherwise earlier
19:27<goodger>TrueBrain: that's quite a good tune actually
19:27<Sacro>Quaver: pfft
19:27<TrueBrain>oh, sorry, I meant to say:
19:27<Sacro>i'm as gay as lawrence
19:27<TrueBrain>goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger goodger
19:27<goodger>that also is a good tune
19:27<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: just a simple typo, ain't it?
19:27<Quaver>Sacro: she was shocked when i told her otherwise and her gaydar is pretty good ;)
19:27<TrueBrain>Rubidium: happens to all of us, not? :)
19:28<@Rubidium>Quaver: thou shalt not lie to thy mother
19:28<TrueBrain>Quaver: what a nasty thing to say in a public channel :)
19:28<Quaver>TrueBrain: hey, she wanted me to tell him ;)
19:29<Sacro>i'm not gay ><
19:29<TrueBrain>but so publicly?
19:29<TrueBrain>Sacro: proof it!
19:29<goodger>Sacro: that's not what you said last night!
19:29<Quaver>TrueBrain: that wasn't specified
19:29<TrueBrain>(one thing a person can never proof, is that he is not gay ... one of the annoying features of not being gay I guess :))
19:30<energetic>i disagree though
19:30<TrueBrain>lijbrandt users tend to do that here, but do tell :)
19:30<Quaver>energetic: i dunno ... it's the same the other way, surely
19:30<energetic>i mean
19:30<Sacro>so TrueBrain, how's the boyfriend?
19:30<goodger>actually there is a test involving forcemeters, elastic bands and pron
19:31<TrueBrain>Sacro: I thought you were my boyfriend :'( :'(
19:31<TrueBrain>what a sad day ...
19:31<goodger>but the candidate has to be not concealing it
19:31<energetic>if i would lie about me being not hetero, and someone would proof i am
19:31<Sacro>errm... if you want
19:31<energetic>simply put a naked hot women on top of me
19:31<goodger>Sacro: you go very well together
19:31<energetic>tproof aint hard to see
19:31<energetic>i guess this works the other way around, too.
19:31<TrueBrain>energetic: being gay doesn't mean perse that a girl doesn't make you ... well .. you know ;)
19:32<Roujin_>maybe it's possible to put the person in hypnosis so he can't lie when he's asked about his preferences
19:32<TrueBrain>Roujin_: I think that is a good possibility :)
19:32<TrueBrain>lets try it ;)
19:32<Sacro>TrueBrain: yes it does
19:32<energetic>that would simply mean ur bi
19:32<goodger>Roujin_: sodium thiopenthal!
19:32<TrueBrain>energetic: well, I have to agree with you on the other way around .. put a naked man in front of me, and nothing would happen ....
19:32*goodger runs down to the lab
19:32-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
19:32<energetic>the gay ppl i know really dont get 1 bpm more when they see a naked women
19:33<TrueBrain>energetic: it is more the social pressure of we being used to getting .. well .. you know, by seeing a naked woman
19:33<Roujin_>goodger: hai, sou desu ne...
19:33-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
19:33<goodger>Roujin_: no speaky the japanesey
19:33<Roujin_>goodger: in other words, I have no idea what you just said :P
19:33<Roujin_>(actually that was not what I said, but you get the point :P)
19:34<energetic>TrueBrain: any news about Lijbrandt?
19:34<goodger>sodium thiopenthal is a barbiturate anaesthetic drug commonly used to erode people's ability to lie under interrogation
19:34<TrueBrain>energetic: they suck?
19:34<TrueBrain>haha :)
19:34<energetic>thats not new.
19:34<TrueBrain>only it doesn't work
19:34<TrueBrain>but the idea is nice
19:34<TrueBrain>it sounds cool :)
19:34<TrueBrain>put 'sodium' in front of any expensive word
19:34<TrueBrain>and in any movie you have: TRUTH SERUM!
19:35<OwenS>Sodium Thiopenthal's effects are entirely the person going "Crap! They have injected me with Truth Serum!"
19:35<goodger>IRL it works as I described, though
19:35-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:35<energetic>most computer interfaces are fake in movies, so prolly the checmical stuff is all fake too
19:35<goodger>it makes the person less alert, hence less intelligent and less able to avoid giving things away under tricks
19:35<TrueBrain>energetic: no shit ;)
19:36<TrueBrain>anyway, when you believe enough in your own lie, it isn't even a lie for your own brain
19:36<energetic>however trinity hacking into mainframe.... some stuff _is_ real.
19:36<TrueBrain>so any 'serum' which makes you tell the truth is bullshit :)
19:36<energetic>True, brain.
19:36<goodger>TrueBrain: absolument
19:36<TrueBrain>energetic: yeah, the word: 'ssh' ;)
19:36<goodger>have you noticed how smashing a VDU in a movie will always render the system offline? and how, when computers break, the VDUs explode
19:36<OwenS>Yeah, I like how The Matrix exploits a real OpenSSH vulnerability :p
19:36<Roujin_>yeah, show me a computer that just shows a password screen all day and if you enter the right password you directly get all the secret information you want :D
19:37<OwenS>goodger, And how, in Star Trek, they run multi megajoule pwoer conduits behind consoles, so the bridge operators get injured/killed every time someone shoots at them?
19:37<energetic>just must be a honk of an admin to use software with a flaw....
19:37<TrueBrain>what amuzes me in movies, is how they reflect a computer which is not working 100% ... by putting static on parts of the screen ...
19:37<energetic>>2 ages old!
19:37<mrfrenzy>you guys should start producing movies ;)
19:37<goodger>OwenS: also, the warp engines are inexplicably located in the aft, the ship banks in order to make turns, the ship has to slow down to turn, and the bridge is inexplicably located at the front
19:37<TrueBrain>finally my movie is extracted
19:37<goodger>mrfrenzy: way ahead of you...
19:38<energetic>Private bitches #4?
19:38<TrueBrain>mrfrenzy: nah .. making it 'real' makes really boring movies :)
19:38<mrfrenzy>however having the science probable makes it a lot more fun
19:38<OwenS>goodger, The in universe explaination for the shape of the ships is "warp dynamics". In other words, warp has it's own laws ;-)
19:38<TrueBrain>lol @ energetic :)
19:38<mrfrenzy>I think stargate is quite good at that
19:38<TrueBrain>still there things happen ...
19:39<goodger>OwenS: actually warp drives are not weird pseudoscience, the theory is sound under general relativity
19:39<OwenS>goodger, In theory sound if we find a particle with NEGATIVE ENERGY, yes
19:39<TrueBrain>goodger: sure ......
19:39<OwenS>I'll leave it up to you to debate the possibility of a particle having a negative energy
19:39<TrueBrain>OwenS: or bundle all the energy of our solar system into a single point ... :p
19:39<goodger>OwenS: the use of antimatter is an implementation detail. besides, antimatter does exist
19:40<OwenS>Antimatter has positive energy
19:40<TrueBrain>what OwenS says
19:40-!-OtherRhino [] has joined #openttd
19:40<energetic>did they find the higgs particle yet in france?
19:40<TrueBrain>antimatter is just as normal as matter
19:40<TrueBrain>energetic: not by a long shot
19:40<OwenS>But to implement a Abercubie Drive (Scientific name for Warp drive), you need negative energy particles
19:40<goodger>energetic: no, a lot of helium spilled on it and now it's offline. it's also in switzerland
19:40<TrueBrain>OwenS: one of the theories :)
19:40<energetic>oh, they evaporated into a black hole, i see.
19:41<OwenS>The problem is that FTL and time travel are mutually inclusive
19:41<OwenS>You can't have one without the other
19:41<energetic>there is this cool movie about the tenth dimension
19:41<Roujin_><goodger> energetic: no, a lot of helium spilled on it and now it's offline. it's also in switzerland <-- lol, that sounds like "it's also in switzerland" is also a mistake that happened during some experiment :D
19:41<goodger>OwenS: again, an implementation detail. the idea of achieving faster-than-light travel by bending spacetime around a stationary object is sound
19:41<TrueBrain>OwenS: FTL?
19:42<goodger>TrueBrain: faster-than-light
19:42<energetic>great stuff
19:42<OwenS>TrueBrain, FTL = Faster Than Light
19:42<OwenS>goodger: Yes. It's sound if negative energy particles are sound
19:42<TrueBrain>OwenS: ah :) Then I agree with you :)
19:42<OwenS>As of yet, we have yet to develop negative energy particles, and it is debatable whether it's possible to have a particle with an energy debt
19:42<valhallasw>somewhat sound, yes :P
19:42<valhallasw>of course, faster-than-light particles exist
19:42<valhallasw>just not in vacuum
19:43<TrueBrain>OwenS: I like the theory which suggest if we create one negative particle, it would consume all positive particles :)
19:43<TrueBrain>valhallasw: bad joke :p
19:43<OwenS>Mmmh, Cherenkov Radiation
19:44<OwenS>So, funnily enough, given the right conditions, nuclear reactors do glow. But cyan, not green :p
19:44-!-WhiteRhino [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:44<TrueBrain>lol @ OwenS :)
19:44<goodger>I think we've gone too far into pointing out petty flaws in a fictional television programme
19:44<OwenS>Were having a Physics debate :p
19:45<energetic>well thats the only cool thing about the program
19:45<TrueBrain>goodger: you started saying it is possible
19:45<energetic>you can neglect the acting stuff, McGyver is better at that.
19:45<TrueBrain>true :)
19:45<Roujin_>and now for something completely different. what this guy did gave me the idea that the add newgrf window should work like the save/load window...
19:45<OwenS>Though if were gonna have a physics debate, I'd prefer it be on something I'm gonna be examined on on Tuesday :p
19:45<goodger>TrueBrain: I started by saying that the idea of moving an object by enclosing it in a packet of spacetime is sound, not that it is possible to implement IRL with current tech
19:46<TrueBrain>OwenS: which is?
19:46<OwenS>Electricity and The Standard Model of Quantum Physics
19:46<Roujin_>okay, keep discussing physics then :P
19:46<goodger>OwenS: if it's classical mechanics, just remember to stick inverse-square relationships under everything
19:46<TrueBrain>OwenS: good luck my friend :)
19:46<goodger>yes, good luck
19:48<energetic>A small thing crossed my mind: when removing a station, shouldnt the railway be kept?
19:48<energetic>just like a bus stop
19:48<energetic>of an inline busstop
19:48-!-OwenSX [] has joined #openttd
19:48<Roujin_>you also don't build the station on existing rail, do you?
19:48<OwenSX>OK what happened there? =S
19:49<energetic>seems logical to me
19:49<energetic>(that the railway should be removed seperately)
19:49<Roujin_>OwenSX: depends on what "there" is...
19:49<energetic>except if you use the demo tool
19:49-!-OwenS is now known as Guest1021
19:49-!-OwenSX is now known as owens
19:49<thingwath>damn, it seems I'm drunk.
19:49<TrueBrain>OwenSX: a cosmic ray hit your cable
19:49-!-owens is now known as OwenS
19:49<energetic>thats actually possible, TB.
19:50<TrueBrain>thingwath: depends on how many people you see in this channel
19:50<energetic>bitflips caused by cosmic rays
19:50<TrueBrain>energetic: not only possible, even probable
19:50<TrueBrain>but I doubt the problem was because of that ;)
19:50<thingwath>Umm, not many.
19:50<energetic>we should never remove all possibilities :D
19:50<TrueBrain>what was the thumbrule ... 1 cosmic ray hits the top of your dumb every minute
19:50<TrueBrain>dumb = thumb
19:51<energetic>_thats_ why i am slowly dying....
19:51<OwenS>And something like 10,000 Carbon-14 atoms decay in your DNA every hour or something
19:51<energetic>dang cosmic rays!
19:51<TrueBrain>haha :) If you think that is the only reason .. sure, why not ;)
19:51<energetic>shooting at my valuable stem cells!
19:52<OwenS>You don't have any stem cells ;-)
19:52<TrueBrain>SHIELD YOURSELF!
19:52<energetic>anyone some tinfoil left?
19:52<OwenS>And what is it? 10 billion solar Neutrinos pass through your body every second
19:52<TrueBrain>tinfoil won't do it :)
19:52<TrueBrain>you need something .... more equiped :)
19:53<TrueBrain>OwenS: that is just scary ;)
19:53<TrueBrain>what is it called in english?
19:53<OwenS>The Sun generates neutrinos through it's CNO fusion cycle, and also through side Electron-Positron eliminations
19:53<energetic>kippegaas lol
19:53<TrueBrain>energetic: yeah, now the english word :)
19:53-!-OtherRhino is now known as WhiteRhino
19:54<TrueBrain>OwenS: as long as it is CNO fusion ;)
19:54<energetic>chicken wire
19:54<energetic>wire mesh
19:54<energetic>wire gauze
19:54<energetic>doubt that helps though
19:55<energetic>leadfoil might just do it?
19:55-!-Guest1021 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:55<TrueBrain>works pretty well
19:55<TrueBrain>cosmic rays
19:55<OwenS>100km of air works better
19:55<energetic>OwenS: not well enough.
19:55<goodger>tinfoil actually amplifies some EM radiation
19:55<TrueBrain>OwenS: true, but that is rarely available in a room :)
19:56<energetic>thats why they use it! now they can say: see: radiation kills!
19:56<OwenS>TrueBrain: You always have 100km of air above you unless your outside the atmosphere :)
19:56<OwenS>energetic: Oh great, more opposition to nuclear power =(
19:56<TrueBrain>OwenS: but we just established that even that does allow some CR to enter your body
19:56<TrueBrain>to avoid that .. we need an other 100 km :p
19:57<TrueBrain>energetic: anyway, a Faraday works pretty well
19:57<TrueBrain>Faraday cage
19:57<energetic>against electrons in the air
19:57<energetic>not cosmic stuff
19:57<OwenS>Anything with enough mass to stop the rest of the cosmic rays has enough mas to crush your body
19:57<energetic>they aint electrons
19:57<TrueBrain>OwenS: not ALL of them ;)
19:57<TrueBrain>just a bunch more :)
19:57<OwenS>Remember: Your body is already holding up a 100km air column ;-)
19:58<TrueBrain>and it is heavy as hell
19:58<energetic>thats a nice line to approach a women
19:58<OwenS>Most people don't realise how much the air above their head weighs :p
19:58<Tim>Hm, following the tutorial here: everything worked fine so far, but when trying to compile pnglib it msys gives me an error...:Connecting to[]:80... connected.
19:58<Tim>HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found
19:58<Tim>01:56:20 ERROR 404: Not Found.
19:58<Tim>tar (child): /tmp/libpng-1.2.8.tar.bz2: Cannot open: No such file or directory
19:58<energetic>wow, you are strong! you can hold a column of 100KM of air!
19:58<TrueBrain>OwenS: for good reason :)
19:58<Sacro>Tim: oh dear
19:59<TrueBrain>Tim: be creative
19:59<TrueBrain>energetic: I can stay under water for 1 hour!! :)
19:59<Sacro>TrueBrain: drowning?
19:59*Sacro wants tickets
19:59*TrueBrain puts a glass of water on his head
19:59<energetic>thats how they found water on mars, too.
20:00<TrueBrain>energetic: most likely :)
20:00<TrueBrain>Mars is fake!
20:00<energetic>omg i put on the irc channel of tweakers
20:00<goodger>TrueBrain: it is traditional at this point to link to a photograph of a glass of water on a mars bar
20:00<energetic>difference of day and night - all thats not allowed on the forum happens in the irc channel
20:01<TrueBrain>goodger: really?!?!!?!
20:01<TrueBrain>wow .. the intelligence ..
20:01<TrueBrain>energetic: peopple want to ventilate one way or an other :)
20:01<energetic>tradition ultimately needs to be broken and replced by new tradiotions.
20:01<Roujin_>is a vehicle ID of 255 illegal?
20:02<TrueBrain>Roujin_: no
20:02<energetic>as u can all se i can trype very fatds
20:02<Roujin_>i have an action 6 changing the vehicle ID of my vehicle according to the parameter the user sets
20:02<TrueBrain>Ai Speek Ferrie Goet Engelisj
20:03<energetic>but i thought they would mod the irc channel like tweakers, too.
20:03<Roujin_>it's in all places where I need to mention the vehicle ID (action 0, action 3, action 4)
20:03<TrueBrain>then everyone just goes to #tweakers.hideout
20:04<Roujin_>if I set the parameter to 255 ingame, it disables the grf saying "Unknown Action 0 property"
20:04<Tim>Hm, that place where he does want to download the file does not exist... Where is it situated now? :
20:04<Tim>$ ./
20:04<Tim>Download file? (Yes)
20:04<Tim>Download file URI? (
20:04<TrueBrain>Tim: be creative :)
20:05<Tim>do i need the adress to the normal libpng 1.2.34 download?
20:06<Roujin_>is it that action 6 does not allow setting something to 255 with a parameter? :/
20:06<Tim>And is it possible to paste from the clipboard into msys? :)
20:07<TrueBrain>Roujin_: I can't help you, my knowledge of newgrf is 0.0000000000
20:07*OwenS wonders why the tt-forums database backup requires shutting down the forum. It should be possible to get a consistent backup just by surrounding the backup with a transaction :p
20:07<energetic>I think, after about a year, Kurt is the biggest ottd community
20:07<TrueBrain>OwenS: it will make the backup take much longer ;)
20:08<OwenS>TrueBrain, But it wouldn't shut down the forum ;)
20:08<energetic>I learned something yesterday:
20:08<TrueBrain>OwenS: those 10 minutes ....
20:08<energetic>beer+HDDs running dont go together.
20:08<TrueBrain>energetic: one thing? :p
20:08<Tim>Hey, i guess it worked :D
20:08<Tim>Thank you, TrueBrain :D
20:09-!-vraa_ [] has joined #openttd
20:09<energetic>And the country leading the country-rankings on Kurts is.... how can it be different... NL.
20:09<TrueBrain>we just rule :)
20:10<energetic>how come NL is relatively the most active ottd supplier?
20:10<+glx>Roujin_: not sure but it may be a B* not a B
20:10<energetic>so much dutchies.... its weird
20:10<TrueBrain>energetic: just appearance :)
20:10<energetic>doubt that
20:10<Tim>svn checkout...
20:11<Tim>aaaaaand compiling
20:11<Tim>wish me luck...
20:11<Tim>thanks :)
20:11<+glx>if configure worked, compile should not fail
20:12-!-vraa [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:12<+glx>unless you modified the sources
20:12<TrueBrain>glx: want to put money on that?
20:12<TrueBrain>it is ,a fter all, Tim
20:13<TrueBrain>energetic: but yeah ... of all nationalities, Dutch ruled in the dev-team for a long time ;)
20:13<TrueBrain>weird enough ... not that many are from USA
20:13<TrueBrain>which always did suprise me :)
20:13<energetic>i guess thats easy to explain
20:14<Roujin_>glx: indeed, vehicle id is listed as B*, but does that mean i cannot use 255?
20:14<Tim>hey.... :(
20:14<Tim>No, i did not (yet) modify the source :D
20:14<energetic>chriss sawyer came from UK, so prolly not sold a lot of copies in US
20:14<energetic>mainly EU. But then I still dont know where the NL part cpomes from
20:14<OwenS>OpenTTD is mainly a train sim, and America has very few railroads
20:14<Tim>But i definitely will... And my first "patch" will be to make realistic acceleration activated as standard
20:14<+glx>Roujin_: IIRC 255 for a B* means there's something else behind
20:15<TrueBrain>and NL has a sucky railroad system .. that explains :)
20:15<energetic>OwenS: also true
20:15<OwenS>Coincidence or not I do not know
20:15<energetic>well, NL has to biggest railroad system of the world, relatively
20:15<+glx>,...val = grf_load_byte(buf);
20:15<+glx>,...if (val == 0xFF) val = grf_load_word(buf);
20:15<OwenS>The UK's railroad system needs a higher speed
20:16<energetic>NL is mostly 130KPH
20:16<+glx>so FF FF 00 should be 255
20:16<energetic>some parts 140, some 160, some 240
20:16<Roujin_>I see
20:16<OwenS>UK's fastest is 125mph/200kmh^-1
20:17<OwenS>Exception being High Speed 1 (Track between the 'chunnel and London St Pancras)
20:18<OwenS>Which is 300kmh^-1
20:18<energetic>i totally like how they made the line between lodon and manchester
20:18<Tim>hrhrhr, compiling worked :)
20:18<energetic>they terraformed the complete route
20:18<TrueBrain>energetic: 240? In NL? Where?
20:18<TrueBrain>The HSL is still not active ..
20:18<energetic>since engines where unable to do more then .5% slopes
20:19<OwenS>Heh cool, the UK is getting Shinkansen to run on HS1 :p
20:19<energetic>I read that AMT can make chaper maglev lines as they built Hispeed links
20:19<+glx>TrueBrain: give me the money ;)
20:19<TrueBrain>glx: you forgot to put in any money :p
20:20<TrueBrain>you can get a cookie?
20:20<Tim>And it worked again with my change to settings.cpp applied :)
20:20<OwenS>So we'll have Shinkansen (Class 395) and TGVs (Eurostars) operating side by side? :P
20:20<TrueBrain>Good night all :)
20:21<energetic>german/japanese malgev use active railroad
20:21<OwenS>Good night
20:21<+glx>OwenS: real highspeed ?
20:21<energetic>AMT passive
20:21<energetic>much cheaper to built
20:21<energetic>they want to built it here in NL
20:21<OwenS>glx: High Speed 1 is real high speed (It's basically an LGV :P )
20:22<energetic>in the port of rotterdam and Schiphol (aitrport) and a new airport in the lake
20:22<energetic>great stuff.
20:23<OwenS>The problem with passive maglev is that a train can't stand still on them
20:23-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
20:23<energetic>yes, i wonder how they solve that
20:23<+glx>using an anchor?
20:23<energetic>prolly good old fashioned wheels flippoing down
20:23<Roujin_>glx: does TTDPatch also accept 255 0 0 to 255 255 0 as vehicle IDs?
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>i thought the japanese did in passive maglev
20:24<OwenS>But anyway, EMS Maglevs (Transrapid) are about as cheap as traditional rail - if not cheaper - when other considerations are included
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>and they have to accelerate to 100km/h with normal wheels
20:24<energetic>then AMT is _much_ cheaper
20:24<+glx>Roujin_: the wiki is not clear enough :/
20:24<energetic>since TR still use active rails
20:25<+glx>and don't want to dig in ttdp source right now
20:25<OwenS>And how do your AMT trains get power?
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>the most expensive part of railway building is the area
20:25<energetic>they aint mine btw
20:25<energetic>but check out
20:25<Roujin_>glx: I'm making a single-vehicle grf that lets the user choose the vehicle ID to his liking with a parameter
20:25<Roujin_>using action6
20:25<OwenS>It's an expression
20:25<energetic>it sounds very... uhm...
20:26<energetic>kinda huniliating
20:26<+glx>Roujin_: but you can try it with hardcoded > 254 value
20:27<Roujin_>you mean hardcode it with 255 123 0 value and see if it loads in ttdpatch?
20:28<Roujin_>to see if ttdpatch accepts that?
20:28<+glx>The <Id> is an extended byte since 2.0.1 alpha 61, to support the definition of >255 sound effects. In OpenTTD since r13482, extended IDs can be used for vehicles as well. However there is currently a caveat that articulated parts must be below 128.
20:28<OwenS>The main problem with powering trains of batteries is, well, that batteries have terrible energy to weight ratios
20:28<+glx>so it looks like ttdp doesn't support it for vehicles
20:28<Roujin_>aww.. sad
20:29<Eddi|zuHause><Roujin_> glx: indeed, vehicle id is listed as B*, but does that mean i cannot use 255? <- means you can make FF ?? 00, and then alter the ?? using the action 6
20:29<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: that part was known :)
20:29<energetic>OwenS: the main thing about AMT apparently not breaking through in our political system -
20:29*Roujin_ is considering ttdpatch compatibility against the user being able to freely choose any of 65536 IDs...
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>ok ;)
20:30<Roujin_>Eddi: thanks, but a bit late ;)
20:30<energetic>- is that AMT apparently solved the economic problem, which is much more important then the technical stuf.
20:30<+glx>Roujin_: you can allow it for openttd
20:30<Roujin_>I can even make FF ?? ?? and change the ?? ?? with the action 6
20:30<energetic>by AMT claiming it being cheaper then HS
20:30<energetic>which sounds, if you think about it, quite logically.
20:31<OwenS>So is Transrapid. A study done in the UK found Transrapid much cheaper than conventional rail for a variety of reasons
20:31<OwenS>Much better gradient handling ability, tighter curves, ability to raise track effectively, etc
20:31<energetic>that one sounds irrational, care to elaborate?
20:31<+glx>not when it's stopped between 2 stations
20:31<energetic>off course
20:32<Roujin_>glx: by checking if we're running TTDPatch or OpenTTD with some action, and depending on the outcome, skipping this or that pseudosprite, right? ugh, I was hoping on avoiding such :P
20:32<energetic>it has all the advantages of maglev
20:32<energetic>you don't wanna know how much a train wears after one ride
20:32<energetic>(a high speed train, that is)
20:33<energetic>pantograph, suspension, wheels, electrical lines, electrical stuff)
20:33-!-Zahl_ [] has quit [Quit: Rhabarberbarbarabarbarbarenbartbarbierbierbar]
20:33<energetic>not to mention railways, safety systems
20:34<Roujin_>I would certainly find it more convenient if TTDPatch understood 255 x y but rejected it if y>0 :P
20:34<+glx>Roujin_: FF ?? ?? should work in ttdp, you just need to discard user chosen value and use a fixed one
20:35<OwenS>One thing that strikes me about AMT is that there seems to be a lot of infrastructure under the vehicle
20:35<OwenS>Anotehr thing that strikes me is it looses TransRapids' inherent safety
20:35<energetic>"infrastructure under the vehicle"
20:35<energetic>what inherent safety?
20:35<OwenS>You see a bunch of equipment, presumably motors, underneath the passenger area
20:35<energetic>AMT doesnt have a production unit yet, TR does
20:36<Roujin_>point is that the ttdpatch guys need the choosing of vehicle ID via parameter more badly than the openTTD guys... those can just set "allow multiple newgrf sets" and be happy :P
20:36<energetic>all stuff of AMT you see is beta
20:36<energetic>(probably one of the reasons they are not taken seriously yet)
20:36<OwenS>And, since a TransRapid's locomotion is powered by the track, then theres no need for any signalling to the cab for safety
20:37<energetic>what 'inherent safety' of TR u talking about?
20:37<OwenS>In TR, the track has the motors
20:37<energetic>yes, active system
20:37<OwenS>The vehicle is just being driven arround by the track
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>Roujin_: what about simply: "if TTDPatch: y=0; x%=128"?
20:37<OwenS>Therefore, the vehicle can't decide to crash into something else - the track has to drive it into the obstruction
20:38<energetic>nothing inherent safe about.
20:38<Roujin_>uhm.. I think TTDPatch doesn't accept the long format at all
20:38<energetic>the system of AMT can make drones of the vehicles, too
20:38<Roujin_>even if y=0
20:38<energetic>or: the TR system can make 'smart wagons' too.
20:38<OwenS>Yes - but this relies on cab to vehicle communication working
20:39<energetic>TR doesnt?
20:39<OwenS>The track is running the show
20:39<energetic>i doubt that?
20:39<Roujin_>or does it?
20:39<energetic>the main controller needs to know the state of the wagon?
20:39<energetic>hence - it communicates?
20:39<OwenS>Yes. It knows where the wagon is because, if it doesn't, then it can't move it ;-)
20:40<energetic>then both systems are in this aspect simply influenced by the architectural decisions of the main controller.
20:41<energetic>namely: do we make them drones, or smart thinking wagons.
20:41<OwenS>And I still don't know how AMT intends to power the trains. Cause batteries won't work, for reasons of needing to recharge
20:41<energetic>I think they replace the battery at a depot at start/end of line
20:41<energetic>but other then that, its a mystery to me, too.
20:42<energetic>and i doubt they use supercapacitors
20:42<OwenS>They'd be better off inductively transfering the energy to the train
20:42<OwenS>Though, when doing that, your getting perilously close to reinventing Transrapid
20:42<energetic>they are proposing short (~25KM-75KM) routes - wonder if this has to do with technical reasons - ie the battery.
20:43<energetic>i suspect they do - but it may very well have other reasons, too.
20:44<OwenS>Cool thing with Transrapid is, seal the train perfectly, then put it in a vacuum, and it can go ~8000km/h
20:44<energetic>yeah baby
20:44<energetic>transatlantic tunnel
20:44<goodger>OwenS: slight safety issue there
20:45<OwenS>goodger: Yeah, I know. No worse than aircraft though, really
20:46<OwenS>If a train hits an issue, decelerate them all then flood the tube with air
20:46<energetic>i think a curve in the railway system doing mach 8 will be as big as NL though
20:46<goodger>OwenS: explosive decompression is not so much an issue when there is air (though low-pressure) as when there is only vacuum
20:47<energetic>a curve of say, 45 deg
20:47<OwenS>goodger: Thats why you have a high pressure air tunnel nearby to flood with
20:47<OwenS>OK, low pressure air, ~6000km/h
20:47<goodger>oh, so now you need five tunnels instead of three
20:48<OwenS>If you have one tunnel per direction, then you only need one more - and it'll likely be useful for maintainance purposes any way
20:48<OwenS>The air pressure doesn't have to be much above atmospheric
20:48<goodger>and some sort of seal mechanism to segment the tunnel
20:48<energetic>i think those systems will be used on other planets only, where resources are available
20:49<OwenS>We'll be living on other planets? We haven't found one hospitable to human life yet
20:49<energetic>it would drain too much on earthly resources to get a decent system upnrunning
20:49<energetic>i didnt say it would be used for humans :o
20:49<OwenS>I find it likely we'll build space colonies - space colonies which will mine asteroids
20:50<OwenS>The average near earth asteroid has something like 100 times our yearly extraction of many metals
20:50<goodger>why mining asteroids?
20:50<goodger>they move about!
20:50<energetic>why not?
20:50<goodger>and they're tiny
20:50<energetic>once we have that spacelift
20:50<goodger>mine planets and jovian moons instead
20:50<OwenS>Exactly - asteroids don't have gravity!
20:50<OwenS>Gravitys a blooming pain
20:50<goodger>even worse
20:50<energetic>mining asteroids will be cheaper then mining on earth
20:51<goodger>how do you mine something without gravity? you'd have to bolt the mining equipment to the asteroid
20:51<OwenS>And if you mine the moon, you have to be careful to avoid creating an atmosphere of dust on it
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20:51<OwenS>goodger, And bolting to the asteroid is a problem?
20:52<OwenS>Any company which managed to mine asteroids would very quickly be able to collapse all of the Earth's mining companies
20:53<energetic>depends what they mine
20:53<+glx>Roujin_: I have a simple test grf (works in openttd, now I'll try in ttdp)
20:53<OwenS>Asteroid mining also doesn't have to worry about messing up the environment :p
20:53<Roujin_>anyway, i'm leaving my action6 now like it is, so the user will only be able to choose IDs 0 to 254 <-- that's what I just wanted to say, but now I wait what glx is up about
20:53<Sacro>I have a nut allergy. When I was at school, the other kids played Russian roulette with me by force-feeding me a packet of Revels.
20:54<OwenS>Sacro, that was random O_o
20:54-!-vraa_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:54<energetic>indeed :D
20:54<OwenS>Anyway, the easy way with Revels is to eat the disk shaped ones :p
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20:55<Roujin_>what exactly does it test glx? if ttdpatch reads vehicle IDs in the D* format (e.g. FF [something] 00) ?
20:55<Roujin_>B* i mean
20:55<+glx>yes and it does
20:56<+glx>power changed for both
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20:56<energetic>Owen: any way to convince plitics they should pursue maglev?
20:57<goodger>energetic: yeah. bribe them with more money than the car industry
20:58<goodger>"this will replace the M1 by being four times the speed at half the cost!" is not the way to do it
20:58<energetic>well its clear trains are cheaper then buolding motorways
20:58<energetic>that was never an issue
20:58<energetic>new however is that a newer type of rail is cheaper then the preceding one
20:59<OwenS>I don't know. UK Ultraspeed are working on it here :p
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20:59<+glx>Roujin_: but it indeed complains for FF 08 01 ;)
21:00<energetic>they use.... kmh in an UK website?
21:00<energetic>that sounds really odd
21:00<goodger>energetic: it's a bigger number
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21:01<energetic>but no one knows what kmh is in uk
21:01<goodger>energetic: put a pair of like-poled magnets under a train and stick a linear motor on the back and you have a zero-friction movement system
21:01<goodger>energetic: precisely. it sounds even bigger that way
21:01<energetic>i know how maglev works
21:01<energetic>but the coolest maglev project
21:02<energetic>is the one of some japanese prof, inventing a maglev system to replace subways
21:02<energetic>a maglev escalator
21:02<energetic>only flat
21:02<goodger>heh, how ludicrous
21:02<OwenS>We have them at airports :p
21:03<energetic>except the maglev part
21:03<OwenS>Yeah :p
21:03<goodger>trying to implement a horizontal escalator at any speed above walking pace will just cause people to fall over
21:03<energetic>some parts of the topyo subway system are that bvusy
21:03<energetic>that they cant add more trains
21:03<energetic>hence they need something better
21:03<energetic>solution: maglev escalator
21:04<goodger>so make the trains run faster
21:04<goodger>problem solved
21:04<goodger>or make it a continually looping train
21:04<energetic>they have
21:04<goodger>right then, problem solved also
21:04<goodger>no escalator required
21:04<OwenS>goodger: In other words an EMU with no end? :p
21:04<energetic>since they need _more_ capacity
21:04<OwenS>Just a big circle of carriages
21:04<goodger>OwenS: precisement
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21:05<energetic>problem: train needs to stop
21:05<Roujin_>glx: sorry, took until now to fully understand your test grf ;)
21:05<+glx>is it that hard?
21:05<Roujin_>but thanks for testing that :)
21:05<Roujin_>no, I am that bad ;)
21:05<goodger>energetic: no it doesn't. paternosters and the london eye do not stop,
21:05<Roujin_>this is my first newgrf I'm making
21:05<+glx>ha ok
21:06<+glx>I only written test grfs so far
21:06<goodger>the system could just move along at a small multiple of walking pace so that people can catch it easily
21:06<Eddi|zuHause2>they made experiments once with "moving platforms"
21:06<Eddi|zuHause2>i.e. increasingly faster "escalators" towards the rim
21:06<goodger>or, close the doors, move very quickly a distance equal to the length of the platform, and then stop, and open the doors
21:06<Roujin_>I cannot yet "read" nfo just like this, have to look up everything, so I was tabbing all the time between the pastebin and the tiki ;)
21:06<Eddi|zuHause2>so the speed difference at the rim matches the speed of the train
21:07<goodger>Eddi|zuHause2: I completely fail to understand. do you have a URL?
21:07<Eddi|zuHause2>but you'll need extremely long platforms this way
21:07<Eddi|zuHause2>sorry, no link
21:07<OwenS>Anyway guys
21:07<Eddi|zuHause2>was a tv show i watched years ago...
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21:08<Roujin_>plus I made the mistake of interpreting the action column as the length column, and the column after that as the action column
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21:08<energetic>eddi: i saw a triple speed escalator in 10m
21:08<energetic>going upto 20KPH
21:09<+glx>Roujin_: just ignore things around tha stars ;)
21:09<Roujin_>it fits for the first line.. there are three bytes after the 03 ^^
21:09<Roujin_>you mean to not care about them and use nforenum, correct?
21:10<Roujin_>i've not yet downloaded it, set those by hand until now :P
21:11<+glx>well use -1 * 0
21:11<+glx>nforenum will 'fix' it
21:13<+glx>though grfcodec doesn't care either ;)
21:13<+glx>but it still safer to check the nfo with nforenum
21:14<Roujin_>hmm, the tiki doesn't mention B* to be usable for action 4...
21:14<Roujin_>action 4's <offset> to be precise
21:14<+glx>because it's different
21:15<Roujin_>but it has to be usable (at least in OpenTTD) or else vehicles with IDs > 255 couldn't be named, or am I wrong?
21:15<Roujin_>oh, it says "For vehicle IDs (language-id bit 7 is clear), this is a byte value, except for OpenTTD since r13482, where it is an extended byte value."
21:16<Roujin_>extended byte == B*, i assume
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21:18<Roujin_>so there TTDPatch does not accept extended byte notation, in contrast to action 0 and 3? :/
21:18<+glx>ottd reads an extended byte for vehicles
21:18<+glx>and it's a B* :)
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21:19<Roujin_>also accepted by TTDPatch?
21:19<+glx>dunno I can test
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>then you'll have to make two actions, and skip one in case of TTDPatch, and the other skipped in case of OpenTTD
21:19<Roujin_>glx: I'd be grateful :)
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>or am i again answering the wrong question?
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21:20<Roujin_>Eddi: if ttdpatch also accept B* format, I can leave out such (which I hope)
21:22<Roujin_>The only difference will be that openttd will accept it when the user sets a value >255 as parameter, and TTDPatch will disable the grf then. (it should, at least..)
21:24<Roujin_>another plus is that if at some point they decide to implement vehicle IDs up to 65535, my grf is upwards compatible :)
21:24<Roujin_>(they meaning in TTDPatch)
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21:27<+glx>Roujin_: it accept the grf but doesn't change the vehicle name
21:27<Roujin_>even for IDs <255 in extended byte notation? (255 123 0)
21:28<+glx>I tried FF 08 00 (Chaney 'Jubilee' (Steam) )
21:28<Roujin_>aww, that's sad :(
21:28<+glx>in openttd it's renamed to "test"
21:29<+glx>but ttdp didn't said the sprite was not valid
21:29<Roujin_>maybe a ttdp bug?
21:31<+glx>or a missing check :)
21:31<+glx>anyway extended byte doesn't work
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21:32<+glx>I guess it replaced vehicle FF name with 8
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21:34<Tim_>man, it's so confusing that declaring a variable as integer and declaring a function look almost the same -.-
21:35<Roujin_>should changing a newgrf in game be able to cause a fatal application failure and openttd to shut down as soon as soon as I hit "apply"?
21:35<+glx>can happen, but should not be as fatal
21:36<+glx>unless the newgrf is highly broken :)
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>unless you mean "before that big red window is shown"
21:36<Roujin_>really? I thought OpenTTD could catch this and disable the newgrf instead
21:36<+glx>depends on what the newgrf changes
21:36<Roujin_>eddi: err, no, after bluntly ignoring the warning of course :)
21:37<Roujin_>I guess my action 6s are a bit off somewhere and changed something vital :)
21:37<Eddi|zuHause>action 6s are evil
21:38<Roujin_>wow, but that error window is awesome, it features an "emergency save" button :O
21:38<Roujin_>(never seen it before ^_^)
21:38<+glx>normal crash
21:38<+glx>check the log
21:39<Roujin_>Reason: Assertion failed at c:\openttd\compile\src\oldpool.h:125: index < this->GetSize()
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>such an assert is useless without a stacktrace
21:40<+glx>less things in a pool after newgrf modification
21:41<+glx>no need for a stack trace (he played with newgrf window)
21:41<Roujin_>ah, so my grf isn't even wrong
21:42<Roujin_>i deliberately changed the id to something that's already used by another set to test it (if the setting works correctly)
21:42<Roujin_>without "multiple newgrf sets" activated
21:43<Roujin_>didn't think it would assert on that..
21:43<+glx>so you overwritten an existing engine, thus reducing the amount of engines
21:43<Roujin_>yup that makes sense
21:43<Roujin_>and so, this crash finally proves -> it works :D
21:44<+glx>well now you need to check it actually remplaced what you wanted :)
21:47<Roujin_>well, entering something >255 doesn't result in an error, so everything should work correctly now..
21:47<Roujin_>but, since that B* seems not to work with TTDPatch on Action4, I think I'll revert it to B again...
21:48<+glx> <-- these ranges are important in ttdp
21:52<Roujin_>hmm so in TTDPatch roadvehs can only have IDs 00 to 57...
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21:53<Roujin_>Maybe I shouldn't use F9 as default then...
21:53<Roujin_>(i chose F9 since eGrvts by Zephyris uses 00 through F8)
21:54<Roujin_>aww, screw that, I assume most OpenTTD players will turn on "allow multiple newGrf sets" nowadays anyways :)
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23:46<Sacro>We need a cllean of General OpenTTD
23:46<Sacro>so many topics that should be in suggestions/problems/screenshot topic/development forum
---Logclosed Sun Jan 11 00:00:00 2009