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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-01-12

---Logopened Mon Jan 12 00:00:02 2009
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00:38<keiya>... DUDE!
00:38<keiya>OpenTTD supports side-scroll!
00:39<keiya>That means, in 'scrollwheel pans', I can do doubletouch scrolling easily! AWESOME!
00:39<goodger>...good for you?
00:42<keiya>My little iBook has its advantages ^_^
00:42<goodger>I'm sure
00:44<Forked>it's nice to look at? =p
00:44<goodger>Forked: depends
00:45<goodger>I liked the ones that looked like purple clams
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00:47<Forked>just ignore me.. I'm still thinking that macs are good for things I don't do .. photoshop-related stuff and video editing etc.. also (one of, if not the biggest online computer stores here in Norway) had an ad saying something like "making the house looking better for xmas? buy a mac!"
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00:47<Forked>so when the stores that sell them can't come up with anything better than that they look good .. =p
00:48<@Rubidium>and they're vastly more expensive than your non-mac counterpart
00:49<Forked>What I can imagine is pretty damn good about a mac.. is that there is no home-made setups of the hardware, so the OS can be finetuned to the small selection of hardware that is available. Therefor more stable than an operating system that has to work with every combination possible
00:50<goodger>Forked: the number of drivers are reduced, yes
00:50<goodger>flexibility goes out the window
00:50<goodger>you want a laptop? you can have your choice of six. in two colours
00:50<@Rubidium>as long as they deliver an OS that breaks applications due to mysterious reasons I'm not buying it
00:51<keiya>Rubidium: So you avoid Windows like the plague?
00:52<@Rubidium>it's one of the few OSes where an application that works fine in version X.Y fails in X.Y+1
00:52<@Rubidium>keiya: yes, and OSX
00:52*keiya laughs
00:52<goodger>Rubidium: apple and microsoft have different philosophies
00:52<keiya>That's true of /all/ systems, Rubidium.
00:53<@Rubidium>keiya: just install a new videocard driver for your nvidia thingy and see how OpenTTD becomes massively slower
00:53<goodger>microsoft know that their DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS have paid a lot of money to make software for windows and will not bother to update stuff or might even move to a less horrible platform if things break
00:53<@Rubidium>or how a universal binary can't be build for OSX 10.3 and OSX 10.5
00:54<keiya>Eh? nvidia thingy? There's no nvidia thingy in this one :P
00:54<@Rubidium>whereas for Windows a binary made for Windows 2000 works fine for Windows Vista
00:54<goodger>Rubidium: windows 1.0 binaries work on windows vista...
00:54<keiya>Not reliably.
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00:54<goodger>apple, on the other hand, don't give two shits, because they know that a certain type of person will unceasingly update software in order to be part of the apple club
00:54<keiya>And those are running under two or three layers of emulation, anyway :P
00:55<@Rubidium>keiya: and OSX is free of that... don't make me laugh
00:55<keiya>Anywho, this laptop was /free/, so I can't really complain.
00:55<goodger>Rubidium: actually they dropped classic in 10.4
00:55<keiya>Rubidium: Eh, it's got less of it than in OS 9
00:55<keiya>goodger: False.
00:55<keiya>They dropped classic in 10.4 /Intel/.
00:56<keiya>It's still here in 10.4 /PPC/.
00:56<goodger>meh, whatever
00:56<goodger>they dropped it
00:56*Forked ponders about throwing a "what linuxdistro is the best?" out there :)
00:56<@Rubidium>Forked: LFS
00:56<goodger>they aren't making PPC machines any more, therefore they dropped it at 10.4
00:56<goodger>Forked: debian! :D
00:56<keiya>They didn't want to run an m64k emulator on a ppc emulator, basically :P
00:56<keiya>goodger: Oh, wow.
00:56<keiya>So I'm /imagining/ chatting to you?
00:56<@Rubidium>keiya: in 10.4 your bash is always the PPC which on x86 means it runs on Rosetta, i.e. a PPC emulator
00:57<Forked>Rubidium: interesting. I shall read up on that project.
00:57<keiya>Rubidium: Yes... it would be /if I were on intel/.
00:57<goodger>keiya: no, you're using quite old hardware
00:58<goodger>if you were using any hardware from the era of 10.4 onward, you'd be on an intel
00:58<goodger>apple dropped classic in 2006-or-whenever by moving to intel, and not porting classic to intel
00:58<keiya>You claimed there was none.
00:59<keiya>I am using one, thus you were incorrect.
00:59<goodger>"there was none" --- what?
00:59<keiya>You did /not/ say they no longer manufacture ppc hardware (which would be mostly correct)
00:59<goodger>there was no classic in any new macintosh starting with the release of os x 10.4
01:00<keiya>But OS 9 and OS X are /totally/ different, anyway.
01:01<Tefad>verrrry different
01:01<goodger>when was that a part of the conversation?
01:01<keiya>goodger: Well
01:01<goodger>you can't just whip that commonly-known statement out and say "I win!"
01:01<Forked>well as long as you all know vista is better than any osx :-)
01:01<keiya>You claimed "software doesn't work from one version to the next"...
01:01<keiya>Forked: Heh. OS X actually /runs/ :P
01:01<Forked>keiya: so does vista
01:02<goodger>keiya: actually rubidium claimed that
01:02<Forked>keiya: what do you mean "sometimes"?
01:02<keiya>Well, anyway, a more accurate comparison would be DOS programs on NT, without the layers and layers of compatability hacks.
01:03<goodger>keiya: a more accurate comparison to what?
01:03<keiya>(The NT kernel doesn't impliment /any/ of the same interfaces as pre-95 kernels. In 98, they introduced an abstract driver system which is still supported.)
01:03<keiya>goodger: OS 9 to OS X
01:03<goodger>you're thinking of implement
01:03<@Rubidium>keiya: OSX actually runs? It failed to install when I tried
01:04<keiya>Rubidium: On what hardware?
01:04<goodger>keiya: OS 9 to OS X is much more different than win9x to winNT
01:04<@Rubidium>well... not a piece of expensive mac hardware
01:04<keiya>goodger: Yes, but not from the Win9x kernel to the NT kernel.
01:05<Tefad>the APIs were the same.. "win32"
01:05<keiya>NT didn't impliment the win32 api, originally... it's hacks on top of it.
01:05<Tefad>a security model was added.
01:05<keiya>Tefad: Actually, that's all implimented above the kernel, now.
01:05<Tefad>win9x had none. only profiles
01:05<Tefad>there are many many implementations of the win32 API
01:05<keiya>The core NT and 9x kernels have /literally/ nothing in common :P
01:05<goodger>what are we arguing about here?
01:05<keiya>Nothing, anymore...
01:06<goodger>well, no, that's bollocks
01:06<keiya>I think we've gotten lost :P
01:06<goodger>there are plenty of parts of the modern windows kernel that haven't been changed since the 80s
01:06<Tefad>win32 even existed for windows 3.11
01:06<keiya>goodger: Oh-so-very false.
01:06<keiya>The layer applications see hasn't changed that much
01:07<Tefad>goodger: i don't think microsoft has retained much of its 16bit asm optimizations...
01:07<keiya>The NT kernel and DOS are totally separate. You might as well say Microsoft Office and StarOffice have code in common :P
01:07<Sacro>they do
01:08<@Rubidium>keiya: you know we are actually considering removing support for OSX < 10.5 from OpenTTD?
01:08<Tefad>! blasphemy
01:08<keiya>Yeah, and when you do I'll just keep running the last version that handles it. I'm used to that :P
01:08<Tefad>support for beos but not os x?
01:08<goodger>if the kernel was created from scratch for NT, why does it have such appalling security, process management, user management, memory management, filesystem, etc?
01:08<keiya>goodger: Because they had to hack in support for the win32 api.
01:08<@Rubidium>OSX gets incompatible APIs, BeOS doesn't
01:09<keiya>And such.
01:09<Tefad>goodger: because microsoft disables security to be compatible with win9x
01:09<Tefad>they're gradually turning it on every windows release since 2k
01:09<keiya>Rubidium: Mostly because BeOS hasn't been updated since the dark ages...
01:09<goodger>apple has illustrated very thoroughly that it is possible to start from scratch and still support legacy software
01:09<@Rubidium>even Windows and most Unices have stable APIs
01:09<Tefad>microsoft has problems with that.
01:09<Tefad>they reinvent the wheel too often
01:10<keiya>goodger: Mostly by running emulation...
01:10<goodger>Rubidium: OSS unixes tend to have quite unstable APIs because their software is open-source
01:10<Tefad>recoding the win32 API i mean
01:10<goodger>keiya: not processor-level emulation
01:10<@Rubidium>stable meaning that documented API functions are kept
01:10<keiya>goodger: Actually yeah :P
01:10<keiya>A lot of the OS 9 core still uses m64k features :P
01:11<Tefad>Rubidium: i think it's a ploy to make mac users spend more money to upgrade their software from year to year
01:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't shut down a windows computer from a remote session...
01:11<Tefad>does anything made for 10.3 work in 10.5??
01:11<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: you have to run shutdown from cmd
01:11<keiya>Tefad: Yes.
01:11<@Rubidium>Tefad: yes, as long as it doesn't the APIs that got removed in 10.5
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01:11<@Rubidium>Tefad: yes removed
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01:11<Tefad>i don't think microsoft removes many APIs
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01:12<Tefad>just deprecates them and ignores them.
01:12<keiya>Tefad: Hence their horrible security, and such...
01:12<goodger>I have plenty of dmgs that specifies individual point releases of os x
01:12<Tefad>keiya: that's when you have to log in as administrator to run legacy apps
01:12<Tefad>kind of silly.
01:12<goodger>"requires OS X 10.4.2-10.4.6. incompatible with Panther"
01:12<keiya>MS /can't/ secure WIndows, because they have to keep support for all the horrible flaws..
01:12<keiya>goodger: Uh
01:13<Tefad>keiya: they're working on it
01:13<goodger>I forget the name for 10.5, it was really obscure
01:13<keiya>goodger: Leopard.
01:13<Tefad>i still don't use windows or OS X at home
01:13<goodger>that'll be it
01:13<Tefad>the wife even likes using ubuntu
01:13<keiya>But, uh, have you tried running software for 2000 on ME? :P
01:13<Tefad>easy for her to screw around with additional apps with the package manager
01:13<@Rubidium>Tefad: e.g.
01:13<goodger>keiya: that's completely different
01:14<keiya>At least when Apple breaks backwards compatability, they actually break it instead of just refusing to run arbitrarily :P
01:14<keiya>(Case in point: .net dev kit.)
01:14<keiya>99% of it runs just fine on 98...
01:15<keiya>(The one exception being a rarely used tool... oh, and the installer, which does a test and refuses to run even though it'd work fine.)
01:15<goodger>keiya: I reckon MS will replace the windows kernel with a bastard UNIX and port the shell, then run a choice of totally enclosed compatibility layers, just as apple did ten years ago, and microsoft could have done twenty years ago
01:15<keiya>goodger: MS did that already...
01:15<keiya>Only not Unix, just a new kernel.
01:15<goodger>keiya: obviously they did not
01:15<@Rubidium>and the function that breaks for 10.5 is a function that converts a OSX type string into a C type string
01:16<Tefad>goodger: huh?
01:16<keiya>Rubidium: That's actually another flaw..
01:16<Tefad>the windows kernel is quite solid. i don't see why they'd run from it
01:16<keiya>If you're not useing objc, you're a second-class citizen
01:16<keiya>Tefad: ...
01:16<keiya>They did.
01:16<Tefad>the GUI code that /is/ in the kernel has been run through paces for years
01:16<keiya>Ages ago.
01:16<Tefad>the NT kernel is a hybrid kernel
01:16<keiya>NT kernel vs DOS. :P
01:17<Tefad>NT was a joint venture between IBM and MS
01:17<keiya>They then hacked on bits of the old stuff, mind.
01:17<keiya>Tefad: Not really... originally, yes.
01:17<keiya>But, the current releases are so far removed from that... :J
01:17<Tefad>microsoft got the rights to NT through a long court process
01:17<Tefad>there were even some beta floppies of OS/2 that were microsoft branded ; )
01:18<Tefad>anyway, the kernel has roots from there
01:18<goodger>Tefad: the kernel is theoretically just about adequate. everything else of the system is a shittily executed attempt to turn DOS into UNIX; if they replace the entire thing with a real UNIX and put in a totally enclosed compatibility system [think vmware images]
01:18<goodger>then it will all work much more nicely
01:18<keiya>And the 9x kernel is... DOS!
01:18<Tefad>microsoft DOES have a unix kernel-thing sitting next to its win32-thing
01:18<Tefad>called Interix
01:19<Tefad>but that only comes with the top tier windows versions.. business
01:19<keiya>What's next, are you going to claim that BSD and Linux are the same thing? >_>
01:19<Tefad>interix is heavily influced by bsd
01:19<goodger>keiya: GNU and BSD are both UNIXes, that's good enough for me
01:19<Tefad>i used interix on XP at work for years
01:20<Tefad>interix is a unix subsystem for NT
01:20<Tefad>just like win32 is a subsystem
01:20<goodger>(linux is pretty irrelevant in this context, it's one of quite a few decent UNIX kernels)
01:20<keiya>goodger: They implement the same API, but they're not the same kernel.
01:20<Tefad>one of my freebsd friends has some respect for the linux kernel, but hardly any for the GNU 'experience'
01:21<@Rubidium>keiya: so you say that OpenTTD for OSX is a bug?
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01:21<keiya>Rubidium: ...
01:21<keiya>You could /pretend/ to make sense.
01:21<DaleStan>Except that, technically, Linux is not a UNIX. They haven't got the certification as such from The Open Group.
01:22<@Rubidium>keiya: you're effectively saying that if it isn't written in objc it is not right
01:22<goodger>keiya: I didn't say that linux and the BSD kernel are the same, I said they might as well be ignored because there's no major differences --- same with GNU and BSD. we're looking at a "windows and unix" world here, wherein unix is practically everything except windows
01:22<keiya>Rubidium: No, I'm saying that's a flaw /with OS X/...
01:22*keiya shrugs
01:22<goodger>DaleStan: we're not talking about certification, we're talking about reality
01:22<keiya>Anyway, I'm tired of this
01:23<keiya>How did we spin off to here from "Ooh, I can set it up to let me scroll sideways with the touchpad!", anyway?
01:23<goodger>but it's only half-ten!
01:23<@Rubidium>read the backlog
01:23*keiya shrugs
01:23<keiya>And, sighs.
01:23<goodger>keiya: I said I preferred the old ones, then someone said macintoshes were overpriced, then you said the operating system is the only one that works properly
01:24<keiya>I wanted to give Dare a hug before she left :(
01:24<keiya>goodger: No I didn't...
01:24<keiya>What I meant to say, which you all misinterpreted, was that others suck just as much.
01:24<goodger>perhaps we "misinterpreted" you because you didn't say that
01:25*keiya shrugs
01:25<keiya>anyway, whatever.
01:26<goodger>(I say half-ten with confidence because it's obvious you're californian)
01:26<goodger>do you have a burlap bag and a hybrid car?
01:26<keiya>No, and no.
01:27<keiya>And, no, I'm not a Californian.
01:27*Rubidium thinks most people in here should first get some real knowledge about developing applications for the different platforms before they say what is more/less compatible (and thus stable w.r.t. application development support)
01:28<Tefad>Rubidium: just use java?
01:28<keiya>Rubidium: Eh, you have to code for the lowest common denominator no matter /what/ platform you're using. That doesn't change.
01:28<keiya>It's just, how big that set is changes :P
01:28<Tefad>java is GPL now
01:28<keiya>Tefad: And still slow as hell!
01:28<keiya>(Well, sometimes... it depends on the exact setup.)
01:29<Tefad>so no matter wtf happens, someone can get your shit working if you pay them enough (eg 25years down the road)
01:29<Tefad>java /can/ be slow sure.
01:29<Tefad>that's why you can create platform specific accelerations if you need them
01:29<keiya>Any time you do graphics, here :p
01:30<@Rubidium>Java's GUI init is especially slow, but technically it can be faster than normally compiled C code
01:30<Tefad>another key word is 'normally' compiled C code
01:30<keiya>Rubidium: Except that Apple's version sucks horribly :P
01:30<Tefad>properly optimized C code gives Java's JIT a run for its money : )
01:30<@Rubidium>without heavy profiling etc. and it requires Java to support JIT on your platform
01:30<Tefad>but it's close competition
01:30<goodger><dooglus> asg: the biggest package is linux-image-2.6.16-1-686. I don't do any image processing, so I think it's probably safe to remove that one
01:32<keiya>I still want to build an x86 from train logic gates, and run openttd on openttd.
01:32<Tefad>poo. a GCC update. i hate these.
01:32<Tefad>keiya: ew.
01:32<keiya>(I think you'd need a freaking-huge-map patch, though.)
01:32<keiya>Well, or a PPC :P
01:32<Tefad>how about a 4004
01:32<keiya>I think maybe sparc, too... has anyone gotten OpenTTD working on an m64k? :P
01:33<@Rubidium>I see no reason why it wouldn't work
01:34<@Rubidium>assuming it's a 32+ bits processor
01:34<goodger>surely one could port OTTD to 16-bit fairly easily
01:36<@Rubidium>is it really m64k or did you mean m68k?
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02:12<Mortal>oooh, 14999 revisions
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02:25<Tim>Good Morning everyone
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03:06*dihedral is bored.....
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03:17<@Rubidium>dihedral: then go fix something
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03:56*Tim-itry is busy installing all that stuff needed to compile OpenTTD on his laptop...
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03:58<Tim-itry>If i want to get the latest source of OpenTTD, and write my own patches, and update them to trunk from time to time, is TortoiseHG a good choice and enough? (WinXP)
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04:08<@petern>tortoise hg or svn
04:11<Tim-itry>Okay, just trying to set it up (TortoiseHG)
04:12<Tim-itry>Oh, Rubidium, which present will we get with Revision 15000? :)
04:13<@petern>you'll get r15000!
04:13<@petern>what more could you want?
04:14<Tim-itry>Hm, are you asking for a wishlist? :D
04:15<Tim-itry>Uh, seems like cloning the trunk to my laptop actually works Oo
04:21<Tim-itry>So, after having a clone of the trunk on my laptop, what next? Do i have to modify the files i want to change over TortoiseHG, or can i just modify them with the editor of my choice and TortoiseHG keeps track of the changes?
04:26<@petern>yeah modify them as normal
04:26<planetmaker>good morning!
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04:36<Tim-itry>Hm, modified one file and succesfully created a new local revision... However, i can't add files so it will visually show me in the explorer which files have been changed...
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04:44<@petern>hmm, msn won't connect :/
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04:46<@petern>and fake explorer views piss me off
04:46<@petern>like the nokia suite
04:47<@petern>you get a nice file listing in what looks like an explorer view
04:47<@petern>but you can't universally drag & drop them
04:47<@petern>needed to copy them into a temp directory before dragging onto winscp
04:50<@petern>something tells me the camera took a while to process it...
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05:02<Rubidium>so it isn't bending of time that you've photographed?
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05:05<freiksenet>hello everyone
05:06<freiksenet>oops, wrong channel
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05:11<@petern>well you never know
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05:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15000 /branches/noai/src/ (ai/ai.hpp saveload/ai_sl.cpp): [NoAI] -Fix (r14984): forgot to rename @file too
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06:07<Mortal>15000 commits, yaaaay
06:11<TrueBrain>haha @ Rubidium :)
06:15<@petern>we were at 2xxx when i started
06:15<@petern>my software mixer patch is coming along.
06:16<@petern>only problem is it requires modifying all the sound drivers, so testing is... fun
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06:20<Rubidium>petern: only requires two sound drivers to test (sdl and win), right?
06:20<Rubidium>who cares about cocoa?
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06:21<@petern>well win works
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06:22<@petern>once that's done then there is no fixed reliance on the software mixer
06:22<@petern>so an sdlmixer driver can be done
06:22<@petern>although that's only a software mixer anyway, heh
06:23<@petern>but sdlmixer would provide easy midi support for linux, with no sound device conflicts
06:24<@petern>and i think dominic wanted it for whatever port he was doing
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07:18<Tim-itry>Hm, if i try to get the source code by svn checkout, it tells me "access denied"
07:18<Rubidium>then don't login
07:19<TrueBrain>don't try to commit
07:22<Tim-itry>Well, i'm not trying, i just want to get the code with TortoiseSVN and try "SVN Checkout" or "Import", both gives me access denied - error
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07:23<TrueBrain>Import is wrong for sure
07:23<Rubidium>Tim-itry: what url are you trying to download from?
07:23<TrueBrain>checkout should work, if you use svn://
07:24<Tim-itry>That's the one i use...
07:24<Tim-itry>hm :-/
07:24<Rubidium>and then you said something like use username X?
07:25<Rubidium>or tortoise is thinking it should login instead of anonymously get the data
07:27<keiya>I hate you all for not removing antennas.
07:27<@petern>antenna in the way?
07:28<Rubidium>ignor(anc)e is bliss
07:30<keiya>petern: Yep >_>
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07:31<@petern>hmm, r2963
07:32<TrueBrain>petern: r1 :)
07:33<@petern>yeah well
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07:34<TrueBrain>:p :p :p
07:35<@petern>glx's first patch is before mine, heh
07:35<@petern>first commit much later though
07:36<Rubidium>that revision sounds like around my first OTTD releated patch
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07:37<@petern>hmm, 10,000 commits in trunk
07:37<@petern>4788 for you
07:38<@petern>oh, first commit
07:38<@petern>3511 is first commit with your name on it
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07:41<@petern> 1924 rubidium
07:41<@petern> 1344 tron
07:41<@petern> 1236 darkvater
07:41<@petern> 1139 peter1138
07:42<@petern>449 for you
07:42<TrueBrain>petern: what are that?
07:42<TrueBrain>or revisions?
07:42<@petern>commits to trunk per person
07:42<@petern>46 ludde, heh
07:42<@petern>11 richk
07:43<@petern>^ 11 too many :p
07:43<TrueBrain>petern: I count 717 for me ;)
07:43<@petern>including r1
07:43<TrueBrain>53 for ludde ..
07:43<TrueBrain>you count weird :p
07:44<@petern>grep ludde log.txt -c gives 53
07:44<TrueBrain>52 .. lol :) (ludde had some patches which were committed not under his name! :p)
07:44<@petern>but that's not 53 commits
07:45<@petern>i filtered that out
07:45<frosch123>oh, we are already at 15000...
07:45<TrueBrain>r2532 | hackykid | 2005-07-08 21:02:26 +0200 (Fri, 08 Jul 2005) | 2 lines
07:45<TrueBrain> - Fix: Don't waste space using an int where a byte would suffice. (ludde)
07:45<TrueBrain>I think that should be counted to ludde :p
07:45*frosch123 was mentally still at r14953 :/
07:46<@petern>TrueBrain, too much hassle to do that for every possible commit
07:46<@petern>loads have attribution
07:46<TrueBrain>petern: fair enough :)
07:47*petern svn up's frosch123
07:47<TrueBrain>petern: but I don't find those numbers fair! I did a lot of commits in tgp branch, and that was commited as a single trunk commit :(
07:47<TrueBrain>(hehehehehe :))
07:47<TrueBrain>sorry, I will shut up now :)
07:47<Tim-itry>hm, maybe the firewall here at my workplace is blocking the access to the svn repository... Since it does also not work via MSys
07:48<TrueBrain>Tim-itry: 'access denied' means there is some kind of connection
07:48<TrueBrain>so what are you trying EXACTLY in msys
07:49<@petern> 2498 rubidium
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07:49<@petern> 1608 darkvater
07:49<@petern> 1539 truelight
07:49<@petern> 1476 tron
07:49<@petern> 1275 peter1138
07:49<@petern> 420 truebrain
07:49<@petern>for everything :p
07:50<TrueBrain>you should add truelight and truebrain together :p (hehehehehe :))
07:50<@petern> 140 (no
07:50<@petern>hmm :/
07:50<@petern>i guess that's your secret hidden commits
07:51<TrueBrain>well, not really anymore
07:51<TrueBrain>mapgen is no longer part of SVN
07:51<TrueBrain>it is gone completely
07:51<Tim-itry>MSys: svn checkout svn://
07:51<TrueBrain>a few more revisions went byebye
07:52<TrueBrain>Tim-itry: should work, works where :)
07:53<Tim-itry>Message (translated): svn: Can not connect to Host Could not connect because the hostcomputer denied the connection
07:53<TrueBrain>now THAT is your firewall
07:53<TrueBrain>but no message about 'access denied' ...
07:53<TrueBrain>(which suggests a password login)
07:53<TrueBrain>bad Tim-itry, giving us the wrong impression
07:54<Tim-itry>denied the connection... ;)
07:54<TrueBrain>Tim-itry: try
07:54<Tim-itry>Cool, that works :)
07:55<TrueBrain>it is much slower
07:55<TrueBrain>but .. oh well ..
07:55<TrueBrain>it does bypass your firewall ;)
07:56<TrueBrain>if you like, also available: (or
07:56<TrueBrain>(first redirects to the second)
07:56<Tim-itry>Hehe, fast enough for me, needed only like 10 seconds to download
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08:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15001 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_core.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: make NoAI network safe again
08:55<@petern>nice target: 15151
08:55<@petern>then 16384 i guess
08:55<TrueBrain>petern: go for it :p
08:57<Rubidium>or 15951
08:57<+glx>any 15X51 will do too
08:57<frosch123>or 15742
08:57<TrueBrain>or 15002
08:57<TrueBrain>sigh ..
08:59<@petern>hmm, railtypes is 76KB !
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09:05<Mortal>15551 is prime
09:06<TrueBrain>proof it ;)
09:06<frosch123>ask the prime minister, he should know
09:06<Mortal>it's divisible by 1 and 15551 and no other integer
09:07<Rubidium>but dividing by two gives me 7775
09:07<Mortal>Rubidium, retry with infinite precision
09:08<Sacro>Can any C/C++ guys take a look at and tell me how many answers are correct?
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09:08<Rubidium>int main(int argc, char *argv) { printf("%i\n", 15551 / 2); } <- Q.E.D.
09:08<frosch123>there is nothing as precise as integer arithmetics
09:08<Mortal>yes, fractional arithmetics
09:08<SpComb>Rubidium: and multiplying 7775 by 2 gives you what?
09:09<Aali>Sacro: what did you answer?
09:10<Rubidium>Sacro: I'd say 2
09:10<TrueBrain>MORE MONEY!
09:10<Sacro>Rubidium: b?
09:10<Mortal>hmm I'd say 3
09:10<frosch123>1) looks weird, so I say D)
09:10<Mortal>sacro, 2 of the answers are correct
09:11<TrueBrain>Sacro: clearly D)
09:11<Rubidium>Sacro: D is right, thus C isn't and A isn't either, but as A or B or C is right, B must be right too
09:11<Mortal>now, go and finish your homework
09:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15002 /branches/noai/ (28 files in 5 dirs):
09:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: move 'squirrel' to 'script/'
09:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Codechange: renamed 'AISquirrel' to 'AIScanner', as that is what it is doing
09:12<Rubidium>but you not being able to figure out that D is right should fail you the test (you can't use a compiler after all)
09:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15003 /branches/noai/projects/ (openttd_vs80.vcproj openttd_vs90.vcproj): [NoAI] -Fix r15002: of course I forgot the MSVC project files
09:13<frosch123>hehe, I knew you would run out of fruits
09:14<blathijs>I'd go for C
09:14<Mortal>r15004 [NoAI] -Codechange: renamed 'AIScanner' to 'AISquirrel', as that is way the cutest name~<3
09:14<TrueBrain>blathijs: you think the first thing compiles?
09:14<frosch123>there shouild be "E) implementation specific"
09:15<Mortal>yeah... after all, what is a Vector *really*
09:15<TrueBrain>Mortal: I am glad you don't have commit rights ;)
09:15<TrueBrain>frosch123: not in a fruity mood ;)
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09:15<TrueBrain>waiting on this lovely girl to reply to my question .. bleh :p
09:16<frosch123>"wanna marry me?" ?
09:16<TrueBrain>:) :)
09:16<blathijs>TrueBrain: Oh wait, there is a "result" in between there
09:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15004 /branches/noai/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
09:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: renamed 'SetSetting' to 'AddSetting' in info.nut, as this makes much more sense
09:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: WARNING: all info.nut using SetSetting will now fail to compile. Change ASAP!
09:17<TrueBrain>blathijs: yeah ... silly, not?
09:17<blathijs>TrueBrain: That does ensure this question has a non-ambiguous answer
09:18<blathijs>TrueBrain: Otherwise, it would be dependent on compiler implementation and Vector implementation
09:18<blathijs>TrueBrain: (ie, if Vector has a copy constructor with observable behaviour)
09:18<TrueBrain>blathijs: then I would have agree'd with you :)
09:18<TrueBrain>and the question would have been really stupid in that case
09:19<Zuu>but still, both B and D can be said to be true. And it says "Which one is true"
09:20<Mortal>nah zuu, you can't really compare the efficiency of one program to the efficiency of uncompiled code
09:20<TrueBrain>Zuu: B requires both to compile, in any sanes persons mind ;)
09:20<TrueBrain>so saying B can be true, is just nitpicking
09:20<Mortal>then B could be true and code section 1 could be line noise
09:22<Mortal>scratch that, we're not comparing efficiency of compiled programs... ugh
09:22<Mortal>I can't wait until I learn this shizzle properly at uni
09:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15005 /branches/noai/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
09:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: remove Event filters, as nobody was using them
09:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change [API CHANGE]: removed AIEvent::Test(), as it was silly
09:23<blathijs>I would say that code section 2 is most efficient... to fill up a file that has to be 100KiB in size :-)
09:23<blathijs>SpComb: You thought to contribute some line noise? :-)
09:24<Mortal>spcomb is lowering the entropy a bit
09:24<Steve-N>i'm running into this issue (in openttd, not some exam;) and i was wondering if this would be considered a bug or a feature:
09:25-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
09:25<Steve-N>when a vehicle is at a station, without full-load order, it refuses to leave as long as new cargo is arriving at the station and this vehicle is the only one pickup up this specific cargo at this station. this can take a really long time, until the vehicle is completely filled up..
09:26<dihedral>no - it refuses to leave as long as cargo is arriving at the station in the time the train is still loading
09:26<dihedral>and still has space for more
09:26<Steve-N>yes that's what i mean
09:26<frosch123>it has always been like that
09:26<Steve-N>that shouldn't mean it's good ;)
09:26<Rubidium>we have very lenient conductors; they don't close the door when someone is entering
09:27<Steve-N>when i go on the subway, it just leaves if some passengers were getting on while i am walking into the station
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09:27<Zuu>and closing doors 30 seconds before departure dosen't exist in OpenTTD.
09:27<frosch123>but not when they are blocking the doors of the train
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09:28<frosch123>you should try that in rl, get 50 friends and keep on entering the wagon through one door and leave through the other...
09:28<Zuu>There are these trains where you can open the doors from the outside even if the train has started to roll out from the station.
09:28<Steve-N>then the doors will just open briefly and slam close again, or the subway driver will come out of his cabin
09:28<Steve-N>(believe me, i tried, a long time ago;)
09:29<dihedral>well - they are trains, not subways
09:30<Steve-N>this goes for any vehicle, bus, train, monorail (+metro track)
09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15006 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: throw a real instance of a class, instead of '0' (which can also be a throw from within a thread for what ever reason)
09:32<SpComb>goto and longjmp are great for error handling
09:32<SpComb>dismissing them as evil is silly
09:32<TrueBrain>SpComb: also very thread-safe and stuff :p
09:32<SpComb>I'd hate to have to write code somewhere where they decide that "goto is evil and shall not be used, ever, without exception"
09:33<blathijs>SpComb: They are pretty complex, and usually there better tools for the job (goto -> loops, longjmp -> exceptions)
09:33<TrueBrain>'goto' _is_ evil
09:33<TrueBrain>longjmp for error handling in a C application, acceptable
09:34<TrueBrain>but 'goto' ... brr
09:34<SpComb>I mean `if ((ptr = calloc(1, sizeof(*ptr))) == NULL) goto error;`
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09:34<TrueBrain>SpComb: in the C++ world we do instead of 'goto error': 'throw OutOfMemory'
09:34<TrueBrain>much more useful
09:34<SpComb>I'm not talking about C++
09:35<TrueBrain>(as can you have one layer somewhere to handle every memory allocation failure)
09:35<SpComb>in C++, you don't even have the if
09:35<TrueBrain>one good reason to start using C++ ;)
09:35<Rubidium>don't forget to mention that break and continue are gotos (without label)
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09:35<worldemar>SpComb: how do you replace if in C++
09:35<SpComb>imo, in C, goto is the only sane way of handling errors in functions
09:35<SpComb>and that's not a bad thing at all, it works very well
09:35<ccfreak2k>If goto is evil, why is it in the C spec?
09:36<frosch123>because it is C ?
09:36<TrueBrain>so because it is in some spec ... it is not evil?
09:36<TrueBrain>cool!!! :)
09:36<SpComb>of course, goto can be abused for stupid crap as related to weird loop structures, but so can anything else
09:36<worldemar>C is a spartan language (c) linux kernel coding style
09:37<ccfreak2k>It was good enough for Kernighan and Ritchie.
09:37<SpComb>libpng uses longjmp for error handling, and using it is alright, although I think I'd just preferr using explicit error return codes for the library API
09:38<TrueBrain>libpng sucks for its longjmp usage
09:38*Rubidium agrees with SpComb
09:38<TrueBrain>really sucks :s
09:38<SpComb>you can set a new jmp_buf in each function where you call libpng
09:38<SpComb>and I don't use threads at that point
09:38<TrueBrain>SpComb: you mostly HAVE to set a new one ...
09:38<TrueBrain>(to gain any sane error information)
09:39<TrueBrain>a simple 'return error' would have worked as well :(
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09:39<SpComb>the longjmp thing is less code for functions that call libpng many times, and it also works for sub-functions
09:40*Rubidium likes to think that goto should be avoided if easily possible, but certainly not at all cost; deliberately (with thought) using it is fine, but it shouldn't be a habit of using it everywhere
09:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15007 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_event.hpp.sq: [NoAI] -Fix (r15005): eats a tab in one file every single time for no good reason ... BAD SCRIPT! (tnx SmatZ for spotting)
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09:44<SpComb>but way too often you see some function where each function call with an error return code has its own if block with the same cleanup code copy-pasted into it
09:44<SpComb>that really sucks
09:45<TrueBrain>I love C++ :)
09:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r15008 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Revert (r12706): remove fibers
09:45<TrueBrain>(I just don't use throws enough :p)
09:46<@petern>all that work :p
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09:46<SpComb>so you were talking about copy constructors earlier...
09:46<SpComb>and how the existance of one impacts the performance of some other method implementation
09:48<blathijs>SpComb: yeah?
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09:49<SpComb>it's interesting when you have things like default constructors or copy constructors that do syscalls, like an IPAddress class that calls getaddrinfo
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09:49<SpComb>then you strace your program and start wondering why you have seven billion completely useless syscalls for netlink sockets to get network interface addresses
09:50<SpComb>turns out your code or the library code is causing default IPAddresses to be constructed or copied a couple times every time you receive a packet
09:50<SpComb>the compiler can't optimize out calls to getaddrinfo
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09:55<SpComb>that's one of example of what I had to deal with when working on my first C++ application
09:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15009 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2528]: No need to extent the reserved path when the vehicle is still loading.
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10:00<shumway-dk>anyone able to help with a langhuage problem with openttd
10:01<@Belugas>yeah, someone might
10:02<shumway-dk>my problem is it has changed the language in my game from english to danish and that is just plain annoying so i need some way to change it back to english
10:02<TrueBrain>Belugas!!! :) :) :)
10:02<TrueBrain>Game Options -> Language -> English
10:04<shumway-dk>thanks that helped now ill play
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10:04<TrueBrain>omg ..
10:04<TrueBrain>+1 (stupid user)
10:05<@Belugas>that was... VERY silly
10:05<@Belugas>hello TrueBrain :)
10:05<TrueBrain>how is Belugas doing this day? :)
10:06<TrueBrain>it is cold outside here :)
10:06<TrueBrain>but no snow :(
10:06<SHRIKEE>so it's a worthless cold then
10:06<SHRIKEE>bah :(
10:06<frosch123>no, I already saw someone leaving his bicycle quite fast towards the floor
10:06<SHRIKEE>here it's as bad
10:07<@petern>gah, what can i use to view a patch file on windows...
10:07<@petern>(with colours 'n stuff)
10:07<TrueBrain>petern: wordpad
10:08<@petern>tortoisesvn and winmerge will show diffs, but not from files, only actual changed files :/
10:08<@Belugas>i'm doing fine, thnaks. just that work at work is so fucking demanding :(
10:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r15010 /branches/noai/ (67 files in 8 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r14994:15009
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10:13<@Belugas>petern, notepad2 is what i use. works like a charm
10:13<@Belugas>color highligh and all
10:13<@petern>cba right now :)
10:13<@petern>will apply bits of patch tonight, i think
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10:14<@Belugas>? Canadian Bankers Association ?
10:14<@Belugas>Club de badminton d'Alma ?
10:14<@petern>can't be arsed
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10:19<TrueBrain>petern: Nucleair or Nuclear
10:20<Aali>Nucleair? doesn't make sense :P
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10:21<Zuu>petern: (g)vim
10:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15011 /trunk/src/newgrf_cargo.h: -Documentation: Nuclear, not Nucleair
10:23<@petern>absolutely no need for those extended classes ;)
10:23<@petern>they're supposed to be user defined, heh
10:23<@petern>0-7 is standard, 8-15 are custom
10:25<Zuu>hmm, looking for (and fixing) artifacts from a dirty camera lens is a bit tricky on a dirty monitor.
10:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15012 /branches/noai/src/ai/ai_core.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: don't close AIs on a client
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10:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15013 /branches/noai/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix: make the diff between trunk and NoAI a tiny bit smaller
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10:26<Zuu>Hello scia
10:26<scia>long time since i've been here ;)
10:27<TrueBrain>so you missed us? :)
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10:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15014 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_func.h): -Codechange: Add a helper function to get the needed DC_xxx flags from the result of GetCommandFlags().
10:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15015 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14919): Distant-join always failed for docks. Based on patch by PhilSophus.
10:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15016 /branches/noai/src/settings.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix: make the current default for suspend-blabla the same as the setting-to-be
10:31<planetmaker>woah... I sense a comit-ing spree here... :)
10:32<scia>hehe, I missed everything :p
10:32<frosch123>planetmaker: would be easier, if you had done the splitting :p
10:33<planetmaker>I'm out of context... what do you refer to, frosch123?
10:33<frosch123>puttint 2) and 3) in one patch
10:34<frosch123>ah, ok, they affect different files
10:34<planetmaker>... which patch?
10:34*planetmaker wonders
10:34<frosch123>ah, sorry, planetmaker and philsophus both start with 'p' :)))
10:35<planetmaker>Being mixed up with him is no slight ;)
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10:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15017 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ [NoAI] -Fix: running no longer gives a diff
10:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15018 /branches/noai/src/helpers.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (sync fix): helpers.cpp should have been removed (spotted by Rubidium)
10:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15019 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix (r14919): Close station selection window, when disabling distant-join setting. (PhilSophus)
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10:49<George>frosch123: Tell me please, what is the chance to have FS#2521 done this month?
10:49<frosch123>by me: zero
10:50<TrueBrain>by me: zero
10:51<worldemar>what is FS#2521?)
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>slope information, i assume
10:54*worldemar just read the topic >_<
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10:57<@Belugas>by me: zero
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11:00<@Belugas>worldemar :
11:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15020 /branches/noai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Change: put 'script' in their own subfolder for MSVC
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11:03<@Belugas>George, it's not out of bad will
11:03<@Belugas>let say it's bad to rush on something withouth thinking about it.
11:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15021 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (ai_core.cpp ai_instance.cpp): [NoAI] -Codechange: minor changes and movements (nothing groundbreaking or anything)
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11:04<frosch123>haha, "minor changes and movements (nothing groundbreaking or anything)" could also qualify for a merge :p
11:05<Zuu>worldemar: entry number 2521 on flyspray (
11:05<worldemar>Zuu: ok)
11:05<TrueBrain>frosch123: I already said in an other channel: I wonder how many people suspect something else ;)
11:05<Zuu>(oh, scrollback is evil)
11:05*Belugas remembers a big commit by tron who was saying something like "nothing" important and was responsible of a lot of fixes ;)
11:07<@Belugas>i see petern remebers that one too ^_^
11:07<@Belugas>worldemar, why do you always end up your posts with ")" ? does it have a certain meaning for you?
11:07<worldemar>Belugas: two posts makes you think it is always?
11:08<TrueBrain>and out of the 4 (5 by now), that is a pretty big number
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11:09<@Belugas>well... yes, since those are the only ones i've seen from you, worldemar ;)
11:09*worldemar is grepping log...
11:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15022 /branches/noai/src/ai/ (ai_gui.cpp ai_gui.hpp ai_info_dummy.cpp ai_storage.hpp): [NoAI] -Cleanup: coding stylish
11:11<worldemar>Belugas: both "(" and ")" has meaning for me. maybe it's just good evening...
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11:12<@Belugas>so... ( is good and ) is evening... cool :)
11:13<@petern>( )
11:13<@petern>[ ] ' # /
11:14<worldemar>something like a sed script
11:14<TrueBrain>( ) to you too petern :)
11:15<OwenS>As long as we don't start talking in BF :-P
11:16<worldemar>Belugas: "good evening" was about lots of ")"
11:16<worldemar>OwenS: because it will be really BF
11:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r15023 /branches/noai/ (3 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Change: reorder some files in source.list to please MSVC
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11:17<OwenS>++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. to you too! :p
11:18<worldemar>he did it >_<
11:18<Forked>brainfuck is it?
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11:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15024 /branches/noai/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): [NoAI] -Cleanup: remove some hacks
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11:32<@Belugas>toum te doum
11:35<Forked>I agree.
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11:37<@Belugas>bank processing, i do totally hate you from time to time :S
11:38<@petern>banlist loading doesn't support to work properly
11:38<@petern>or saving, one of the two
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>do i have to ask what 72 101 108 108 111 32 87 111 114 108 100 33 10 means? :p
11:41<blathijs>Could be ASCII I guess
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>at least that's what my internal brainfuck interpreter says...
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>of course it's ascii ;)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm too lazy to open the table ;)
11:42<blathijs>ending newline (10) most numbers above 97 (lowercase), but starting with an uppercase letter
11:42<blathijs>32 is a space
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11:42<worldemar>it is "good evening"
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>what's an A? 65?
11:42<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: yup
11:43<worldemar>Good, to be precize
11:43<blathijs>worldemar: Huh? 101 is not an "o" AFAICS
11:43<blathijs>IIRC 96 is an a
11:43<worldemar>ouch, really
11:43<blathijs>worldemar: hey wait, the letters don't even match :-)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>96? shouldn't a be odd?
11:43<@petern>space in the wrong place
11:44<@petern>97 is a
11:44<worldemar>seems like my brain isn't brainfuck interpreter
11:44<worldemar>blathijs: yeah, i noticed)
11:44<OwenS>72 is H :P
11:44<blathijs>Hmm, I thought 96
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>should be a difference of 32
11:44<@petern>Hello World!
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. one flipped bit
11:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r15025 /branches/noai/ (47 files in 7 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r15009:15019
11:44<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, that makes sense. I was thinking 0-based, but it is 1-based
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>ascii is cool, you know ;)
11:44<@petern>quite obvious
11:45<OwenS>All I can ever remember of ASCII is that 0x3n are the numbers :p
11:45<blathijs>ie, 0110000 + 1-based letter == lowercase and 01000000 + 1-based letter == uppercase
11:45<@petern>OwenS, wrong
11:45<blathijs>OwenS: Oeh, I didn't know that one. *remembers*
11:46<@petern>oh, hex
11:46<@petern>sorry :)
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11:46<Eddi|zuHause>we had to implement an upper/lower case converter in hardware design
11:46<OwenS>A lot of BCD math libs actually keep the numbers as ASCII strings actually :p
11:47<@petern>BCD is hardly necessary these days
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>with don't cares for non-letters
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>but some special escape letters
11:47<OwenS>BCD is only useful for banking & calculators
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>to switch mode
11:47<@petern>BCD was designed so that conversion from in-memory to output was simple
11:47<OwenS>I.E. where accuracy matters
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>BCD is easy to read in hexdumps ;)
11:48<OwenS>Yeah :P
11:48<@petern>you don't need BCD for accurate numbers
11:48<SpComb>I tend to store my data as bits
11:48<OwenS>It tends to be used in arbitrary precision applications
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember that we should design a BCD adder in hardware, too
11:49<@petern>one way of doing that is use a regular wide integer value and another value stating where the decimal point is
11:49<@petern>although maths might get tricky, heh
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>which is useful for displaying on a 7-segment-LED
11:49<OwenS>I personally like designing processors in Verilog :p
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>we used VHDL
11:49*worldemar remembers his matrix multiplication script on bash
11:50<OwenS>My brain and VHDL never agreeed
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>but it might just have been a BCD counter, not adder
11:50<SmatZ>we use VHDL primarily... but I think Verilog is better :)
11:50<OwenS>Verilog just sticks better for me...
11:50<OwenS>I've been designing a 32-bit pipelined processor
11:51<OwenS>Lots of logic for stage interlocks :p
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't done much hardware stuff since the 4th semester
11:51<blathijs>17:49:13 <@petern> one way of doing that is use a regular wide integer value and another value stating where the decimal point is <-- Isn't that exactly what floating point is?
11:51<OwenS>blathijs: No. Floating point says where the BINARY point is
11:52<blathijs>Ah, yes
11:52*worldemar keeps all hos floating points in aquarium
11:52<OwenS>It's been fun deciding how to implement strcpy in hardware :p
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>binary is known to have problems with rather common values like 0.2
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>which are "round" in decimal, but periodic in binary
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11:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r15026 /trunk/src/ (core/enum_type.hpp spritecache.cpp): -Codechange: use SpriteTypeByte instead of SpriteType in the SpriteCache struct in order to make it smaller
11:54*OwenS doubts it's possible to implement strcpy in software faster than n/8+1 cycles best case
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11:56<Eddi|zuHause>abusing MMX opcodes or something?
11:56<OwenS>Even so it would take longer
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think they handle only 4 bytes
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11:57<OwenS>SSE 16
11:57<OwenS>And the hardware for strcpy isn't overtly complex either (perhaps my pipeline is bizzare :P )
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>now find software for which strcopy is the bottleneck :p
11:58<OwenS>memcpy is that fast too (actually faster)
11:58<SmatZ>OwenS: what if you are forbidden to read past the terminating 0?
11:59<SpComb>duff's device
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>memcopy is strcopy without checking for 0?
11:59<SmatZ>you have to read byte-by-byte then
11:59<OwenS>SmatZ: And when does this happen if the strings are 16-byte aligned?
11:59<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: you give memcpy a length
11:59<OwenS>On x86, you can only fault on 4kb boundaries
11:59<SmatZ>OwenS: when you are using for example debug registers to catch reads out of array borders
11:59<SpComb>strings are 16-byte aligned? :/
12:00<SmatZ>OwenS: segment limits???
12:00<planetmaker>not only strings.
12:00<OwenS>SpComb: Do the first n unaligned bytes as bytes, then do the rest at 16 byte alignment
12:00<OwenS>SmatZ: Name me one OS which uses segments!
12:01<SmatZ>OwenS: DOS
12:01<SpComb>Microsoft SQL server uses segmented memory on 32-bit platforms!
12:01<SmatZ>and even Windows do
12:01<SmatZ>I don't know about linux
12:01<OwenS>DOS uses Real Mode segments, which are vastly different; Windows uses FS and GS for special purposes, but you never store strings in them (pointers at most)
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>this discussion is getting way too technical
12:02<OwenS>Linux will let you use GS for thread local storage; but again you will never have a pointer which uses GS since the C standard hasn't heard of segments ;-)
12:03<@Belugas>butterscotch and peanuts popcorn
12:04<@Belugas>could hold a whole bag
12:05<@Belugas>eat...not hold
12:05<blathijs>They usually go hand in hand
12:05<planetmaker>Belugas: I would rather recommend to eat what's IN the bag - not the bag itself ;)
12:05<blathijs>for humans anyway
12:05<SmatZ>OwenS: things you are talking about are implementation-specific
12:06<OwenS>Which things?
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12:06<SmatZ>like malloc returning data aligned at 16B
12:06<SmatZ>but you can't suppose the string will begin at 16B boundary
12:06<OwenS>Malloc is guaranteed to return memory aligned to the platform's biggest data structure
12:06<SmatZ>like, strcpy(a, b+1)
12:07<OwenS>But, in any case, have strcpy handle any unaligned leader bytes byte-by-byte
12:08<OwenS>man malloc: "For calloc() and malloc(), return a pointer to the allocated memory, which is suitably aligned for any kind of variable"
12:08<OwenS>Similar in C and POSIX
12:08<SpComb>is a one-byte malloc 16-byte aligned?
12:08<OwenS>Since x86 has 16-byte aligned types, the memory must be 16-byte aligned
12:08<OwenS>SpComb: Yes
12:08<SmatZ>OwenS: you are still talking about implementation specific problems
12:09<OwenS>If your using SSE, your malloc returns 16 byte aligned variables else SSE is not usable!
12:09<SmatZ>malloc may return "unaligned" pointers, if they can be used to point to any data structure
12:09<@Belugas> <-- new excuse for not searching on the forums... I'm VERY VERY NEW to OpenTTD
12:10<OwenS>In any case, how did we end up discussing SSE when I was discussing implementing strcpy/memcpy as a CPU instruction? ...
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm... "Assi-gnNode" looks like an odd hyphenation
12:10<@petern>on x86, mallocs are not all 16-byte aligned
12:11<@petern>or something
12:11<OwenS>petern: name one OS on which they are not yet SSE is enabled
12:11<@petern>maybe they are, and i'm thinking of other stuff
12:11<@petern>it's not gauranteed, though
12:11<OwenS>If SSE is disabled, hypothetically they could be 8 byte
12:11<@petern>not by malloc
12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15027 /trunk/ (311 files in 30 dirs): (log message trimmed)
12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Merge: tomatos and bananas left to be, here is NoAI for all to see.
12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: NoAI is an API (a framework) to build your own AIs in. See:
12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: With many thanks to:
12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - glx and Rubidium for their syncing, feedback and hard work
12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Yexo for his feedback, patches, and AIs which tested the system very deep
12:12<@petern>(not gauranteed to be 16, that is)
12:12<OwenS>POSIX: "The pointer returned if the allocation succeeds shall be suitably aligned so that it may be assigned to a pointer to any type of object and then used to access such an object in the space allocated (until the space is explicitly freed or reallocated)."
12:12<OwenS>"it may be assigned to a pointer to any type of object and then used to access such an object in the space allocated"
12:13<OwenS>On x86, it has to be 16 byte aligned because SSE has separate aligned and unaligned load instructions
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12:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15028 /branches/noai/: [NoAI] -Remove: NoAI branch, as it is now merged with trunk
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12:14<SpComb>hmm, NoAI
12:14<SmatZ>OwenS: you have no 128bit data type specified in the C standard
12:14<SpComb>this is merge-day
12:14<SmatZ>so C standard can't say anything about this
12:15<SmatZ>that is... you have char, short, int, long (and long long in C99)
12:15<SmatZ>all with implementation-specific sizes
12:15*worldemar dreams about long long long long
12:16<OwenS>If your compiler supplies an 128-bit type (Which GCC and MSVC do), then according to both POSIX and the C Standard malloc must return suitable memory
12:16<Swallow>Congratulations on getting NoAI in trunk!
12:16<OwenS>Things are already getting pretty implementation specific if your using SSE anyway ;-)
12:17<TrueBrain>tnx :)
12:17<blathijs>OwenS: That sounds rather impossible, that libc malloc should behave different depending on what compiler is used
12:18<OwenS>blathijs: libc and the compiler are considered as one unit with regards to the C standard's references to them
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>next merge is cargodest :p
12:18<@petern>a0x9d4b008 (1) b0x9d4b018 (2) c0x9d4b028 (4) d0x9d4b038 (8)
12:18<Rubidium>lol ;)
12:19<@petern>16 byte alignment, ending on 8? :p
12:19<OwenS>petern: What platform?
12:19<OwenS>I'm probably too used to the x86_64 ABI
12:20<SmatZ>OwenS: all I can find in C99 specs is that pointers ... are aligned to be able to access data ... but nothing about the alignment as such
12:20<SmatZ>like, on x86, you can access data aligned at 1B boundary (except x86)
12:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15029 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Cleanup (r15027): remove strings that aren't needed anymore
12:20<SmatZ>err except some SSE instructions
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12:21<OwenS>(1) 224d010 (2) 224d030 (4) 224d050 (8) 224d070
12:21<OwenS>I'll admit I truncated off the top 4 bytes there :p
12:22<@petern>they're all 32 byte aligned
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12:22<@petern>sort of :)
12:22<SpComb>there's the malloc overhead
12:22<@petern>16 byte aligned, then a 16 byte gap
12:22<@petern>the hidden stuff you never see
12:22<SpComb>two pointers
12:23<OwenS>Depends upon the implementation
12:23<@petern>quite so
12:23<OwenS>Two pointers, two size_ts, pointer and size_t,
12:23<SmatZ>...10 ...30 ...50 ...70 isn't 32B aligned :-P
12:23<OwenS>16 bytes is quite an important size though since it's the size of a cache line...
12:24<OwenS>On most x86
12:24<@petern>i meant 32 byte offset
12:24<SmatZ>cache_alignment : 64
12:24<SmatZ>for my CPU
12:24<@petern>i don't have that :/
12:24<OwenS>O_o theyve been pushing it up
12:24<@petern>clflush size : 64
12:24<OwenS>petern: cat /proc/cpuinfo
12:24<@petern>if that's a similar thing
12:24<SmatZ>cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep cache :)
12:25*SpComb 2048KB
12:25<@petern>yeah, that only returns cache size
12:25<worldemar>cache size : 4096 KB
12:25<worldemar>cache_alignment : 64
12:25<OwenS>address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
12:25<@petern>i think you only see some things on amd64
12:25<OwenS>cache size : 512 KB <- What happened to my L3 cache?
12:25<@petern>40 physical? hmm
12:25<OwenS>Intels are 36 physical IIRC
12:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15030 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Update (r15029): and from the other languages too (yay for WT2)
12:25<Forked>mmm 640 kilobytes
12:29<TrueBrain>SmatZ: now check what the compile-time does in your graphs ;)
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12:29<@petern>core 2 anyway, i dunno about xeons
12:29<@petern>64GB seems enough
12:29<SmatZ>TrueBrain: +30k lines ;)
12:29<@petern>so what does noai allow now?
12:30<@petern>and will tron revert it? :p
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12:30<TrueBrain>I think I will book a ticket and kill him or something
12:31<SpComb>someone on #mysql has 128GB of memory
12:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r15031 /trunk/src/ (core/enum_type.hpp spritecache.cpp): -Fix (r15027): merge reverted r15026, so do it once again
12:32<worldemar>SpComb: not at home, i think...
12:32<yorick>how do I change graphics when landing aircraft?
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12:33<yorick>hello ruud
12:33<planetmaker>congrats to all devs for NoAI trunk :)
12:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15032 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix (r15030): Rubidium was too script-happy ;)
12:33<TrueBrain>tnx planetmaker :)
12:33<Zuu>Ideed, a good congras to all people behind NoAI :)
12:34<yorick>mh, oh, congrats TB, glx, rubidium, yexo, morloth, TJIP, otherpeople
12:34<planetmaker>I have a peculiar idea what the next game on our servers will be like :)
12:34<SpComb>you could write an openttdcoop AI
12:35<TrueBrain>planetmaker: any problems, let us know ;)
12:35<OwenS>SpComb: What, one which builds rail networks of ridiculous complexity?
12:35<planetmaker>SpComb: yeah... but there are some already :)
12:35<TrueBrain>for all developers: 'make regression' does a big AI test for sanity ;)
12:35<planetmaker>TrueBrain: be sure of that! :)
12:35<SpComb>AI sanity test
12:35<OwenS>TrueBrain: It doesn't make a regression? =(
12:36<TrueBrain>it does a regression check
12:36<TrueBrain>two different things ;)
12:36<@Belugas>ho my ho my ho my
12:36<OwenS>Then the name lies :p
12:37<TrueBrain>not really :)
12:37<TrueBrain>just your interpertation of it :)
12:37<goodger>OwenS: suggest you symlink "check" to "make" in PATH :P
12:39<@petern>hmm, src/3rdparty
12:39<frosch123>\o/ svn up does not conflict
12:39<TrueBrain>concratz frosch123 ;)
12:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15033 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_object.cpp: -Fix (r15027): silent a warning when compiling without network
12:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15034 /trunk/source.list: -Fix (r15027): NoAI framework no longer needs threads, so don't make source.list believe it does
12:41<TrueBrain>anyway ... sorry all about the extra compile-time ;)
12:41<TrueBrain>SmatZ: let me know when you have time-stats for that ;)
12:41<@Belugas>tron, i invoke you!!!
12:41<SmatZ>TrueBrain: takes about 30 minutes...
12:41<@Belugas>Let See Your Mighty Wrath!!
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12:47-!-tom0004 [~Tom@] has joined #openttd
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12:48<planetmaker>[SRC] DEP ai/api/ai_object.cpp
12:48<planetmaker>make[1]: *** No rule to make target `/Users/ingo/ottd/trunk.hg/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp', needed by `3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.d'. Stop.
12:48<frosch123>your external fetch failed?
12:49<planetmaker>in r15034.
12:49<planetmaker>So... I need squirrel?
12:49<planetmaker>I got no complaint from hg
12:49<TrueBrain>svn has 'svn externals'
12:49<TrueBrain>hg doesn't
12:49<planetmaker>but there's no squirrel.h
12:49<TrueBrain>so you need to do that yourself
12:49<TrueBrain>in src/3rdparty, get 'squirrel' from svn://
12:49<planetmaker>ok... what do I need? Or where do I find what I need?
12:49<TrueBrain>(of the hg variant :p)
12:50<TrueBrain>we should make configure check for that I guess :)
12:50<planetmaker>ok, will have a look :) - and yes, would be a good idea :)
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12:50<OwenS>TrueBrain: Is Squirrel staying? Or is it eventually gonna be replaced?
12:51<+glx>time will say
12:51<TrueBrain>it will be replaced
12:51<TrueBrain>takes time :)
12:51-!-Yeggstry [] has joined #openttd
12:51<OwenS>Then again, my project will need it's own language anyway since I need to ban loops :p
12:51<@orudge>NoAI merged into trunk :o
12:51<@orudge>very good
12:52<planetmaker>hm... where do I checkout that 3rd party thing to?
12:52<yorick>does that still need to be done manually?
12:52<TrueBrain>planetmaker: as I said: src/3rdparty
12:52<OwenS>yorick: Mercurial only
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12:53<yorick>so you mean it can't be done as automagically as it could?
12:53<planetmaker>you might want to include that, so that a simple trunk co actually compiles :)
12:53<+glx>planetmaker: it works for svn
12:54<yorick>I don't use svn.
12:54<TrueBrain>for svn, it is all automated
12:54<planetmaker>hm... not for hg anymore :)
12:54<TrueBrain>your problem
12:54*OwenS wonders if people would complain that a simple RPN language was too complex for signals :p
12:54<yorick>then remove hg completely
12:54<blathijs>OwenS: You need to ban loops?
12:54<blathijs>OwenS: For what?
12:54<Zuu>hmm hg qpush says "abort: local changes found, refresh first" but 'hg commit -m " "' says "nothing changed" and 'hg qpush' aborts with same abort message again. (I have qpop:ed all patches and made 'svn up')
12:54<yorick>people will go complain
12:54<TrueBrain>@kban 60 yorick hg removed
12:54<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: 60 is not in #openttd.
12:54<OwenS>blathijs: Programmable signals
12:54<TrueBrain>@kban yorick 60 hg removed
12:54-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
12:54-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [hg removed]
12:54<Zuu>previously I have fixed this with hg qpush --force, but that seams to give interesting file changes in my patches.
12:55<Aali>hg is really stupid sometimes, try reverting
12:55<TrueBrain>I hate people who can only wine ..
12:55<Zuu>Aali: Reverting hg or svn?
12:55<Zuu>I've made 'svn revert -R src'
12:55-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
12:55<Aali>you have a hg queue in your svn repo or what?
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12:56<Swallow>Zuu: qrefresh might be what you need
12:56<Zuu>Aali: Yes, so I update trunk using svn, but manages my queues with hg.
12:56<Aali>Zuu: but why? :P
12:56<planetmaker>he, indeed :)
12:56<Aali>just use a hg repo
12:56<planetmaker>I pull trunk using hg and have a few clones which pull from my trunk copy
12:57<Zuu>Aali: Because I already know how to checkout with svn. :)
12:57<Aali>hg clone <whatever>
12:57<Aali>and you're done :P
12:58<yorick>so now I need to do hg clone src/3rdparty/squirrel?
12:58<Zuu>It would be good if 'hg diff' could tell me what files that block patch push. :/
12:58-!-fjb [] has joined #openttd
12:58<Aali>Zuu: and it does that in a hg repo :P
12:59<yorick>then I can't use hg addremove anymore :/
13:00<Aali>yorick: hg doesn't traverse sub-repos
13:00<dihedral>TrueBrain: did you not miss two zeros on that kban command?
13:00<Aali>it'll be like that repo isn't even there
13:00<Zuu>Aali: But my idea was that i hg qpop to bottom, make a svn up, and then do hg commit -m "r12345" and then hg qpush me up again.
13:00<OwenS>How about 3600? :P
13:00<Aali>Zuu: why would you do that?
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13:02<Zuu>Aali: Because i would not need to learn hg other than the queuing part. But my issues probably show that my shortcut was not really a shortcut. :)
13:02<yorick>it doesn't even error when missing squirrel, only [make] error 2
13:02<Aali>learning hg is not that hard :P
13:02<Aali>and you'll never do it if you don't try
13:03<planetmaker>seems to work now though with two warnings: /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk.hg/src/ai/api/ai_tile.cpp: In static member function 'static bool AITile::PlantTree(TileIndex)':
13:03<planetmaker>/Users/ingo/ottd/trunk.hg/src/ai/api/ai_tile.cpp:216: warning: passing negative value '-0x00000000000000001' for argument 2 to 'static bool AIObject::DoCommand(TileIndex, uint32, uint32, uint, const char*, void (*)(AIInstance*))'
13:04<planetmaker>/Users/ingo/ottd/trunk.hg/src/ai/api/ai_tile.cpp: In static member function 'static bool AITile::PlantTreeRectangle(TileIndex, uint, uint)':
13:04<planetmaker>/Users/ingo/ottd/trunk.hg/src/ai/api/ai_tile.cpp:226: warning: passing negative value '-0x00000000000000001' for argument 2 to 'static bool AIObject::DoCommand(TileIndex, uint32, uint32, uint, const char*, void (*)(AIInstance*))'
13:04<yorick>it doesn't compile here
13:04<yorick>I'll test on another copy
13:04<planetmaker>I did exactly what you posted, yorick ;)
13:04<OwenS>TrueBrain, how about revising that 3600 upwards to 86400? :p
13:05<Zuu>Anyhow, hg qpush -force, and then a diff of my patch before and after svn up shows no problems this time. So I can stick my head into the sand a little while more. :D
13:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15035 /trunk/config.lib:
13:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix (r15027): if case people don't use SVN (which we advise), they do not
13:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: receive src/3rdparty/squirrel automaticly. Warn when not found, and advise what
13:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: to do (this to avoid stupid users like yorick get all confused and agressive)
13:05<TrueBrain>OwenS: I get my fun out of other things ;)
13:06<Forked>ah yes, calling the users stupid.. always fun.. but to their face? :p
13:06<TrueBrain>planetmaker: nice error; I wonder why no other compiler noticed it
13:07<TrueBrain>Forked: not 'their' .. a single person :) Which makes all the difference )
13:07<planetmaker>Aeolus:~/ottd/trunk.hg ingo$ Your script made an error: the index 'SetSetting' does not exist <-- when starting the binary
13:07<planetmaker>TrueBrain: because of that maybe: gcc --version
13:07<planetmaker>i686-apple-darwin8-gcc-4.0.1 (GCC) 4.0.1 (Apple Computer, Inc. build 5363)
13:07<SmatZ>planetmaker: update your AI
13:07<planetmaker>SmatZ: I have no AI ;)
13:08<TrueBrain>planetmaker: update your AIs ;)
13:08<dihedral>TrueBrain: nice commit message :-)
13:08<planetmaker>ok... never did that. Let me guess: RTFM ;)
13:09<dihedral>RTFG too
13:09<TrueBrain>planetmaker: no, if you really don't have an extra AI
13:09<planetmaker>but where's TFM :)
13:09<TrueBrain>it should not error
13:09<planetmaker>TrueBrain: clean trunk. Nothing there at all.
13:09<TrueBrain>but there was an API change today
13:09<TrueBrain>any AI you download from the forum is most likely broken at this moment
13:09<planetmaker>only thing is that hg clone ... which yorick posted to get squirrel there
13:09<SmatZ>planetmaker: and in your ~/.openttd forlder?
13:09<OwenS>TrueBrain: May I suggest that libraries have a minor version number also, which must be greater than or equal to the requested?
13:09<TrueBrain>ls bin/ai gives you what?
13:10<TrueBrain>ah the ~/.openttd/ai folder yes ;)
13:10<planetmaker>ls bin/ai
13:10<planetmaker>library regression wrightai
13:10<Zuu>TrueBrain: It's not wrightAI or does it use the AddSetting?
13:10<planetmaker>ah... there.... let me see
13:10<TrueBrain>OwenS: and what good does that do?
13:10<TrueBrain>Zuu: WrightAI is changed already :)
13:10<OwenS>TrueBrain, Allows you to add functions to a library without breaking backwards compatibility
13:11<TrueBrain>fixed planetmaker's bug, in a way which is consistant through-out the code ;)
13:11<TrueBrain>OwenS: minor versions are completely overrated .. for good reason we removed it from the saveload code :)
13:11<TrueBrain>OwenS: you can do that already; just don't update the version at all ;)
13:11<OwenS>Then some AI crashes when it tries to use a too new function :p
13:12<planetmaker>TrueBrain: in ~/Documents/OpenTTD/ai there're obviously two old admirals ;)
13:12<TrueBrain>OwenS: besides, you are allowed to run multiple library functions next to eachother :)
13:12<TrueBrain>ah, true, yes :)
13:12<OwenS>Minor versions work better with code than files :p
13:12<TrueBrain>planetmaker: see ;)
13:12<yorick>error while compiling
13:12<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I guess this is the final stop for gcc2
13:12<TrueBrain>OwenS: well, I can see why you want that, yes, but ... not at this stage :)
13:13<yorick>don't mind the hg sha deprecation warning
13:13<TrueBrain>I will put it on the list to consider :)
13:13<TrueBrain>SmatZ: oh shit .. hmm .. gcc2 .. we did fix that at some point
13:13<TrueBrain>just I guess it got reintroduced ;)
13:13<yorick>I have gcc4
13:13<yorick>it doesn't compile ;)
13:13<OwenS>Better question: Why are people still using GCC2 ?
13:14<OwenS>Are they also using Red Hat 9 and Debian Woody?
13:14<planetmaker>ok, with the old AIs gone, there's no warning :) Ty TB
13:14<TrueBrain>OwenS: MorphOS
13:14<TrueBrain>SmatZ: if you can check if moving code around a bit can help?
13:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15036 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_tile.cpp tree_gui.cpp): -Fix: use the same value for 'random' through-out the code for PlantTree
13:15<TrueBrain>and ty planetmaker for letting me know the warning :)
13:15<OwenS>TrueBrain: Theres GCC 4 for PowerPC also!
13:15<OwenS>Why are they not using a modern compiler?!
13:16<TrueBrain>OwenS: PowerPC != MorphOS :)
13:16<TrueBrain>MorphOS happens to run on a ppc
13:16<OwenS>What I'm saying is... theres no reason for them not to support GCC4
13:16<TrueBrain>because their binary format is not supported by it
13:16<planetmaker>OwenS: it's work...
13:17<TrueBrain>is most likely the reason ;)
13:17<OwenS>planetmaker: And GCC2 is a fossil
13:17<OwenS>*afk food*
13:17<TrueBrain>it is not that easy to port your morphos binary support stuff from gcc2 to gcc4 ;)
13:17<+glx><TrueBrain> planetmaker: nice error; I wonder why no other compiler noticed it <-- win9x build should have it in the logs
13:17<TrueBrain>I agree, food :)
13:17<SmatZ>@kban owens you are fossil
13:17<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
13:17<OwenS>TrueBrain: OK, add elf support to MrophOS :p
13:17<TrueBrain>OwenS: see, that is a more sane thing to do ;)
13:18<TrueBrain>SmatZ: it appears to be case sensitive for some weird reason :p
13:18<SmatZ>@kban OwenS you are fossil
13:18<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
13:18<SmatZ>I don't have rights...
13:18<TrueBrain>@kban OwenS you are fossil
13:18-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
13:18-!-OwenS was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [you are fossil]
13:19<TrueBrain>clearly ..
13:19<TrueBrain>weird, it shouldn't error ..
13:19<planetmaker>it helps to be admin, I was told...
13:19-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:19<SmatZ>TrueBrain: I don't know how to fix that :-/
13:19-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by TrueBrain
13:19-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:19<SpComb>chanop abuse D:
13:19<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I only can ;)
13:19<TrueBrain>you registered yourself to DorpsGek?
13:19<SmatZ>I don't know?
13:20<SmatZ>probably not
13:20<TrueBrain>@whois SmatZ
13:20<+glx>@whois glx
13:20<Zuu>@whois TrueBrain
13:21<@DorpsGek>glx: glx
13:21<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: I don't recognize you.
13:21<TrueBrain>I hate my SSL delay in IRC chat :(
13:21<+glx>you identified yourself ?
13:21<TrueBrain>SmatZ: so register yourself to DorpsGek, and I can give you slightly more rights ;)
13:21<TrueBrain>but now for real: FOOD!
13:21<SpComb>what's wrong with chanserv?
13:21<SmatZ>bye bye TrueBrain
13:22<planetmaker>SpComb: nothing, but DorpsGek is more mighty than chanserv ;)
13:22<planetmaker>I assume at least. Or more comfortable
13:22<SpComb>DorpsGek lacks the magical powers of ChanServ
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13:28<Zuu>Oh, my compile time only raised form 11 to 15 minutes :)
13:29<TrueBrain>haha @ Zuu :)
13:29<TrueBrain>install ccache :)
13:29*planetmaker will time it after foooood!
13:29<Zuu>TrueBrain: But that is useless with only a laptop.
13:29<Zuu>If I recall correctly ccache distributes the job over several PCs?
13:30<Aali>thats distcc
13:30<+glx><TrueBrain> install ccache :) <-- ask Rubidium about ccache ;)
13:30*Zuu looks up ccache
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13:33<Aali>hmm, full release build with some extra patches, 2:20
13:33<Aali>not bad
13:33<Zuu>2:20 is indeed good.
13:34<Rubidium>yup... ccache is nice, until you notice that it caches too aggressively; like when you notice that with a full recompile without ccache you get lots of compile errors
13:35<+glx>or you search the cause of an assert ;)
13:36-!-Yeggstry [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:37<+glx>2:30 with mingw
13:37<yorick>it doesn't compile here with mingw
13:37<+glx>then you failed somewhere
13:37-!-wgrant [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
13:38<+glx>it always compiled for me, same with MSVC
13:39-!-Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
13:39<@Belugas>it does not compile in here either
13:39<@Belugas>i've got no C++ compiler hehehe
13:39<Wolf01>if you are waiting my hello you fail
13:40<TrueBrain>lol @ Wolf01
13:40<+glx>you just did it so you failed
13:40<Wolf01>congratulations devs for that wonderful commit!
13:40<goodger>Wolf01: we've long since given up on expecting you to speak
13:40<Wolf01>goodger, if you didn't notice, I speak when you're not here :P
13:41<TrueBrain>and I can;t blame you Wolf01
13:41-!-Zahl [] has quit [Quit: Rhabarberbarbarabarbarbarenbartbarbierbierbar]
13:41<Wolf01>TrueBrain, very nice commit message :)
13:41<TrueBrain>and tnx Wolf01 :)
13:41<@Belugas>hey Wolf01 :)
13:42<Wolf01>hello mister :P
13:42<Wolf01>so now you should have more spare time to help me developing the sloped stations
13:42<TrueBrain>lol :)
13:44-!-OwenS [] has joined #openttd
13:44<OwenS>Banning & kicking me while I'm away!
13:44<TrueBrain>had a nice dinner OwenS? :)
13:45<OwenS>Mostly ^^
13:46-!-el_en [] has quit [Quit: hello]
13:46*OwenS wonders what other instructions he can splice into his string unit
13:47<yorick>OwenS: fossile :p
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13:57-!-[alt]buster [] has joined #openttd
13:57<@Belugas>fossile? somebody older than me??
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13:59<+glx>yorick: tried make clean ?
14:00<yorick>I tried a new clone ;)
14:00<@petern>hmm, i guess 3rdparty makes hg much harder? :o
14:00<yorick>btw, it's easy to fix
14:01<TrueBrain>'much' ... just a bit :)
14:01<yorick>you need to do 2 clones
14:01<@Belugas>and then you'll end up a clown
14:01<@petern>i thought squirrel was being ditched anyway :/
14:01<yorick>btw, #include "../../station_base.h"
14:02<yorick>fixed my error
14:02<SmatZ>Belugas: gcc 2 :-P
14:02-!-Alberth [] has joined #openttd
14:02<@petern>note: pressing f6 without f-lock on does not achieve compilage
14:03-!-sigmund_ [] has joined #openttd
14:03-!-Zahl [] has joined #openttd
14:04<@petern>right so how do AIs work?
14:04<SmatZ>hehe :)
14:05-!-sigmund [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:05<goodger>petern: when computers become powerful enough and gather enough information, they spontaneously develop consciousness
14:05<SHRIKEE>it's how AI works
14:05<goodger>or at least, so is the central premise of a number of star trek episodes and a film :S
14:07<SHRIKEE>so when can we expect a streetview interface for openttd?
14:07<OwenS>SHRIKEE, When we develop an algorithm for extracting perspective from 2D sprites and filling in back faces
14:07<goodger>OwenS: I believe that's been done already :S
14:08<SHRIKEE>so real soon then
14:08<OwenS>And when CSI share with us their image enahncement algorithms
14:08<goodger>someone used it to add extra detail to videos by transplanting still photographs into them
14:08<goodger>SHRIKEE: so you should expect it on the seventeenth of july 2011
14:08<OwenS>goodger: Yeah, but they haven't developed a back face filler :p
14:08<SHRIKEE>not sooner? :(
14:09<@petern>do we only get WrightAI?
14:09<goodger>maybe the friday before...
14:09<SHRIKEE>ah good
14:09<goodger>so perhaps the 15th
14:09<TrueBrain>petern: for now; yes. the rest is on the forum :)
14:09<frosch123>there is currently no working AI on the forum :p
14:09<SHRIKEE>i cleaned up my install the other day... stripped out 200mb of i dunno what
14:09*OwenS wonders how hes gonna shift 33k passengers away from this station
14:09<SHRIKEE>but ingame nothing changed
14:10<SHRIKEE>i guess it's all mods and stuff
14:10<goodger>OwenS: quadruple the size and run maglevs
14:10<@petern>that's a bit weak
14:10-!-mikl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:10<TrueBrain>Yexo: update your AI already :p
14:10<@petern>we need to replace wrightai with something more general
14:11<OwenS>goodger, It's Maglev (well, Shinkansen), and I can't quadruple the size because theres CBD on all 3½ sides
14:11<@petern>do the AIs understand the difficulty settings?
14:11<OwenS>WrightAI makes me think of two things: The Wright Flyer, and Will Wright...
14:11<SHRIKEE>hmmm a 64x64 map is a bit smaller than i thought :O
14:11<TrueBrain>petern: understand .. well .. they can read it :)
14:11<@petern>OwenS, it's aircraft only. take a guess...
14:11<TrueBrain>OwenS: good thought :)
14:12<TrueBrain>petern: in time
14:12<@petern>before 0.7.0
14:13<TrueBrain>petern: make one ;)
14:15<@petern>no thanks
14:15<OwenS>Even worse: Said station with 32k passengers is at capacity already (and has 8 platforms full of 11 tile long trains)
14:16<@petern>Failed WrightAI
14:17<@petern>will that be removed?
14:17<goodger>OwenS: extend the station
14:17<yorick>there is no such thing as aircrafts :p
14:17<TrueBrain>it happens
14:17<goodger>or add a parallel line of buses
14:17<Yexo>petern: try a more flat map
14:17<yorick>at least now it knows it fails and tries to bankrupt itself asap
14:17<Aali>WrightAI is.. simple :P
14:18<OwenS>goodger: Extend the station where: Into city, into city, into city and canal, or into entrance junction?
14:18<OwenS>It's landlocked on all sides
14:18<Aali>petern: AIs are affected by competitor build speed
14:18<Aali>and start time, of course
14:18-!-yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [hello]
14:19<Forked>yorick kick #51256125,2
14:19<@petern>what happens to old save games currently?
14:19<Forked>(yes, point two)
14:19<Yexo>a random AI is started to replace the original ai
14:19<TrueBrain>a new AI is attached to the AI company, and if it can handle what it has, it will, else .. well .. nothing really :)
14:20<OwenS>TrueBrain: So, if Wright AI was chosen, would it crash, or would it just ignore what was there and build airports? :p
14:20<Yexo>wrightai will ignore the stuff there already is
14:20<@petern>i can't load a 0.6.3 save
14:20<TrueBrain>OwenS: WrightAI is an example AI; it ignores EVERYTHING and always starts like it was its first day on the job
14:20<worldemar>and builds only airports?
14:20<OwenS>I just selected WAI because it's all thats included ATM
14:20<TrueBrain>petern: trace it why not :)
14:22<@petern>i am
14:22<@petern>invalid chunk size, so far
14:22<@petern>just setting breakpoints
14:22<TrueBrain>which chunk?
14:23<@petern>nextofs 668252
14:23<@petern>PLYR, obviously :p
14:24<TrueBrain>so either Rubidium did something bad, or something is funny :)
14:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r15037 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove unused file src/table/ai_rail.h
14:27<TrueBrain>petern: company_base.h
14:27<TrueBrain>- Company(uint16 name_1 = 0, bool is_ai = false);
14:27<TrueBrain>+ Company(uint16 name_1 = 0, bool is_ai = false, bool is_noai = false);
14:27<TrueBrain>does that help at all?
14:27-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
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14:28<TrueBrain>that is very wrong
14:29<TrueBrain>petern: company_cmd.cpp
14:29<TrueBrain>- this->is_noai = true;
14:29<TrueBrain>+ this->is_noai = false;
14:30<@petern>that does it
14:30<@petern>the companies all get renamed to WrightAI
14:30<@petern>(with a #n)
14:31<@petern>that is quite silly
14:31<TrueBrain>part of WrightAI, yes
14:31<TrueBrain>write a better AI ;)
14:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15038 /trunk/src/ (company_base.h company_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r15027): loading older savegames failed
14:31<@petern>0.6.3 is not exactly old an uncommon
14:31<TrueBrain>I guess we should retrigger the nightly, as this bug is kind of nasty ;)
14:32<@petern>it's only a nightly
14:32<TrueBrain>even a savegame from yesterday would fail to load ;)
14:32<SmatZ>TrueBrain: it's better to assign values in the constructor initializer list (or how is it called ;)
14:32<@petern>you should put a warning up
14:32<@petern>anyone who plays with AI should not bother
14:32<@petern>becuase currently it's not playable
14:33<TrueBrain>petern: it really is easier to just retrigger a nightly in that case ;)
14:33<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I agree :)
14:33<@petern>why? it won't help people who play with AIs
14:34<Zuu>Since there are people out there that reads the commit log, maybe include such a warning in a commit that is somewhat related to the warning :)
14:34<TrueBrain>without, you mean?
14:36<@petern>no with
14:37<TrueBrain>then I don't follow you
14:37<TrueBrain>oh, I think I get it
14:37<TrueBrain>just download AdmiralAI, and I think you will have fun
14:37<TrueBrain>@kick mikegrb goodbyte
14:37-!-mikegrb was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [goodbyte]
---Logclosed Mon Jan 12 14:37:40 2009
---Logopened Mon Jan 12 14:38:41 2009
14:38-!-Irssi: You are now talking in #openttd
14:38-!-mikegrb [] has joined #openttd
14:38-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 117 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 111 normal]
14:38-!-Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 0 secs
14:38<@petern>it was easy enough to remove one :p
14:38<mikegrb>sorry :/
14:38<SpComb>DorpsGek is pretty trigger-happy today
14:38<mikegrb>elbow on the other keryboad
14:39<TrueBrain>SpComb: you considered those 0's useful?
14:39<SpComb>the kick, rejoin and apology was almost as much noise
14:39<TrueBrain>mikegrb: weird place for your elbow :p
14:40<TrueBrain>(hitting the 0 and enter :p)
14:41<TrueBrain>even there ;)
14:42<Zuu>Still there is a dot key in-between zero and enter on most keyboards.
14:43<TrueBrain>my point exactly :)
14:43<yorick>he did the dot once
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14:47<Steve-N>the noise after the kick rejoin and apology was even more noise
14:48<OwenS>And the commenting about the noise after the kick rejoin and apology was just even more
14:48<yorick>the noise of saying that again is even more noise
14:48<TrueBrain>I am starting to feel trigger happy again
14:48*OwenS cowers
14:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r15039 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: fix comments regarding old AI, remove one old AI hack
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14:50<Steve-N>so anyone interested in testing my aggressive conductors patch (FS#2530) ?
14:51<SmatZ>Steve-N: it is similiar to not using Full-Load orders, isn't it?
14:52<Steve-N>it only does something when not using full-load
14:52<Steve-N>vehicles will stop loading and loading and loading tiny little pieces of cargo when not using full-load with this option
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14:53<OwenS>How hard would it be to recreate the original AS (Artificial Stupidity) with NoAI? :p
14:53<Rubidium>infinitively hard
14:53<TrueBrain>as said a few days ago
14:53<TrueBrain>NoAI can't cheat
14:53<SmatZ>Steve-N: does it have a significant effect on gameplay?
14:54<Steve-N>depends on how you play the game :) when using non-full-load orders and multiple trains serving a single platform (or platforms in different directions with cargodest), trains actually will leave the station without waiting for full load
14:55<TrueBrain>for those who care:
14:56<SmatZ>releases 1338
14:56<SmatZ>not bad :)
14:57<@petern>OwenS: and the savegame data it uses is lost
14:57<frosch123>ohoh, now they will keep downloading old realeases to create some asciiart with the numbers or similiar oO
14:57<@Belugas>Steve-N, I do not like the "agressive" part name of your patch. does not really reflect the feature...
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14:57<SmatZ>hehe @ frosch123
14:57-!-yorick is now known as Guest150
14:58<SmatZ>TrueBrain: weeeheee stats! :)
14:58*OwenS wonders to himself why towns eat so much CPU
14:58<SmatZ>OwenS: gprof?
14:59<Steve-N>hm yeah i came up with the name after someone made a remark about the conductors being very friendly (though another word was used, can't remeber it and my irc client didn't log this afternoon;)
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14:59<frosch123>Steve-N: it would also be better if it were a loading option in the orders gui, instead of a global setting for all companies
15:00<SmatZ>and then set is as default...
15:00<Steve-N>hmm, yes that might be nice
15:00<SmatZ>it can be stored in the Player struct though
15:00<OwenS>I was about to go "We have enough memory for that?", before realising "this ins't the map array..."
15:00<Steve-N>as no-one seemed to agree with me that it's a bug, i made it configurable and disabled by default
15:00<SmatZ>so it is set per-Company
15:01<frosch123>well, it has been long since the last "load xx%" patch showed up
15:01<Tim>W00t? NoAI in trunk?
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15:02<frosch123>though with cargodest, that would be silly I guess
15:02<Steve-N>especially with cargodest, default loading really screws up time-tabling
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15:03<Aali>a better solution to that may be a timetabling option "always leave on time"
15:03<Aali>which ignores full load or whatever and just leaves the station when the time is up
15:04<Yexo>working version of AdmiralAI can be found here:
15:04<Steve-N>i think that would be a nice additional option (or order). i don't want my trains to leave before all waiting passengers have boarded
15:05<Steve-N>(meaning all passengers that were already waiting before the train arrived at the station)
15:05<mrfrenzy>a train *can't* leave until all waiting passengers have entered
15:05<mrfrenzy>as it will be impossible to close the door until they have stepped clear
15:05<Steve-N>it could when forced to keep it's timetable
15:05<mrfrenzy>(going for realism here)
15:05<Steve-N>go to tokyo, take the subway, and be amazed
15:06<mrfrenzy>well I've only used public transport in .se, .de and .no
15:06<Steve-N>(trying more realism here also)
15:06<Swallow>I agree with Aali here that it might be better to make it a timetabling option.
15:06<planetmaker>Steve-N: but there you have a "shoving person" at each door ;)
15:06<OwenS>I disagree with Aali as I don't use timetables :p
15:07<Steve-N>well here (.nl) the conductor usually does give people a chance to get on the train. but when you're just running off the escalator when he blows his whistle, the train won't wait
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15:07<Aali>the great thing about such a solution is that you can set up a timetable that only specifies loading times
15:07<Rubidium>Steve-N: in Tokyo they wait till the train/metro is full
15:07<Rubidium>or when there are no people coming anymore
15:07<Aali>so even if you dont play with timetables normally, you can still use it
15:08<Steve-N>so when the train isn't full, it will just keep waiting for all slow people coming in the station?
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15:09<Rubidium>Steve-N: effectively yes
15:09<@Belugas>[15:07] <Steve-N> (trying more realism here also) <-- freaks
15:09<Steve-N>even when the next train is waiting behind it already?
15:09<mrfrenzy>Steve-N: ofcourse, but if there are people currently going into the train, less than 1m from the doors, they will not close if the train is not full
15:09<Steve-N>yeah i'm a realism freak, sorry
15:09<Rubidium>though people run to the train when it comes and when they can't make it they are far from the train when it leaves
15:09<@Belugas>play sims then... not openttd
15:10<Steve-N>oh, wow. here (.nl) trains will just leave, you just should have run faster
15:10-!-dyzdyz [~dyzdyz@] has joined #openttd
15:10<dyzdyz>hi all
15:10<TrueBrain>depends on how nice you are
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15:11<TrueBrain>hi dyzdyz
15:11<@Belugas>hello dyzdyz
15:11<@petern>now vs won't run it :(
15:11<Steve-N>actually i used to play (a hugely modified verison of) simcity a lot, until my linux server crashed and i trashed my windows workstation to build a new linux server. and then started playing openttd ;)
15:11<TrueBrain>petern: you broke it!
15:11<@petern>what've i done wrong? i just get a black console window pop up and then disappear...
15:11<@Belugas>well... a little rule, it 's not aimed at realism ;)
15:11<Steve-N>that's why i made it an option, so you can choose!;)
15:12<Steve-N>but even when you don't want realism, it generates more income for your company!:)
15:12<Zuu>Aali: Exactly how I use timetables today, setting a minimum wait time at stations.
15:12<@Belugas>strange... i'd be more inclined to have a feature that cost more...
15:12<dyzdyz>i've got a little question
15:12<Aali>yes, but you cant set a maximum wait time.. which sucks sometimes
15:13<TrueBrain>dyzdyz: make sure it is little ;)
15:13<@Belugas>i've got a little black book with my poems in...
15:13<Steve-N>(actually i really don't care about company income, as it's a lot more than i can spend after say a month)
15:13<dyzdyz>i've got a scenario with 2048^2 map of europe
15:13<dyzdyz>but i don't know how to use generictrams with it
15:13<dyzdyz>i can use some other grf's
15:13<dyzdyz>what can be a problem here?
15:13<@petern>where's the entry point for win32?
15:14<@Belugas>dyzdyz, on which version do you play your scenario? P.S.: latest is not am option
15:15<@petern>oh, that'll do it
15:15<@petern>start up project was set at strgen :p
15:15<dyzdyz>i use h3b244a8f Cargodest
15:15<dyzdyz>and Generictrams works fine with generated map
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15:16<Zuu>Aali: Why I don't like to use hg more than necessary is that the versions are not sequential.
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15:16<Aali>Zuu: but they are
15:16<Zuu>Not in a readable form what i can tell.
15:16<dyzdyz>ok, just found solution for myself
15:16<Steve-N>dyzdyz: would that be CarstsEuropeScenario?
15:16<Steve-N>ehm, ok
15:16<dyzdyz>sorry for interrupting your conversation
15:16<@Belugas>when yuo've started your map, was there already a generic tram set specified in your grf seting? If not, i think you're screwed to re-strt tye scenario
15:16<Steve-N>(no problem with those trams and that map here anyway)
15:17<Aali>Zuu: the little number before the hash in hg log is also a valid identifier ;)
15:17<dyzdyz>Belugas: i seems to conflict with longvehicles
15:22*Belugas is not an expert at mixing grfs
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15:24<Steve-N>dyzdyz: it does? i don't get any warnings or errors when adding long vehicles to a game where generic trams (0.4) are already used
15:27<Steve-N>what generic trams version are you using, dyzdyz? (as i'm using (a modified version) of h3b244a8f too, with generic trams 0.4, without any problems. even tried it on windows..)
15:28<dyzdyz>Steve-N: generictrams 0.4
15:29<dyzdyz>Steve-N: when i disable longvehicles then generictrams works fine
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15:29<Steve-N>hm, strange, same here.. and where did you get those long vehicles?
15:29<dyzdyz>Steve-N: and i don't get any warnings
15:29<dyzdyz>Steve-N: GRFCrawler i suppose
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15:30<Steve-N>oh, ok, than we seem to have the same result (but i'm not running any of the vehicles from those long vehicles)
15:30<dyzdyz>Steve-N: what modification have you done to h3b244a8f?
15:31<Steve-N>FS#2530 :)
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15:32<Steve-N>but that shouldn't make any difference for grf's
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15:34<dyzdyz>just curious
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15:44<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: are the changes to projects/openttd_vs80.sln in r15027 wanted?
15:45<@petern>they may well be fixed later
15:45<TrueBrain>michi_cc: why wouldn't they?
15:45<@petern>(if they're broken)
15:45<TrueBrain>michi_cc: ah, I see what you mean
15:46<TrueBrain>michi_cc: ask glx ;)
15:47<@petern>i see
15:47<@petern>it gets changed to that automatically for me
15:49<+glx>michi_cc: dunno
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15:54<+michi_cc>glx: it disables x64-builds for vs2005, I'd say that wasn't meant that way
15:55<@Belugas>what where when how?
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15:56<SmatZ>someone please fix that sln file, so we have r15040, and I can run another benchmark ;)
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15:58<@Belugas>@seen someone
15:58<@DorpsGek>Belugas: someone was last seen in #openttd 50 weeks, 3 days, 2 hours, 6 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
15:59<SpComb>mm, 50 weeks old, it's a finely aged joke
16:00<@Belugas>like old wine and men, getting better while aging :)
16:00<@Belugas>like me!!
16:01<nicfer>What happened to the custom bridgeheads patch?
16:02<@Belugas>waht are the possible answers?
16:02<frosch123>everyone abandoned it
16:02<+glx>michi_cc: it's TrueBrain's fault I think
16:02<+glx>I can't find any similar changes in noai nor trunk before the merge
16:03<+glx>ha no it's me in r12826
16:04<Zuu>@commit r12826
16:04<@DorpsGek>Zuu: Invalid arguments for _commit.
16:04<+glx>it's a sync
16:04<+glx>@commit 12826
16:04<@DorpsGek>glx: Commit by glx :: r12826 /branches/noai (80 files in 5 dirs) (2008-04-21 21:15:50 UTC)
16:04<@DorpsGek>glx: [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12780:12824
16:04<@Belugas>@seen commit 12826
16:04<@DorpsGek>Belugas: seen [<channel>] <nick>
16:05<Steve-N>so belugas, what about these reality freaks
16:05<@Belugas>they suck big time
16:05<Steve-N>'For once, TTD almost looked real,' is what google comes up with ;)
16:05<@Belugas>come on...
16:06<@Belugas>look at the proprotions of the vehicles/houses/else
16:06<@Belugas>they are all off
16:06<nicfer>Do the devs like that patch or is it like tracks over tunnel entrances?
16:06<+glx>michi_cc: feel free to revert this change (you're the one with an x64 ;) )
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16:07<Steve-N>oh proportions, i've been looking at those... why are the catchment areas this unrealistically small?
16:07<Zuu>Steve-N: Gameplay
16:08<frosch123>Steve-N: use distant-join to make them unrealistically huge
16:08-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Poef!]
16:08<@Belugas>because it's a gaaaaaameeeeuh
16:08<Steve-N>distant-join so you can build several stations which are one for the game?
16:09<Steve-N>game doesn't mean it can't be at least trying to be a little bit realistic
16:09-!-tom0004 [~Tom@] has quit [Quit:]
16:09<@Belugas>and how would you feel if we'd make it so that the bridges would take REALISTIC time to be constructed? like... 2-3 years?
16:09<Steve-N>so in like 1980 when ttd was build, maps couldn't be large so large catchment areas wouldn't make sense. but now we can have huge maps, right?
16:09<nicfer>If you want a realistic game buy Crysis ;)
16:10<SpComb>not very realistic what with the keyboard and mouse
16:10<SpComb>and you don't even die if you get shot in-game
16:10<Zuu>Steve-N: Would you really want a game with all scales 1:1?
16:10<Steve-N>Zuu: yes i do :-)
16:11<nicfer>Heh, not even Second Life is 100% realistic
16:11<Zuu>Steve-N: Then lets apply for an education in transportation and become a transportation planer :)
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16:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r15040 /trunk/projects/openttd_vs80.sln: -Fix (r15027): Don't disable support for Win64 in the VS2005 project file.
16:12<TrueBrain>glx: how could you even consider blaming me :) I never ever touched such files :)
16:12<Steve-N>100% realistic wouldn't be possible without it actually being real, but a tiny little bit closer than we are now would be nice...
16:12<@Belugas>Steve-N, well... 1:1 scale means TTD will loose it's curent touch
16:12<@Belugas>and it will become BOOOOORINY
16:12<Zuu>Steve-N: That is what I am doing ATM actually
16:13<Steve-N>ATM? automated teller machine?
16:13<Zuu>Steve-N: At the moment
16:13<@Belugas>Steve-N, no, making it closer to reality will just make it loose its essence. There is no reason nor need to make it more real. It's lready popular. it will not gain more popularity with more realism. Look at Locomotion. It's closer to reality. It did not gain as much followers as Opent
16:14<@Belugas>nor patch nor original TTD
16:15<Steve-N>Belugas: it is? so i should get a windows machine and try locomotion? damn...
16:16<@Belugas>yeah, and leave us alone with the R word
16:16<nicfer>We should focus on making city growth harder in temperate
16:16<@Belugas>i dont mind adding stuff that enhance game play, but adding stuff just to make it closer to R is ... <VOMIT NOISE>
16:17<Steve-N>making it closer to realism might even enhance gameplay
16:17<Zuu>nicfer: I have never understood why people so much favor temperate over the other climates.
16:17<Steve-N>Zuu: maybe because most of them are used to living in there
16:17<@petern>locomotion's shit
16:18<Steve-N>so about this realism thing... i guess cargodest won't have any chance of ever getting into trunk then?
16:18<Aali>cargodest is not a realism thing
16:19<Zuu>Steve-N: There is a difference between argumenting for something only because it adds realism, or if realism is a bi-product of a gameplay enhancement.
16:19<Steve-N>to me it's a lot more realistic when passengers actually want to go somewhere, instead of paying me for dropping them off anywhere
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16:19<Alberth>Steve-N: the keyword is that it must be FUN to play
16:20<Zuu>Steve-N: Still in cargodest where they want to go is highly dependent on what options you provide.
16:20<SpComb>like Empire Earth
16:20<Aali>it IS more realistic, but it would never have been created if there wasn't any gameplay value
16:20*Belugas nods
16:21<@Belugas>by-product of a gameplay enhancement
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16:21<@Belugas>newindustry/newcargo : same thing
16:21<Steve-N>sure. i never said realism is the only goal. but in a lot of cases, realism will add to more gameplay value
16:21<@Belugas>it's the other way around
16:22<@Belugas>not at all
16:22<Aali>and yet "everyone" on the forums is crying for more realism in cargodest :/
16:22<Steve-N>:) because realism is fun gameplay!
16:22<@Belugas>you're a sicko
16:23<Steve-N>before cargodest, i didn't really care about openttd. was way too easy. now with cargodest, it's becoming interesting
16:23<Alberth>Aali: because the current settings is too difficult, and users have no control over it
16:23<Alberth>Steve-N: 'interesting', not 'realistic'
16:24<Zuu>Steve-N: The reason you care for OpenTTD with cargodest is that it has become more difficult and have added gameplay value. This is not strictly connected to realism.
16:24<Steve-N>that's right
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16:24<Aali>cargodest makes OTTD more difficult?
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16:24<+glx><TrueBrain> glx: how could you even consider blaming me :) I never ever touched such files :) <-- but you are the one in the log and in svn blame ;)
16:25<Aali>that depends on your playstyle
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16:25<TrueBrain>glx: ..... DOH! :p
16:25<Steve-N>so anyway, about this other great patch, which might seem realistic, but just isn't. have you ever had a conductor slam the door on you? so try it!;)
16:27<mrfrenzy>will this not decrease profit?
16:27<Steve-N>if you're expecting your vehicles to wait until full, without full-load order, it might
16:28<Steve-N>in my case, it hugely increases profit, as there won't be any trains queueing up and cargo (passengers) actually are being moved
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16:36<worldemar>if i transfer some cargo from A to B, and then from B to C, where cargo is accepted, then total income from moving A -> C is equal to direct transfer from A to C? (assume transfer times are equal)
16:37<Aali>in theory, yes
16:37<nicfer>Maybe if temperate towns require food or goods it will be more challenging
16:37<worldemar>okay, and when cargo moves from A to B... transport gives income or not?
16:38<Yexo>you don't get any money at that point
16:38<worldemar>so, if B is very close to C, then little line from B to C will give me all the money, including A-B transfer?
16:38<mrfrenzy>you can however use a transfer order for a-b
16:39<mrfrenzy>and the a-b train will get "virtual money"
16:39<mrfrenzy>which will then be deducted from the huge profit b-c train otherwise would have made
16:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15041 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r15038): use the ctor auto thing how it is meant to be used (tnx to SmatZ for pointing that out)
16:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15042 /trunk/src/ai/ai_info.cpp: -Fix (r15027): don't leak memory in AIInfo (Yexo)
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16:40<worldemar>if transfer order 1) is set: i can take money even if cargo dosen't reach destination 2) is not set: all money will income only on arrive to destination
16:41<worldemar>maybe there is wiki page for it? sorry for flooding here)
16:41<Rubidium>there certainly is
16:41<Zuu>worldemar: Watch your economy window to see when you earn the money.
16:42<worldemar>i am making huge network of train lines. there are some routes i can do only by ransfer through several stations...
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16:42<Zuu>Yellow money (transfer) is not earned for the company until the passenger/goods reach their final destination.
16:42<worldemar>o, thanks a lot!
16:45<worldemar>had read that.
16:49<worldemar>Zuu: so, "transfer" is to share profit between two trains without making one of them "negative-profit"
16:49<worldemar>is that right?
16:49<Yexo>that is right
16:50<Yexo>there is another difference: without using transfer, if the 'middle' station accepts the cargo it'll vanish, but with the transfer option the cargo will always stay at the station
16:50<worldemar>mmm, that's cool
16:53<worldemar>"feeder service" wiki-page was really helpful, thanks!
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17:01*Belugas runs home, hoping his repo over there is not going to be too messy
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17:16*worldemar remembers about work tomorrow and saves his transport company
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19:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15043 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix: just try to change the AI, and see if that succeeded, instead of hoping you understand the internals of a change AI routine (to avoid possible mistakes in the future)
19:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15044 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_config.cpp ai_config.hpp): -Add [NoAI]: AIConfig::GetVersion(), to get the version of the current AI
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20:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15045 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs):
20:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add [NoAI API CHANGE]: in info.nut you can now have (optional) a CanLoadFromVersion(version), which should return true/false, to indicate if you can load a savegame made with your AI of version 'version'
20:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add [NoAI API CHANGE]: in main.nut the Load() function now should be Load(version, data), where 'version' is the version of your AI which made the savegame
20:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange [NoAI]: various of function renames to make things more sane
20:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add [NoAI]: push the 'version' of the AI through various of layers
20:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange [NoAI]: various of code cleanups
20:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add [NoAI]: store the version of the AI in the savegame too
20:48-!-lobstar is now known as lobster
20:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15046 /trunk/src/ai/ai_info.cpp: -Fix (r15045): in case CanLoadFromRevision does not exist, only allow savedata from the same version as we are now
20:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15047 /trunk/src/ai/ai_info.cpp: -Fix [NoAI]: AICONFIG_BOOLEAN (in AddSetting) doesn't require (or even allow) a min/max setting .. it is always 0/1 (Yexo)
20:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15048 /trunk/src/ai/ai_info.cpp: -Fix (r15047): the one time you don't compile a patch of someone, it contains a warning .. ;)
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21:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r15049 /trunk/src/ai/ai_info.cpp: -Fix (r15045): MSVC performance warning
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21:32<governor>I was just curious if it was possible to make OpenTTD save its settings to the openttd directory or something, I want to play it off of a USB stick.
21:33<governor>nevermind, i found it in the readme :)
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 13 00:00:04 2009