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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-02-21

---Logopened Sat Feb 21 00:00:52 2009
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02:22<Felicitus>yay! my ai has the first train running! :)
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02:22<Alberth>the era of great wealth has started!
02:24<Felicitus>and actually the first train makes real good profit
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02:59<Yexo>good morning
03:00<Yexo>Felicitus: are you still here?
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03:16<Felicitus>hello yexo
03:16<Felicitus>yes, i'm still here :)
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03:16<Yexo>congratz with getting a train running :)
03:17<Felicitus>thanks :) the results look pretty good for now
03:17<Yexo>and I found a function you might find usefull, although I'm a bit late.
03:17<Felicitus>which one?
03:17<Yexo>Calling notifyallexceptions(false); disables printing of all catched exceptions
03:18<Felicitus>yes, its already to late, i completely avoided exceptions
03:18<Felicitus>its a bit unorthodox - as soon as building a track fails, all subsequent track building calls immediately return
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03:18<Yexo>as long as it works :p
03:18<Felicitus>there's alot of stuff i need to change later
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03:19<Felicitus>the station site finder for just iterates from all coordinates and tries to place the station layout there :)
03:19<Felicitus>but it works pretty quick
03:20<Yexo>be sure to test your AI with lower AI speeds (as can be set in the difficulty window)
03:20<Yexo>that can make a huge difference
03:20<Alberth>if there is enough room, it apparently finds a good spot soon
03:20<Felicitus>construction speed? or opcodes?
03:20<Yexo>construction speed
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03:20<Felicitus>does this also apply to test calls?
03:21<Yexo>construction speed sets how often your AI gets a tick
03:21<Felicitus>oh ok
03:21<Yexo>very fast = every AI gets called every gametick
03:21<Yexo>fast = every AI gets called every second gametick
03:21<Felicitus>well, now it takes a littlebit more time
03:21<Felicitus>but it still is acceptable
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03:25<Felicitus>now its time for the AI to automatically extend the train with wagons and enlarge the station if it has enough money over for the initial track
03:26<Felicitus>by the way, the max_cost parameter in the RailPathFinder it is the cost of the internal cost calulcation, not the real money, right?
03:27<Yexo>that's right
03:27<Yexo>it doesn't keep track of the real money at all
03:27<Felicitus>okay, i work with a multiplicator of 2 for the pathfinder - works pretty good. of course the tracks arent perfect, but they are good enough to start with
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03:40<Felicitus>time for bed
03:40<Felicitus>good night
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04:27<Unaimed>How do i "alt-tab" to other applications when running openttd (linux)? Alt-tab doesn't work for me
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04:29<el_en>you mean in fullscreen?
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04:30<Tefad>Unaimed: depends on your window manager. alt+tab works in many
04:30<Tefad>you can also try alt+rmb and drag your foreground window out of the way
04:30<el_en>not in fullscreen.
04:31<Tefad>oh really?
04:31<Tefad>i can move full screen mplayer windows no problem
04:31<Tefad>again, probably depends on your window manager
04:31<el_en>Tefad: i think we were talking about openttd, not mplayer.
04:31<Tefad>yes, but i'm not clear as to why the behavior will be the same
04:32<Unaimed>i'll try that
04:32<Tefad>i've not run ottd in a while. i plan to soon though
04:32<@petern>if it's fullscreen, you can't
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04:32<@petern>this is the fault of SDL
04:32<Tefad>my solution is to run it in windowed mode with the resolution similar to that of my display
04:32<Unaimed>petern, so it isn't possible?
04:32<el_en>Tefad: because it doesn't work the same way as mplayer. do you need to be so smart without even trying?
04:32<Tefad>you can position the window in such a way that the decorations are off screen.
04:33<Tefad>el_en: excuse me. i am merely making suggestions. i am not saying i am correct.
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04:34<el_en>ciao, Lupo01
04:36<el_en>a few years ago i attempted to change SDL so that its fullscreen wouldn't be a "real" fullscreen but a borderless window at screen resolution.
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04:38<el_en>but due to my very limited skills on X11 programming, I didn't manage to make the window float above top/bottom panels.
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04:45<@petern>a train depot with $lots of vehicles in it makes PBS suck hard :/
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04:47<Wolf01>make drive trough depots then
04:49<Tefad>hmm, yes sdl fullscreen does suck. i don't remember it because i decided against using it many many years ago
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05:37<George35>DaleStan: Is Vehicle cargo info (47) available in purchase window?
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05:59<Elukka>what's this thing about program files being read only on vista?
05:59<Elukka>is this something that applies to non-admin accounts only?
05:59<Elukka>because mine sure are writable
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06:07<dihedral>his first name starts with a g and his last name is uest
06:08<dihedral>was a bit surprised when he got his computer and the account already existed :-P
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06:15<Elukka>no, i know there is something like that invista
06:15<Elukka>in vista*
06:15<Elukka>i've seen people having problems with it in other games, too
06:15<Elukka>i'm just curious since i have never encountered it
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06:21<welshdragon> < interest is picking up on myidea
06:21<welshdragon>wrong link
06:21<welshdragon>that picture is still funny though :D
06:21<dihedral>why is it funny?
06:21<welshdragon> is what i meant to link to
06:22<Elukka>his idea is mass transit for sheep
06:22<dihedral>it's a dog
06:22<welshdragon>it\s a sheep
06:22<Elukka>welsh, i have actually wanted that creature for a long time
06:23<Elukka>first there were speed signs, then that patch fell out of development
06:23<Elukka>then there were route markers, same happened to that..
06:23<welshdragon>Elukka: 8D
06:23<Elukka>not creature
06:24<Elukka>yeah so i'm tired
06:24<welshdragon>(cool dude)
06:24<Elukka>i deny any and all potential allegations of being inclined to sheep
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06:26*welshdragon cioies and oastes that into the tycoon QDB
06:26<Elukka>there's a QDB? :D
06:29<welshdragon>that should be added to the topic
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06:35<Wolf01>bah, you missed most of the ones I saved :D
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06:38<OsteHovel^PDA>Is it posible to play CO-OP with a AI?
06:38<OsteHovel^PDA>(svn version)
06:38<Wolf01>Yes it is, cheat mode, but I don't know if the AI will be happy
06:38<OsteHovel^PDA>oo i got an ide.
06:39<dihedral>does the ai not quit as soon as one cheats and interfears?
06:39<OsteHovel^PDA>if i create a network server and add ai's then join the server :P
06:39<OsteHovel^PDA>maybe i can join the ai's company
06:39*OsteHovel^PDA needs to test it out
06:40<dihedral>you cannot
06:40<dihedral>you cannot join ai companies on mp games
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06:47<OsteHovel^PDA>noo.. i cant join the irc server at my laptop
06:47<OsteHovel^PDA>it cant connect
06:47<OsteHovel^PDA>it worked when i just used ip and not dns
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06:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15539 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: If an aircraft cannot carry any available cargo, it should not be available either instead of falling back to passenger/mail. Just like the other vehicle types also do.
06:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15540 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Testing of 'only_this' in CmdRefitRoadVeh() could be skipped by 'continue'.
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07:21<LUADuck>autostart is a bust
07:22<LUADuck>it's all setup for configuring a client
07:22<LUADuck>anyone know of any properly made dedicated-mode ones?
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07:32<dihedral>LUADuck, what's the issue?
07:41*SHRIKEE eyes some people
07:42*SHRIKEE wonders if the biggest map can be one huge city ^^
07:42<SHRIKEE>well, all the hundreds of smaller ones... covering the entire thing
07:42<planetmaker>SHRIKEE: yes.
07:42<SHRIKEE>i got some work to do then
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07:43<planetmaker>I think you have a very yelling nickname
07:43<planetmaker>(all caps)
07:43<SHRIKEE>nothing i can do about that
07:44*planetmaker had a choice about his nickname
07:44<SHRIKEE>so did i, i chose this
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07:47<Roest>so shrike was taken or is it no reference to hyperion?
07:48<dihedral>SHRIKEE, try using caps lock for a change
07:49<SHRIKEE>I WILL dihedral
07:49<SHRIKEE>Roest: yea a slight reference, but that's Shrike, isn't it?
07:50<SHRIKEE>although a shrikee is a bird also
07:50<planetmaker>which would be much nicer
07:50<dihedral>birds are small
07:51<SHRIKEE>so are you if you think that nitpicking over ones nickname is useful
07:51<dihedral>nitpicking is not the part that makes it useful
07:52<SHRIKEE>then what :o
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15541 /trunk/ (15 files in 3 dirs):
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Revert (r15399): 'v->cargo_type' is also used in other places, which cannot accept CT_INVALID.
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Add Engine::GetDefaultCargoType() and Engine::CanCarryCargo() and use them.
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2617]: When articulated parts have no available default cargo, use the cargo type of the first part for livery selection.
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: To decide whether a vehicle is refittable do not test its current capacity for being zero, but always use the 'capacity property'.
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Note: The property is used unmodifed without calling CB 15/36. By setting it to a non-zero value and returning zero in the callback vehicles can be refitted to/from zero capacity for e.g. livery effects.
07:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Note: It is intentional that you cannot control refittability by CB 36.
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08:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15542 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Feature(ette): Support vehicle vars 0x47 and 0xF2 in purchase list.
08:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15543 /trunk/ (docs/openttd.6 src/openttd.cpp src/video/dedicated_v.cpp): -Change: allow the default debug level of 6 for a dedicated server to be overriden by -d (if used after -D).
08:29<Forked>hmm.. in the 0.7.0-beta1 .. on a 2k*2k map. is it normal that it makes 4+ oil rigs within the first year? (Startyear: 1975 with coast line on just one side of the map)
08:29<@Rubidium>sounds normal to me
08:29<Forked>okies :)
08:33<KenjiE20>oil rigs appeaer from the 70s onwards iirc, so yea, sounds fine to me
08:33<frosch123>hehe, number of industries created is proportional to map size. maybe water/land industries should be proportional to water/land mass. though at map with a big lake filled with oil rigs might also look weird :p
08:33<Forked>just that the last (but patched, so I tried with some fast forward here) had us with get oil rigs every 15 blocks
08:33<Forked>what a nice sentence, forked. you really borked it.
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08:36<Forked>frosch123: that would be nice :-)
08:37<@Rubidium>Forked: you could try disabling multiple industries per town
08:38<Forked>as well as the "close to each other". yep.. I thought I had, sorry
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08:52<Sacro>I was walking along the pavement and there was this sign that said, "Pavement ahead closed. Please use other side."
08:52<Sacro>It made me cross.
08:53<@Bjarni>Sacro was outside???
08:53<@Bjarni>did you carry your MacBook?
08:57<Elukka>are you sure you didnt get fresh air poisoning from too much exposure?
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08:59<@Bjarni>you know Oxygen can be quite dangerous
08:59<@Bjarni>too much of it can kill you
09:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15544 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix [FS#2650]: extracting downloaded content didn't work for Windows if one uses a non-ASCII.
09:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15545 /trunk/src/ship_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2653]: if a buoy was placed directly in front of a dock, that dock was seen as a buoy and thus skipped once within 3 tiles.
09:03<Sacro>Bjarni: no, i have it on a leash
09:08<@Bjarni>I once got an email regarding contaminated water.... It was contaminated with bacteria instead though :s
09:08<Prof_Frink>Dangerous stuff, that DHMO
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09:14<+glx>yes it can even destroy steel
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10:43<extspotter>I need some help (how do you set city names in OTTD from one of the GRF lists of placenames)
10:43<extspotter>and also can you set timetables in 24hr clock, rather than days
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10:45<frosch123>if you want to use a town-name grf you have to add it while in main menu, then you can select them in 'game options' and start a new game with them
10:46<Belugas_Gone>extspotter, i do hope you realize a day in openttd is around half a second... i wonder about the usefullness of your request...
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10:47<frosch123>Belugas_Gone: <- there are always mad people with mad patches
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10:50<extspotter>I only knew through the screenshot thread with the catalonia 24hr thing
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10:51<frosch123>it is no official feature, and I cannot remember having seen someone releasing that patch somewhere
10:52*Belugas_Gone vomits
10:53*welshdragon returns
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10:54<Roest>frosch123 i think i recently have read about a patch that introduces some global clock
10:54-!-goodger [] has joined #openttd
10:55<Roest>but it's still crazy
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11:30*welshdragon wonders if a dev will code his request?
11:31<FauxFaux>If only there was an issue tracker for these kind of things.
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11:34<Alberth>FauxFaux: we have one, it's called the Suggestions Forum :P
11:35<Belugas_Gone>like... oh bugger... a suggsetion :(
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11:38<Belugas_Gone>what was the suggestion. anyway?
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11:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15546 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2651]: keep_all_autosave ignored for dedicated servers/spectators.
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15547 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: Eliminate all == and != comparisons between v->cargo_cap and v->cargo.Count() to improve behaviour wrt. broken/incompatible grfs.
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11:49<db48x>that is a bit insane
11:51<db48x>could be fun though
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11:58<Ammler>is there a console command to change zoom level?
11:58<Belugas_Gone>what? where? when? how?
11:58<Ammler>(for dedicated server)
11:58<Belugas_Gone>not that i remember, Ammler
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11:59<Ammler>thanks Belugas_here.
12:00<jpm>I have a problem with ottd in Kubuntu
12:01<Belugas_Gone>i don't have a problem with ottd in ubuntu
12:01<jpm>When I start game from console some output is written but game window does not appear at all
12:01<jpm>dbg: [net] Map generation percentage complete: 95
12:01<jpm>dbg: [net] Map generated, starting game
12:01<Ammler>looks like it uses dedicated mode
12:01<Ammler>you might missing SDL
12:02<Ammler>install openttd over aptget or whatever kubuntu is using
12:02<Ammler>then it does install the missing libs.
12:03<@Belugas>was gonna say that :)
12:04<@Belugas>basically, you built it yourself didn't you?
12:04<jpm>I installed it now from apt-get but didn't help yet..
12:04<jpm>Yes, I build it myself
12:04<Ammler>then, you will still miss the devel-libs, I fear.
12:05<Ammler>@wiki compile
12:05<@Belugas>like on
12:06<jpm>I prefer ;)
12:06<Ammler>just read one of them :P
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12:07<jpm>Actually I tried to find help from one of them but I found only guides for win...
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12:10<@Belugas>ho... net... org of course :P sorry
12:11<@Belugas>that was what i needed for ubuntu ->
12:11<@Belugas>nuoon about kubuntu, but i guess it might be quite the same
12:11<@Belugas>-nuoon + dunno
12:12<Ammler>looks almost that easy as suse ;-)
12:12<Ammler>hmm, Gentoo looks the easiest.
12:13<KingJ>Gentoo easy?!
12:15<|Jeroen|>yeah gentoo is easy once installed
12:16<welshdragon>Belugas: speed restrictive signals (response to 16:38 post)
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12:19<Belugas_Gone>welshdragon: do not count on me for that. last time i playd with signals, i got quite a bit frustrated by the updating mechanism
12:19<welshdragon>Belugas_Gone: heh, ok
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12:25<Ammler>welshdragon: does not michi_cc have a "hack" for that
12:25<welshdragon>Ammler: i don't know
12:25<Ammler>something like yellow signal
12:25<welshdragon>also, i don't like kacks
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12:52<el_en>Voyager season 6 seems to have a plenty of well-written episodes.
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13:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15548 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix: incorrect error message when removing non-existing diagonal rail (TRACK_X/Y) with the single directional rail tool (i.e. not autorail).
13:13-!-mode/#openttd [+o Belugas_nomade] by Belugas
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13:17<smallfly>why are the trains in openttd faster on diagonal tracks than on straight ones?
13:18<db48x>diagonal bits are shorter, so perhaps they're not really any faster
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13:20<smallfly>the trains moves faster in pixels per second
13:22<frosch123>that is because trains are longer on those tracks
13:23<smallfly>the get "stretched" on the diagonal tracks ...
13:23<smallfly>the question is: why
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13:27<Ammler>smallfly: there is already a closed bugreport about.
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13:28<Ammler>that bug already exists since TTO
13:28<db48x>well, when they're on the straight tracks they're not in the same plane as the monitor
13:28<db48x>so really they're normal when they're on the diagonals, and squished by perspective (or really the isometric display) on the straight tracks
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13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r15549 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-02-21 18:48:25
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 5 changed by tucalipe (5)
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 7 changed by planetmaker (7)
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 changed by fanioz (4)
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 2 changed by darkttd (2)
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 fixed, 7 changed by Thor (8)
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13:53<Nath>Hey, can anybody help me set up a server please?
13:56<Eoin>i can attempt to :)
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause>db48x: the diagonal bits are (theoretically) 0.7 times the length of a normal track, but the game treats them as 0.5 length
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>so the trains get 0.7/0.5 times faster, i.e. +40%
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>where 0.7 is rounded for sqrt(2)/2
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14:24<smallfly>Eddi|zuHause, so cant "we" just adjust the speed on diagonal tracks?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>smallfly: well, there are more issues to it
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>the trains also get longer, and some newgrfs rely on that, if you just reduce the distance between wagons, it could cause glitches
14:25<smallfly>bummer ...
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14:27<smallfly>it doesnt seem to bother anybody. so it cant be such a wicked thing.
14:28<smallfly>other question, is there a website about openttd programming? the wiki is not very helpful
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14:31<smallfly>(it was a serious question)
14:31<smallfly>the first, not the ladder
14:31<smallfly>dd = tt
14:32<Wolf01>smallfly, try
14:33<smallfly>more helpful, thx
14:34<smallfly>but i thought of website, where i can find information how to develop openttd patches (which ide on which platform, how to compile, how to install all necessary libs, how the openttd source is build up generally (main structure, where to find what) etc.)
14:35<@Belugas_nomade>smallfly: honestly, there were very little people who reported the problem. So i'd say that it is not a very important "problem". I see it as part of the general parameters of TTD world. A bit like a fact of life ;)
14:35<Wolf01>in this case the wiki says all
14:36<@Belugas_nomade>smallfly: such a site does not exists. the only material you need is the sources, actually. otherwise, i mean... what would you like that site to have?
14:36<@Belugas_nomade>how to to this or that? already in the game, i'd guess ;)
14:37<Wolf01>I would like to have a web interface where I can check the features I want and the perl script made the right changes to the sources for me
14:37<Roest>why would a site for an opensource game project want to teach people about what ide to use
14:38<@Belugas_nomade>i'd like a program where i can get tons of cash coming on my credit card :D
14:38<@Belugas_nomade>ho.. wait... I can do that!!!
14:39<@Belugas_nomade>tru, Roest. IDE is really a personnal thing
14:39<smallfly>of course it is
14:39<@Belugas_nomade>it could be MSVC or even NotePad!
14:39<smallfly>but you have something other people do not have -> experience
14:40<@Belugas_nomade>which translates to... trying stuff!
14:40<Wolf01>I started with notepad, then notepad++, now I use notepad++, code::blocks and msvc80 :P
14:40<@Belugas_nomade>same in here, Wolfe01 :)
14:40<@Belugas_nomade>apart code::blocks...
14:41<smallfly>some people do not want to try all ides over weeks, if all they want to do, it compiling the source with a few changes
14:42<smallfly>but if you are to arrogant for this task, just let it be
14:42<@Belugas_nomade>what do you mean?
14:42<Roest>how do you think will you find out which ide you like the most if you don't try them?
14:43<Roest>you can ask here which one to use and you will get n-1 different answers
14:43<smallfly>you cant know which ide is the best for one person
14:43<Wolf01>or better, I started building programs in command line (old basic with line numbers) on the amstrad 464, then I switched to dos and qbasic, then I tried the zilog z80 assembler and now I'm too lazy also to write some lines in c++
14:43<smallfly>but, it doesnt have to be the best ide
14:43<@Belugas_nomade>smallfly: have you ever programmed before?
14:43<@Belugas_nomade>in which IDE?
14:44<smallfly>i program for about 10 years now
14:44<smallfly>in the beginning, basic, turbo pascal etc. then vba for office tools, then php, javascript etc, then c# and a bit c++
14:45<Wolf01>the z80 ide was the one I liked more... 12 buttons keypad and 4 7-seg displays :D
14:45<Roest>Wolf01 ED B0
14:46<smallfly>the only thing i cant understand: all you guys know a lot about c++ and openttd source. why not setting up a perfect guide for newbies how to change the ottd source
14:46<@Belugas_nomade>i did turbo pascal, clipper, business basix, delphi, php, and now C++.
14:46<smallfly>this way, more and more people would join the dev team => faster development
14:47<Wolf01>because to join the dev team you should pass a strict test
14:47<@Belugas_nomade>because we would not know where to start.
14:47<+glx>Wolf01: you had the one with tapes ???
14:47<@Belugas_nomade>apart from what is already there
14:47<smallfly>sorry, didnt mean the inner circle
14:47<Wolf01>glx, the amstrad? yes
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14:48<+glx>loading time were already long with floppies, I can't imagine with tapes
14:48<+glx>though I had a zx81 with tapes
14:48<Wolf01>and I have that green phosphorus monitor
14:49<smallfly>i mean a pdf with about 10 sites: first site: tools and how to install them on each platform; second site: how to setup the ide to make the "compile" button working 3. how the source is build up etc
14:49<+glx>the first C in CPC meant Colour :)
14:49<@Belugas_nomade>smallfly: such a page would be very long and very boring to write. plus, it has to be done regarding a few levels, from easiness to hardcore. would be a pain in tge butt
14:49<Wolf01>smallfly: chose an ide, then follow the guide on the wiki
14:49<+glx>smallfly: there's a wiki for that
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14:50<@Belugas_nomade>and the current wiki covers at oleast how to setup the environment you've chosen to work on
14:50<+glx>but I never done z80 on amstrad, only on TI-85
14:50<@Belugas_nomade>which is still a very personal thing
14:51*smallfly tries to download and setup all tools decribed in the wiki now
14:51<Wolf01>not ALL, just follow one guide
14:51<smallfly>of course
14:52<@Belugas_nomade>on which OS are you?
14:52<+glx>and be careful with DXSDK version if you choose MSVC
14:52<Roest>so you are programming for 10 years now, a multitude of languages and you don't know what ide to use yet?
14:52<smallfly>(i did compile openttd a year ago, i know the wiki explains a lot; but not every detail; and the details can make something not to work)
14:53<+glx>all important details are in the wiki
14:53<smallfly>c++ is not comparable to all the other languages i develop with
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14:54<@Belugas_nomade>and by the way, more people in the dev team does not mean necessarily better patching. most of the time, out of 10 patches, only one is kept and commited. So a guide for newbies would not help at all keeping that ratio as it is. in fact, it would even lower it
14:54<smallfly>c++ is much more intelligent than all other langs
14:54<Roest>we use to say, if you can code the language doesn't matter
14:54<el_en>smallfly is speaking the words of wisdom
14:55<+glx>right I can code in almost every language
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14:55<Wolf01>the most efficient and intelligent language is the one which does what you want, the best way and with the lowest effort
14:55<+glx>and it depends on the task :)
14:55<frosch123>yeah, squirrel and xml
14:55<smallfly>argh ... i didnt mean intelligent in this way
14:55<smallfly>i mean complicated
14:56<smallfly>c++ is more complicated than c#, php, java etc.
14:56<+glx>only if you use advanced features
14:56<smallfly>dont you think so?
14:56<+glx>for me they are all the same
14:56<smallfly>the pointer concepts, the nearness to hardware etc
14:56<+glx>you can code in c++ without using pointers
14:56<@Belugas_nomade>i do have the same concepts when working in DElphi
14:57<Roest>have you ever tried to fully utilize c# of java?
14:57<smallfly>delphi was not part of my list. didnt compare delphi
14:57<@Belugas_nomade>the only part that i find difficult in C++(and C) is the concept of strings
14:57<+tokai>nothing beats plain C :)
14:57<@Belugas_nomade>delphi and turbo pascal are almost the same
14:57<+tokai>C++ on the other hand is HUGE crap ;)
14:57<+glx>C++ is better than C reagarding strings :)
14:58<smallfly>i dont want to discuss which language is better; c++ is used for openttd and so its the language that should be explained
14:58<Roest>i miss programming z80 assembler by hexcode
14:58<+tokai>C is like comfortable readable Assembly :)
14:58<Wolf01>all languages have the same base: there are constructs and there are variables, you always use them in combination, what change between language is the syntax and the name of functions... maybe some languages are more object oriented and other doesn't know what objects are, but once you learn how to program things should come automatically
15:00<smallfly>2 years ago, i bought some book concerning c++ and wanted to program a simple game. the overhead needed to open a fu**ing window in windows is really complicated
15:00<smallfly>in c# i just say : form and tadah there it is
15:00<+glx>that's not c++, that's windows :)
15:00<smallfly>i know.
15:00<smallfly>the api, correct?
15:01<+glx>just use wxwidget and it gets easier :)
15:01*smallfly googles wxwidget
15:01<smallfly>is this used in the openttd source, too?
15:02<smallfly>is there a reason?
15:02<+glx>no need for it
15:02<@Belugas_nomade>we have our own,
15:02<@Belugas_nomade>based on the old system that was in place in the original game
15:02<+glx>and having "custom" look using wxwidgets is not that easy
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15:03<+glx>but for native look it's good
15:03<smallfly>if you say native look, you mean the windows menus, buttons etc.?
15:04<smallfly>they are not needed in a game like openttd
15:04<Roest>glx i used wxwidgets for my last project, i'm seriously considering going back to Qt now that it's gpl
15:05<smallfly>if i want to code a useful program with a windows own ide, i use c#; i want to use c++ for games only
15:05<smallfly>sorry not ide = gui
15:05<smallfly>(too much this night)
15:06<smallfly>(too much alcohol this night)
15:06<smallfly>i think i better stop writing now ;-)
15:07<@Belugas>i like that guy :D
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15:10<Prof_Frink>Belugas: You've gone insaner.
15:10<Prof_Frink>Just thought you'd like to know.
15:10<@Belugas>no... my cat danced on the keyboard :D
15:15<smallfly>is there anyone compiling ottd on windows? so which ide, do YOU prefer?
15:16<@Belugas>under windows, I DO prefer MSVC
15:16<@Belugas>under Linux, I do like the KDevelop system
15:17<@Belugas>so far
15:18<@Belugas>but since i'm not a CLI guy, i prefer totally integrated system
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15:19<@Belugas>although MSVC is too big for my laptop. THis is why i have Linux on it
15:19<@Belugas>my desktop is still on WIndows MSVC
15:19<smallfly>the wiki says # Microsoft® DirectX SDK - August 2007 or earlier (needed for DirectMusic, more later)
15:19<smallfly># Microsoft® DirectX SDK - November 2007 or later (current: November 2008)
15:19<db48x>emacs is the one true editor
15:19<@Belugas>for you db48x, for you...
15:19<smallfly>so which one to download? both??
15:19<db48x>Belugas: for all
15:19<+glx>smallfly: august 2007 is enough
15:20<frosch123>emacs is the one true editor of the 80s
15:20<db48x>Belugas: those who deny the beneficience of emacs merely haven't seen the light yet
15:20<@Belugas>you are an extremist who thinks the world should foolow you and only you, db48x
15:20<+glx>btw I use April 2007
15:20<smallfly>so why dont you delete the other sdk in the wiki?
15:20<smallfly>its confusing
15:20<db48x>actually, I just like bombast
15:20<+glx>I didn't write this page :)
15:21<db48x>that reminds me, has anyone tried my coastal cities patch?
15:22<db48x>I need independant confirmation that it doesn't cause the user's computer to burst into flame before it can be committed
15:22<smallfly>are there any restrictions for msvc++? i mean something like a spash screen "TRIAL SOFTWARE" that pops up in the software i compiled?
15:22<db48x>smallfly: yes, there are
15:23<db48x>smallfly: you'll have to read the EULA for the details, however
15:23<smallfly>non commercial. ok.
15:23<smallfly>no pron
15:23<smallfly>no prob
15:23<db48x>you can't summarize it like that
15:23<db48x>it depends entirely on which version you bought
15:23<smallfly>bought? the express edition is for free
15:23<db48x>for example, the EULA for the student license is different than the others
15:24<db48x>and the express edition has different requirements as well
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15:24<smallfly>is it possible to compile openttd with the express edition
15:24<smallfly>(why do you make everything so complicated)
15:24<db48x>the express edition doesn't include all of the same libraries, but it probably works
15:24<db48x>I didn't make it complicated, I'm pointing out that the complications exist
15:24<smallfly>so, i better use another ide
15:25<db48x>try it with the express edition
15:25<smallfly>i dont like complications, because of any fu**ing libs
15:25<db48x>OpenTTD doesn't use ATK as far as I know, so that problem won't hurt you
15:25<smallfly>i just want to have a working ide. is that so hard to manage?
15:25<db48x>on windows, sure
15:25<db48x>but you have the express edition, and it should work just fine
15:25<smallfly>but i cant crosscompile for mac?
15:25<db48x>not with msvc
15:26<smallfly>so, if i want to compile for mac AND windows. which one to use?
15:26<db48x>you need two compilers for that
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15:26<db48x>one for windows and one for mac
15:26<smallfly>ok. so i can start with msvc. later i get another compiler
15:26<db48x>Codeweavers or whatever it is called, from apple
15:27<frosch123>sorry to interrupt you, but has anyone ever managed to crosscompile for mac on windows?
15:28<db48x>frosch123: dunno. presumably it's _possible_ to do it with gcc
15:28<db48x>I don't know if anyone has ever undertaken to do so
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15:28<frosch123>even with gcc it is not possible, unless you are named TB
15:28<smallfly>so how does the ottd dev team compile for mac? manually??
15:28<db48x>especially since msvc is a better optimizing compiler than gcc
15:29<db48x>there are these funny things called Makefiles
15:29<smallfly>another thing i hate
15:29<frosch123>smallfly: <- second one
15:30<db48x>other than the fact that make differentiates between spaces and tabs as part of the Makefile syntax
15:30<smallfly>frosch123, read it
15:31<planetmaker>[21:28] <db48x> [21:26:59] Codeweavers or whatever it is called, from apple <-- just install xcode and you have all you want
15:31<@Belugas>smallfly, we useed to have a dev using mac. but the compile farm (under linux) is actually doing the cross-compile. don't aske me how :)
15:32<db48x>magic, presumably
15:32<planetmaker>Belugas: I think TB wrote an article on that somewhere... was fun reading :)
15:32<+glx><frosch123> sorry to interrupt you, but has anyone ever managed to crosscompile for mac on windows? <-- it's already very hard to do it on linux, so I don't want to try on windows
15:32<planetmaker>compiling the compiler himself and doing a bit of patching...
15:33<planetmaker>and tweaking the necessary libraries afair was the hardes bit.
15:35<@Belugas>ok... cannot do much more work for this poor customer. so this is the end of my presence online for now
15:35<@Belugas>bye bye
15:35<planetmaker>bye Belugas
15:36<@Belugas_nomade>bye planetmaker. bye glx bye frosch123 bye smallfly, bye all
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* next time you try something in text mode, make sure you have a text mode browser
16:00<KingJ>wget and pipe to cat, all you need ;)
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, now try to fill out a form and post the appropriate response with wget :p
16:01<KingJ>Oh ok then, cheat and use lynx
16:01<OsteHovel^EEE>Do the Rcon open a new connection to the server to send the command or do it use the already established connection?
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16:03<smallfly>msvc requires a registration.
16:03<smallfly>so which ide is the alternative?
16:03<OsteHovel^EEE>Kdevelop :p
16:03<smallfly>thats not running on win, is it?
16:03<+glx>smallfly: registration is free for express versions
16:03<Wolf01>it does only if you want product updates, newsletter etc
16:03<+glx>and not mandatory
16:04<db48x>GET and POST :)
16:04<rortom>also, hi all
16:04<smallfly>so i can use msvc still after 30 days without reg?
16:04<Wolf01>notepad with the right pluging is really effective, but then you must compile with mingw
16:04<rortom>Wolf01: you could call the MS compiler by hand ... ;)
16:05<rortom>also, there is codeblocks
16:05<Wolf01>but there isn't a project for code::blocks, at least not the last time I checked
16:05<smallfly>where can i download the ms compiler?
16:05<smallfly>i know its integrated in msvc
16:06<smallfly>but i dont want to registrate for that product
16:06<Wolf01>you don't need to register
16:06<smallfly>still after 30 days?
16:06<Wolf01>it's free for ever
16:06<planetmaker>if I don't want to register, suddenly a person called "Arno Nonymous" appears from nowhere
16:06<smallfly>i know its free
16:07<rortom>in the VS express thing you have to register
16:07<rortom>they introduced that with VS express 2008 IIRC
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16:07<smallfly>so i better download 2005?
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16:08<smallfly>forget the question.
16:09<smallfly>perhaps ill try to manage it with notepad++
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16:10<db48x>notepad++ doesn't compile things, it only edits text files
16:12<smallfly>i understood that
16:12<smallfly>ill use something like mingw to compile it
16:12<db48x>oh, ok
16:12<smallfly>db48x, but thanks
16:12<db48x>I'm multitasking, so I probably missed something
16:13<db48x>(equally ignoring several simultaneous tasks)
16:13<smallfly>i have a similiar editor called rapid php 2007
16:13<smallfly>but i think its optimized for c++
16:13<smallfly>argh ... i mean "i DONT think"
16:13<@petern>Rubidium: "a non-ASCII" what? :p
16:13<smallfly>"dont drink and write"
16:14<db48x>smallfly: heh
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16:20<smallfly>so which tools do i need to compile openttd? i have the editor, i have svn to obtain the sourcecode. i think i need to download the "openttd usefull package" and mingw . what else?
16:21<smallfly>what about "GNU Utils for Win32 (includes make) " especially?
16:21<Roest>dihedral you there?
16:23<+glx>openttd useful package is for msvc
16:23<planetmaker> <-- doesn't that cover all you need, smallfly ?
16:23<+glx>with mingw/msys you compile all dependencies yourself
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16:24<smallfly>i'm looking for the page, where i can find the differencies between cygwin, mingw, etc
16:24<Wolf01>the only problem with that is that sourceforge does not provide the pnglib 1.2.8, I tried many times and then I had to download it by hand and put it in the right folder in order to continue the procedure
16:25<db48x>the differences between cygwin and msys could fill a book
16:25<db48x>pick one or the other
16:26<Wolf01>I suggest msys
16:26<db48x>as do I
16:26<Wolf01>cygwin is more complex and will need that stupid cyg*.dll
16:27<smallfly>so the decision is clear
16:27<smallfly>ill take cygwin :D
16:27<Wolf01>each time I install a new software compiled with cygwin I had to remove manually every instance of that dll
16:27<smallfly>ok. mingw. thx
16:28<+glx>Wolf01: openttd is compiled with -mnocygwin IIRC
16:28<smallfly>aaaaahhhh ...
16:28<@Rubidium>glx: if it still compiles on cygwin that is ;)
16:28<+glx>the dll is required only for posix stuff
16:29<+glx>Rubidium: I don't trust users on forum ;)
16:29<rortom>#define UINT_8 unsigned __int8 D:
16:30<@Rubidium>true, but what is the last KNOWN correct cygwin compile?
16:30<Ammler>Yexo is a cygwin user, afaik.
16:30<Roest>i'm still not sure why you don't simply follow the guides on the wiki, it's almost impossible to explain it better and easier to understand
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16:31<@Rubidium>let me guess, please please: because the person is dyslexic and doesn't want to read the guide as that is difficult?
16:32-!-rortom [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:33*petern ponders an early night
16:34<smallfly>the guide explains how to setup mingw. i doesnt explain, why not use cygwin or vice versa
16:34<planetmaker>lol @ Rubidium :)
16:34<Roest>ok let me be blunt here, a person has to be mentally retarded in a serious way if he's unable to compile ottd with this guide
16:34<+glx>smallfly: why would it explain that ?
16:34<+glx>it's a matter of personnal preferences
16:34<@Rubidium>Roest: then many persons have a "retardation"
16:35<Ammler>does it matter, in which order the files are compiled?
16:35<@Rubidium>not really, except a few cases
16:35<+glx>but linking order matters for windows
16:35<Ammler>my cygwin test used a strange order
16:35<@Rubidium>like strgen.cpp before anything that includes lang/strings.h ;)
16:36<Ammler>well, I guess, that will be handled from Makefile?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause><smallfly> the guide explains how to setup mingw. i doesnt explain, why not use cygwin or vice versa <- ask 3 people and you get 5 different answers
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>that is exactly why it does not even try to explain.
16:38<Roest>eddi that's cheating, ask n people and you'll get n-1 answers
16:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15550 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp unmovable_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#2654]: bogus secondary error message when dynamiting industries/unmoveables; "X is in the way" isn't helpful at all in that case.
16:39<Ammler>has minigw also a tool to get package very easy, like cygwin?
16:39<@Rubidium>same way why the mingw guide doesn't explain why not to use OSX
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16:42<smallfly>you guys should remember for which people these guides are written for: not for those who are interested in the disputes between hardware programmers (my compiler is faster than yours, my compiler kicks your compilers ass ...) those newbies just want to know ONE compiler, that WORKS. noting more.
16:42<smallfly>hardware programmers = hardcore programmers
16:42<Roest>and it does exactly that
16:42<+glx>Ammler: download the source, extract, configure && make && make install
16:42<+glx>that's the only way
16:43<Ammler>glx: sounds like windows :-(
16:43<Roest>it has links on what to download, screenshots which settings to make and tells which buttons to press
16:43<Roest>it can't get easier than this
16:43<Ammler>glx: I like to use "zypper in <pack>" ;-)
16:43<smallfly>but it lets the user alone with the question, which tools to use
16:44*Rubidium wonders what compiler reliably always works
16:44<smallfly>the dev team should just delete either mingw or cygwin
16:44<+glx>every body is free to use his prefered tool
16:44<+glx>I use MSVC and mingw/msys
16:44<smallfly>how should a newbie know, which one is better?
16:44<Ammler>try both and you will
16:45<+glx>ask google (won't help to decide though)
16:45<frosch123>why does there always have to existist something 'better'...
16:45<Roest>maybe that newbie would better download a binary and come back to compiling the source once he has at least some basic knowledge
16:45<+glx>but the easier to install is msvc
16:45<Ammler>frosch123: that is the human being... or how is that called.
16:46<Roest>ok this one will decide it for you
16:46<@Rubidium>tralalalala... the easiest to install was buildottd
16:46<smallfly>imagine this case: a normal gamer (not a programmer) want to change one parameter in ottd and recompile it. nothing more. how long should it take to manage that? 10 minutes!! not longer
16:47<Ammler>didn't work anymore here.
16:47<@Rubidium>if only this magical someone or that magical somebody did fix it
16:47<Roest>@seen someone
16:47<@DorpsGek>Roest: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 4 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 55 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
16:47<Roest>too bad he's gone
16:48<+glx>but buildottd is still the better mingw/msys installer for openttd :)
16:48<frosch123>Roest: does the googlefight tell you which is more popular, or which one is more troublesome?
16:48<+glx>it just misses the latest optionnal dependencies (like icu)
16:48<Wolf01>I'm too tired this night...
16:48<Wolf01>'night everybody
16:48-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:48<Roest>frosch123 interesting question
16:49<planetmaker>[22:44] <smallfly> how should a newbie know, which one is better? <--- what is better: coffee or tea?
16:49<planetmaker>Can there be an answer?
16:49<Ammler>cygwin install failed here
16:49<Ammler>something with fontcache.cpp
16:49<@Rubidium>planetmaker: neither?
16:50<smallfly>planetmaker, your case is not comparable
16:50<planetmaker>Rubidium: possibly yes :)
16:50<planetmaker>smallfly: it's a perfectly fitting analogy IMO
16:50<smallfly>planetmaker, no.
16:50<@Belugas_nomade>i hate tea taste
16:50<planetmaker>the world is bigger than just "there's only one way"
16:50<@Belugas_nomade>i like coffee taste
16:50<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: Tea, of course.
16:50<@Belugas_nomade>both wakes me up
16:51<+glx>Ammler: you give too little details
16:51<planetmaker>I prefer one at a time, but both at their time :)
16:51<@Belugas_nomade>both at the same time would be... interesting
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16:51<smallfly>planetmaker, comparable would be: how do i fuck to girls? first girl A than girl B or vice versa
16:51<smallfly>to = two
16:51<@Belugas_nomade>let's fuck CATS!
16:52<smallfly>you would write a wiki: you can fuck A than B or vice versa
16:52<Prof_Frink>Belugas_nomade: #tycoon is that way <--
16:52<smallfly>i would propose the user: fuck A, than B.
16:53<smallfly>he will get happy with this order
16:53*Roest grabs the RAID
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16:57<Nath>Hello, could anybody help me get a nightly server online please? As none of them work =(
16:58<Ammler>glx: didn0t thing, you might be interested:
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16:58<@Rubidium>oh dihedral, your autonightly hasn't automatically updated
16:59<Ammler>his server is somehow broken
16:59<@Rubidium>Ammler: looks like libfreetype is 'broken'
16:59<+glx>Ammler: ft2build.h: No such file or directory
16:59<+glx>fix freetype :)
16:59<@Rubidium>broken as in: the cflags that freetype-config gives are wrong
16:59<Ammler>but isn't freetype optional?
17:00<Ammler>or is that something else?
17:00<@Rubidium>Ammler: yes, but it's available at configure stage
17:00<@Rubidium>and freetype-config is broken
17:00<+glx>maybe our detection method is incorrect
17:01<@Rubidium>Ammler: what does freetype-config in cygwin give you?
17:01<Ammler>I made today a fresh install of cygwin
17:01<Ammler>like the wiki told
17:02<@Rubidium>Ammler: does freetype-config in cygwin give you an error that it doesn't exist?
17:02<Ammler>Rubidium: the usage-msg
17:02<+glx>seems we detect only if freetype-config is present
17:02<@Rubidium>glx: existance of freetype-config should be enough (IMO)
17:02<Ammler>I installed it
17:02<@Rubidium>Ammler: what does freetype-config --cflags give you?
17:03<@Rubidium>--cflags gives the version?
17:04<Nath>Does this mean a nightly server will be up soon =X?
17:04<+glx>and headers are there?
17:04<Ammler>Nath: not dihs
17:05<Nath>Ammler: dihs ?? (Sorry, newb here ^^)
17:05<Ammler>I installed libfreetype-devel
17:05<Ammler>Nath: there are always nightly servers up
17:05<@Rubidium>Ammler: sounds like libfreetype-devel is broken then
17:06<@Rubidium>Ammler: did you follow the wiki to the letter?
17:06<Ammler>quite, yes.
17:06<Ammler>I at least installed every pack
17:07<Ammler>also the optional
17:07<Nath>Ammler: For me there are 2, one is passworded, the other gives me "Game failed to load" error and the people i play with get the same error.
17:07<+glx>Nath: using r15549?
17:08<@Rubidium>Ammler: looking at the wiki page about cygwin you didn't follow it to the letter
17:08<Nath>glx: yep
17:08<@Rubidium>Ammler: and I'm especially talking about point number twelve
17:08<Ammler>just reading
17:09<+glx>hehe cygwin freetype is "broken"
17:09<Ammler>hmm, don't i have symlinks in cygwin?
17:09<Nath>scrap that, there is only the passworded server online now :( lol
17:09<@Rubidium>does Windows provide symlinks? if not, then no
17:09<+glx>or the compiler, because it should find headers in /usr/include without porblems
17:10<Ammler>Nath: google for the servername
17:10<Prof_Frink>Last time I played with it, cygwin treated .lnk files as symlinks
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17:10<Ammler>you might then find a homepage with access infos
17:14<Nath>Ammler: found nothing for the passworded one, and the dehidral's website hasnt had a message on there since the 2nd feb
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17:15<Ammler>Nath: try older revs then :-)
17:16<Ammler>(i.e r15495)
17:16<Ammler>or 0.7 betas
17:18<Ammler>Rubidium: glx, seems to work now, thanks.
17:18<Ammler>and sorry :-$
17:18<+glx>anyway it's weird it doesn't find it in /usr/include
17:19<KenjiE20>nath; are you refering to 'BuF's nightly' for the passworded one?
17:20<+glx>there's only one nightly server
17:21<Ammler>glx: how do you call yesterday nightly?
17:21<+glx>yesterday nightly is broken :)
17:21<+glx>nobody can join
17:21<Roest>may i play a nightly on the afternoon?
17:21<Ammler>well, days before :P
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17:22<@Rubidium>I'd call them ancient
17:22<Ammler>(or nights)
17:22<+glx>dihedral: your AutoNightly fail to update ;)
17:23<frosch123>at least rename it to ManualNightly
17:23<@Rubidium>glx: 22:58
17:24<Ammler>not only the nightly server ;-)
17:24<Ammler>other services too, but not all :-)
17:25<Ammler>I guess, the libpng issue is known and still there.
17:26<+glx>Ammler: read the FAQ on the same wiki page
17:26<Ammler>glx: well, that is why I asked.
17:26<Nath>KenjiE20: yes
17:26<Ammler>(to inform you, it isn't fixed ;-)
17:26<KenjiE20>that'd be mine :P
17:27<+glx>as libpng is quite old it's not surprising :)
17:27<Nath>KenjiE20: Well at least someone knows how to keep a server online :P
17:27<KenjiE20>heh, I update manually
17:28<+glx>hmm no zlib is quite old, libpng is updated more often (but I don't know if cygwin updates it)
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17:30<@Rubidium>1.2.12 seems to be their latest
17:31<@Rubidium>libpng only reached 1.2.34
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17:38<planetmaker>he, yeah. But it still compiles and works... :)
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>cygwin sucks (imho)
17:40<+glx>I can't install cygwin (it breaks my mingw/msys install)
17:40<Ammler>glx: that might be the reason, my bottd install failed :-)
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17:41<Ammler>windows on a vm is damn slow.
17:42<el_en>your vm is damn slow then.
17:42<Nath>Yeah, Windows 7 runs pretty smoothly for me :P
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>how are vms going on processors with virtualisation?
17:43<+glx>Nath: in a VM?
17:43<KenjiE20>win7 under vmware was suprisingly smooth for me
17:43<KenjiE20>but then it had a full core and 1gb of ram to play with
17:44<+glx>well XP runs smoothly in vmware for me too
17:44<Ammler>I might give it too less resources.
17:44<el_en>Ammler: VMware or something else?
17:45<@Rubidium>one always give Windows too few resources ;)
17:45<Ammler>192 MB
17:45<Ammler>might be a bit low :-D
17:46<Nath>glx: VM Ware
17:46-!-DaleStan [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:46<@Rubidium>200 MB's more than enough for Windows XP playing simsig
17:46<+glx>384 is recommended ;)
17:46<Ammler>oh, still error
17:47<Ammler>now in squirrel
17:47<Nath>Anybody know where I can find a working link to google's OS? (Space edition)
17:47<@Rubidium>at google?
17:48<@Rubidium>the one in Mountain View, CA that is
17:49<Nath>Rubidium: They are all corrupted, every single mirror too lmao
17:49<+glx>Ammler: ok unicode is broken in cygwin it seems
17:50<+glx>configure --disable-unicode
17:50<+glx>and retry
17:50<@Rubidium>Nath: if it isn't at google, then it's very unlikely that it still exists anywhere
17:50<Ammler>needs a complete recompile I fear :-)
17:50<+glx>but if you can compile the non unicode build, I'll look at fixing squirrel ;)
17:50<TinoDidriksen>Cygwin unicode works fine if your environment is set up for it.
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>(sorry, really bad joke :p)
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17:51<planetmaker>hehe @ Eddi|zuHause. Do you think non-Germans will get it?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if dutch is close enough to german for that one to work ;)
17:52<el_en>i get it!
17:52<Ammler>oh, now
17:53<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: in your bath tub?
17:53<Ammler>I thought, your line belongs to TinoDidriksen
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>el_en: i won't believe you unless you have proof
17:53<Ammler>TinoDidriksen: how do I setup it right?
17:53<el_en>Eddi|zuHause: el tiburone
17:53-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
17:54<el_en>actually tiburón. quite close.
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>close enough, i presume ;)
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>"tiburone" appears to be portuguese
17:54<el_en>maybe i was thinking about the plural.
17:55<TinoDidriksen>Was talking in general...what unicode library is OTTD using? My projects use ICU, which works fine under Cygwin. Haven't tried other libs, but never had issues with any unicode tools...
17:55<el_en>and deriving the wrong singular from that.
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17:56<@Rubidium>TinoDidriksen: things like wprintf are part of the C99 standard; not some external library
17:56<el_en>Eddi|zuHause: btw, strangely enough, Hai in finnish happens to be hai.
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>the full joke goes like this: "Treffen sich zwei Taucher, sagt der eine: 'Hi!', sagt der andere: 'Wo?!'"
17:57<TinoDidriksen>Ah, well, probably install GCC 4+ to use those then. Cygwin standard GCC is 3.x as I recall, but it has GCC-4 packages if selected.
17:57<Ammler>I check...
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17:58<Felicitus>good morning
17:58<Nathan321>Wouldnt call it morning here m8y :P
17:59<Felicitus>well it's actually midnight
17:59<+glx>even in your TZ ;)
17:59-!-Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
17:59<Felicitus>but i call it morning relative to the time i woke up ;)
17:59<TinoDidriksen>And wprintf() sucks for proper Unicode handling. The standard is lacking so much...ICU is a huge step up in handling various codepages, locales, etc.
17:59<Nite_Owl>Hello all
18:00<+glx>TinoDidriksen: we use ICU for some stuff, but squirrel is not our code :)
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18:01<Nathan321>Finally :P
18:02<Ammler>Nathan321: @port
18:03<@DorpsGek>Nathan321: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
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18:08<dihedral>[00:08] <glx> [23:22:58] dihedral: your AutoNightly fail to update ;) <- heppens when the compile farm is not done when i do my check :-P
18:09<dihedral>[00:08] <frosch123> [23:23:29] at least rename it to ManualNightly <- it is not manual!
18:09<+glx>when do you check?
18:09<@Rubidium>but... the last CF run was done earlier than the one that is now running on your server
18:09<dihedral>glx, 20.40 CET
18:10<+glx>[20:37:46] <@DorpsGek> CompileFarm: nightly (r15549) completed.
18:10*dihedral checks
18:11<smallfly>question: i try to install mingw, but the following error occurs (Extracting gcc-g++-3.4.5-20060117-3.tar.gz
18:11<smallfly>untgz::extract -d 'C:\development\MinGW' -z 'C:\development\mingw_install\gcc-g++-3.4.5-20060117-3.tar.gz'
18:11<smallfly>tgz_extract: bad header checksum
18:11<smallfly>Error: Failure reading from tarball.
18:11<+glx>corrupted or incomplete download
18:12<smallfly>i tried it three times
18:12<dihedral>server issue
18:12<dihedral>too many processes running on a limited vps
18:12<smallfly>not a layer-8 problem, dihedral?
18:12<dihedral>smallfly, tell me where that'd be layer 8
18:13<+glx>smallfly: or maybe it's the tool you use to extract
18:13<dihedral>unless you want to play it on me (who is not the only one with root access) mangling with the setup of the server
18:13<Ammler>smallfly: use BOTTD
18:13<smallfly>BOTTD functions again?
18:13<dihedral>(and i am refering to why JJ quit and why my server did not upgrade)
18:13<dihedral>smallfly, nope
18:13<Ammler>well, it is a nice mingw installer, if you haven't cygwin like me :-)
18:15<Ammler>glx: without unicode, it doesn't work
18:15<Ammler>do you like to see the errors?
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18:16<Felicitus>hmm - is it possible to retrieve if a train is dual headed using the AI API before the train is built?
18:18<+glx>Felicitus: seems not
18:18<Ammler>oh, it was the old
18:18<Ammler>you need to requery
18:19<+glx>grr it doesn''t want to get the new one
18:20<dihedral>AutoNightly back up :-)
18:20<TinoDidriksen>That's without unicode? It's still asking for wide functions.
18:20<+glx>it's in gcc
18:22*glx declares cygwin broken :)
18:22<TinoDidriksen>Out of curiosity, why not use VC++ Express if you're compiling for Windows anyways?
18:22<Ammler>how to tell to use gcc4?
18:23<Ammler>TinoDidriksen: I am just playing
18:23<TinoDidriksen>export CC=/usr/bin/gcc-4 CXX=/usr/bin/g++-4
18:23<Ammler>I will rather give up then using VC++
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18:25<Ammler>TinoDidriksen: that will work with openttd?
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18:26<TinoDidriksen>Dunno, worth a try...I don't generally compile it for Windows.
18:27<Ammler>at least ./configure outputs tells so
18:27<Roest>hmm with 700+ vehicles fast forward isn't so fast anymore
18:27<Ammler>but then, I don't need to disable unicode, right?
18:27<TinoDidriksen>That is the hope.
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18:29<Ammler>I'll give up
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18:30<Ammler>g++-4: The -mno-cygwin flag has been removed; use a mingw-targeted cross-compile
18:30<TinoDid>Ah, lovely...
18:30<@Rubidium>so we're better of removing all cygwin support
18:31<Ammler>I am not the cygwin pro ;-)
18:31<Ammler>you should ask Yexo about.
18:31<Ammler>he tested my autostart script with it.
18:32<Ammler>but at time without squirrel)
18:33<Ammler>seems like no unistaller for.
18:34<Ammler>just deleting c://cygwin should do the job?
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18:36<@Rubidium>rm -rf ~/.VirtualBox on the host also works
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18:50<smallfly>the cygwin vs. mingw question should be answered now ;-=
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18:51<Ammler>Rubidium: indeed, I could trash the vdisk
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18:52<Ammler>I should have a snapshot of a clean win install
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19:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15551 /trunk/src/depot.cpp: -Fix [FS#2656]: [NoAI] crash when setting a depot order to the southern part of a ship depot
19:30<@Rubidium>palindrome time ;)
19:31<smeding>that's about as far as i go
19:32<@Rubidium>"baas neem een racecar neem een saab"
19:32<+glx>nice one
19:32<smeding>heh that one's nice
19:32<+glx>hard to to in another language
19:32<@Rubidium> ;)
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19:34<Sacro>able was i ere i saw elba
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21:11<db48x>this Altamir guy must be slightly insane
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21:18<db48x>I guess no one can say that realism is _always_ a bad thing
21:22<@Rubidium>should we know that guy?
21:22<@Belugas_nomade>nope indeed
21:22<@Belugas_nomade>a real girl is always a good thing
21:22<@Belugas_nomade>compared to a virtual one
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21:25<Nite_Owl>he just likes to play that way
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21:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15552 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix (r15544): some compiler/OS combinations don't like closing the same FD twice and zlib's docs weren't very clear about whether it would close a FD it didn't open.
22:01<Felicitu1>insane? insane is if you try to put like 10 different database servers on a 1ghz box with 512 mb ram :)
22:01<@Rubidium>nah, that ain't insane
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22:02<+glx>depends on the query amount
22:02<Felicitu1>good point
22:02<Felicitu1>query amount = 0 at the moment
22:02<Felicitu1>basically a test box
22:02<Felicitu1>but i'm not sure if i start the tests, how the tests will perform
22:02*Rubidium looks at a random MySQL server
22:02<Felicitu1>might be hard to tell at the end
22:02<@Rubidium>uses only 27 MB of memory
22:03<@Rubidium>and PostgreSQL seems to be using roughly the same amount
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22:04<Felicitu1>yes, but oracle is a littlebit more hungry
22:04<db48x>I don't suppose you guys have seen my car keys?
22:05<@Rubidium>they're in the ignition
22:05<@Rubidium>or whatever it's called
22:05<Felicitu1>SELECT location FROM keys WHERE owner='db48x';
22:05<db48x>that's what I need
22:05<db48x>I checked the car/ignition
22:06<Nite_Owl>do you have pets
22:06<Felicitu1>you'd just have to write an interface where it automatically updates the location of your keys in the database ;)
22:06<@Rubidium>Felicitu1: but Oracle's installer probably won't even start on that machine
22:06<+glx>db48x: usually they are where you left them ;)
22:06<Felicitu1>Rubidium: it's a gentoo box, so i had to install it manually
22:06<Nite_Owl>have you eaten anything recently
22:07<db48x>yes, but the aluminum content was quite low
22:07<Felicitu1>but it works, for now. db2, oracle, sybase, firebird, mysql, postgresql so far
22:07<Felicitu1>still missing sapdb and interbase
22:08<db48x>Felicitu1: why, exactly?
22:08<db48x>compatibility testing?
22:09<@Rubidium>SQL is like HTML and SQL servers are like webbrowsers; it all looks similar, but nothing complex works correctly in all
22:09<Nite_Owl>did what you ate comer from the pantry or from the fridge
22:09<db48x>the fridge
22:09<db48x>freezer, to be precise
22:09<@Rubidium>Felicitu1: no dbase?
22:09<db48x>Rubidium: very true
22:09<Nite_Owl>check the freezer for your keys
22:10<Felicitu1>Rubidium: do they have a "free" edition?
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22:10<db48x>alas, nothing
22:11<@Rubidium>no clue; I used to work with version 4, but apparantly the latest version is 2.something
22:11<Felicitu1>db48x: development purposes. i have to make sure that my ORM adapter works correctly on all these databases
22:11*db48x nods
22:11<Nite_Owl>did you check your pants pockets
22:11<@Rubidium>but then, dbase probably doesn't do sql
22:12<Felicitu1>i dont know, never worked with that
22:12<Nite_Owl>or coat pockets
22:13<Felicitu1>Rubidium: is dbase widely used in companies?
22:14<db48x>I did
22:15<@Rubidium>it has been the best selling DB for a few years
22:16<Felicitu1>hmm i wonder if it has a client/server architecture, german wikipedia only tells alot about the desktop stuff
22:16<Nite_Owl>then a room by room grid search is the only other option
22:16<@Rubidium>Felicitu1: you shouldn't forget MSSQL though
22:17<+glx>good luck ;)
22:17<Felicitu1>yes, but that doesn't run on a gentoo box ;)
22:17<db48x>sure it will
22:17<Felicitu1>db48x: how?
22:17<@Rubidium>e.g. virtualbox
22:17<db48x>you can cram an virtual machine on there I'm sure
22:18<@Rubidium>though mono and/or wine might do the job too
22:18<Felicitu1>well, erm....yes, but not on that box with that amount of memory
22:18<Felicitu1>i rather install the express edition on my desktop and use that for testing
22:18<@Rubidium>a windows VM works fine with only 200 MB
22:19<Felicitu1>maybe later
22:20<Felicitu1>now it's time to continue work on the ai
22:21<@Rubidium>for added fun you should install a non-Western Windows, like Korean ;)
22:22<db48x>oh yes
22:22<@Rubidium>provides nice test cases for your application w.r.t. support for non-ASCII paths ;)
22:22<db48x>many new and exciting bugs will come crawling out of the woodwork
22:24<Felicitu1>i know, i experienced alot of odd things, especially when converting an old webserver to a new one - default charset was changed to UTF-8. took quite alot of time WHERE the wrong conversion is
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22:41<db48x>mmm, character set/encoding conversions
22:44<db48x>text is always so deceptively simple
22:45<Felicitu1>but inbetween the app and the database are quite a few conversions
22:46<db48x>there shouldn't be
22:47<Felicitu1>if configured correctly, yes. but the app author assumed iso-8859-1, php was configured for using utf-8 and assuming the database was iso-8859-1, but the database was utf-8 :)
22:47<db48x>the database should hold text data on the same format your program deals with it
22:47<db48x>and the program should always deal with unicode
22:47<Felicitu1>yes - but that programmer didnt set anything and relied that the system administor (aka me) set the defaults correctly :(
22:48<db48x>and for most programs, that unicode should be encoded in utf-8 or perhaps utf-16 if you have to deal with the windows api much
22:48<Felicitu1>if it was windows, i'd be happy
22:48<Felicitu1>but php coders always do ugly bulls* :)
22:49<db48x>ah, yes. I've worked on php projects before
22:49<Felicitu1>me too, and i still do it
22:50<db48x>I don't think I ever will again
22:50<Felicitu1>that's why there's now a need for a good ORM adapter
22:51<db48x>have you ever used common lisp?
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22:51<db48x>databases can be so easy. in common lisp the macros that you use to define a class can be overridden to both define the class and also the sql table that instances of that class will be stored in
22:52<Felicitu1>no, never used that
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22:53<db48x>of course, there are half a dozen different (and incompatible) implementations of that
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22:55<Felicitu1>well actually i need a complete solution, where application server and persistence server are seperated, are scalable if required, or can be built embedded
22:59<db48x>everyone needs all of that :)
22:59<Felicitu1>yes, so why isnt there such a solution :)
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23:00<db48x>usually when I'm developing an app (especially in CL) I start with an SQLite database, and only later change the logic for opening/closing the database so that it uses a "real" server
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23:00<db48x>other than that, there are no other changes
23:00<Felicitu1>almost every project i've been working on had these problems, because the management decided "oh we dont need multiple database support", "oh we dont need scalability, our app is performant enough to run on a single server" in the first place
23:03<Felicitu1>do you know the cms contenido?
23:05<db48x>no, I don't
23:05<Felicitu1>hmm, well, i used to be one of the main developers from 2003-2006
23:06<Felicitu1>in the beginning, my task was only to extend the system, but lateron they decided to use contenido for every kind of application, related to web applications
23:06<Felicitu1>of course, the system wasn't prepared for that and each and every extension was quite a big mess
23:07<Felicitu1>so what i basically want to develop is a system for applications which are scalable from the beginning on, without requiring the developer to take special care of it
23:08<db48x>heard of Erlang?
23:08<db48x>it's a programming language that forces you (sorta) to develop in an easily parralellizable style
23:09<db48x>so your test machine will be a single computer, but the live install might be a hundred machines, and the code is no different
23:09<Felicitu1>well, the system must be implemented in a common language, so the apps also run virtually everywhere
23:09<db48x>each subsection of your program is developed as an independant process, with no ability to share state or memory with any other process except via message passing
23:10<db48x>yea, you have to install a runtime
23:10<db48x>but it's open source, so it's not too bad
23:10<db48x>a large program might have 80,000 of these lightweight processes running at once, on a single machine
23:10<db48x>or on a dozen
23:10<db48x>or on a hundred
23:11<Felicitu1>i'm not sure what the overall layout will look like, but using PHP as programming language for the actual application implementation seems to be the only way. persistence server and application server itself can be implemented in another language
23:11<Felicitu1>its a littlebit like an SAP system, where the applications itself are written in ABAP
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 22 00:00:54 2009