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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-03-18

---Logopened Wed Mar 18 00:00:23 2009
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01:21<emjay88>afternoon :P
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01:28<emjay88>anyone know how to set palettes in GIMP?
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01:49<Rubidium>colours->map->set colourmap?
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01:54<emjay88>ahh thanks
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02:32<@petern>several of them
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04:26<Timitry>Hehe, our friend Alain encountered a new problem, again
04:26<Timitry>I'm still surprised how far he gets with his approach...
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04:36<dih>ban ^^
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04:56<Timitry>Man... I can't get the 32bpp-graphics to work...
04:57<Timitry>1. Downloaded graphics and put them somewhere in my /data - folder, e.g. the NoZoom-Megapack and the new Traindepot
04:57<Timitry>2. In the config, i added blitter = "32bpp-simple"
04:57<Timitry>3. And tried changing sprite_cache_size to 64
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05:00<Timitry>Well, in fact, i added blitter = 32bpp_simple, but the game changed it to blitter = "32bpp-simple"
05:01<Timitry>Both under [misc], using a clean r15595 and no NewGRFs
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05:13<@petern>do you have dos or windows original graphics?
05:13<@petern>(although i don't know if that matters any more)
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05:33<HerzogDeXtEr>Discussion of realism is now a quietable offence :D
05:34<HerzogDeXtEr>openttd and realism, i hate ppl that need realism in games ;)
05:37<Timitry>Got the windows-graphics, both the original and the opengfx ones
05:37<Timitry>The Game uses the Original ones...
05:38<Timitry>I tried deleting my openttd.cfg, and then changing the blitter in the new one again... No effect
05:38<Rubidium>Timitry: try selecting the opengfx one in e.g. the game options
05:39<Rubidium>in the main menu
05:39<Timitry>I copied the 32bpp-files in both my games/openttd/data and the userdata/openttd/data folder
05:39<Timitry>Rubidium: Changing them works, but still no 32bpp-graphics are shown
05:39<@petern>files? it's only one file
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05:42<Timitry>okay, my bad...
05:42<Timitry>like you already guessed anyway :D
05:43<@petern>Rubidium, are you aware of any plans for supporting multiple (hahaha) 32bpp base replacement sets?
05:43<@petern>for individual newgrfs it's simple, of course
05:43<@petern>well, fairly
05:43<Rubidium>no, and should I?
05:44<Rubidium>let there first be one ;)
05:44<@petern>just asking a simple question... no need to read anything more into it :p
05:45<Rubidium>or more like half
05:47<@petern>i've done 9 sprites so far ;)
05:48<Rubidium>so only 499 promille to go till you've reached half of the sprites ;)
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06:26<Timitry> Just curious... Was my advice at least a little bit right? :)
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06:32*dih will not engage
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06:53<Rubidium>Timitry: by the looks of it it wasn't
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07:54<dihedral>@seen energetic
07:54<@DorpsGek>dihedral: energetic was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 14 hours, 35 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <energetic> in openttd code, does performance has prio over readability?
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08:16<Mark>Will path based signals be in 0.7.*?
08:21<dihedral>they already are
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08:33<@petern>last minute removal!
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08:36<dihedral>hehe ^^
08:37<Mark>dihedral: Okay. :)
08:37<dihedral>by the way
08:38<Timitry>How do i checkout the 07.rc1
08:38<dihedral>why were the "'setting' change to <new value>" console print outs removed
08:38<dihedral>it's been gone for a long time
08:38<Mark>I'm only using a nightly and hav'nt tried 0.7.* yet, therefore the question. :)
08:38<dihedral>svn co svn:// i'd assume
08:39<Timitry>okay, will try that, thanks
08:39<dihedral>svn co svn://
08:39<dihedral>Mark, which nightly are you using?
08:43<Mark>Oh, kindaä old
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09:28<Aygar>Hey, are there any developers here?
09:29<Aygar>I have question about where a patch would be welcomed.
09:29<Aygar>*where -> whether
09:30<Rubidium>no, there're no developers in Japan ;)
09:30<pavel1269>see if ppl like it .... FS?
09:30<Rubidium>there was one a year ago though ;)
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09:31<Rubidium>mostly people with ops or voice here are the developers
09:31<@Belugas>pr maybe you meant pretty please?
09:32<Aygar>Its a patch that adds NOR pre- and combo- signals.
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09:32<dihedral>lol Belugas
09:33<dihedral>yet another bunch of signals
09:33<Aygar>I looked in the forumns but couldn't find if there was any views one way or another about adding signals
09:33<Rubidium>NOR = red when all exit signals are green?
09:34<dihedral>makes sense.....?
09:34<[wito]>dihedral: sure it does
09:34<Aygar>Red when train in block or any exit signal is green
09:34<Aygar>Green only when all exit signals are red
09:35<Aygar>and no train in block
09:35<dihedral>means you need to mangle with other signal type
09:35<[wito]>so used for load balancing then?
09:35<Aygar>yes, mostly
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09:36<Aygar>example would be the compressor structure for opentddcoop PSG 131
09:36-!-Tim [] has quit []
09:36<Aali>and now that you've mentioned ottdcoop, there's no chance in hell for this to happen
09:37<Aygar>but using signals instead of trains in external rail loops
09:37<Aygar>Ah, I see
09:38<Rubidium>guess you rather want programmable signals
09:38<Aygar>That would be the ideal solution. How ever looking at the code it would take major revisions to make that happen
09:39<Rubidium>better do it right the first time then ending up with 20 signals types and 1 programmable signal type that covers 15 of those signal types
09:40<Aygar>At most you would end up with 6 additional signals. AND NAND NOR.
09:40<Aygar>pre-signal and combo-signal variants
09:41<Rubidium>then you think of NOT
09:41<Rubidium>and XOR
09:41<Rubidium>and NXOR
09:41<Aygar>thats a NOR with only one input
09:42<Aali>what about the infinite loop issue?
09:42<[wito]>With programmable signals, you could probably build a turing machine in OpenTTD
09:42<Aygar>Really from a logic point of view you only need a NOR or a NAND
09:42<Noldo>[wito]: there are quite interesting structures already
09:42<Rubidium>ssh... ottdcoop's computers are fast enough to cope with infinite loops
09:43<Aygar>Aali: thats refered to as an ocilator. Its a feature not a bug.
09:44<Rubidium>"not ok"
09:44<Aali>have you tested this patch of yours?
09:44<dihedral>Rubidium, hehe :-P
09:44<Aygar>Some what
09:45<Rubidium>has anyone with knowledge of the signalling system reviewed your patch?
09:45<Aali>you'll see that the infinite loop I'm talking about isn't quite what you would want, ever
09:45<dihedral>Rubidium, nope, he came here for that ;-)
09:46<dihedral>first time he's here, first time he's talking to 'a' dev
09:46<Timitry>Is there a way to save all the warnings MinGW/MSys gives me while compiling to a .txt file or something like that?
09:46<Rubidium>Timitry: >
09:46<Aygar>mainly I am testing the waters to see what the reception for something like it would be before investing large amounts of time in it only to have it shot down with 'we don't accept patches of that sort'
09:47<Timitry>> warning.txt ?
09:47<Forked>Rubidium: just warnings/errors is "2>" isn't it?
09:47<+glx>2> indeed
09:47<+glx>better is > log 2>&1
09:47<Noldo>bug fixes are the way to go if you want your name on the svn log
09:47<[wito]>Aygar: a patch doesn't need to go in trunk to be successful
09:48<Timitry>So, do i need that command to the make command, or to ./configure, or can i do it afterwards=?
09:48<[wito]>personally I loves me my cargodest
09:48<[wito]>but that's not in trunk (yet [pokes Rubidium])
09:48<Rubidium>and the lower flyspray id of the bug you fix, the higher the chances you become a developer ;)
09:48<+glx>Timitry: make >log 2>&1
09:48<+glx>(don't use -j when you redirect output ;) )
09:48<Timitry>just that, or do i need to specify the name of the output file?
09:49<+glx>log is the filename
09:49<Aygar>Aali: I was trying (failing) to make a joke. So would an example be a NOR signal that loops back on to another NOR signal?
09:49<Rubidium>looping back on itself is more interesting
09:50<Rubidium>what colour will it be?
09:51<Aygar>good question
09:51<[wito]>It's a paradox
09:52<[wito]>But any signal looping back on itself is an error, and should be permanently red, irrespective of it's internal mechanisms
09:52<[wito]>two NOR signals looping on each other is much more interesting
09:53<Aygar>Rubidium: it would be the colour of problem.
09:54<Timitry>"make >log 2>&1" doesn't do anything, the log just tells me "nothing to be done here"
09:55<Aygar>I now see what Aali is referring to
09:55<Timitry>ah no, sorry
09:55<Timitry>Seems like it does work :)
09:56<Aygar>So back to the programming wall with me.
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10:14<Timitry>the css validator on the mainpage does not validate the page...
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10:17<[wito]>Timitry: how do you figure?
10:17<[wito]>looks valid enough to me
10:18<Timitry>bottom of the page, and click the css-valid logo
10:19<[wito]>one error is due to validation against the wrong profile (it should be validated against 3, not 2.1)
10:20<[wito]>the other is a browser-specific declaration which is still syntactically valid and can be ignored safely.
10:22<Timitry>Yes, i read the errors that were found, it's just that i think if you place the valid-logo there, the validation shouldn't fail
10:23<[wito]>Then you don't understand how CSS works
10:24<[wito]>That CSS file is, for all intents and purposes perfectly valid
10:25<[wito]>It's not a valid CSS 2.1 file, but that claim isn't made in the first place
10:25<[wito]>it just happens to be the default profile
10:26-!-Sacro [~ben@static-87-102-39-137.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
10:26<[wito]>Sacro: you're going bankrupt, man!
10:27<Sacro>grr, can people stop using brackets
10:27<Sacro>How much do I have?
10:28<[wito]>Sacro: good clients will allow you to type wi\t
10:28<[wito]>and you'll get me
10:28<[wito]>1,1M£, and hemmhoraging at 600k£/year
10:29<[wito]>you'll be bankrupt by the end of next year unless drastic action is taken
10:30<[wito]>Immediate action. :P
10:34<Sacro>what year is it?
10:35<[wito]>but since it's gone this far
10:35<[wito]>let it run to 2100
10:39<Sacro>I need to send Brianetta an ssh cert again
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10:42<[wito]>I do take objection at a difficulty setting, tho'
10:42<[wito]>Trains reversing at stations? What is this madness?
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10:43<Sacro>use signals to stop them
10:44<[wito]>well, the issue is that if I build a station with a terminal depot, the train never visits it
10:47<Noldo>your building is faulty then for that given set of settings
10:48<[wito]>or rather
10:48<[wito]>there are subtleties
10:48<[wito]>in this particular situation, breakdowns are also disabled
10:48<[wito]>so trains never actually NEED to visit the depot in the first place
10:49<[wito]>So the issue isn't really that trains don't get serviced (they don't need to), it's that they aren't autorenewed
10:49<[wito]>leading to annoying messages. :P
10:51<Sacro>tell them them to viist the depot if they need to
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11:09<el_en>¿dónde está el señor Eddi|enCasa?
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11:15<el_en>English only
11:16<@petern>did you know
11:16<@petern>the sun
11:16<@petern>smells too loud
11:17<dihedral>petern, you forgot the /me in front of that :-D
11:20<@petern>it's all about /you isn't it?
11:20<@Belugas>dihedral, Head Down
11:20*dihedral ducks
11:21<@petern>thank you space expert
11:21<@Belugas>You Know what You Are?
11:22<@petern>i'm jim morrison, i'm dead
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11:22<@Belugas>perfect cross reference, petern :D
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11:27<@petern>who blew up the content server? heh
11:29<@Belugas>the answer my friend
11:29<@Belugas>is blowing in the wind
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11:36<Rubidium>petern: lighty
11:38<Rubidium>it was consuming a mere 630 MB of memory
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11:39<dihedral>heh - openttd used to do that to me a few weeks ago
11:39<Rubidium>dihedral: virtual memory != real memory
11:39<Rubidium>I'm talking about 630 MB of real memory
11:40<Rubidium>i.e. that part of the ps aux that kept below 100 MB, not the part that grew to several GB
11:40<dihedral>oh - nice ^^
11:40<dihedral>odly enough - on the vps openttd ran for me, that made no diff
11:40<dihedral>free gave the output as if it were real mem
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12:08<pavel1269>i know
12:09<Rubidium>I don't
12:09<pavel1269>i hope so :-)
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12:33<Cutter>new eletric engines appear but the eletric rails aren't even available!
12:33<Cutter>I'm playing in the desert
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12:38<el_en>how do you get power for your computer in the desert?
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12:40<+glx>there are no electric engines in tropical/desert landscape
12:42<pavel1269>maybye with grf?
12:42<pavel1269>and cutter, dont you have elrails off?
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12:53<Cutter>pavel1269: don't know but I did't turn them off
12:54<pavel1269>well, if u have it off, you should be able to buid them in normal depo ^^
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12:55<Rubidium>monorail/maglev trains are electric too
12:55<pavel1269>but you cant ingame turn them off :-)
12:56<Rubidium>pavel1269: huh?
12:57<Rubidium>Cutter: what is the name of the new electric engines and when did they appear?
12:57<pavel1269>hmm hmm .... nvm me
12:58<Cutter>Rubidium: yes but I've seen at least two news about a new eletric engine, and I have only one monorail engine available atm
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12:58<Cutter>and I didn't catch ther name
12:59<Belgabor>hi everybody, would someone know where (in the code) I can find at which zoom level small views (eg of the train ui) are drawn?
13:01<Rubidium>Belgabor: I'd say the constructor of the vehicle gui
13:03<Belgabor>ah ok, was this recently introcduced? Sowething between rev 15600-something and now seems to have change in this regard, as the extra soom level patch is clearly not working correctly there =)
13:03<Belgabor>*changed *zoom
13:04<Rubidium>I reckon your patch failed to apply or compilation failed and you're now using an old binary
13:04<Belgabor>strange. The patch applied pretty much cleanly but now everything small (including the news reports) is drawn at max soom
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13:08*Rubidium ponders how long it takes until people start reporting desyncs when they've got the copy-paste patch applied
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13:14<Belgabor>Since I neither have that patch applied nor play multiplayer, it certainly won't be me ;-)
13:16<Belgabor>Ok, you were right. Dependency/stale object file issue. Sorry for the noise.
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13:25<@Belugas>there was a dvd-cd player on that new machine
13:25<@Belugas>but it did not had power supply plugged in
13:26<@Belugas>how fucking usefull is that...
13:26<Rubidium>apparantly a dvd player is cheaper than a front for the slot
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13:27<Rubidium>(and that really doesn't suprise me)
13:29<@Belugas>at work, nothing shouls surprise me anymore...
13:30<frosch123>-Feature: Block downloading BaNaNaS stuff for one day, when the user tries to download everything
13:33<@Belugas>Download The Internet
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13:43<pavel1269>Rubidium: i was talking just about situations i saw there, you are talking about stuff in bigger picture, which was totaly right there ... :-)
13:44<Rubidium>I still don't get your reply though
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13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r15761 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files):
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-03-18 17:44:55
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 10 fixed by tifached (10)
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 fixed by adjayanto (4)
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: japanese - 60 fixed by ickoonite (60)
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 5 fixed by silentKnight (5)
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 4 fixed by Smoky555 (4)
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13:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r15762 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: inlined utf8 chars are not handled properly on eastern version of windows so escape them
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14:17<pavel1269>if i just add global variable to src/saveload/misc_sl.cpp.... after load, is it loaded? ...
14:21<@Belugas>yes, no, it depends
14:22<@Belugas>simply declaring a variable on that file will not make it a loadable-savable one
14:25<pavel1269>ehh ... its declared in date.cpp :-)
14:26<pavel1269>and ... added that SLEG_
14:26<pavel1269>*added relevant
14:30<Yexo>why don't you just try whether it works?
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14:35*Belugas agrees with Yexo
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14:35<@Darkvater>gah, some idiot pulled the plug on my server :s
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14:38*Darkvater waves at Belugas
14:39<@Belugas>how a-propos :D
14:39*Belugas waves back in a great big splash!
14:39*Darkvater ponders an Intel X25-M SSD disc
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14:40<Prof_Frink>It's not really a disc, is it?
14:40<@Darkvater>drive then
14:40<@Darkvater>too bad it's ~300 EUR for a measily 80GB's
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14:43<@Belugas>what use you'll have for it? just curious
14:44<@Darkvater>my HD is soooo slow it makes me mad
14:44<@Darkvater>even after defag
14:45*Darkvater will ponder a bit more in peace :)
14:45<@petern>get 24 of them
14:45<@petern>in a raid
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14:50<Prof_Frink>Redundant Array of Rather Expensive Dis^H^Hrives
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15:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r15763 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange/Fix: Add Engine::GetDisplayDefaultCapacity() and use it everywhere, so CB 36 is also used everywhere.
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15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15764 /branches/0.7/src/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Number of houses in house variables 0x44, 0x60 and 0x61 were incorrect after 0xFF had been reached and could desync clients joining afterwards (r15755)
15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when clicking the small area between the savegame list and the save button in the save game window [FS#2742] (r15753)
15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not try to (un)draw the cursor when the screen is not ready (r15752)
15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: The big UFO sometimes landed just outside the map. Instead of landing, just disappear (fly away) in those cases (r15750)
15:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash because submarines would sometimes start far outside of the map [FS#2739] (r15748)
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15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15765 /branches/0.7/src/ (14 files in 3 dirs):
15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: [NewGRF] Expose GRF ID of engines in var action property 0x25 (r15739)
15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Add Engine::GetDisplayDefaultCapacity() and use it everywhere, so CB 36 is also used everywhere (r15763)
15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] Inlined UTF-8 characters (in the source code) are not handled properly on Eastern versions of Windows so escape them (r15762)
15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] On some system searching a font using its English name fails. So now we search the font using the localised name and use the English name for the final 'validation' only (r15757)
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16:11<Aali>has the "multiple downloads" BaNaNaS bug been fixed?
16:12<Rubidium>what bug?
16:12<Aali>(the one where you click the download button multiple times and it keeps spawning windows and overall messes up?)
16:13<Rubidium>has it been reported?
16:13<Aali>dunno, thats why I asked
16:13<@Belugas>why wold you keep on clicking that button?
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16:13<@SmatZ>[21:11:16] <Aali> has the "multiple downloads" BaNaNaS bug been fixed? <== everyone knows about that bug, apart from devs apparently :-p
16:14<Aali>someone on ottdcoop found it, in r15712
16:14<pavel1269>and this says dev :-P
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16:18<@Belugas>[16:16] <pavel1269> and this says dev :-P <-- ho yeah?
16:18<@Belugas>since when?
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16:22<+glx><Aali> someone on ottdcoop found it, in r15712 <-- they used to report bugs but not this one
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16:26<@Belugas>maybe it's not reproductible?
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16:40<energetic2>@seen TrueBrain
16:40<@DorpsGek>energetic2: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 22 hours, 13 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> valhallasw: good luck with your RoboCom
16:46<colde>where does openttd save screenshots on 64 bit vista?
16:50<@Belugas>i have no idea
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16:50<@Belugas>can you search for it?
16:50<@Belugas>when you have done the screenshot, the system always tell you the name of it
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16:51<Rubidium>the same place where it saves openttd.cfg
16:51<Rubidium>which is likely "my documents\openttd"
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17:00<colde>Rubidium: i'll look there thx
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17:05<Brianetta>Anybody have an idea why my server doesn't un-pause when players join?
17:09<@SmatZ>Brianetta: what's the value of min_active_clients ?
17:10<Brianetta>although now it's 1
17:10<@SmatZ>maybe is the server paused then?
17:10<Brianetta>as of a few seconds ago
17:10<Brianetta>It's paused from the start
17:11<Brianetta>as if "pause_on_new_game" or whatever was anything other than OFF
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18:07<Nite_Owl>Hello all
18:07<Ammler>Brianetta: I had a similar behavior here, server didn't unpause after someone left
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20:30<emjay88>hi all
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20:36<Ammler>Good night #openttd
20:40<emjay88>How is everything?
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20:56<Rubidium>I'd say it's quiet
20:58<emjay88>I think I'd agree
20:59<emjay88>What have you been up to, OpenTTD wise?
21:02<Rubidium>reproducing fancy bugs/fixing bugs
21:02<emjay88>sounds like fun :P
21:05<Rubidium>yeah, especially when it turns out that the only way to reproduce the bug is installing a Windows in a foreign language (Chinese/Korean), removing! the fonts to display those languages, rebooting and then reinstalling them
21:05<Rubidium>and then rebooting again
21:05<Rubidium>and only then you can reproduce the bug
21:06<emjay88>isn't that a fairly obscure bug?
21:06<emjay88>like "I pulled out a RAM module while playing and now it doesn't work"
21:07<Rubidium>actually upgrading Windows might cause the same behaviour as fonts get replaced
21:07<Sacro>emjay88: we've had s/RAM/sound\ card.
21:08<Rubidium>still, if you're removing the font that OpenTTD autodetected and you do not reboot before starting OpenTTD you'll get three errors and possibly lots of question marks
21:09<Rubidium>and then there some Windows installs (again of Asian origin) that randomly use localised and english names for fonts which messes up things quite thoroughly too
21:09<emjay88>Rubidium: aren't fonts stored in the GRFs? I seem to remember some dicussion in the Graphics Replacement dev thread...
21:09<+glx>yeah it was fun :)
21:09<Rubidium>should I continue about Windows and font handling?
21:09<emjay88>Sacro: O_o
21:09<+glx>even more when clean trunk fails to compile on these windows
21:10<Rubidium>emjay88: nobody has made a GRF with CJK characters
21:10<emjay88>good point
21:10<+glx>would be a very big project
21:11<Rubidium>nah... Japanese only has 1800 official characters
21:11<+glx>@calc 1800 * 3
21:11<@DorpsGek>glx: 5400
21:11<Rubidium>(the rest gets just 'borrowed' from Chinese and isn't often used in official government documentation)
21:12<Rubidium>oh the 1800 is only the Kanji; so there like 100 Hiraganas + Katakanas too
21:13<Rubidium>which is slightly more than the two dozen or so Cyrillic or Greek characters
21:13<Rubidium>and then there's the world of Arabic languages which is even more fun
21:14<[wito]>Rubidium: 1945
21:14<Rubidium>as different 'letters' combine differently meaning they need to be drawn differently
21:15*glx still waits for a font with all unicode ranges
21:15<Rubidium>there'll never be one
21:15<Rubidium>as I doubt there's any useful filling for the private area
21:15<+glx>arial unicode contains already a lot
21:16<[wito]>Rubidium: Sci-Fi channel could probably supply a lot of things to fill it with
21:17<goodger>glx: dejavu sans has most
21:17<[wito]>(unicode block 88: Goa'ould :P)
21:19<[wito]>the number of kanji in use in japan is about 10030; tho' very many of those only appear in a single place name or surname
21:19<[wito]>or only a handful
21:20<[wito]>a few of them are in fact so rare that noone knows how to pronounce them or what they mean
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21:20<[wito]>but I digress
21:20<[wito]>good night
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23:58<emjay88>man, I really want to help the graphics replacement stuff but I'm just not a good artist :S
23:59<emjay88>(or coder)
23:59<emjay88>*sad face*
---Logclosed Thu Mar 19 00:00:28 2009