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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-03-20

---Logopened Fri Mar 20 00:00:30 2009
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00:49*eMjay88 wonders if his boss will notice openTTD in a semitransparent window...
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02:47<dihedral>Rubidium, for the MinActiveClients.... that is an interesting fix.... would never have thought of something like that :-P
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03:07<dihedral>if i start the client from the console, and want to 'force quit' it with strg+c, the game prompts me to confirm!!
03:07<dihedral>in the window
03:08<dihedral>if someone presses strg+c on the console, i am pretty sure they want to quit the app, and if they dont they should jolly well get used to that being the outcome of the key combination
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05:15*petern ponders vservering mailman
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05:22*DASPRiD pokes dih in the rips
05:23<dihedral>whats that?
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05:24<el_en>are you sure you want to even know?
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05:33<@TrueBrain>petern: how about removing mailman? It sucks :p
05:33<@TrueBrain>(annoying memory eating beast)
05:35<@petern>how about no?
05:37<@TrueBrain>I still wonder if there isn't a better alternative ...
05:39<@petern>mailman doesn't eat memory for me
05:39<@TrueBrain>10 MiB per instance, it spawns 10 instances
05:39<@TrueBrain>100 MiB for .. what exactly?!
05:39<@petern>not here
05:40<@TrueBrain>then I wonder what is wrong with this install :p
05:40<@petern>it's "only" 60MB here :p
05:40<@TrueBrain>still a damn lot for just a mailman :p
05:40<@TrueBrain>I have this new httpd running, which uses JUST 4 MiB
05:40<@TrueBrain>OpenTTD uses more :p
05:41<@petern>On a machine that otherwise only handles mail relaying, and has 2GB RAM. I'm not particularly worried.
05:41<|Japa|>Format c:/
05:41<@TrueBrain>fair enough petern ;)
05:41<|Japa|>always solves problems
05:42<@petern>lighty is 1.7MB on it :)
05:42<Prof_Frink>del * /F /S /Q
05:42<@petern>it's only a 32bit machine of course, heh
05:43<@TrueBrain>petern: ours is 'slightly' more busy ;)
05:43<@petern>well, lighty is only on there for mailman's web interface
05:43<@petern>i do not mix services on servers :)
05:43<@TrueBrain>very smart :)
05:44<@petern>i see so many problems with LAMP servers :(
05:44<@TrueBrain>for good reason
05:45<@petern>and people trying to run incoming email with mysql lookups and outgoing email with mysql authentication etc all on one box...
05:45<@petern>someone DoSes a php/mysql website and everything stops as the mail server can't do mysql lookups :D
05:45<@TrueBrain>although all services of are in one VPS too (minus compile-farm, minus WT2, minus tournament stuff :p)
05:46<@petern>but that's very specific
05:46<@TrueBrain>yup :)
05:46<@petern>it's not offering services to 3rd parties...
05:46<dihedral>hello there TrueBrain :-)
05:46<@petern>and it's most vcs software
05:46<@TrueBrain>I dislike solutions like Plesk and people putting 3000 customers on one box
05:47<@petern>mixing all services together, definitely not
05:48<@petern>but 3000 users on a dedicated pop3/imap server is no problem
05:48<@TrueBrain>I meant the mixing together ;)
05:48<@petern>i know
05:48<@TrueBrain>I had to work with cyrus the other day ... what a crappy annoying idiotic software
05:48<@petern>i just moved to it :p
05:49<@petern>because i like it
05:49<@TrueBrain>it has its own storage
05:49<@TrueBrain>own user management
05:49<@TrueBrain>I guess it works if you set it up like that :p
05:49<@TrueBrain>we needed to implement it over existing MTA and user-database ..
05:49<@petern>it doesn't have user management
05:49<@petern>it has mailboxes and sasl authentication
05:49<@TrueBrain>that is what I mean of course :p
05:49<@petern>i migrated from ancient uw-imap with system accounts
05:50<@TrueBrain>now that is nasty ;)
05:50<@petern>cyrus has its custom bis
05:50<@petern>but the actual email storage is just one file per email
05:50<@petern>a bit like, er, maildir...
05:50<@TrueBrain>I dislike that I need to pipe mail incoming via Postfix via lmtp to cyrus ...
05:50<el_en>why not use the finnish alternative, dovecot.
05:50<@petern>so if your cyrus really goes tits up, it's not all lost.
05:50<@TrueBrain>el_en: guess what runs
05:51<@petern>i liked splitting services
05:51<@petern>so i don't have postfix running on the cyrus machines
05:51<@TrueBrain>the problem I had here: cyrus goes down for what reason what so ever
05:51<@TrueBrain>postfix still accepts the mail
05:51<@petern>delivery via network lmtp
05:51<@TrueBrain>and there is no way to ever get that mail in cyrus again without resending :p
05:51<@petern>cyrus goes down
05:51<@TrueBrain>(well, I guess postfix can be reconfigured to block in that case)
05:52<@petern>postfix accepts mail, postfix can't deliver to cyrus, postfix queues
05:52<@TrueBrain>the latter doesn't happen out-of-the-box
05:52<@petern>if it doesn't do that, you've done something wrong
05:52<@TrueBrain>it delivers to its own mbox stuff
05:52<@TrueBrain>debian postfox / cyrus install guide
05:52<@TrueBrain>but yeah, I am sure it is fixable .. just a bit weird ;)
05:53<@petern>i've never had an occurance of postfix picking a different delivery method just because one was down
05:53<@petern>it doesn't do it out of the box :)
05:53<@TrueBrain>I promise you, if you follow that 'official' guide, it does :)
05:53<@TrueBrain>took me a while to find the error .....
05:53<@petern>(actually postfix is on the cyrus machine, because cyrus can send out emails via sieve)
05:53<@petern>but it doesn't accept mails
05:53<dihedral>write our own ^^
05:54<@TrueBrain>anyway, I like courier-imap and dovecot (latter for small, first for bigger)
05:54<@petern>i use dovecot on my own personal server
05:54*dihedral prefers cyrus
05:54<@petern>because i couldn't be bothered setting up cyrus for it, heh
05:54<@TrueBrain> has 28 subdomains ... and I need to make a configure change in all of them .. hmm .. nasty :p
05:54<@petern>squirrelmail + avelsieve = <3
05:55<@petern>apparently there's a sieve plugin for thunderbird, but it needs an account registered to download it
05:55<@petern>which is lame
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06:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15776 /trunk/Doxyfile: -Fix [DoxyGen]: Our project is called OpenTTD, not openttd (which looks very ugly)
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06:10*dihedral wonders what the executable is called
06:12<dihedral>why .exe??
06:12<dihedral>that is soooo ugly ^^
06:12<@petern>cos it's an executable silly!
06:12*|Japa| wants somebody to slave at TE for a while
06:12<|Japa|>somebody meaning not me :P
06:12<@petern>i'd rather somebody started from scratch :p
06:12<Prof_Frink>I want a pony.
06:13*TrueBrain buys a pony for Prof_Frink
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06:13<@petern>pony car? ford mustang?
06:15<@petern>they're a bit steep
06:15<@petern>'65 mustang, £51000
06:16<Prof_Frink>And it's still american.
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06:17<@petern>it is
06:18<Prof_Frink>I'd rather have something from Norfolk.
06:18<@petern>a lotus?
06:19<Prof_Frink>What else is there in norfolk?
06:20<@petern>"leading edge" apparently
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06:32<JapaMala>I wannt a tesla roadster
06:32<Noldo>how much does it cost?
06:35<JapaMala>about 100,000 $ USD
06:37<JapaMala>last I checked anyways
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06:57<@TrueBrain>dear all .. we just switched to a new httpd at (cherokee instead of lighttpd)
06:57<@TrueBrain>I did my best to port the configuration 1-on-1
06:57<@TrueBrain>but please let me know anything that doens't work
07:03<@TrueBrain>most noticable change: urls changed (but old urls are nicely redirected)
07:09<welshdragon>TrueBrain: was browsing the wiki, seemed no issues
07:15<@TrueBrain>welshdragon: try it now again ;) Now the links are set correctly :)
07:15<dihedral>congratulations on learning how to browse the wiki ^^
07:15<dihedral>TrueBrain, nicely done ;-)
07:17<@TrueBrain>cherokee 'mmap's to files it is static serving
07:17<@TrueBrain>nice :)
07:19<welshdragon>dihedral: thanks... i think
07:20<welshdragon>anyway, is there a cargodest + infrastructure sharing build yet?
07:22<dihedral>yep! publicly available? dont no!
07:23<dihedral>*know ^^
07:25<Ammler>indeed, nice wiki urls now.
07:25<@petern>DNSBLs really work
07:25<Ammler>welshdragon: aali has such builds uploaded, afaik
07:26<welshdragon>Ammler: ok... any ideas where to look?
07:26<Ammler>on the "old" is thread or cargodest
07:27<welshdragon>hmm, i\m using the new is
07:28<Ammler>oh, there is no patch for that, but if you ask aali, he might make you one... :-)
07:29<Ammler>I bet, he has already, just not published ;-)
07:31<welshdragon>ok, thanks
07:36<@petern>one day, one day
07:37<welshdragon>one day they will be in trunk
07:37<@petern>one day they'll be written cleanly
07:37<@petern>i'm being dumb
07:37<@petern>i want to select a few records and update a flag for each
07:38<@petern>with the minimum of sql
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07:41<@Rubidium>update X in Y limit 0, 5; ?
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07:59<Ammler>petern: no hurry, we need some "exclusive" feature for wwottdgd ;-)
08:01<@Rubidium>Ammler: add copy-paste to all binaries
08:01<@Rubidium>don't forget to add it to the server binary though
08:04<Ammler>well, you need c&p patch for disabling it :-)
08:05<Ammler>that was the reason we added it to last wwottdgd pack
08:05<@Rubidium>if you review the diff you can at least find two ways to desync people who are using it
08:06<Ammler>oh, nice idea, I would like to add that to the coop ps :-)
08:06<Ammler>I am quite sure, nobody is using there there...
08:07<@Rubidium>there's nobody on there so I can't check whether joined people have that patch
08:09<Ammler>oh, you could do that also from a client?
08:09<@Rubidium>yup, one is client based and that can only kick people using the patch that join
08:10<@Rubidium>the other is server based and desyncs everyone with the patch who joins
08:11<@Rubidium>and the client based one requires you to have a modified client. Using the copy-paste patch is the easiest way to sufficiently modify the binary so you can cause the desyncs
08:15<@Rubidium>Ammler: the openttdcoop (blog) page is showing wrong information
08:15<Ammler>Rubidium: about?
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08:16<@Rubidium>wrong link to the nightly; nightly.php doesn't exist; better link to
08:16<@Rubidium>furthermore according to the site 11 people are connected to the public server though and my client say that there are only 0 connected
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08:17<Ammler>there are some troubles with Brians server, so he disabled all crontabs
08:18-!-George3 is now known as George
08:22<Ammler>hmm, those links seems to be in the templates...
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08:26*TrueBrain likes Cherokee, this new httpd .. works smoothly! :)
08:27<Ammler>Rubidium: fixed, thanks for report :-)
08:27<Ammler>we use all irc commands, so nobody realized that yet. :-)
08:30<@TrueBrain>did you know, that 55% of our visitors uses FireFox? :)
08:30<@TrueBrain>even a few use Firefox 8.10 :p
08:30<@Rubidium>yes I did
08:30<@petern>silly ubuntu
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08:34<Ammler>does opera still identify as Internet Explorer?
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08:39<@Darkvater>if you want toyes
08:43<@TrueBrain>oeh, noes, a Darkvater
08:43<@Darkvater>where? where?!
08:44<@TrueBrain>BEHIND YOU!
08:44*Darkvater tries to say something as a huge axe strikes him from behind sending his head spinning off
08:45<@TrueBrain>twisted mind you have my friend ..
08:45<@Rubidium>more a bodyless mind
08:46<@Darkvater>./mode -head Darkvater
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09:02<dihedral>can we consider people joining with the default nick (Player) a bug....
09:02<dihedral>and fix a bug that exists in (and all versions before) 0.7.0-RC1? :-P
09:05<Ammler>adding a client name generator like the town name :-)
09:07<Ammler>username from system?
09:07<@Darkvater>Ammler: lol
09:07<@Darkvater>so now e'll have a zillion players named Administrator instead of Player
09:08<@Darkvater>that helps ..
09:08<@Rubidium>so you're saying I should change my nick?
09:08<@Rubidium>(and login name)
09:08<Ammler>well, I assume, the problem is how to handle "empty" client name.
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09:09<dihedral>Ammler, or forbid certain client names from ever joining the server ^^
09:09<@Darkvater>yeah, let's call them Guests instead of Player
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09:10<dihedral>[badnicks] section in the config :-D
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09:10<Ammler>dihedral: it is more friendly to ask "Players" to rename then just ban them, imo.
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09:10*player votes for adding dih and dihedral
09:11<dihedral>Rubidium, try joining my server with the default nick ;-)
09:11<dihedral>Ammler, i never said ban
09:11<dihedral>they can get an error or a prompt or something ^^
09:11<Ammler>which they get on your nightly, iirc.
09:12<dihedral>they get a move to specs, a message and a kick 5 seconds after that
09:12<Ammler>wow, 5 secs is short to rename :-)
09:13<Ammler>specially for a newbie, which most of the "players" are...
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09:13<Ammler>but moving to specs is a nice idea.
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09:13<Gekz>It would be helpful if you clicked multiplayer and it popped up in the middle of the screen with a name box
09:13<@Darkvater>5 seconds?
09:14<Gekz>for the first one
09:14<Gekz>first time*
09:14<Ammler>Gekz: or just if cleint_name is empty.
09:14<@Belugas>toum te doum
09:14<Gekz>that's what I mean to say
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09:15<Ammler>bim bala bim
09:15<dihedral>Ammler: they dont need to rename in 5 seconds, they just need to read the message ;-)
09:16<dihedral>and if they dont rename themselves, servers still have the client_name command :-D
09:16*dihedral likes that one
09:16<@Darkvater>the if client-name empty() is a good suggestion
09:16<dihedral>Darkvater, in that case the server will set it to Player
09:17<@Darkvater>although I have never seen that in a game
09:17<dihedral>and that is the default value on the clients also
09:17<@Darkvater>you always get a default name before joining
09:17<@Darkvater>so the real value of he suggestion hovers somewhere around ~0 for me
09:17<dihedral>yes, but on some games you can specify that they are not allowed in the game ^^
09:18<Ammler>Darkvater: many games ask you for creating a "profile" the first time...
09:18<dihedral> <- Darkvater
09:18<Ammler>specially if you join servers with...
09:19<Ammler>dihedral: and to which name do you rename then?
09:20<Ammler>well, at coop, we could use the irc nick
09:20<dihedral>i just rename if i dont like their nick (i.e. if it's something offensive)
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09:21<Ammler>ah, so it is a manual task
09:21<dihedral>and then i try to automate that with ap+ ^^
09:21<Ammler>he :-)
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09:30<JapaMala>you could have it take the current username as default, and have everybody named administrator :P
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09:33<eQualizer>Can anyone suggest a good NoAI?
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09:38<Ammler>Japa, not everybody is using windows, and the windows I use does also support "user mode".
09:39<dihedral>so - then name them root ^^
09:39<@Rubidium>Ammler: Windows NT (at least 2000+) supports multiple desktops yet noone seems to be using it
09:39<Ammler>he, would be funny, to see someone joining as root :-)
09:40<+glx>Ammler: but we forgot to implement the backdoor
09:40<dihedral>Ammler, seen it happen with irc clients
09:41<Ammler>well, I have to admit, that I don't use user Administrator on windows, but I always add teh user to the admin group ;-)
09:42<dihedral>Ammler: talking of irc clients, have you ever taken a look at xchat?
09:42<Ammler>hmm, on GNOME times, yes :-)
09:42<+glx>Ammler: everybody do that
09:42<Ammler>XeryusTC: is using it...
09:43<welshdragon>dihedral: i use that when i'm on my pc
09:43<+glx>though on vista it's less required
09:43<@Rubidium>what's a pc?
09:43<@Rubidium>an iMac is also a pc
09:44<KenjiE20>"I'm a PC"
09:44<Ammler>I guess, you can only setup a windows pc with non admin users, if you know, there is no other program to install later...
09:44<+glx>there's always something to install ;)
09:45<+glx>and most installers needs admin rights even when user rights are enough
09:45<Ammler>indeed, so nonadmin on win is only a office thing, unuseable for private...
09:46<+glx>if installer is a good one it writes only in HKCU but most use HKLM
09:46<Brokkoli>you dont have to install every day
09:48<+glx>even worse msvc 2005 needs to be run as admin if you want to debug
09:49<@Darkvater>glx: oh?
09:49<+glx>for at least
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09:49<@Darkvater>I never had that and I'm using XP as a simple user, not even power
09:49<+glx>maybe it's vista only too
09:49<Ammler>glx: makes code review adventurely :-)
09:50<Ammler>do you run it in a vm then?
09:51<+glx>I guess it's because it needs to start a web server
09:52<dihedral>Rubidium, an iMac is not a pc!
09:52<@Rubidium>dihedral: and why isn't it?
09:52<+glx>a cpc is a pc ;)
09:52<dihedral>Rubidium, it's an intosh
09:52<+glx>a colour one :)
09:53<Ammler>well, since they use intel, they lost that spirit...
09:54<+glx>but not the higher cost
09:54<@Rubidium>dihedral: so you're claiming that you can share an iMac with multiple persons working on it at the same time?
09:54<Ammler>they are just expensive pcs anymore ;-)
09:54<+glx>well they don't have a bios
09:55<el_en>Ammler: where can i buy a pc that is the size of mac mini, and is cheaper?
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09:55<dihedral>Rubidium, of course multiple people can work on a mac at the same time
09:56<@Rubidium>right... an iMac only has one screen
09:56<el_en>Ammler: and has same or better specs
09:56<dihedral>glx, open firmware :-)
09:56<el_en>dihedral: EFI
09:56<+glx>it's not a BIOS
09:56<+glx>that's why installing windows is not "easy"
09:56<Ammler>we used an IMac quite a long time as webserver
09:57<|Japa|>just install mac-os on a cheaper PC, simple
09:57<@Rubidium>and I don't think adding ten mouses and keyboards via usb hubs will make it possible for 10 people to simultaniously edit a document
09:57<+glx>|Japa|: it's not "easy" either ;)
09:57<el_en>|Japa|: i think you just missed a lot of points.
09:57<@Rubidium>installing windows is easier than installing osx
09:57<@Rubidium>windows 'just' doesn't crash during loading it's installer
09:58<el_en>Rubidium: english only, *mice
09:58<|Japa|>well, me being the loneley guy I am, I'm more interested in one person using two comps at once
09:59<dihedral>Rubidium, connecting multiple mice / keyboards is not what i understand under working simultaneously on a system
09:59<dihedral>rather though remote connections e.g. ssh? :-P
10:00<@Rubidium>dihedral: then Windows doesn't run on PCs either
10:00<@Rubidium>cause you can work on those with multiple people at the same time using e.g. telnet or remote desktop
10:01<@Rubidium>but seriously all consumer computers made by Apple are PCs
10:01<dihedral>Rubidium, where was my definition that mac was not a pc based on it being usable by multiple people?
10:02<dihedral>i said it's an "intosh"
10:02<dihedral>you were the one coming along with 'can multiple people work on it'
10:03<@Rubidium>dihedral: it's defined in the dictionary in that manner
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10:04<dihedral>you completely missed my pun :-(
10:05<@Rubidium>ah well, I dislike Apple for their VERY VERY close merge of software and hardware
10:05<@Rubidium>e.g. the on-off button is operated/handled by the OS
10:06<dihedral>and where does windows not do handle that signal?
10:06<@Rubidium>which becomes evident in cases you thoroughly crash your Apple with a screensaver and you can't turn it off in any manner that doesn't mean removing the power cord and waiting till be battery runs out
10:07<dihedral>when my mac crashed pressing the powerbutton for a few seconds always solved it
10:07<@Rubidium>dihedral: windows gets a notification, but it's the motherboard that actually shuts down your computer after pressing the on-off button for 4 seconds
10:07<dihedral>and that was a total of 3 times in the last 4 years
10:07<[wito]>Rubidium: I don't know what machine you have that problem on, but all of my apples still respect the power-button in 6 seconds: die rule
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10:08<[wito]>Of course, it doesn't work with your keyboard power button
10:08<[wito]>but all the machines (I've come accross) also have a hardware button
10:08<[wito]>(with the possible exception of the 1st. gen iMacs)
10:09<@Rubidium>ofcourse when that crash issue happened I was 'only' a newbie in the MacOS scene
10:09<dihedral>that was how many years ago?
10:09<@Rubidium>and was forbidden access to that computer after that crash
10:09<dihedral>pre os x?
10:09<[wito]>It's usually a brushed steel button on the front or a white button on the back
10:09<@Rubidium>don't know how long ago it was exactly anymore
10:10*Rubidium likes the idea of Apple to make the batteries unremovable too
10:10<dihedral>os x pops up a window (after opacing the rest of the screen) saying that it's crashed and you need to hold down the power button for x seconds
10:10*dihedral can remove his battery quite easily
10:10<dihedral>i just need a coin ^^
10:11<@Rubidium>yeah, but with those aluminium unibodies that's going to be a problem
10:11<dihedral>i thought the laptops had the same mechanism
10:11<dihedral>the new laptops compared to the old Gx generation
10:13<@Rubidium>requiring unscrewing 13 Philips screws isn't something that is consumer proof
10:13<dihedral>no ^^
10:13<+glx>and murphy says the last screw will be destroyed ;)
10:13<dihedral>but then their batteries do last longer ^^
10:14<@Rubidium>especially when the battery producer comes with an errata about the battery possibly exploding and the airlines forcing you to remove the battery from your laptop before boarding the plane
10:14<dihedral>i had one of those batteries... now i miss it ^^
10:14<dihedral>it had more power :-P
10:15<@Rubidium>and I don't think that the airport security lets you into the secure area with a screwdriver, so it needs to go into your non-carry-on luggage
10:15<|Japa|>ad with audio on the winamp now playing page = FAIL
10:16<@Rubidium>so you can't use your laptop after checking in your luggage
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10:16<@Rubidium>that's going to be really fun when it happens ;)
10:17<dihedral>my lappy has been with me on planes many times ^^
10:17<dihedral>incl. it's airport extreme card
10:17<el_en>dihedral: english only, *its
10:18<dihedral>just wanted to know if you were paying attention ^^
10:18<|Japa|>nah, the last screw is not destroyed, iit get's instantly warped into a quantum singularity on removal
10:18<el_en>|Japa|: english only, *gets
10:19<@Rubidium>dihedral: its nice when someone pays attention, isn't it?
10:19<el_en>(i'm not going to notice that as Rubidium did it on purpose)
10:19<dihedral>el_en, you missed, "iit"
10:20<el_en>dihedral: i assumed it's a simple typo. not dangerous.
10:20<dihedral>Rubidium, sure its nice, but it look's like your trying to tease our poor el_en
10:21<@Rubidium>oh, is he around again?
10:21-!-|Japa| [~Japa@] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> <- \o/]
10:21<DASPRiD>he's pretty round
10:21<@Rubidium>let's put an apo'strophe before each 's to 'signal that there i's a 's coming
10:22<@Rubidium>it''s nice to do, e'specially in when doing it to the extreme's
10:23<dihedral>i think el_en is gonna 'suppre's's any comment's now
10:23<dihedral>uhhh...... i mi's'sed one.... *i's
10:23<+glx>you failed
10:23*dihedral 'smile's
10:24<dihedral>glx, actually i did not, i wa's ju'st looking for word's with two e's'se's in them :-D
10:24<+glx>hmm maybe I'll add a script for taht
10:26<dihedral>i want to use such a auto-replacement too
10:26<dihedral>and mine just failed as well
10:26<+glx>'stupid language it''s ('str, to ,from)
10:27<@TrueBrain>glx: that really i's 'stupid ye's ...
10:27<@TrueBrain>what language i's that?
10:27<+glx>kvirc 'script
10:27*dihedral can write plugins in tcl ^^
10:28<@TrueBrain>hmmm .. I wonder how to write thi's:
10:29<@petern>oh dear
10:30<@TrueBrain>ye's darling?
10:30<@petern>liquid lunch
10:31<+glx>grr I failed to filter on chan name
10:31<@TrueBrain>poor glx
10:34<+glx>work's :)
10:34<el_en>r u 'sure u don't wan't 'to prefix all 't's a's well?
10:34<@TrueBrain>concratz :)
10:34<+glx>I could remove 'space's too
10:36<dihedral>'i' 't'h'i'n'k' 'i' 'w'a'n't' 't'o' 'p'r'e'f'i'x' 'e'v'e'r'y' 'c'h'a'r' 'i' 't'y'p'e'!'
10:36<@petern>thi's get's u's nowhere
10:36<+glx>indeed :)
10:36<@petern>(some people *do* write get's :/)
10:37<dihedral>set and get's fun
10:37*TrueBrain hugs Belugas
10:38<@Rubidium>petern: or sai'd or saied or sayed
10:38<+glx>dihedral: 're
10:38<@TrueBrain>so: get's fun
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10:39<@Rubidium>wh nt rmv ll vwls?
10:39<@TrueBrain>why not all just shut up and go do something useful? :p
10:39<dihedral>vwls nd spcs
10:40<+glx>that's scriptable too ;)
10:40<el_en>that must be czech
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10:40<@TrueBrain>dihedral: 'e' :p
10:40<dihedral>awww... shoot - i lost
10:41<@TrueBrain>now go stand in a corner
10:41*dihedral steps into the corner of the room :-(
10:41<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: that's lame; now he may chose a corner he likes
10:41<@petern>So, yeah, English only?
10:42<@Rubidium>like CORNER_INVALID
10:42<@TrueBrain>Rubidium: yeah .. the benefit of being the first who loses :p
10:42<@petern>Oh, I see, this whole 'conversation' started with a get's :/
10:42<dihedral>ptrn: ppl ll f sddn mks sns
10:43<+glx>hmm I don't get it
10:43<dihedral>"petern: ppl all of a sudden makes sense"
10:43<dihedral>ppl = removed vowels
10:44<@petern>i see
10:44<el_en>how about a Tolkien-style English Only rule; only germanic words allowed, not french and latin?
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10:45<[wito]>Oh my.
10:45<el_en>I've been taught that the Rohirrim did not use any french/latin-origin words in the book(s).
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11:11<@Belugas>damned... i'm forced to install perl for a bug to fix :(
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11:53<@TrueBrain>I wonder ... did anyone ever notice that the big image at is different every day of the week? :p
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11:56<[wito]>the one under the logo?
11:56<@TrueBrain>under the big logo, yes
11:57<[wito]>that is to say, the banner
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12:00<dihedral>TrueBrain, did you forget that i noticed that before the page was live?
12:00<@TrueBrain>dihedral: did you forget I was not asking you? :p
12:00<@TrueBrain>dihedral: shouldn't you be going home or something? :p
12:00<@petern>did you forget that nobody cares?
12:00*dihedral sobs
12:00<@petern>4pm... no home time yet :(
12:00<dihedral>i am at home :-P
12:01<@TrueBrain>petern: that is not a nice thing to say :(
12:01<|Japa|>did you guys forget that it's : here?
12:01*|Japa| needs a new keyboard
12:01<@petern>it's : here, eh?
12:01<dihedral>or its? :-P
12:03<|Japa|>it's 9:30 but the keyboard I type on don't have working numbers
12:04<|Japa|>is currently lacking
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12:19<[wito]>eww 12 hr clock
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12:22<|Japa|>as far as I'm concerned, it's eww digital
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12:23<[wito]>digital <-> analog; 12hr clock <-> 24hr clock
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12:24<|Japa|>I can't type analog
12:24<[wito]>you have digital 12hr clocks and 24hr analog watches
12:24<|Japa|>any typing is automatically digital
12:25<|Japa|>as for twenty four hour, matter of what your comfortable with
12:25<Yexo>non-digital typing:
12:25<|Japa|>I have to convert in my head
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12:34<Yexo>TrueBrain: did you change anything related to the wiki lately?
12:34<Yexo>1. I can't logout anymore
12:34<Yexo>2. It's impossible to create a new account
12:34<Yexo>3. IE reports scripting errors on every page, it didn't do that a few days ago
12:35<@TrueBrain>Yexo: as I said, there is a new httpd serving the pages ;)
12:36<@TrueBrain>let me check
12:36<+glx>logout fail confirmed
12:37<@TrueBrain>try it now
12:37<Yexo>it works now
12:37<Yexo>the errors in IE are gone too
12:37<@TrueBrain>IE sucks anyway
12:38<Yexo>now the links in the box on the left (Main page/Community portal/Current events/etc.) are broken
12:38<+glx>hmm it does work with IETab
12:38<Yexo>every link seems broken
12:38<@TrueBrain>mediawiki is broken :(
12:39<@petern>nice job
12:39<Yexo>glx: can you follow any link in IE(tab)?
12:39<@TrueBrain>it doesn't allow removing the 'index.php' part without .. well .. fucking up :p
12:40<+glx>hmm it seems my ie is broken :/
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12:42<+glx>ok restarted ff and now ie works :)
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12:43<@TrueBrain>k .. a dirty hack
12:43<@TrueBrain>but it should work now
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12:43<@TrueBrain>working might not be the correct word to descrive this ..
12:44<+glx>with ietab each link adds a /
12:44<@TrueBrain>glx: has nothing to do with ietab
12:44<+glx>yes it's ie
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12:44<@TrueBrain>..... okay, if you say so
12:45<Yexo>glx: I had the same with ff, but now it's gone
12:45<@TrueBrain>it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact I just told mediawiki to do that ...
12:45<Yexo>and I can't reproduce it with ie either
12:45<+glx>indeed it's ok now
12:45<@TrueBrain>anyway, problem description: mediawiki makes a link to, say, Main_Page like: /Main_Page
12:45<@TrueBrain>those links are prefixed with 'wgScript'
12:45<@TrueBrain>normally that is 'index.php'
12:45<@TrueBrain>I wanted to remove 'index.php'
12:46<@TrueBrain>euh, '/index.php'
12:46<@TrueBrain>so instead of /index.php/Main_Page
12:46<@TrueBrain>it should be /Main_Page
12:46<@TrueBrain>but now links like ?login
12:46<@TrueBrain>become /Main_Page?login, instead of /?login
12:46<@TrueBrain>so .. I added the '/' instead of the '/index.php'
12:46<@TrueBrain>but now the link is //Main_Page
12:46<@TrueBrain>which is seen as http://Main_Page/
12:46<@TrueBrain>so mediawiki is broken by design :p
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12:47<@Belugas>don't you like it to receive an email requesting for opinion about a possible feature, and to see that request in the forums as well?
12:47<@TrueBrain>Belugas: I don't like emails :p
12:48<+glx>I can't login
12:48<@TrueBrain>glx: care reading above? might give you the reason why ..
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12:52<@TrueBrain>@kick Mortal come back when your connection is stable
12:52-!-Mortal was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [come back when your connection is stable]
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12:52<@TrueBrain>@kban Mortal 30 come back when your connection is stable
12:52-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
12:52-!-Mortal was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [come back when your connection is stable]
12:52-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
12:53<+glx>now it's totally dead :)
12:53<@TrueBrain>glx: maybe you can give useful input, as maybe a suggestion how to fix the situation above? :p
12:54-!-Guest974 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:55<+glx>it seems to work correctly now
12:55<@TrueBrain>long live undocumented features!
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12:56<@TrueBrain>Yexo: can you confirm?
12:56<Yexo>yes, works fine now
12:56<+glx>logout/login and no index.php :)
12:57<@TrueBrain>gna! And that all within the LocalSettings.php
12:57<@TrueBrain>hmm .. the https version only fails ..
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13:08<@TrueBrain>glx / Yexo: still working as expected?
13:09<@TrueBrain> <- can you also check that, if I didn't miss something obvious?
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13:10<Yexo>works fine too
13:10<@petern>it removes the wiki/ part
13:10<@TrueBrain>petern: indeed .. but not always :s
13:10<@petern>left menu is fine, content is not
13:11<@TrueBrain>I thought they built from the same variable ... clearly I am wrong :p
13:12<@petern>you'd think so wouldn't you...
13:12<+glx>secure works
13:12<+glx>(after I remembered my password :)
13:14<@TrueBrain>let me guess .... collision in memcache ....
13:16<@TrueBrain>oh jolly ....
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13:22<@TrueBrain>okay .. if the cache of your browsers expire, it should now work correctly on both secure as on wiki :)
13:22<@TrueBrain>petern: can you confirm that for me?
13:24<@petern>the links work
13:24<@petern>i've not tried logging in at all
13:24<@TrueBrain>the links is what I cared about :)
13:26<@TrueBrain>k, let me know if there are any other problems :)
13:37<frosch123>btw. wouldn't it be useful if the "Donations" link on the wiki would link to the usual donation page, instead of the duplicate on the wiki
13:42<@Belugas>can anyone kick prodigit big time?
13:42<@Belugas>such a wimp
13:42<@Belugas>helllo frosch123
13:42<frosch123>afternoon belugas :)
13:44<Ammler>just wondering, why do you use a host "secure" for ssl and not *
13:45<Ammler>(doesn't cacert allow wildcard certs?)
13:45<TinoDidriksen>The usual excuse is that wildcard certs are expensive, but seems it's a self-signed cert anyway so wouldn't matter.
13:46<KingJ>CACert allows wildcards, i've used one myself
13:46<Ammler>no, it isn't
13:47<Ammler>TinoDidriksen: but casert are ususally not installed on the most browsers.
13:48<TinoDidriksen>Indeed, including latest Firefox.
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13:48<Ammler>that is quite sad...
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13:49*frosch123 enjoys prodigit's topic :)
13:49<TinoDidriksen>So one has to click 4-5 times to ever see the actual site with such a cert, same as with self-signed ones.
13:53<@TrueBrain>frosch123: I think that would be useful
13:54<@TrueBrain>wildcards in certs do not truly exist .. it is more abuse
13:54<@TrueBrain>but we have a cert for all ssl domains
13:54<frosch123>TrueBrain: then it is your turn, I do not seem to have the rights for that
13:54<@TrueBrain>we just rather avoid using SSN or what is it called .. as not all browsers use that
13:55<@TrueBrain>frosch123: neither do I :(
13:55<@TrueBrain>I can't type ....
13:55<@TrueBrain>s/all sll domains/all domains/
13:55<@TrueBrain>s/use that/support that/
13:56<Ammler>TinoDidriksen: cacert is quite common for opensouce sites, so if you would install the authority cert, you would be fine
13:57<Ammler>TrueBrain: but those browsers support virtual domains?
13:57<@TrueBrain>either way, works fine
13:58<@TrueBrain>Ammler: virtual ssl domains is MUCH MORE new than HTTP/1.1 is ..
13:58<Ammler>hmm, I guess, we don't speak about the same :-)
13:59<Ammler>well, nvm. was just wondering...
13:59<@TrueBrain>I wonder about what you wonder, as https works on all domains :p
14:01<Ammler>hehe, forwards ;-)
14:01<@TrueBrain>I believe only bananas isn't in the certificate yet
14:01<@TrueBrain>but that happens at next renew
14:02<Ammler>but if the forward works, why wouldn't it work without "secure"
14:02<@TrueBrain>it would; we just choose to use this convention
14:02<@TrueBrain>much easier and much more clear
14:02<@TrueBrain>if your url is, you are over a TLS connection
14:02<@TrueBrain>(smtp, imap, http, .......)
14:03<@petern>ammler talks of wildcard ssl
14:03<@TrueBrain>useless things to have
14:03<@TrueBrain>like wildcard dns entries
14:04<@TrueBrain>or wildcard (catchall) emails
14:04<TinoDidriksen>Wildcard makes life easy.
14:04<@TrueBrain>makes you lazy
14:04<TinoDidriksen>Catchall email makes it even easier...I enjoy signing up to sites as instead of having to use + notation.
14:05<@petern>catch-all email is great for getting spam
14:05<@TrueBrain>spammer will thank you TinoDidriksen
14:06<TinoDidriksen>I have good filters, so never bothered me.
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14:07<Ammler>TinoDidriksen: I forwarded * to my gmail account
14:08<Ammler>after some time, blocked my mailserver because of too much spam. :-)
14:08<TinoDidriksen>And wildcard DNS is lovely. Makes managing subdomains much easier...set a vhost to load X.domain.tld from public_html/X/ and people are happy. Only www needs special treatment that way.
14:09<@TrueBrain>it indeed takes so much time to add an entry in your DNS table .. lol :)
14:09<@TrueBrain>as I said: lazy!
14:09<TinoDidriksen>It's easy to add. Not so fun to wait for it to propagate.
14:09<@TrueBrain>new entries are instant
14:09<@TrueBrain>else you need to get a real DNS service
14:10<@TrueBrain>(I can offer you one ;))
14:10<@petern>(and don't use the propagate 'myth'amongst techies)
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14:13<TinoDidriksen>I use - best service I've ever had. Anyway, wildcarding makes life easier. Why spend time managing when you can set it up once and have it Just Work for near eternity thereafter?
14:13<@TrueBrain>I hate repeating myself, but: lazy!
14:14*petern plays with code::blocks
14:14<TinoDidriksen>It's all about being lazy...that's what we do - find ways to be lazy. Disguised as efficiency, but still.
14:14*petern 's custom web interface for dns is lazy, but still...
14:14<@TrueBrain>TinoDidriksen: I've been doing the job of sysop for years now .. after a while you notice it is not as efficient as you might think ;)
14:15*petern remembers the days when he had to edit configs on several dns servers for just one change
14:15<@TrueBrain> has 25 subdomains .. wildcards makes that a bit ... euh ... untransparent ;)
14:15<@TrueBrain>petern: hehe :) The good new days ;)
14:16<@petern>i prefer my web interface to be honest
14:16<TinoDidriksen>Worked fine for me for the past 8 years. If I want to use a new subdomain I just create the folder and start using it; no need to fiddle with DNS unless I want it on another IP, which is very rare.
14:17<@TrueBrain>oh, why do I bother .. I talk to you again in a few years, see if you still think so :)
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14:18<Ammler>TinoDidriksen: how does that work? = or ?
14:19<@petern>that would work however you set up your web server
14:19<@TrueBrain>I think Ammler doesn't understand ;)
14:19<TinoDidriksen>In my case, sub.domain.tld is served from that user's public_html/sub/
14:19<@petern>most "subdomains" (i call them host names) that i use are not for web serving...
14:19<TinoDidriksen>Except www.
14:20<Ammler>TrueBrain: well, no need, it is quite useless, imo.
14:21<@TrueBrain>or why else you say it to me?
14:21<Ammler>I am answering you :-)
14:22<@TrueBrain>you consider something useless you don't understand
14:22<@TrueBrain>now that is .. useless :p
14:22<Ammler>I am having subdomains redirected to subfolders of maindomain...
14:22<TinoDidriksen>That would be horrible for most of my work...
14:23<@TrueBrain> .. no .. that would be useless and horrible indeed ;) :p
14:23<TinoDidriksen>sub.domain.tld does not have to equal domain.tld/sub - .htaccess or other things can interfere with that, and behavior of sites may differ depending on whether they think they're in the root or not.
14:25<thingwath>how is it different from having just domain.tld/sub?
14:26<@TrueBrain>use subdomains where they are for, or don't use them at all :)
14:27<TinoDidriksen>Scoping of cookies, scripts, paths, etc...lots of differences in behavior.
14:28<Ammler>hmm, cookies, indeed.
14:28<Ammler>that is something, not working on our server, I suspect.
14:30<TinoDidriksen>Development of a new app designed to be served from the root of a domain, etc. Lots of use cases for subdomains where subfolders just won't do as easily.
14:32<@TrueBrain>anyway, is simular to domein.tld/sub I guess .. works relative well for most projects, not for all ;) (they demand to be in the root)
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14:37<eQualizer>0.7.0-RC1 crashed when I tried to save.
14:37<eQualizer>Something about missing TTD files :E
14:42<Forked>"something"? =p
14:42<eQualizer>I just hit Okay and restarted OpenTTD.
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14:49<Yexo>eQualizer: most likely a dup of FS#2742, can you upload your crash.dmp somewhere (assuming you use windows)?
14:50<eQualizer>I'm on Mac.
14:50<Yexo>did you click on the tiny grey bar betweenthe file list and the input box with the filename?
14:51<eQualizer>I'm not 100% sure, but could be.
14:59<@TrueBrain>clicking on a FS# link in finally works :)
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15:04<+glx>nice :)
15:04<@TrueBrain>maybeit is more a fact of finally took the time to .. but who cares
15:04<+glx>it used to link to trac items
15:04<@TrueBrain>it still does ;) Which has a httpd redirect on it now :p
15:05<@TrueBrain>hmmm ... I am out of drinks .. sucks ..
15:05<+glx>I don't care how done if it works ;)
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15:30<pavel1269>_age_cargo_skip_counter is counted even if train is still in station ... right?
15:31<ecke>is there any option to allow autoreplace GEC Class 91 with GEC-A "Eurostar" when freight train?
15:33<Yexo>put all freight train in the same group and replace the engine for that group only
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15:38<ecke>Yexo is there some server settings or something much easier than moving 60 trains to one group one by one?
15:39<Yexo>if you trains have shared orders, put one of themin the new group and use the "Move all shared order-vehicles here" <- that option is named something else, but you get what I mean
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15:42<Yexo>it's under "manage list"
15:43<Sacro>91 hauled freight?
15:43<Sacro>slab end first too
15:44<ecke>Yexo i think a dont have shared orders...
15:44<ecke>Sacro ?
15:44<Sacro>also, ICQ, not seen that in yers
15:44<ecke>dont understand.. .slab end first too
15:45<@TrueBrain>does ICQ still exist?!
15:45<Sacro>well a 91 has two ends
15:45<Sacro>front <------] back
15:45<Sacro>the back is the slab end
15:45<Sacro>which tends to face the middle
15:45<ecke>hm.. there is only one ... :)
15:46<Sacro>also, 91s don't haul freight :p
15:46<Sacro>they are express passenger
15:46<pavel1269>i bet he knows
15:46<ecke>Sacro ... but its fastest :)
15:47<Sacro>well the mineral trains are limited to 45
15:47<Sacro>91 can do 140ish
15:47<Sacro>use a 90 for freight if you must
15:47<ecke>looks that you are realistic
15:47<Sacro>well, it's more practical too
15:47<ecke> i like whem my trains move fast :)
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15:48<thingwath>idea of BR class 91 in Ostrava is itself so funny, that it really doesn't matter what would it haul :)
15:49<pavel1269>good point thought
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15:54<ecke>doesnt work [20:33:31] Yexo: put all freight train in the same group and replace the engine for that group only
15:55<Yexo>ecke: what doesn't work?
15:55<ecke>put all freight train in the same group and replace the engine for that group only
15:55<Yexo>what doesn't work about that?
15:55<Yexo>do you get an error message, are the wrong trains replaced, ie what doesn't behave as you think it should?
15:56<pavel1269>he wanted to raplace that train? :-D
15:57<pavel1269>he didnt wanted just to replace fraight train ;)
15:57<ecke>Autorenew failed on Train 72 These train vehicles are not compatible
15:58<el_en>pavel1269: *didn't want
15:59<pavel1269>ahh, thanks ... need to get better in english, didnt notice that had 2* ed :-)
15:59<el_en>pavel1269: *didn't
15:59<pavel1269>come on, everyone know this one :-D
16:00<el_en>sadly not
16:00<Yexo>ecke: what openttd version are you using?
16:00<Yexo>I can't find that error message in trunk
16:00<pavel1269>so ecke, "je jakub online?" :-)
16:01<pavel1269>Yexo: STR_VEHICLE_AUTORENEW_FAILED ?
16:01<Yexo>pavel1269: and what about the second part?
16:01<Yexo>I alreadyfound that string
16:02<Yexo>ecke: that is not a version, I ment what patches are aplied, etc.
16:02<ecke> [1.86 MiB]
16:02<ecke>Downloaded 58 times
16:02<pavel1269>oh, good point :-)
16:03<ecke>on server running openttd-IS-2.0beta1-hb40dd43f-linux-i686.tar.bz2 [3.23 MiB]
16:03<Yexo>ecke: sorry, can't help you
16:03<ecke>./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D ... btw once i paused > saved >chamged same options in cfg > load >run > connect
16:04<Yexo>that string is not in trunk,so the only thing Ican say is complain to the patch author
16:04<Yexo>changing settings in the config file doens't change them for savegames
16:05<ecke>Yexo btw th ISbeta1 is based on 0.7.0 beta 1
16:05<Aali>no it isn't
16:05<Aali>and it certainly doesn't add that string
16:06<Yexo>Aali: which trunk revision is ISbeta1 based on?
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16:08<Yexo>I can't find that string in r15647 either
16:08<Aali>is it possible to set that error string from the newgrf itself?
16:09<Yexo>so that's the only option left
16:09<Yexo>ecke: in that case: you're out of luck, use another engine
16:12-!-TrueBrain [~truebrain@] has left #openttd [Konversation terminated!]
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16:15<Ammler>ecke: have you SDL installed on your server?
16:15<Ammler>or is that a new feature of openttd?
16:15<Ammler>(running dedicated without need of SDL)
16:17<ecke>Ammler libsdl1.2-dev (required)
16:17<ecke> ...... libsdl1.2-dev instaled
16:19<Ammler>updated my tt-forums thread with the dedicated version, so you wouldn't need sdl.
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16:20<Ammler>he, the bundle is "just" 10 kB smaller ;-)
16:20<ecke>Ammler ... but it doesn solved my problme right?
16:20<ecke>didnt solve
16:20<Ammler>of course not.
16:21<ecke>and where is problem in used revision or in patch? ... in other version is it posible this type of replacement?
16:22<Ammler>which set do you use?
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16:24<ecke>set? you mean newgrf?
16:24<Ammler>trainset, yes.
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16:28<ecke>Ammler UK renewal
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16:28<@Belugas>how nice... "does not work like i like it to work, therefor it must be a bug" :S
16:32*petern sticks to his usual trick of ignoring it
16:32<Ammler>lol, he is using version 0.5 just because of that?
16:33<@Belugas>hu... it's not REALISTIC!!!!
16:34<planetmaker>good evening
16:37<@Belugas>It won't give up
16:37<@Belugas>It wants me dead
16:37<@Belugas>and God Damn this noise
16:37<@Belugas>inside my head!
16:38<Ammler>I wan't more "unrealistic" features
16:38<Ammler>like ingame rivers :-)
16:40<@Belugas>and Play GOD
16:40<planetmaker>GOD MODE :)
16:43<@petern>Ammler, write it
16:43<Ammler>petern: roujin already did
16:43<planetmaker>ingame rivers != lively rivers
16:44<Ammler>lively rivers is too realistic :P
16:44<goodger>bwarp --- bwarp --- bwarp --- realism detected --- this is not a drill...
16:45<Ammler>Belugas: ingame rivers is the feature already in scenario editor, just also available ingame.
16:47<Ammler>and is declined because of I-don't-have-enough-brave-to-say-it-again
16:47<@petern>enough brave!
16:47<Ammler>hmm, just thought about, can't have it, he :-)
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16:56<DASPRiD>openttd needs dual-screen support :)
16:56<DASPRiD>planetmaker, oh, hi!
16:57<planetmaker>DASPRiD: :)
16:57<planetmaker>DASPRiD: I've no problem with two screens an openttd
16:57<DASPRiD>planetmaker, that actually works fine? gotta test that
16:57<@petern>sdl needs dual-screen support
16:57<planetmaker>It works on my linux box :)
16:57<DASPRiD>planetmaker, got my second monitor replaced btw :)
16:57<planetmaker>just drag the window over the two monitors and enjoy
16:58<@petern>that isn't dual-screen support
16:58<planetmaker>well. Sufficient IMO :)
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17:00<@Belugas>that desk is ugly
17:00<@Belugas>it's way too clean
17:00<@Belugas>it HAS to be messier!!
17:00<DASPRiD>sorry i have a maid :P
17:00<@Belugas>i'd prefer a mermaid ,yself
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17:01<ecke>is it some way possible change freight_trains to 0 ?
17:02<Zuu>Why would you like to do that?
17:02<Zuu>You could try editing your openttd.cfg, but I doubt it will work.
17:02<Zuu>And openttd.cfg will only affect new games.
17:03<Yexo>that won't work
17:03<Zuu>You most likely need to change the code to accept values below 0, and then fix any zero divisions that make happen.
17:03<Yexo>and like Zuu said, why would you want that?
17:03<Zuu>below 1*
17:04<Zuu>make => may
17:06<Zuu>Yexo: I think i said it before when you was afk, but you made a good job by quickly implementing that the AI debug window is shown when an AI crashess. :)
17:06<Yexo>thanks :)
17:06<Yexo>now lets hope it improves the reports from users
17:07<Zuu>When I saw the email, my first though was that it was rejected, because you was so fast :)
17:07<Yexo>nah, it was a nice suggestions, and easy to implement
17:07<Zuu>Yep, I hope so too.
17:08<Zuu>It is actually not much in the way when developing either. Quite nice if you don't have it open that you get informed that the AI crashed.
17:10<Zuu>One thing you could think of is to add a warning box if someone has selected to have > 0 competors and have not downloaded any AIs.
17:11<Zuu>Perhaps issue the waring when pressing generate button or, have it appear after the map has been generated (as that can probably be more generic to work also for height maps etc.)
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17:12<Zuu>If you want to I can file such a suggestion on flyspray.
17:13<Yexo>when the users has no AIs, the dummy AI is loaded
17:14<Yexo>the only thing the dummy ai does is printing 3 lines (via AILog::Error) that says the users should download an AI
17:14<ecke>.... so i need some way change freight_trains to 0 in saved game...
17:14<Yexo>the debug panel is opened (so the users can read it), but no warning box is shown saying the user should report the crash
17:14<Yexo>ecke: as already said, that's no possible without recompiling openttd
17:15<Yexo>ecke: and why do you want to do that?
17:15<ecke>Yexo as i said i d like to use eurostar for freight trains
17:17<Zuu>Yexo: Then that should be okay, if the debug panel is opened and shows those lines. At least if the users understand to read from bottom and up.
17:17<ecke>i make one big mistake... before starting game a copied cfg from another game where was freight_trains on 1 ....
17:17<Yexo>ecke: you can't set that value to 0
17:17<Yexo>if you want to change it in-game, open the console and type "set freight_trains <newvalue>"
17:17<Zuu>ecke: 1 means, freight trains have 1 times the usual weight.
17:17<Yexo>console is openend with ~ (key left to 1 on your keyboard)
17:17<Zuu>2 = 2 times usual weight etc.
17:18<Zuu>0 would mean weight less trains.
17:18<@Belugas>so 0 means it's a balloon
17:18<@Belugas>and gone means i'm gone
17:18<@Belugas>bye all
17:18<Zuu>bye Belugas
17:19<ecke>Zuu .. damn .. i lost in these options
17:19<Zuu>I think it is called freight train weight _multiplier_, which if you know some basic math terms should tell you what it is doing.
17:20<Ammler>ecke, default set has eurostart
17:21<ecke>Ammler ... i am trying to solve which settings cause my problem
17:22<Ammler>did you read the readme of the set?
17:24<ecke>hmm it caused by set... now i tried that
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17:30<ecke>so its cause by grfset... how to change grfset? :D
17:33<+glx>don't change newgrf in a running game
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17:34<Ammler>glx: rephrase it: "it is not recommend to change newgrf settings in a running game" ;-)
17:34<+glx>better not do it at all :)
17:34-!-Zahl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:35<Ammler>or "don't report bugs, if you changed newgrf settings" :-)
17:36<+glx>anyway if you want to use the fastest engine to pull anything, don't use any newgrf :)
17:38<ecke>is there some editing guide?
17:38<Ammler>do you like to edit ukrs?
17:42<ecke>for test
17:42<ecke>some copyrigts?
17:47<ecke>Ammler ^^
17:53<Zuu>for private use you can often do more or less what you want. But as I sad, only for private use.
17:53<Zuu>But there should be an readme for ukrs I think.
18:00<@Darkvater>hi guys
18:01<Zuu>Hi Darkvater
18:02<@Darkvater>get to work people!
18:02*Darkvater cracks whip
18:04<pavel1269>i just might go to bed to sleeo :-)
18:06<Zuu>Yea, a but late to start working at 11 PM :)
18:06<@Darkvater>no time is too late for openttd
18:06<Zuu>Except if you prefers the darkness :)
18:06<@Darkvater>with this kind of mentality I ought to kickban you all
18:06<@Darkvater>look at me!
18:06<@Darkvater>I'm still here motivating your behinds
18:07<Zuu>I actually made an edit on the wiki, see how productive I've been.. :p
18:07<Sacro>you get off my behind, pervert
18:08<@Darkvater>ok, wiki; but it only ocunts as half
18:08<Zuu>Let me say, it was a really small edit. :)
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18:37<pavel1269>does Property Maintenance in openttd cost only for stations?
18:38<pavel1269>any ideas where does is calculate?
18:38<pavel1269>i mean .cpp
18:38<Aali>try economy
18:39-!-helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:41<pavel1269>have it, thanks
18:41<Zuu>It is about 500 pounds per transport mode available, and then sum all stations. In 1950, from my testings in OpenTTD (whout looking in the source)
18:42<pavel1269>i dont care about prices :-)
18:43<pavel1269>i am creating daylength .... if you slow down time, you should pay more per month and so on
18:43<pavel1269>this is last stuff which havent worked
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18:50<Sacro>stop stealing my daylength patch :P
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19:25<pavel1269>Sacro: i just stole idea :-)
19:26<pavel1269>have you finished you patch?
19:26<pavel1269>is that the one in chrissins thread?
19:26<pavel1269>or even older?
19:27<Sacro>older :p
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19:51<Turnskin>Hi all
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19:53<Turnskin>Thanx to Brokkoli for ver. 0.7 advice!
19:54<Turnskin>i use this version and have no problem. Very nice interface of additional settings (tree).
19:54<Turnskin>But i have some questions now.
19:55<Zuu>Just unload them and wee see what we can/want answer :)
19:55<Turnskin>1st, khow can i destroy semaphores w/o destroying the railway?
19:56<Turnskin>In some versions of TTDP and OTTD i had this possibility (forget which). Somethg like CTRL+click.
19:57<DaleStan>It's been possible since TTD. And it was never ctrl-click.
19:57<Turnskin>2nd, Khow can i tell these stupid trains DO NOT TURN at all?
19:58<DaleStan>You do it approximately the same way you'd remove one piece of rail on a tile without removing all the rail on that tile.
19:58<Turnskin>I'm not sure about combination, but it was like destroying of rails now - red line (or so) removing any semaphore in the distance.
19:58<DaleStan>If you don't want the trains to turn, don't build junctions.
19:58<Turnskin>DaleStan I meant turning before signals.
19:58<Brokkoli>there is a config setting
19:59<Brokkoli>wait_for_pbs_path = 30
19:59<Brokkoli>change this value to 255
19:59<DaleStan>Signals have (essentially) nothing to do with whether trains turn.
19:59<DaleStan>If you don't want the trains to turn, don't build junctions.
19:59<Turnskin>Yep, i'm well knowing as "Turn at end of station only" as "wait_to_oneway_signal" key.
19:59<Brokkoli>wait_oneway_signal = 15
19:59<Brokkoli>wait_twoway_signal = 41
20:00<Brokkoli>this ;
20:00<Brokkoli>to 255
20:00<Turnskin>Yep, i know
20:00<DaleStan>Now if they're doing something else, like maybe reversing, then it would be helpful to use the correct word.
20:00<Brokkoli>these 3 options are for waiting time
20:00<Brokkoli>change them to 255 and trains wont turn
20:00<Brokkoli>ok reverse
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20:01<Turnskin>But in case of one toway railroad with twoway signals they still reverse if signal is red.
20:01<Turnskin>I set YAPF for trains.
20:02<Turnskin>They turn seeing each other after the signal.
20:03<Brokkoli>i think that cannot be changed
20:03<Turnskin>I tried to make complex system of combo and exit signals for twoway any-direction path, but instead of waiting the opposite train will path the junction
20:04<Turnskin>the other train is reversing and blocks the way.
20:04<Turnskin>I remember TTDP with the same setting could stop the train at all.
20:05<Brokkoli>i don't know the exact junction layout now
20:05<Brokkoli>maybe there is a problem
20:05<Turnskin>The problem is they turn :(
20:06<Turnskin>May there's a key for YAPF in .cfg which can solve this turning? Like "penalty" or so?
20:07<Zuu>IIRC you can set timings so they don't turn on YAPP signals. But I have never fiddeled with those timings myself.
20:07<Turnskin>Let's them to stay before signal at all opposite each other, it will be my problem. But don't turn!
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20:08<Turnskin>Like this?
20:09<Brokkoli>whan they directly face each other they always will turn
20:09<Brokkoli>bedauce it's a deadlock otherwise
20:10<Turnskin>Brokkoli Yep. But i wanna them to stay!
20:10<Brokkoli>thats not possible
20:10<Brokkoli>why do you want that?
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20:10<Brokkoli>they would wait forever
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20:10<Turnskin>They are running like fleas in my twoway path causing each other never go in right direction at all.
20:11<Brokkoli>maybe you shoud change the track layout
20:12<Brokkoli>have a look here:
20:12<Brokkoli>most times you shouldn't use twoway signals
20:12<Turnskin>Brokkoli Of course. But it is complex with lots of presignals so if any of train will simply don't turn in jucntion, it will work.
20:13<Brokkoli>i don't think so
20:13<Brokkoli>they would wait forever
20:13<Brokkoli>if no train turns around
20:13<Turnskin>Brokkoli Thanx, but i read these articles worldwide as thoroughly as my university courses :)
20:14<Turnskin>OK, i'll try to change YAPF settings.
20:14<Brokkoli>changing that won't help
20:14<Brokkoli>it's real a track layout problem
20:14<Turnskin>3rd, can i remove some station tiles w/o removing the whole station?
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20:15<Brokkoli>open station building
20:15<Zuu>then press r-key
20:15<Brokkoli>and then press the "toggle add/remove" button in the track construction tollbar
20:15<Zuu>9 is the key for stations if i recall correctly. making it 9->r
20:16<Brokkoli>r is the other way ;)
20:16<Turnskin>Brokkoli Oooo, great thanx!
20:16<Zuu>I always use the r-key, never the button.
20:16<Brokkoli>yes r is faster.. i use that, too
20:16<Brokkoli>but the other one is easier ;)
20:16<Zuu>Also easier to tell people what key to press, than how a button looks like and where to find it :)
20:17<Turnskin>r key is enough :)
20:17<Brokkoli>thats right
20:17<Brokkoli>that works for signal removing too
20:18<Brokkoli>s and then r
20:18<Brokkoli>for remove signals
20:18<Turnskin>Brokkoli Great!
20:19<Turnskin>My 1 and 3 questions are closed. Much thanks!
20:20<Turnskin>Brokkoli I plan to compose an article for (in Russian) about realistic twoway onethread railway.
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20:21<Turnskin>I'm modelling this, meaning - no straight depots (i.e. train use depot only for escape, but it haven't to do it every time).
20:22<Sacro>eorge ] [ racetrack ] [ wision ]
20:22<Sacro>00:21 [ caladan ] [ GoneWacko ] [ Rexxars ] [ Wolfensteijn ]
20:22<Sacro>00:21 [ canidae ] [ goodger ] [ Ridayah_ ] [ Wolle ]
20:22<Sacro>00:21 [ ccfreak2k ] [ guru3 ] [ Sacro ] [ Xaroth ]
20:22<Sacro>00:21 [ Celestar ] [ HansAffe ] [ sigmund ] [ XeryusTC ]
20:22<Sacro>whoops :p
20:22<Turnskin>I tried to combine 2 side branches for escape with direct main thread. Branches have depots (or are long enough for train).
20:22<goodger>nah, we love you really, Sacro..
20:22*goodger pats Sacro on shoulder
20:22<goodger>...*grip tightens*
20:24<Turnskin>I'm well-knowing about George's and other's articles about n-way railways (i.e. with 2 parallel escape paths) but my aim is to
20:25<Turnskin>build the single-tread path for any quantity of trains being possible go in both direction at onñe.
20:27<Turnskin>That's why i'm cursing than they TURN. :)
20:27<Yexo>Turnskin: if you want a two railways, one for each direction, use one-way signals instead of two-way
20:27<Yexo>trains won't turn unless they have to wait really long
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20:28<Turnskin>Yexo Nope, i use this common layout, but i'm trying to make one railway for both directions!
20:29<Yexo>then don't use signals at all at that piece of track
20:29<Turnskin>Sorry it's difficult for me to exactly translate my thoughts in English :(
20:29<Yexo>than make a screenshot with what you want and your current approach
20:31<Turnskin>OK, if i will success, i nessesarily put my screenshots to somethere.
20:31<Turnskin>For all OTTD users.
20:33<Turnskin>Give me please link to some filesharing service which is aviable for you?
20:34<Yexo>you can upload images to, if you are going to make a post there anyway
20:34<Yexo>for pure image-uploading, use known services like
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20:36<Turnskin>Thanx. I know one service in Russia but not sure it's aviable for you.
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20:37<Turnskin>Get it -
20:38<Yexo>I'm sorry, but I don't get where the trains come from and where they have to go
20:38<Turnskin>Right junction there is broken, but it was exactly like left.
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20:39<Turnskin>They are moving between ending depots only.
20:39<Yexo>ah, ok
20:39<Yexo>did you try pbs signals?
20:41<Turnskin>My idea was to use a combination: Enter-Combo-Combo-Enter :) (w/o Exit signal). Thus they can go between junctions or escape to side depots.
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20:43<Yexo> this seems to work fine here
20:43<Turnskin>Yexo Nope, i dont understand this feature enough. I use common pre-signals and i'm happy.
20:44<Yexo>what you want is simply impossible with block-signals
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20:44<Turnskin>Yexo That's i'm trying to do it! :)
20:45<Turnskin>Yexo But i see in this picture signals only for 1 direction?
20:45<Yexo>yes, those are pbs signals
20:45<Yexo>normal pbs signals (like in that image) can be passed from the other side by train
20:46<Yexo>there is one simply rule to remember when using pbs signals: Only place them were trains are allowed to stop
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20:46<Yexo>as you see, I only placed two signals, and it's safe for trains to stop at both places
20:48<Turnskin>Yexo OK, it's very interesting. I must to learn PBS theory more thoroughly.
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20:49<ccfreak2k>Do any of you happen to have openal installed on a Linux box?
20:49<Turnskin>Yexo But which is the difference to build an Enter-PBS signal in one or another side of the path?
20:49<Yexo>there is no "enter-pbs" signal
20:49<Yexo>there are normal pbs signals (as you see in my image) and one-way pbs signals
20:50<ecke>i am trying to find switcher for passenger/freight in code ... i know if its on its 01 ... off 00 ...
20:50<Yexo>trains can't drive through the back of a one-way pbs signal, that's the only difference
20:50<ecke>i decoded grf file... opened nfo ....
20:51<Turnskin>Yexo So, there's no difference in case of normal pbs signal to put it in any side of the way?
20:51<Yexo>ecke: CargoSpec::is_freight
20:51<Yexo>Turnskin: I don't understand exactly what you're trying to ask, but there is a pathfinder penalty for passing a pbs signal from the 'wrong' side
20:52<Brokkoli>trains can only stop at one side
20:52<Turnskin>Yexo OK this is i would to understand.
20:52<Brokkoli>the other side there is no stopping position
20:53<Brokkoli>maybe its better to see if you activate the reserved path display
20:53<Turnskin>Brokkoli OK, became clear.
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20:54<Turnskin>4st - another interesting thing (a bug?). I use Pikka's basic industries in desert. And then i make a scenario i can build most of factories only close to towns/cities.
20:55<Brokkoli>no thats not a bug
20:55<Turnskin>But during a game in this scenario new industries are building themself in any place :(
20:55<Brokkoli>that could be a bug... ;)
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20:55<Brokkoli>have not tried
20:55<Brokkoli>maybe there are differences in the distance calculation?
20:56<Turnskin>The setting "Method of new industries building" was both "As usual" and "Geological scouting" (in translation)
20:57<Turnskin>Brokkoli The feature is the factory can be built only within 10 or 20 tiles close the town center.
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21:00<Oboroten>Sorry, net problems.
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21:01<Turnskin_>Sorry, net problems.
21:02<Turnskin_>But they build themself in huge desert (may be 100 tiles long of any town).
21:03<Brokkoli>yes that could be a bug
21:03<Brokkoli>but maybe it's allowed in the grf
21:03<Brokkoli>i don't know exactly
21:03<Turnskin_>E.g. i had to build a food-processing near a town, far from any farm. But another f-p factory appeared in more convenient place.
21:04<Turnskin_>5th - the real bug. I can't rename anything in length more than 16 or so symbols.
21:05<Brokkoli>i don't think its a bug
21:05-!-Turnskin [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:05<Brokkoli>it's a limitation ;)
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21:06<Oboroten>But e.g. station's name can be generated in more length. Then i rename it, it looks like "Upper Thesampletow?" (with ? at the end).
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21:07<Turnskin>I use Russian lang., but this situation remains for English.
21:07<Brokkoli>i think generated names are sorted differently
21:08<Turnskin>Also this remains then i open virual kbd window.
21:08<Brokkoli>but i'm not that much in these details
21:09<Turnskin>Brokkoli Look: the generated name can be "Upper Mysamplesmallandfunnytown". But then i rename it, i can write only 14 symbols.
21:10<Turnskin>Also this name wiil be shown as "Upper Mysample?"
21:10<Brokkoli>because it's stored differently
21:10<Brokkoli> /* Place to get a name from, in order of importance: */
21:10<Brokkoli> char *name; ///< Custom name
21:10<Brokkoli> IndustryType indtype; ///< Industry type to get the name from
21:10<Brokkoli> StringID string_id; ///< Default name (town area) of station
21:10<Brokkoli>look here
21:10<Turnskin>But if i cancel renaming it remains correct.
21:11<Brokkoli>because it uses the language string
21:11<Turnskin>So - is this a bug or no?
21:11<Brokkoli>whan you change the language the station name will change
21:11<Brokkoli>no bug
21:11<Turnskin>Nope, maybe you don't understand.
21:12<Turnskin>Language is not important.
21:12<Brokkoli>no not for the 16 character limit
21:13<@Rubidium>it's a designed limitation that custom names are limited to 32 bytes
21:13<Turnskin>I CAN't name anything longer than 14 chars, but it has GENERATED name as long as it needs.
21:13<Brokkoli>the generated name is stored differently.. internal
21:13<Turnskin>Rubidium Yes.
21:14<Turnskin>Rubidium So international names use Unicode?
21:14<@Rubidium>14 cyrillic chars, right?
21:14<Turnskin>2byte chars?
21:14<@Rubidium>utf8 encoding and such
21:14<Turnskin>I thought so. So i thought right. Alas!
21:16<@Rubidium>it's more a feature request to support 30 characters no matter what the size in bytes in utf8 is
21:17<Turnskin>Russian is long language and the name for real city like Komsomolsk-na-Amure together with word Perevalochnaja (feedering) will be not applicable here :(
21:17<Brokkoli>yes the limit is a bit small
21:18<Turnskin>Rubidium OK, consider my postings as feature request :)
21:18<@Rubidium>problem is that we need to limit the name in width otherwise we would need to iterate the whole map just to figure out what town/station labels need to be drawn
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21:19<Turnskin>May be make at least 20-25 chars for this limit?
21:19<@Rubidium>major problem is that we can't reliably determine the exact width of the string (different font == different width) and thus rejecting it on one and not the other makes things go haywire (desync)
21:19<Turnskin>(in UTF, i.e. 64 bytes)
21:20<Turnskin>OK, understand.
21:20<@Rubidium>which is why we limited on 31 characters (32 bytes)
21:21<Brokkoli>isnÄt it limited by the width, too?
21:22<Brokkoli>then i type "MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM"
21:22<Brokkoli>the limit is 18
21:22<@Rubidium>but later utf8 came causing strlen and friends to not return the number of visible characters
21:23<@Rubidium>Brokkoli: that's only the client side's GUI
21:23<Turnskin>All right then. I haven't more questions. Great thanks to all who helped me!
21:24<Turnskin>May be the last i would to tell is that NARS is incorrectly set for different nonstandart cargo like in Pikka's industries.
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21:24<@Rubidium>that's not our bug
21:25<Turnskin>But this problem is so usual that it's not topic to discuss :)
21:25<Turnskin>OK, good bye an lucky railroad building :)
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21:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15777 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Add: helper functions to get the least common multiple and the greatest common divisor (Alberth)
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 21 00:00:33 2009