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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-06-05

---Logopened Fri Jun 05 00:00:50 2009
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03:00<dihedral>cvs sucks
03:06<z-MaTRiX>hi why?
03:06<Alberth>there is no such thing as an ideal VCS
03:06<dihedral>no - does not mean one cannot suck more than another
03:07<dihedral>and eh... yes - i think there is such a thing as ideal - not perfect though :-P
03:07<z-MaTRiX>its opensource...
03:08<dihedral>z-MaTRiX, still sucks ^^
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03:10<Alberth>maybe you should use a different work flow (and/or VCS :p )
03:10<Alberth>z-MaTRiX: not worth the trouble, there are many alternatives that kind of work.
03:10<z-MaTRiX>sure, you can write one too
03:11<Alberth>no thank you, svn and hg are good enough for me :)
03:12<dihedral>i am converting from cvs to svn
03:13<Alberth>btw changing cvs is non-trivial, iirc the devs are heavily opposed to many changes. So much that OpenBSD started writing a new one, and svn got born.
03:13<Alberth>converting should solve some of the problems :)
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03:24<dihedral>converting IS my problem :-P
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03:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: alberth * r16519 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Add: Prevent hiding of a window titlebar behind the status bar.
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03:26<Alberth>people overestimate the value of history
03:27<planetmaker>Alberth, that was irony, was it?
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03:29<Alberth>not really, how often do you lookup a change longer ago than say, 1 month?
03:29<@Rubidium>quite often actually
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03:30<@Rubidium>although the hg/git repositories don't go further back than r<there where we went to c++> IIRC
03:31<@Rubidium>oh, that was 'only' before the svn reimport
03:33<dihedral>Alberth, it's a company - the history here is quite important ;-)
03:33<planetmaker>Alberth, quite often here, too
03:34<dihedral>after the conversion i have 25800 revs :-D
03:34<dihedral>the entire process takes me about 8 hours
03:34<dihedral>and that is just one of the projects :-P
03:34<Alberth>that's a lot of coffee :)
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03:34<planetmaker>when I try to pach things, or especially update older patches, it's THE thing to do to look through the history of what was done in order to understand the necessary modifications.
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03:40<dihedral>Alberth, it's even more when you think that i am still just preparing :-P
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03:47<Alberth>planetmaker: good to hear I don't write the commit messages for nothing :p
03:50<planetmaker>Alberth, you definitely don't. I kinda use the hg log (the web one) for regular lecture :)
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03:52<Alberth>I tend to prefer 'hg view'. Going back more than a few revisions with the hg web-interface is an art I have not yet mastered.
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03:55<Alberth>good luck with the conversion, see you all
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05:41<fonsinchen>Are those debug messages documented anywhere? What is the usual way to increase the debug level, for example for "misc"? Of course I can just set it in my code, but I guess that's not how it's intended to be done. I've been wondering about this for a long time ...
05:47<@petern>from the console
05:47<@petern>or from the command line
05:49<@petern>grrr, idiots
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06:03<Kage_Dragon>Finally got my first real patch working... Any C++ gurus want to critique it? :D
06:05<guru3>what's it a patch of?
06:05<Kage_Dragon>Filter by Trainset in the Build window
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06:08*guru3 was just curious
06:08<guru3>i'm not that great at c++, just anyline with 'guru
06:08<guru3>in it pings me
06:08*guru3 fades back into obscurity
06:08<Kage_Dragon>Not that I"m great at c++ either
06:10<guru3>i specialize in php and obscure hacks
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06:55<dihedral>Kage_Dragon, you are finished ey?
06:55<dihedral>/ TODO-> Set num_of_loaded_grfs to # of loaded GRFS
06:55<dihedral>int trainset_filter_criteria; ///< Selected Trainset filter <- you indented with 'tab'
06:56<dihedral>sorry - alligend
06:56<dihedral>empty lines should not be indented
06:57<dihedral>at all ;-)
06:58<dihedral>newgrf_names[trainset_filter_items] = "All"; <- hard coded string, use a string id instead so it's translateable
06:59<dihedral>+ for (int i = 0; i < (num_of_loaded_grfs + 3); i++){
06:59<dihedral>+ exists = false;
06:59<dihedral>+ if (this->newgrf_names[i] == grf_name){
06:59<dihedral>+ exists = true;
06:59<dihedral>+ break;
06:59<dihedral>+ }
06:59<dihedral>+ }
06:59<dihedral>you can set exists to false outside the for loop
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07:00<dihedral>+ if (trainset_filter_criteria == 0){ //No Set Filter <- move the comment above the if statement?
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07:00<dihedral>and use /* */ comments
07:01<dihedral>or move the comment inside the if block
07:01<dihedral>STR_TRAINSET_FILTER_DROPDOWN :{BLACK}{2:RAW_STRING} <- not properly aligned
07:01<dihedral> ########### For showing numbers in widgets
07:01<@petern>gah, i need a decent audio interface :S
07:01<dihedral>you dont need those two extra lines ^^
07:02<dihedral>+### Trainset Filter <- match number of # with the other comments you find in that file
07:02<dihedral>Kage_Dragon, that's all i can tell you right now :-D
07:04<Kage_Dragon>Thanks dihedral...
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause><dihedral> you can set exists to false outside the for loop <- a decent compiler should be able to figure that out on its own
07:46<dihedral>still does not mean you can be sloppy only because you have a decent compiler :-P
07:47<dihedral>else nobody would care for coding style in general :-P
07:47<dihedral>or nobody would care what kind of comments you use
07:47<dihedral>or not indenting empty lines
07:47<dihedral>the compile handles it
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07:48<Leanden>evening all
07:51<planetmaker>good night
07:51<Leanden>lol hey planet
07:52<Leanden>hows tricks?
07:53<Leanden>hows things
07:54<planetmaker>as usual :P
07:54<Leanden>busy?? :p
07:55<Leanden>which GRF sets are you working on atm?
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07:58<planetmaker>opengfx + 2cctrainset
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08:18<Leanden>*chases tumbleweed*
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08:50<fonsinchen>I'm running openttd in valgrind and I have an interesting message. It seems there is some memory management problem in the 8bpp blitter:
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08:58<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: that's odd. It would imply that 'm' is uninitialised, which would me it would be reading out of bounds of the remap 'array' which it should warn about
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08:59<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: what (New)GRFs are you using? Sounds to me that a font is using the wrong indices or so
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09:06<fonsinchen>Actually that's from cargodist and I'm using this savegame: ... I'll check the newgrfs ...
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09:16<fonsinchen>Ah, and I'm using opengfx.
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09:34<planetmaker>fonsinchen, you should update your 2cc train set :)
09:36<fonsinchen>I have various version of various trainsets there. I think it picks the version which was last used in the save game, doesn't it?
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09:36<fonsinchen>And the savegame is not mine; I'm just trying to find out why it takes 300MB of RAM.
09:40<planetmaker>fonsinchen, yes, it *should* prefer the one with the matching md5sum - I think.
09:40<planetmaker>not sure though wether it or only the grfID is stored. I guess both.
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09:43<dragonhorseboy>any of you have any suggestion on a passenger station grf? (just anything to replace that boring original single station tile) it'll be for a urban network
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, both are stored
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>i always use MB's newstations
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09:44<Eddi|zuHause>they are the most flexibly interchangable station tiles
09:44<dragonhorseboy>hm ok I'll get that ty
09:44<dragonhorseboy>any idea if there're any decent tram sets yet or everything is still in early teaser stages yet?
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>there are more than that
09:45<dragonhorseboy>(been some time I last recall trying to collect all of them to try them out for myself)
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can load as many station sets as you like
09:45<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, get egrvs from bananas
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>then you can try out different combinations
09:45<planetmaker>I usually load most station sets I do have :P
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>there should be several suitible tram grfs
09:45<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, vehicles...
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>the germanrv set looks promising
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>but the trucks are unfinished
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09:48<dragonhorseboy> this the egrv one right?
09:50<planetmaker> <-- I don't get quite why that shall be the intended behaviour
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09:52<Yexo>it's consistent: building a statino next to another fails without ctrl
09:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: good points about the fishing beach
09:54<dragonhorseboy>hmm ok so i got town buildings, some possible trams, planes, stations, new roads .. hmm .. I just need to decide which trainsets to default to :p
09:54<planetmaker>:P sorry for the comparison with a viper bay :)
09:54<dragonhorseboy>(going use lv3.5-buses for rvs anyway)
09:56<planetmaker>andythenorth, in principle, I like the idea though a lot :)
09:56<@Belugas>i don't
09:56<andythenorth>maybe in a later version
09:56<@Belugas>what idea?
09:57<planetmaker>Belugas, beach graphics in the FIRS industry set.
09:57<planetmaker>(as part of an industry - whatever it may be)
09:57<dragonhorseboy>FIRS? is that recent?
09:57<dragonhorseboy>remind me how behind I must be on grf development since a few months ago :S
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09:58<@Belugas>you're a lot behind on grf development seince a few months ago
09:58<@Belugas>i love beaches
09:59<@Belugas>even more when i can see them from the bottom of the sea
09:59<@Belugas>not THAT deep...
09:59<dragonhorseboy>at least dbsetxl still hasn't gotten any updates yet
09:59<dragonhorseboy>belugas :P
10:00<dragonhorseboy>oh that explains it.. FIRS isn't even in the ttdx sections
10:00<planetmaker>andythenorth, oh, I didn't see your final sand pit version. That looks awesome! :)
10:00<@Belugas>what? you ask for it and you complain when we give you waht you want??
10:00<@Belugas>pffff.... users...
10:01<dragonhorseboy>hm these graphics don't look bad just I think some of these buildings seem to use a bit too much land
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: the dbset is getting plenty of updates... the problem is, they don't get released
10:02<dragonhorseboy>eddi..yeah :/
10:03<dragonhorseboy>I kinda would had liked to see what kind of new rolling stock were added in for any possible v0.9 grf
10:03<dragonhorseboy>but oh well
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10:04<andythenorth>what? Users ask for much bigger industries, and then complain when we give them what they want?
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>who complained where?
10:05<dragonhorseboy>andy..not everyone play with industry:low and map:HUGE ;)
10:05<dragonhorseboy>but then go figure
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10:05<Eddi|zuHause>i'd sometimes like to have industries:even lower
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>primary industries like farms need to be plenty, mines should be plenty but concentrated, secondary industries should be sparse
10:07<@Belugas>make a grf :)
10:08<@Belugas>or a scenario
10:08<dragonhorseboy>eddi thats alak: scenario editor
10:08<dragonhorseboy>place as little or many as you please
10:09<dragonhorseboy>heh belugas seem we share the same answer :p
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>do you have any idea what amount of time is needed to fill a scenario by hand?
10:09<Ammler>doesn't ECS do that?
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>ECS is way too overloaded
10:10<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I think I do :)
10:10<planetmaker>A lot
10:10<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: ever tried to play with only one vector?
10:11<Ammler>e.g. basic only.
10:13<@Belugas>do you have any idea what amount of time is needed to think about how to do what you require without fucking up the whole industry grf base, to design a decent gui to provide necessary configuration, to actually code the whole freaking thing?
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>no, but i tried PBI and it felt way more natural
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: i'm pretty sure the stuff i said is possible to do via grf
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>PBI already modifies the primary to secondary ratio, afaik
10:15<@Belugas>yup -> [10:11] <@Belugas> make a grf :)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>and firs' survey stuff might be the way to achieve clustering of mine regions
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>but the grfs don't come overnight either ;)
10:16<dragonhorseboy>who's site was that that had the tunnel portal and rail depot replacement altogether?
10:16<andythenorth>Is it some kind of bizarre coincidence that half of our studio is looking at Kanban versus Scrum today?
10:17<andythenorth>never mind
10:18*Belugas was looking at the road, yesterday evening. Picked up his bottles of air for the weekend
10:18<@Belugas>that's the kind of evening i love!
10:18<Ammler>PBI, the grf where also serviced industries disapear, just nobody knows, why :-)
10:18<planetmaker>Ammler, it's so... realistic ;)
10:19<Ammler>hehe, Eddi|zuHause uses another word for ;-)
10:19<planetmaker>yeah :P It's safer.
10:20<dragonhorseboy>oh doh thats funny.. somehow seeing your name jogged my memory ammler :p
10:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your suggestions could be done with grf more or less. It's not even hard to code - just time consuming. But it would be a right pain in the arse to playtest and make reliable.
10:20<andythenorth>And I can forsee it might get stuck in a deadlock or something. Coding conditional logic in nfo is for the brave
10:20<Ammler>as I said, ECS does that.
10:21<Ammler>(at least, partially)
10:21<dragonhorseboy>oh no that was a different grf :/
10:22<dragonhorseboy>meh where is that silly site with the tunnels
10:24<dragonhorseboy>hm guess I'll just use the czset roads
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>is it possible you meant ameecher instead of ammler?
10:24<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: he mostly does ;-)
10:25<dragonhorseboy>heh eddi funny how memory sometimes runs together and yeah thats finally just what i was looking for :D
10:25<dragonhorseboy>hmm uk doubledeck buses too...
10:25<andythenorth>Am I going nuts or did someone have a URL to henrik kniberg somewhere above, or is my mac fucked?
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>you are most likely going nuts, but that does not necessarily exclude the other alternatives :p
10:27<dragonhorseboy>brb to download and sort out a bunch of grfs already
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10:36<dragonhorseboy>hmm any suggestion on which bridge grf sets to try?
10:36<dragonhorseboy>need to be able to comply with 240km/h trains ;)
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10:38<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, none at all?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda like the bridge renewal
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't like newbridges
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>because it has too many "designer" bridges
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10:45<@Rubidium>does it have a wooden designer bridge?
10:46<_ln>off-topicish: is there a NATO standard about beards?
10:47<dragonhorseboy> this eddi?
10:51<planetmaker>it's a nice one, yes
10:51<planetmaker>(though I'm not Eddi :P )
10:52<[wito]>_ln: I'm going to go right ahead and guess that beards are fair game, as long as your hair (or beard) doesn't touch your collar
10:52<[wito]>but that's just an educated guess
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10:54<dragonhorseboy>am I correct that you only can use one town name list at a time or can you mix two together?
10:55<planetmaker>hehe :)
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10:57<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: am I correct that you can only drink one soft drink at a time or can you mix two together?
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10:59<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: you can only drink one soft drink at a time, but when you mix them you create another soft drink which you can drink
11:00<@Rubidium>hi KUDr
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11:10<_ln>[wito]: thanks
11:11<[wito]>_ln: Like I said, that's a guess, but I think I've seen pictures of NATO officers with beards
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11:15<dragonhorseboy>urghh almost done with grfs..then to try a quick test map soon :S
11:15<bbf>hi there... are the any developers around ?
11:15<bbf>I'm coding something for OTTD, but I wanted to ask if it would be allowed to be merged into the official tree later on
11:16<Yexo>that depends on a lot of things:
11:16<Yexo>1. (most important): do we think it fits with the rest of the game
11:17<Yexo>2. Does the patch follow code style
11:17<Yexo>3. Can you convince a developer to spend time reading your patch (the larger the patch, the harder this is)
11:17<Yexo>so what are you coding?
11:17<bbf>It adds some new dependencies... so, it's kind of big
11:18<bbf>well, I really dislike the fact that some servers are running with goals (patched stuff)
11:18<Yexo>you dislike the fact that some servers run with goals or do you dislike that not all servers run with goals?
11:19<bbf>so what I'm trying to achieve is a system like that for OTTD
11:19<bbf>I dislike that fact that they have it, and that's not part of the official
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11:19<bbf>so every other server looks boring without it
11:19<Zuu>but if it become a part of the official it become okay?
11:20<bbf>and just look at the player count.... everyone hangs around there
11:20<bbf>I don't know
11:20<bbf>I think they hardcoded most stuff (guess)
11:20<Yexo>I think it's not just the fact that those servers have goals, but the fact that they have active admins
11:20<bbf>have they suggested merging their changes to the official tree ?
11:21<Yexo>the only server I can think of is kurts goalserver, and that one stopped with the release of 0.7.0
11:21<Yexo>he never released any patch, so no
11:21<bbf>there are new servers with goals now, not kurt's
11:21<Yexo>there was the "openttd hard goal" project some time ago, but their site seems to be down
11:21<bbf>well anyways
11:22<Zuu>Hasn't mega some kind of goal patch? hmm don't remember.
11:22<Yexo>wasn't that ohg?
11:22<bbf>what I'm doing is, adding the ability to script stuff on the server side
11:22<bbf>like an AI, but without a company
11:22<Zuu>I don't know was long time ago I read about it. Havn't been around the last one or two months much.
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11:23<bbf>initially I wanted to keep Squirrel as the language, but for now, I just decided to do it in LUA
11:24<bbf>I'm still crawling thru the ottd source code to find the best spots to hook it
11:24<bbf>but I can already execute simple scripts
11:24<bbf>would that be a good addition to the official tree ?
11:25<Zuu>Now I'm not Yexo but I guess it would increase the merge chances if you are able ot use squirrel for it. Any specific reasons for not using Squirrel?
11:25<Yexo>that's indeed correct
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11:25<bbf>yeah, I thought so
11:25<Yexo>I (personally, no idea about other devs) don't like the idea of adding another scripting language
11:25<bbf>but it was a matter of personal preference, and because it's easier to do the bindings
11:25<Yexo>as long as it's completely optional, it may still have a chance though
11:26<Yexo>bbf: did you look at how NoAI does the bindings?
11:26<bbf>yeah, I did
11:26<Yexo>they're generated automatically from the header files
11:27<Zuu>Allthough the binaries compiled by the OpenTTD server probably will have it included and then have a perhaps 10-20% increase in compile time.
11:27<Zuu>Squirrel added a 30% or so I recall.
11:27<+glx>including many bugs
11:27<Yexo>it was not squirrel, more all the noai code (the complete api is a lot of code)
11:27<bbf>is there any reason why you guys choose Squirrel instead of the other scripting languages ?
11:28<Yexo>of course
11:28<bbf>well, ofc there's a reason
11:28<+glx>looks a lot like C/C++
11:28<Yexo>we wanted class support, and I think squirrel was the only one at that time with proper support for classes (and other functionality we needed)
11:29<Yexo>but I wasn't here when the choice was made, so glx may have a better answer
11:29<bbf>well, I like LUA because it's really mature already... it has been used in a lot of other games...
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11:29<bbf>and lot of people already know how to code in it
11:29<bbf>also because it's really fast
11:31<bbf>well... I'm coding this feature like this... and I'll provide the changes if you guys are interested
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>if you really learned how to program, the language does not matter
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>the features and the libraries matter
11:32<+glx>Squirrel is inspired by languages like Python,Javascript and expecially Lua(The API is very similar and the table code is based on the Lua one)
11:32<+glx>if you know lua you know squirrel :)
11:32<bbf>glx> I haven't really played that much with Squirrel
11:33<Yexo><bbf> but I can already execute simple scripts <- can you upload a patch somewhere so we can see how much new code is needed for lua?
11:34<bbf>well... the code is pretty small... the dependencies are not
11:34<Yexo>just the diff without lua then :p
11:34<+glx>we try to reduce external dependencies
11:34<Eddi|zuHause><_ln> off-topicish: is there a NATO standard about beards? <- the standards i learned were "have a full beard, or shave every day, grow beards only during holidays" and "it may not interfere with the operation of a gas mask"
11:34<bbf>since I wanted it to be fast to prototype, I used: Lua, LuaBind, and LuaBind requires Boost
11:35<+glx>boost is very huge
11:35<bbf>yup, I knew you guyst wouldn't like that :)
11:35<+glx>and think about msvc users
11:35<bbf>I'm on msvc
11:36<bbf>but the latest
11:36<bbf>so it doesn't freakout on the templates
11:36<+glx>many have already problems to follow the steps to compile current code
11:36<+glx>even when we provide required libs in a package
11:37<bbf>btw, do you have any developers that are using msvc and working with the AI ?
11:37<Yexo>I am :)
11:37<bbf>oh great :)
11:38<bbf>do you use MSYS or smth to update the bindings ?
11:38<Yexo>but then I have a cygwin installation which I use for svn/running the squirrel_export scripts
11:38<bbf>aha :)
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really understand the reasons to introduce another scripting language when there already is one...
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>unless you replace the existing one with anotherone which provides backwards compatibility
11:39<Yexo>which would be a very good idea, since squirrel has many bugs ;)
11:40<+glx>bbf: I never ported squirrel_export to vbs :)
11:40<bbf>as I said, I only did it in LUA because I know it's good, and I could do it fast
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11:40<bbf>it took me 3 hours to get to the current state
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11:41<Yexo>bbf: again, if you can show us a diff we can see how much work it would be to convert to squirrel, and how intrusive your code is
11:41<bbf>sure, just a sec
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: but didn't TrueBrain intend to do that with NAIL?
11:42<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: yes :)
11:42<Yexo>but NAIL is "another scripting language" that "provides backwards compatibility", so it falls in your description :)
11:43<+glx>IIRC lua doesn't have classes
11:43<Yexo>and it has a different syntax
11:43<Yexo>which at this point is important
11:43<bbf>yeah, it much more simple
11:43<+glx>AI needs classes
11:43<bbf>it has objects tho
11:44<+glx>(either for internal work)
11:44<Zuu>But would give me and other AI writers lot of work to convert the code for Lua.
11:44<Zuu>(AI code)
11:44<Yexo>Zuu: that's why we won't switch unless the new language is at least mostly compatible
11:44<bbf>hey... I'm not suggesting we replace the current AI :) don't raise the pitchforks yet
11:44<Zuu>Yexo: I know you wouldn't just to tell bbf. :)
11:44*Chruker semi-lowers his
11:45<Yexo>Chruker: you got aquaducts to work with your AI?
11:46<Chruker>current bug is building the aquaduct over the goal tile :-)
11:48<bbf>well, this code is hacked up together:
11:48<bbf>it's very simple, and just exports the "error" function
11:49<bbf>and as you can notice, I copied and modified existing files
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11:54*bbf stares at Chruker, as he suggests we drop Squirrel completly
11:55<Yexo>bbf: <- a patch to be able to make a map generator in squirrel. It's way too slow, but you can see how to use the squirrel system
11:55<Yexo>just rename mapgen to goals and you should have most of the code ready
11:58<bbf>hmm... this script is interesting for something else I wanted to aswell
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11:59<bbf>is it gonna be merged in the trunk ?
11:59<Yexo>no, because it's way too slow for map generation
11:59<Yexo>13 seconds for a 512x512 map iirc
11:59<bbf>but since it's optional, why not ?
12:00<bbf>you can switch between Original, TerraGenesis and Script right ?
12:00<Yexo>because it'll give bug reports "openttd hangs" when people try to generate big maps
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12:01<bbf>what about warning the user when it's selected: "Warning: What you are trying to do is gonna hang the game for a long time, you better get some popcorn while you are at it."
12:02<bbf>or why not merge it, and only enable it with #ifdefs ? ./configure --enable-squirrel-mapgen
12:03<Yexo>what's the point of merging if it's not compiled by default?
12:03<bbf>sorry, I'm not trying to change the the way the project is being handled, I just wanna understand how it's being handled
12:04<Yexo>ok, no problem, the reasons that patch is not included are:
12:04<bbf>because some people, like me, would love to have stuff like that when running servers
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12:04<Yexo>1. It needs a new window to set seperate settings per map generator script
12:04<Yexo>(and I dislike creating guis)
12:05<Yexo>2. The code needs more cleanup, the functions from mg_run.cpp should be split to some other files
12:06<Yexo>3. the few people I've send that patch (the ones most likely to create a new script) never gave much response
12:06<Yexo>4. it's slow (not a huge problem)
12:06<Eddi|zuHause><bbf> what about warning the user when it's selected: "Warning: What you are trying to do is gonna hang the game for a long time, you better get some popcorn while you are at it." <- people ignore the current "if you change newgrfs, your computer is gonna blow up" message, either
12:07<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: because it doesn't reliably blow up
12:07<bbf>I agree with wito
12:07<xahodo>Why not 2 sepparate progress bars, one for the current stage and one for the overall status?
12:08<[wito]>adding newgrfs, for example, almost always works
12:08<xahodo>That could help the scripted map generator with informing the player about how far it is.
12:08<[wito]>except for train sets
12:08<Yexo>xahodo: that's require the map generator script to tell openttd how far it is
12:09<Yexo>which is possible, but adds mroe code to those scripts
12:09<welshdragon>more code + bad thing?
12:09<bbf>and it'll depend on how good the script code is
12:09<xahodo>At least the player then knows how far the script is,
12:09<Yexo>welshdragon: if the same can be done with less (and equally readable) code, yes
12:09<bbf>do you trust progress bars when installing software ? :)
12:10<Yexo>yes, I trust them to take as long for 99% and 100% as for the rest of the bar
12:10<xahodo>I don't get progress bars when installing software...
12:11<bbf>it's really hard to estimate how much the script will take depending on the script
12:11<bbf>and I think this whole sq mapgen stuff would be great with dedicated servers only
12:11<xahodo>Then let the script handle increasing the progress bars.
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12:13<bbf>ooh... btw, how does the game scale when you increase the number of companies in the game ?
12:13<Yexo>just increasing the number of companies does as good as nothing
12:13<Yexo>it's more the total number of vehicles
12:13<bbf>why is it currently set to 15, and not 30 for example ?
12:14<bbf>so, if we have 200 companies, but with less vehicles per company, that would be ok ?
12:14<Yexo>because several variables are 16 bit and need a bitmask of the companies
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12:14<Yexo>so it's not easy to increase it to more then 15
12:14<bbf>that was the answer I was looking for
12:14<Hirundo>And some places in the map array (roads) cannot handle more than 16 - 1 companies currently
12:14<Yexo>it's also stored in the map array, and that's full
12:18<+glx>and number fo comany colors is limited too
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12:21<Chruker>Wishlist for a new scripting system: 1) Multithreading, 2) Ability to follow (stepping) execution through the script
12:22<Yexo>Chruker: completely agree with 2)
12:22<Yexo>do you mean multithreading within your script, or running several AIs at the same time?
12:23<+glx>we tried threaded AIs, it caused more problems than it solved
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12:23<Chruker>Mainly one AI per thread
12:24<Yexo>that causes way too much trouble to be worth the time
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12:25<Chruker>I guess I'm assuming that the AI would work just like a client connected to a server, but if the AI code doesnt allow that kind of seperation I see the problem :-)
12:25<Yexo>it doesn't work like that
12:25<bbf>you wanted an asynch AI
12:25<Yexo>though it should be easy to create a client that runs an AI
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>such a client would still have to calculate the game state, like any multiplayer client
12:31<Yexo>of course, but it could be run on a different computer
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12:48<Aali>in fact, I used to have a patch that would allow you to run an AI on a client
12:48<Aali>without patching the server
12:48<Aali>major fun pre-noAI merge
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13:37<CIA-3>OpenTTD: yexo * r16520 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_bridge.cpp: -Fix [NoAI]: Make sure AIBridge::BuildBridge returns what the documentation says it does (r16244 for AIBridge)
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13:53<bbf>how do releases get packaged ? are the tags for releases copied directly from the main trunk, or do they come from a branch ?
13:54<+glx>from branch
13:54<bbf>and then when something is considered mature, it's backported from the trunk to the branch ?
13:55<+glx>only bugfixes are backported
13:55<bbf>when does the trunk become the current branch then ?
13:56<+glx>branch is created when we think it's time to make it :)
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13:56<bbf>because, that mapgen patch uses files that are in script/* in trunk, but I don't see them currently even on 7.1-RC3
13:57<+glx>all branches are based on trunk
13:58<bbf>so at some point 7.1 came directly from trunk, right ?
13:58<+glx>7.1 will be from 0.7
13:58<+glx>trunk will become 0.8
13:58<Yexo>bbf: somewhere before 0.7-RC1 a new branch was created for 0.7
13:59<Yexo>all new development remains in trunk, and bugfixes are backported to that new branch
13:59<Yexo>after some time, 0.7.0-RC1 was released, bugs where found, fixed in trunk and backported again
13:59<bbf>so, if I wanna use that mapgen code on a server that is compatible with the current stable release, I'll have to backport some of the changes from trunk
14:00<Yexo>r15736 to be exact
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14:01<Yexo>should be trivial, since 0.7 was split of at r15734
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14:11<Chruker>Is the way the openttd project uses tags, branches and trunk the 'standar' way version control systems are used?
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14:12<bbf>using SVN is more like a coding convention
14:13<bbf>even tags and branches are not a standard by svn itself
14:13<blathijs>Chruker: Yeah, it is the most commonly used layout
14:13<blathijs>Chruker: You could take a look at the svnbook, IIRC this convention is proposed there
14:13<Xaroth>Chruker: there are no 'standards', just common-used stuff
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14:14<Chruker>that was why I put the word standard in the '' :-) However most of the sites where I've read about it, seems to keep trunk as the latest 'stable' and then all development are done in branches.
14:16<frosch123>there is a difference between a "release branch" and a "development branch" for experimental stuff :)
14:16<Xaroth>People usually use Trunk for the 'latest working version'
14:16<Yexo>Chruker: lots of 'big' patches for openttd are codes in a branch first, see for example
14:16<Xaroth>in this case, it's just the latest version
14:17<Xaroth>and i'm sure the devs don't just randomly commit crap if they aren't sure it's going to work :P
14:17<frosch123>some also fix bugs reported for the stables first in the stable branch, and then sync trunk with the release branch. but imo that screws up history
14:20<@Belugas>[14:20] <Xaroth> and i'm sure the devs don't just randomly commit crap if they aren't sure it's going to work :P <--- that is... mmh... a leap of faith... you never know it's going ot work 100% of the time
14:20<@Belugas>bogus bogus
14:20<@Belugas>sometimes, it's nt even tested, for a lack of test cases
14:20<blathijs>_Most_ of the time, there will be at least _some_ testing before committing :-p
14:21<@Belugas>sometimes, it's not even compiled
14:21<@Belugas>yeah, MOST of the time ;)
14:21*Belugas heads down to work
14:21<Chruker>Ex: '<glx> 0.7.1 will be from 0.7' that make it sounds like a tag turning into a branch
14:21<@Belugas>the other way around
14:21<@Belugas>it's a tag on a branch
14:22<Yexo>0.7 is a branch, 0.7.1 will be a tag on that branch
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14:22<frosch123>Chruker: <- there is a 0.7 branch with 0.7.0 RC1..RC2, 0.7.0, 0.7.0 RC1..RC3 refering to it
14:23<frosch123>the latter are tags
14:23<frosch123>under "branches" you will also find two abandoned development branches :)
14:25<Noldo>only two?
14:26<Yexo>some others were removed
14:28<Chruker>It just seems to me that the location of the latest stable-ish version moves from trunk to ex. the 0.7 branch
14:29<Yexo>the latest stable is never trunk
14:29<Chruker>Or does ALL 0.7 relevant bugfixes get ported from trunk to 0.7 branch until you decide to go to 0.8 branch?
14:29<Yexo>all bugs fixed in trunk are backported to the latest stable branch (0.7 currently)
14:29<Yexo>Chruker: yes
14:29<Chruker>I think that was the missing link
14:29<Yexo>and in the meantime new features are introduced in trunk which can introduce new bugs
14:29<Yexo>ok :0
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14:30<frosch123>sometimes we also backport some of the new bugs :p
14:31<Yexo>like r16502?
14:31<Yexo>I'm very happy Rubidium ran the regression test before releasing 0.7.1-RC3 :)
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14:32<frosch123>or r16478, I guess there are a lot :)
14:33<frosch123>hmm, or was that before branching, cannot remember
14:35<fonsinchen>Nice, the build system is fixed. Dependency resolution when switching between git branches seems to work fine now.
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14:36<frosch123>since r16307 :)
14:37<fonsinchen>Oh, it seems I haven't tried without the usual "make clean && make" for a long time.
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14:39<DJNekkid>question to any newgrf expert: is it possible to refrence a var2 "extra callback info" in another "extra callback info"
14:39*frosch123 does not understand the question
14:39<DJNekkid>tbh, me either when i think harder on it
14:41<DJNekkid>clue is, i want a CB 36'es property to be adjustable on some kind of variable...
14:41<Lakie>Sounds messy
14:42<frosch123>which property shall depend on which variable?
14:42<DJNekkid>so if i "10" two kinds, with <value+80>, and do that thru some kind of other variable, and refrerance that in the "main" '10'
14:42<DJNekkid>frosch123: i've forgotten in all this thinking :)
14:42<DJNekkid>running cost
14:43<DJNekkid>based on running speed
14:44<frosch123>so you want to use the speed (as defined by cb 36) in the cb 36 to define the running cost?
14:45<frosch123>or do you want to use the current speed of the vehicle for the running cost?
14:45-!-thingwath [] has quit [Quit: It's all over.]
14:47<DJNekkid>doh, bleh!
14:49<frosch123>well, in the former case you could use a "function call" to share the chains, in the latter - well - there are some sets doing that
14:49<DJNekkid>now that should work!
14:49<DJNekkid>variable B4 is runspeed btw
14:49<Lakie>I think Pikka does similar to what you want.
14:50<DJNekkid>the cID CB might need to be an 82 btw
14:50<DJNekkid>i've done something _similar_ in the 2cc st
14:50<DJNekkid>just way more code...
14:50<DJNekkid>two CB36'es
14:50<DJNekkid>changed inbetween the runspeed
14:50<DJNekkid>jeesus, my english suck!
14:51<DJNekkid>"if runspeed = 0, use one cb36, else use other cb36"
14:52<frosch123>hmm, is there still some open question?
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14:55<DJNekkid>i dont think so ... and i woul think that the paste i did there would work...
14:55<DJNekkid>sometimes one just need to air ones thouts i think :)
14:56<DJNekkid>and my wife is talkin on the phone :p
14:57<DJNekkid>Lakie: did the animation code work btw?
14:57<Lakie>Haven't had achance to try it, renum keeps failing to compile (cygwin error though)
14:57<fonsinchen>Why does NFO have such a sick syntax? Wouldn't it be possible to alias every meaningful block of hex code with either a human readable keyword or a human readable number, perhaps add some braces and then just run a very simple string replacing compiler on that to get the originial NFO syntax? That would be very helpful for people like me who can't read hex like a book. Maybe I should try something like this.
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14:58<Aali>fonsinchen: its called preprocessing, and people have already done it :)
14:59<frosch123>multiple people have done it :) but noone seems to use any of those
15:00<fonsinchen>Oh, do you have a link?
15:00<fonsinchen>Why does no one use the preprocessors?
15:01<Aali>because it doesn't actually make things easier since everyone and everything else works with (more or less) raw nfo?
15:02<frosch123>fonsinchen: because everyone of them uses a different weird script language which no windows noob can use
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15:05<frosch123>fonsinchen: <- there is my approch that deals with action2 chains. it is for Gnu R :p Most others dealt with action 0. Eddi|zuHause had some thingie that dealt with action 0, 1,2,3 or so
15:07<fonsinchen>The preprocessor should work in both ways: compile and decompile nfo seemlessly. Then incompatibility between stuff written in raw nfo and symbolic nfo wouldn't be an issue.
15:08<frosch123>some of them can also deal with that, but imo grf->nfo is hardly useful, as you won't understand the grf anyway
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15:09<planetmaker>Lakie: I have compiled a recent renum version which works without cygwin support
15:09<Lakie>Could I have a copy, if you don't mind.
15:09<planetmaker>I attached it in the renum thread
15:09<fonsinchen>If you could decompile NFO into some symbolic representation you'd at least have more of a chance of understanding it.
15:09<planetmaker>of course, I don't mind :)
15:09<Lakie>Usually I'd build my own, but cygwin refuses to find the boost files
15:09<frosch123>fonsinchen: you know grf2html ?
15:09<planetmaker> <- or grab it there
15:09<fonsinchen>but the result is not editable.
15:10<frosch123>no :)
15:10<fonsinchen>that's a drawback.
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15:12<Lakie>Thanks, planetmaker
15:12<planetmaker>no worries. My pleasure
15:13<planetmaker>does it work for you?
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15:14<Lakie>Appears to
15:14<planetmaker>Btw Lakie: I made good experience with just using MinGW and MSys. without any cygwin things required
15:14<planetmaker>that's how I built it.
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15:14<Lakie>MinGW works pretty nicely
15:14<planetmaker>nice, good to know it works for others, too and not just for me :)
15:14<Lakie>Not sure about MSys though
15:15<planetmaker>well. If everything you need works - don't change it :)
15:15<Lakie>Except with mingw, I've always had issues with gdb
15:15<planetmaker>I didn't use that so far under windows.
15:16<Lakie>Hehe, fair enough
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15:49<Ammler>hmm, is there a function to delete the old bananas grfs?
15:51<Yexo>and that's by design
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15:52<Yexo>terms of service: 4. You grant the OpenTTD team to retain older versions of your content for the purpose of loading savegame with said older version.
15:53<planetmaker>Yexo: I think it was meant as locally.
15:53<planetmaker>Not on the server
15:54<planetmaker>^^ Ammler?
15:54<planetmaker>of course there's the rm function ;)
15:54<Yexo>ah, ok :)
15:55<planetmaker>on the server it doesn't make sense indeed
15:56<Ammler:#openttd>yes, I meant something to automatically clean the server
15:56<Ammler:#openttd>(openttd server)
15:57<Ammler:#openttd>and i agree you keeping old grfs on bananas, that is completely fine ;-)
15:58<Yexo:#openttd>the main problem is that a client (I assume your server is a game-server, so a bananas-client) has no idea whether or not a newgrf is outdated
16:00<Ammler:#openttd>rm * and redownload might be the easiest
---Logclosed Fri Jun 05 16:01:04 2009
---Logopened Fri Jun 05 16:01:57 2009
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16:05<Ammler>Yexo: why not, you can update grfs, so it should be possible?
16:05<Yexo>Ammler: uploading is possible because the bananas server tells what the new versions are
16:05<Ammler>well, it needs first connecting to server, but would be less traffic then redownload everything.
16:07<Ammler>for server, it is important to delete old files, as they are loaded randomly.
16:08<Yexo>ah, I see the problem now
16:09<Ammler>I am wondering, nobody thought about version info in newgrfs earlier ;-)
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16:30<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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16:46<@Belugas>Ammler: <--- version
16:48<Ammler>Belugas: but you don't mean GRFID?
16:48<Ammler>as you change that only, if it isn't compatible anymore.
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16:50<@Belugas>[16:13] <Ammler> I am wondering, nobody thought about version info in newgrfs earlier ;-)
16:50<@Belugas>use it properly or not
16:50<@Belugas>i mean...
16:50<@Belugas>that's waht it's used for :S
16:51<@Belugas>unless yu need a version of a version in a version for a version :S
16:51<Ammler>no, it isn't
16:51<Ammler>you don't change grfid for version
16:51<@Belugas>wel... you should
16:51<Ammler>and i.e. george doesn't use it anyway,
16:52<Ammler>no, you mustn't!
16:52<@Belugas>does not mean that if he throws himself over a bridge you should follow
16:54<Ammler>would you change the GRFID, if you have to fix a alignment?
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17:00<@Belugas>technically, yes
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17:00<@Belugas>everytime you recompile for distribution, you should
17:00<@Belugas>if foryourself, no
17:01<@Belugas>if for the outside world, a recompile would require a new version
17:01<@Belugas>no matter what
17:01<@Belugas>otherwise... well...
17:01<planetmaker>Belugas: how do you indicate then, that the grfs are compatible?
17:01<planetmaker>they are compatible. Just a bit changed graphics etc. No changes with IDs.
17:01<planetmaker>that doesn't make sense IMO
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17:02<andythenorth>me neither.
17:02<@Belugas>not the point of compatibilty
17:02<planetmaker>grfID should indicate incompatible things like ISR 8.0 and 7.1
17:02<andythenorth>right now I am doing a minor version change on HEQS. it's a bug fix. If change the grfid I break all saved games.
17:02<andythenorth>that's not good. even if it's correct
17:02<@Belugas>you CHANGED something, you RECOMPILED something, yu change version
17:03<@Belugas>that's how i see it
17:03<@Belugas>that's what i do at work
17:03<@Belugas>that's what Ottd does too
17:03<planetmaker>yes. But OpenTTD also maintains compatibility.
17:03<planetmaker>newgrfs cannot do that, if they change version
17:04<planetmaker>well it works for base grfs. why not newgrfs?
17:05<andythenorth>I change something. I change version. I break saved games. Users are pissed off. How is that helping? :)
17:06<planetmaker>andythenorth: technically you're not breaking savegames. They just have to keep playing with the old one in old games. But nevertheless...
17:06<planetmaker>if it's wrong to use the same GRFID but different MD5 sum... why accept that at all?
17:07<andythenorth>I may be talking out of my arse, but the grfid schema doesn't *look* like a version key. It looks like a grf key to allow grfs to check for the presence of other grfs. I wasn't there when it was invented, but the uses I've *seen* and the documentation I've *seen* indicate that is one of its functions??
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17:08<planetmaker>it's a machine readable name by documentation
17:09*Belugas turns back to tis duties
17:10<Nite_Owl>What if the GRFID stays the same but you change the file name to coincide with the version released
17:10<planetmaker>Nite_Owl: the filename is irrelevant afaik
17:11<Nite_Owl>true but it does give you an idea of the grf's progression
17:11<planetmaker>the point is that openttd filters, if the grfID is the same
17:12<planetmaker>and gives you a random file out of those with the same grfID.
17:12<planetmaker>not the newest, not the oldest, just some
17:12<planetmaker>IF they're all in tars w/o directories.
17:12<planetmaker>and a server may select any
17:13<andythenorth>can we fix this grfid business in any easy way? :)
17:13<planetmaker>well. It helps to pack things in an archive in a sub-directory.
17:14<planetmaker>then they're considered seperate files
17:17<Nite_Owl>I do not use bananas that much for these exact reasons - plus I have my own directory structure where I like to store grfs
17:18<planetmaker>well. bananas works like a charm IMO in that respect. It's easy to use to stay up2date with those grfs.
17:19<Nite_Owl>I do seem to remember being able to extract files from the tars though and move them around as much as I might like
17:19<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r16521 /trunk/src/yapf/follow_track.hpp: -Fix [FS#2946] (r13945): Do not access 'compatible_railtypes' for road vehicles. (causing invalid reads since r16391/16392)
17:25<Nite_Owl>and for those grf makers that do not rename their files with a version number I usually do that for the sake of my own sanity anyway
17:26<Ammler>Nite_Owl: that is something you shouldn't do without grfid change
17:26<Ammler>just think about newgrf presets
17:28<Nite_Owl>I only do it so I can remember if I have the latest version of the grf or not
17:28<Yexo>Ammler: it doesn't matter if you do that as soon as you download something
17:28<Ammler>ah, for your local grfs?
17:28<Ammler>Yexo: ?
17:28<Yexo><Ammler> Nite_Owl: that is something you shouldn't do without grfid change <- that
17:29<Ammler>yeah, I thought, he renames grf file for release
17:30<Nite_Owl>no - just personal use
17:31<Ammler>well, I do that too (the old gfs), also for the grfpack
17:31<Ammler>there are around 4 different ISR versions in the coop pack :-)
17:35<Nite_Owl>Speaking of which has anyone heard from mart3p recently?
17:37<andythenorth>yes, he's busy ;)
17:37<andythenorth>I think he's either buried with 'real' work. or out of the country.
17:38<frosch123>Last visited: Tue May 26, 2009 5:57 pm <- :o
17:38<frosch123>no totally lost :)
17:40<Nite_Owl>I still owe him some feedback from late last year but I will await his non-busyness
17:40<andythenorth>don't take my word for it, he may pop up all eager to code :)
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17:40<andythenorth>I usually get him on forum PMs
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17:42<Nite_Owl>Once he returns to a more 'normal' schedule of appearances I will contact him
17:43<Lakie>planetmaker: tested it properly now, seems to work fine, thanks
17:44<planetmaker>good to hear :) You're welcome.
17:44<Lakie>Now I have to update the xls file before I can use it to start coding, lol
17:46<Ammler>the cargo tiny?
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18:01<@Belugas>bretzels and coffee
18:01<@Belugas>not the best mix
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>brezels and coffee? why not put salt in your coffee directly?
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18:28<bbf>Yexo, something that the mapgen needs is more math functions
18:28<bbf>like sqrt
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18:28<Yexo>bbf: you might have noticed that patch is nearly 2 months old
18:29<Yexo>feel free to update it, add things etc.
18:29<Yexo>but don't except too much time from me
18:29<bbf>I don't expect it
18:29<bbf>but you said you didn't have any feedback from it
18:29<bbf>I'm just giving you feedback :)
18:30<Yexo>well, ok :)
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20:25<@Belugas>sqrt? doesn't that returns afloat or a double?
20:26<@Belugas>granted, mapgen does not operates under the networking laws of no-desynch-good-behaviours
20:26<@Belugas>fuck i'm tired..
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20:38<Yexo>a float, since it's squirrel
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's pretty straight forward to create an integer-sqrt
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>while(value of x changed) { x = (x+a/x)/2; } IIRC
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>where a is the number you want to get the root of
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>(this is called "heron's method" or "babylonin method", it's a special case of a newton iteration)
20:57<@Belugas>glad to meet you, Herr Professor ;)
20:57<@Belugas>and no, i'm not sarcastic
20:57<@Belugas>and yes, it's interesting
20:57<@Belugas>and yes i'm still in that dreadful place called office
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>at 9 in the evening, on friday?
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>you poor soul
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21:09<@Belugas>a man's got to do what his boss asks
21:10<@Belugas>a boss who is still working, too...
21:10<@Belugas>so it eases a bit the pain
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21:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: yexo * r16522 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2962]: possible assert in ai debug window when an AI was stopped an a human company took it's CompanyID
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22:20<@Belugas>he ben... looks like i'm not the only one doing over time...
22:20<@Belugas>but now, it's time for me to go to sleep
22:20<@Belugas>at last!!
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>good night
22:29<@Belugas>thanks, you too
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