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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-06-19

---Logopened Fri Jun 19 00:00:52 2009
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00:34<DeGhost>and with a not gate
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01:47<_ln>you're right
01:49<dihedral>SX is funny "backed up with the experience of knowing what can and can't be done with the current code."
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03:12<reldred>I am hereby invoking the law of POETS day
03:13*reldred packs his shizzle up
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03:26<@petern>a bit early for that yet :)
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05:25<@Rubidium>I have to say
05:25<@Rubidium>that this day
05:25<@Rubidium>I don't care about poets day
05:25<@Rubidium>got to go anyway
05:25<reldred>I didn't really get to piss off early, anyway.
05:25<SmatZ>oh nice
05:26<@Rubidium>now way
05:26<@Rubidium>SmatZ ruined poets day
05:27<planetmaker>that's easy to claim and say,
05:27<planetmaker>but surely there's still a way
05:27<planetmaker>to keep up the pretence
05:27<planetmaker>and still make some kind of sense
05:27-!-mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by DorpsGek
05:27-!-mode/#openttd [-o SmatZ] by SmatZ
05:27<SmatZ>hmm how can I devoice myself :-x
05:28<SmatZ>ah I don't have voice
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06:58<_ln>i has a patch
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06:59<_ln>please consider applying it. it's short.
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07:03<rortom>big patch is big ;)
07:03<@petern>you should submit it to the tracker
07:03<@petern>then we can review it
07:03<rortom>hi petern :D
07:03<@petern>see if it meets quality standards and code style
07:04<@petern>maybe we can split it up a bit, so it's not so big
07:08<planetmaker>hehe. Big patch ;)
07:13<rortom>you have problems ...
07:13<rortom>our devs provide patches that break have the game
07:13<rortom>and then harass me why they are not merged ASAP or they will stop providing patches :(
07:13<rortom>(after i spend 2 hours trying to fix the rough bugs)
07:13<@petern>see if it meets quality standards and code style
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07:14<rortom>well, nearly no >5 lines patch that i merged so far met them :(
07:17<rortom>i guess we just have not enough developers so far :(
07:17<rortom>also, we are in the top10 of the SF community choice awards :D
07:18<SmatZ>congratulations :)
07:19<rortom>thanks :)
07:20<Ammler>he, did something change, since it is opensource?
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07:21<rortom>yes, we went GPL in february :)
07:22<@petern>SmatZ, you'd like the IEEE 754 hacks that are used ;)
07:23<SmatZ>petern: mmm :) I should have a look ;)
07:23<@petern>approxmath.h, heh
07:23<rortom>oh, that reminds me of a ticket i need to merge :/
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07:26<@petern>SmatZ, approximate floating pointing functions that are somewhat faster
07:26<@petern>just, you have to hope that every system uses IEEE 754 floating point, otherwise it won't work
07:27<@petern>i'm sure rortom checked that's the case ;)
07:28<SmatZ>it seems C specifies IEEE standard used for floats
07:29<SmatZ>— The float type matches the IEC 60559 single format.
07:29<SmatZ>and IEC 60559 seems to be based on IEEE 754
07:32<SmatZ>:-) @ approx_* :-)
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07:37<rortom>petern: if someone complains that his platform does not support this, he can contribute a patch that does not sue this ;)
07:37<rortom>i find this one interesting:
07:37<rortom>its rather hackish IMHO
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07:45<rortom>who would install opensuse on a server? D:
07:46<_ln>since when is Mac OS X 10.5 the minimum requirement for compiling OTTD?
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07:48<@Rubidium>someone who gets paid to do so?
07:49<_ln>i'm referring to your commit r16294.
07:51<_ln>@commit 16294
07:51<@DorpsGek>_ln: Commit by rubidium :: r16294 trunk/config.lib (2009-05-13 12:57:17 UTC)
07:51<@DorpsGek>_ln: -Fix-ish [FS#2894]: check for a recent enough (supported) version of the XCode SDK, i.e. 2.5 or higher. Older XCode SDKs miss constants used by OpenTTD.
07:52<@petern>_ln, then you answered your question ;)
07:53<@Rubidium>rortom: why would you need opensuse anyway?
07:53<_ln>i can give you the exact timestamp too, it's 2009-05-13 15:57:17 CET.
07:53<_ln>petern: but the commit message doesn't indicate that the *intention* of that commit was to set 10.5 to minimum.
07:54<@petern>it's not the intention
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07:57<_ln>so then it must be something that Rubidium has messed with.
07:57<Booth>hello all
07:58<@Rubidium>hi Booth
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08:08<_ln>someone tell Rubidium not to commit "fixes" that break more things than they fix.
08:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16599 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix [FS#2987] (r16584): reset the 'current' font size after drawing, this way we won't draw other strings too small; only caused problems when tiny/big text strings would use SETX.
08:14*Rubidium really wonders what makes el_en think that checking for the 2.5 SDK means that you need at least version 10.5 of OSX
08:20<fonsinchen>That fix was because of me complaining that you can't compile OpenTTD with XCode 2.0.
08:21<fonsinchen>I had to define some system variables manually as they aren't present there.
08:22<_ln>Rubidium: because I have Xcode 2.5 installed and OTTD's configure tells me to install XCode >= 2.5.
08:22<@Rubidium>oh, maybe it's the checking whether the macro that defines what numeric version 10.5 has is available. Given the FACT that the 2.5 10.4u SDK defines that macro it should be available for people that want to compile on 10.4, especially because XCode 2.5 is supported on 10.4
08:23<_ln>Rubidium: and the check is done with #if !defined(MAC_OS_X_VERSION_10_5), and changing it to 10_4 fixes the situation.
08:25<_ln>Rubidium: why not do the check by trying to compile something that actually tries to use the required system variables, or checking the actual Xcode version?
08:25<@Rubidium>checking for 10_4 isn't enough; 2.0 defines 10_4 and that doesn't compile
08:25<@Rubidium>but it seems you have a better way to reliably check for xcode 2.5
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08:26<@Rubidium>in a cross-platform manner
08:26<@petern>why not use a system that isn't shit?
08:27<_ln>Rubidium: why not do the check by trying to compile something that actually tries to use the required system variables?
08:27<planetmaker>_ln, then do - for you locally - a revert of that commit and it may work
08:27<planetmaker>it does for me.
08:28<@Rubidium>though the real question is: why does it work for "our", that is TrueBrain's and my, cross compiler and not for your one?
08:28<_ln>planetmaker: if all i cared was making it work for just me, i wouldn't have bothered to say anything here. i already found the workaround before i said anything.
08:29<planetmaker>then you should make a proposal (patch) which will fix it.
08:29<_ln>Rubidium: i'm not using a cross-compiler. is using a cross-compiler a requirement too nowadays?
08:29<planetmaker>in an appropriate manner
08:30<planetmaker>if I knew a solution - I'd have posted it to flyspray
08:30<_ln>Rubidium: in other words, i just typed "./configure" on a 10.4 system that has Xcode 2.5 installed in the default location.
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08:33<@Rubidium>guess I should change the 2.5 to 3.0 and be done with it; that's the easiest solution for me
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08:35<_ln>Rubidium: while you're at it, Xcode is spelled with only one capital letter.
08:35<fonsinchen>You know, there is a very small patch in FS#2894 that takes care of the problem ...
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08:36<rortom>you use flyspray for bugtracking?
08:36<@Belugas>good friday
08:37<@petern>have done for years
08:37<@petern>it's shit
08:39<@Belugas>yeah... it keeps oon collecting so called bugs
08:39<rortom>what bugtracker do you prefer?
08:40<_ln>fonsinchen: clearly in Rubidium's opinion a solution that breaks compilation for all 10.4 users is better than a very small patch.
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08:42<+glx>compilation is broken on 10.3 and it's ok for us :)
08:42*petern has a much better solution :D
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08:44<_ln>petern: does it involve a hot water bottle?
08:44<fonsinchen>Well, actually I don't care if it builds on Mac OS as I normally don't use Mac OS. But others might complain ...
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08:45<_ln>Let's see... petern hates Mac OS, Rubidium hates it, TrueBrain hates it. Why the hell do you keep supporting it then?
08:46<_ln>Just drop the support, it's easier that way.
08:46<+glx>we don't support it :)
08:46<+glx>just look how many bugs are not fixed for it :)
08:47<+glx>like FS#2782
08:47<_ln>glx: Providing a binary download for it is the same as "supporting".
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08:48<+glx>as long as compile farm generates a working binary it's ok
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08:48<mikk36>q: what does the abbreviation "CSD" mean ?
08:48<+glx>we can't compile it ourself natively
08:49<+glx>mikk36: where?
08:49<@petern>chartered society of designers? circuit switched data? communication service for the deaf?
08:49<mikk36>CSDcargoset for example
08:49<@petern>caller's society denmark
08:49<mikk36>then i have some CSD bus with Long Vehicles v4
08:49<mikk36>CSD bus is in the description
08:49<@petern>i suggest
08:50<@petern>you ask the people who made the CSD* stuff
08:50<@Belugas>a cup of coffee
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08:50<@Belugas>a cup...
08:50<@Belugas> A MUG!!!
08:51<Ammler>Czech Slovak Dhmm
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08:53<_ln>glx: FS#2782 is dated April 1st, i can't take it seriously.
08:53<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: ever looked any deeper into that diff than "a page says that..." and "it compiles for me now"?
08:53<@Rubidium>especially how the value is different for little endian and big endian machine?
08:54<@Rubidium>and '0' doesn't do that
08:54<fonsinchen>There is no XCode 2.0 for Intel
08:54<fonsinchen>so that's a non-issue
08:55<@Rubidium>and the value being 0 on XCode 2.0 and 4<<12 on XCode 2.5 isn't going to cause trouble?
08:57<fonsinchen>I don't know. I only have one Mac with one OS. So I can't test it. And I'm not trying to make you apply that patch. If you don't like it, forget it. I was just pointing out its existance.
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09:00<@Rubidium>even so, how am I supposed to know that there are *two* 2.5 SDKs? One that has it the 10.5 'define' and one that doesn't have said define?
09:00<@Rubidium>and I have asked a bunch of people who compiled on OSX whether it worked and none of them had any problems with it
09:00<@Rubidium>it starts to look more and more like Windows
09:01<+glx>well windows is usually backward compatible :)
09:01<_ln>i don't think this one got answered yet: [15:27] <_ln> Rubidium: why not do the check by trying to compile something that actually tries to use the required system variables?
09:03<@Rubidium>outlook! ;)
09:10<_ln>@seen Bjarni
09:10<@DorpsGek>_ln: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 14 hours, 3 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Bjarni> <-- that's not fair. I want a train to be named after me too
09:13<rortom>you might want to upgrade to flyspray svn head
09:13<rortom>did the same thing some days ago
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09:15<@Rubidium>what benefit would that have?
09:15<@Rubidium>given the amount of non-activity
09:15<rortom>haha :P
09:16<@petern>rortom, can you land an 767 on the middle airport of grenoble?
09:16<@Rubidium>basically all of the recent stuff in trunk I see in
09:16<@Rubidium>petern: why wouldn't you be able to land one there?
09:17<@petern>cos it's halfway up a mountain
09:17<rortom>petern: the one on the mountains?
09:17<@Rubidium>the requirements for landing a plane aren't that high
09:17<Xaroth>most planes can land by autopilot nowadays anyhow
09:18<@petern>rortom, yeah that one
09:18<rortom>nope, strange runway alignment :/
09:19<@petern>i did
09:19<@petern>but it was a bit heavy
09:19<@petern>it needs reverse thrust, heh
09:19<rortom>hehe, understandable ;)
09:19<rortom>now land the an-225 there :p
09:20<rortom>im sure its possible ;)
09:20<@petern>you can slow down enough by turning the engines off
09:20<@petern>but then you're stuck if you need a quick escape
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09:26<@petern>um, what, there's a vehicle on grenoble with no player :s
09:27<planetmaker>_ln, you do not honestly want to argue to drop complete support for MacOS? I mean... currently it's not ideal as there's no developer who can develop natively on MacOS.
09:27<planetmaker>But it's better than nothing.
09:27<@Belugas>find a dev for macos
09:27<@Belugas>ho ... what a surprise.. a meeting :P
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09:28<planetmaker>Belugas, I wish, I wish...
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09:32<_ln>planetmaker: well, i like playing OTTD on Mac, but as the devs' response to Mac-related problems often is like "use something that is not shit!"... then why not drop the support and live a happier life.
09:38<@Belugas>_ln, you're sure it's not something about Windows?
09:38<@Belugas>ho... waht do i care, anyway...
09:39<@Belugas>funny... a meeting about bugs cut short because of a bug at a client's HO :S
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09:54<planetmaker>_ln, there's mostly one dev with that response.
09:55<_ln>planetmaker: but more with the same attitude.
09:56<planetmaker>and - after all - how can they test it well? They have no proper test environment for it.
09:57<planetmaker>emulators can only work up to a certain point.
09:57<+glx>I can do some tests on 10.3.9, but no debugging
09:58<+glx>and no compiling either
09:58<_ln>planetmaker: i understand that, and i'm not blaming them (except Rubidium who deserves it). and the lack of proper test environment is another reason for dropping support.
09:59<planetmaker>_ln, why does Rubi deserve it?
09:59<planetmaker>Did you talk with him reasonably about it?
09:59<planetmaker>I did. Weeks ago. I can understand why he did what he did. Or do you have a better solution?
10:00<_ln>planetmaker: well, I remember him stating that some piece of code crashes on Mac "because Bjarni has messed with it". no other explanation provided. and now he has messed himself.
10:01<planetmaker>well... take this: XCode < 2.3 doesn't define certain required variables. Thus it won't compile there
10:02<planetmaker>as xcode version isn't easy to detect (do you know how)?, but SDK version is easy to detect, it's his choice to limit it to the SDK which is known to work.
10:02<_ln>planetmaker: that leads us to: [15:27] <_ln> Rubidium: why not do the check by trying to compile something that actually tries to use the required system variables?
10:03<_ln>planetmaker: Xcode version can be read from /Developer/Applications/ or something.
10:04<planetmaker>_ln, *or something*
10:04<@Belugas>_ln, can you provide a patch for it? One that will work on the compile farm as well?
10:05<planetmaker>there you see where's the problem with non-native development :)
10:05<@Belugas>if not, well... you know the dhrill...
10:05<planetmaker>that is knowledge which you only have readily at hand, if you're actually working on that system
10:05<_ln>planetmaker: I can check the exact path if you insist, the "something" part only referred to the fact that I wrote the path as I remember it.
10:05<planetmaker>And yes, I wanted to ask the same question as Belugas: if you know how to fix it: PLEASE do.
10:06<planetmaker>provide the patch.
10:06<planetmaker>I'm quite sure that it can be accepted, if done moderately reasonably and successfully tested on, say, two, three other machines.
10:06<planetmaker>I'm happy to test it myself.
10:07<_ln>Belugas, planetmaker: well, I can possibly provide a patch that works on my system, but obviously I have no way to test it on the compile farm and I'm not sure if it has Xcode really installed, etc.
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10:07<+glx>compile farm cross-compile for OSX
10:08<_ln>glx: does it have Xcode in /Developer?
10:09<planetmaker>_ln, just provide the damn patch :) Maybe it can then be improved / made better. But starting with something is always better than starting from scratch :)
10:09<planetmaker>And you normally don't need absolute paths anywhere.
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10:10<+glx>only SDK are present IIRC
10:10<_ln>so... you actually cannot check the Xcode version. duh.
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10:11<@petern>./configure --with-xcode-2-point-5
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10:23<Zuu>Hello, on windows how do I get the complete debug log to a file? The AI debug window is quite limited in length. And in windows an additional cmd window is opened for debug prints so just using > will probably not work. Hmm
10:25<Zuu>Or is the only way to get the sourecs and hack in logging to a file myself?
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10:38<Zuu>I solved it by extending the log length of the cmd window to 9000 rows.
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: typically you can prevent opening a second console window by turning it into a console app with convert.exe
10:40<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Okay, thanks for that tip
10:41<+glx>convert is on my dev space
10:46<_ln>planetmaker: as requested:
10:51<planetmaker>_ln, but Xcode 2.4 works, too :P
10:51<_ln>quite likely yes... however, the given upgrade instruction is still valid.
10:52<planetmaker>100% sure, yes :) I have it :P
10:52<planetmaker>I'll test it when I'm home. Thanks
10:52<_ln>if you encounter that message and your SDK (and Xcode) is too old, it doesn't make particularly much sense to upgrade it only to 2.4 in that situation.
10:53<planetmaker>of course.
10:53<planetmaker>Also that xcode isn't available online or so.
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10:54<_ln>it is, but requires a registration.
10:54<planetmaker>sure that you can dig out a 2.4 link?
10:54<planetmaker>I'm registered at the apple's dev site but didn't find even 2.5 only 3.0
10:54<_ln>well, not sure about 2.4, no.
10:54<planetmaker>the first is still available, though, if you have the direct link. Rubi somewhen gave it to me.
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10:59<_ln>Xcode 2.5 is still there
11:00<_ln>as well as 2.4 and 2.3
11:00<planetmaker>hm... got the link to that page for me?
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11:02<_ln>the url looks like it's not very linkable (contains probably some session id), but log in to Developer Connection → Something → Downloads → Developer Tools
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11:03<planetmaker>you're right, _ln
11:03<planetmaker>Must have constantly missed that. Thanks
11:05<dragonhorseboy>any of you seen coal mines going into 4-digit output figures?
11:05<dragonhorseboy>well i got 1,494 tonnes now
11:06<planetmaker>2048 is max afaik.
11:06<dragonhorseboy>to think it was just 128 tonnes in janurary 1920 :p
11:06<dragonhorseboy>2048? damn .. I'll be crazy if it hits THAT
11:06<dragonhorseboy>I'll have to find a third powerplant then :) (jonty is using some grf that introduces low stockpiling limits)
11:06<planetmaker>hehe :)
11:06<dragonhorseboy>oh..yeah this coal mine is on the IS2 map yeah
11:06<planetmaker>just finance a 2nd just adjacent.
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11:08<dragonhorseboy>"can't build..too close to another industry"
11:08<dragonhorseboy>so go figure .. thats even from 20 tiles far away (station spread is 24)
11:08<planetmaker>well. build it within station reach - if possible.
11:08<dragonhorseboy>nah I'll just hunt another powerplant
11:08<dragonhorseboy>for some reason this map has them more or less "bunched" in certain areas
11:09<dragonhorseboy>its december 2114 now anyway ;)
11:09<dragonhorseboy>ah went back to 1,048 tonnes >_<
11:09<dragonhorseboy>maybe it'll pick back up eventually
11:09<planetmaker>uh... quite a bit time since the game start.
11:09<planetmaker>btw... which version? beta2 or beta3?
11:09<dragonhorseboy>beta3 .. its the public one anyhow
11:10<dragonhorseboy>and the game ran to like 221?-something on the 2cc+metro map before this one .. and I was the one to suggest resetting it together with japanset grfs finally
11:10<dragonhorseboy>(which explains how I was able to get on so early..heh)
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11:11<Svish>are there any good examples on how to use those new path signals? Have read the manual thing about them, and I just don't get them...
11:11<planetmaker>there's no save way I know to reset a game with different newgrfs.
11:12<planetmaker>Svish, simple rule: put them there where a train may stop.
11:12<planetmaker>don't put them there, where a train better doesn't stop.
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11:12<dragonhorseboy>reset as in back to 1920 for a new game :p
11:12<dragonhorseboy>not an old game
11:12<planetmaker>yeah... I just wonder how it works with changing newgrfs. But nvm.
11:13<Svish>but you use regular signals and pre-signals usually right? where would you use the path signals?
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11:13<dragonhorseboy>svish....for splitting junctions or any stations obviously
11:14<Svish>are there any good examples somewhere?
11:14<planetmaker>Svish, I'd use them for X type constructs and station entries
11:14<planetmaker>or very low traffic junctions.
11:15<planetmaker>Svish, the openttdcoop archives has savegames which employ them.
11:16<Svish>where do I find that?
11:16<Svish>when using it for station entries, you would then use normal or pre-signals for exits then?
11:17<Xaroth>i'm lazy, i use PBS :P
11:18<Svish>pbs is path signals?
11:19<planetmaker>yes, many people use that obscure name.
11:19<Eddi|zuHause><Svish> but you use regular signals and pre-signals usually right? where would you use the path signals? <- put PBS signals where you previously put presignals, remove the exit signals
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>do not mix path and block signals
11:23<dragonhorseboy>well I'm going so bye ;)
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11:24<Xaroth>one would almost wonder why he adopted the name 'dragon horse boy' ...
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11:25<Svish>not mix path and block signals (regular signals?). how do you... "end" a path signal block or what to call it and start using normal signals?
11:26<Xaroth>a path block ends at the next signal
11:26<_ln>what does Type: Bug/Patch/... mean? If I have a patch that fixes a bug, is it Bug or Patch?
11:26<planetmaker>it's a patch IMO, _ln
11:26<planetmaker>because it's not really a bug (if you talk about your build system patch)
11:27<planetmaker>it's rather a feature ;) - it enhances the systems it compiles on.
11:27<_ln>the patch is not a bug, but failing to configure on what is supposed to be a "supported" platform version, that is a bug.
11:27<planetmaker>*it increases the number of systems...
11:28<Svish>what is a safe stopping point?
11:28<planetmaker>Svish, ask yourself :)
11:28<_ln>and indeed it's regression.
11:28<planetmaker>would you network suffer, if a train waits there for a free path?
11:29<planetmaker>would it block paths to other points which are then inaccessible?
11:29<_ln>here's an FS# about it for you who are into bureaucracy:
11:29<Svish>so in this example in the manual:, to make that work would you need another path signal further up the track?
11:29<planetmaker>it's not about burocracy.
11:30<planetmaker>it's about keeping track of things, _ln
11:30<Svish>or would you remove that signal place a normal one there?
11:30<planetmaker>not everything can be fixed right now and then. Patches have to be tested and FS allows to keep things ordered and nicely visible for all
11:31<_ln>planetmaker: which is the same as bureaucracy. who said bureaucracy is entirely negative.
11:31<planetmaker>Svish, any signal there seems wrong IMO
11:33<Svish>but this one is correct?
11:33<Svish>would it fail for longer trains?
11:34<Svish>since it would no longer be a safe stopping point
11:34<planetmaker>Svish, probably yes and yes
11:34<Svish>guess I will just have to try it out... and probably totally fail a bit until I get this thing.... hehe
11:37<Ammler>[17:19] <Eddi|zuHause> do not mix path and block signals <-- you can with disabled waiting times.
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, sure you can, but you need to know what you are actually doing...
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>and it takes longer to explain
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11:47<_ln>eh, i'm not allowed to change any fields in a bug report reported by myself once it's been entered?
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11:47<_ln>@seen KUDr
11:47<@DorpsGek>_ln: KUDr was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 0 days, 0 hours, 46 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <KUDr> hi
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11:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r16600 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: Give a more meaningful error message when console commands expect an integer but don't get one.
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12:06<@Belugas>Doctor KUDr!
12:06<frosch123>Doctor Q ?
12:08*frosch123 does not know, whether 'Q' had some title. I suppose he left school early.
12:08<@Belugas>like... "Q"uit ?
12:09<frosch123>nah, I meant 'Q' like 'M' or '007'
12:09<@petern>he "Q"uit school early...
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12:16<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: i guess it avoids having people edit everything out leaving it saying "n/m, was my fault"
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12:22<Svish>hm... really wish right-clicking on buttons would display a shortcut key as well...
12:25<planetmaker>it should actually do, Svish
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12:35<Eddi|zuHause>Svish: you can update the translation you use to do so
12:40<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: well m'kay, but can't even change severity field or operating system or anything.
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: only the devs can do that, so if you really want to change it, ask them
12:41<_ln>is that a flyspray default, or just fucked-up configuration on this one?
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12:43<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: of course my bug reports are perfect the way i enter them initially, and do not need any further modifications. but on all other trackers that i've used the bug reporter has some control over the fields afterwards too.
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>neither can i read minds nor did i ever set up a flyspray before. i am not the person you need to speak to.
12:45<_ln>that's why the question about flyspray defaults wasn't directed at you.
12:48<Svish>is there a way of making trains don't stop on stations as default? like if you have A===B===C, and a train only have orders for A and C, I don't want it to stop at B
12:49<+glx>use non stop order
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: but i can't do anything about your follow-up rant either
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12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i can only tell you what the rules are, i can't change them
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>so either you follow the rules, or go some levels higher up
12:54<Svish>glx: yes, but can I somehow make that the default? so that whenever I start a new order list the default is "go non-stop to"
12:54<Svish>since that is usually what I always want
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, check the advanced settings
12:57<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: sorry if i somehow implied you were responsible.
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13:16<Svish>any recommendations on a good 4-way junction?
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13:25<KUDr>[18:06:28] <@Belugas> Doctor KUDr! -> hi! sorry I had phone..
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13:45<@Belugas>well.. same in here... to some extend, KUDr
13:45<@Belugas>what's up? been a while
13:45<KUDr>all right
13:45<KUDr>and there?
13:46<@Belugas>rushing like a scared rabbit, as usual...
13:46<@Belugas>but hey... it's friday afternnon!
13:46<KUDr>so still all the same
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13:48<@Belugas>work and no fun
13:49<@Belugas>thanks god, there is music
13:50<KUDr>thanks got there is ottd
13:50<@Belugas>what is that?
13:50<KUDr>so i can relax a bit
13:50<KUDr>one game
13:50<@Belugas>you still play at it?
13:50<@Belugas>i have to admit, i don't my son has found some other games
13:50<KUDr>of course
13:52<Svish>is it best to use the normal signs on normal tracks? or might you as well use the new path signs almost everywhere?
13:53<@Belugas>when i played, i used normal signals only, apart on problematic intersections/station entries
13:53<@Belugas>it all depends of your style
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14:41<SmatZ>_ln: typos in comments hardly have "High" severity
14:41<SmatZ>welcome, KUDr :)
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14:48<_ln>SmatZ: which is why you changed the severity of the Mac configure fail bug to Very Low?
14:50<SmatZ>_ln: because you set it to Very High
14:50<_ln>SmatZ: no, i set it to Critical.
14:50<SmatZ>I should have closed it then :-p
14:51<_ln>SmatZ: well educate me, if configure (and therefore build) completely failing on some platform is Very Low, what would qualify even as high as Low?
14:52<SmatZ>_ln: the real reason why I set it to very low is that it was opened by you
14:53<_ln>SmatZ: don't you think that's inappropriate?
14:53<SmatZ>not a bit
14:54<SmatZ>if it compiles for you, good
14:54<_ln>SmatZ: why do you touch the bug reports at all if they don't concern you or platforms you use?
14:55<_ln>planetmaker: see how much my patches are appreciated here.
14:55<planetmaker>_ln: critical or high certainly is something which would stop everyone from playing, eh?
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14:55<planetmaker>_ln: it doesn't tell anything about appreciation.
14:55-!-mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by DorpsGek
14:56<planetmaker>All patches I supplied I either identified as low or very low :)
14:56-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~lanurmi@*] by SmatZ
14:56-!-_ln was kicked from #openttd by SmatZ [_ln]
14:56<@SmatZ>Konversation didn't allow me to set reason
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14:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's why i generally type /kick <reason> into the buffer, then clock on "ban user", and then send the kick
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>in mIRC this wasn't working properly either, as kickban would first issue the ban, then ask for the kick message
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>which allowed the user to leave before being kicked
14:58-!-mode/#openttd [-o SmatZ] by SmatZ
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'd file that under "Karma" ;)
14:59-!-DeGhost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:59<Ammler>or use DorpsGek, that is how I get kicked here ;-)
14:59<SmatZ>I tried, but it didn't work
14:59<SmatZ> /msg DorpsGek kickban #openttd _ln why do you care
15:00<@DorpsGek>Ammler: kban [<channel>] [--{exact,nick,user,host}] <nick> [<seconds>] [<reason>]
15:00<SmatZ>should I unban him and then reban with correct reason?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>someone who shouts all the time for no reason is not being taken seriously if he shouts with reason
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: you could ask TrueBrain to have "kickban" as alias for "kban"
15:01<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: thanks, I will try to learn how to use DorpsGek :)
15:02<Eddi|zuHause><CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r16600 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: Give a more meaningful error message when console commands expect an integer but don't get one. <-- i take it this is a response for the topic in the german forum ;)
15:02<frosch123>yup :)
15:03<SmatZ>planetmaker: if you have the same problem as FS#2989 ... actually the "Severity" doesn't have much to do with when it will be solved
15:03<SmatZ>rather... if it was opened by ln, it's likely to be ignored
15:03<SmatZ>and nobody likes to have ignored task opened with Critical severity
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of which, who actually opened the error report with the missing earrings?
15:04<planetmaker>SmatZ: I know that severity doesn't make it likely or less likely :)
15:04<planetmaker>Though a compile failure on all platforms would - IMO - qualify as severe.
15:04<planetmaker>But that obviously isn't the case.
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>i've had very low severity patches included after 1 year ;)
15:05<planetmaker>And yes, without patch, my Xcode 2.4 doesn't compile it anymore. But I just undo that commit...
15:06<planetmaker>and maybe I'll not have that problem anymore in a few months ;)
15:09<SmatZ>planetmaker: the reason for that change in configure was that Xcode 2.4 fails to export some symbol, right? so we could just test for that symbol being exported?
15:09<SmatZ>not that it changes much :)
15:09<planetmaker>SmatZ: no. not 2.4
15:09<planetmaker>older versions
15:09<planetmaker>2.x with x < 4
15:09<planetmaker>2.4 worked here until that commit
15:09<planetmaker>and still works btw :)
15:10<planetmaker>but I don't know which and I don't know how to detect the version of xcode. So... I can live with two modified build files in trunk ;)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: (if i understand that correctly) the problem is that the compiler cannot distinguish between 2.0 and 2.4, but between 2.0 and 2.5
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15:13<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that's what I was told / understood, too
15:17<SmatZ>planetmaker: what is the patch you are using?
15:17<SmatZ>do you have to #define kCGBitmapByteOrder32Host 0 ?
15:18<planetmaker>SmatZ: I just reverted Rubi's commit
15:18<planetmaker>But I just test that patch. Seems to enable compiling here, too.
15:18<planetmaker>But I don't understand what it does.
15:19<SmatZ>planetmaker: so kCGBitmapByteOrder32Host is defined on your system, even when you have older system (but newer SDK?)
15:19<planetmaker>I can only speak for version 2.4 of xcode, though
15:20<planetmaker>basically I've the default install which comes with my system.
15:20<planetmaker>and I need to go shopping now ;) bb in 40 minutes or so
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15:22<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: it could work if it tested if kCGBitmapByteOrder32Host is defined
15:22<SmatZ>but well, Bjarni is gone
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, _ln was suggesting that ;)
15:23<SmatZ>and the OSX port is going to die if nobody rewrites some outdated parts of it
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>during configure, a test compile could be made
15:24<SmatZ>well, his patch makes sense
15:24<SmatZ>but it's _ln
15:26-!-mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by DorpsGek
15:26-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!~lanurmi@*] by SmatZ
15:26-!-mode/#openttd [-o SmatZ] by DorpsGek
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, sometimes a man must accept that even the people he doesn't like have good points :)
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>in the German Bundestag it works like this: if the Left party makes a proposal that makes sense, and the Liberal party agrees with the proposal, they do not actually agree to the proposal of the Left party, but they make an own proposal with the exact same text
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15:35<SmatZ>there is also a problem with the way he presents his problem
15:36<SmatZ>and the way he is talking to others
15:36<SmatZ>and such
15:36<SmatZ>he's not nice
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>that is certainly true
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>but that is partly the effect of mutual exaggeration
15:37<SmatZ>most people don't have problems...
15:37<SmatZ>but I agree
15:39<SmatZ>I am not happy this happens
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>the patch name, for example, is a response to this line: "<planetmaker> _ln, just provide the damn patch :)"
15:39<SmatZ>so planetmaker is to blame :)
15:40<andythenorth>I blame planetmaker two :P
15:40<SmatZ>he's not here
15:41<andythenorth>ducking the blame. maybe he's busy making makefiles. I hope so :)
15:42<@Belugas>blaming the duck
15:42<andythenorth>there will be much sadness here if the OS X port dies. it would be enough to make me learn C++, gcc, xcode and whatever else I'd need to do.
15:42<andythenorth>I see no duck
15:42<@Belugas>fluffing the flame
15:42<andythenorth>go north
15:42<@Belugas>cooking the cake
15:42<andythenorth>there is no flame here
15:42<@Belugas>slipping the slurp
15:43<andythenorth>pickup slurp
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>this reads like a thread on ICHC...
15:44<@Belugas>which hand do you choose? the right or the left?
15:44<@Belugas>hahaha... gotcha!
15:44<andythenorth>does one know what the other is doing?
15:44<@Belugas>i've got no more arms!!!!
15:44<andythenorth>he is armless
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, he speaks french, he is of course 'armless
15:45<andythenorth>but really no lets not let grfs fix the font size in pixels. please?
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15:47<@Belugas>tutututut.. glx speaks french, i speak french-canadian
15:47<@Belugas>not the same
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>does that mean you can pronounce "h"?
15:48<@Belugas>pis toé?
15:49<@Belugas>comme dans Heya la, mon Hosti!
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>my dictionary does not know "pis toé"
15:50<+glx>Belugas should use utf8 :)
15:51<+glx>and indeed he doesn't speak french ;)
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16:06<fonsinchen>Why is cargo paid before it is unloaded and not afterwards? Like this the vehicle's cargo list has to be looped more often (once for payment and for delivery) which makes the code quite ugly. Every time you change anything in the unloading code you have to remember that this also changes the payment. If cargo was payed after unloading only the amount of money to be paid would have to be remembered until the vehicle leaves the station.
16:06<fonsinchen>And it would remove a silly cheat.
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: problem is gradual loading
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>you would have to make a profit animation for each loading step
16:08<fonsinchen>just show the sum when the vehicle leaves the station.
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>because during each loading step, only part of the cargo is unloaded
16:08<SmatZ>I think I understand fonsinchen's point
16:08<fonsinchen>So: add it up and show it when the vehicle leaves.
16:08<SmatZ>and I don't know the answer :)
16:09<SmatZ>maybe so it has "old-like" behaviour
16:09<SmatZ>so you see money when the train arrives
16:09<SmatZ>not when it's leaving
16:09<fonsinchen>How important is that?
16:09<SmatZ>for some people, a lot
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: if you check profit at vehicle leaving, you would again have to check many ways the vehicle could be leaving
16:09<SmatZ>changing this behaviour would cause many confusion for many users
16:10<fonsinchen>there is exactly one method that gets called when the vehicle leaves.
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>like sending to depot
16:10<frosch123>like having a timetable with 20 days, and the unloading only taking 2 days
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>or vehicle crashing and being removed
16:10<fonsinchen>void Vehicle::LeaveStation()
16:10<fonsinchen>crashing is a corner case, OK
16:11<SmatZ>you don't need to be paid for cargo if you crashed
16:11<fonsinchen>but well, if the vehicle crashes you don't usually care about its cargo being paid
16:11<SmatZ>actually, you are paid for cargo even if the train crashes before it's unloaded :-p
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>well you do, if you unloaded before the crash
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if that is actually exploitable ;)
16:12<fonsinchen>you can exploit the current system much more easily
16:12<frosch123>fonsinchen: how can you exploit it?
16:12<fonsinchen>have a vehicle unload and as soon as you see the number have it switch to the next order
16:12<fonsinchen>then you keep the cargo.
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: yes, but you do not get a second payment
16:13<frosch123>and? how are you going to get the cargo out of the vehicle?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>because the cargo packet remembers that it already has been paid for
16:13<fonsinchen>Oh, ok. You're right it doesn't work like that.
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>that used to be an exploit, but it has been fixed ;)
16:15<fonsinchen>Still there is a lot of very ugly code in VehiclePayment and LoadUnloadVehicle and as well as the evil R-word "old-like behaviour" is no guarantee for nice game play. There is actually no reason to get paid before delivering.
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16:17<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: neither is there a reason to get paid for each time a wagon gets unloaded a bit
16:17<fonsinchen>That's not what I'm proposing
16:18<fonsinchen>I'm proposing payment for all unloaded cargo when the vehicle leaves the station.
16:18<@Rubidium>and you can bet on it that people are going to complain that they only get paid once the vehicle is leaving
16:18<fonsinchen>Well, then you can ask them why they should get paid before ...
16:19<@Rubidium>technically you should be paid before the passenger enters the train
16:19<fonsinchen>That requires cargodist, though.
16:19<@Rubidium>and repay the passenger if he doesn't reach his/her destination
16:19<fonsinchen>You don't want to force people to use cargodist, do you?
16:20<fonsinchen>So lets keep the system of payment on arrival.
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16:22<fonsinchen>Perhaps payment should happen when no vehicle in the consist has an unload flag anymore. I think this would be very easy to understand for everyone.
16:23<fonsinchen>Vehicle arrives, down arrow appears, down arrow disappears, payment.
16:23<frosch123>fonsinchen: allow the user to specify the time the vehicle needs for transporting. the cargo will then pay when loaded, and the company has to pay the doubled price when it arrives late
16:23<fonsinchen>This is much more complicated though. And no one will understand it.
16:23<planetmaker>frosch123: that sounds like an entirely new patch on its own.
16:24<frosch123>lets call it "Better vehicle loading"
16:24<SmatZ>current system is best!
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>let's call it "realistic" :p
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16:24<frosch123>"Better xxx" is always a nice name for a patch or something similiar
16:24<planetmaker>frosch123: rather it then should be called "price auctions" or alike
16:26<frosch123>far too descriptive
16:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16601 /trunk/src/network/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#2880]: try 2... hopefully better this time
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>let's call it "better game" then :p
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>and "better game 2", "better game 3"
16:26<@Rubidium>isn't TTDP the "better game"?
16:27<fonsinchen>Why give it a name?
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>"setting 1", "setting 2", ... ;)
16:27<fonsinchen>There is no setting
16:27<fonsinchen>it's mandatory
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>where's the fun in that?
16:27<fonsinchen>Or are you talking about frosch's idea?
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: your commit messages are also not a primary example of descriptivity ;)
16:29<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: who cares, the bugreport is descriptive enough in this case
16:29<@Rubidium>and it's trunk only, so it won't ever end up in a changelog
16:30<@Rubidium>except the one on binaries
16:30<frosch123>fonsinchen: btw. if you took my 'idea' serious, it is a bit micro-managementish
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>is this about the quit game thingie?
16:30<@Rubidium>and for there it's an excercise ;)
16:30<fonsinchen>frosch, I didn't take it very serious.
16:31<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: if you want more details ask dihedral :)
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16:32<fonsinchen>I think I definitely will implement payment-after-unloading. The main question is if I should go through the extra hassle of implementing it for plain trunk and then merging it into cargodist or if I should implement it for cargodist from the beginning on.
16:32<fonsinchen>If no one is interested in it here, I will do the latter.
16:33<frosch123>implement it in cargodist, so you can properly rewrite it for trunk if it turns out nice :)
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16:33<fonsinchen>that rewrite will have to be done by someone else ...
16:35<frosch123>well, don't take that 'properly' personal. I just meant that I doubt that the final result would share a lot with the first idea :)
16:36<planetmaker>a general rule, I guess. The first try isn't nice in most cases ;)
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>third time is the charm
16:37<fonsinchen>I have a very specific idea on how to implement it: Remove most of VehiclePayment, add another field to vehicle for the credit that has accumulated, count the credit in LoadUnloadVehicle, show the money and add it to the company's account in LeaveStation.
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16:38<frosch123>which does not answer whether displaying the amount during LeaveStation would be comfortable for the user :)
16:39<fonsinchen>Alternatively, if that is too late, already show it when in LoadUnloadVehicle it turns out that no vehicle in the consist is unloading anymore.
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>so, again, what about leaving to depot?
16:40<frosch123>e.g. you could also sum up the payment next to the loading indicator, and make it start floating once unloading is finished
16:40<fonsinchen>LeaveStation is still called
16:40<frosch123>and play the income sound on arrival
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you then have to check whether you already showed the animation at the end of unloading
16:40<fonsinchen>frosch, that involves GUI code. That's someone else's job
16:41<fonsinchen>Yes, I'll just set the credit to 0 then.
16:41<fonsinchen>That's all very simple things.
16:42<planetmaker>fonsinchen: but many simple things add up ;)
16:42<planetmaker>and only simple things included give a "round" picture.
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16:45*Belugas want s to go home... badly... there is a beer awaiting... belgian one, of course...
16:45<SmatZ>czech beer for the win!
16:45<@Belugas>glx, i try hard for utf8, i do...
16:45<@Belugas>SmatZ, i've not had the chance to discover
16:45<planetmaker>Belugas: they both have their charm :)
16:45<@Belugas>but let say that regarding beer, i'm a little bit patriotic ;)
16:45<+glx>it's just a setting in your client
16:46<frosch123>hmm, I always confuse whether belgian or czech rep. is the country with most types of beer
16:46<planetmaker>...but... German beer is fine - and in my fridge :D
16:46<planetmaker>an un-beatable advantage right now
16:47<SmatZ>Belugas: so true :)
16:47<frosch123>though I don't know whether there is any acceptable czech beer except pilsen
16:47<SmatZ>pilsen is the best
16:47<SmatZ>others are drinkable ... in most cases :)
16:47<SmatZ>though there are beers that are good too
16:48<SmatZ>depends on your taste
16:48<SmatZ>those more expensive beers are usually all good
16:51<SmatZ>(more expensive = ~0.8E here)
16:51<SmatZ>per 0.5l
16:51<planetmaker>that's aceptable.
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16:52<frosch123>which results in the question: are the good beers good because they are expensive, or are they expensive because they are good
16:52<@Belugas>i don't believe in fancy expensive beers
16:52<@Belugas>if they do taste good,
16:53<@Belugas>if they have the right colour,
16:53<@Rubidium>I don't believe in any beer
16:53<@Belugas>if they are strong enough,
16:53<@Belugas>sorry for you Rubidium :)
16:53<frosch123>Belugas: "strong" is very relative to countries afaik
16:54<@Belugas>0.5% alcohol is not strong
16:54<@Belugas>5 is relatively strong
16:54<SmatZ>0.5% alcohol is "alcohol-free" :)
16:54<@Belugas>8.5 (what awaits me) is starting to get storng
16:54<@Belugas>12 is strong
16:54<@Belugas>The Trappist of Rochefort -> 12%.... miam...
16:54-!-Cybert1nus is now known as Cybertinus
16:55<@Belugas>anyway... time's up, i'll just run away from that forsaken place
16:55<planetmaker>that _is_ indeed strong
16:55<SmatZ>hehe :) we have 4%-5% mostly, but there are specials that have >10% ... like , I like it :)
16:56<@Belugas>night all
16:56<SmatZ>good night Belugas, enjoy your beer :-)
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17:35<@petern>win 21
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18:02*welshdragon waves at Sacro
18:03*jonty-comp berates welshdragon for ragequit fail
18:03*welshdragon posts on b3ta jonty-comp's server passwords
18:04*jonty-comp is changing it anyway
18:06*Sacro wants admin :D
18:06<jonty-comp>you haven't even played
18:06-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
18:06<jonty-comp>suddenly every man and his freakin dog wants admin
18:08<Sacro>I joined once
18:08<Sacro>looked, left
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18:08<jonty-comp>probably sensible
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18:53<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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19:01<Nite_Owl>Hello Chruker
19:01<Nite_Owl>Sorry fo rthe delay
19:02<Nite_Owl>*for the
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19:05<@petern>i don't really need the engine pool patch from 2006 any more, do i?
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20:29<PeterT>any developers here?
20:32<PeterT>can someone teach me how to use the alias command?
20:32<PeterT>what it says on the wiki doesnt work
20:33<@glx>did you try with quotes?
20:35<PeterT>i tried
20:36<PeterT>i was trying to make it so when i type "modme" it changes my name to "Peter {MOD}
20:36<PeterT>i used
20:36<PeterT>alias modme name "Peter {MOD}
20:36<PeterT>all it does now is, tell me my name
20:37<@glx>try alias modme "name Peter {MOD}"
20:40<@glx>hmm fails too
20:40<PeterT>nope, now it gives me the instructions to name option
20:40<@glx>alias modme "name 'Peter {MOD}'"
20:40<@glx>that works
20:40<@glx>I tried :)
20:41<PeterT>no it doesnt
20:41<PeterT>oh wait
20:41<PeterT>it does, thanks
20:41<PeterT>when you did peter mod was it a
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20:47<PeterT>thanks glx
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23:30<AC6000>wow, lotta people in here...
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 20 00:00:00 2009