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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-07-22

---Logopened Wed Jul 22 00:00:47 2009
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04:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16908 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: s/DepotWaypointReservation/DepotReservation/
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05:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16910 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Update: remove removed strings from the other language files
05:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16909 /trunk/src/ (40 files in 5 dirs):
05:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2996]: NewGRF stations would be triggering assertions all over the place when using the more advanced station types.
05:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: make (rail) waypoints sub classes of 'base stations', make buoys waypoints and unify code between them where possible.
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05:05-!-Lisa is now known as Guest113
05:05<Guest113>is there a register system :x
05:05-!-Guest113 is now known as Liza
05:05<Akoz>add some digits and Im sure it'll be fine ;)
05:06<Liza>i think that works
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05:07<planetmaker>Maybe English people will pronounce it even more correctly this way :-P
05:09<planetmaker>I referred to pronounciation of z vs. s
05:09<Liza>ze, es
05:09<Liza>norwegian prononciation
05:09<Liza>ce, es actualy
05:09<planetmaker>dunno norwegian. but I guess one will be voiced one not.
05:10<Liza>zc is pretty much the same on norwegian, z is never used
05:10<planetmaker>like the difference between _s_ame and mu_s_ic
05:10<Liza>hmm i dont hear any difference :P
05:10<Liza>s is s to me :P
05:11<Liza>in both words
05:11<Liza>i guess im saying them wrong then
05:11<Akoz>*votes with Liza*
05:11<Liza>but thats what happends when your born in norway, and learn norwegian
05:12<Liza>who is planetmaker anyway?
05:13<Akoz>he is the maker of planets
05:13<Ammler>some call him god
05:13<planetmaker>some call Ammler description highly over-rated
05:13<Liza>i see :P
05:14<Liza>hmm, a possible fix suggestion for ottd should be able to build while negative money
05:14<planetmaker>You got a loan for that
05:14<planetmaker>You can borrow more
05:14<Liza>gets bit dangerus when you only have a few more meters to go and run out of cash
05:15<Liza>in early game the only time you need a loan :P and cant loan more
05:15<Tefad>it's called planning..
05:15<OwenS>Stupid stupid stupid... Biig box arrives. Open it up to find foam, more foam, even more foam, lots of air... and an 160GB HD
05:15<Akoz>its called gambling
05:16<Liza>then how can i afford building a long train to a city and fill it whit people and crash it :( whit another train that i cant afford
05:16<Tefad>i always start with a short coal route
05:16<OwenS>That box was big enough to contain all the other parts of my oder!
05:16<Akoz>thats why you always loose Tefad
05:16<Liza>Tefad i only play on desert maps
05:16<Tefad>or even RVs..
05:16<Liza>there are no coal mines
05:16<Akoz>the long coal route always wins
05:16<Tefad>well whatever works on desert..
05:16<Liza>too expensive
05:16<Akoz>water works too
05:17<Akoz>but oil is best
05:17<Liza>anyway there should be natural cargo loss when transfering those types of goods
05:17<Liza>due the heat
05:17<Akoz>from ceiled containers?
05:17<Liza>and for steamtrains there should be nessessary to place watertowers along the track
05:17<Liza>sorta like what they did whit electric
05:18<Liza>exept that was sorta unnessessary since most trains hide the electric as a 3rd rail
05:18<planetmaker>What would it add to gameplay?
05:18<Liza>so boys can pee on it
05:18<Liza>that was what i was wondering when they added electric rails
05:18<OwenS>Erm.. most trains 3rd rail? What? Since when?
05:18<Liza>then why not steam too
05:18<Liza>Owen i dunno that :P
05:18<Tefad>3rd rail for metros maybe
05:18<Liza>in anycase poled electric to height has its downsides too
05:18<planetmaker>uhm... there's no 3rd rail in that sense. There's plain, there's electric, there's monorail and there's maglev
05:18<OwenS>The only 3rd rail trains I know are urban ones
05:19<Liza>those are futuristic ØP
05:19<Liza>only used in one contry i think that monorail
05:19<OwenS>there a short Maglev line installed in China
05:19<OwenS>planetmaker: Shame we can't do like Locomotion with addable 3rd rail & catenary
05:19<planetmaker>I dunno Locomotion.
05:20<planetmaker>Nor do I actually have intend to do so :-)
05:20<Liza>meh, it would be fun to have a harder game
05:20<Liza>seriusly hard isnt very hard
05:20<Liza>and now whit the ease use of light signals
05:20<Liza>it hasnt been easyer
05:20<planetmaker>Liza, get e.g. the 2cc Train Set, start in 1920, use also egrvts and use high building costs.
05:20<planetmaker>Maybe even add ECS industries or at least Pikkabird industries
05:21<TrueBrain>morning all
05:21<planetmaker>good morning TrueBrain
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05:22<Liza>also i would like to see r&d in game, where you can put money in reserch, else it takes longer for new train types to appear
05:22<Liza>or shorter if you can afford funding it, and or giveing the one that funds most 2 or 1 year advance use, like they have now
05:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16911 /trunk/docs/ (landscape.html landscape_grid.html): -Update: map array documentation
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05:24<planetmaker>Liza, that would need a person sufficiently interested in that feature and sufficiently knowledgable in programming to implement it.
05:25<planetmaker>and it would need deciding on all those issues how that relates to existing NewGRF which define introduction dates etc pp. Not an easy thing to do.
05:25<Liza>just add a int per train that is water level, and it drains per sec of travel or somethintg
05:25<Liza>and passing a water tower or forceing trains to stop and refill
05:25<Liza>i honestly dont see the difficulty
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05:26<Liza>but then again i havent checked what language ottd is written in :P
05:26<planetmaker>I referred to the r&d "proposal"
05:26<Liza>ah, that i dunno, just make a ref to the years train come
05:26<Liza>and push that year time based on funds stored in another int
05:26<Liza>that people can send their money to of corse
05:26<Liza>add of a few buttons :P
05:27<Liza>virsa versa if no money then train come a few years later, realisticly train industry has to r&d more trains :P
05:27<Liza>and it doesnt need to be in normal game, just a added challenge :P
05:28<Alberth>can you add a condition to releasing a train for use, or is it just a fixed year?
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05:28<Liza>i think its fixed years
05:28<Liza>right now
05:28<Liza>but as whit all numbers :P allways fun to change
05:29<Alberth>in NewGRF I mean. If the former, you could make an industry that does what you want, I think
05:29<Liza>what do you want
05:30<Alberth>have r&d in the game
05:30<Liza>i was speaking in speculation and suggestive manner :P
05:30<Alberth>in the form of needing to deliver 'enough' cargo to some industry
05:30<Liza>sure that can be a factor too
05:30<Alberth>I was thinking aloud in ways to implement it :p
05:30<Liza>nice ;)
05:31<Liza>you should allways say what your thinking ;)
05:31<planetmaker>Liza, it was actually clear :-)
05:31*Liza is puzzeled
05:32<planetmaker>Kowing who he is, but more so knowing roughly how the newgrf system works, make clear what he proposes :-)
05:32<Alberth>there are a bunch of NewGRF wizards here that understand my question :)
05:33<planetmaker>FYI, Liza : newgrf are not just new graphics, but it can define also quite a bit of game mechanics.
05:33<planetmaker>it's a whole plug-in system in a way.
05:33<planetmaker>it just needs people who write those newgrf. You could be the one who does the first r&d newgrf :-)
05:34<Liza>ooh i dont know about that
05:34<Liza>writeing new grfs are quite expensive
05:34<Alberth>most of us make new things because we want some feature in the game
05:35<Liza>sorta like monkey see monkey do?
05:35<Liza>iam just kidding :D
05:36<Liza>what language do you guys?
05:36<OwenS>For NewGRF coding?
05:36<OwenS>It's called NFO
05:36<Liza>nfo, hmm dont think iv heard of it, im gona haf to check up on that
05:36<Akoz>its not pretty :<
05:36<Liza>its not object oriented?
05:36<OwenS>It's not even procedural!
05:36<Liza>National Farmers Organization (NFO)
05:37<Liza>so you make fields in logical data pattern
05:37<Akoz>nah its not pretty at all
05:37<Liza>and hopefor the best that it will work in game?
05:37<Akoz>from what I gathered you just fetch info from available places and then display it somewhere
05:37<Akoz>so you cant really program anything
05:38<Liza>thats normal
05:39<OwenS>NFO is basically an assembly language for the interpreter :p
05:39<Akoz>assembly > NFO imo
05:39<Akoz>in assembly you can acctually do stuff :p
05:39<OwenS>NFOs a confusing hybrid of declarative and weird :p
05:40<Liza>ascii art and text
05:40<Akoz>nope, try again
05:40<Akoz>is what it looks like
05:40<Liza>altavista isnt pointing to anything i see thats programing oriented
05:40<Akoz>I just googled "openttd nfo"
05:41<Liza>ok // thats normal
05:41<OwenS>Thats normal?!
05:41<OwenS>What programming anguage have yoy been using?!
05:41<Liza>yes for text :P
05:41<Liza>for typeing comments inside programs :P
05:41<Liza>like :P /* */
05:41<Liza>anyway reading
05:41<OwenS>Oh yeah the comments are normal. Nothing else is
05:41<Akoz>that isnt part of the nfo
05:42<OwenS> is the NFO reference
05:42<Akoz>this is nfo:
05:42<Akoz> -1 * 0 07 9D 04 \7= 01 00 00 00 01
05:42<Akoz> -1 * 0 0B 03 7F FF 80
05:42<Liza>pretty close to assember :P
05:42<Liza>looks like it actualy
05:42<OwenS>No it doesn't. Believe me. It looks far worse :p
05:43<Liza>ouch, why do you guys use such a difficuly language :P
05:43<TrueBrain>10 lines, and all it can do is bitch about everything
05:43<OwenS>Ask PatchMan. It's TTDPatch's invention :p
05:43<Liza>there are plenty of easyer languages to use nowdays >.<
05:43<TrueBrain>scrap, 15 lines
05:43<OwenS>NFO is... quite old
05:43<Liza>no doupt about that
05:43<Akoz>its just so that not "anybody" can go and mess around with grfs :p
05:43<Liza>very convinient for a OPEN source prodject >.<
05:43<OwenS>Also... No programming language matches the speed
05:44<Liza>doesnt that match its speed :P
05:44<TrueBrain>Liza: can you at least try to put one line out that isn't negative in any way?
05:44<Liza>the things you copypasted has a black square after 0
05:44<Akoz><Liza> well
05:45<Liza>so i dunno if mirc norwegian language displays it correctly
05:45<OwenS>I will admit I've only seen one more baroque language than NFO. And thats the microassembly for my processor :P
05:45<Liza>-1 x 0 = o :P
05:45<TrueBrain>OwenS: try out brainfuck or whitespace or that shit
05:45<Liza>adress a\7=memory adress?
05:45<Liza>and line under i dunno -1x0 again
05:46<Liza>and a memory adress?
05:46<OwenS>TrueBrain: Perhaps I should say "more barroque programming language that someone hasn't invented as a escoteric programming language"
05:46<TrueBrain>OwenS: ;)
05:46<Liza>my language compared to this language makes c++ seem like english to me
05:47<TrueBrain>more complaining
05:47<TrueBrain>give it a rest already
05:48<Noldo>Whining will get you places
05:48<TrueBrain>wine gets me in places :p
05:48<TrueBrain>OwenS: you remind me that I had to laugh hard when I found out that a CPU has its own CPU, so to say (big state machine with code controlling that) .. it is funny to realise :p
05:48<Liza>well, i guess i could get into nfo language
05:49<OwenS>TrueBrain: Yeah. My microassembly is definitely not standard program like though :p
05:49<OwenS># Interrupt Return Instruction
05:49<OwenS>42 IRet B=ILR, Store=IP, Next=*
05:49<OwenS>* B=IPSW, Store=PSW, Next=Op
05:49<Liza>lots of black squares
05:49<OwenS>I notice the tabs have been stripped >_<
05:50<TrueBrain>like all sane clients do :p :p
05:50<OwenS>Every microinstruction encodes the address of the next one. "Gotos considered harmful" indeed
05:51<Liza>int money = 0;
05:51<Liza>money = money + 1;
05:51<TrueBrain>you got to love that shit, or run like hell :p
05:52<Liza>from and to
05:52<Liza>and int money declares where money is found
05:52<Liza>in memory that is :P
05:52<Liza>so i guess nfo you have to type the adresses manualy?
05:52<Liza>0x0AF010A1 = so on :P
05:54<Alberth>NFO is not really a program (although it does have conditions), more a collection of data that gets used by the OpenTTD program.
05:54<Liza>but from the looks of those lines you pasted it seem at least some stuff is readable :P so i guess your not useing referances to location where the function you wana run or something is adressed and so on makeing lts of adressing around
05:54<Liza>script language?
05:55<Alberth>each line defines something (the '-1 *' starts a new line)
05:55<Liza>ok, so no endl ;)
05:55<OwenS>TrueBrain: I guess my control unit could be described as microcode ROM, a bunch of multiplexers controlled by it's outputs and the instruction word, and a bunch of latches
05:56<Alberth>Liza: iirc the first byte after '*' is the byte count, followed by 'byte count' bytes that express what you want. Browse the specs to get an idea of what you can do with it.
05:57<Liza>this level of programing seem bit hard core for me :P
05:59<Alberth>yes, it gets you in firm contact with bits and bytes :p
05:59<Liza>im allergic
06:01<Alberth>it is just a matter of getting used to, remember the first program that you saw, didn't it look like spanish to you? (assuming you cannot read spanish :p )
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06:03<Liza>hmm, it was actualy basic i was first in contact whit :P
06:03<Liza>handy script language
06:03<Alberth>hmm, an airport built nest to a city announces it does not accept passengers and mail any more. That cannot be good :)
06:04<Alberth>I prefer to use Python for that.
06:04<Liza>yes iv been wanting to test phyton
06:04<Liza>heard it was used in eve online
06:05<Liza>stackless phyton that is
06:06<Liza>why arnt you guys useing that language instead of nfo :P
06:07<TrueBrain>most likely because there is like 5 years between stackless python and nfo .. nfo being there first
06:07<Alberth>NFO is more just a collection of declarations, it is not really a program that is executed
06:08<Liza>sounds like its time for upgrades ;)
06:08<TrueBrain>sounds more to me it is time for an attitude change and respect a bit more what is done
06:08<TrueBrain>planetmaker: what was it about starting a ignore list? :p
06:09<Alberth>Also, NFO is large and complex. Several have tried to make something better, but doing that means either that you can support only a subset, or the 'better language' explodes in size and complexity.
06:09<Liza>true that ottd runs pretty smooth
06:09<Alberth>and a subset is no good :)
06:10<Alberth>last but not least, NFO may look horrible, but once you get to understand it, it is really not that difficult.
06:11<Alberth>(since you just have a bunch of data declaration lines)
06:11<Liza>is there some webpage that has some help files on nfo?
06:11<Liza>something to get started on?
06:11<TrueBrain> (sigh ...)
06:12<Alberth>originally NewGRF's for just for adding graphics
06:13<Liza>then there might be problems adding r&d
06:13<Liza>newgrf seem to be a script language
06:14<Liza>some stuff can actualy need a main program modification
06:14<Akoz>so do it in the program code
06:14<Akoz>easier there anyway.. since you know cpp :)
06:15<Liza>unless whole game is seperated into newgrfs, like a new button in gui for r&d?
06:16<Alberth>now we come back to my thinking aloud :)
06:16<Liza>well, in spring\ca they removed gui from client, and put it into luaui, so there wasnt a default user interface
06:16<Liza>people pretty much made custom interfaces based on what they wanted and liked makeing buttons and so on
06:17<TrueBrain>I see you have much to do Liza
06:17<Liza>hmm, Alberth do you know about ottd gui?
06:18<Alberth>Hmm, would I know? I have been working on that for the past year or two, or so :p
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06:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16912 /trunk/ (33 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: split waypoint.h in waypoint_base.h and waypoint_func.h
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06:19<Liza>so, its possible to modify useing newGRF?, and or possibly replace the whole gui?
06:19<Liza>in case i wana try on a modification where i can raise the fontsize on things :P
06:19<TrueBrain>fontsize is in openttd.cfg, much easier
06:19<Liza>ok ;) but i was speaking theoreticaly
06:20<Liza>change out all the menus and such
06:20<Alberth>you can change the graphics, as eg done in OpenGFX. There are severe limitations atm since all buttons, labels, etc have fixed size.
06:20<Alberth>I am working on getting that improved.
06:21<Alberth>Ammler: r&d: research and development
06:21<Liza>i just like to mention, in spring we have no fixed images on menus and such
06:21<Liza>well exept unit icons
06:21<TrueBrain>well, it seems you should join that game
06:21<Liza>but that of corse could be replaced too
06:21<Liza>im just wondering if newgrf allows stuff like that
06:21<Liza>so i know limitations and such
06:22<planetmaker>well... you can describe vehicles, industries, houses
06:22<planetmaker>you can describe costs and interaction of all those
06:22<Alberth>you can define all the graphics. Not sure what 'change the menu' would mean
06:23<planetmaker>and you can replace pretty all graphics
06:23<planetmaker>but you cannot yet change sizes of menus or alter window layouts
06:23<Liza>ok, that was what i was wondering
06:23<Alberth>so for the r&d, I was proposing an interaction between an industry and a vehicle
06:24<Liza>that sounds pretty nifty
06:24<Alberth>yep, you can control a large part of the game mechanics from NewGRFs
06:25<Liza>well what i was originaly thinking when rnd was useing the finances table and add a button there
06:25<Liza>but i guess sending spesific resources to a place could be good too
06:25<Liza>changes too? so you cant have a static rail just feeding it?
06:26<Liza>adds to gameplay and challenge for the purpose of getting advantage ?faster trains? ?earlyer trains?
06:27<Alberth>I don't know the limitations of NewGRF, but in theory, all of that.
06:28<planetmaker>But afaik you cannot control _who_ actually gets offered a train (type).
06:28<planetmaker>So it's all or no one.
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06:28<planetmaker>and you cannot control who gets the advance offer (12 month before the actual introduction)
06:28<Liza>then how does that 1 year advance thingy work
06:28<planetmaker>I *think*. Not 100% sure though
06:28<Liza>in game right now when you get a random offer
06:28<Liza>it gives exclusive access for just one player
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06:29<planetmaker>one random company gets that offer. If declined anohter gets it. Also just *afaik* - not necessarily 100% correct
06:29<Alberth>I don't know, you'd have to read the source code for that.
06:29<Liza>yes but that has the nessessary factor
06:30<Liza>for the effect were seeking :P
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06:31<Alberth>for single player, it would still kind of work.
06:31<Alberth>and it gives a cheap test bed for trying whether it is really so much fun
06:31<Liza>hmm, well if we find out about that offer thingy how it works
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06:31<Liza>then it can be edited and modifyed
06:31<Alberth>alternatively, make a patch
06:33<Liza>hmm i guess i could take a look in source code of ottd
06:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r16913 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Signal, train depot, and waypoint windows switched to using nested widget tree.
06:35<planetmaker>he, seems like you're removing all the old window stuff now, eh, Alberth ? :-)
06:36<Liza>about time
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06:37<Ammler>Alberth: thanks :-)
06:38*planetmaker wonders how many different windows there are in OpenTTD. Albert might know from tiresome experience :-)
06:38<planetmaker>+h :-P
06:39<Liza>isnt windows = windows + wonder?
06:39<@Belugas>iirc, there is an enum for those window types, planetmaker
06:39<@Belugas>easy to find out
06:39<planetmaker>Liza, look at the source code before you judge "about time" for those changes :-)
06:39<TrueBrain>Belugas: but there are more windows than windows types :p
06:40<planetmaker>Belugas, true. I totally forgot about that :-)
06:40<planetmaker>it gives an indication at least.
06:40<TrueBrain>the underline, yes
06:40<@Belugas>TrueBrain, htat is called a window of opportunities
06:40*Belugas ducks
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06:40<planetmaker>hahaha :-)
06:40<TrueBrain>lol :)
06:41<@Belugas>hello, by the way
06:41<planetmaker>salut Belugas - also btw :-)
06:41<TrueBrain>oh .. yes .. hello Belugas
06:42<Liza>Hi Belugas
06:42<Alberth>planetmaker: 112 on last count :p
06:43<planetmaker>he, wow.
06:43<planetmaker>great opportunity to increase your commit count :-P
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06:51<@Belugas>nice job Alberth. very nice.
06:51<Liza>112 number of times you changed something?
06:51<@Belugas>wife's shower is over, see in in an hour or so
06:51<@Belugas>Liza... please...
06:51<Liza>iam just asking
06:52<Alberth>no 112 windows exist in the game
06:52<Liza>sorry, i wasnt paying attention for a while
06:52<Liza>im playing ottd ;)
06:56<Alberth>planetmaker: well, 10 or so are really interesting, the other 92 are a lot of 'almost the same as the previous one'
06:56<planetmaker>:-) Sure, I'd assume so.
06:57<planetmaker>Actually it'd be a pain, if it was different actually. And IMO it would't speak favourably of the design then :-P
06:58<Liza>are we talking about windows in game like finances table and such?
06:59<Liza>nifty ;)
06:59<Liza>i like the graph tables best ;)
06:59<Alberth>and the toolbars and the error boxes and the intro-screen, and the etc etc
07:00<Alberth>graph tables are easy, just a canvas with free drawing of lines :)
07:00<Liza>but it makes you think you are a corporation leader ;)
07:00<Alberth>order window and network windows are much more difficult
07:02<Alberth>Liza: we do that to make the game more addictive ;)
07:03<Liza>well exept for all the distance mineing in game where you place a tiny part of a station touching the factory you wana get stuff from then just place the actual station nearby >.<
07:03<Liza>but i guess thats just a setting that people can allow or disallow on their servers
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07:06<planetmaker>people should not just go "I don't like that playing style, let's forbid it". It shows sooo limited world view and sooo limited tolerance for other views...
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07:06<Liza>yes, if i was server admin id disable it, i prefer when station of one is touching all the parts that it contain
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07:07<Liza>and i wouldnt mind the distance from factory to consumer was calculated from those two and not where the stations where placed :P
07:07<Alberth>planetmaker: it is another form of finding 'the best', which doesn't exist in many cases.
07:08<Liza>difficulty is sorta nerfed when you can place station anywhere as long as you can place another part that is in contact whit
07:08<Liza>so people dont realy need to find work around to get around your stations to get to same place
07:08<Liza>seeing the competition will built on the far bakside of where its sending to
07:08<Liza>makeing all the rails pretty straightforward :P
07:09<Liza>but thats just me saying how id like a more challenged game
07:10<Liza>its also noticeably easyer to place stuff inside town then link outside now whit the new nice streetstations
07:11<Noldo>you want to click more?
07:11<Liza>sure if you wana put it like that
07:11<Liza>2 clicks is what it takes now whiout much planing
07:12<Liza>station inside, station outside linked
07:12<Liza>doesnt need to look at town layout or find best spot
07:13<planetmaker>and it's sooo easy: just impose those limits upon yourself. And play that way.
07:13<planetmaker>doesn't even need any programme intervention
07:13<planetmaker>but complaining that others don't play that way... well.
07:13<Liza>in a anycase playing on those servers where you need to grow a town, its pretty impossible to win whiout useing every possible shortcut
07:14<Liza>cus everyone "will" be useing them
07:14<Liza>its like a switch thats allways enabled :p if you arnt playing like them then, too bad you have no chance :P
07:15<Liza>takes longer to start off if your building your 7or8 lenght station, when the guy your competeing against builds a 1 station next to you and a massive train and send it off :P, sure he loads slower but he gets it back by distance he covered :P
07:15<Liza>and some extremes that iv seen they just send the train to depot at end and sell and rebuy it back at start
07:15<Liza>til they can fund lots of basic operations
07:16<Liza>theres realy no planing that goes into the lines, straight as possible easy as possible or dont build
07:16<Liza>game is on hard, but thats not noticed at all
07:17<Liza>produceing faster money than they can spend so loan button doesnt need touching even just to repay, seeing interest is nearly nothing :p
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07:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16914 /trunk/ (16 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: split Station and BaseStation into different files
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07:47<Noldo>is this old news?
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07:52<@SmatZ> hmm
07:52<@SmatZ>that's not true
07:53<Noldo>which part?
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07:54<@SmatZ>The user then needs to install TTD (for example under Wine).
07:54<@SmatZ>There is no script or handy installer to automate this.
07:55<@SmatZ>there is on windows :)
07:55<@SmatZ>indeed no pause mode in fact.
07:56<@SmatZ>it seems the author prefers simutrans
07:56<@SmatZ>isn't he a simutrans dev/contributor?
07:57<@SmatZ>and he certainly plays ottd without newgrfs
07:57<Noldo>well, it's a matter of preference anyways
07:58<Noldo>I couldn't stand the graphics in simultrans and didn't give me sence of archivement fast enough
08:01<@SmatZ>anyway, I don't think there's any war between simutrans and openttd and locomotion and...
08:02<@SmatZ>and ttdpatch of course ;)
08:03<Noldo>well users might see it as more of an ideological choice :)
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08:11<Liza>simutrans wanst that greath, i wouldnt put it in league whit ottd :P
08:13<Alberth>that would have killed the whole article :)
08:13<Liza>poor article :x
08:14<fonsinchen>Also he doesn't mention grf at all
08:14<fonsinchen>and then states that simutrans is more extendible than ottd
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08:16<@SmatZ>fonsinchen: I still have smallmap_zoom in my list-of-things-to-do ;)
08:16<@SmatZ>sorry, I am quite busy nowadays :(
08:16<@SmatZ>having fun on holidays and such :)
08:17<Liza>well simutrans has that thing about people actualy have places they want to go
08:17<Liza>and tad more complexity to factorys and such
08:17<Liza>and the underground buildable tunnels
08:17<Liza>and bridges untop of bridges i dunno diagonaly too :P
08:18<Liza>actualy bridges that you can turns in would be nice, same whit undeground in ottd :x
08:18<fonsinchen>smatz, smallmap-zoom has some bug anyway. See the last post of Alberth in that thread. I'll let you know when I've found out about that.
08:18<Noldo>lot's of things would be nice
08:19<Liza>yes :)
08:19<@SmatZ>fonsinchen: ah, thanks :)
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08:37<Liza>arg that monkey sound is giveing me nightmares, they should realy take out that sound whenever near a jungle in ottd :x
08:37<Liza>just think of the kittens!
08:38<Liza>im playing on desert map see?
08:39<Noldo>what does it have to do with kittens?
08:39<Liza>nothing, i said think of the kittens
08:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16915 /trunk/src/signal.cpp: -Fix (r16909): signal updates didn't propagate through waypoints
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08:47<Liza>is there a way to set default serviceing of trains to currentmaxreliability-20% instead of 150 days
08:47<Liza>cus i swear that 150 day seem to kick in even if it unintentionaly went into serviceing
08:47<Liza>unless i click goto service
08:49<Liza>or it has a order spesificly saying so too
08:51<Alberth>fonsinchen: seems to fix the problem.
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>yay... i have excellent news
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>i found 3 more switches
08:52<Alberth>ie don't store negative values in an enum :)
08:54<Liza>what about a bool?
08:55<fonsinchen>hmm, I have to admit that was a hack
08:55<fonsinchen>However plain int is much less descriptive than ZoomLevel ...
08:55<Liza>store the negative in positive manner :P in a 2ndary number
08:55<Alberth>why not add a few more values
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08:56<Alberth>or must normal == 0 ?
08:56<fonsinchen>yes, otherwise other things freak out
08:56<fonsinchen>I had posted a patch where I changed that, but that was ... not so well received.
08:58<fonsinchen>I mean, you can't set ZOOM_LVL_MIN to something smaller than ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL. Otherwise the blitter will get extremely slow as it has to generate lots of large sprites.
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>relying on the value that an enum constant has is... weird...
08:58<Liza>constant :P
08:58<Liza>wait you cant trust a constant?
08:58<Alberth>Liza: plz quite the noise
08:59<Liza>that was a question
08:59<fonsinchen>So you can of course still define smaller zoom levels than ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL, but then it's even more hackish.
08:59<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: you mean that using an enum for its value you find weird? :)
08:59<TrueBrain>(not following the rest of the conversation :p
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>no... relying on the value to never change is weird...
09:00<TrueBrain>I don't follow that reasoning, but okay :)
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... i'm not following the conversation either ;=
09:01<fonsinchen>Actually it doesn't rely on normal to be 0, but it does rely on normal to be the smallest zoom level.
09:02<Alberth>if I understand you right, ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL can be eg 4, as long as ZOOM_LVL_MIN == ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL.
09:03<TrueBrain>when I rewrote the zoom-system, I made 2 zoom-in levels, so that is doubtful :p
09:03<Alberth>if so, what happens if I set ZoomLevel to ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL-1 then?
09:03<Alberth>euh, I mean 'zoom' of course
09:04<Liza>smoothing between zooms would be nice instead of just hopping between zooms
09:04<fonsinchen>TrueBrain, those zoom in levels must have vanished in the mean time
09:04<Alberth>Liza: code is in src/smallmap_gui.cpp
09:04<TrueBrain>Alberth: the only 'problem' is that blitters fail when you start to zoom-in .. but SmatZ has a patch for that :p (sorry if I don't follow the conversation, but okay :p)
09:04<fonsinchen>at least there is no trace of them in the code
09:05<TrueBrain>nope, because the blitter can't handle them
09:05<TrueBrain>not without glitches or heavy rewriting :)
09:05<fonsinchen>Alberth, at the moment ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL - 1 would be negative and trigger your bug
09:05<Alberth>TrueBrain: are you talking about a viewport or just the smallmap ?
09:06<TrueBrain>I am talking about ZOOM_LVL_XXX
09:06<TrueBrain>and their helpers in zoom_func.h :p
09:06<fonsinchen>setting ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL to some arbitrary value > 0 is equally as hackish as defining zoom levels < ZOOM_LVL_MIN
09:06<Alberth>fonsinchen: Can "if I understand you right, ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL can be eg 4, as long as ZOOM_LVL_MIN == ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL" ?
09:06<TrueBrain>ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN should always be 0, never any negative value
09:06<fonsinchen>see ...
09:06<Alberth>fonsinchen: assume we add a few additional zoom levels between 0 and 4 :)
09:06<TrueBrain>the idea about ZOOM_LVL is this: BEGIN starts at 0, END ends at N, the rest is between, where NORMAL is the normal zoom
09:07<TrueBrain>want zoom-in, put them above NORMAL (and assign the first zoom-in level 0)
09:07<fonsinchen>you can't make ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN < ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL without the blitter freaking out
09:07<Alberth>yes, and NORMAL does not need to be 0
09:07<TrueBrain>fonsinchen: if you keep BEGIN at zero, you can
09:07<Liza>ah, Alberth thats readable code i tought you guys were working in nfo?
09:07<Liza>i were just assumeing you guys were talking in higher programing language for understandingpurpose of what needed to be done
09:08<Alberth>Liza: not me :)
09:08<@SmatZ>Alberth: fonsinchen TrueBrain some architectures have enums unsigned by default
09:08<@SmatZ>sorry I didn't follow whole converstaion
09:08<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I have the same problem :)
09:08<TrueBrain>I wonder why they tried to assign a negative value in the first place
09:09<fonsinchen>the problem is that ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN and ZOOM_LVL_END are referenced in various places for example to generate sprites or for the zooming of the main map etc.
09:09<Alberth>fonsinchen: ZOOM_LVL_MIN = 4, ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL = 4, zoom = 3 , ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN = 0 , ZOOM_LVL_END >= 4, what would happen?
09:09<TrueBrain>Alberth: I don't see why MIN exists, while there is BEGIN :p
09:09<Alberth>MIN may be just a hint to the blitter or so, and have the wrong name
09:09<TrueBrain>fonsinchen: BEGIN and END are not used in the code
09:10<TrueBrain>(okay, BEGIN is in sound.cpp, but that clearly is a big)
09:10<TrueBrain>MIN seems to indicate the first zoom level, when buttons disable and stuff :p
09:10<fonsinchen>I'll repost that patch where I had changed the zoom levels ...
09:10<@SmatZ>still, making zoom-in for trunk is useless
09:11<Alberth>fonsinchen: it is possible that we need eg a minimal blitter constant or so
09:11<TrueBrain>let me put it this way: when I wrote zoom_XXX, I had zoom-in values :) (so the system is designed like that)
09:11<TrueBrain>I agree with SmatZ, zoom-in values are silly
09:12<TrueBrain>page not found
09:14<TrueBrain>NEVER assign a negative value to an enum
09:14<TrueBrain>that should be clear by now
09:14<TrueBrain>BEGIN = 0, IN_8X = 0, rest auto-enum (so ++)
09:15<fonsinchen>it won't help, though
09:15<Alberth>and most likely the zoom and the blitter are coupled wrong, and need fixing/extending
09:15<fonsinchen>the problem is the difference between BEGIN and NORMAL
09:15<TrueBrain>if you would have read the zoom_func helpers, you would have noticed they all make theirself relative to NORMAL
09:16<fonsinchen>I tried
09:16<TrueBrain>BEGIN is NEVER used outside that enum
09:16<fonsinchen>then I guess 0 is used somewhere
09:16<@SmatZ>BEGIN is used in blitters
09:16<@SmatZ>when encoding
09:16<TrueBrain>int izoom = zoom - ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL; <- that is how they are made relative
09:17<TrueBrain>oh, you are right SmatZ, forgot -R :p
09:17<@SmatZ> for (ZoomLevel z = ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN; z < ZOOM_LVL_END; z++) {
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09:17<TrueBrain>fonsinchen: but yeah, the blitter doesn't understand zoom-in stuff
09:17<TrueBrain>make them start at NORMAL or what ever fixes it
09:17<fonsinchen>start them at NORMAL and terminate them at END?
09:17*Alberth agrees
09:18<TrueBrain>then you only do the zoom-out levels
09:18<TrueBrain>that is the most logic solution ;)
09:18<Alberth>or even introduce a new constant for it
09:18<@SmatZ>BEGIN and END should be used for iterating over all enum values
09:18<@SmatZ>so if ZOOM_LVL_MIN = -1, then ZOOM_LVL_BEGIN = -1 too
09:19<fonsinchen>well, I can do that. But I'll bet that as soon as I post that patch some of you will disagree.
09:19<TrueBrain>boo-hoo :) Welcome to the real world :)
09:19<fonsinchen>So I try to make my patches touch as little unrelated code as possible.
09:19<TrueBrain>I agree with Alberth, using _MIN or a new constant might make more sense for later additions
09:19<Noldo>more separate patches!
09:19<@SmatZ>patch using zoom-in for minimap has very low chance of getting includeed in trunk
09:20<@SmatZ>that's all
09:20<@Belugas>we are so nasty ;)
09:20<@Belugas>and bitchy
09:20<@SmatZ>so I don't quite see the purpose of converstaion about ZOOM_IN_ levels
09:20<fonsinchen>if I have to maintain it myself anyway ... why all the hassle?
09:20<TrueBrain>just don't abuse the system by going under BEGIN :p
09:20<@SmatZ>then you don't have to 100% stick with OTTD coding style :)
09:21<planetmaker>99.5% will suffice :-P
09:21<@Belugas>or if you insist on BEGIN, switch to Delphi..
09:21<@Belugas>.... joke...
09:21<planetmaker>you may add an additional space somewhere :-P
09:21<TrueBrain>lol @ Belugas
09:21<@SmatZ>on the other hand, I have been planning some ZOOM_LVL_IN for viewports for long time
09:22<planetmaker>good ol' times of Turbo Pascal...
09:22<@SmatZ>not that long as TrueBrain, but...
09:22<TrueBrain>SmatZ: but you fixed the single pixel row error :p
09:22<TrueBrain>I never managed :(
09:23<fonsinchen>so I'll make that zoom level in smallmap an int until someone else makes more zoom levels for other windows. Then I'll change it back.
09:23<TrueBrain>yeah ... good solution (NOT!)
09:23<fonsinchen>But it doesn't matter anyway as smallmap-zoom will be part of my fork.
09:23<TrueBrain>but go ahead ;) Then fr sure it wn't be included :)
09:23<TrueBrain>what happens t my o ...
09:24<@SmatZ>fonsinchen: I hope I am not bad to you or so :) I hope you understand including zoom-in-minimap in trunk is useless
09:24<@SmatZ>or at least, not useful
09:24<fonsinchen>it's only useless if you don't intend to ever include cargodist
09:24<TrueBrain>SmatZ: but my 32bpp gfx!!! :p
09:25<planetmaker>SmatZ, fonsinchen : zoom-out would be useful on mini-map
09:25<TrueBrain>planetmaker: zoom-in, we talk about :p
09:25<fonsinchen>And you can easily reduce the zoom limits in smallmap-zoom to only allow zoom out
09:25<@SmatZ>fonsinchen: once (if) cargodist is included, then zoom-in-minimap can be included too
09:25<planetmaker>for moderately bigger maps it's hard to get an overview which fits on the screen
09:25<planetmaker>TrueBrain, I know.
09:25<fonsinchen>the problem is that cargodist can never be included as one single patch#
09:25<@SmatZ>planetmaker: yeah, that's my point :) zooming-out is definitely useful :)
09:26<Alberth>fonsinchen: it is too big and complicated to do that any way
09:26<fonsinchen>You know, for that exact reason I'm maintaining about 10 git branches
09:26<fonsinchen>one of them is smallmap zoom
09:26<planetmaker>fonsinchen, 10 branches for one cargodist?
09:26<planetmaker>fonsinchen, ever thought about a patch queue then instead?
09:26<@SmatZ>but why include 1 patch while others will never be included
09:27<fonsinchen>if that is the case, then you don't need to include that one
09:27<planetmaker>fonsinchen, you're not German, are you?
09:27<fonsinchen>yes, I am
09:27<@SmatZ>yeah, and it hasn't been decided to include cargod?st yet
09:27<planetmaker>what an abuse domain name, then
09:28<planetmaker>well... not abusive
09:28<fonsinchen>isn't it nice ...
09:28<planetmaker>not sure I want to visit swinger clubs...
09:28<@Belugas>planetmaker, i'm still deeply on it, every day of the week ;)... well.. not Turbo Pascal... but still Pascal :D
09:28<@SmatZ>like, zoophilia?
09:29<@SmatZ>or just zoo full of sex :)
09:29<planetmaker>oh... :-) still used in production environment? :-)
09:29<planetmaker>SmatZ, like fuck-zoo
09:29<fonsinchen>so, ok: I'll split up smallmap zoom in three different parts: 1. smallmap zoom out, 2. ZoomLevel changes 3. smallmap zoom in
09:29<@Belugas>Delphi is the evolution of Turbo Pascal, yes
09:29<fonsinchen>then I hope that 1. and 2. will eventually be accepted
09:30<fonsinchen>is there a chance for that?
09:30<Noldo>fonsinchen: I though you hoped your whole big pack of patches will eventually be accepted?
09:30<TrueBrain>fonsinchen: if you make a small patch which replaces BEGIN with MIN (or maybe rename MIN to MAP_MIN so you can later add SMALLMAP_MIN or what ever), that should never give any real problem accepting
09:30<TrueBrain>(assuming SmatZ agrees on it, knowing that piece of code too :p)
09:30<@Belugas>small increments, always
09:30<@Belugas>well... when making sens...
09:30<@Belugas>of course of course...
09:31<@Belugas>and not comeing from yorick.. of course of course
09:31<TrueBrain>yorick is doing well lately :p
09:31<TrueBrain>he is growing up :)
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09:32<@SmatZ>TrueBrain: ah well, seems _BEGIN / _END are only recommended :)
09:32<TrueBrain>hmm :)
09:32<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I believe they were only added to enumerate over all values .. assuming the blitter would always handle all zoom levels :p
09:32<@SmatZ>I think questions about ZOOM_LVL_MIN / _BEGIN and such will be solved by dev commiting it to trunk ;)
09:33<@SmatZ>yeah :)
09:33<TrueBrain>SmatZ: so I guess if we rename _BEGIN in the blitters to BLITTER_MIN, and assign that to NORMAL, fonsinchen will be happy :p
09:34<fonsinchen>yes, that would be nice
09:34<TrueBrain>(and I guess BEGIN and END can then be removed, and COUNT can take the place of END, but I don't care about that :p :p)
09:35<TrueBrain>maybe replace COUNT with BLITTER_COUNT too ..
09:36<@SmatZ>BLITTER_MIN ? BLITTER_COUNT ? what are those enums :)
09:36<TrueBrain>SmatZ: fonsinchen wants to split up zooms in 2 categories: 1 side smallmap, the other side blitters
09:36<TrueBrain>so that is why I suggest to name them as such too :p
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09:40<tdev><tdev> fonsinchen, thanks for working on the smallmap zoom patch :D
09:40<tdev><tdev> i created that bug ticket years ago :p
09:42<fonsinchen>you're welcome
09:52<Chruker>Are there any of the content on bananas that enable the tourist passengers?
09:52<@Belugas>i guess you are talking of TTRS
09:52<@Belugas>or ECS?
09:53<@Belugas>or both?
09:53<planetmaker>at least ECS
09:54<planetmaker>TTRS, I think, doesn't have tourists.
09:56<Chruker>the ECS Town thingy seems to have it, thanks
09:57<@Belugas>good ol' Georges
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09:59<Chruker>I tried yesterday to add the tourist busses from here: but after satisfying a requirement list from hell, I didnt get the tourist cargo...
10:00<Chruker>Is it the same george?
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10:03<Chruker>btw. who is coding the bananas site?
10:03<Ammler>Chruker: ECS
10:03<planetmaker>slow Ammler
10:04<Chruker>you get an A for effort :-)
10:04<planetmaker>haha :-)
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10:04<planetmaker>or a D for copying work of others :-P
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10:04*planetmaker hides
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10:05<planetmaker>can you prove you didn't just copy what was said above? ;-)
10:05<Ammler>I don't need :P
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10:11<Chruker>hmmm, weird the Content Download window from the main menu, sometimes fail to load the content list.
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10:12<planetmaker>fonsinchen, do you have, btw, already an updated station_gui patch by chance?
10:13<planetmaker>hm... I guess not. Last commit there 3 days ago.
10:27<TrueBrain>what is it lately that makes people join+leave in minutes?
10:27<TrueBrain>most of them on a fairly regular base
10:27<TrueBrain>@seen TheStarLion
10:27<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: TheStarLion was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 3 hours, 29 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <TheStarLion> somehow, I don't think even the most efficiant coding would manage that
10:27<Chruker>ePeek-a-boo ?
10:28<TrueBrain>they do talk ..
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10:45<@Belugas># Lots of people talk and few of them know
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10:52<fonsinchen>planedmaker, what kind of update? the performance of EstimateDestinations? no
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11:09<planetmaker>fonsinchen, no, I thought you had a repo or branch with skoz(?) improved station build gui, too. I might be wrong, though
11:09<planetmaker>I just went by the name :-)
11:10*TrueBrain waves hello to frosch123
11:11<frosch123>afternoon tb :)
11:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r16916 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix (r16909): station acceptance was reset after game load
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11:22<Liza>goodie, finaly station reset after game load, so anying beeing bugged by a wrong acceptane after save was loaded
11:22<Liza>hence i dont play single player
11:22<Liza>cant wait for next patch :)
11:24<@SmatZ>Liza: are you a bot?
11:24<Liza>why do you suggest that?
11:25<@SmatZ>Liza: your sentence was looking like you took words from the commit message, mixed them and interleaved them with some random words
11:25<Liza>why do you suggest that?
11:25<Liza>iam just kidding :P
11:25<Liza>no iam not a bot, i was just saying i cant wait til the patch gets downloadable
11:25<Liza>sometimes cargo acceptance in towns are different when i load
11:26<@SmatZ>r16909 was commited after yesterday's nightly
11:26<@SmatZ>so you shouldn't be affected by that bug
11:26<Liza>sorta annoying when i have tons of trains sending cargo
11:26<@SmatZ>if you play nightlies
11:26<Liza>no :(
11:26<Liza>i only play during daytime
11:26<@SmatZ>what revision are you using?
11:27<KenjiE20>liza is rather too close to elisa for my liking
11:27<Liza>im playing whit the install package ;)
11:27<@SmatZ>:) so 0.7.1?
11:27<fonsinchen>planetmaker, I don't have such a repo
11:27<@SmatZ>then wait for 0.8.0 :0
11:27<Liza>i havent played ottd for too long, im actualy quite new
11:27<@SmatZ>there will be that fix included :)
11:28<@SmatZ>but you weren't affected by that bug
11:28<@SmatZ>so you won't notice anything
11:28-!-Svish|eee is now known as Svish
11:28<@SmatZ>yeah :)
11:29<Liza>ah i was wondering, how often can trains breakdown?
11:29<Liza>im playing on hard of corse
11:29<@SmatZ>depends on their reliability
11:29<KenjiE20>whenever they feel like it
11:29<Liza>i mean how often is possible
11:29<Liza>directly after it recovered by a second?
11:29<KenjiE20>usually in the worst possible spot :)
11:29<@SmatZ>every now and then
11:30<Liza>or is it checked per minute?
11:30<KenjiE20>in theory it could probably breakdown immeadiately
11:30<KenjiE20>but that's probably more a sign to replace the train than anything else
11:30<Liza>realy?, whit 0 reliability it cant move?
11:30<Liza>so you just have to send another train to crash it destrying it
11:31<Liza>to get it away
11:31<KenjiE20><KenjiE20> In theory
11:31<Liza>and real world?
11:31<KenjiE20>try it and see?
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11:32<Liza>im playing on hard, and i barely got funds and my trains are breakdowning alot
11:32<@SmatZ>there is some limit
11:32<@SmatZ>like, one day + random value
11:32<Liza>hmm, makes sence
11:33<KenjiE20>check they can service properly
11:34<Liza>oh another problem i seem to have lately, is that trains sometimes while loading on a station suddenly go into waiting for free path or something
11:34<Liza>i forgot message that displays in yellow or orange
11:34<Liza>stops loading too
11:34<@SmatZ>you are changing signals around the station while there are trains
11:34<Liza>but i were building sub lines
11:35<Liza>longer out, but not changeing anything remotely close to station
11:35<@SmatZ>they are probably waiting for free path to leave the station
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11:35<Liza>at 64%?
11:35<@SmatZ>or you don't have path from that station to next station
11:35-!-Guest134 [~Dale@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:35<@SmatZ>or it is a bug
11:35<Liza>well it happends alot after i started useing the search for free path before station
11:35<Liza>of corse i place a new one after station, iv tried by spaceing them bit from station
11:36<Liza>in case i placed em too close
11:36<Liza>doesnt seem to make a difference
11:36<volta>i there, i'd like to report a *bug*, but i'm too lazy to register at the tasklist website
11:36<Liza>its ok, ill investigate bit more, its just happening bit often, i didnt notice earlyer, but i ran out of money because of it
11:36<Liza>and had to start over, train never left station, and was alone on track
11:36<volta>and i'm not sure if this bug has already been reported
11:37<Liza>thats good
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11:37<@SmatZ>if it was that evident bug, it would be most likely reported already
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11:37<Liza>well it happend alot but it seem random to when
11:38<Liza>sometimes just got to stations other at mid % when loading up
11:38<Liza>its sorta hard to notice cus the % above train still shows
11:38<@SmatZ>or wait for 0.7.2 :)
11:38<@SmatZ>or test in 0.7.2-RC2
11:39<@SmatZ>(but games saved in 0.7.2-RC2 won't load in 0.7.1)
11:39<Liza>thats too risky, i cant afford useing a unsafe build that can blow up my computor
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11:39<volta>i'm sending an old train (21 of 20yrs) to the depot, auto-renew is enabled; the train is renewed inside the depot, but no message appears that it has arrived there
11:40<@Belugas>[11:39] <Liza> thats too risky, i cant afford useing a unsafe build that can blow up my computor <--- we're not spreading viruses
11:40<DaleStan><Liza> thats too risky, i cant afford useing a unsafe build that can blow up my computor <-- because there's some guarantee somewhere that 0.7.2 won't?
11:40<@Belugas>and for what it's worth, we never blew any computger since r1
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11:41<@SmatZ>0.7.2-RC2 should have significantly less bugs than 0.7.1
11:41<Liza>yea i can wait til it becomes normal installer :P
11:41<Liza>it only happends when i use the new signals anyway
11:41<Liza>they also seem to pick some odd paths if used at more lenghty rails
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11:41<Liza>even deadend ways
11:42<@SmatZ>then your network is broken
11:42<Liza>even if the correct path was on track next to
11:42<Liza>the game is still running
11:42<Liza>i commented on it and had another player check the track
11:42<@SmatZ>train chooses dead end path only if it can't find normal path
11:42<Liza>he dunno why the train went on the 2nd rail that was unfinished
11:42<Liza>the first track left up to station it was suppose to go to
11:42<Liza>it didnt happend when i placed the signals more frequently
11:43<@Belugas>Liza, when SmatZ talks about broken network, he means your TRAINS NETWORK, not your COMPUTER network
11:43<@Belugas>yeah... haaaa....
11:43<Liza>my bad i tought you were talking about the signals in game
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11:43<Liza>;_; didnt mean to think that you were talking about that
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11:44<@SmatZ>Belugas: thanks :)
11:44<@SmatZ>I was lost :)
11:44<Liza>err, actualy i read that message wrong
11:44<Liza>i was talking about my rail lines in game
11:44<Liza>when useing the 2 new signaltypes
11:44<Liza>now im confused
11:45<planetmaker>and SmatZ probably correctly suggests that your network and / or signaling leaves much to improve.
11:45<Liza>what did belugas mean? the lines above i talked about rails and lines..?
11:45<@Belugas>we are confused by your confusion been really confused
11:45<Liza>the game is still running
11:45<planetmaker>Otherwise trains wouldn't travel the "wrong" track
11:45<Liza>the lines are pretty much the same exept i swapped out the signals to the old ones
11:45<Liza>to avoid both the bug and pathfinding odditys
11:46<planetmaker>hahaha :-)
11:46<Liza>loading bug \ pathfinding odditys downright bad or deadend paths
11:46<Liza>where the exit where its suppose to go, it just goes another way and loops a station
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11:46<planetmaker>The library is still the same. I only replaced Orwin Wells by Walt Disney
11:46<Liza>when another train just passes it by
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11:46<Liza>and goes to unload
11:46<Liza>useing same tracks
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11:47<fjb>Did you check the orders of that train?
11:47<KenjiE20>Warning: Train KenjiE20 is lost
11:47<planetmaker>good point, fjb :-)
11:47<Liza>i make a train i click where it loads from and where it goes to
11:48<Liza>2 clicks and full load
11:48<Liza>and all trains share same unload spot
11:48<Liza>i havent built any other industry to go to
11:48<planetmaker>which reminds me on an old joke: Mother angry at wally: didn't I tell you to watch the milk cooking? - Yes, I did! It was exactly 12:38 when it boiled so it came over the rim of the pot...
11:49<Liza>i dont get it
11:49<planetmaker>badly translated, I'd say :-)
11:49<planetmaker>(on my part)
11:49<KenjiE20>I got it
11:49<fjb>You could show us some screenshots or post a savegame somewhere so we could see your network.
11:50<Liza>its online
11:50<Liza>and game is still running
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11:50<Liza>its the goal speedy akoz town builder server
11:50<planetmaker>which is a heavily patched and modified server
11:50<Liza>oh, that might be it?
11:50<Liza>i did notice its nice features of !reset and other goodies
11:51<planetmaker>but then you should desync :-P
11:51<KenjiE20>and has 15thousand ! in it's name
11:51<Liza>its over 9000?
11:51*fjb avoids every server with a ! in its name.
11:51<Liza>those are trubble?
11:52*Akoz scrolls up to see what the trouble is
11:52*planetmaker uses servers with # in its name, though :-)
11:52<Liza>whats the difference?
11:52<planetmaker>Akoz, I guess there's no trouble at all :-)
11:52<Liza>exept the name part?
11:52<Liza>maybe Akoz servers are dangerusly bugged giveing a false gameplay experience?
11:52<fjb>The name shows the attitude of the admins.
11:52<KenjiE20>"look at meeeeee"
11:53<Liza>well i do admit the admins on that server kicks before warning :x
11:53<planetmaker>that's fair enough :-P
11:53<Liza>and the server rules isnt exacly followed by most, and its noticeable that new rules that doesnt show on list are in effect
11:54<Liza>like in beginning when you cant afford a long track, and your forced to build then sell to build rest of line to get train to station
11:54<Liza>then you sell train to buy it back at start
11:54<Liza>that was kick reson for me the first time
11:54<Liza>i checked rules, nothing that suggest that was not allowed, and i learned that in that server
11:54<Liza>by watching others >.<
11:54<KenjiE20>how eccentric
11:55<Liza>iv only played for like 3 days :P
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11:58<Liza>where does ottd save screenshots
11:58<KenjiE20>next to the config your using, so probably install dir, or mydocs/openttd
11:59<Liza>got buncha nice screenshots from Akoz server from regular players ;)
12:00<Liza>thats if my default upload site works :(
12:02<Liza>greath :\
12:04<volta>so? any comment on my report?
12:06<planetmaker>volta, it would need a proper report. I haven't experienced it, but I never looked for it either.
12:06<planetmaker>Make an entry at flyspray and attach a savegame which shows that behaviour.
12:07<planetmaker>also that's the only way to make sure that the persons who can deal with it will actually see it.
12:07<KenjiE20>searching for a similar/exisiting might be a good idea too
12:15<Liza>if akoz goes to his server right now and look at people starting, the players there now are useing the trick send train and sell on delivery rebuy
12:15<Liza>it seem to be used commonly
12:16<planetmaker>Akoz, do the servers have a webpage?
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12:17<Liza>but i play on his town server only
12:17<Liza>the other ones starts out in future, so its not much fun
12:17<@Belugas>hooo... that late??
12:17*Belugas runs for a lunch
12:17<Liza>yea i was wondering that too
12:17<Liza>anyway the town server starts out good :)
12:17<Akoz>planetmaker: they are part of the speedy servers now. check out
12:17<Liza>too bad about map size
12:18<Liza>and 5000 people should be changed to 10000
12:18<Liza>everyone does 5000 before 1980
12:18<Liza>starting at 1974 or something
12:18<Akoz>that's the "easy" server
12:18<Akoz>go play on the citybuilder one. the goal there is 15k
12:18<Liza>yea not too much
12:18<planetmaker>Akoz, ok. Because it's anything but easy to find. I figured somehow they are, but...
12:18<Liza>anyway future so you start whit maglev
12:19<Akoz>I know p. it'll be added to the ingame info stuff once rasco can be arsed :p
12:19<planetmaker>e.g. especially on those websites you just gave there's no description of the rules used whatsoever
12:20<Akoz>there is
12:20<Akoz>click "rules"
12:20<Akoz> Info
12:20<Akoz>Commands | Rules | Scoring | Speedy 4 | Forum | Scores
12:20<Liza>Akoz 4fun breaks alot of them rules
12:21<Liza>i got screenshots where he blocked off a town and destryed all houses before releaseing it
12:21<Akoz>then come get me when he does. Im here :)
12:21<Liza>i got screenshots of it :P
12:21<Liza>i also got screenshots where he massed traintracks around my stationsin random fasion to prevent me to compete whit him on his factorys
12:21<Akoz>theres also usually admins on at least one of the normal speedy servers depending on time of day
12:21<Liza>i was kicked by one today
12:21<Liza>by useing a trick everyone seem to use
12:22<Liza>as i mentioned above
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12:23<planetmaker>Akoz, indeed.
12:23<planetmaker>Ok, then let's rephrase: The layout of that wiki page is anything but intuitive.
12:23<Liza>and as far as rules, i typed rules ingame to see them
12:23<planetmaker>I don't expect the most important links kinda hiding in the middle of the page.
12:23<Liza>also admin or gm didnt give warnings
12:23<planetmaker>They need to be in a menu
12:23<Akoz>I agree
12:23<planetmaker>on the left hand side
12:23<Liza>i rejoined and had to ask what i had done wrong
12:23<Akoz>fortunately it's none of my doing :p
12:24<Liza>your admins in that case arnt picked carefully >.<
12:24<Liza>whenever i host 4-5 servers for spring, i only allow people i know that will do the rules correctly
12:24<Akoz>if you break "obvious" rules there are no point in warning
12:24<Liza>i typed rules before doing anything
12:25<Liza>ingame rules doesnt say anything about it and as i said everyone was doing it thats how i learned it
12:25<planetmaker>Liza, however an admin behaves, some people will always consider it wrong
12:25<Liza>if you join your server now
12:25<Liza>theres 2 players doing it
12:25<Akoz>obvious being blocking another player purposely, killing another players city in citybuilding mode, using money cheats etc
12:25<Akoz>which one liza
12:25<Liza>well 4fun does those things u mentioned now, blocking and kill city
12:25<planetmaker>Akoz, what's a "money cheat"? :)
12:25<Liza>the town was DEAD
12:25<Akoz>using the quardouble payment upon unload
12:25<Akoz>you can get 350% for each train you unload
12:26<Liza>i got screenshots if you got a place i can upload to
12:26<planetmaker>ah... a bug fixed in trunk :-)
12:26<Akoz>found and reported by yours truly
12:26<planetmaker>and good job
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12:27<Liza>also theres a newbie killer oil refinery in game
12:27<Liza>where you think your in range to unload but not at all :P
12:27<Liza>its destryed my company many times
12:27<Akoz>yes.. been there, done that
12:27<Sacro>which server?
12:27<Akoz>none of my doing ;)
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12:27<Liza>akoz city
12:28<Liza>theres a guy who has done that mistake whit oil refinery
12:28<Liza>same guy who left just now :P
12:28<Liza>who was gona do the sell train buy train
12:28<Liza>aww company was removed
12:28<Liza>lol bankrupt
12:29<Sacro>ah not one i go on / admin
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12:30<planetmaker>Akoz, the patches or so are not publicly available by chance?
12:30<planetmaker>I mean... basically the idea to offer competitive servers is a very good one :-)
12:30<Akoz>of course they are
12:31<Liza>i like how you setup the city claiming and such
12:31<planetmaker>well, that's the citybuilder goal patch. The others run the same?
12:31<Liza>but it has some problems and thats when people build long lines trough your town
12:31<planetmaker>I just wonder :-) Indeed I read that thread somewhat.
12:31<Akoz>the other speedy servers you mean?
12:32<Akoz>the plan is to make post it when rasco finishes cleaning his code a bit
12:32<Liza>oh Akoz
12:32<Akoz>*make a post about it
12:32<Akoz>but its quite messy code all of it
12:32<Akoz>as is my patch
12:32<Liza>4fun just joined game
12:33<Liza>no doupt he will build near me and try to ruin everything as much as he can :P
12:33<planetmaker>he :-)
12:33<Liza>as i said i got plentyfull of screenshots of where he destrys, blocks and such
12:33<Akoz>competition is encouraged liza
12:33<Liza>yes, he owned full map, i had one station
12:33<Akoz>and for some reason I doubt its without reason he is after
12:33<Liza>he builds it inn
12:33<Akoz>*after you
12:33<Liza>2nd time i had 2 water places on one station and had just started sending trains out when he started building on them
12:34<planetmaker>Akoz, it'd be great, if probably parts could be taken out and prepared as separate patch, e.g. as an official game ending goal or so - in order to make it trunk-worthy :-)
12:34<Liza>that was when he OWNED the whole map pretty much, not giveing me a chance to start
12:34*Sacro restarts his server
12:34<Liza>not to mention the time he destryed the whole town i started setting up operations too
12:34<Liza>that i have screenshots of that he bought the land of the whole town
12:34<Liza>before i set a house in it of corse but i had put a station in it and was out of money.. was gona send water to town
12:35<Liza>bought up, destryed ALL houses
12:36<planetmaker>Akoz, and maybe it's an idea to also run the servers using AP+ or so and connect them to IRC - or are they even?
12:36<Liza>hes useing the train sell method
12:36<Liza>check 4funs stations
12:36<Liza>4fun now is breaking the rules
12:36<Liza>1 stations ending whit a depo
12:36<Liza>gee, i wonder what hes gona do
12:36<Liza>by 1 stations i mean 1x1
12:36<@Belugas>anyone can translate whatever Liza is saying? too many words i cannot read
12:36<planetmaker> /mute Liza
12:36<Liza>i can explain
12:36<@Belugas>no, better write properly
12:37<Liza>you buy a train send it to a 1x1 station, load full send to other station, unload get money instant send it to depo at the back of that station its also 1x1 in lenght. sell train buy new at start
12:37<Liza>servers up, its the akoz town, find 4fun, watch him now ;)
12:38<Liza>hes on south side of map
12:38<Sacro>that's quite a nifty trick
12:38<Liza>and if you check wiki, agains the rules ;)
12:38<planetmaker>Liza, it was a kind request to drop l33t spe4k and use proper punctuation.
12:38<Liza>sorry, im not english :(
12:38<planetmaker>And look at the top of the channel list... he might mean it :-)
12:38<@Belugas>so, most of us are not either
12:39<Liza>but im typeing as best i can in english
12:39<planetmaker>yes, but you know that it's "it's loading" and not "its loading" etc pp
12:39<planetmaker>and whit 4funs hes gona
12:39<Liza>i dont have a , up button
12:39<Liza>norwegian keyboard
12:39<planetmaker>Of course you do have an apostrophe.
12:40<Liza>never seen one on a norwegian keyboard
12:40<Liza>we dont use that symbol
12:40<@Belugas>looks like they don't have question mark either ^_^
12:40<Liza>no that i have :P
12:40<Akoz>you also have '
12:40<Akoz>its right next to Æ on your keyboard
12:40<Liza>enter is next to æ
12:41<Akoz>then you dont have a normal keyboard
12:41<Liza>å above and next to å i got ¨¨^^~
12:41<planetmaker>And Liza, I'm sure Norwegian uses the apostrophe in some cases, too.
12:41<+glx>please use utf8 too
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12:41<Akoz>the link planetmaker gave is the layout of a normal norwegian keyboard
12:41<@Belugas>bonk bonk bonk
12:42<Liza>that doesnt look like my keyboard
12:42<Liza>do internett search on a4 keyboard
12:42<Liza>enter is next to æ
12:42<fjb>Poor Belugas.
12:42<Akoz>I honestly don't care
12:42<Akoz>there is no keyboard coming without '
12:42<Akoz>unless its some weird minilaptop with special function keys to type it
12:42<planetmaker>^^ indeed. It's even part of ASCII
12:43<Liza>i see the button on my laptop
12:43<planetmaker>Akoz, even then I cannot imagine.
12:43<Akoz>lol smatz
12:43<@Belugas>ever saw a numeric only keyboard?
12:43*Belugas runs
12:43<Liza>keyboard is different on it
12:43<Liza>Akoz are you on your town server?
12:43<Liza>watch :P
12:43<Liza>4funs train that is ;)
12:43<Liza>it will never return~
12:44<Akoz>planetmaker: do you know if anyone released the patch that disables train selling if the train got profit and is less than 1 year old?
12:45<planetmaker>not that I know of, Akoz
12:45<Akoz>I've seen it implemented on several servers
12:45<Liza>well i was instant kicked when i did that whiout knowing, and i was just doing what most other people do in game
12:45<planetmaker>really? hm
12:45<Akoz>should be easy to implement I guess
12:45<planetmaker>you repeat yourself, Liza :-P
12:46<Liza>i can,t help it;)
12:46<Liza>nothing happend
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12:46<planetmaker>something like if (profit > 0) && (age < oneyear) continue;
12:46<Liza>Akoz watched, 4fun still plays, and i got overabundant of screenshots here of what else he does
12:47<Liza>oh well looks like 4fun is gona sell another train ;)
12:50<Liza>i sorta figured he knew Akoz
12:51<Liza>yea, he was treatening me alot earlyer
12:51<Liza>when i started building competitioning against him when i was given a fair chance at same factory
12:51<@Belugas>google translate has died
12:52<Liza>hmm, was that the treatening word..?
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12:53<@Belugas>that and earlyer, sorta
12:53-!-fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:53<@Belugas>but i guess i'm a little picky today
12:54<Liza>how do i type them correctly?
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12:54<@Belugas>well.. depends what you mean
12:54<planetmaker>earlier and sort of
12:54<@Belugas>what did you mean with sorta?
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12:54<Liza>sort of, i guess
12:55<planetmaker>Belugas, that's the same thing like "gonna", I think - or along the same lines
12:55<planetmaker>Might be even in dictionaries
12:55<@Belugas>ok... so a little advice, forget the slang language, the shortcuts and all.
12:55<@Belugas>planetmaker, not sure abour that...
12:56*planetmaker 's quite sure about it :-) Or... I'm sorta sure about it :-P
12:56<@Belugas>thing is, Liza, if you wnt to learn a language, do not start by the defaults ;)
12:56<Liza>wiki shows up sorta
12:56<Liza>under english that is
12:56<Akoz>aye let's go back to ... sorry *starts over* let us go back to full sentences without aphostrophs
12:56*Belugas picks up Webster's dico
12:56<@Belugas>a REAL one
12:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16917 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: fix some GCC 4.5 'case X is not in enum Y' warnings
12:57<Liza>also isnt 1337(ieet) speak more whit symbols and numbers?
12:57-!-MizardX [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:57-!-MizardX- is now known as MizardX
12:57<Akoz>is there any point reporting a bug in a function if the function is currently never called in a way causing the bug?
12:57<planetmaker>if you ask me, "sorta" is fine, though slang.
12:58<planetmaker>Akoz, sure. Just report it :-)
12:58-!-George [~George@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:58<Liza>well ill try speaking the english you guy,s speak here.
12:58<planetmaker>call it hidden or whatever. I've seen those. Not sure though whether it was "fixed".
12:58<planetmaker>:-) guys :-P
12:58-!-Fuco [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:59<planetmaker>And, Liza , people usually don't mind honest mistakes. They happen. Most people here aren't native speakers.
12:59<Liza> a4tech keyboard
13:00<Liza>in case you were wondering about my missing keys >.>
13:01<Liza>i don,t see the keyboard layout on the website you sent link for on norwegian keyboard,s
13:03<planetmaker>I don't expect Austrian companies to sell Norwegian keyboards :-P
13:03<planetmaker>But expect Austrian keyboards to posses an apostrophe key, too
13:03<Liza>well it was the cheepest keyboard i could find
13:04<Liza>so i could afford to buy pc part,s that matter
13:05-!-markk [] has joined #openttd
13:05<planetmaker>Liza, plural "s" is not needed to separate from words :-)
13:05-!-markk is now known as Markk
13:05<Liza>nono, it,s a top , just think of my , as upside down
13:05<+glx>I'm quite sure you have apostroph on your keyboard
13:06<planetmaker>An apostrophe is used in English when possession is indicated (the house's door) or when something is left out "it's not clear" = "it is not clear"
13:06<KenjiE20>what pm means is 'parts' is not possessive, and doesn't need '
13:06<Liza>maybe if i click alt and the numpad number,s i can possibly hex it out
13:06<Liza>hold on
13:07<Liza>' ah got it
13:08<Liza>39 attemt's ;)
13:08<planetmaker>that might work. But I'm 99.5% sure there's an easier way.
13:08<Liza>i guess, i could copypaste it
13:08<planetmaker>Maybe left of 1 or above one number or alike
13:08-!-OwenS [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:08<planetmaker>or somewhere between Enter and the "usual" keys.
13:08<Liza>it seem removed for the largening of enter
13:09<Liza>its quite usefull as iv never missed enter when useing my lilfinger for pushing enter
13:09<Liza>im typeing quite quickly on this keyboard :)
13:09<+glx>I hope you'll never have to code :)
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13:10<planetmaker>glx, or type a French text.
13:11<KenjiE20>according to the MS OSK the ' is listed above the CR
13:11<planetmaker>I guess if ' is missing the other accents might be missing, too :-)
13:11<KenjiE20>in both layout modes
13:13<+glx>can you type * ?
13:13<Sacro>seems not :(
13:13<Liza>its on numpad
13:13<Akoz>I can type * too.. do I get a cookie?
13:14<Liza>that's unfair, i typed * first i should get two cookies!
13:14*KenjiE20 steals Akoz' cookies
13:14<+glx>' should be on the same key than *
13:14<Akoz>evil ken
13:15<Sacro>I pulled a bank cashier once
13:15<Sacro>Took her back home and got down to it but I found I was in the red, so I did her in arrears instead.
13:15<Liza>did is undefined?
13:15<Sacro>oops, worng channel XD
13:16*Sacro whistles nonchalently and heads back to #tycoon
13:16<Liza>is that a dirty channel?
13:16<Prof_Frink>In 'er ears? You're into aural?
13:18<Sacro>Prof_Frink: quite
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13:32<nicfer>Akoz: I have two problems in your 'city' server
13:33<nicfer>one, somebody entered my passworded company and changed the password
13:33<Liza>the password was password?
13:33<Liza>i use that password in game :P
13:33-!-TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
13:33<Liza>nobody has guessed my password
13:34<nicfer>last night I've played a game there
13:34<nicfer>I had to leave
13:34<Akoz>which company?
13:34<nicfer>then someone entered the company and changed my password
13:34<nicfer>UnderBuilder Transport
13:34<Liza>hmm, no iv had problems writeing in my own password thats password when trying to rejoin
13:34<Liza>i dunno if its a caps lock problem or hit shift if it is case sensitive
13:34<Akoz>shared your password with anyone recently?
13:35<Liza>but sometimes i just cant join a team
13:35<Liza>whit a password that i know the password of
13:35<nicfer>maybe the password were autocleaned
13:35<Akoz>I haven't modified that part of the code (or at least I think not) so theres no reason why he should be able to join your company without typing the correct password if one was set
13:36<Liza>iv had problems whit people when people ask to join my team that they are unable to get inn
13:36<Akoz>the only bug I know of is that password change packets sometimes gets rejected, meaning your password change doesnt go through causing problems for whoever you are giving your pw to to join your team
13:36<nicfer>and then the other joined with the password-less company
13:36<nicfer>do companies lose password after time in your server
13:37<Akoz>no. they get reseted completely the moment they time out
13:37<nicfer>or they get autocleaned before?
13:37<nicfer>can you check me what's the current password for it?
13:37<Liza>uncrypted passwords
13:38<nicfer>or at least reset it
13:38<Akoz>no.. but I can move you into the company since noone is using it
13:38<Akoz>then you can set it yourself
13:38<nicfer>also, I can't even observe the server
13:39<nicfer>it says: error while loading multiplayer map
13:39<nicfer>or something similar
13:39<Akoz>what error?
13:39<Akoz>try joining again
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r16918 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnaullv
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 71 changes by SmatZ
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 8 changes by Yexo
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 5 changes by agenthh
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: esperanto - 3 changes by LaPingvino
13:47-!-nicfer [~Usuario@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:47-!-DephNet[Paul] [~paul@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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13:59<TrueBrain>howdie Yexo! :)
13:59<Yexo>hi TrueBrain :)
14:00<Liza>Hi Yexo
14:04<Yexo>TrueBrain: I really like how WT3 works :)
14:04<Yexo>it makes translating easy
14:05<TrueBrain>Yexo: nice to hear :)
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15:11*Chruker is starting to get curious to see how WT3 works
15:11<Yexo>just see for yourself at
15:11<Yexo>actually I forgot to report a wt3 bug :p
15:12<Yexo>TrueBrain: when you're nog logged in, then go to login from the wt3 page, you log in, then end up on <- wrong subdomain
15:12<TrueBrain>will fix, some day :p
15:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16919 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: unify some more StringID w.r.t. their naming
15:13<TrueBrain>(you should not be redirected at all, but some browsers do, for some odd reason)
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15:21<Liza>driver killed in collition whit train?
15:21<Liza>doesnt he jump out when he sees the train
15:21<TrueBrain>yes, but while walking away, some passenger shot him for being so stupid
15:21<Yexo>maybe he jumped straight into the train
15:21<Liza>why would he do that
15:22<Liza>i pay like 600 credit a month for that bussdriver
15:22<Yexo>because he's stupid
15:22<Liza>he was basicly rich enough to buy a new buss every year :x
15:22<@Belugas>naaa.. real reason is that no one painted a picture of him running off the truck. So none coded his escape
15:22<@Belugas>so burn, you rat!
15:26*TrueBrain shoots at DOS
15:26<TrueBrain>too many undocumented shit ...
15:26<TrueBrain>and VGA driver is so hard to program ... so many IO communication ...
15:26*TrueBrain is getting crazy!
15:27<@Belugas>even moRE???
15:27<TrueBrain>the good news: I have a screen of dune2 :p
15:27<Liza>io stream ^.6
15:27<Liza>open dune?
15:27<TrueBrain>then it crashes, but I at least have a screen :)
15:27<Liza>dune could possibly be programed in ottd
15:27<Liza>it has desert maps ;)
15:27<TrueBrain>Belugas: yeah, even more .. suprising, not? :)
15:28<@Belugas>naaaa... not at all... come on here, my big fluffy bear, and let me hug you
15:28*TrueBrain tickles Belugas and runs
15:30<TrueBrain>the whole day I spend on figuring out ins and outs of DOS .. I am toast!
15:30<@Belugas>What Truebrain Fluffy
15:30<@Belugas>DOS was not really designed for graphics...
15:30<Sacro>TrueBrain: why bother?
15:31-!-TrueBrain [~truebrain@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:31<@Belugas>in fact, it was not raelly designed for much
15:31-!-TrueBrain [~truebrain@] has joined #openttd
15:31<TrueBrain>crashing IRC is fun!
15:31<TrueBrain>Sacro: why not?
15:31<TrueBrain>Belugas: it is not the graphics part that is my problem ... DOS itself is just ... well .. the specs says it sets only CX, but in the meantime, it also sets AX
15:31<TrueBrain>and apps use that :s
15:32<Chruker><Belugas> DOS was not really designed for graphics... <<< more like graphics evolved after DOS :-)
15:32<Sacro>TrueBrain: well, erm, why
15:32<TrueBrain>Sacro: when things work, it is fun :)
15:33<TrueBrain>when things don't work ... it is an endless pit of errors and problems
15:33*Yexo spend the day looking at the same code files copied over and over with some little changes
15:33<TrueBrain>Yexo: so you are toast too ;)
15:34*Prof_Frink blasts Sacro with a Heat Ray
15:34*Sacro melts
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15:37<Sacro>The G-Force, a group of highly-trained covert guinea pig spy agents, is the only team that can save the world from an evil billionaire and his army of robot appliances.
15:38<Sacro>damn copy buffer
15:38<Sacro>is what i meant
15:39<@Belugas>TrueBrain, i'm sure you do enjoy it a whole lot ;) You crave for challenges !
15:39<TrueBrain>Belugas: very true
15:39<TrueBrain>but I am now getting to that point I am annoyed too much
15:39<TrueBrain>and spend so much time on it, that it can't be considered healty
15:39<TrueBrain>without too much progress :p
15:40<@Belugas>you'd love mine... i cannot develop stuff on my station, i have to ship the library to a remote station, run the test, collect the logs, find out the problem, go to step a) until all is working
15:40<planetmaker>Sacro: a pity are the strong jpg artefacts
15:40<TrueBrain>Belugas: :s :s :s :s
15:40<@Belugas>TrueBrain, give it a few days off, be back and yuou'll have fun again :)
15:42<Sacro>planetmaker: rather it be in PNG? :P
15:42<@Belugas>by the way, were you not supposed to have a recording device of some sort sooner or later?
15:42<planetmaker>Sacro: less compression
15:42<TrueBrain>well, I managed to get one app to work, so I guess I shouldn't complain ;)
15:42<TrueBrain>Belugas: turns out: later :'(
15:42<planetmaker>but having it in png doesn't hurt :-P
15:42<TrueBrain>stupid stupid stupid fuck ups in this world :(
15:43<TrueBrain>so I canceled my order, and now I am going to buy climbing shoes instead :p
15:43<Liza>Akoz you there?
15:43*Sacro needs climbing shoes
15:43<TrueBrain>I just need new ones :p
15:44-!-Antigon [] has joined #openttd
15:45<Sacro>i don't have any :(
15:45*Sacro could also buy a rope
15:47<@Belugas>that rope is not to put around your neck
15:48*Prof_Frink has half a rope
15:48<TrueBrain>rope is useless :p
15:48<TrueBrain>(haven't used a rope in almost a year now :p)
15:48<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain is a blodderer!
15:50<TrueBrain>which half do you have?
15:50<TrueBrain>the left or right? :p
15:50*Sacro wants to go climbing now :(
15:50<TrueBrain>tomorrow I will be creating routes again :)
15:50<TrueBrain>can't wait ....
15:51*Prof_Frink hopes to hear from Cap'n Jack soon.
15:51<Prof_Frink>Should be going climbing/camping/bloddering on Dartmoor at the weekend.
15:52<Prof_Frink>It'll be nice to climb something other than limestone
15:52<Prof_Frink>welshdragon: Bouldering.
15:53<welshdragon>Prof_Frink: aah
15:54<Liza>i saved a hedgehog today, that had somhow goten itself stuck in the drain outside my house
15:54<Liza>it was the cute ;)
15:59<Sacro>bouldering isn't my thing
15:59<TrueBrain>Sacro: for years it wasn't mine ;)
15:59*Sacro is only a 4c/5a :(
15:59<TrueBrain>takes time :p
15:59*Prof_Frink likes big trad
16:00<Sacro>i bet you do ;)
16:00<TrueBrain>Google Search lies to me! :o
16:00<Prof_Frink>Get my nuts out, bring some friends along
16:00<Sacro>oh yes
16:00<Sacro>show em your length?
16:01<Prof_Frink>Sacro: Which do you prefer: grabbing big jugs or fingering cracks?
16:01<Sacro>it depends on what happens with my arse
16:02<Sacro>i like fingering cracks if my arse has something to do
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16:08<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:08<TrueBrain>hello Nite_Owl :)
16:08<Nite_Owl>Hello TrueBrain
16:09<@Belugas>Hello mister Owl
16:09<@Belugas>or.. is mister Night?
16:09<@Belugas>no.. it's mister Nite_Owl!
16:09<Nite_Owl>Hello Belugas
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16:11<ajohnsen>Hi. Can i in some way increase the menu / the font?
16:12<ajohnsen>which one is it to increase menu size?
16:13<TrueBrain>you can only increase the size of the font
16:13<TrueBrain>for everything
16:13<Yexo>but don't complain about the many graphical glitches you'll get when you increase the font
16:14<Yexo>if you use the nightlies it works correct for some windows, but with 0.7.x it does not
16:14<ajohnsen>the problem is that i run a 1680x1050 screen and i can hardly target the menu items or read the text :)
16:15<TrueBrain>use a lower resolution
16:15<@Belugas>set the resolution to 800x600 and then full screen
16:15<@Belugas>or 1024x..
16:15<Yexo>or wait for 0.8 and hope by that time all windows will resize properly
16:15<ajohnsen>using linux - would hate to change the resolution....
16:16<@Belugas>well... we told you what to do in the mean time ;)
16:16<Liza>im useing 2048x3072
16:16<Liza>two normal monitors not widescreen
16:16<Yexo>two monitors on top of eachother?
16:16<Liza>yea, i got a flatscreen 41' too but i have that on the other 3d card
16:17<Liza>side by side
16:17<Liza>linked view
16:17<Liza>and a extra view
16:17<Liza>im multitasking ;)
16:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16920 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: shuffle some strings around to simplify looking up vehicle type specific strings for a specific message
16:17<ajohnsen>Liza: can you read the text? :O
16:17<Liza>sure i can
16:17<Yexo>then your resolution is probably not 2048x3072, sould be more like 3072x2048 then
16:17<Liza>24' crt monitors of oldschool type
16:17<Liza>i dont think they produce them anymore, but they were samsung syncmaster 1100ff
16:18-!-Pygma [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
16:18*Belugas still has a 19" crt at home as main screen and is very happy with it
16:18*Sacro has a 24" lcd
16:19<@Belugas>and i have a 15'...
16:19<@Belugas>and a 30' house
16:19<@Belugas>and i'm 6' tall
16:19<Prof_Frink>I have half a 196' rope.
16:20<@Belugas>that's my man :)
16:20<ajohnsen>great - can only run 1680x1050 in fullscreen mode. guess i'll wait a bit before playing the game :)
16:20<ddfreyne>and the length of your small intestine is 20'
16:20<Liza>new hd lcds are just 1940x1080 something max
16:20<Liza>doesnt look they will get any larger in res than that even tought their size is larger than my regular monitors
16:20<Sacro>or 1920x1200
16:20<Liza>so i figured no point getting larger than 41'
16:20<Liza>hmm 1920x1080 i think dunno about 1200
16:21-!-Pygma [~quassel@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:21<Liza>i tought full hd was 1080
16:21<Nite_Owl>41' or 41"
16:21<Liza>my bad ;)
16:21<Sacro>a 41' monitor
16:21<Liza>im used to cm
16:21<LaSeandre>woah, 41 foot? impressive
16:21<Sacro>LaSeandre: that's what all the ladies say
16:21<Nite_Owl>stadium monitor I thought
16:21<Liza>that be nice
16:21<Sacro>see ^
16:21*Prof_Frink builds a model of Stonehange to Liza's dimensions
16:22<Liza>but whats the point if sound quality sucks
16:22<Sacro>what kind of sound quality does an lcd have?
16:22<Sacro>that's what I thought
16:22<@Belugas>for good sound, choose Gibson LesPaul!
16:22<@Belugas>of Fender Stratocaster
16:22*Sacro has 5.1 + THX + DD + DTS
16:23<Liza>i got headset
16:23<@Belugas>ho.. and Marshall 50w, with 4 15" stack!
16:23<Nite_Owl>Altec Lansing
16:23<OwenS>Sacro: DTS-ES Master Audio? :p
16:23<LaSeandre>sacro: unless it has those stupid built-in "Back Left+Right" you sometimes get with computer LED monitors.
16:23<Sacro>OwenS: no
16:23<Liza>Sound quality can only be bought trough cheep headsets
16:23<Sacro>LaSeandre: heh, yeah, my lcd audio is beyond crap
16:23<OwenS>Sacro: Me neither =(
16:23<OwenS>My PC sound is 2.1 via amplifier ^^
16:23<Sacro>370W of sub though... mmmmmmmm
16:23<TrueBrain>Belugas: you know your stuff ;)
16:23*Sacro fires up the Deltic
16:24<@Belugas>TrueBrain, i dream of it every day :)
16:24<OwenS>I'm planning on soon building a USB amplifier though
16:24*LaSeandre has DD 7.1 on the Full HD TV, and 2.1 on the PC
16:24<Sacro>no need for 7.1
16:24<LaSeandre>Sacro: Good work!
16:24<Sacro>tell you what
16:24<Sacro>a pacer sounds epic rattling along
16:24<Nite_Owl>although Bose makes some decent PC speakers if you have the money
16:24<LaSeandre>Sacro: was not my choice, tis my parents!
16:24<Sacro>mine are logitech z-5500s
16:25-!-ajohnsen [] has left #openttd [ - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
16:25<Sacro>LaSeandre: 7 is alright, just lacking in source material
16:25<TrueBrain>5.1 set, decoder (DTS, DD, ....), fiber to game consoles and PC .. 32" HDReady TV ... I am a happy man :)
16:25*Liza has intel extreme i7 3ghzx4, geforce ftw 295 sli, and ddr3x12gb :x so she can play ottd on max graphics
16:25*Belugas does not have "speakers" linked to his pc. a stereo unit instead
16:25<@Belugas>going through a 16 channel mixer
16:25<Liza>on all 3 screens at same time whiout lag!
16:25<Sacro>what I want is a deltic engine for the proper noise
16:25<@Belugas>and sound processing
16:25<Sacro>Liza: overkill springs to mind
16:25<OwenS>My planned amplifier: 7.1 via USB audio, direct into the amplifier, at ~25W per channel. Considering how efficient it will be (It will be a pure class D amplifier), thats quite powerful :p
16:25<TrueBrain>Belugas: I only have a nice fiber (which can carry what ever you like :p)
16:26<Liza>Sacro i saved on buying cheep keyboard
16:26<Liza>and mouse
16:26<Sacro>Liza: :(
16:26<OwenS>TrueBrain: It can only carry what the other end can download :p
16:26*Sacro has a > $60 keyboard
16:26<OwenS>decode even!
16:26<TrueBrain>OwenS: yup; yet it can carry a lot :p
16:26<TrueBrain>Belugas: yeah .. SPFID or what is it called :p
16:26<OwenS>TrueBrain: S/PDIF? :p
16:27<TrueBrain>bah, fixed a few more 'errors' in my DOS emulation layer ... yet still dune2 goes in (another) infinite loop :(
16:27*frosch123 uses a >5 year old computer
16:27<Liza>single page dimmer identifyer flager?
16:27<TrueBrain>OwenS: avoids a stupid USB audio thing btw :p
16:27<OwenS>Sony/Phillips Digital Interconnect Format
16:27<+glx>TrueBrain: still the same loop ?
16:27<TrueBrain>glx: nope, on to the next!
16:27<TrueBrain>this time it keeps on opening dune2.exe ....
16:27<OwenS>TrueBrain: This is a custom USB audio device. Takes the 24-bit 192kHz PCM direct from the PC to the amplifier :p
16:27<@Belugas>ho... ok.. i see
16:28<TrueBrain>OwenS: why bother? I have a nicer decoder which decodes .. well .. everything, and sends that to the amp :p
16:28<TrueBrain>allows much more stuff to connect to your amp :)
16:29<OwenS>TrueBrain: Because your amp more than likely then puts the audio through an analog-to-digital converter in order to generate PWM for it's amplifiers :p
16:30<TrueBrain>euh .. my amp converts signal for my amp?
16:30<TrueBrain>I only have one amp :p
16:30<Liza>you need like 3 amps
16:30<TrueBrain>pc -> decoder (pre-amp) -> amp .. first two full digital, last full analog :p
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16:30<Prof_Frink>But how many volts?
16:31<@Belugas>you mean watts?
16:31<OwenS>TrueBrain: Audio goes into decoder digital, comes out analog, goes into amp analog, gets converted to digital to drive Class-D amplifier, comes out analog again
16:31<Prof_Frink>Belugas: watt?
16:31<TrueBrain>w(h)at(t) is Joule per second?
16:31<TrueBrain>OwenS: fair enough
16:31<TrueBrain>I have no idea what my amp does
16:31<Liza>volt amp watts?
16:31<OwenS>TrueBrain: At least it probably does unless you paid a fortune for it :p
16:31<TrueBrain>didn't care ;)
16:31<TrueBrain>I paid enough for it :)
16:32<Prof_Frink>But why is a New ton so much less than an old Ton?
16:32<OwenS>My design the digital-analogue-digital stage is cut out :p
16:32<TrueBrain>and it makes enough noise ... can't git it past 50% without damaging my ears :'(
16:34<Liza>just add noise canseling
16:34<Liza>err filters
16:35<TrueBrain>@mode +q Liza
16:35-!-mode/#openttd [+q Liza!*@*] by DorpsGek
16:35<TrueBrain>I guess it is right .. adding a noise filter does help
16:36<TrueBrain>@mode -q Liza
16:36-!-mode/#openttd [-q Liza!*@*] by DorpsGek
16:37-!-Forked [] has joined #openttd
16:37<LadyHawk>that's so much easier than +b ~q:blablabla it's almost scary
16:37<TrueBrain>the fun part, +q is not listed in most clients
16:37<TrueBrain>so nobody will know in, say, 2 weeks :p
16:37<LadyHawk>too true
16:38<TrueBrain>so true, it is scary ;)
16:38<+glx>TrueBrain: on some ircd, +q has more power than +o
16:38<TrueBrain>glx: yup ... not here ;)
16:38<Forked>quiet list eh
16:38<TrueBrain>my client also says it is 'owner privileges'
16:38<OwenS>Yeah, Konversation does here
16:38<LadyHawk>setting someone owner doesnt involve a hostmask, so i assumed it was a silence ban
16:38-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
16:39<LadyHawk>not many people know about those
16:39<LadyHawk>nice way to confuse peeps
16:41<@glx>mode +h is not available either
16:41<TrueBrain>ha, figured out what goes wrong with dune2: overlays :)
16:42<TrueBrain>and nasty NASTY jumps ... using interrupts to jump to overlays .... NASTY I tell you
16:42<@glx>what are these overlays ?
16:42-!-mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
16:42<TrueBrain>DOS has little memory
16:42<TrueBrain>so you put your program in pages of, say, 4096 bytes or what ever
16:42<TrueBrain>say, classes
16:42<TrueBrain>when you need one, you load it in the memory
16:42<+glx>ha and you switch pages
16:42<TrueBrain>when you need another one, you load it over the same piece of memory
16:42<TrueBrain>20 overlay slots or what ever, and you are good to go
16:42<TrueBrain>old dirty trick
16:43<+glx>looks like cpc 6128 bankrams :)
16:43<OwenS>Except in DOS they involve RAM copies :P
16:43<TrueBrain>what it does now, is push all registers on the stack, load the overlay, jump there .. and on return recover it
16:44*Belugas remembers overlays in old turbo pascal system of his
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16:44<TrueBrain>Borland made good use of it, yes
16:44<@Belugas>was such a breakthrough
16:45<TrueBrain>problem is for me now, that the same address is reused with other code .. as I build a nice Just In Time compiler, it doesn't detect this new code, and the old code is executed :)
16:45<TrueBrain>very fucked up ;)
16:46<Liza>your editing dune2 game?
16:46<+glx>and it's "you're"
16:46<TrueBrain>but okay, I guess this is plenty of off-topic :p
16:46<OwenS>TrueBrain: Memprotect regions which have been jit'd and then get the kernel to let you know when they're written to?
16:46<TrueBrain>OwenS: problem is that I don't JIT on boundaries
16:46<+glx>TrueBrain: what was the topic ? ;)
16:47<TrueBrain>glx: ghehe :p
16:47<TrueBrain>I disabled the caching of JIT, and now it works :o :o :o :o
16:47<OwenS>TrueBrain: Does it matter if you protect extra regions? Throwing away the code shouldn't be that expensive :p
16:48<@Belugas>ok, i'm useless now... getting home
16:48<@Belugas>night night
16:48<TrueBrain>Belugas: night :)
16:48<+glx>of course without caching you don't have the problem
16:48<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
16:48<TrueBrain>OwenS: well ... then I would be throwing away code ALL the time
16:48<TrueBrain>glx: but without caching it takes 5 minutes for dune2 to get to the graphical screen :p
16:48<TrueBrain>(instead of 10 seconds)
16:49<+glx>of course :)
16:49<TrueBrain>OwenS: a page is 4k, which is mostly where a DOS program runs in
16:49<OwenS>TrueBrain: I thought they had 640k to work with? ;-)
16:49<TrueBrain>OwenS: they do
16:49<OwenS>OK, less because of DOS
16:49<TrueBrain>but code inside the 4k block is called a lot
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16:49<+glx>OwenS: they hack video memory ;)
16:50<TrueBrain>throwing that away all the time ... is as efficient as disabling the cache I guess
16:50<+glx>maybe cache with page index
16:50<+glx>or something like that
16:50<TrueBrain>[EMU] [ INT10:10 ] Not Yet Implemented <- sigh ....
16:51<TrueBrain>glx: there is nothing that indicates which overlay is loaded
16:51<OwenS>TrueBrain: It can't be as bad as throwing away the cache
16:51<TrueBrain>maybe I should make a CRC of the function, and see if it matches :s
16:51<TrueBrain>OwenS: true true
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16:51<TrueBrain>OwenS: but I am looking for a more solid solution, if possible :)
16:51<OwenS>At the very least it's a relatively easy implementation I would hope which doesn't add too much overhead to the JIT'd code
16:52<tdev>TrueBrain: get me a copy of WT-? once its done pls :)
16:52<OwenS>Solid is always great but often costs performance ;-)
16:52<TrueBrain>tdev: will do :) I hope to start next week on the new version :)
16:52<Wolf01>hello :D
16:52<tdev>what do you want to code on it?
16:52<TrueBrain>OwenS: well, what happens is this: first time you run an app, the JIT is attached. It indexes all calls and registers all functions. Then it makes a static compile of it, and you can run it without the JIT. Some functions will not be decoded, when that happens, you need to reattach the JIT
16:53<Nite_Owl>Hello Wolf01
16:53<TrueBrain>that is why the solution you suggest work only with JIT is fully attached .. when it is no longer attached, it will fail I am afraid ...
16:53<TrueBrain>tdev: sorry, I don't understand the question?
16:54<tdev>TrueBrain: whats the diff between the closed source(now) version and the next OS version?
16:54<OwenS>TrueBrain: I doubt you would get a clean binary from an app for such a messy environment as DOS anyway
16:54<TrueBrain>tdev: that it will be open source ;)
16:54<TrueBrain>OwenS: you would be suprised ;)
16:55<OwenS>And secondly if you do it's no longer a JIT binary ;-)
16:55<TrueBrain>which is the aim :)
16:55<TrueBrain>and even without the JIT, it should detect such overlay changes I guess
16:55<TrueBrain>not sure though ... it is all a bit tricky ...
16:56<tdev>TrueBrain: i have setup a test VM for it already :)
16:56<TrueBrain>tdev: well, it will take a few days, maybe weeks, before I have anything solid
16:56<tdev>you will host on google code?
16:56<tdev>TrueBrain: no probblem
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16:56<TrueBrain>so if you would like to help, that is always welcome
16:56<TrueBrain>I first need to give the database model a good review .. it has its problems
16:57<tdev>yup, i think collaboration has the best effect :)
16:57<TrueBrain>OwenS: I first considered rewriting the memory I read with FFs or what ever
16:57<TrueBrain>but apps tend to read opcodes to see what is loaded where :(
16:59<OwenS>It's better than my "quick-n-easy" method... which involved transcoding the code slightly into a 16-bit segment and intercepting any INTs, segment loads, and such instructions
16:59<OwenS>Well, converting them to calls to emulator code during the transcode
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16:59<fonsinchen>grr. There is some hidden randomness in my linkgraph calculations and I'm too stupid to find it :(
16:59<TrueBrain>OwenS: I don't follow, sorry?
17:00<Nite_Owl>Hello andythenorth
17:00<andythenorth>nfo question: articulated road vehicle consist - change the sprites of lead vehicle depending on load state of trailing vehicles (loaded / unloaded)...possible?
17:01<andythenorth>^^ sorry if being dumb and missing obvious, I've looked for varaction 2 or callbacks in the docs. I fell on my head earlier today and am feeling a bit...slow
17:01<OwenS>TrueBrain: Read through the code, identifying instructions which do segment loads or call privileged instructions. They get replaced with calls to the emulator code. This code is placed in a 16-bit protected mode code segment. The other segment registers are also loaded with 16-bit PM segments, and the emulator adjusts them as needed
17:02<TrueBrain>OwenS: yeah, the problem is identifying that code ;)
17:02<OwenS>Very true!
17:02<TrueBrain>if I can identify it, I can do what you suggest, or something simular anyway
17:03<TrueBrain>(I btw capture ALL things, so no problem)
17:03<TrueBrain>just detecting it is tricky
17:03<TrueBrain>in this case I know INT 3F does the swapping
17:03<OwenS>JITing will probably be faster if you can, since 16-bit code runs slower
17:03<TrueBrain>but .. that is how borland does it :p Not a general statement
17:03<TrueBrain>all code is executed as 32bit :p
17:04<TrueBrain>and 64bit if TCC would fix their bugs :(
17:04<OwenS>I'd personally go LLVM for code gen :p
17:04<+glx>andythenorth: I think it's possible
17:04<OwenS>Mine was a "quick and dirty and moderately fast method" :p
17:04<TrueBrain>OwenS: I do codegen on the fly and compile it (JIT)
17:04<TrueBrain>LLVM would still require GCC or what ever :p
17:04<TrueBrain>TCC has a libtcc.a ;)
17:04<TrueBrain>perfect for the job :)
17:05<OwenS>Yes. And LLVM is both quite fast and beats GCC at generating code
17:05<OwenS>Well, I think :p
17:05<TrueBrain>yes, but LLVM doesn't make machine code
17:05<OwenS>It does
17:05<TrueBrain>it doesn't do the end-stage
17:05<TrueBrain>it makes intermediate code
17:05<TrueBrain>(hence the llvm-gcc project)
17:05<OwenS>LLVM-GCC uses GCC as a front end for C code to run in LLVM. LLVM has it's own codegen backends
17:05<TrueBrain>show me your source! :)
17:06<TrueBrain>last time I read it, LLVM doesn't generate arm, x86_64, ... code
17:06<OwenS>"A compiler infrastructure - LLVM is also a collection of source code that implements the language and compilation strategy. The primary components of the LLVM infrastructure are a GCC-based C & C++ front-end, a link-time optimization framework with a growing set of global and interprocedural analyses and transformations, static back-ends for the X86, X86-64, PowerPC 32/64, ARM, Thumb, IA-64, Alpha, SPARC, MIPS and CellSPU
17:06<OwenS>architectures, a back-end which emits portable C code, and a Just-In-Time compiler for X86, X86-64, PowerPC 32/64 processors, and an emitter for MSIL." front page
17:07<TrueBrain>(fuck, dune2 still doesn't show me anything graphical ... it hangs again on some infinite loop :S :( )
17:07<TrueBrain>OwenS: hmm ... interesting ...
17:07<TrueBrain>"LLVM is a low-level object code representation that uses simple RISC-like instructions" <- also
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17:08<OwenS>Yeah. LLVM is a virtual machine with JIT and AOT compilers
17:08<OwenS>Code generally goes GCC -> LLVM Bytecode -> LLVM AOT Compiler -> Optimized Output
17:08<Yexo>good night
17:08<TrueBrain>night Yexo
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17:08<TrueBrain>OwenS: owh ... they told me GCC was on the other end ;)
17:08<andythenorth>glx: yup, I *think* it should be possible. But I can't see an appropriate callback or varaction 2 :O
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17:09<OwenS>Apple use LLVM in their OpenGL stack. The JIT compiler either generates fast code to emulate features on cards which don't support them or discards said code on cards which do
17:09<TrueBrain>then it might be worth to replace libtcc with libllvm
17:10<TrueBrain>but either way, libtcc works fine in 32bit mode, so not that important
17:10<Liza>what are we talking about :X
17:12<Nite_Owl>conversation A: DOS coding (I Think) conversation B: NFO coding of articulated vehicles
17:12<TrueBrain>argh .. from one problem straight into the other problem ... this is getting on my nerves :(
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17:13<Chruker>Have there been any attempts at adding subways to OpenTTD?
17:14<TrueBrain>OwenS: anyway, tnx for the ideas :p If you have any more, they are welcome :) And if you are bored and want to program a full INT10 emulator, let me know :p (mwhahaha)
17:15<OwenS>TrueBrain: I don't think I'm masochistic enough to try :p
17:15<TrueBrain>I Thought that too when I started this project .. but slowly most DOS INTs are getting shape :p
17:15<TrueBrain>including MODE4 of INT10
17:15<TrueBrain>and now MODE13 .. if ever :p
17:17<andythenorth>hmm...vehicle offset 3C in the savegame internals: cargo load. I *should* be able to get at that with an 80+ varaction. I'll need to do it for the whole consist...figuring that out is probably going to hurt...
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17:22<TrueBrain>OwenS: now overthinking the whole situation .. I was wrong with one of my assumptions. If I would to keep a CRC of the function around, the static compiled version can give that to the JIT, and the JIT can still detect if a function changed on disk ...
17:22<TrueBrain>oeh, whole new ideas fly in my head .. ghehe :)
17:23<OwenS>TrueBrain: Sounds reasonable. I think it may be slightly faster to make the area read only first with mprotect, and use writes to it as a clue you need to check functions in it for changes
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17:23<TrueBrain>I need the JIT to split out small files when it finds a new function, including the bytecode it is built from :)
17:23<TrueBrain>OwenS: you are most likely right .. I will need to try that to see how many false positives it gives
17:24<TrueBrain>(as doing that bookkeeping is not an easy job)
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17:25<TrueBrain>basicly what the JIT has to do, is to tell per function where a jumps lead to. In case of a non-register/memory jump, this mostly is simple (same for retf and stuff, but not always). Reigster jumps it just needs to logs the places it has seen ..
17:25<TrueBrain>oeh, this is going to be pretty :)
17:28<TrueBrain>first a good night sleep :)
17:28<TrueBrain>OwenS: tnx again; if you are ever bored, I have other things that needs to be done on this project :p (MOUSE handling, KEYBOARD handling, .... :p)
17:28<TrueBrain>if you are ever interested ... ;)
17:28<TrueBrain>night all!
17:28<TrueBrain>sorry about the offtopic ;)
17:29<OwenS>TrueBrain: Maybe once some work is out of the way... maybe
17:29<Nite_Owl>later TrueBrain
17:29<TrueBrain>OwenS: for the general idea: this project converts 16bit DOS code to plain C, compilable by a modern compiler, unrelated to the 16bit DOS code
17:29<TrueBrain>where dune2 is my goal .. but not limited to :p
17:31<Nite_Owl>Chruker: a few minor attempts, none successful - many, many suggestions
17:31<tdev>TrueBrain: i can help you if you want-you have to say how
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17:50<planetmaker>hm... I have other code which I would like to see done that to, too, TrueBrain :-)
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18:27<Chruker>Does vehicle group_ids stay the same across savegames?
18:28<@SmatZ>it can change
18:28<@SmatZ>else network games would desync
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18:30<Chruker>it can change << can or cant?
18:32<Chruker>Basicly I'm wondering if I can safely use groups to map vehicles to routes in the data my AI stores.
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18:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say yes, but can't you use the group names instead?
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't understand this movie...
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>"THX 1138"... my brother gave it to me...
18:43<Chruker>group names... so simple, thank you :-)
18:43<Chruker>here I was starring myself blind on the ids
18:44<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Thats normal for George Lucas films I think =P
18:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16921 /trunk/src/ (65 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: make it more clear what strings are related to road vehicles; only ROAD isn't always enough. Also unify the way of writing it.
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>major challenge for WT3? :p
18:46<Nite_Owl>That movie was Lucas' graduate thesis
18:47<@SmatZ>[00:28:11] <SmatZ> it can change
18:47<@SmatZ>[00:30:07] <Chruker> it can change << can or cant?
18:47<@SmatZ>oh sorry
18:47<@SmatZ>of course it CAN'T
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18:48<Nite_Owl>post apocalyptic underground world where people are controlled by drugs and once man's attempt to break free from that world
18:49<Nite_Owl>*one man's
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>that much i got, but there are some serious plot jumps in there
18:51<Nite_Owl>it was made on a very limited budget
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18:53<Nite_Owl>it does tend to seem to jump around a bit until you watch it a few times and understand what each part of the main character's journey represents
18:53<Yrol>its alive! °giggles°
18:54<Yrol>hello everys body and mind
18:54<Nite_Owl>Hello Yrol
18:54<Yrol>(Nite_Owl) your topic, if i might ask?
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18:55<Nite_Owl>just general blathering about the movie THX 1138
18:55<Yrol>ah... never seen
18:56<Nite_Owl>which Eddi is watching for the first time
18:56<Nite_Owl>I need to feed - later all
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18:57<Yrol>uuh the early robert duvall...nicer
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19:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16922 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: unduplicate some vehicle CMD_*s and move the setting of the error message to a single place
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20:02<AdditionalData>Hi there
20:02<Yrol>hello AdditionalData
20:02<AdditionalData>Everyone okay?
20:03<AdditionalData>I will take that as "We've all been shot"
20:04<Yrol>i take that as you being impatient :o)
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20:09<AdditionalData>haha :D
20:09<AdditionalData>Any developers here?
20:09<Yrol>you mean.. alive ones?
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20:10<Yrol>just ask your question :o)
20:12<AdditionalData>yes, alive developers?
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20:12<AdditionalData>Hello Rubidium
20:13<AdditionalData>What features are you interested in implementing in OpenTTD?
20:13<AdditionalData>(I sound like a reporter)
20:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16923 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp waypoint_cmd.cpp waypoint_func.h): -Codechange: move Cmd*Buoy* to waypoint_cmd.cpp and make them behave more like waypoints, e.g. reuse station signs of recently deleted buoys
20:14<Yrol>(AdditionalData) being able to resize and move every window by default.
20:15<@Rubidium>whatever I'm in the mood for
20:15<@Rubidium>or something that kills mosquitos by thought, but that's not really 'in OpenTTD'
20:20<AdditionalData>Ah, lol, thanks
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>you need more than a level two telepath to influence lesser creatures
20:21<Yrol>oh... a thing that annoys me quite some... why is it so, that we cant use edgescrolling, if there is a thing above the acutal landscape? with edgescrolling on, you only can scroll to the left and right, if you have no windows open, as the top and bottom GUI blocks scrolling.
20:22<Yrol>( and every window that touches the border does that too actually )
20:23<AdditionalData>maybe it's so you dont accidentally scroll when clicking a button next to the edge of the screen?
20:26<Yrol>(AdditionalData) hm, that sounds logical. however... if you are used to edgescrolling-games, or use edgescrolling, you basically are aware about that and move the mouse anyways more careful i woujld guess.
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20:35<AdditionalData>(Yrol) Yes, but bear in mind that some people may be running a high resolution on a small screen (such as a laptop) which can make the buttons very small.
20:35<AdditionalData>and if only 2/3 of the button is useful before the screen starts scrolling, that's frustrating
20:38<Aali>on the other hand, edge-scrolling is useless if it only works in some directions
20:38<Aali>I think that would be a lot more frustrating actually
20:38<Aali>I never use it though
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20:45<Yrol>(AdditionalData) not everyone has a 50' LCD...... it would be quite wrong to steer the development of a game in a way that only rich people can "use" it :o) its a small matter though, really. im not interested in breaking off a war about it.
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20:52<AdditionalData>It might be best to have your idea as a switch in the game settings
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20:52<AdditionalData>"Do not allow window objects to affect scrolling" or something like that
20:52<Yrol>(AdditionalData) of course. i would do it onyl that way, so every user has a choice.
20:53<AdditionalData>Are you a developer Yrol? I'm not really sure.
20:53<Yrol>but, if i could make it, i would change something else about openttd.
20:54<Yrol>(AdditionalData) i only have ideas. sadly, not the means to make them come true. so, you could say im a developer without tools.
21:05<AdditionalData>i guess it's something you've got to wrok at before you can participate in development
21:06<AdditionalData>like walking before you can run
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 23 00:00:47 2009