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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-08-09

---Logopened Sun Aug 09 00:00:13 2009
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06:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17129 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Codechange: also let strgen warn if the translation uses STRINGn or RAW_STRING instead of STRING.
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06:34<TrueBrain>"In order to prevent even the appearance of impropriety, my companies policy is that software engineers are to avoid inspecting (so using binaries is OK) open source code that has any kind of viral license. Therefore any open source code I myself author must have a BSD type license."
06:34<TrueBrain>so to come back what I said yesterday: a company cannot force your license which you use in your own time
06:35<@Rubidium>it's not the company that actually enforces that his code can't be GPL
06:35<Alberth>hmm, so I look at GPL code, use that knowledge in closed source code, and now I must publish the closed source? weird
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06:37<TrueBrain>I think it is a weird story he is giving us ..
06:37<Alberth>lawyers are weird people :p
06:37<Alberth>now who said that FUD doesn't work? :p
06:37<TrueBrain>just the idea that a company could control my personal time .. brr ...
06:38<@Rubidium>and the big problem with lawyers...
06:38<TrueBrain>which leads me to the next question: what to eat ...
06:38<Alberth>actually in Holland, everything you make is owned by your boss, ie you cannot do a great invention just outside the boss' time.
06:38<@Rubidium>... they aren't sure either what would happen in court
06:39<TrueBrain>Alberth: things you do when you are on the clock, yes
06:39<TrueBrain>but when I get home, get comphy, it really is all mine :p
06:39<@Rubidium>Alberth: good reason to start your own company and sell your time to other companies
06:39<TrueBrain>what I do now ... not always the best :p
06:39<TrueBrain>you can have a week with absolutely no work :)
06:39<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: quiche?
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06:40<TrueBrain>k, starting my compiles again, which yesterday gave 3 system freezes ... it consumes so much IO, the rest of the applications came to a halt
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06:42<Akoz>sounds like something made from me.. :o
06:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17130 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3099]: Last line of output in the AI debug window did not fit entirely.
06:42<Xaroth>Alberth: Only if you spent time at work to invent it.
06:43<Xaroth>if you did it in your personal time, using personal resources and not using any work-bound knowledge, it's all yours.
06:43<Yexo>Xaroth: if it's only slightl related to your work, you'll have a hard time proving you didn't spend work time on it
06:43<Xaroth>Yexo: yep
06:43<Yexo>exactly, "not using any work-bound knowledge", that's the key point
06:44<TrueBrain>Yexo: for that we have VCSes :)
06:44<Yexo>TrueBrain: those don't prove anything about "not using any work-bound knowledge"
06:46<TrueBrain>no, but they do about the part: "spend work time on it"
06:52<SmatZ>that's not really surprising
06:52<TrueBrain>I hate C++ .. cc1plus tends to consumes 200+ MB of memory :(
06:52<SmatZ>you are paid for work, not for your personal activities ;)
06:56*Rubidium wonders what the boss would think if I weren't to use any information/ideas I gathered outside of working hours
06:57<SmatZ>why do they request "good C++ programming skills" when you apply for the job :-)
06:57*Rubidium also wonders why smoking people get paid while smoking, especially in countries where it isn't allowed to smoke at the place you work
06:58<SmatZ>when you wouldn't be supposed to use skills gained outside the job ;)
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07:43<Akoz>is there a mode to log all debug messages to file?
07:44<TrueBrain>-d9 > log.file
07:45<Akoz>is it possible to toggle at runtime?
07:45<TrueBrain>pipes? Never
07:45<TrueBrain>I once did program a small thingy that sends all debug stuff over a network
07:45<TrueBrain>is somewhere in the code I believe, commented out
07:46<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I don't think it's commmented out
07:46<TrueBrain>oh :) Then I wouldn't know how to activate it :p
07:46<TrueBrain>I just know I wrote it for WinCE debugging :p
07:46<Ammler>Akoz: we use tee, so we have both
07:47<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: openttd -l ip:port
07:47<TrueBrain>Rubidium: ah :)
07:47<@Rubidium>see man openttd ;)
07:49<TrueBrain>SmatZ: not BOOST, but OpenOffice takes very long for python update :p
07:49<Ammler>Akoz: a tool to keep stdout but also have it piped to a file
07:51<Ammler>(./autopilot.tcl | tee -a log)
07:51<Akoz>cool. ty
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08:06<Eddi|zuHause>grr... how do i set antialiasing for fonts in kde4?
08:06<OwenS>Under the System Settings tool :p
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but where there?
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>searching for it doesn't work...
08:07<OwenS>Appearence -> Fonts I think
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08:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it's weird... it is active, but it doesn't get used everywhere
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08:16<DJNekkid>the grfspec wiki is down ... but what were the diesel running cost base again?
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08:19<DJNekkid>very ... very ... very slow, but it works ... very slow :)
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08:24<OwenS>LLVM is entirely static libraries
08:24<OwenS>TrueBrain: How big is too big for a dependency? :p
08:25<TrueBrain>(I wonder what he really wanted to ask :p)
08:25<OwenS>I suppose I should say: Is 7.3MB too big for the AI scripting language? :P
08:25<TrueBrain>LLVM is too big for AI scripting language
08:25<TrueBrain>no questions asked
08:26<OwenS>Shame. Because it could be made hellishly fast.
08:26<TrueBrain>yeah, at what cost :)
08:26<OwenS>Startup time (compilation) and binary size :p
08:26<TrueBrain>not to talk about cross-platform issues
08:27<OwenS>LLVM JIT works on Win32, OS X and Linux for ARM, x86, x86_64; the interpreter runs everywhere
08:27<OwenS>(Well, almost everywhere)
08:27<TrueBrain>also on DS?
08:27<OwenS>OK true :p
08:28<TrueBrain>(do you want me to go on, or?)
08:28<OwenS>[Does anyone actually use the DOS port? O_o]
08:28<TrueBrain>does it matter? :)
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08:31<OwenS>Theres the much more lightweight libJIT
08:31<OwenS>Again probably with platform issues...
08:31<TrueBrain>any and all JITs will have platform issues
08:31<TrueBrain>not a real issue perse, if you allow the JIT to work on some platforms, and not on others
08:32<TrueBrain>but then you need to consider the risks of having a JIT
08:32<TrueBrain>now it will be almost impossible to do anything nasty with an AI
08:32<TrueBrain>you can't access, for example, any disk
08:32<TrueBrain>simply because WE are in command
08:33<TrueBrain>but when youuse a JIT .. the CPU is in command .. can you still guarantee that your disk won't be wiped?
08:33<OwenS>I'd say the codegenerator is in command
08:33<TrueBrain>or what happens when you do 1/0?
08:34<TrueBrain>in other words: the complexity increases dramaticly
08:34<OwenS>Div by zero: Signal handler catches it
08:34<TrueBrain>and the handler needs to know where to resume the real game, while dropping the AI ..
08:34<TrueBrain>I don't even want to go there :p
08:34<TrueBrain>now it is simple, the VM creates an error, and it just follow the chain, which aborts the AI
08:35<TrueBrain>in a VM we are in control. In a JIT we are not.
08:35<OwenS>In my case I'm going to throw a C++ exception, which will cause the code to unwind itself =)
08:39<OwenS>So, in other words, my exception handling system is built right on top of C++'s
08:40<TrueBrain>stupid OpenOffice compile
08:40<TrueBrain>consumes too much of everything
08:41<OwenS>Why is it that two of the biggest open source app projects (Mozilla, OpenOffice) invented their own clone of COM (XPCOM, UNO)? =/
08:41<TrueBrain>why are they both impossible to compile?
08:41<OwenS>Perhaps it's related? :P
08:43<@Rubidium>OwenS: because othe COMs aren't portable enough?
08:44<OwenS>What do they need them for however?
08:46<@Rubidium>don't ask us :)
08:46<OwenS>I suppose OpenOffice has the excuse of embedding the applications inside each other.. but Mozilla?
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09:20<Akoz>is there a simple way to fetch a station by station id?
09:21<frosch123>Station::Get ?
09:21<frosch123>or are you talking about noai? :)
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09:22<Akoz>no no.. was talking about that one :)
09:22<frosch123>then mind the differente between BaseStation, Station and Waypoint :)
09:24<Akoz>thank you :)
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10:36<OwenS>Hmm... For methods, do I go with a JavaScript style implicit "this" or Python style explicit "this"...
10:36<TrueBrain>Python uses 'self' :p
10:37<welterde>and it seems like threads are disabled in noai :/
10:38<OwenS>I think I'm gonna go JavaScript style, i.e, all function calls recieve an implcit this parameter
10:39<TrueBrain>pff .. 3 cc1plus processes using a woppie 1.5 GB total
10:40<welterde>any chance of getting coroutines enabled in noai? or do i have to use generators in some way instead?
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10:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r17131 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: apply coding style to some switch statements
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11:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r17132 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix: comments in company_cmd.cpp
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12:10*TrueBrain hugs SmatZ!!!!!!!!!111111111111
12:10<TrueBrain>its UNBELIEVABLE! :)
12:10<TrueBrain>my vehicles move!!! :)
12:11<TrueBrain>one stupid fucking retarded fuctions :)
12:11<z-MaTRiX>"About to copy 9223 PBytes from /dev/urandom to /dev/hda"
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12:18<TrueBrain>Xaroth: NOW maybe, there is a chance OpenDune will come to live :)
12:18<TrueBrain>and that all tnx to SmatZ' test application :) :) :) :)
12:19<DJNekkid>am i doeing something completely wrong here, or isnt this possible?
12:20<DJNekkid>or do i need to, as i've done before, have the var2 variation B4 at the end of the chain?
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12:22<welterde>TrueBrain: is there a list what API-methods are DoCommands? (in noai)
12:22<frosch123>DJNekkid: what does not work?
12:22<TrueBrain>welterde: wrong person to ask
12:23<frosch123>welterde: everything that affects other clients
12:23<frosch123>though I don't know about TestMode
12:23<DJNekkid>frosch123: the runningcost on wagon dont change on different speeds
12:24<frosch123>wagons do not have running costs
12:24<frosch123>only engines have
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12:24<welterde>frosch123: ok.. thanks :)
12:24<DJNekkid>frosch123: is wagon running cost removed again?
12:25<SmatZ>it seems it works for wagons
12:25<SmatZ>looking at Train::GetRunningCost()
12:25<frosch123>hmm, yes, indeed
12:26<SmatZ>only artic parts are skipped
12:26<DJNekkid>it do work in the 2cc set, but there i did it in a more ... crappy way
12:26<DJNekkid>or atleast, imho, ugly code :)
12:26<DJNekkid>with lots of repitition...
12:27<DJNekkid>but there is the B4 variation at the end, and not in the general callback itself
12:28<frosch123>variable B4 is only valid for the front vehicle, but it does not matter where you query it inside the chain
12:28<frosch123>btw. speed is a word
12:28<frosch123>but maybe your vehicles are not that fast :)
12:29<DJNekkid>but would that matter, as the range is at 0kpm
12:29<DJNekkid>kph even
12:29<DJNekkid>as "everything else" is not 0 ?
12:29<frosch123>256 would also be 0
12:30<frosch123>don't ask me about the unit :)
12:30<DJNekkid>it actually would, but still ...
12:31<DJNekkid>if i used -1 * 0 02 00 B6 82 B4 00 FF 01 B8 00 00 00 B6 00
12:31<frosch123>anyway, I don't think the problem is inside the code you posted :)
12:31<welterde>TrueBrain: regarding coroutines too? (-:
12:31<DJNekkid>at the END of the chain, where B8 and B6 are two different CB36 chains
12:31<TrueBrain>welterde: anything OpenTTD (the game) related
12:32<frosch123>welterde: you have to find a question about the webpage :)
12:32<welterde>ah :D
12:32<DJNekkid>where one of the chains had the running cost for beeing in motion, where the other one dont...
12:32<welterde>TrueBrain: who to ask about that then? ;)
12:33<frosch123>Yexo, but as he is not here, the forums :)
12:33<DJNekkid>but i think i can see a workaround now anyway, as my capacaties are stated elsewhere...
12:33<DJNekkid>but it still require some duplicated code... :(
12:34<frosch123>DJNekkid: as I said, the order of checking variables makes no difference
12:34<DJNekkid>thats what i thought as well, but apparently it do :)
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12:34<frosch123>no, it doesn't :)
12:35<welterde>frosch123: i'll just wait.. now that a small grep told me he is just now not here ;)
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12:37*Alberth buys TrueBrain a bottle of champagne
12:37<TrueBrain>welterde: we do have this lovely forum
12:37<TrueBrain>very useful
12:37<TrueBrain>many people there
12:37<TrueBrain>Alberth: tnx! :) I AM SO HAPPY! :)
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12:38<welterde>TrueBrain: but i would have to register on it first probably(unless i forgot that i already did that, in which case i have just to remember the password/mail)
12:39<DJNekkid>is it possible to make a "storage" var2?
12:39<DJNekkid>like ... a constant
12:40<DJNekkid>and i can insert this into several places?
12:40<frosch123>depends when you want to assign it, read it and write it :)
12:40<DJNekkid>when i think about it it can be made quite easily...
12:41<DJNekkid>useing some dummy stuff that never go out of range...
12:41<DJNekkid>current year, long format for example
12:42<frosch123>anyway, there are grf paramters, temporary storage registers, varaction2 function calls and that weird user_bitmask callback
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12:42<frosch123>[18:43] <DJNekkid> current year, long format for example <- what?
12:43<frosch123>do you mean var 1a?
12:43<Xaroth>-18:18:44- [TrueBrain]: Xaroth: NOW maybe, there is a chance OpenDune will come to live :) <<<< may I be the first to say
12:43<frosch123>well, but do you know 1a?
12:43<DJNekkid>no i dont...
12:44<frosch123>maybe you mean that one :)
12:45<DJNekkid>so i can use ... -1 * 0 02 00 81 1A 00 FF 01 \b<value> 80 00 00 <whatever> 00 ?
12:46<frosch123>i still do not know what you are trying to archieve, but usually it is 1A 00 \b<value> ...
12:46<DJNekkid>or even 12...
12:46<DJNekkid>i mean, it is ALWAYS in game mode, or editor :)
12:46<DJNekkid>*run and test*
12:46*frosch123 yawns
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12:50<DJNekkid>now that gave a wierd result...
12:51<DJNekkid>no it didnt
12:51<DJNekkid>it gave the exact result!
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17133 /trunk/ (13 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: generalise the code that searches for base graphics
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13:07<TrueBrain>Xaroth: yes you may
13:09<Xaroth>so, you got your decompiler thingie working then?
13:09<TrueBrain>because of a stupid typo mov signextend was not sign extending
13:09<TrueBrain>giving all the troubles :p
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13:10<TrueBrain>now I am not 100% done yet, I have some hash conflicts I need to resolve
13:10<Xaroth>(I have no clue but i do know the whole 1-typo-fucks-up-everything thing :P )
13:11<TrueBrain>well, movws ax, al with al of 0xFF should give a ax of 0xFFFF .. instead if became 0x00FF :p
13:11<Xaroth>er, I can see the issue there :P
13:11<TrueBrain>the true issue comes when you do as next command: add bx, ax
13:11<TrueBrain>now instead of doing -1, you do +255
13:11<Xaroth>which is not really what you want :P
13:12<TrueBrain>well, if it is not intended, rarely :)
13:12<TrueBrain>a stupid typo, hidden in my way of structuring files .. :)
13:13<TrueBrain>but never again, as it is now part of the regression :p
13:13<Xaroth>it's always the typos that cause the most crap :P
13:14<TrueBrain>and if it wasn't for the test app SmatZ gave me, where it showed up as the 150,000 CPU instruction after start, I would never have found it :)
13:14<TrueBrain>just to highlight the things you need to go through to find it :p
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13:16<Xaroth>btw, did the original dune 2 use some kind of gfx lib or did they proper oldskool
13:16<TrueBrain>don't know yet
13:16<TrueBrain>I only know it is compiled with Borland C
13:16<Alberth>(07:12:13 PM) TrueBrain: now instead of doing -1, you do +255 <--- I once used a C compiler that translated x-- like that.
13:16<TrueBrain>Alberth: not really useful :)
13:16<TrueBrain>Xaroth: but by the looks, they all did it themselves
13:17<TrueBrain>the movies are done in a really clever way
13:17<Alberth>Not really, further in the project, the standard approach was first to check compiler output rather than bug searching in our program
13:17<Xaroth>TrueBrain: their lip synch thing was a wow factor for the game back in the day
13:17<TrueBrain>Alberth: why not use another compiler?
13:17<Xaroth>heck, most games now don't even have pure lip sync :P
13:18<Alberth>we found more compiler problems than bugs in our program :p
13:18<Alberth>It was a 6809 compiler for a school project
13:18<TrueBrain>bad school project, I say :p
13:18<TrueBrain>Xaroth: hehe, nowedays we have movies :p
13:18<OwenS>Hmm... For my language, do I go for sealed classes (I.E. convert them to C structures) which are faster, or unsealed classes, which are basically hashtables? :P
13:19<TrueBrain>the questions you have to ask yourself .. they keep on growing :)
13:19<OwenS>Hmm... perhaps I could do a hybrid aproach? =)
13:19<Alberth>implement both, let the user decide :p
13:20<OwenS>If you specify it with "var" in the class definition, it goes in the struct, else you'll pay for it with the hashtable :p
13:20<DJNekkid>yey frosch123... now it works as it should... it, apparently, were something with the action0 of the particular engine
13:20<DJNekkid>or rather, wagon
13:21<frosch123>fine :)
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13:30<DJNekkid>wanna download the ugliest grf ever? but it's functions are quite nice tho :)
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r17134 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 2 changes by Gavin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: galician - 2 changes by Condex
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 22 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: urdu - 1 changes by yasirniazkhan
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14:04<TrueBrain>WHOHO! I finished the first dune2 mission!! :)
14:04<frosch123>the tutorial? build a barack?
14:04<TrueBrain>no, harvest 1000 credits
14:05-!-Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
14:05<TrueBrain>[EMU] [ INT33:07 ] Not Yet Implemented <- darn, it is always something :p
14:05<z-MaTRiX>it was long time ago
14:05<z-MaTRiX>i hate maxunits ;<
14:06<z-MaTRiX>in dune2 and total annihilation too
14:06<frosch123>hmm, int33... is that the mouse?
14:06<TrueBrain>yup :)
14:06<TrueBrain>in this case set hor min/max
14:06<OwenS>Aah, Total Annihilation rocks
14:07<z-MaTRiX>made an annihilator group for fun :)
14:08<OwenS>I enjoyed shelling people with intimidators ^^
14:09<OwenS>I just marked myself away manually Konversation. Honor it -.-
14:14<Ammler>TrueBrain: still does show yesterday nightly?
14:14<TrueBrain>Ammler: might have to do, I don't know, that todays nightly is not there yet?
14:14<TrueBrain>just a hunch .. idea ... feeling .. not sure :p
14:14<Ammler>will that written when compile is done?
14:15<TrueBrain>sometimes, I really wonder about the intelligence of a question
14:15<Ammler>a bit too late ;-)
14:15<TrueBrain>Ammler: is updated when the binaries are available (at all the mirrors)
14:16<TrueBrain>as it has been for almost a year :)
14:16<TrueBrain>that is what finger represents: the latest available binaries
14:16<Ammler>hmm, I thought it does also update, if compile failed.
14:17<TrueBrain>finger, as it should, represents the actual latest available binaries
14:17<TrueBrain>but then again, the compile never failed
14:17<TrueBrain>(as failure would mean that even the source packages were not created)
14:17<Ammler>it did once this year and finger updated
14:17<Ammler>once I know of.
14:17<TrueBrain>the CF hasn't failed since 2005
14:18<TrueBrain>March 2005 .. a good month :)
14:18<Ammler>it is around 2-3 months ago, at least windows bins weren't available.
14:18<TrueBrain>LOL! Yes, that means that CF failed, that the windows binaries failed
14:18<TrueBrain>the whole world dies when that happens
14:19<Ammler>yes, it does, the world is MS
14:19<TrueBrain>my mistake, really, you are absolutely right
14:19<TrueBrain>CF fails when it fails to produce windows binaries
14:19<Ammler>thanks :-P
14:19<TrueBrain>[20:15] <TrueBrain> sometimes, I really wonder about the intelligence of a question <- it is not only the questions I now worry about :)
14:20<TrueBrain>Ammler: the CF couldn't care less if one target fails. If multiple fail, it starts to worry .. but that never happened :)
14:20<@Rubidium>has the compile farm generated binaries, yes? Then the compile farm didn't fail and updating finger is fine
14:20<TrueBrain>Rubidium: strictly seen he even considered the log of a failure enough to publish itself :p
14:21<TrueBrain>(or is it a she?)
14:21<@Rubidium>she (:babe)
14:21<TrueBrain>fair enough :)
14:21<TrueBrain>still a nice inside joke :)
14:21<Ammler>is there a table like you had on the old CF?
14:22<Ammler>where you see in one shot which os succeeded
14:22<frosch123>yes, #openttd.notice
14:25<Alberth>(08:05:21 PM) TrueBrain: no, harvest 1000 credits <-- \o/ \o/ \o/
14:26<frosch123>since when do nl use am/pm?
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14:29<Alberth>Since I could not find a trivial way to set that differently
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14:33<TrueBrain>who knows how a video mode 0x0D screen has to be read? :)
14:33<Tefad>read or written?
14:33<TrueBrain>it is written for me
14:33<TrueBrain>I assumed it was equal to a 0x12 .. I was wrong :p
14:33<frosch123>why mode is that?
14:33<Tefad>oh, you're doing wonky crap with dune still?
14:33<TrueBrain>320x200x16 (EGA,VGA)
14:34<TrueBrain>(x16 as in: 16 colours, not 16bpp :p)
14:34<frosch123>does it work the same as 640x350x16 ?
14:34<frosch123>oh right, 640x350x4 :)
14:36<frosch123>well, you set in some register which bits you want to read/write
14:37<SmatZ>TrueBrain: reading by nibbles doesn't work?
14:37<TrueBrain>lol :) frosch123: the video screen is written at 0xa0000 .. I ened to read it to represent to my SDL screen :p
14:37<TrueBrain>it seems to be 2 paged memory
14:38<SmatZ>or is it that interleaved XMODE?
14:38<frosch123>well, 640x350x4 is basically monochrome, with 8 pixels per byte.
14:38<OwenS>It's not one of those funky modes where every other row is on a different page is it?
14:38<frosch123>additionally you have some register where you can mask the 'planes' you want to write
14:39<OwenS>I know you could do some crazy optimizations with the VGA state machine
14:42<frosch123>port 3C4, 3CE, 3CF, 3C5 seem to be the important ones
14:42<TrueBrain>frosch123: again, I am trying to read from memory :)
14:42<TrueBrain>not to use hardware to access data :p
14:42<TrueBrain>(as I am the hardware :p)
14:42<SmatZ>TrueBrain: what exactly is your problem? wrong palette, or wrong order of pixels, interleaved data... ?
14:42<frosch123>yes, and you have to switch memory bases on those registers
14:43<TrueBrain>SmatZ: data is cropped on the first 50 lines or so
14:43<frosch123>but it is not like a page switch, but you can also access multiple pages at the same time, and write the same stuff into them
14:44<frosch123>okay, I will look into a book :)
14:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17135 /trunk/src/base_media_base.h: -Fix (r17133): some (older) GCCs failed to compile
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14:45<frosch123>hmm, I cannot locate the book :(
14:46<@Rubidium>try sudo updatedb ;)
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14:49<frosch123>worked :)
14:50<TrueBrain>okay, now I have 2x the screen, left and right
14:50<TrueBrain>getting there :p
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14:53<PeterT>can someone please take a look at my problem:
14:55<OwenS>TrueBrain: #0 0x00007f0ee8347289 in ?? () The real trouble with JITed code: debugging
14:55<TrueBrain>feed the symbols to gdb, and you will be fine
14:56<OwenS>What symbols?
14:56<TrueBrain>of your JIT :)
14:56<OwenS>It doesn't generate any!
14:56<TrueBrain>make it generate :p
14:56<OwenS>And even if it did, GDB wouldn't know how to find them
14:56<TrueBrain>there are ways to do that
14:56<TrueBrain>on runtime
14:56<TrueBrain>after all, dl does it :)
14:57<OwenS>It doesn't register them with the dynamic linker :p
14:57<OwenS>My backtrace looks like
14:57<OwenS>#0 0x00007f48eec75289 in ?? ()
14:57<TrueBrain>I am looking at such backtraces all day
14:57<TrueBrain>so don't tell me about it :)
14:57<Tefad>mmm stack corruption
14:58<OwenS>I guess your familiar with (gdb) disassemble 0x7f48eec75010 0x7f48eec75010+552 also then :P
14:58<TrueBrain>even more as my input is almost assembly :p
14:58<Aali>oh you spoiled kids
14:59<Aali>come back when you have random corruption in your page tables :)
14:59<OwenS>Aali: Done that :P
14:59<Aali>that's real fun to debug
14:59<TrueBrain>bah ... I sometimes hate what I am doing :p
14:59<Aali>you don't even know what memory you're looking at
14:59<OwenS>0x00007f48eec75289: callq *(%rsi,%riz,1) <-- How did I know that would be the line the faults happening on?
14:59<frosch123>TrueBrain: the ram is accessed as uint1 ram[plane][row][column], so 4 pages of 16kb
15:00<TrueBrain>frosch123: I just found yes .. tnx :) This mode will be the most impossible one ....
15:00<frosch123>but the planes share the same memory addresses (from CPU pov) :)
15:01<OwenS>Judging by the structure of the code it's happening in... attempt to cast before a binary operator
15:02<OwenS>Hmm... I'm gonna learn how one allocates strings in LLVM and generate some checkpoints :p
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15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r17136 /trunk/ (bin/data/orig_win.obg docs/obg_format.txt): -Fix: Some typos in .obg stuff.
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15:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17137 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix (r17129): strgen complained a lot about english.txt compiled with MSVC.
15:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17138 /trunk/src/ (saveload/waypoint_sl.cpp settings_gui.cpp): -Fix: some MSVC 64 bits compiler warnings
15:07<TrueBrain>frosch123: you are absolutely right :)
15:09<Xaroth>TrueBrain: Hot Shots on telly
15:09<TrueBrain>Xaroth: oeh!!
15:09<Xaroth>thought so :)
15:09<TrueBrain>I only wonder ... 320x200 is just 1F40 bytes ... why do they use planes?
15:09*frosch123 assumes tb means the stuff from The Hardware Book, printed in 1992, which even specfies the pin layouts of the chips
15:09<TrueBrain>Xaroth: what station?
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15:10<Xaroth>commercial break now tho
15:10<TrueBrain>frosch123: I wish I had such books .. as this annoys the hell out of me
15:10<TrueBrain>I am flying blind, guessing around
15:10<TrueBrain>doing with the small information I can find
15:10<frosch123>TrueBrain: because 640x350 / 8 is about 64 kB
15:11<frosch123>hmm, no :p
15:11<TrueBrain>other modes .. that can be a good enoguh reason
15:11<TrueBrain>@calc 640 * 350 / 4
15:11<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 56000
15:11<TrueBrain>almost :p
15:11<TrueBrain>@calc 640 * 400 / 4
15:11<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 64000
15:11<frosch123>but it is 8 pixels per byte
15:11<frosch123>so only the half
15:11<TrueBrain>hmm .. true
15:12<TrueBrain>so it only needs 32k
15:12<@petern>oh, no
15:12<@petern>it's 'paged' or whatever they called it
15:12<TrueBrain>but okay ... I need to figure out a clever way to emulate this :)
15:12<@petern>640 * 350 @ 16 colours, is 112KB
15:13*petern goes back to sleep
15:13<frosch123>TrueBrain: there are also video pages !
15:13<frosch123>that results in 64kB
15:17<TrueBrain>I give up on this video mode .. impossible shit :p
15:19<frosch123>make it monochrome and pick one of the 4 planes :p
15:19<TrueBrain>I just did :p
15:19<TrueBrain>but .. it doesn't animate
15:19<TrueBrain>and I don't know why :(
15:20<frosch123>maybe it read back the data to decide for the next?
15:20<frosch123>or is it palette animation?
15:20<TrueBrain>I don't read palette changes ..
15:20<@petern>mmm, ega palette
15:20<TrueBrain>and I don't read any waiting on anything ..
15:21<frosch123>16 out of 64 colours :p
15:22<Alberth>double buffering?
15:22<@petern>frosch123, that's the one :D
15:23<TrueBrain>1 3C4 followed by 4 3C5
15:23<TrueBrain>must be important :p
15:23<frosch123>btw. did anyone here ever saw a real cga? and did it really had that weird colours?
15:25<TrueBrain>"Wendy I can fly!"
15:25<frosch123>that stores 4 in register 1
15:25<DJNekkid>wow, the new opengfx signals are rather nice!
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15:31<OwenS>OK... why can't I call the function "as_checkpoint(i8*)" with a [2 x i8]*?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>i only remember when my father ran sokoban on a colour monitor for the first time, and went like "urgs... it's pink!"
15:32<TrueBrain>the 4 colours on a CGA ...
15:32<Tefad>most horrible ever
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>but that was way before i knew what CGA and VGA is
15:32<TrueBrain>better than green and black :s
15:33<frosch123>yeah, you can somehow pick different itensities, but it stays black, cyan, magenta and white
15:33<Tefad>wasn't there a second mode that did green and orange
15:33<OwenS>Wasn't there a yellow in there which the monitors converted to brown?
15:33<TrueBrain>there are 2 palettes you could select
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>afair CGA had 4 modes
15:34<TrueBrain>both could go in high and low intensity
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>each with 4 out of 16 colours
15:34<Tefad> long live CGA?
15:35<+glx>I liked cpc 6128 mode 0 :)
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>the first computer i can actually remember already had VGA
15:37<frosch123>hmm, seems like you can choose green/red/yellow, cyan/magenta/white or cyan/red/white. together with a fourth arbitrary choosable
15:38<frosch123>typically balck
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>and we played civ all day long...
15:38<SmatZ>quite soon after I started playing civ I found a way how to edit savegames
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>and sim city
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>and monkey island
15:39<SmatZ>so it spoiled it for me quite a bit
15:39<+glx>at least VGA was standard
15:39*SmatZ never played monkey island
15:39<SmatZ>we had VGA computer home since 1991...
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>it was totally awesome...
15:39<frosch123>haha, simcity with FUNDS and earthquake after doing it too often :p
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>we played the "sword fights" pver amd pver agaom :)
15:40<OwenS>Every 5th time :p
15:40<OwenS>FUND gave you a $10,000 30% interest per week loan in SimCity 2000
15:40<TrueBrain>haha :) For those who can't read that: over and over again
15:40<SmatZ>I played Stunts a lot
15:40<+glx>thx TrueBrain
15:40<SmatZ>ah, thanks TrueBrain :)
15:40<+glx>my brain failed to decipher it
15:40<frosch123>yeah, stunts!
15:41<OwenS>Aww crud
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>offset keyboard :p
15:41<OwenS>The crash is on the first call to f
15:41<+glx>stunts was fun
15:41<frosch123>filling the whole map and driving for 20 minutes :o
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>just move all right hand characters one to the side :p
15:41<SmatZ>I planned to once code game like stunts, but better
15:41<frosch123>and then too fast in the last corner and hit the finish :s
15:41<SmatZ>mmm OpenStunts
15:41<+glx>I still have it on a disk
15:42<OwenS> %result = call %"struct.AlterScript::Variant" (i32, ...)* %3(i32 2, i64 1, i64 3) ; <%"struct.AlterScript::Variant"> [#uses=1] AAH!
15:42<TrueBrain>SmatZ: there is a very simular project
15:42<OwenS>I'm not implicit casting function call args to variants
15:42*frosch123 never replaced disks, so has a working installation in dosbox
15:42<SmatZ>TrueBrain: yeah, I got it installed, but it's far from being playable... ultimatestunts
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>stunts was that car racing game where you could build your own route?
15:43<OwenS>It works when you obey your calling convention! :P
15:43<frosch123>and where the f1 car was the only one, which was fast enough to successfully jump after one piece of road
15:44<+glx>ML was very slow :)
15:44<TrueBrain>SmatZ: well, if you implement EXEC in my emu, it should work :)
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>where you could cheat by just going around the fomosh line and the penalty was way less than the time it took to actually complete the round?
15:45<SmatZ>TrueBrain: isn't exec simply doing what you do with the original image?
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15:45<TrueBrain>SmatZ: in theory, yes, but there are a few thingies ...
15:45<OwenS>SmatZ: But both have to be in memory concurrently
15:45<TrueBrain>SmatZ: and I never found the guts to implement it ;)
15:46<OwenS>(Well, I'm assuming EXEC is more like Win32 CreateProcess than Unix exec(2))
15:46<TrueBrain>both not really related to DOS EXEC
15:47<OwenS>More like however :p
15:47<OwenS>As in, DOS Exec doesn't replace the existing process image; it loads the new one and starts executing it; when it finishes, it returns from exec?
15:47<TrueBrain>in DOS, things are much more simplified
15:47<TrueBrain>but there are a few thingies .. which are tricky
15:48<OwenS>Incidentally... gonna support DPMI? :p
15:48<frosch123>0.9 or 1.0 :p
15:48<OwenS>0.9 is all you need :P
15:48<frosch123>well, 1.0 is useless
15:49<TrueBrain>DPMI is uselss.
15:49<OwenS>Except for running old games :P
15:49<TrueBrain>eitherway, EXEC makes a new PSP block, which is not as easy as you might hope
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15:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17139 /trunk/ (21 files in 10 dirs): -Change: add the concept of sound sets
15:52<frosch123>poor files.h, it was such a nice file once :(
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* don't drop the keyboard
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16:06<xmakina>Rubidium: Sound sets?
16:06-!-PeterT [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:07<+glx>xmakina: yes replacement
16:07<Alberth>Sound*S* sets
16:07<Tefad>plural sets?
16:07<xmakina>paving the way for OpenSounds?
16:08*frosch123 imagines the number of noobs who won't get the difference between opengfx and opensfx
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16:11<Aali>crashed VC2008 by backspacing some text
16:11<Aali>pure quality software
16:11<Alberth>Tefad: multiple sounds
16:12<Tefad>that's understood when you say set
16:12<Tefad>you don't say characters set
16:13<Tefad>unless i'm from mars.. *shrug*
16:13<xmakina>good lord - anyone else looking at the Cindini 2.0 thread?
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> Sound*S* sets <- how the hell are you supposed to pronounce that?
16:23<@petern>in german, you'd write it as "sounds, sets"
16:24<@petern>and sound set is correct, anyway
16:24<Alberth>I only write it, and never say it :p
16:26<TrueBrain> <- such shit makes me sick :(
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>petern: you don't actually know any german, do you? :p
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it's a set of sonds, but a sound set
16:28-!-z-MaTRiX [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i press keys and they don't respond :(
16:29<@petern>Eddi|zuHause, going by the apparent german rules of 'put a comma in if you pause'
16:29<Alberth>I didn't miss that u :)
16:29<Tefad>Eddi|zuHause: happens to me when i use my crappy KVM
16:29<@petern>sound sets would be more than one sound set, and a sound set contains many sounds
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i corrected one while typing, and missed the other
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>petern: but you don't actually pause there ;)
16:30<Alberth>Knowing RB, I doubt that we have a limit on the number of sets :P
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>why can't you type "r[tab]" instead of a silly abbreviation?
16:32<Alberth>no need to wake RB here imho
16:33<Alberth>good night all
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>you don't actually know if he doesn't also have a highlight on RB
16:33<Alberth>that's his choice
16:34<Alberth>on his name, chance is about 95 %
16:35<TrueBrain>night AL
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen people respond on the weirdest alterations of their nick :p
16:35<Alberth>night TB :)
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16:35<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that can also be because they read this channel (I know, suprising!)
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>also stuff like "i should take <more or less common word> out of the highlight list" after some random statement :p
16:37-!-TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>or one person complaining that he gets highlighted on the other person's nick :p
16:37<TrueBrain>for me only TrueBrain highlights .. can't be arsed if people don't use my name :p
16:38<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: orudge says that about me :P
16:38<Ammler>Truelight :-)
16:38<+glx>OwenS: yes owen HLs him
16:38<Ammler>hmm, maybe that was the reason you changed the nick ;-)
16:40<OwenS>glx: Apparently #openttdcoop is on perpeptual highlight if I'm playing (I play as Owen to avoid self highlight :P )
16:40<TrueBrain>then you do all this work to make an app to work in your emu ... does it do a 21:4B :(
16:40<TrueBrain>EXEC :P
16:42<TrueBrain>opcode 0x6B ... yeah, one of the few I couldn't find any real documentation on ...
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16:44<OwenS>IMUL reg16/32, imm8 (sign extended); first byte 6Bh
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16:44<OwenS>Apparently it takes 5 clocks on an original Athlon :p
16:45<OwenS>(Well... has 5 cycle latency)
16:45<OwenS>TrueBrain: That help?
16:45<TrueBrain>not really :)
16:45<@orudge>OwenS: yes... it'd be nice if mIRC had a "don't highlight" list ;)
16:45<TrueBrain>but tnx anyway ;)
16:46<OwenS>Signed multiply the register by the sign extended value of the immediate byte
16:49<TrueBrain>the problem is the reading :)
16:50<TrueBrain>69 /r iw IMUL r16,r/m16,imm16 9-22/12-25 word register := r/m16 *
16:50<TrueBrain> immediate word
16:50<TrueBrain>69 /r iw IMUL r16,imm16 9-22/12-25 word register := r/m16 *
16:50<TrueBrain> immediate word
16:50<TrueBrain>there is absolutely NOTHING I can do with that ..
16:50<OwenS>I'm lost =/
16:51<TrueBrain>opcode 69
16:51<OwenS>Hang on, digging out AMD manuals :p
16:51<TrueBrain>has 2 documented parameters
16:51<Xaroth>TrueBrain: weren't you off to bed like half an hour ago :P
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16:51<TrueBrain>Xaroth: me? No. Albert? Yes.
16:51<Xaroth>OpenDune done yet? :P
16:51<TrueBrain>haha :)
16:51<TrueBrain>no :p
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16:51<TrueBrain>but the start is not far away
16:52<SmatZ>TrueBrain: what's the problem?
16:52<Xaroth>lemme guess, for me to help will require me to learn C.. right?
16:52<TrueBrain>SmatZ: see above :)
16:52<TrueBrain>Xaroth: yup
16:52<TrueBrain>and at this stage: assembly :p
16:52<Xaroth>I actually tried assembly once
16:52<OwenS>IMUL reg16, reg/mem16, imm16 : Multiply the contents of a 16-bit register or memory operand by a sign extended immediate word and put the signed result in the 16-bit desination register
16:52<Xaroth>... untill i fubar'ed the pc i was testing thigns on
16:52<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I have 69 and 6b with 2 parameters .. and I don't know what seperates them
16:52<OwenS>I wanna know how it decides whether it's a register or memory operand
16:53<SmatZ>TrueBrain: ? run normal address decoding
16:53<TrueBrain>OwenS: that part is in the opcode, easy to decode
16:53<SmatZ>then there is 2B of imm16
16:53<SmatZ>as with all (many) other instructions
16:53<SmatZ>except there are two more bytes of immediate operand
16:53<SmatZ>similiar to... shifts
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16:54<SmatZ>MOD is the destination register
16:54<OwenS>TrueBrain: 69, byte specifying registers, 2 byte immediate?
16:54<SmatZ>"address" is the source register
16:55<SmatZ>+ 2 bytes of immediate operand
16:55<OwenS>I'd guess that from the "69 /r iw", i.e, 69, byte for register, immediate word
16:55<TrueBrain>SmatZ: this really is the only command with ambigous .. or the documentation is cooked :)
16:55<SmatZ>TrueBrain: if this helps you (from my emulator)
16:56<OwenS>TrueBrain: I'd suggest grabbing an assembler and assembling some tests :p
16:56<SmatZ>hmm probably it doesn't help
16:56<TrueBrain>IMUL r16,r/m16,imm16 vs IMUL r16,imm16
16:56<TrueBrain>that is my problem :)
16:56<TrueBrain>you assume the first in all cases
16:56<SmatZ>TrueBrain: it has one hidden parameter, don't care about "IMUL r16,imm16"
16:57<TrueBrain>it was the only fucking command I couldn't decipher :p
16:57<OwenS>AMD's doc doesn't list an IMUL r16,imm16
16:57<SmatZ>the parameter is doubled when encoding to computer readable form :)
16:57<SmatZ>IMUL eax, 8 == IMUL eax, eax, 8
16:57<SmatZ>when encoded
16:58<TrueBrain>then why did this stupid documentation ever documented the first case ....
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17:01<SmatZ>[22:55:15] <OwenS> I'd guess that from the "69 /r iw", <=== /r means the MOD is number of destination register (in this notation)
17:01<SmatZ>in the MOD/RM byte
17:01<OwenS>SmatZ: I'll admit not knowing much of what a MOD/RM byte is considering my lack of knowledge of x86 at that level :p
17:02<SmatZ>OwenS: I just hope I remember it correctly ;)
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17:03<OwenS>x86 assembly I can do; with the x86_64 ABI reference handy I can remember AMD64's register calling convention (Would be much easier if x86 registers were simply numbered...)... but I don't actually know the bytes my assembler is kicking out :P
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17:07<SmatZ>OwenS: just %define r1 rax %define r2 rcx ...
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17:07<OwenS>SmatZ: There already IS an r1 :P
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17:08<SmatZ>well, if your assembler understands r1-r8, feel free to use them instead of rax, rcx, ...
17:08<SmatZ>(hmm maybe it starts at r0
17:08<SmatZ>I am used to the "old" naming
17:08<OwenS>r0-r7 are the new regs, but I still have to remember that %rdi is param # 1
17:08<SmatZ>hmm weird assembler you have
17:09<OwenS>x86_64 has 16 regs, rax -> rsp; r0 -> r7
17:09<SmatZ>nasm uses rax-rsp, r8-r15
17:09<OwenS>Oh crap yeah :p
17:09<SmatZ>while maybe r0-r7 is mapped to rax-rsp
17:09<OwenS>Still, it doesn't help since the numbers would jump all over :P
17:10<OwenS>I'd personally be quite happy if x86 got took out back and shot
17:10<SmatZ>you can %define mr0 rdi ...
17:10<SmatZ>not really possible, you know ;)
17:10<SmatZ>with MMX/SSE/FPU you are using numbered registers
17:10<OwenS>Something RISC would be so much nicer. CISC easier to program in assembly my arse
17:11<SmatZ>but they are not general purpose...
17:11<Tefad>x86 isn't going anywhere any time soon
17:11<OwenS>Then I use %rdi, forgetting it's %mr0, and wonder WTF is happening :P
17:11<SmatZ>use only mr then :)
17:12<OwenS>The only nice to program CISC arch I know is m68k. And thats because it's nicely orthagonal
17:12*SmatZ knows only x86 and several PICs... and IA64 a bit
17:12<OwenS>I like the PICs... nice and simple
17:13<SmatZ>yeah :)
17:13<OwenS>Propeller is bloody awesome also
17:13<OwenS>Not only do you get 8 80Mhz (20MIPS) cores, but they have a lovely instruction set also
17:14<OwenS>I'll admit it's a bit funny... each core has 2kb private local RAM which acts as both it's registers, fast RAM and program store...
17:14<TrueBrain>Reg2/Mem = Reg1 IMUL Imm <- SmatZ: I got that right, not?
17:15<SmatZ>TrueBrain: the other way :-/
17:15<SmatZ>reg1 = r/m * imm
17:15<SmatZ>(that reg1 stored in the MOD field)
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17:21<R0b0t1>Does there happen to be a gamesave of the scene on the front screen?
17:21<OwenS>R0b0t1: It is a game save
17:21<OwenS>OpenTTD/data/opntitle.dat is a save file
17:21<R0b0t1>Oh. :-\.
17:22<R0b0t1>I thought it was like, a movie, and not a game running.
17:22<TrueBrain>k, tnx SmatZ, it seems 0x69 works .. now 0x6b .. how to make that in nasm ...
17:23<OwenS>6B /r ib - so same, except sign extended immediate byte?
17:24<TrueBrain>but how do I write that in nasm ...
17:24<OwenS>Multiply by a -128<=x<=127 immediate? :p
17:27<R0b0t1>Sorry for another stupid question, but what is the default starting year?
17:27<OwenS>1950 I think
17:27<TrueBrain>start a game, and you will know
17:27<TrueBrain>know by experience, not by asking :)
17:28<R0b0t1>I had been playing with it alot :-\. Anyhow, thanks.
17:28<TrueBrain>./openttd -c empty.cfg -x
17:28<TrueBrain>and you have the default settings
17:29<SmatZ>TrueBrain: 6B is very similiar to 69, except there is imm8 instead of imm16
17:29<OwenS>Know what would be great? A cheap managed gigabit switch. The combination of those 3 requirements seems to be unobtanium :P
17:29<TrueBrain>SmatZ: well, that turns out to be false
17:29<TrueBrain>there is a imm16 after it :s
17:29<TrueBrain>oh no, lol
17:29<TrueBrain>bad luck :p
17:29<SmatZ>TrueBrain: then it's part of the address or so :-p
17:29*OwenS wonders how TrueBrain knows considering x86 can't be deciphered like that :P
17:30<TrueBrain>I wonder what OwenS tried to say
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17:30<OwenS>How you can know what follows an instruction without decoding it :P
17:30<TrueBrain>you do know bochs?
17:30<OwenS>Using them? Aah :p
17:31<TrueBrain>no, I don't use them, just wanted to mention them
17:31<SmatZ>Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
17:31<OwenS>TrueBrain: You can't look past an instruction without at least decoding enough to know it's length :P
17:31<TrueBrain>either I need to stop touching alcohol, or you guys should start talking sense
17:31<Xaroth>TrueBrain: it's not the alcohol
17:32<Xaroth>unless somebody's been spiking my coke
17:32*OwenS thinks SmatZ needs to stop the alcohol :p
17:32<TrueBrain>OwenS: by the fact I know from what code I compiled the result, I do know :)
17:32<OwenS>Aah :p
17:32<xmakina>quick noai question - how do you get a list of all the vehicles that service a station?
17:33<@Rubidium>by using the right AIVehicleList
17:33*xmakina sees
17:33<xmakina>cheers Rubidium
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17:42<TrueBrain>yippie!! Finally got it corrected ...
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17:45<TrueBrain>0xC9 ... that is in general not a command an app should execute, not?
17:45<TrueBrain>Leave, to be exact
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17:46<OwenS>Leave... isn't that something like BP -> RSP; pop BP?
17:47<SmatZ>TrueBrain: valid opcode
17:47<OwenS>Yep it is :p
17:47<SmatZ>quite simple one
17:47<SmatZ>compared to enter (C8 ?) with two imm8 and strange behaviour
17:47<OwenS>It's equivilant to MOV xSP, xBP; POP xBP
17:47<SmatZ>took me some time to understand what it does ;)
17:49<OwenS>SmatZ: Enter is C8, and it's C8 iw ib :p
17:50<OwenS>And SmatZ, I agree, ENTER is convoluted and probably very very slow
17:50<OwenS>At least for the case where the IB is not 0
17:51<SmatZ>OwenS: of course, my fault :)
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17:52<OwenS>For the case of the IB being 0, it's pretty much push rbp; sub rsp, IW
17:52<TrueBrain>and guess what the next opcode is this app requires? :)
17:52<SmatZ>OwenS: yeah, the only version I was ever using :)
17:52<TrueBrain>wow! How did you guess? :p
17:53<SmatZ>+ mov rbp, rsp
17:53<OwenS>Get the AMD docs. They have a nice C like pseudo code. You need it! :P
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17:54<SmatZ>the thing it copies data from stack
17:54<SmatZ> Push[EBP];
17:54<SmatZ>was misunderstood by me for some time
17:55<SmatZ>still I don't see real use for it
17:55<OwenS>Neither do I
17:55<OwenS>And I'd say that documentation sucks; the AMD ones are better
17:56<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I really have a hard time following what you are trying to say :(
17:56<OwenS>You'll be delighted to know that my processor design's enter is much simpler :p
17:57<OwenS>push fp; sub sp, r0, N, sp would be the equivilant due to my slightly crazy 4 operand instruction format :p
17:57<SmatZ>TrueBrain: looking at my emulator's code, I haven't finished enter
17:57<SmatZ>the imm8 part is ignored
17:57<SmatZ>and it works great
17:57<SmatZ>so... you can (almost) safely ignore it too :)
17:58<OwenS>I'd probably just assert(imm8) :P
17:58<OwenS>assert(imm8 == 0) even :p
17:59<SmatZ>also it seems only 5 bits of imm8 are used
17:59<SmatZ>reading my code... but it can be broken :)
17:59<TrueBrain>if (node->level != 0) raise NodeError(false, "Unsupported ENTER level '%d'", node->level);
17:59<TrueBrain>OwenS: much more safe than 'assert'
18:00<OwenS>TrueBrain: True :P
18:00<OwenS>raise NodeErorr? What language is this?
18:00<TrueBrain>SmatZ: level = level mod 32, so yes
18:00<TrueBrain>OwenS: try C++
18:00<OwenS>Is it not throw? :p
18:01<TrueBrain>too much Python lately :p
18:01<OwenS>Next you'll be doing try {} except(SomeException e) :P
18:03<OwenS>How hard would it be to implement another code generation backend for your system? :p
18:03<TrueBrain>emu_push(emu_bp); emu_bp = emu_sp; emu_sp -= this->size;
18:03<TrueBrain>sounds reasonable ..
18:04<TrueBrain>hahahaha :) An application that doesn't run on timer, but on how fast it can execute its shit
18:04<TrueBrain>REALLY fast, I tell you :p
18:04<OwenS>I think the most silly bit about the x86 ENTER/LEAVE mess is that it prevents LEAVE from being an implicit RET...
18:05<OwenS>You probably don't care but that documentation doesn't state that the instruction checks that *SP is writable before it returns :p
18:05<TrueBrain>this is realmode ..
18:05<TrueBrain>there is no way to make sp non-readable
18:05<OwenS>So don't care then :p
18:05<TrueBrain>there is no way to make sp non-writable
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18:06<OwenS>I want to know who's stupid idea that was though... must kill optimization
18:06<OwenS>Wait.. the whole instruction is stupid and unoptimizable. never mind
18:06<OwenS>It probably executes in about 300 cycles of microcode...
18:07<TrueBrain>k, tnx both for the help on leave/enter :)
18:07<TrueBrain>another application that runs
18:08<SmatZ>ENTER C8h VectorPath 14/17/ 5
18:08<SmatZ> 19/21
18:08<SmatZ> Execution latencies for nesting levels 0/1/2/3.
18:08<SmatZ>so not THAT much
18:08<SmatZ>2-3 * imm8
18:09<TrueBrain>ENTER is faster than manual doing the same
18:09<TrueBrain>so ...
18:09<TrueBrain>(for level = 0)
18:10<OwenS>SmatZ: What processor?
18:10<TrueBrain>time to play Dune2 :)
18:10<SmatZ> Software Optimization
18:10<SmatZ>Guide for AMD Athlon™ 64
18:11<Xaroth>TrueBrain: less playing more OpenTTD :P
18:11<Xaroth>er, OpenDUNE even
18:11<SmatZ>umm it's 5 years old document
18:11<SmatZ>guess I should fetch more recent one :-/
18:11<TrueBrain>Xaroth: ghehe :) I need to play to map the application, so playing is goooooooddd!!!
18:11<TrueBrain>just it no longer works .. hmm ...
18:12<Xaroth>i take it you didn't compile a xp64 version did you?
18:12<Xaroth>that way I can play.. and be helpful :P
18:12<TrueBrain>Xaroth: haha :) I doubt this will run on Windows :)
18:12<Xaroth>thought so
18:12<TrueBrain>did absolutely no attempt on that :)
18:13<TrueBrain>see no reason why it would not work .. but .. we all know Windows :p
18:13<TrueBrain>why oh why don't I get an output ... hmm ...
18:13<R0b0t1>Q: I have a problem, how do I fix it? A: Get Linux.
18:14<TrueBrain>ah, there it goes
18:16*xmakina is watching JAMI build her first network
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18:22<TrueBrain>FF 3.5 feels a bit faster
18:23<TrueBrain>hmmm ... clearly somewhere I hit a bug in dune2 .... I gained money while no harvester was in its base :p
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18:23<Xaroth>sometimes you do get one or two credits
18:23<TrueBrain>no, it just climbed to ... well .. over the 1000
18:23<TrueBrain>then I completed the mission :p
18:23<Xaroth>-THAT- is a bug
18:23<OwenS>TrueBrain: I have a hunch the bug isn't in Dune :P
18:24<TrueBrain>I tend to agree
18:24<TrueBrain>also the fact it hangs after you hope to go to the second mission :p
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18:24<TrueBrain>I guess there is some opcode which doesn't behave as it should :p
18:26<OwenS>Hmm... G++ may object if you name a variable "else"
18:27<Tefad>it is a key word.
18:27<OwenS>It's most inconvinient for someone developing a programming language :p
18:27<TrueBrain>bah, I guess I do need to look into support 0x66 (dword access) or find a way to make sure checkit doesn't use it :p
18:28<SmatZ>TrueBrain: force 3 highest bits of flags (16bit) to be always 1
18:28<SmatZ>or so
18:29<SmatZ>the other way
18:29<SmatZ>;vloz 2,0xcc80,1,0xf0 ; or ah,0xf0 ; 8086
18:29<SmatZ>;vloz 2,0xe480,1,0x0f ; and ah,0x0f ; 80286
18:29<SmatZ>8086 sets 4 highest bits to 1
18:30<SmatZ>80286 tests the always to 0
18:30<SmatZ>try to
18:30<SmatZ>try that
18:30<SmatZ>when emulating PUSHF
18:30<TrueBrain>so you mean the 'iopl' and 'nt' flag? And a 'reserved' bit
18:31<TrueBrain>still it wants to execute 0x66
18:31<TrueBrain>(I had them all on '1')
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18:32<SmatZ>there are differences in sidt and sgdt...
18:32<SmatZ>but it's probably not testing that
18:33<OwenS>Store pointer to interrupt description table
18:33<OwenS>I can't imagine any difference in that outside Protected Mode though
18:33<TrueBrain>I guess I should look into a compare with DOSBox again :)
18:37<TrueBrain>hmm .. it is after a keystroke
18:37<TrueBrain>really hard ..
18:39<OwenS>Syntax wise, if(cond) statement else statement or if cond then statement else statement?
18:40-!-tdev [] has quit [Quit: free open source vehicle simulator:]
18:41<OwenS>"Rigs of Rods" always makes me think someone typo'd...
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>how do you mean?
18:43<OwenS>My automatic typo detector thinks rods should be roads in context... not helped by "RIgs of Rods" as a name not making sense :p
18:43<TrueBrain>I was thinking about frogs :P
18:45<Tefad>bon jour?
18:45<OwenS>It's one word, bonjour :p
18:45<Tefad>BON JOUR for emphasis.
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18:47<TrueBrain>SmatZ: checkit really does use 0x66 ...
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: what's a "rigso frog" then?
18:48<TrueBrain>but it looks like it uses it to detect if it is a 80286?
18:48<TrueBrain>what happened on a 80286 when you exected 0x66 or 0x67?
18:48<OwenS>TrueBrain: I'm assuming making the code also do 32-bit ops is too hard? :p
18:49<TrueBrain>OwenS: well, when I considered it sooner, not really .. but now .. might be :p
18:49<SmatZ>TrueBrain: int6 I guess
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18:51<OwenS>BTW, VirtualPC differs from real processors by supporting infinitely long instructions with lots of redundant prefixes :p
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18:53<Aali>I doubt it supports infinitely long instructions
18:53<welterde>is AITileList supposed to contain no elements, after i called addRectangle(start, end) ?
18:53<OwenS>Aali: Ok, 4gbyte :P
18:53<OwenS>If you're smart you might get it to wrap arround :p
18:54<SmatZ>doesn't it assert int6 for instructions > 16B?
18:54<Aali>but then it's not a real instruction, just a bunch of prefixes :)
18:55<OwenS>SmatZ: VirtualPC doesn't
18:55<OwenS>It's one way of detecting it
18:56<SmatZ>TrueBrain: when I force bits 12-15 to be zero for PUSHF, checkit detects 80826
18:56<SmatZ>so it shouldn't EXECUTE any 0x66
18:56<SmatZ>but maybe there is a jump just before that
18:56<SmatZ>so you are decoding something that is never executed
18:57<TrueBrain>SmatZ: at decoding, it just makes it a HALT command
18:57<TrueBrain>at executing, it aborts
18:57<SmatZ>ok :)
18:57<SmatZ>it shouldn't be executed if you zero those bits
18:58<TrueBrain>00000246 <- my flags
18:58<TrueBrain>(after the pushf)
18:59<TrueBrain>so they are zero, I would say :)
18:59<TrueBrain>by any chance you know where it does the check?
19:00<OwenS>I'm curious... you're flags are 32-bit wide :P
19:00<TrueBrain>to compare it with DOSBox
19:00<OwenS>aah... which uses EFlags due to DPMI :p
19:00<TrueBrain>and when I realised the 0x66 problem, I started to slowly add bits of support for it
19:00<TrueBrain>no, it is pushed in ecx
19:00<OwenS>*is lost*
19:01<TrueBrain>pop cx
19:01<OwenS>is still lost what you mean :p
19:01<TrueBrain>DOSBox is 32bit
19:01<TrueBrain>ecx is 32bit
19:01<TrueBrain>I want to compare
19:01<TrueBrain>so I print my 16bit cx as 32bit
19:03<SmatZ>[00:58:28] <TrueBrain> (after the pushf) <=== I mean the value pushed to the stack :)
19:04<TrueBrain>SmatZ: that is what I meant too :)
19:04<SmatZ>good :)
19:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17141 /extra/catcodec/ (13 files): [catcodec] -Add: catcodec, a simple tool to decode/encode cat files that can be used for sound replacement.
19:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17140 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change: allow higher sample rate and higher quality samples. Based on work by orudge.
19:04<TrueBrain>yet still it does execute 0x66 :s
19:04<SmatZ> what test does it do after pop cx?
19:04<SmatZ>it does pushf, right? what then?
19:05<TrueBrain>pop cx, other pops
19:05<TrueBrain>never really uses the value
19:07<SmatZ>it really has to test cx
19:07<TrueBrain>according to you, or according to executing checkit? :)
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19:08<SmatZ>according to me :-p
19:08<SmatZ>why would it read the flags
19:08<SmatZ>and never test it
19:09<TrueBrain>no idea ... it later on pushed it back on the stack
19:09<TrueBrain>after which I lose track of it
19:11<TrueBrain>hmm .. DOSBox always runs in 386 .. there is no 286 mode
19:11<TrueBrain>so he is of no use to me :p
19:11<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I can't seem to find any pushf which it uses to check for 286/386 .. :(
19:12<TrueBrain>okay, I take that back ..
19:13<TrueBrain>(the last call is to code containing 0x66 :p)
19:13<SmatZ>1238:0000002C pop ax
19:13<SmatZ>1238:0000002D and ax,7000
19:14<SmatZ>1238:00000030 je 0000006A ($+38)
19:14<SmatZ>I think it's pretty clear
19:14<TrueBrain>hmmm ...
19:14<SmatZ>that jump should be taken
19:14<TrueBrain>somehow the flags were activated :p
19:14<oskari89>Hmmm. r17141 allows higher sound quality? :)
19:14<oskari89>On SFX?
19:14<OwenS>Interesting they used and rather than test
19:14<SmatZ>yeah :)
19:15<oskari89>And as well as .grf additional sounds @ better quality?
19:15<TrueBrain>7 .. that is 1 + 2 + 4
19:15<TrueBrain>so iopl and nt
19:15<SmatZ>no sh*y
19:15<OwenS>wtf... jmp short 0000006F ... aka jump to the immediately following instruction!
19:15<TrueBrain>OwenS: read careful
19:15*xmakina releases JAMI to the wild
19:15<SmatZ>OwenS: :-p
19:15<TrueBrain>I never ever set iopl to 3 :(
19:16<TrueBrain>omg ...
19:16<OwenS>oh lol
19:16<SmatZ>TrueBrain: it probably does some "mov ax, 0xffff; push ax; popf; pushf; pop ax"
19:16<TrueBrain>SmatZ: <- the lines above that
19:16<SmatZ>TrueBrain: :-p
19:16<TrueBrain>so that test ALWAYS succeeds
19:16<OwenS>I thought you did the masking in pushf?
19:17<SmatZ>it should be ZERO
19:17<SmatZ>if you are emulating 286
19:17<TrueBrain>so a 286 refuses those flags?
19:17<TrueBrain>cool :)
19:17<OwenS>Unimplemented flags are forced zeros normally :p
19:17<OwenS>Saves silicon :p
19:17<TrueBrain>I didn't expect it to react at all on it, just pipe it through the register ..
19:17<SmatZ>[00:29:58] <SmatZ> 8086 sets 4 highest bits to 1
19:17<SmatZ>[00:30:08] <SmatZ> 80286 tests the always to 0
19:17<SmatZ>[00:30:12] <SmatZ> try that
19:17<SmatZ>[00:30:23] <SmatZ> when emulating PUSHF
19:17<TrueBrain>SmatZ: how should I know it FORCES that :)
19:18<SmatZ>what else could I say....
19:18<SmatZ>*tests -> sets...
19:18<TrueBrain>see, there it went wrong :)
19:18<OwenS>It appears pastebins still being spammed =/
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: nobody actually cares
19:19<OwenS>Incidentally... who's been doing x86 asm?
19:20*TrueBrain hugs SmatZ! SORRY! I DIDNT KNOW!!! :)
19:20<TrueBrain>now it indeed skips those statements :)
19:20<TrueBrain>OwenS: read back a few hours or so :p
19:21<OwenS>crap 3 ongoing conversations now
19:21<OwenS>What causes two people to start conversing with me at once? :P
19:22<Markk>OwenS: was it you who lived i Canada?
19:22<OwenS>No. UK
19:22<Markk>Okay (:
19:22<OwenS>In Canada I'd probably get better broadband :p
19:23<Markk>How fast do you have now then?
19:23<OwenS>8mbit, syncs at 3.8mbit, actually about 1mbit...
19:23<OwenS>I hate BT.
19:23<OwenS>Week from now I'll have 20mbit, syncing at ~16mbit
19:23-!-xmakina [] has quit []
19:23<TrueBrain>100mbit, syncs at 100mbit, actually about 100mbit
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>i have like 0,4mbit
19:24<Markk>I have 50/10 at home, actually about 48/12Mbit
19:24<OwenS>The uploads interesting there :p
19:25<Markk>It's cable
19:25<OwenS>So is what I'm going to :p
19:25<SmatZ>TrueBrain: great :)
19:25<Markk>Fastet cable in sweden I think
19:25<OwenS>Who by? I know more than I ever intended to about Swedish broadband thanks to a swedish friend :p
19:25<OwenS>The best in the UK is Virgin's 50/5 cable package
19:26<Markk>Don't you have fibre over there?
19:26<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I am already at test 7a of 12!! :)
19:27<TrueBrain>btw, INT16:00 and INT16:01 work VERY different then documented :p
19:27<SmatZ>TrueBrain: are you sure?
19:27<TrueBrain>double checked with DOSBox
19:27<SmatZ>maybe it's INT16:10:00 or so?
19:27<OwenS>Markk: Nope. Virgin's is FTTC (Fiber to the cabinet - which is about 10m from my housel), BT are testing FTTP (Fiber to the pedestal - I dunno what they're using for the last mile)
19:28<TrueBrain>DOSBox keeps on acting like a key is pressed with 16:01
19:28<Markk>Okey :P
19:28<TrueBrain>which is what checkit expects
19:28<@Rubidium>OwenS: FTTC isn't Fibre to the CPU?
19:28<Markk>Vi have ADSL, Cable (Some houses) and Fibre (Ethernet from the switch in the house I think).
19:29<OwenS>Rubidium: Thats a rather absurd statement until we get optical chips :P
19:29<SmatZ>TrueBrain: 16:01 - key is pressed -> ZF=0, AX=keycode; else ZF=1
19:29<Markk>Fibre directly to the CPU <3
19:29<TrueBrain>SmatZ: yup, DOSBox is sending a constant AX=0100
19:29<OwenS>My swedish friend has BBB fiber I think
19:30<Markk>Okey :)
19:30<TrueBrain>SmatZ: hmm .. or maybe I fucked up ZF ..
19:30<Markk>BBB (Bredbandsbolaget, lit. Broadbandcompany) is now owned by Telenor
19:30<TrueBrain>ZF = 0 is pressed? That might be the thing I failed to realise :p
19:31<SmatZ>the failure is often between the computer and chair ;)
19:31<TrueBrain>now it wants 13:8 from me ...
19:31<TrueBrain>which is XT
19:31<OwenS>Markk: I thought that was the case. What did I say about knowing more about Swedish broadband than I ever intended to learn? :p
19:31<TrueBrain>so I just ignore it :p
19:31<Markk>OwenS: :D
19:31<Markk>Always good too know
19:31<Markk>Or not
19:31<Markk>Depend on how you see it
19:31<OwenS>It's rather useless, unless perhaps I get an Erasmus exchange year in Sweden or something :P
19:32<TrueBrain>INT13:80 ... I don't have any documentation on that :p Lol :)
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19:33<SmatZ>are you sure 13:08 is XT-specific?
19:33<@petern>Rubidium, please see the commit message of r16784
19:33<TrueBrain>SmatZ: my docs state that
19:33<Markk>I like the word shag
19:34<Markk>Brittish as hell
19:35<SmatZ>TrueBrain: my docs state otherwise... it should be AT+XT
19:35<SmatZ>but I guess it doesn't hurt to ignore it
19:35<TrueBrain>XT & newer
19:36<SmatZ>just it may be detected as XT instead of AT
19:36<SmatZ>AT > XT, TrueBrain
19:36<TrueBrain>oh ... lol :)
19:36<TrueBrain>my bad :)
19:36<@Rubidium>petern: you mean that ottd should try to find the highest output of a .cat and use that as default for play rate/MxInitialize?
19:38<@petern>just that until the sample rate converter is improved, it will suck for 11025Hz samples
19:39<OwenS>TTD used 11025Hz samples? Ouch
19:39<TrueBrain>WHOHO! It is up to the Base step .. :)
19:40<@Rubidium>petern: that's a good incentive to get higher quality sound samples then :)
19:40<@petern>yeah right
19:40<@petern>like free graphics...
19:40<TrueBrain>euhm ... why did they waste a full interrupt to getting the memory size? (INT 12) ...
19:41<TrueBrain>okay, checkit runs .. I just can't nagivate :p
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19:42<SmatZ>great :)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>i never really understood what interrupts are
19:43<TrueBrain>calls to the software/hardware
19:44<TrueBrain>great, now it calls 0F01 as opcode ... I don't have those implemented :p
19:44<SmatZ>I guess it's some read from/to MSW
19:44<SmatZ>(80286 version of CR0)
19:45<SmatZ>TrueBrain: if you change that PUSHF to sets bits 12-15 to 1, it will emulate 8086
19:45<SmatZ>and it will never try to execute 0F01 ;)
19:45<SmatZ> | 0xF000
19:45<SmatZ>instead of
19:45<SmatZ> & ~0xF000
19:46<TrueBrain>euh, 0xF we just concluded executed 0x66 ..
19:46<SmatZ>it will exit earlier
19:46<SmatZ>it should
19:47<OwenS>This architecture is so full of stupid instructions which shouldn't be available to user mode programs which are...
19:48<TrueBrain>I love you SmatZ :)
19:48<TrueBrain>15 buttons mouse .. can't be right :p
19:49<SmatZ>TrueBrain: same here ;)
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19:49<TrueBrain>I think I need to correct my video flags :)
19:50<TrueBrain>an XT machine with VGA .. lol
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>XT is 8086 and AT is 80286?
19:51<OwenS>(Conviniently ignoring the 80186/80188 :P )
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>did there exist such a thing?
19:52<TrueBrain>I wonder where it reads the video mode from ..
19:52<TrueBrain>I thought I set all bits for that correct by now :p
19:53<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Yes. Mostly used in embedded designs
19:53<SmatZ>TrueBrain: 8-)
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i never heard of it...
19:53<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: I think there were 80286/XT
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: then what was the distinction?
19:54<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: I think in HDDs
19:54<TrueBrain>SmatZ: I can't go left or right (those buttons don't work :(), so I can't navigate to test and benchmark :(
19:54<SmatZ>XTs had 4 floppys
19:54<SmatZ>ATs had 2xfloppy + 2xHDD
19:54<SmatZ>but most likely the main difference was somewhere else
19:54<SmatZ>things I forget...
19:55<OwenS>SmatZ: The main differences were CPU (8088 vs 80286) and bus (8-bit ISA "XT Bus" vs 16-bit ISA "AT Bus")
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>my first computer was a 386
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19:56<Eddi|zuHause>i threw it away a few weeks ago
19:56<SmatZ>XT 286 Sep 1986 286 Slow hard disk
19:57<SmatZ>there were 80286 XT
19:57<OwenS>SmatZ: Not by IBM
19:57-!-tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:57<SmatZ>OwenS: google at least :)
19:59<TrueBrain>int 21:52 .. those typical things I just don't want to fill in
19:59<SmatZ>according to that article, the only difference was 16bit ISA bus in ATs
19:59<SmatZ>which is strange...
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19:59<SmatZ>I would expect some deeper difference
20:00<OwenS>The XT 286 looks like a cheapo they produced because it was cheaper to make XTs with 286s than 8088s (economy of scale and all)
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember talk about a switch from DD to HD 3,5" disks
20:01<SmatZ>OwenS: something like 80386SX
20:01<OwenS>I have a 386SX laptop here :p
20:02<OwenS>It's sitting on my windowsil :p
20:02<SmatZ>oh :)
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>i have a 486SX
20:02<SmatZ>I have some too :)
20:02<SmatZ>I have "UMC" 80486 @ 50MHz :)
20:02<TrueBrain>oeh, this was a good day :)
20:02<OwenS>The LTE/386 (20Mhz, 2MB ram) runs GEM fine, which orudge may have at one point been interested in :P
20:03<OwenS>It lacks an inbuilt pointing device but does have a PS/2 port. Which I don't know if is a mouse or keyboard one...
20:03<SmatZ> :)
20:04<OwenS>Mouse one. Didn't work with my Intelimouse though. Strange
20:04<SmatZ>hehe :)
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20:06<OwenS>I think Vesa "Very Long" Local Bus wins the "Stupid and impractical" award: :P
20:07<SmatZ>yeah :) I got some VLB boards, graphics card and controllers :)
20:07<SmatZ>good it didn't last long
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>i remember the time when they sold such things
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20:08<Eddi|zuHause>what's actually so bad about it?
20:08<OwenS>Rather a dodgy bus as well from a signal integrity stand point
20:08<SmatZ>it's looooooooong
20:08<OwenS>Running out the processor bus over 3 cards = not smart
20:08*SmatZ doesn't remember details about the way it works
20:09<OwenS>SmatZ: It's the bus you'd get if you ran a 486 memory bus out over an edge connector. It's an ugly hack
20:09<SmatZ>parts of the bus work at 8MHz (ISA part), and the second part works at... xxx MHz?
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes... it's long... but that doesn't explain anything... my first graphics card and my first sound card were extremely long
20:10<SmatZ>well, from my few user experiences, it was hard to make the cards seated
20:10<OwenS>SmatZ: The ISA part is 8mhz and handles interrupts and IO ports. The VLB part handles memory and runs at processor clock. It's pins are directly tied to the processor which isn't designed to drive signals across 3 cards
20:10<SmatZ>when it wasn't perfectly fit, computer didn't boot up
20:10<SmatZ>(start at all)
20:10<SmatZ>OwenS: interesting :)
20:11<+glx>of course how can you perfectly seat a card across 2 connectors?
20:11<SmatZ>I had hard times making one computer with VLB run
20:11<SmatZ>when those cards weren't perfectly seated, it didn't start
20:11<SmatZ>and it was extremely hard to make them seated...
20:11<SmatZ>but maybe it was just my bad luck :)
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember some computer magazine's review stating something like "the VLB supports 2 cards at 33MHz and 1 card at 50MHz"
20:12<TrueBrain>cool, LoadRunner reinitialized itself over and over and over
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20:12<+glx>looking at the pic I'd say it's not a case of luck :)
20:12<OwenS>It's a case of masochism :p
20:13<+glx>it was already possible to incorrectly plug an ISA card
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>i never had problems with placing an isa card
20:15<+glx>anyway the only ISA card I tried to plug in the old P120 board never worked (3com)
20:16<+glx>but that was a "plug'n'play" issue ;)
20:16<OwenS>I've never used an ISA card :p
20:16<TrueBrain>you are too young
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>i had plenty of isa cards
20:16<SmatZ>I still have :-p
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20:16<TrueBrain>I remember the first computer with a PCI slot
20:17<OwenS>I think the first card I installed was a PCI Voodo 3300 (Or was it a modem? I can't remember :P )
20:17<+glx>I still have 4 3com ISA cards :)
20:17<OwenS>Aah... 3dfx... how I miss your boxart
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>i remember how i bought my first SVGA card...
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>it was a used one...
20:19<TrueBrain>haha, my bugs in Dune2 seems to come from .. well .. paniced way I trigger interrupts and stuff when moving mouse and pressing keys :p
20:19<TrueBrain>it is not that I wrote it nicely :p
20:19<TrueBrain>I remember the first time I initialized SVGA resolution
20:19<+glx>you send too many info at the same time ?
20:19<TrueBrain>it was like: WOW! HOW DID YOU DO THAT?!
20:20<TrueBrain>problem is that my JIT can take a bit of time
20:20<TrueBrain>then it catches up ...
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>i couldn't find the graphics card in the SC2000 setup, because it was called slightly differently there...
20:21<+glx>yeah the fun to find the right card in setup
20:21<TrueBrain>configuring soundcards
20:21<TrueBrain>I remember I always gave up
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>and Siedler crashed when i entered SVGA mode
20:21<TrueBrain>we came such a lng way since then ... Plug&Pray being the first step
20:21<TrueBrain>nowedays everything just .. happens
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>but Siedler was hellishly unstable anyway
20:22<+glx>luckily I always had SB/adlib compatible
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>sound card was easy usually...
20:22<+glx>unless on linux
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>you could usually select "AWE 32" directly, and then enter the always same numbers: 220, 330, 5, 1, 5
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>some games even had a working autodetect
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20:23<OwenS>On Windows everything works until it breaks iself. On Linux things tend to come broken but stay working once fixed. The quantity of out of the box breakage on Linux is decreasing :p
20:24<TrueBrain>yet, we no longer have to fiddle as much we had with DOS stuff :)
20:24<+glx>I remember myself needing to compile kernel to have working sound
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't know linux back then
20:24<+glx>stupid crystal sound chip
20:24<TrueBrain>continueing to the next mission really doesn't work
20:24<TrueBrain>screen goes black, and .. that is that :p
20:25<OwenS>Things have never been that bed for me. Original Ubuntu I tried (5.04?) it didn't work, but it did in the then Debian Stable (Sarge) - strangeness :P
20:25<+glx>yeah DOS, 1 different boot disk for each game
20:26<+glx>OwenS: I started with suse 7.0
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't use boot disks (usually). i created a batch file where i could replace autoexec.bat/config.sys and then reboot
20:26<TrueBrain>things to do for tomorrow: move interrupt shit to places DOSBox has them too .. allowing even easier cpulog compares :)
20:26<OwenS>glx: I think I tried SuSE first and it failed to netinstall so I burnt a Ubuntu disk... didn't work so I burnt a Debian disk... worked :p
20:27<OwenS>Sorry, it wasn't sound that was broken; it was networking
20:27<OwenS>I didn't test sound as I didn't have any ot play :p
20:27<TrueBrain>for now, I wish you all a good night. SmatZ: thanks again for all your help and insight, couldn't have done it without you :) The rest: thanks for the support ;)
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>i remember my first linux installation didn't run well either...
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>i gave up on it, because i had no internet back then
20:28<OwenS>I think I tried Mandriva as well and that didn't work. I was surprisingly persistent
20:29<+glx>I never had problems with mandriva
20:29<OwenS>I somehow managed to end up with an XVWM (?) install with just Firefox :p
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>well, my demands at a linux installation were that it ran well enough so i could scrap everything windows related...
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't want to dual boot
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i don't want to boot
20:30<OwenS>I didn't double boot. I threw away Windows :p
20:31<+glx>I have dual boot but I always run windows :)
20:31<+glx>when I need linux I start a VM
20:31<OwenS>I always recomend that to switchers because it removes the temptation to be lazy and boot Windows :p
20:32<OwenS>My switch determination may have been related to the fact that MS had recently announced that XP x64 would only be available as an OEM product with x64 processors - very very irritating when you had been running the RC2...
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21:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, i still have a windows installlation, but i only ever used that at lan parties
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21:33<Zantor>anyone here?
21:34<Zantor>hi Eddi; long time
21:34<Zantor>I have a couple questions
21:34<Eddi|zuHause>there is nobody here at 3:33
21:34<Zantor>it's 8:34 for me :P
21:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but the world does not revolve around you
21:34<Zantor>my questions are about the coop server
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>then maybe you should ask them in the coop channel
21:35<Zantor>that channel is dormant
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21:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, that may be because of the time.
21:35<Zantor>and that's because most of the OTTD folk are from Europe, not America :P
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, then you know what to do.
21:36<Zantor>clarify, please; I can think of several things to do
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't know, i cannot help you.
21:37<Zantor>can I host a private coop game?
21:37<Zantor>heh that'
21:37<Zantor>is something I could ask the wiki lol
21:38<KenjiE20|LT>there's nothing special about the coop server, that makes it a coop server
21:38<Eddi|zuHause>why would that be any different from any other network game?
21:38<KenjiE20|LT>only the players
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22:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely certain that he got the answer that he searched for
22:02<Eddi|zuHause>(which is not necessarily the answer that he wanted, either)
22:05<Eddi|zuHause>damn, i need a DVD drive that i can put on my desk...
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 10 00:00:35 2009