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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-08-24

---Logopened Mon Aug 24 00:00:07 2009
---Daychanged Mon Aug 24 2009
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01:24<planetmaker>TrueBrain: you might want to adjust namely the last entry there to the current situation
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03:22<thingwath>is there any specific reason for the czech translation to list genders in f m n order (=wrong)?
03:22<Eddi|zuHause>that you have to ask the czech translator who put them there
03:22<keoz>probably a woman
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03:31<thingwath>Ok, translation bugs fall into Interface category?
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03:42<Ammler>he, when does the order of gender matter?
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>when writing them in {G 1 2 3}
03:43<Ammler>so it is only workflow issue?
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04:12<Terkhen>good morning
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm... weird... konqueror/KDE3 can access my camera by media:/camera, but with Dolphin/KDE4, i can't access it...
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04:20<Noldo>it doesn't use usb-mass-storage?
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>no, it uses PTP
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>i have installed gphoto and kio_kamera
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>it works in konqueror/kde3, it even displays thumbnails, but i can't open the files with any application (gwenview, gimp)
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04:24<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: kde4-konqueror?
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: nope
04:25<Ammler>dolphin is by far no replacement for konqueror, imo.
04:28<Ammler>I used digiKam
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>GAAH! i hate this...
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>Error: RPM failed: Command was killed by signal 11 (Segmentation fault).
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>rpm does not recover from that one, until a reboot...
04:31<keoz>dont use rpm's :p
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i will use rpms all day long... fuck off...
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't drag&drop the pictures from konqueror/kde3 into dolphin... have to open another konqueror window...
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05:29<majora06>can anyone help me with a multiplayer problem?
05:29<majora06>please :D?
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05:32<keoz>maybee should you try just asking directly your question ?
05:33<keoz>if somebody can and wants to help you, he will do it
05:33<majora06>my problm is:
05:33<majora06>me and my friend want to play via multiplayer
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05:34<majora06>when one of us starts a server, and generate a game it doesnt appear at my friends or my server list
05:34<majora06>we both have mcafee virus checker and gave full access to openttd (for internet)
05:34<majora06>what to do?
05:34<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
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05:51<qwerty>can anyone help me with my multiplayer problem:
05:51<qwerty>Me and my friend would like to play online via multiplayer in OpenTTD. But when I make or he makes a server and generate a game, it doesn't appear on my or his server list. When he generated a server, I clicked find server, so it'll refresh, but still no server. I do see other servers and we can both join the same server, but not server made by one of us. We both have McAfee internet security and gave full internet access to openttd. What to do
05:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
05:52<TrueBrain>I hate repeating myself :)
05:52<Noldo>that's why you have the bot
05:52<qwerty>openttd port?
05:52<qwerty>what's that?
05:53<TrueBrain>OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound)
05:53<TrueBrain>use our wiki
05:53<TrueBrain>use our forum search
05:53<TrueBrain>use google
05:53<qwerty>ok :D thanks. I'll google now
05:54<TrueBrain>if I would get 5 euro for every time we get this question, I would be filty rich
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05:54<qwerty>hahha, lol
05:55<qwerty>can you help me even more :D:D:D:D:D:D:D?
05:55<TrueBrain>use our wiki
05:55<qwerty>then, how do we start a game?
05:55<qwerty>But I don't understand it :S
05:55<qwerty>like this:
05:56<TrueBrain>omg .... using a wiki is so hard:
05:56<TrueBrain>more clear it won't get, sorry
05:56<qwerty>wiki isnt hard, just where can i put those command things
05:57<qwerty>where can i put the command line syntax?
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06:19<Grelouk>Could we add new factories ?
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06:59<planetmaker>Grelouk, we could
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07:36*TrueBrain hugs Rubidium
07:36<@Rubidium>yet no new episodes of Serenity...
07:36<@Rubidium>so... not enough monkeys
07:36<TrueBrain>you expected them .. why?
07:37<@Rubidium>well, isn't that the point of infinite monkeys? Having everything?
07:38<TrueBrain>but yeah, new episodes of Firefly would be nice ...
07:38<TrueBrain>(Serenity is the movie :p)
07:38<@Rubidium>what? only 45 minute episodes?
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07:39<@Rubidium>I rather have an equal amount of 120 minute episodes
07:39<TrueBrain>get rich
07:39<TrueBrain>make it
07:40<@Rubidium>I don't have enough monkeys
07:40<@Rubidium>and even if they would be procreating like rabbits you still won't have enough :(
07:40<TrueBrain>0 monkeys can't procreate, in general
07:42<@Rubidium>well... there is proof that monkeys can be created out of nothing
07:42<TrueBrain>photons on the other hand, can
07:43<@Rubidium>probably irrefutable too: the bible states that god created them. The other theory is the big bang and Darwinism.
07:43<@Rubidium>so if both agree it must be true
07:47-!-lobstah is now known as lobster
07:49<@Rubidium>and now I'm bored again :(
07:49<TrueBrain>still stoned?
07:49<TrueBrain>which part?
07:50<@Rubidium>my nose... that coating made the house stink like... a petrol station
07:50<@Rubidium>even though the windows are open and there's a nice draft
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08:13<TrueBrain>and bah bah bah, I hate not having VT-X
08:13<TrueBrain>OSX fails on invalid CPU instruction :'(
08:14<TrueBrain>Guru Meditation -2301 (VERR_REM_VIRTUAL_CPU_ERROR)
08:14<TrueBrain>fatal error in recompiler cpu: triple fault
08:14<planetmaker>TrueBrain, in order to satisfy my curiosity: what do you need an OSX-VM for?
08:14<TrueBrain>planetmaker: what do you think?
08:14<@Rubidium>academic purposes ;)
08:14<planetmaker>TrueBrain, a lot. But my crystal ball, you know :-)
08:15<planetmaker>Or I'll have to assume you took on now yet another project: CF-rewrite
08:15<TrueBrain>there is only one VERY obvious answer to that question :)
08:15<TrueBrain>nah, CF-rewrite won't be any time soon
08:15<planetmaker>hm... test environment then?
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08:16<TrueBrain>you do know how the current CF works, not?
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08:16<planetmaker>a VM for each iirc
08:16<TrueBrain>so .. if I am trying to build a OSX VM .. then what would I be trying? :)
08:18<planetmaker>yeah, well. Tell me if I haven't guessed right so far :-)
08:19<planetmaker>hm... wait: currently you don't use an OS-X VM, but a cross-compiler, right?
08:19<planetmaker>he :-)
08:20*Rubidium would just like to say that what he has heard of TB's CF rewrite plans requires some quite structural changes to the build environment, a little too structural changes actually :)
08:20<planetmaker>the problem will be that OS-X queries the TPM module upon startup afaik
08:20<planetmaker>but, of course, that might be hacked :-P
08:21<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I have no idea what you are talking about :p
08:22<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: over stupidities in OSX's design
08:22<+glx>[14:13:14] <TrueBrain> and bah bah bah, I hate not having VT-X <-- I's like to have AMD-V to be able to run 64bit vdi :)
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08:27<TrueBrain>I can't remember when the last time Is aid this, but: REBOOT!
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08:31<planetmaker>wb, TrueBrain :-)
08:38<TrueBrain>tnx :p
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08:39<TrueBrain>I really really really hate it I don't have VT-X :(
08:39<@Rubidium>then fix that problem :)
08:39<TrueBrain>well, I have another older machine which has AMD-V .. so I will try it on that first now :)
08:39<TrueBrain>but as the host is ESXi ..
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08:41*OwenS wonders what TrueBrain wants VT-X (What AMD now calls SVM?) for
08:42<OwenS>And a company called Virona Labs have developed whats essentially a human virus scanner
08:49<pavel1269>true: i jsut talked to that girl, which you said is scary :-D .... she said "i dont care, i have heard a lot of worse things" .. :-O
08:52*TrueBrain hugs Belugas! :)
08:52<@Belugas>jut one thing i want to say
08:52<@Belugas>I WANT TO GO BACK HOME!@!!!!!!
08:53*TrueBrain gives Belugas a note saying he has to go home
08:53<@Rubidium>oh noes... our lovely white whale got beached again :(
08:57<@Belugas>yeah :(
08:57<@Belugas>TrueBrain, boss rejected the note :S
08:57<TrueBrain>hmm .. sucks
09:01<@Belugas>yeah... big time...
09:02<@Belugas>but hey... i cannot complain. I had wonderfull weather, as opposed to my colleagues, who had quite a crappy one...
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09:35<TrueBrain>how do you send CTRL+S in a screen :s
09:35<@Rubidium>ctrl+a - s?
09:37<Sacro>stupid metric users
09:38<@Rubidium>what has it to do with metic?
09:38*Sacro shrugs
09:38<@Belugas>because he's METIculous
09:46<planetmaker> <-- I donate the same ridiculosity to Sacro in his beloved but really rediculous imperial units
09:46<planetmaker>me. s/fr/
09:46<Sacro>7 is the same
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10:36<Eddi|zuHause>why do DVD+RWs not have the equivalent of "bad sectors"?
10:38<@Rubidium>probably because DVDs don't and they want them to be readable in DVD readers
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>what's the easiest way to do "for i in *" recursively?
10:40<TrueBrain>find -type f
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11:12<@Belugas>mmh... i know what was missing... music...
11:12<@Belugas>programs better that way...
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11:58<TrueBrain>it has said before, and I say it again: OSX SUCKS!
11:58<TrueBrain>I think we should drop that target
12:00<_ln>yeah, "we" should.
12:01<_ln>(didn't I suggest that earlier already?)
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12:02<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: at least on the untestable versions of OSX
12:03<@Rubidium>untestable for developers that is
12:03<TrueBrain>Rubidium: so 10.3 ppc, 10.4 ppc, 10.5 ppc, 10.4 intel, 10.5 intel and 10.6 intel? :p
12:03<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: no, we keep support for 10.3.9. That works in PearPC, ask glx
12:04<+glx>it works but can't be build natively ;)
12:04<@Rubidium>but it *is* testable
12:05<@Rubidium>on the other hand, you might call it untestable because the only way to get binaries in there is via a CD which (IIRC) must be connected at boot time
12:06<+glx>also true :)
12:06<+glx>because network support sucks in pearpc
12:07<+glx>it uses TAP
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12:12<TrueBrain>so ... byebye OSX :P
12:12<TrueBrain>Apple didn't want to sponsor us :(
12:13<_ln>did you try?
12:17<williham>Don't drop OSX!
12:17-!-williham is now known as [wito]
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12:18<[wito]>PPC you can probably drop; but intel should be kep
12:18<jojor>is there a patch with sharing infrastructures and cargodist in one?
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12:24<planetmaker>jojor, o
12:24<planetmaker>hi insulfrog
12:26<TrueBrain>[wito]: yeah, tnx for those very wise words
12:27<[wito]>TrueBrain: Seriously; those of us on a mac would never get a seconds peace from the "MACS SUX FOR GAMING OLOLS!" crowd
12:27<TrueBrain>yes, indeed, the reason we complain about OSX is because we are making a game
12:27<[wito]>except it has worked so far; what has changed?
12:27<TrueBrain>it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact we don't have a OSX and can't get OSX running on any of our systems
12:28<+glx>[wito]: no real changes, except every new OSX version breaks stuff in our code
12:28<TrueBrain>if I would make a piechart about how much time goes in what target, from my point of view
12:28<TrueBrain>OSX would takes 90%
12:29<[wito]>What's the biggest hurdle?
12:29<TrueBrain>but okay, because [wito] says so, we can drop PPC, and we should keep Intel
12:29<[wito]>Lack of a native build machine?
12:29<TrueBrain>lack of EVERYTHING
12:30<TrueBrain>native build machine, native test machine, normal GCC, normal cross-compile options, ...
12:30<TrueBrain>it does amaze me that mac users dare to speak for other mac users :)
12:30<planetmaker>uhm... TrueBrain "normal gcc"?
12:31<TrueBrain>planetmaker: OSX has more patches to make gcc compile for the OSX target, then any other :)
12:31<TrueBrain>which is mostly due their problems with how GCC maintainers handler their patches, but okay ;)
12:31<planetmaker>but that doesn't stop you using it normally...
12:31<[wito]>But a native build machine would alleviate at least a few of these problems, yeah?
12:31<TrueBrain>planetmaker: because of the many patches, their gcc is hard to get in a cross-compile situation :)
12:32<TrueBrain>[wito]: it would; just we don't 'outsource' such building machine
12:32<planetmaker>he... ok, never tried that, I have to admit.
12:32<[wito]>Right, makes sense
12:32<TrueBrain>planetmaker: it is all Rubidium and I do for OSX :P
12:32<[wito]>But one could potentially smack a Mac Mini into the build farm and put it to work, yeah?
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12:33<planetmaker>wito: potentially, probably yes. But $$$
12:33<[wito]>Assuming one had €400 lying around -_-
12:33<TrueBrain>and I don't go and put a Mac Mini in a data center :p
12:33<planetmaker>TrueBrain, why not? That's actually not a bad choice and it's done.
12:33<TrueBrain>euh .. my DC sees me coming :p
12:34<[wito]>Why not put up a donation drive and let the people decide?
12:35<TrueBrain>mostly? Because it is insane for one target (which only takes a small %) to go through all that trouble
12:35<[wito]>Which is the beauty of a drive
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12:36<[wito]>either there are €400 (or however much an appropriately specced Mini would cost in your currency) worth of users that want it bad enough, or there isn't
12:36<+glx>if at least it was possible to run it in a VM
12:36<TrueBrain>again: I can't put a mini in a DC
12:36<[wito]>Why not?
12:36<TrueBrain>we talk about, including additional costs, 2000 euro
12:36<TrueBrain>LOL! Make some people laugh, pick up your mini and walk up to a DC, and ask if they want to host it :p
12:37<planetmaker>TrueBrain, there are datacentres which explicitly offer that.
12:37<[wito]>TrueBrain: Heh, here in Oslo there are at *least* two data centers that offer that
12:37<[wito]>probably more
12:37<planetmaker>It's not as ridiculous as you make it sound now
12:37<TrueBrain>planetmaker: not DCs I want to deal with :)
12:37<frosch123>you lost the test machine in your discussion
12:37<TrueBrain>planetmaker: it is :) From so many points of view :)
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12:37<planetmaker>not at all.
12:37<[wito]>as special low-budget options, no les
12:37<planetmaker>or you need an xserve and a server license. But that's way more €€€
12:38<TrueBrain>planetmaker: as I said: 2000 ;)
12:38<[wito]>TrueBrain: .de, right?
12:39<[wito]>Ok, well
12:39<[wito]>I thought I'd suggest it, at least. :P
12:39<TrueBrain>planetmaker: about having any non-19" in a DC: that always means they have poor ventilation (as you can't ventilate non-19" correctly)
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12:40<TrueBrain>to continue they are much less 'fire'proof then 19" would be
12:40<TrueBrain>and I can think up a few more points :)
12:40<TrueBrain>all 'normal' DCs in the netherlands refuse non-19" nowedays :)
12:40<TrueBrain>even more the ones which are env-friendly :)
12:41<planetmaker>TrueBrain, I'm pretty sure those which host mac mine have an appropriate solution for that
12:41<planetmaker>they even offer it themselves to supply them.
12:41<TrueBrain>planetmaker: that would be a big suprise to me :)
12:41<TrueBrain>it sucks to put such machines in 19" racks
12:42<planetmaker>As said: I don't know how they do it, but surely they do.
12:42<TrueBrain>but I would love to see pics of such machines in a DC :)
12:43<TrueBrain>planetmaker: which DC would offer that, btw?
12:44<planetmaker>I didn't bookmark it. I was searching for apple server hosting :-)
12:44<TrueBrain>as I really can't believe any sane DC would :)
12:44<planetmaker>I think it's some US company
12:45<TrueBrain>That is insane :)
12:45<+glx> even worse :)
12:45<TrueBrain>but okay, planetmaker, you are right, it is possible :)
12:45<TrueBrain>still rediculous idea :)
12:46<TrueBrain>glx: the last is a very simple DC I will never want to deal with :)
12:48<TrueBrain>[wito]: btw, I appreciate your suggestion, and I am sorry if I sound harsh; on a regular base I get about 2 or 3 of such 'suggestions' a month in my mailbox, one even worse then the other :p OpenTTD grow from simple connected user-based 'servers' to paid full dedicated servers. I would hate to go back to 'houtje touwtje knoopwerk' .. I fail to translate that :)
12:50<TrueBrain>but talking about real solutions, planetmaker found a nice site which only requires a OSX license to get hosting
12:50-!-jojor [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
12:50<TrueBrain>but we all know how expensive OSX licenses are :(
12:51<planetmaker>500$US... or 450€
12:51<planetmaker>as it needs a server license...
12:51<TrueBrain>I couldn't find if that was one-time or yearly
12:51<planetmaker>one-time afaik
12:51<TrueBrain>(their website is not one of the best when you want to get information :p)
12:51<[wito]>insofar as I can remember, anyway
12:52<planetmaker>after all they sell you that server license then with an unlimited client license :-)
12:52<[wito]>It's only good for one version, tho', and upgrading costs a bit; but 10.6 Server is probably going to be stable for quite a while
12:52<TrueBrain>I wonder if 10.6 is the version for us to use
12:52<TrueBrain>we need to keep able to produce 10.4 PPC
12:52<@Rubidium>don't forget that it costs 500 US$ per year to get 'early' access to their new SDKs and such
12:53<[wito]>Rubidium: Yeah, but does OpenTTD need that?
12:53<@Rubidium>without going into stealing it
12:53<planetmaker>Rubidium, well, but a one-time license would suffice.
12:53<@Rubidium>planetmaker: uhm, that doesn't get us 10.7 API *before* it gets released
12:53<planetmaker>the early-access is something not really needed, I think
12:53<@Rubidium>so we cannot do ANY testing of it *before* it gets released
12:53<planetmaker>Rubidium, yes. Which I agree, is a pain. But not absolutely necessary
12:54<TrueBrain>Rubidium: at release, can we upgrade? :P
12:54<planetmaker>TrueBrain, most probable.
12:54<planetmaker>but not for free :-P
12:54<@Rubidium>and based on previous experience about how much gets broken on OSX upgrades, you'll need a few weeks to work out the kinks
12:54<TrueBrain>planetmaker: exactly :)
12:54<planetmaker>we'll see.
12:54<[wito]>also, stuff built for 10.n tends to stay relatively compatible wiht 10.n+1
12:54<@Rubidium>and be able to test whether your hacks to make it work for the newer version don't break on the older version
12:54<TrueBrain>so in the end OSX will cost most of the money OpenTTD spends
12:54<planetmaker>I'll get 10.6 quite soon. So I'll test it there :-)
12:55<planetmaker>[wito], that's relative.
12:55<+glx>[18:54:37] <[wito]> also, stuff built for 10.n tends to stay relatively compatible wiht 10.n+1 <-- not true
12:55<planetmaker>As compatible as win95 is to win7
12:55<planetmaker>same as 10.3 to 10.6
12:55<@Rubidium>well, 10.4->10.5 was already a hell
12:55<TrueBrain>try creating a 10.2 binary :p
12:56<@Rubidium>especially Apple's idea of making 8bpp randomly work or work not at 10.5, whereas it reliably worked on 10.6.
12:56<[wito]>you can build a binary that works from 10.3.9 to 10.5 (probably 10.6)
12:56<@Rubidium>it took like 3 OpenTTD releases before it all worked fine again
12:56<@Rubidium>thanks TrueBrain :)
12:56<TrueBrain>you are very welcome :)
12:56<@Rubidium>and 3 OpenTTD releases equals roughly half a year
12:56<TrueBrain>[wito]: you have NO idea how much time and effort it took to get OpenTTD there
12:57<TrueBrain>so be careful what you state and suggest ;)
12:57<@Rubidium>whereas we haven't had such problems with either Vista or Windows 7 as far as I know
12:57<[wito]>well, once you add cross-compiling on a non-native machine into the mix, it gets hairy, this I see.
12:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: well, there was one problem, of slow GDI ;)
12:57<+glx>especially as we don't have an active dev with OSX
12:57<[wito]>But again, I'm thinking a native build machine would solve some of these issues
12:57<TrueBrain>[wito]: that part has NOTHING to do with cross-compiling
12:57<planetmaker>glx, that's the main obstacle, I think
12:57<@Rubidium>not to mention the fracking hoops OpenTTD is jumping through get 10.3 and 10.5 supported in the same build
12:57<TrueBrain>again, be careful what you suggest
12:57<planetmaker>it'd sort out way easier, if a person natively would / could deal with issues.
12:58<TrueBrain>planetmaker: absolutely right :)
12:58<@Rubidium>10.4->10.5 was even before releases were cross-compiled, so the cross compiler had nothing to do with it
12:58<TrueBrain>I already asked my boss for a mac :p
12:59<@Rubidium>but then, if you're a OSX fanboy you don't care about the hoops people have to jump through to support more than 2 versions at a time
13:00<TrueBrain>"de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" <- someone care to translate? :p
13:01<[wito]>"the best place for stuurlui in the world"?
13:01<[wito]>whatever a stuurlui is
13:01<@Rubidium>and anyone who says that OSX only needs 1 binary and there are 3 Windows binaries should be shot; for OSX all 3 binaries are put in a single package so they can just point-and-drool
13:02<TrueBrain>it comes down to: those who never did it always know better how it should be done
13:02-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
13:02<[wito]>TrueBrain: You're right, I never did write a huge cross-platform project in C++ and tried compiling it for OS X as well
13:02<[wito]>I'll freely admit to this.
13:02<@Rubidium>17. De beste stuurlui staan aan wal
13:02<@Rubidium>>The best steersmen are ashore<
13:02<@Rubidium>(i.e. Outsiders always think they know better)
13:02<+glx>Rubidium: remember your ultimate OSX build including 5 targets :)
13:03<TrueBrain>[wito]: so accept it if we tell you it is FAR from easy
13:03<planetmaker>glx, isn't it now already 5 or so?
13:03<@Rubidium>glx: no, because 64 bits builds are slower, at least on PPC
13:03<[wito]>I'm sorry if it seemed as if I was asking "Dudes, why don't you do this totally easy shit!?"
13:03<@Rubidium>according to our OSX developer
13:03<[wito]>I didn't mean to make light of your hard work.
13:04<[wito]>I was just dismayed at the thought of a large and perhaps significant open source project dropping OS X support.
13:04<TrueBrain>[18:54] <[wito]> also, stuff built for 10.n tends to stay relatively compatible wiht 10.n+1 <- so please refrain yourself from making such comments
13:04<+glx>isn't he the dev saying a codechange should make something faster without testing it ?
13:04<planetmaker>[wito], not yet :-)
13:04<[wito]>TrueBrain: I'm sorry, that should have been qualified with "In my experience when working with compiling less hairy projects; [...]"
13:04<planetmaker>If you own one: you're very welcome to look at the open bugs and try yourself on one of them
13:04<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: it holds, where n = /i/
13:04<TrueBrain>appoligy accepted
13:05<planetmaker>it will surely be looked upon with honest consideration and appreciation
13:05<TrueBrain>planetmaker: very true :)
13:05<planetmaker>I know.
13:05<@Rubidium>glx: could be, but there are so many OSX developers that it's hard to keep track of them
13:05<planetmaker>And I know that I kinda failed half-way on the font selection...
13:05<[wito]>Well, my C++ is a bit rusty (on account of my hating the language), but I could have a look at some of the bugs
13:05<+glx>planetmaker: weren't you working on auto select font on OSX ?
13:06<planetmaker>glx, yes... but it's hard :-)
13:06<planetmaker>It's probably not easy. And it's also not easy to get to know all that OS-X APIs...
13:06<TrueBrain>[wito]: I think you need a bit more than rusty C++ knowledge to catch those bugs .. or rather .. ObjC knowledge :p
13:06<[wito]>ObjC, now *that* I can do
13:06<planetmaker>and then add my lack of C/C++ in-depth experience...
13:07<+glx>even more when the API changes for each new release
13:07<TrueBrain>if you would know OSX a bit, you would know OSX runs on ObjC ..
13:07<TrueBrain>all their APIs are ObjC :(
13:07<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: more like ObjC++
13:07<TrueBrain>Rubidium: fair enough
13:07<planetmaker>it's not forgotten. But I got quite a bit frustrated with the segmentation faults I constantly got.
13:07<planetmaker>And the lack of success despite spending hours on it :-)
13:07<TrueBrain>welcome to our world :)
13:07<planetmaker>:-) I know.
13:07<[wito]>TrueBrain: I went right ahead and assumed that the problems were in the glue code; but if it's in the actual ObjC parts, I could take a good solid whack at that
13:07<@Rubidium>... of trying to get OSX to run on non-Apples
13:07<TrueBrain>[wito]: good luck!
13:08<+glx>[wito]: if you are interressed feel free to check :)
13:09<[wito]>I could take a look at
13:09<[wito]>I'll have a look at it over the next week and see if I can hammer something out.
13:10<TrueBrain>[wito]: good luck!
13:10<[wito]>Thank you, I'll need it ^_^
13:12<TrueBrain>if only virtualbox would be able to run OSX, we would be done :(
13:12<TrueBrain>another sad day of useless attempts
13:15<@Rubidium>a black cat went past us and then another that looked just like it :)
13:15<+glx>on the walls
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13:15<TrueBrain>pfew ... for a moment I thought we lost Windows too
13:17<OwenS>Rubidium: You're making me want to hug Bliss :P
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13:19<@Rubidium>tss... where is OFTC when you need it? I wanted to be ping timeout kicked :(
13:19<TrueBrain>poor Rubidium
13:22*planetmaker gives Rubidium 480 seconds of patience
13:22<TrueBrain>I love my subwoofer
13:23<planetmaker>I know, it's not a lot :-P
13:23<TrueBrain>it started to rain outside! :) How jolly good!!
13:23<blathijs>TrueBrain: Is there any fundamental problem of running OSX in virtualbox?
13:23<@Rubidium>says TrueBrain just before mentioning he needs to do groceries for his dinner tonight
13:23<planetmaker>hm... then, I guess, tomorrow will be bad here, too. Too bad... Paintball & rain don't work well together...
13:24<TrueBrain>blathijs: for my local it is simple: it doesn't detect the CDRom when the kernel is loaded
13:24<TrueBrain>which is vbox not allowing you to control the controller or what ever of the CDRom
13:24<@Rubidium>blathijs: depends on what fundamental is, but there is at least an inability to install OSX
13:24<TrueBrain>planetmaker: hmm .. paintball :)
13:24-!-tosse [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:25<TrueBrain>blathijs: remotely, on 10.5 kernels, the window stays black. Most likely the video driver, but again here virtualbox refusing to use some simple custom hardware emulation
13:25<planetmaker>yeah. Competition of our institute vs. the theoretical people :-P
13:25<TrueBrain>(or my inability to find it :p)
13:25<blathijs>Rubidium: I was thinking about something fundamental as OSX won't install on virtual hardware since it needs some kind of TPM device or something :-)
13:25<TrueBrain>blathijs: the TPM is _very_ easy bypassed :)
13:25<TrueBrain>an initrd like system (boot-132) inserts a ... different version of the package doing that validation :)
13:26<@Rubidium>blathijs: you can always hack around and checks the OS does in a virtual environment
13:26<TrueBrain>planetmaker: can I join? :)
13:26<TrueBrain>Qemu even has emulation for TPM :p
13:27<planetmaker>TrueBrain, sure. Tomorrow 18:30 local time
13:27<TrueBrain>ghehe :)
13:28<@Rubidium>enough time for DB to bring you there
13:28-!-KingJ [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
13:28<planetmaker>sure, yes
13:28<planetmaker>if you're quick, you might even cycle and succeed. But that would need quite a bit of endurance :-)
13:28<blathijs>Rubidium: Not always, if it does some cryptographic challenge, you can only fix that by modifying the OS code
13:29<@Rubidium>IC to Utrecht, ICE to Germany, some other IC[E]s and then maybe a local train
13:29<@Rubidium>blathijs: that can be done fairly easily too
13:29<planetmaker>no local train needed. We have ICE stops
13:29<TrueBrain>blathijs: as I said: you can inject code inside the OS itself :)
13:29<planetmaker>I can go to Amsterdam with switching once.
13:29<TrueBrain>so not even direct modifying :)
13:29<planetmaker>in Hanover
13:30<@Rubidium>hmm, that'd be the IC via Bad Bentheim
13:30<@Rubidium>that one's slow :)
13:30<planetmaker>yeah, I guess it is.
13:30<@Rubidium>though I'd be able to wave to TB when he passes Hengelo
13:30<@Rubidium>wouldn't take me much effort to get there
13:31<TrueBrain>you do understand you will come with in such cases?
13:31<TrueBrain>like blathijs
13:31<blathijs>Uh, what?
13:31<TrueBrain>tomorrow we are going to beat planetmaker in a game of paintball
13:31<TrueBrain>he just invited us :p
13:31-!-lewymati [] has joined #openttd
13:31<@Rubidium>he pays the tickets?
13:31<TrueBrain>his department, I assume, yes
13:32<TrueBrain>I can travel for free inside this country, so he only has to pay for the ICE :p
13:32<planetmaker>Accomodation is something I could provide to you.
13:32-!-Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: schützenfest \o/]
13:32<planetmaker>Ticket is 35€
13:32<TrueBrain>oh, affordable
13:33<blathijs>TrueBrain: I need to be in Utrecht at 19.30, would that work?
13:33<TrueBrain>the game is at 18:30
13:33<planetmaker>I surely could also accomodate all three of you. One will need to take an insulation matrase though
13:34<TrueBrain>we should do that for r20000
13:34<TrueBrain>OpenTTD Funds pays for the tickets, right orudge? :p :p :p
13:34<planetmaker>haha :-)
13:34<@Rubidium>hmm, 35 EUR?
13:34<planetmaker>I would love that! :-)
13:34<@Rubidium>DB says it's quite a bit more (53)
13:35<@Rubidium>oh, I only need to change once if I go via dortmund
13:36<planetmaker>Rubidium, I was talking of the paintball ticket...
13:36<planetmaker>not train :-)
13:36<TrueBrain>oh ....
13:36<TrueBrain>then it starts to become very expensive :p
13:36<@Rubidium>oh, so 150 euros... that's a bit expensive
13:36<planetmaker>but if you're 3 people, a car will be cheaper, I guess
13:36<TrueBrain>88 euro in total ...
13:36<TrueBrain>Rubidium: 150? 53 + 35 ?
13:37<_ln>2*53 + 35?
13:37<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: 53 is single
13:37<TrueBrain>planetmaker: even if we hav eto rent that car?
13:37<@Rubidium>and you need two, cause you can't get back on the same day
13:37<TrueBrain>Rubidium: sucks
13:37<planetmaker>TrueBrain, I would bet. I rented a car for 70€ incl. 900km for the last weekend.
13:37<planetmaker>plus fuel, of course. But even then.
13:37<TrueBrain>so a car it is :p
13:37<_ln>dutch fuel is expensive
13:37<TrueBrain>planetmaker's place
13:38-!-KingJ [] has joined #openttd
13:38<planetmaker>give me a guestimate for the time and I'll see that we can have a nice party :-)
13:38<_ln>don't forget the cake
13:38<TrueBrain>where is Bart ...
13:39<@Rubidium>just one day, say from: 00:01-11 till 23:59+14 :)
13:39<planetmaker>in the moring? ;-) for r20.000. You've quite a bit of work, I say :-)
13:39<TrueBrain>you didn't ask for the date
13:39<planetmaker>time includes date :-P
13:39<TrueBrain>no :)
13:39<TrueBrain>datetime does
13:40<planetmaker>of course. time is given in JD :-)
13:41<planetmaker>well, 8pm is fine :-) 8am is when I can offer you breakfast :-P
13:44<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it's very easy to get to 20000 revisions
13:44<planetmaker>Rubidium, I know :-)
13:44<planetmaker>But will you do that?
13:44-!-keoz [] has joined #openttd
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Rubidium * r20000 /: -Feature: party at planetmaker!
13:45<planetmaker>Do that and you contributors are all invited to a party at my place in the weekend :-)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r17274 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt english_US.txt latvian.txt serbian.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by SmatZ
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 4 changes by agenthh
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 54 changes by dzhins
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: serbian - 110 changes by etran
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:45<planetmaker>haha :-)
13:47<@Rubidium>it really doesn't take a noticable effort to get to r20000
13:47-!-FR^2 [] has joined #openttd
13:47<@Rubidium>just a script that does something simple (or commits nothing)
13:47<planetmaker>sure, I know :-)
13:47-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
13:48<planetmaker>Is having that party early worth 2500 empty commits to you - that's the real question :-)
13:48<@Rubidium>no, but technically with 975 less we'd be there too
13:49<planetmaker>that's when the initial repo got lost?
13:49<@Rubidium>that's what my history book said
13:49<planetmaker>hm... what's the commit count per day?
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13:50<@Rubidium>@calc 24.0/2.7
13:50<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 8.88888888889
13:50<@Rubidium>so about 9 commits a day
13:51<OwenS>I imagine slightly more as commits seem to be getting more regular :p
13:51<planetmaker>@calc 2736 / (24.0/2.7)
13:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 307.8
13:51<planetmaker>hm... nearly a year...
13:51-!-OwenS [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:51-!-OwenS [] has joined #openttd
13:51<planetmaker>so... May / June next year that is.
13:51-!-green-devil [] has quit []
13:51<@Rubidium>310 last month, 260 this month
13:51<@Rubidium>would imply ~10 a day recently
13:52<planetmaker>so it might even be April. All a nice time for a party.
13:53<frosch123>so r20000 will be release 0.8.0
13:54<planetmaker>frosch123, that'll need careful timing then.
13:54<planetmaker>but might be worth the hassle :-P
13:55<TrueBrain>we did more crazy things :p
13:55<planetmaker>:-) That's the spice!
13:57<TrueBrain>now I need to think how to store some nasty piece of information ...
13:58<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: like what?
13:58<frosch123>try with a piece of paper
13:58<TrueBrain>my paid job work stuff thingy
13:58*Rubidium is off making himself some dinner
13:59<TrueBrain>but CF starts in a moment with vbox 3.0.4! :P
14:00<TrueBrain>lets see if I fucked up ;)
14:00*glx will try
14:00<TrueBrain>glx: I even have a preinstall for vmware .. but fails badly on virtualbox :(
14:01<TrueBrain>but please try :) Although you might have more recent documentation on
14:01<+glx>anyway I'm at step 3 :)
14:02<TrueBrain>oeh, vbox 3.0.4 runs nicely
14:04<TrueBrain>lol, obtain LEGAL OSX, and then they talk about the JaS edition
14:04<TrueBrain>for sure that is NOT a legal version, as it hacks away a few restrictions :p
14:06<TrueBrain>hmm .. by the looks both debian and macosx are not compiling ...
14:06<+glx>yeah 10.4.8 Jas :)
14:06<+glx>not easy to find torrents when the major database is unreachable
14:07-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:08<+glx>are you sure vbox runs nicely?
14:08<TrueBrain>[20:06] <TrueBrain> hmm .. by the looks both debian and macosx are not compiling ...
14:08<+glx>shared drive failure maybe
14:09<TrueBrain>one debian VM runs, the other does not
14:09<TrueBrain>Debians and OSX are the only ones which failed
14:09<_ln>let's drop debian
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14:14<TrueBrain>2 nearly identical VMs, both Debian, same settings
14:14<TrueBrain>one boots, the other hangs :p
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14:37<insulfrog>ooo, i like the east anglia scenario :)
14:41<planetmaker>is bannas currently reachable or is it me?
14:41<TrueBrain>I hope you mean: not reachable, else it is a VERY strange question :)
14:42<planetmaker>:-P yes.
14:42<planetmaker>and yes
14:42<TrueBrain>hmm .. I lost network connectivity 12 minutes ago :s
14:42<planetmaker>I get ingame a blank dialogue
14:42<insulfrog>bananas is fine for me
14:42<planetmaker>with nothing displayed to download or update.
14:43<TrueBrain>I wonder what insulfrog accesses
14:43<TrueBrain>as there hasn't been any server traffic for the last 12 minutes
14:43<TrueBrain>it always amazes me what people consider 'fine' ;)
14:43<insulfrog>i have just downloaded some needed GRF for the east anglia scenario
14:43<TrueBrain>'just' being 12+ minutes ago?
14:44<OwenS>Well, that marks the first time I've read my mail right out of the Postfix mail spool
14:44<insulfrog>no, in the last 5 mins...ah, its just gone offline
14:44<TrueBrain>it for sure is possible you have connectivity, but I want to make sure you are not talking about past knowledge ;)
14:44<OwenS>It does have two disadvantages: Filtering is next to impossible, and one has to manually decode any quoted-printable or Base64 :p
14:45<OwenS>(My mail is currently queuing up on my backup MX because my mailserver is inaccessible due to lack of router...)
14:45<TrueBrain>214 days uptime ..
14:45<TrueBrain>hmm ..
14:45<TrueBrain>this would be sad!
14:46<TrueBrain>DorpsGek didn't timeout yet :p
14:47<insulfrog>i have dowloaded the newgrf in the last 10 mins but it looks like bananas has been down for the last 5 mins
14:47<TrueBrain>I have 4 screens telling me it went down at 18:30:16 :p
14:47<TrueBrain>(give or take 3 seconds intervals)
14:47<insulfrog>that is odd
14:48<TrueBrain>it is odd in so many ways
14:49<TrueBrain>ping6 is the worst nettool ever
14:50<PeterT> is down too
14:50<TrueBrain>and you expectd that to be up .. why? :p
14:51<insulfrog>bananas has just come back online for me now
14:51<SpComb>you broke it!
14:51<TrueBrain>a power-cycle tend to do that ;)
14:54-!-mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ
14:55<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: I don't recognize you.
14:57<TrueBrain>15 minutes downtime, and people HAMMER the wiki page .. :s
14:58<PeterT>what wiki page?
14:58<_ln>PeterT: put down that hammer
15:00<TrueBrain>as far as I can tell, all services are up and running
15:00<TrueBrain>let me know if I missed one
15:03<@Belugas>coffee service is down
15:03<@Belugas>like... big time
15:04<OwenS>So he missed the HTCP server? :p
15:05<TrueBrain>restarted the nightly
15:05<TrueBrain>failures!! :)
15:05<TrueBrain>cool :)
15:06<OwenS>Belugas: Or is it currently returning a 418 error?
15:07<OwenS>(418 I'm a teapot)
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15:09<TrueBrain>okay, attempt 3 ... it seems to run correctly now :p
15:13<planetmaker>let's eat bandwidth and get a few heightmaps :-)
15:13<TrueBrain>we have plenty, so go ahead :p
15:14<planetmaker>I don't though :-P
15:19<_ln>do you have any sheep?
15:22<_ln>an animal, four feet, says "baaaaah"
15:22<insulfrog>why do you want sheep?
15:23<_ln>i don't, but there were huge amounts of sheep in the netherlands... so i figured some of them need to belong to someone here as this is such a dutch-rich channel.
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16:12<_ln>quite a conversation killer
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16:15<frosch123>how's your elk?
16:16<TrueBrain>Today we are going to talk about a larch
16:16*TrueBrain shows an image of one
16:17<KenjiE20>"A Larch"
16:17<@Belugas>Noah's one?
16:17<@Belugas>"You rang??"
16:17<frosch123>isn't that the noobish needle beam?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>noah's lurch?
16:17<Prof_Frink>Noah's lunch?
16:17<Prof_Frink>Did Joan pack it for him?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, he probably had two of them :p
16:18<frosch123>yeah, noah had lots of Pair<bla> templates
16:19*KenjiE20 wonders, am I the only one who got that reference?
16:20<frosch123>likely, no idea about larchs
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16:27<Ammler>ups, good night was that :-)
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16:33<andythenorth>mmm, jquery
16:33<@Belugas>jquery, tquery, iquery, nquery, vquery, ilsquery...
16:34<andythenorth>Belugas: I think we may be talking about something different :) At least, I have no idea what you mean.
16:35<andythenorth>I should probably be doing something important, like drawing boats, but I'm learning javascript for fun
16:35<andythenorth>^ javascript and fun - usually an oxymoron
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16:36<frosch123>learn script-fu instead
16:36<+glx>javascript and IE6 is fun :)
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16:37<@Belugas>"Je query, tu query, il querys, nous querissons, vous queryssez, ils queryssent"
16:38<@Rubidium>sounds french-ish
16:38<@Belugas>pretty much so indeed :)
16:38<@Belugas>sounds... not frenchish
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i thought it's "yo quiero"
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16:50<@Belugas>hhahahahah... so simple! if a feature is not liked by some users, but wanted by some others, just put it in cheat
16:50<@Rubidium>hmm, is "code it yourself" a cheat too?
16:51<@Belugas>of course, even more if it requires creating a "savegame editor"
16:54<frosch123>покойной ночи
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17:00<@Belugas>leave.. i shall leave
17:00<@Belugas>home... here i come!
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17:15<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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17:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r17275 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remember group ID we are renaming, don't rename currently selected group
17:54<Nite_Owl>that needs a bit of explaining
17:54<SmatZ>nothing important :)
17:54<SmatZ>just the "Rename group" window remembers which group to rename\
17:55<SmatZ>and doesn't rename currently selected group
17:56<Nite_Owl>choose group - click renaming icon - does NOT rename that group ??
17:56<SmatZ>it does
17:56<SmatZ>choose group - click renaming icon - choose other group
17:56<SmatZ>or - delete selected group
17:57<SmatZ>this behaviour is changed in r17275
17:57<SmatZ>now, the first selected group is renamed
17:57<SmatZ>and query is closed when group is deleted
17:58<Nite_Owl>click renaming icon - choose group to rename - rename group
17:58<SmatZ>you won't notice a change this way
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18:00<Nite_Owl>a few uses and it will become clearer
18:00<SmatZ>choose group - click renaming icon - choose other group
18:01<SmatZ>r17274: newly selected group is renamed
18:01<SmatZ>r17275: orignally selected group is renamed
18:01<SmatZ>you have to select other group before you close the query
18:03<Nite_Owl>the renaming dialog stays open while you have the option to select another group for renaming
18:03<SmatZ>yeah :)
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18:19<Chris_Booth>evening all
18:20<SmatZ>hello Chris_Booth
18:20<Nite_Owl>Hello Chris_Booth
18:20<Chris_Booth>i never talk in this channel just read
18:20<SmatZ>neither do I
18:20<SmatZ>I sometimes type though
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18:22<Chris_Booth>i never quite know what to say
18:23<SmatZ>neither do I
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18:32<OwenS>Hmm... I have a problem... If you do fn(new X());, and the call to fn causes a collection while allocating it's stack frame, then the X will get collected because it's not been pinned yet...
18:33<SmatZ>really? in squirrel?
18:33<SmatZ>looks like design failure
18:33<OwenS>In my language :p
18:33<SmatZ>looks like design failure
18:34<OwenS>The way arround this is to of course allocate frames in the caller rather than callee and lower the args that way... but thats ugly :p
18:35<OwenS>Plus it means the caller needs to know the callees frame size... which isn't always possible...
18:38<Yexo>maybe a middle way can work? Allocate enough space for the arguments in the caller, then extend the needed space for local variables in the callee
18:39<OwenS>That means my GC has to deal with relocating a partially allocated object...
18:39<OwenS>I suppose as long as I maintain object ordering within the heap it's doable though
18:40<OwenS>I think I'm going to allocate arguments into their own frame... it's simpler :p
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19:08<SmatZ>hello z-MaTRiX
19:09<z-MaTRiX>hows life?
19:09<SmatZ>not bad :)
19:09<SmatZ>how are you?
19:10<z-MaTRiX>flooded with problems to be solved
19:12<z-MaTRiX>it it cool to copy linux / to tmpfs, and run from there?
19:13<SmatZ>it is cool
19:13<SmatZ>but I am not sure if useful
19:13<z-MaTRiX>was thinking about it would speed up loading programs
19:13<SmatZ>data from disk should be cached if you have big enough RAM
19:14<z-MaTRiX>how about 8GB ?
19:14<OwenS>Yeah, it just means your programs end up backed by swap rather than their HD image. Increases HD wear. Actually not cool :p
19:14<SmatZ>there is some FSCACHE feature in recent kernels...
19:14<SmatZ>recent = 2.6.30 I think :)
19:14<OwenS>I imagine you'd find it no faster than just running from disk if you take the time to copy everything to RAM into consideration
19:14<SmatZ>never tried it, I don't know at what level it works
19:14*SmatZ thinks the same as OwenS
19:15<OwenS>Better idea = Get a decent SSD :P
19:15<SmatZ>certainly faster would be something like "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/ram0" or so
19:15<SmatZ>and then mounting your ramdisk
19:15<SmatZ>eg. copying whole disk instead of data
19:16<z-MaTRiX>nice to hear many aspects
19:16<SmatZ>(sequential access X seeking file-by-file)
19:16<OwenS>Yes but then Linux fscache runs on top of the ramdisk, so everything gets duplicated...
19:16<SmatZ>OwenS: you can't disable the cache?
19:16<OwenS>Not without taking initramfs with it
19:17<OwenS>And Linux needs it anyway to support things like mmap
19:17<SmatZ>what do you need initramfs after booting for?
19:17<OwenS>You don't. But at that point it's enabled. You may be able to dial back it's memory allocation to 0... but it will still be there
19:17<OwenS>And, as I said, mmap will need it
19:18<SmatZ>anyway, I meant "don't use cache for this mount"
19:19<SmatZ>mmap != cache
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19:21<OwenS>mmap gets it's pages from the fs cache
19:22<SmatZ>we are talking about a bit different things I am afraid
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19:27<SmatZ>@calc 100/9.58
19:27<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 10.4384133612
19:27<SmatZ>@calc 100/9.58*3.6
19:27<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 37.5782881002
19:28<SmatZ>@calc 200/19.19*3.6
19:28<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 37.5195414278
19:28<SmatZ>@calc 140/14.35*3.6
19:28<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 35.1219512195
19:29<SmatZ>@calc 150/14.35*3.6
19:29<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 37.6306620209
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19:32<z-MaTRiX>only one little problem with SSDs, limited rewrite cycles
19:32-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
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19:33<z-MaTRiX>anyway, nice thing
19:34-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:35<z-MaTRiX>SmatZ<< good tip, looking forward meeting new linux kernel
19:36<z-MaTRiX>anyway, there is btrfs to check out
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19:44<OwenS>z-MaTRiX: Hard disks run out too
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21:09<PeterT>what would be the cause of a binary (after being patched and compiled) having the openttd version "r"?
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21:25<R0b0t1>r? Just r?
21:25<R0b0t1>Not r12432 or w/e?
21:30<PeterT>just r RObOtl
21:32<PeterT>just "r"
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 25 00:00:26 2009