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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-08-29

---Logopened Sat Aug 29 00:00:33 2009
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02:52<Terkhen>good morning
03:00<Alberth>good morning
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03:50<_ln>did it drop yet?
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05:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17304 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Codechange: move (more) drawing code out of the rail depot picker's OnPaint.
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05:44<planetmaker> Warning: mysql_pconnect() [function.mysql-pconnect]: Lost connection to MySQL server during query in /www/ on line 49
05:44<planetmaker>Unable to connect to database
05:47<@Rubidium>(and it's the only service I can't boot)
05:47<@Rubidium>and TB isn't here (AFAIK)
05:48<@Rubidium>though I blame spammers
05:50<Alberth>that is always a safe group to blame :p
05:51<planetmaker>nevertheless a good morning to you all :-)
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05:53<Alberth>that seems like a safe bet, not much can happen in those last 10 minutes :p
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05:59<planetmaker>hehe :-)
05:59<planetmaker>depends on your time reference, though, Alberth ;-)
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06:46<planetmaker>Can the sprites used by an industry be made time dependent?
06:47<planetmaker>Like, show sprite A for dates < 1920, sprite B for 1920 ... 2000 and sprite B for date > 2000 ?
06:47<planetmaker>possibly via callback?
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't it?
06:51<planetmaker>for one and the same industry?
06:51<planetmaker>not for two different ones
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06:52<planetmaker>I've never seen it.
06:52<planetmaker>Doesn't need to mean much, but...
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07:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r17305 /branches/0.7/src/ai/api/ (6 files):
07:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
07:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: [NoAI] AITown::GetLastMonthTransported didn't work as documented at all, make it return what AITown::GetLastMonthProduction did
07:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: [NoAI] AITown::GetLastMonthProduction now returns the same value as AITown::GetMaxProduction
07:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: [NoAI] AITown::GetLastMonthTransportedPercentage and AIIndustry::GetLastMonthTransportedPercentage
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07:44<Eddi|zuHause>man, it's totally cold here...
07:47<Alberth>Give your CPUs more work.
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: we had that topic already:
08:59*Alberth is not surprised
09:00*Alberth grabs some heat from the room, and sends it to Eddi|zuHause
09:00*SirSquid1ess yoinks some of the heat
09:00<Alberth>No fighting, there is enough for everybody
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09:04<SirSquidness>sweet. I could do with a bit.
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12:22<Aankhen``>Man, it would be nice to have a blueprints feature or something like that so that I could discover that my two billion tile station layout is one tile too far to the left before I start building it.
12:23<MyCatVerbs>Aankhen``: No.
12:23<MyCatVerbs>The whole point is that you do that, then you take a screenshot and post it here or on the wiki or something.
12:24<MyCatVerbs>Then everybody laughs at you and you cry a lot and we all enjoy the schadenfreude.
12:24<MyCatVerbs>But more seriously, just take a savegame before you embark on a big project like that?
12:24<SpComb>Aankhen``: adapt!
12:24<MyCatVerbs>The main issue is the amount of time it takes to build the layout in the editor, not the expenditure in game.
12:25<Aankhen``>SpComb: I am.
12:25<SpComb>you could write the templates/blueprints as a feature of some AI
12:25<SpComb>and then just let that AI play on your behalf
12:26<Aankhen``>MyCatVerbs: I really meant a general planning feature. So for instance, in this ideal world, I'd select a bunch of tiles and shift them one tile to the right, rather than rebuilding the entire thing.
12:26<MyCatVerbs>Aankhen``: ah, I see what you mean.
12:27<Aankhen``>SpComb: Yeah, great idea— no wait.
12:28<SpComb>need to bring a bit of tension and excitement into the game
12:29<Aankhen``>You get your kicks one way, I get them another…
12:31<SpComb>there's been plenty of controversy re copy-paste features
12:31<SpComb>many people are of the opinion that no such feature should exist
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12:31<Aankhen``>Welp, I don't want to add to any controversy. It was just an idle thought.
12:32<Aankhen``>Er, idle wish.
12:32<Aankhen``>Heya Entane.
12:32<Entane>Hey Aankhen``
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12:37<SmatZ>+ if (OSErr err = Gestalt(gestaltSystemVersion, &systemVersion) != noErr) {
12:37<SmatZ>interesting construct, OSErr is a bool?
12:37<planetmaker>no, it isn't.
12:37<planetmaker>at least I don't think
12:38<planetmaker>IIRC it's an uint or ulongint
12:38<planetmaker>as it reports the type of error
12:38<SmatZ>actually I wonder it's allowed to declare a variable inside if statement :)
12:38<planetmaker>it compiles and works :-P
12:39<planetmaker>I had it first outside, but then moved closest to its use :-)
12:39<SmatZ>it's missing braces
12:39<SmatZ>it's objc though...
12:39<SmatZ>so maybe I am mistaken
12:39<SmatZ>OSErr err = (Gestalt(gestaltSystemVersion, &systemVersion) != noErr)
12:39<SmatZ>this is the behaviour it would have in C
12:40<planetmaker>you mean braces like if ((OSErr err = Gestalt(gestaltSystemVersion, &systemVersion)) != noErr) {
12:40<planetmaker>honestly, I didn't look up the type of OSErr. I copied it from the example in the quoted link
12:41<planetmaker>but, of course, you're right... your last version of it looks more sane to me :-)
12:41<planetmaker>let's see...
12:42<SmatZ>I wonder what is the scope of 'err' in this case
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12:43<planetmaker>local. Not used elsewhere
12:43<SmatZ>why does it need to be used at all?
12:43<planetmaker>... it acutally doesn't :-)
12:43<SmatZ>just "if (Gestalt(gestaltSystemVersion, &systemVersion) != noErr)" wouldn't work?
12:43<SmatZ>hehe :)
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12:44<planetmaker>let's see what compile tells me
12:44<SmatZ>+ if ((err = Gestalt(gestaltSystemVersionMajor, &versionMajor)) != noErr) versionMajor = 0;
12:45<SmatZ>I suppose err isn't needed here too
12:45<SmatZ>(systemVersion & 0x000F); GB would be nicer :)
12:46<planetmaker>GB instead of the masking?
12:47<SmatZ>(systemVersion & 0xF000) >> 12) ==> GB(systemVersion, 12, 4)
12:47<SmatZ>hmm that file breaks coding style anyway...
12:48<SmatZ>so no comments from me about camelCase or comment style :-x
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12:51<planetmaker>my patch actually doesn't change too much there, just the version part - and it moves a few var declarations, mainly as I stumbled upon them...
12:51<SmatZ>yeah :)
12:51<planetmaker>I agree that it needs major cleanup.
12:52<planetmaker>also all those magic string lengths. They'd need unification and declaration in one place.
12:52<planetmaker>else, if you change one, you're easily getting seg faults
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12:52<planetmaker>been there, seen that :-P
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12:53<planetmaker>I didn't want to do a complete overhaul right now.
12:53<planetmaker>I rather do that piecewise :-)
12:53<SmatZ>thanks :)
12:56<SmatZ>planetmaker: what was broken in r8605?
12:56<SmatZ>I think your svn blame doesn't work correctly ;)
12:57<SmatZ>in r8605, the file was just moved
12:57<planetmaker>oh, hm... it was the change which last affected that line
12:57<planetmaker>talks about conversion away from objc to c++
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12:58<planetmaker>so... maybe even earlier from a functional POV
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13:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17306 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix: DrawStringMultiLine() computed available width and height wrongly.
13:01<planetmaker>SmatZ: updated patch uploaded
13:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17307 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_rail.cpp: -Fix [NoAI]: AIRail::RemoveRailTrack returned ERR_PRECONDITION_ERROR for road/rail-crossings
13:02<planetmaker>actually, I *think* the version is checked in other places, too.
13:02<planetmaker>So, a proper fix would be to move these version determination to separate functions...
13:03<planetmaker>but that'll need more time...
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13:24*AC6000 materializes at 30,000 ft. ...
13:32<planetmaker>within your own interest I hope that you either materialize within the pressurized compartement of a plane or with a propper jumpsuit and a working oxygen supply
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13:39<AC6000>wb :P
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r17308 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt german.txt indonesian.txt italian.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 28 changes by Roujin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 7 changes by fanioz
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 44 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 7 changes by MajestiC
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14:57<Grelouk>any admin of ex's city mania ?
14:58<PeterT>Grelouk: at his forum
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15:01<Grelouk>yeah, i could use one right now..
15:02<Grelouk>a guy is blocking me everywhere
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15:27<asilv>question: if the callback 2E custom cargo generation for houses is used, does the normal cargo generation for passengers/mail happen too or just the callback?
15:29<Yexo>just the callback
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16:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r17309 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix: not all non-ASCII characters were entered with escapes in the About window
16:06<planetmaker>hm... the version detection for macos can indeed be more unified.
16:06<planetmaker>let's see how it works
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16:08<SmatZ>planetmaker: about FS#3156, Gestalt sounds very germanish :) are you sure it's available in non-German OSX?
16:09<z-matrica>hey-ho :)
16:09<SmatZ>seems so, interesting :)
16:09<planetmaker>SmatZ: I'm pretty sure. It seems to be part of the official API
16:09<SmatZ>hello z-Matrix
16:09<SmatZ>planetmaker: nice :)
16:09<planetmaker>:-) But I agree that it sounds very German
16:10<z-matrica>someone know of error correction layer for hdd-s below raid/filesystem level for linux?
16:11-!-z-matrica is now known as z-MaTRiX
16:11<SmatZ>@seen Bjarni
16:11<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 22 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <Bjarni> as long as it doesn't happen every 5th minute
16:11<SmatZ>z-MaTRiX: every HDD has its own error-recovery system
16:12<SmatZ>data on disk are encoded with some ECC
16:12<z-MaTRiX>sure, but they are likely to go to badsector land
16:12<SmatZ>how do you mean?
16:12<z-MaTRiX>had some hdds that did it
16:13<SmatZ>bad blocks are listed in the filesystem (afaik)
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16:13<SmatZ>eg. you can add list of bad blocks to mkfs
16:13<SmatZ>*add -> pass
16:13<z-MaTRiX>well, you use a hdd, write data on it, then you cannot read back
16:13<z-MaTRiX>read error
16:13<z-MaTRiX>so you lose data
16:13<SmatZ>try some utility from HDD manufaturer
16:13<z-MaTRiX>no matter if it relocates it after
16:14<SmatZ>it should be relocated before it becomes unreadable
16:14<SmatZ> 5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 099 099 036 Pre-fail Always - 69
16:14<SmatZ>and no files are broken
16:14<z-MaTRiX>yes, that i think is not really possible
16:14<SmatZ>195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered 0x001a 024 024 000 Old_age Always - 89151901
16:15<SmatZ>that ECC can have code distance, say, 4
16:15<SmatZ>and if there are two or more fixed bits in given record, the sector may be reallocated
16:15<z-MaTRiX>how about, you have a sector you wrote 2 years ago, and never read out, goes bad, and it is never discovered?
16:15<SmatZ>that's bad
16:15<SmatZ>happens sometimes
16:15<SmatZ>but HDDs do some "offline" tests too
16:16<SmatZ>when they are unused
16:16<z-MaTRiX>sure, that's why was wondering to add 16% of error correction code in a transparent device layer
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16:16<SmatZ>who is adding "16% of error correction code" where?
16:16<z-MaTRiX>they can do offline tests only offline, not 24/7, and not without being powered
16:17<z-MaTRiX>id like to do it
16:17<SmatZ>well, maybe the HDD does tests even when it's being used
16:17<z-MaTRiX>on the hdd ofcourse
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16:17<SmatZ>after longer timeout
16:18<z-MaTRiX>c1&c2 works nice on a DVD disc for example
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16:19<SmatZ>sorry, I don't know what c1 and c2 is
16:20<SmatZ>but you get some c1 and c2 rates when reading the disc
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16:21<SmatZ>hmm yeah I was taught that...
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16:23<SmatZ>I guess it has something to do with re-encoding already encoded data
16:23<SmatZ>like, ECC on "byte" levevel and ECC on "sector" level
16:24<SmatZ>so C1 is when it can be corrected on the byte level
16:24<SmatZ>and C2 when it's corrected on the sector level
16:24<SmatZ>or absolutely wrong?
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16:26<z-MaTRiX>Cross Interleave Reed-Solomon Code is a method of error detection and correction employing Reed-Solomon parity bytes together with different interleaving, or delay, patterns that assists in error correction by distributing concentrated read errors over multiple frames that then form the input to a CIRC decoder. After the first deinterleave, CD discs correct small read errors at the C1 level, followed by a second deinterleave and correction of larg
16:26<z-MaTRiX>e read errors at the C2 level.
16:29<z-MaTRiX>[222728] SmatZ bah
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16:30<SmatZ>I was wondering you are so alive and full of ideas that late in the night :)
16:30<z-MaTRiX>btw has accurate ntp
16:31<Gold24>so does
16:31<SmatZ>29 Aug 22:31:06 ntpdate[29266]: step time server offset -2.028262 sec
16:31<Xaroth> will give a random anyhow :P
16:31<Gold24>where XX is country code
16:31<Gold24>yes it will
16:32<Xaroth>and country code is irrelevant, if i connect to our datacenter 40km from here the connection will actually cross 7 borders.
16:32<SmatZ>I have local ntpserver running though
16:32<SmatZ>29 Aug 22:32:20 ntpdate[29283]: adjust time server offset -0.000625 sec
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16:47<planetmaker>why would I make a function static inline?
16:48<SmatZ>so it is inlined
16:48<SmatZ>faster code execution
16:51<MyCatVerbs>SmatZ: please no.
16:51<MyCatVerbs>If you make static functions then the compiler will pick whether or not to inline them for you. Modern compilers will usually do a better job of making this decision than you owuld've.
16:52<MyCatVerbs>Yes. I can demonstrate gcc doing it if you like.
16:52-!-Mks [] has quit []
16:52<SmatZ>gcc isn't modern then
16:52<MyCatVerbs>That's an interesting position to take.
16:53*planetmaker wonders whether GetMacOSVersion is time critical, though
16:53<planetmaker>rather GetMacOSVersionAtLeast
16:53<planetmaker>doesn't matter I guess
16:54<SmatZ>gcc doesn't take into account constant parameters
16:54<SmatZ>it just guesses how many ops given function will generate
16:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17310 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Codechange: about window uses nested widget tree
16:55<SmatZ>in OTTD, there are quite often functions called with constant parameters
16:55<SmatZ>or parameters/variables that would become constant after inlining
16:55<SmatZ>gcc doesn't take that into account
16:55<SmatZ>also, gcc stops inling after some point
16:55<SmatZ>(some --param-*-growth or so)
16:55<MyCatVerbs>Yeah, all compilers have to. Otherwise they go into infinite loops.
16:56<SmatZ>so it doesn't compile even the smallest possible function
16:56<MyCatVerbs>SmatZ: How come the constant-folding doesn't catch that?
16:56<SmatZ>I don't know
16:56<SmatZ>I am not gcc dev
16:56<MyCatVerbs>These are functions with no side effects, right?
16:56<SmatZ>some are, some not
16:57-!-Tefad [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:58<MyCatVerbs>Annotate all the side-effect-less ones with __attribute__((pure)) or (where the stronger condition holds) __attribute__((const)) and it should in theory get better
16:59<SmatZ>I think this isn't the most common issue
16:59<SmatZ>in OTTD code
17:00<MyCatVerbs>SmatZ: hrmn. Oh well. I've never had to force gcc to inline short functions, but then I've not written anything nearly as large as OTTD in C.
17:01<SmatZ>MyCatVerbs: one type of problems: there is a switch in "inline" functions that depends on value in map array
17:02<SmatZ>when those functions are inlined, only one access to map array is needed
17:02<SmatZ>when they are not, more accesses and more conditional jumps are needed
17:02<SmatZ>this happens quite often
17:03<SmatZ>other common problem is the above mentioned, gcc stops inlining even very small fuctnions after some point
17:03<SmatZ>causing code grows and slwer execution
17:04<SmatZ>other problem is non-inlining functions like
17:05<SmatZ>which has many parameters
17:05<SmatZ>that have to be passed via stack
17:05<SmatZ>when not inlined
17:07<MyCatVerbs>Wait, how'd TTD end up with functions of more than six-ish parameters?
17:08<SmatZ>x86 linux ABI specifies 6 registers for passing parameters?
17:10<SmatZ>well, if you are talking about x86_64...
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17:13<MyCatVerbs>SmatZ: IIRC fastcall gets you at least four in registers?
17:13<SmatZ>maybe... sounds windows-ish though :)
17:13<SmatZ>gcc supports __attribute__((regparam=n)) or so too
17:14<Yexo>hello Vikthor
17:14<SmatZ>adding attributes isn't the way to go (code niceness and such)
17:14<SmatZ>hello Vikthor
17:14<MyCatVerbs>SmatZ: dunno, I'm pretty fond of __attribute__((const)) and unused.
17:15<Yexo>MyCatVerbs: the compiler should be able to figure that out on it's own
17:15<Vikthor>SmatZ: Regarding the r17309, I think paskys second name is Baudiš
17:16<SmatZ>Vikthor: :) I noticed that too late :(
17:16<MyCatVerbs>Yexo: depends how involved the function is. The halting problem is still a real cow. :)
17:16<planetmaker>hi Vikthor
17:17<SmatZ>MyCatVerbs: OTTD uses just __attribute__((noreturn)) and __attribute__((format())) for functions...
17:17<SmatZ>I prefer too add "inline" instead ;)
17:17<SmatZ>FORCEINLINE should be transformed to "inline __attribute__((always_inline))" in future
17:18<SmatZ>someone (tm) has to check its usage before that though
17:19<SmatZ>thing I am thinking about is un-virtualizing functions
17:19<SmatZ>I wonder why C++ doesn't specify that :-x
17:20*MyCatVerbs hands SmatZ a ™ symbol.
17:21<MyCatVerbs>Specify what?
17:21<SmatZ>way to un-virtualize functions
17:21<MyCatVerbs>You're going to make a whole pile of currently polymorphically overloaded functions statically resolved instead?
17:21<MyCatVerbs>Because Bjarne was smoking something heavy when he designed the language.
17:22<SmatZ>doing t->Train::IsPrimaryVehicle() is ugly
17:22<MyCatVerbs>Fifteen grams of crack cocaine, wrapped around a lead brick.
17:22<SmatZ>when un-virtualizing IsPrimaryVehicle() in Train would do the same job
17:23<MyCatVerbs>Er, why's it virtual in the first place?
17:23<SmatZ>so Vehicle *v; v->IsPrimaryVehicle() can be used?
17:23<MyCatVerbs>You get the right behavoir either way, right? I presume that Train subclasses must never override IsPrimaryVehicle()?
17:24<Yexo>MyCatVerbs: there are no train subclasses
17:24<MyCatVerbs>Oh, I see.
17:24<MyCatVerbs>You're leaving it virtual in the root but not in the leaves.
17:24<SmatZ>I really do hope the LTO branch will solve all these problems
17:24<planetmaker>new version of the version detection out
17:25<SmatZ>yeah, but its virtuality is inherited
17:25<@Rubidium>ghehe... let them first compile OpenTTD without crashing and then wonder about the result of the compilation :)
17:26<SmatZ>planetmaker: gcc-lto :)
17:26*planetmaker has no knowledge of it.
17:26<MyCatVerbs>Link Time Optimization.
17:27<planetmaker>sounds... neat and dodgy at the same time
17:27<MyCatVerbs>Have you ever tried concatenating OpenTTD's entire sources? :D
17:27<planetmaker>no need, is there?
17:27<SmatZ>it was pain
17:27<SmatZ>and failed, of course :)
17:27<planetmaker>why do you do that, SmatZ?
17:27<MyCatVerbs>Then compile with -fwhole-program. :)
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17:28<MyCatVerbs>planetmaker: Because otherwise you only get optimization up to the boundaries of .o files, so to speak.
17:28<SmatZ>MyCatVerbs: somehow it failed
17:28<MyCatVerbs>Any optimization that would require analysis of more than one module simultaneously can't be done.
17:28<planetmaker>hm, yes
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17:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17311 /trunk/src/ (55 files in 3 dirs): -Change: rename STR_WHITE_STRINGN to STR_WHITE_STRING
17:29<MyCatVerbs>Like inlining functions defined in module A which are used in module B. AFAIK that's the most common issue?
17:29<planetmaker>writing this version-fix patch, btw, was good :-)
17:29<SmatZ>I don't remember why, I tried it quite long time ago
17:29<planetmaker>I learnt something about passing parameters by reference vs. by value ;-)
17:30<MyCatVerbs>SmatZ: Pity, but not surprising. Most projects with interesting build systems can't easily be just catted together. :/
17:32<+glx>MyCatVerbs: just use MSVC, it does LTO :)
17:32*MyCatVerbs grimaces.
17:32<MyCatVerbs>glx: but that's good to know. ^^
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17:33<planetmaker>that's interesting to know :-)
17:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17312 /trunk/src/road_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make the road toolbars and depot picker nested
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17:47<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:47-!-[com]buster is now known as Combuster
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause># da simmer dabei
18:18-!-|Terkhen| [] has quit [Quit: ...]
18:18<Eddi|zuHause># das ist priiiima
18:18<Eddi|zuHause># viva volognia
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>why must it be that whenever you come from a place where people are, you smell like you smoked?
18:23<Aankhen``>Erm, because you did?
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18:24<Eddi|zuHause>i would be a militant non-smoker, if i wasn't so lazy
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18:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17313 /trunk/src/road_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make the road station picker nested
18:25<Aankhen``>Eddi|zuHause: So you just laze around on a hammock and smoke all day instead? :-P
18:25<SmatZ>I used to be tolerant to smell of cigarets in pubs... but recently, I am having feelings of vomit when I smell that :-x
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>someone should forbid smoking in all public places
18:25<SmatZ>still I am tolerant, I just don't go to pubs...
18:26<Aankhen``>It's illegal where I live, but laws here are more like guidelines.
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>someone showed me a photo of a "smoking cabin"
18:26<SmatZ>I am against laws of this kind
18:26<SmatZ>the owner of pub should decide if, or when, people can smoke
18:27<Aankhen``>Why? They don't exist in a vacuum.
18:27<Aankhen``>That would make sense if they had their own private atmosphere.
18:27<@Rubidium>SmatZ: so the owner of a pub should decide if, or when, people can spit eachother in the face?
18:28*Rubidium is happy smoking is generally banned now
18:28<SmatZ>Rubidium: spitting in face degrades people... when you go in box ring, you can expect being hit
18:28<SmatZ>that's what you expect when you go to pub where smoking is allowed
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>it is not banned in "open" places here, which sadly includes beer tents...
18:29<Aankhen``>Uh, smoking *kills* people. I think that's a little more serious, don't you?
18:29<SmatZ>when you don't want to be hit/smell smoke, you got o pub/restaurant where smoking is forbidden
18:29<SmatZ>Aankhen``: we are born to die
18:29<Aankhen``>Wonder why everyone makes such a fuss about murder then.
18:29<SmatZ>life without any dangers and risks would be boring
18:30<@Rubidium>SmatZ: how often are you to actually choose which restaurant to go to? Most of the time I get invited, as such I have no way to choose restaurants
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: we had this siutation for decades... if there is no law against smoking, there are no pubs that forbid smoking
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>no sane pub owner would do that, and push out a large part of his customer base
18:30<SmatZ>many pubs have non-smoking and smoking areas
18:31<@Rubidium>on the other hand, the lots of smoking stuff made me not go to pubs/restaurants/whatever
18:31<SmatZ>also, you can sit outside
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>and if you know smokers, you are forced to go to a smoking area then
18:31<SmatZ>no problem in summer
18:31<@Rubidium>SmatZ: sit outside where people are smoking :(
18:31<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: yeah :(
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>instead if smoking is generally forbidden, you can sit with the smokers, and when they "feel the urge", they go outside
18:31<SmatZ>Rubidium: you have to hope in good wind direction then :(
18:31<@Rubidium>it's annoying enough that the person 3/4 houses down the road occasionally smokes outside
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>what's a 3/4 house? :p
18:32<@Rubidium>3 to 4
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>you have quadruple-houses? :p
18:32<Aankhen``>It's where they forgot to put in one wall.
18:33<SmatZ>well... I am occasional-smoker... I haven't smoked for almost a year though
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm going to shower...
18:33<@Rubidium>it only results in me coughing like hell, which in effect means that I better not open my windows in summer to cool the house
18:33<SmatZ>I dislike the smell now :-p
18:34<SmatZ>though I sometimes smoke a cigar
18:34<+glx>not good for the others :)
18:34<SmatZ>and hookah
18:35<SmatZ>true :)
18:35<SmatZ>we go outside because of that though
18:36<+glx>here we have to go outside too
18:36<SmatZ>I can't imagine such laws in France
18:36<+glx>it's to protect employees
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18:48<Eddi|zuHause>the "protection" is of not much use, when you have to walk through a (now much higher concentrated) cloud of smoke when you walk through the door
18:57<Yexo>Rubidium / DaleStan: I'm compiling nforenum and it looks like Makefile overwrites the CFLAGS from Makefile.local
18:57<Yexo>shouldn't the "-include ${MAKEFILELOCAL}" be moved a few lines down?
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19:04<Nite_Owl>is it possible in terms of NFO coding for a tram to have one speed when its tracks are off road and another speed when its tracks are on road ?
19:05<Yexo>Nite_Owl: I don't think that's currently possible
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>that should rather be a feature of the road types
19:05<Nite_Owl>I did not think so but it cannot hurt to ask
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>like a town would generally build roads that have a speed limit of 50km/h
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>and faster roads cannot be used to grow houses next to them
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>naybe the town could "downgrade" existing roads
19:09<Nite_Owl>need to feed - later all
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19:10<MyCatVerbs>Eddi|zuHause: that would make me want to bulldoze every town off the map.
19:10<MyCatVerbs>I mean sure you could implement that, but not unless you're going to implement anonymous tactical nukes too.
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure what your problem is. that is exactly how every town in the world works
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>if a town grows along an existing road, it limits that road to town speed limit
19:13<MyCatVerbs>My problem is that my road networks would spontaneously become mind-bendingly slow and useless - at exactly the same time as the towns get large enough for it to be profitable to make use of them.
19:14<MyCatVerbs>Fun over realism and all that jazz.
19:15<MyCatVerbs>Oh and also it'd muck the game balance up quite violently - making road vehicles really embarrassingly unprofitable. It'd have to be balanced out some other way.
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>the balance would be "you can't bulldoze half the town to build a train station"
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>and there could be a way to have expressways through a town
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>but the town won't grow along these
19:18<MyCatVerbs>Meh, town councils are annoying.
19:19<MyCatVerbs>I'm telling you, tactical nuclear warhead left anonymously in a suitcase somewhere.
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't understand you... you say "X must be balanced" and then you say "but that balance is annoying"
19:22<Yexo>it'd muck the game balance up <- what balance?
19:22<MyCatVerbs>Yexo: point. :/
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you want a nuclear warhead, go play command and conquer...
19:23<MyCatVerbs>Eddi|zuHause: I should be clearer. I mean town councils are annoying. Making them more annoying would probably warrant adding a tac-nuke option.
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>and there exists such an option, it's called "magic bulldozer"
19:25<MyCatVerbs>You're right, I should play Command & Conquer. :/
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19:35<Nicholas>It seems that OpenTTD is broken in fullscreen only on Mac OSX Snow Leopard
19:36<Nicholas>Works fine in windowed though
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>because macos is shit
19:38-!-Nicholas [] has quit []
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>i read that as a "yes, i agree."
19:38<MyCatVerbs>That could be construed as a little bit hostile.
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'm the least hostile person in this entire channel
19:40<MyCatVerbs>...I could start hugging everybody who comse in, and then that wouldn't be true any more.
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19:41<Eddi|zuHause>if an unprovoked hug can not be considered an act of hostility by a person unfamiliar with the culture
19:42<MyCatVerbs>You raise a good point. Hrmn.
19:42<MyCatVerbs>How about we dose them with MDMA first so they'll get all cuddly and appreciate it?
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that is, but it sounds not very comforting
19:45<MyCatVerbs>Disco biscuits.
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>is that how you meet your "girlfriends"?
19:47-!-TinoDidriksen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:49<MyCatVerbs>Eddi|zuHause: you seem to assume some really alarming things about me. oO
19:51<+glx>we didn't had enough time to suggest the usual solutions
19:53<+glx>[01:35:30] <Nicholas> It seems that OpenTTD is broken in fullscreen only on Mac OSX Snow Leopard <-- though it's a new version so it's not surprising they break our stuff again ;)
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>MyCatVerbs: you mean that from your presence in this channel i derive that you are probably male, are into women, and have trouble approaching them?
19:54<MyCatVerbs>Eddi|zuHause: that much was obvious. The alarming bit was where you semi-accused me of date-raping strangers. oO
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>well _i_ was not the person coming up with the idea of party drugs...
19:55<+glx>I understood the same thing
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19:56<MyCatVerbs>Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong with giving out free drugs on IRC?
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>probably as much as free viruses or free spam
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20:34*AC6000 eats a few sunflower seeds
20:57<AC6000>A hunter was rushed into the emergency room with a bear trap clamped onto his testicles. As the horrified doctor was examining him, he said "Man, how did this happen?" The hunter explains that he was out in the woods and felt the call of nature. Bending down by a tree, the bear trap was triggered and snapped shut on his testicles. "Oh," exclaims the doctor, "The pain must have been excruciating!" "It was," said the hunter. "The second worst pain in my li
21:02<+glx>I want the end of the story
21:06<AC6000>whered it end?
21:08<AC6000>Oh," exclaims the doctor, "The pain must have been excruciating!" "It was," said the hunter. "The second worst pain in my life." "Second worst? What could have been worse than that?" "Coming to the end of the chain" said the hunter. :P
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21:41<welshdragon>well, that was a good translating session :)
21:41<welshdragon>16 strings pending for Welsh
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 30 00:00:35 2009