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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-09-18

---Logopened Fri Sep 18 00:00:46 2009
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03:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17564 /branches/0.7/src/ (ai/ai_instance.cpp economy.cpp script/squirrel.cpp):
03:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
03:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Vehicles waiting for their time table did not load anymore after their initial load was completed [FS#3201] (r17551)
03:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Aircraft were given an unfair advantage in station rating calculations (r17550)
03:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Sign extending of profit calculation did not work (r17546)
03:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] AIs had 'infinite' time when running code from the global scope [FS#3202] (r17545)
03:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Crash when doing commands in the 'global' scope [FS#3202] (r17544)
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03:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17565 /branches/0.7/ (7 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
03:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
03:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Memory leak when viewing the NewGRF settings of a server (r17563)
03:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: The NewGRF settings of (remote) network games did not get properly updated when the NewGRFs were rescanned causing reading of freed data [FS#2972] (r17562)
03:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Close the "Add NewGRF" window when you close the "NewGRF Settings"
03:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: window. The add window has a pointer to the settings which means that not
03:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: deleting it would cause dereferencing an already freed pointer [FS#3206]
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03:40<dihedral>morning :-)
03:41*dihedral is cleaning his monitor, after having to sneeze
04:23<@Rubidium>yay... yet another boring morning :(
04:27-!-Aankhen`` [~hey.squid@] has joined #openttd
04:30<@Rubidium>ohoh... alain found a helper
04:33<dihedral>hopefully he can write proper posts....
04:33<dihedral>and be his forum-post-writing-bitch :-P
04:34<@Rubidium>anyhow 'community please give me patches to a revision I pick'-approach went to the 'okay, I will update (read: mess around with) your patch'-approach
04:36<dihedral>hehe - and "patchers please read my posts on the community integrated patch, because it's all about YOU"
04:36<dihedral> <- huge fan base :-P
04:36<@Rubidium>heh, it has doubled!
04:37<dihedral>Rubidium, well... the number of 'maintainers' has doubled too
04:37<dihedral>considered replying in the forums "you two are cute, you should get married"
04:38<@Rubidium>the binaries seem to be too big (comparing with OTTD's binaries)
04:38<dihedral>i guess it's just because of all the added grf's :-P
04:39<@Rubidium>got no clue what kind of mess they're making of it
04:39<dihedral>i should write a patch that adds a little tiny feature, but breaks a bunch of other stuff
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04:39<@Rubidium>ah, good boy... Alain added the .svn directories
04:40<dihedral>uhh... with username i hope :-D
04:40<dihedral>cute, that really really is cute
04:40<dihedral>are they in the tar.gz too?
04:41<dihedral>+ the tar.gz is of the bin directory :-D
04:41<dihedral>+ no readme + no COPYING
04:42<dihedral>ah - there they are :-P
04:42<@Rubidium>at least the .tar.gz has readme.txt and COPYING
04:42<@Rubidium>the .7z doesn't have it
04:43<dihedral>what could i break? :-P
04:45<dihedral>something that crashes after 10 mins of playing :-D
04:45<dihedral>they will not get that far while testing
04:46<dihedral>well... actually - it's not worth the effort - nobody plays it!
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04:49<@Rubidium>so, made my contribution to CIV too :)
04:49<dihedral>i can guess what it's about
04:50<@Rubidium>all my 6 points of complaint?
04:50<Doorslammer>What on Earth is all that about?
04:51<dihedral>i guessed the readme and COPYING one
04:52<Doorslammer>Community intergrated version?
04:52<dihedral>that's the name, yes
04:53<Doorslammer>What's the difference?
04:54<@Rubidium>the amount of crappiness in their process
04:55<Doorslammer>Sounds like fun
04:55<dihedral>actually it is
04:55<dihedral>2 people doing work, nobody using it :-P
04:57<@Rubidium>patch packs are losing their glamour I think
05:01<@Rubidium> <- draft for the website
05:02<@Rubidium>argh... stupid fingers... pressing the 'up' key just before the 'enter' key; a well, who cares?
05:03<@Rubidium>anyhow, what I wanted to ask: why are people actually making 100+ part trains?
05:03<Doorslammer>Recreating the big iron ore trains of the Pilbara?
05:03<Doorslammer>Otherwise, no idea
05:04<@Rubidium>they'll load incredible slowly because they're longer than the station
05:05<Doorslammer>I'm struggling to justify anything larger than 14 in any game
05:15<dihedral>Rubidium, may i point out, X11 exists for osx ....
05:16<dihedral>compiling openttd on my mac takes about 20 mins
05:17<@Rubidium>may I point out that OpenTTD with the SDL backend totally sucks, probably due to X11
05:17<dihedral>what's your plan?
05:17<dihedral>what's THE plan :-P
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05:18<@Rubidium>my plan is to ditch OSX unless someone capable shows up
05:19<dihedral>time frame?
05:19<@Rubidium>ditch as in: mark it unsupported and stop releasing OSX binaries
05:19<@Rubidium>dihedral: read it again
05:20<dihedral>"unless someone capable shows up" <- i meant that ^^
05:20<dihedral>right away?
05:20<dihedral>before 0.8
05:20<dihedral>another year / half year
05:21<@Rubidium>obviously well before the next major release
05:22<dihedral>it would be a pain to get os x support in from scratch.... i mean after ditching it
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05:22<@Rubidium>well, morphos support is ditched too, yet most of the port still remains
05:22<@Rubidium>it's likely very broken though
05:22<dihedral>do you know what percentage of people run openttd on mac?
05:22<@Rubidium>the same will hapen with OSX
05:23<@Rubidium>dihedral: have you *read* the thing?
05:23<dihedral>parts :-P
05:23<@Rubidium>jeez... I wrote it so I didn't have to answer all those basic questions
05:24<@Rubidium>apparantly it needs some other text
05:24<dihedral>sadly i only run 10.4 and i am not familiar with the sdk, though i would not mind gaining that knowledge
05:25<dihedral>chances of me buying another mac / version of os x is not that high either
05:26<@Rubidium>there, a special paragraph for dihedral
05:27<Ammler>osx doesn't have a "run in previous version" mode? so you could run ottd as 10.5 in 10.6?
05:27<dihedral>you can chose the sdk when compiling
05:27<dihedral>that's about it :-P
05:28<@Rubidium>Ammler: ofcourse not; how would they be able to support PPC OS 9 in i686 OS X 10.6
05:28<dihedral>however, i was considering buying a new computer and donating my mac :-P
05:29<Ammler>well, that is something else...
05:29*dihedral likes the first paragraph ^^
05:30<Ammler>I just mean, couldn't you simply continue support for 10.5?
05:30<dihedral>there is someone who has not read any of that document
05:31*dihedral shakes Ammlers hand
05:31<TinoDidriksen>How are the OS ports done? SDL / SFML layer?
05:31<dihedral>quarz aqua
05:32<@Rubidium>TinoDidriksen: mostly by 'virtualising' the video driver and implementing it per backend; one of the back ends is SDL, but that is very slow on OSX (up to unplayably slow)
05:33<@Rubidium>and some bits and pieces for stuff that isn't covered by e.g. SDL, though most of that is covered in a number of messy obj-C++ OSX specific files
05:34<@Rubidium>TinoDidriksen: don't think SFML is such a good candidate for OSX support though: "After several months of great work on the Mac OS X port, Ceylo has finally decided to stop maintaining it."
05:34<TinoDidriksen>Yeah, I noticed that bit...
05:34<TinoDidriksen>Is the SDL backend the OpenGL version?
05:35<@Rubidium>also neither SDL nor SFML do stuff with providing lists of which fonts are useful for a specific language
05:35<@Rubidium>and can't find much about CJK stuff either
05:36<@Rubidium>TinoDidriksen: no OpenGL; there have been some experiments with it but I haven't seen any satisfactory implementation
05:37<@Rubidium>satisfactory meaning that it doesn't break like half the GUI
05:37<TinoDidriksen>'cause if one got SDL+OpenGL working, that would be graphics solved for any platform SDL works on.
05:37<Ammler>well, I don't care that much about, but it isn't clear, if you stop osx completely or just don't support newer versions.
05:38<@Rubidium>we don't support newer versions of OSX for 0.7 and if no-one steps up we just stop supporting OSX for the next major release
05:39<@Rubidium>because by then *most* of the OSX people will be using the newer version of OSX (I guess), which means supporting older versions only is going to cause more bug reports about 10.6
05:39<@Rubidium>even though it isn't supported
05:39<Ammler>that means, it is also a big hassle to keep support for osx 10.5, It looked like you made that (big) effort already.
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05:40<@Rubidium>the 10.5 support is far from perfect
05:41<@Rubidium>Bjarni did some hacks to get it working for most people
05:47<+tokai>I wonder why apps break all the time with an new OS release under Mac OS X.
05:48<Ammler>he, then you could use the free vm for suse rpms ;-)
05:50-!-Luukland [~Luukland@] has joined #openttd
05:51<Luukland>Sir Rubidium, how can I ban a player on my server, by banning his unique id?
05:51<Ammler>Luukland: search for ban in the wiki
05:52<Ammler>afaik, only per IP
05:52<Luukland>Some players use Dinamic IP
05:52<Luukland>to evade bans :(
05:52<@Rubidium>for one, unique id isn't that unique. Furthermore changing the unique id is very easy. Besides that changing an IP is quite easy too
05:52<Luukland>True true
05:53<Luukland>Can I ban on nickname? :p
05:53<Ammler>well, we "ban" per server pw :-)
05:53<Ammler>Luukland: you could with autopilot
05:54<Luukland>I just want to keep some fellow out
05:54<@Rubidium>as if a nickname isn't even easier to change
05:54<Luukland>who comes every night
05:54<Luukland>terraforming the map
05:54<Luukland>Rubidium, sometimes the obvious is the best for those idiot who think it is fun to destroy a multiplayer game
05:56<Ammler>Luukland: and always the same guy?
05:57-!-XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
05:57<Luukland>Wallice is his name >_<
05:57<Luukland>Or wallace
05:57-!-Xeryus|bnc was kicked from #openttd by Rubidium [Xeryus|bnc]
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05:57-!-Xeryus|bnc is "XeryusTC" on #openttd +#openttdcoop.devzone #openttd.noai @+#coopetition #tycoon @+#openttdcoop #openttdcoop.bots
05:57<Luukland>Not usre :P
05:57<Muxy>Hello Luukland
05:58<Luukland>Hi :p
05:58<Muxy>Goulp Kiss !
05:58<@Rubidium>@kban 3600 Xeryus|bnc I told you about your bouncer; I hope it's 3600 seconds though
05:58<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: 3600 is not in #openttd.
05:58<@Rubidium>stupid thing
05:58<Luukland>Nooos No Goulp Admin :p
05:58<Luukland>Pls :P
05:59-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
05:59-!-Xeryus|bnc was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [I told you about your bouncer; I hope it's 3600 seconds though]
05:59<dihedral>Luukland, firewall rules
05:59<dihedral>ban the entire network
06:00<Luukland>he has dynimic IP :p
06:00<Luukland>I dont want every German to be banned :p
06:00<dihedral>he has an ISP
06:00<dihedral>you merely need to ban that ISP
06:00<Ammler>if it is t-online, you ban quite a lot :-)
06:00<dihedral>i once banned all of alaska because of one person :-P
06:00<dihedral>Ammler might remember that kid
06:01<Muxy>start to ban a 255 network range
06:01<dihedral>you can whois the ip and find out about it's range
06:01<dihedral>and simply ban that by firewall rules
06:01<Luukland>lolz :P
06:01<dihedral>other idea, is to only allow people to join as spectator
06:01<Ammler>Muxy: ip changes aren't in such a low range.
06:01<dihedral>and if they want a company, raise the max-companies limit
06:01<@Rubidium>or with deep packet inspection
06:02<Muxy>said "start"
06:02<dihedral>Luukland, linux or windows?
06:02<dihedral>yeah - ok....
06:02<dihedral>linux and windows are operating systems
06:02<Ammler>but if you use dynmic ip, the isp likes to be sure, you get really another address not just +1, at least here.
06:02<Luukland>Windows my friend, with no autopilot, nor any other scripts :P
06:03<dihedral>tough luck!
06:03<dihedral>firewall rules
06:03<dihedral>or be fast to kick / ban
06:03<dihedral>Rubidium, would it be fair to only allow clients to join as spectator?
06:03<dihedral>seeing as they can now join a company in-game
06:04<@Rubidium>another point of (counter) attack is mailing the abuse@ of his ISP
06:04<@Rubidium>and keep doing so for each time he trashes your game; just log the time and IP address
06:04<Muxy>add to the ban function the unique_id
06:04<dihedral>Luukland, once all are connected to your server, disable udp via your firewall
06:04<@Rubidium>dihedral: why reduce freedom because only a few rotten apples?
06:05<Luukland>Yeah, players do not know that the unique_id can be changed by changing the openttd.cfg :P
06:05<dihedral>freedom of the admin or the player?
06:05<Luukland>or I am wrong here? :p
06:05<dihedral>you are
06:05<dihedral>join #openttd.black_box_theory
06:05<Muxy>advanced players probably knows that
06:06<Luukland>dihedral, my server is open play :p If I wanna keep out everyone I could also set a password :P
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06:06<dihedral>company passwords?
06:06<dihedral>what about them?
06:06<Luukland>No a server pass :p
06:06<dihedral>yeah - but setting company passwords stops others from joining the companies
06:07<Muxy>luukland: do all your player set a comany password
06:07<Luukland>no of course not :P
06:07<Luukland>Some are noob :p
06:07<dihedral>ah... i see
06:07<Luukland>Others dont speak any English :p
06:07<Muxy>i have a patch who makes password mandatory
06:07<Luukland>lolz :P
06:07<Luukland>You have a patch for everything :P
06:07<dihedral>what did you eat today Luukland
06:07<Luukland>crackers with jam and appelstroom :p
06:08<dihedral>no drugs in that?
06:08<Muxy>i have also openttd servers to administer
06:08<Luukland>Well Muxy, I would be glad to accept your gift
06:08<Muxy>and also have some problems with some players
06:08<Luukland>What makes you think that dihedral?
06:08<@Rubidium>oh, and I vote for closing Gymnasiums in Germany; of the last 4 incidents at German schools that were covered in the NL two were Gymnasiums, so there must be a strong connection between those
06:08<dihedral>lolz :-P xD xD xD ....
06:08<dihedral>must i elaborate?
06:09<Luukland>ghe ghe, I can have fun writing here, right?
06:09<Luukland>Or must I be serious.... ...
06:09<dihedral>Rubidium, :-D
06:09<dihedral>nice one
06:09<Luukland>Muxy, are u willing to share it with me in private?
06:09<dihedral>Luukland, make the difficulty harder, will stop noobs from playing ^^
06:09<Muxy>also have some to lock particular player or lock terraforming
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06:10<dihedral>i once had a patch to mute clients chat :-P
06:10<Muxy>nice idea..
06:10<Luukland>Muxy, if you have the links, I would be happy to accept
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06:11<Muxy>and sends back the chat to te client,
06:11<Muxy>in that case he will think he is not muted...
06:11<Muxy>hum, a link to a windows binary ?
06:11<Luukland>yes please :P
06:11<Muxy>with the watch command included ?
06:11<Luukland>preferably :p
06:12<Luukland>I like that patch :p
06:12<Chris_Booth>mornig all
06:12<Muxy>yes, i have to talk about it,
06:12<Luukland>I have to go now to reach the train on time, we will meet again I am sure :)
06:13<Muxy>register to the goulp forum in order for me to have your mail
06:13<Chris_Booth>oh dihedral someone came into #openttdcoop and was asking for you on tuesday
06:13<Luukland>Beya all, thx for the answers!! And dihedral, :P :P I looove you :P :P
06:13<Luukland>Ok Muxy I will remember :)
06:13<Muxy>i will build the windows stuff for you
06:13<Luukland>great :
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06:14<dihedral>Chris_Booth, thanks, that someone was umj - and he has been coming everywhere looking for me!!
06:14<Chris_Booth>iot was umj
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06:24<dihedral>Rubidium, write openttd in Java :-D
06:24*dihedral hides
06:26<Muxy>dihedral: there is a mobile game in java : train tycoon
06:26<dihedral>and where is train tycoon = openttd?
06:26<Muxy>there are some simili
06:27<dihedral>i want a cherry tree... hmmm - i have some bushes - are you interested?
06:27<dihedral>what? they both have leaves... and twigs.... and roots!!
06:28<dihedral>Rubidium, i must say - i could not blame you guys if you ditch os x support
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06:29<Muxy>I have a mirabelle, thank you
06:29<dihedral>though i wish i could be of help
06:29<Muxy>your welcome
06:29<dihedral>i doubt i would be able to find all that much time
06:37*Rubidium wonders whether dihedral wants to be on 'the list' again :)
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06:55-!-Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
06:56<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> <- draft for the website <-- "might become less unresponsive." <- i'm not sure that is really what you tried to say :p
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07:45<planetmaker> <- draft for the website <--- :-(
07:47<Xaroth>the man makes sense though
07:47<planetmaker>it does
07:49<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: It needs a big "If you are a Mac coder person and want to make it work (and make it keep working), send us an email" sign
07:51<planetmaker>s/send an email/get in touch with us/
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08:08<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: what is the fly spray number for the duplicate of FS#3209?
08:14<planetmaker>entry of #3209 should tell you, Chris_Booth
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08:15<Chris_Booth>it doesnt planetmaker other wise i wouldnt have asked
08:15<planetmaker>but doesn't :-P
08:17<Chris_Booth>i have requested a re open
08:21<Ammler>hmm, but we once did 64 tile trains.
08:21<Chris_Booth>you cant anymore
08:22<Ammler>but that isn't the bug?
08:22<Chris_Booth>its part of the bug
08:22<Chris_Booth>why should TL be limited to 50?
08:23<Chris_Booth>and why should game crash if you make tl 50.5?
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i have a file that looks like either a hard drive or partition image... how do i find out what type of file system is in there?
08:26<Ammler>limit is ok, if needed, but the crash shouldn't happen, I guess.
08:26<Chris_Booth>Ammler: why have station spread @ 64 and trainlimit @ 50?
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>and of course khexedit tries to read in the whole 30GB file...
08:27<Ammler>I don't know, why it is limited now, I thought, you made much bigger trains.
08:27<Chris_Booth>not if you have the loco at the front of the train
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08:28<Ammler>Chris_Booth: weren't you able to reproduce the bug with clean trunk?
08:28<Ammler>without newgrfs?
08:28<Chris_Booth>yeah thats what i put up on fly spray
08:28<Chris_Booth>plus the server crash report
08:28<Ammler>hmm, the crash.log is from our ps.
08:28<Chris_Booth>i know
08:28<Chris_Booth>check my image
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>i am searching for a modern version of diskedit, which could interpret harddisk data like FAT and directories
08:29<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: just run any version of diskedit from USB
08:29<Chris_Booth>at startup
08:30<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: did you try to mount the disk?
08:30<Ammler>(or file)
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, didn't work...
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it looks like a full disk image, and to mount those you have to filter out stuff to get to the partition
08:31<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: maybe the file is one of those stupid backup files? That mac osx create and windows create something similar
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>there was some fdisk magic you could do there, but i don't remember it
08:31<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: ask at #opensuse ;-)
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08:32<Luukland>Mr. Muxy are u here?
08:32<Muxy>eddi|zuhause: Winhex is the modern version of diskedit
08:33<Luukland>I have registrered (enregistré) on your forum I believe :)
08:33<Muxy>Ok, but i thougth about something less stupid... tt-forums
08:35<Eddi|zuHause><Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: just run any version of diskedit from USB <- i only have really ancient versions of diskedit, they don't even understand FAT32
08:35<Chris_Booth>oh I see
08:35<Luukland>I am also registered at tt-forums
08:35<Luukland>Under same nick of course :)
08:35<Muxy>of course, moi ausso
08:35<Muxy>euh moi aussi
08:36<Muxy>i think i will have some spare time this weekend
08:36<Muxy>to build the what you need
08:36<Luukland>Ghe ghe, I would be delighted to receive it ;)
08:36-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
08:37<Muxy>of course, it will use the last stable release : 072
08:38<Luukland>That is fine with me
08:38<Luukland>Although that release has a serious money exploit :p
08:38<Muxy>yeah i saw your entry on flyspray
08:39<Muxy>who has been fixed recently
08:40<Luukland>fixed in 073
08:41<Luukland>to be precise yes :P
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08:57<Luukland>welcome email :p
08:58<Muxy>communication is engaged
08:58<Luukland>How funny, but just like most of the Dutch we do understand French, now I only gotta find where the English button is ^^
08:58<Luukland>Ah found it
08:58<Muxy>In Mon Profile, langue combo list
08:59<Luukland>jep, thanks
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09:09<@Belugas>spare time? Muxy, can you spare me some spare time?
09:09<@Belugas>hello all
09:09<Muxy>PACKET_SERVER_WELCOME (Belugas)
09:09<Muxy>what do you want for money honey ?
09:10<Muxy>grumpf, its what do you do...
09:11*Muxy spare some spare time to Belugas
09:17<@Belugas>honey money poney Myway orTheHighWay yeahyeah
09:17<@Belugas>woaaaa!!! c'est l'invasin des francophones! Go guys go!!
09:17<@Belugas>guys a gogo
09:17*Belugas shuts up, getting insane
09:18<Luukland>... --- ...
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09:19<Terkhen>0x53 0x4F 0x53
09:19<Luukland>:P Thats the code for it? :P
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>technically, SOS is submitted without spaces, so ...---... (as one symbol)
09:21<Sacro> <- sexy as
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what you are trying to get at...
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09:23<Sacro>minimaps are sweet
09:23<Luukland>Eddi|zuHause, origionally it was ...---.
09:24<Prof_Frink>That's something else.
09:24<Prof_Frink>Spies and saboteurs.
09:25<@Belugas>espions et saboteurs
09:25<@Belugas>pions et sabot moteur
09:25<@Belugas>petons et cabot menteur
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: are you off your medication again?
09:27<Luukland>the international distress call evolved from SOE
09:27<Luukland>which was used by German companies
09:27<Luukland>(damn Germans again :P)
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>"we are sinking, we are sinking" -- "what are you sinking about?"
09:29<@Belugas>i'm sinking the rain
09:29<@Belugas>i'm singing the rain
09:29<@Belugas>i'm singing in the rain
09:29*Xaroth watches Belugas sink in the rain
09:29<@Belugas>and now... me is going to shut up, as he is about to start another fucking certif test. 40 transactions
09:30<Muxy>singin in the train ??
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>that'd be a cool idea for OpenMusic ;)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>btw. did anyone ever check the originals for the music titles, maybe some of them are old enough to have their copyright expired
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause><Luukland> the international distress call evolved from SOE <-- i cannot find any references to this
09:43<Luukland>here you go:
09:43<Luukland>A whole article about the international distress call :)
09:45<@Belugas>SOS was developed from the general German radio call "SOE", with the 3 dits of an "S" easier to hear under noisy conditions than the one dit of an "E".
09:45<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause does not know his own history!!!
09:46<Muxy>dont prrrrrrrrt, beware of the GRIP
09:48<Luukland>(what does the GRIP do?)
09:48<@Belugas>it hangs on you
09:48<@Belugas>it bangs on you
09:49<@Belugas>it sang on you
09:50<Eddi|zuHause><Belugas> SOS was developed from the general German radio call "SOE", with the 3 dits of an "S" easier to hear under noisy conditions than the one dit of an "E". <-- it does not have this in the german article
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>it only said "SOS was introduced in an international conference in 1906 in berlin"
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>and before that, "CQD" was used
09:56<Luukland>Bla bla
09:59<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, i'd rather trust the article that gives an evolution, which means more researches, than the one who just says "Here we go: this is the code"
10:00<@Belugas>but all in all, it means more researchs will be required to be fairly certain about exactitude of origine
10:00<Luukland>Just use wikipedia :p
10:01<Luukland>reliable enough for today's use
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10:02<@Belugas>but obviously not for Eddi|zuHause :)
10:02<Sacro>whoo CQ
10:03*Sacro should get his ham radio licence
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>Luukland: obviously, gave more info than [which redirects to morse code]
10:03<@Belugas>"Popular accounts of the origin of "SOS" fail to mention that the Germans had used "SOS" for a distress signal. They adopted the signal "SOS" for distress as well as "SOE" for inquiry on April 1, 1905, a year before the Berlin conference"
10:03<Sacro>i don't recall SOE
10:03<Sacro>i do recall CQD
10:04<Sacro>as in 'seek you distress'
10:06<Luukland>--_-- --_--
10:06<@Belugas>Heek! a mistress
10:06*Muxy Eat at Joe's !
10:06<@Belugas>See? a high Stress
10:07*Luukland slaps Muxy around with an SOS, or an SOE, whatever you prefer :)
10:10*Muxy Kiss everybody who wants to slap me
10:11<@Belugas>hein? who want to sleep with you?
10:12*Muxy has an Armada 500 whos dead
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>have it send a distress signal :p
10:13*Muxy has spare parts for Armada 500
10:14<Muxy>only a buuuurrrp in the speakers, then shuts down
10:16<Muxy>and it smells burned
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10:17<Muxy>packet_server_welcome Chris_Booth
10:22*Muxy is now playing: Jeunesse - Dessins Animés - Jeunesse - Dessins Animés - franklin
10:22<@Rubidium>Chris_Booth: 3208
10:22<Luukland>scripts!! :P
10:22<Luukland>I smell bots, scripts and all!
10:23<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17566 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_basestation.hpp.sq: -Fix: ai_basestation.hpp.sq linked to the wrong header; it did work though
10:24<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17567 /trunk/ (29 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: some doxygen warnings
10:27<Luukland>Seems like I have overstayed me visit
10:27<Luukland>Beya all!!
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10:32<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: thanks for that case number
10:32<@Rubidium>now I see I made a typo when I closed it 3209 instead of 3208
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10:34<Chris_Booth>I said to SmatZ i was going to pulsh the case today
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10:38<@Rubidium>gheheh... most of the time people say that about bug reports they forget to add them and a few months later complain to us why it isn't fixed yet 'because they told us'
10:39<Chris_Booth>ooh well sorry
10:39<Chris_Booth>i am not like that thought , SmatZy should know that
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12:52<Eddi|zuHause># Schönes Fräulein, Lust auf mehr?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause># Blitzkrieg mit dem Fleischgewehr
12:53<Eddi|zuHause># Schnapps im Kopf, du holde Braut
12:53<Eddi|zuHause># Steck Bratwurst in dein Sauerkraut
12:57<_ln># Schönes Fräulein, nach dem Öffnen kühl aufbewahren und innerhalb von drei Tagen verbrauchen
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>not quite what i meant :p
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r17568 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt russian.txt unfinished/vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: romanian - 28 changes by kkmic
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: russian - 7 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 53 changes by nglekhoi
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14:35<Eddi|zuHause>Muxy: join messeges start getting annoying very quickly
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14:52<Muxy>same as saying hello, no ?
14:53<Muxy>thinking it was an amazing alt'. Yet Another Way to Say Hello
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and saying hello into an idle channel is very annoying.
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14:56<@Rubidium>(so is someone not on my ignore list (yet) talking to someone on it)
14:56<Muxy>who is and who is not, that is the question
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly certain about who is who ;)
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>that is one reason why i can't maintain an ignore list...
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15:20<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure you also have a manual ignore list ;-)
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>no, i can't ignore stuff as long as it's in my visibility range
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's very annoying for spelling mistakes and stuff
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm, anyone ever profiled the overhead of NoAI while no AI is running?
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15:36<planetmaker>surely someone would have done it.
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>the irc log does not have any results grepping for "profile" and "noai"
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>except the line above
15:42<planetmaker>maybe the noai IRC channel?
15:42<planetmaker>or somewhere in the noai sub-forums?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have logs of that channel
15:42<planetmaker>I dunno either, but hard to believe :-)
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15:48<Alberth>not sure how relevant it is. Max load happens when AI's are running, then the game has to be fast enough. It is unlikley to cost more time when no AI is running.
15:49<CraKinShOt>evening all. :)
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15:52<@Belugas>hello and welcome back
15:53<_ln>thank you
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>(very NSFW:
15:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17569 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Town view window runs with nested widgets.
15:59<_ln>quite unconventional
16:06<Xaroth>not that exclusive anymore
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16:12<Illegal_Alien>Weird stuff, i can type stuff here but not on #tycoon :(
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16:16<CraKinShOt>Looking at the openttd code for first time. Thank god visual studio has project search for functions. :D
16:16<aaa>is there a way to switch view angle?
16:16<CraKinShOt>don't think so.
16:16<aaa>I cant find it
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16:24<Alberth>aaa: you can make the view transparent with 'x'
16:25<@Belugas>aaa, it has never been in any versions of TTD
16:25<@Belugas>there is one angle, and only one
16:30<planetmaker>configure detects nicley all libs which openttd can use and which I have. How do I tell it to actually NOT use a lib I have and it could use?
16:31<Noldo>which one?
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16:31<planetmaker>--with-icu <-- like the reverse of this
16:31<Noldo>--help doesn't tell?
16:31<planetmaker>too obvious
16:31<planetmaker>it only tells with
16:31<@Rubidium> --without-osx-sysroot disable the automatic adding of sysroot
16:32<Ammler>source has a lot more options then --help
16:33<planetmaker>thanks Rubidium
16:33<@Rubidium>what isn't listed in help is mostly the different ways of getting certain things done
16:33<Ammler>i.e. what I have missed was the option to disable personal-dir
16:34<@Rubidium>e.g. --with-png, --without-png, --with-libpng, --without-libpng (for most the libraries)
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16:34<Ammler>maybe --help should just "cat config.lib" :-)
16:37<CraKinShOt>wow... the tile definitions and bits are insain. :O
16:38<CraKinShOt>bit fields might have been useful? :D
16:39<planetmaker>what do you think they are?
16:40<CraKinShOt>no I mean actual struct defined bit fields
16:40<CraKinShOt>all I see here are bytes m1, m2
16:41<CraKinShOt>in the def they are given context
16:41<CraKinShOt>(html definition on the landscape)
16:41<planetmaker>yes... but so they're still bit fields, are they?
16:42<planetmaker>what would be the point of making a bloating struct around it?
16:42*Rubidium wonders how such a bit field struct would look
16:42<CraKinShOt>unsigned short threebitvalue : 3;
16:42*Rubidium also wonders how many different of them there would be
16:42*Rubidium ponders the Endianness and compiler settings implications with that too
16:43<CraKinShOt>well I'm new so I'm just trying to get my head around this code.
16:43<CraKinShOt>must be a true headache though if you ever wanted to add more bits to anything
16:43<@Rubidium>besides that, when was that feature introduced to C?
16:44<@Rubidium>no, it's a sport!
16:44<@Belugas>[16:38] <CraKinShOt> bit fields might have been useful? :D <--- might I suggest to first know why OpenTTD is like it is before posing a judgment?
16:44<@Belugas>it would be...less... demagogic
16:45<CraKinShOt>hehe touche.
16:45<@Belugas>and adding more bits is not required, since there are some unused bits already.
16:45<@Rubidium>However, bit members in structs have practical drawbacks. First, the ordering of bits in memory is architecture dependent and memory padding rules vary from compiler to compiler. In addition, many popular compilers generate inefficient code for reading and writing bit members.
16:46<CraKinShOt>I'm just wondering how to add some information, or whether I'd actually put it in the tile
16:46<@Belugas>depends a lot on what, why and when...
16:46<planetmaker>CraKinShOt: find the (a bit outdated) Grass on Tracks patch and have a look
16:47<CraKinShOt>No offense to anyone like, you guys know what you're doing. ;)
16:48*planetmaker doesn't ;-)
16:48*Alberth does for a very small portion of the code.
16:48<planetmaker>e.g. I cannot even reproduce the compile error I reported...
16:48<CraKinShOt>ahh lol
16:49<planetmaker>grr... 8 minutes compile time :S
16:49<CraKinShOt>wow, for the trunk?
16:49<@Rubidium>Apple's GCC is uhm... kinda bloated
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16:49<@Rubidium>others would say it isn't because it's LLVM, but it's the slowest compiler for OpenTTD
16:50<CraKinShOt>ah well, now I understand
16:50<planetmaker>granted, I had --with-everything, but...
16:51<@Rubidium>CraKinShOt: from the ISO/IEC 14882 ANSI C++ (1998) specs: "Allocation of bit-fields within a class object is implementation-defined. Alignment of bit-fields is implementation-defined. Bit-fields are packed into some addressable allocation unit."
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16:52<@Rubidium>which in effect means: do not use it for data you want to store in a way that is readable for an application compiled with a different compiler (incl. versions) or for a different architecture.
16:53<CraKinShOt>ahh, my bad. Personally, I've never used them. Don't work in CUDA. hehe.
16:53<CraKinShOt>... and my work in cuda was the first time I needed to pack bits
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16:55<CraKinShOt><@Belugas> depends a lot on what, why and when... <- adding information to the signals, but not to break their type
16:55<@Rubidium>ah CUDA... yet another thing not very useful for OpenTTD (read the forum thread about it)
16:56<CraKinShOt>yeah I saw some stuff on that
16:56<planetmaker>hm, I can. Mrproper is my friend
16:56<CraKinShOt>CUDA is great, until you overflow crash the card, crash the driver and crash windows. :)
16:58<@Rubidium>planetmaker: let me guess, it's strgen?
16:59<planetmaker>dunno yet
16:59<planetmaker>but would make sense, yes
16:59<planetmaker>as that's not rebuild when I do source modifications
16:59<@Rubidium>what? you reproduced the error but don't know where?
16:59<planetmaker>well. Same error as I reported already a few days ago on FS
17:00<planetmaker>[LANG] Compiling core/alloc_func.cpp
17:01<planetmaker> ottd/fix_apple/src/core/../os/macosx/osx_stdafx.h:30:3: error: #error "Compiling 64 bits without _SQ64 set! (or vice versa)"
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17:01<planetmaker>^^ that one
17:01<@Rubidium>guess that _SQ64 isn't set in CFLAGS_BUILD
17:01<planetmaker>And I wondered why I didn't get it in another repo
17:02<@Rubidium>try ./configure CFLAGS=-D_SQ64
17:02<planetmaker>I will
17:02<@Rubidium>might break later on if you're making 'cross' compiles
17:05<CraKinShOt>hmm... but how does anyone know what bits (or at least the unresearved bits) do?
17:05<CraKinShOt>are the unused bits valid as of the latest trunk version?
17:05<planetmaker>hm... that command to configure doesn't change anything
17:06<planetmaker>and it is compiling 64bit w/o having _SQ64 defined, yes
17:06<planetmaker>(not vice versa)
17:06<@Rubidium>it's compiling a 64 bits strgen without having _SQ64 defined
17:06<@Rubidium>guess the whole _SQ64 checking needs to be wrapped into some #ifdef STRGEN or so
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17:08<Zuu>Have been made lots of restructing of PAXLink code for about 2-3 hours. Now lets see how broken the code is :-D
17:08<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I believ eI did: CFLAGS=-m64 ./configure
17:10<Eddi|zuHause><CraKinShOt> <@Belugas> depends a lot on what, why and when... <- adding information to the signals, but not to break their type <-- maybe check the (unfinished) advance signalling patch by michi_cc, it adds a third signal state
17:11<TrueBrain>planetmaker: ah, no, the check in osx_stdafx.h turned out to be lame
17:11<Eddi|zuHause><CraKinShOt> are the unused bits valid as of the latest trunk version? <-- check docs/landscape.html
17:12<planetmaker>TrueBrain: it seems to be a check... well... is it needed?
17:12<planetmaker>that's what I wonder :-)
17:12<TrueBrain>it is a broken check ;)
17:12<@Rubidium>the check isn't broken on itself; it just doesn't work for strgen where _SQ64 isn't defined at all ever
17:13<planetmaker>_SQ64 is only defined in some squirrel stuff
17:13<@Rubidium>no, config.lib defines _SQ64 for 64 bits compilers
17:14<planetmaker>maybe. But only the squirrel files have that in the source
17:14<@Rubidium>but for OSX I've added some checks because of the mess with their 64 bits support
17:14<@Rubidium>missing stuff etc
17:14<@Rubidium>and I didn't want to (erroneously) enable stuff like quicktime which does NOT work with 64 bits (at least not with OTTD's code)
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17:14<@Rubidium>or disable it when it doesn't need to be disabled
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17:16<planetmaker> <-- well, but... where is that actually used in the code then?
17:17<@Rubidium>the crash logger...?
17:17<planetmaker>see the paste I posted
17:17<planetmaker>or do I miss something really obvious?
17:17<@Rubidium>okay, I'm blind... sorry, line 12 doesn't mention crashlog.cpp but something squirrel-ish
17:20<planetmaker>right. I missed that. Wood and trees and so :-)
17:20<planetmaker>still... that shouldn't justify a compile error.
17:21<@Rubidium>true; it just shows an error in my 64 bits port effort which was made completely without an actual 64 bits OSX, so if that's the only... I did a fairly good job I'd say
17:22<planetmaker>I tend to agree.
17:22<@Rubidium>nevertheless, it's something for 'the next' OSX developer to fix; I've had it with 'stab-in-the-dark' attempts of fixing OSX bugs
17:22<CraKinShOt>ahaaa... the [grass on tracks] guy used the extended tile bits. :D
17:23<CraKinShOt>oh wait
17:23<planetmaker>Rubidium: even so: in the crash.log I produced, it is noted as 64 bit OS nevertheless, if I ignore that compile error
17:24<@Rubidium>64 bits OS doesn't imply 64 bits binary (see Windows)
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17:24<planetmaker>Same goes for mac.
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17:25<planetmaker>it can execute 32bit ones.
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17:26*CraKinShOt searching...
17:28<CraKinShOt>Okay, so in theory... if there aren't enough bits int the future for tiles... you'd add more to TileExtended?
17:29<planetmaker>CraKinShOt: in theory. But for every byte you add, you add 1 MByte of average savegame size
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>CraKinShOt: what exactly are you trying to achieve? programmable signals of some sort?
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17:35<planetmaker>anyway, good night for now :-)
17:38<TrueBrain>sleep well planetmaker
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17:41<CraKinShOt>well I'm trying to do aspects and signal feathers. simple method would need 7 bits I think.
17:41<@Rubidium>times 2, because there can be 2 independent signals on a tile
17:42<CraKinShOt>well other method is you try and hack it do its done at runtime and not in the tile
17:42<@Rubidium>oh 'plenty' of free bits ;)
17:43<CraKinShOt>so when you go to render the signal you try and workout what the state should be.
17:43<CraKinShOt>signal feathers have a max of 6 direction states
17:44<@Rubidium>the pathfinder also needs to know (some) stuff
17:44<CraKinShOt>and its determined by whether you come off the mainline and how many times you "go left" or "go right"
17:44<@Rubidium>and given that lots of screenshots are filled with thousands of signals a complex way to draw them might be unwanted
17:45<CraKinShOt>well you'd only need 1 bit extra that affected the pathfinders (the yellow signal)
17:45<CraKinShOt>the rest is purely visual
17:46<@Rubidium>didn't I read something about double yellow?
17:46<@Rubidium>or double green?
17:46<CraKinShOt>one step at a time. :D
17:46<CraKinShOt>yeah and flashing yellows
17:46<@Rubidium>even so, those double yellow signals seems to be something British
17:46<CraKinShOt>well I've had a look at US signals and german ones
17:46<CraKinShOt>they have something simular
17:47<CraKinShOt>its just a little different
17:51<CraKinShOt>what I really need then is some kind of hash table of signals
17:51<CraKinShOt>and seperate the extra signal information from the tiles
17:51<CraKinShOt>so you don't need to store all that information for every single tile
17:52<CraKinShOt>But can't see having to look up the hash table every time you needed to draw a signal would be fast
17:54<CraKinShOt>then again, you're only rendering the tiles which need rendering.
17:55<CraKinShOt>and not every signal needs the feathers, only the ones with junctions ahead
17:57<CraKinShOt>See this is why I like irc, real life doesn't have a log when you talk to yourself. :D
17:57<@Rubidium>you could look to TTDP's way of having off-map information for signals
17:58<CraKinShOt>thats the patch right?
17:58<CraKinShOt>worth a shot
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18:00<Keith>Good evening
18:01<Keith>I'm looking for some help regarding train signals
18:01*Rubidium wonders whether that's the same help CraKinShOt needs with signals :)
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18:02<Keith>I have a 4 platform station but my trains only use 2 of them
18:03<@Rubidium>do you have a screenshot of it?
18:04<CraKinShOt>Is it a nice screenshot?
18:05<Keith>Very Basic
18:05<CraKinShOt>lol, sorry pulling leg.
18:05<CraKinShOt>ummm I guess upload to the forum? so people can see whats going wrong?
18:06<CraKinShOt>when you say trains only use 2 platforms
18:06<CraKinShOt>if those two platforms are in use, do trains wait?
18:07<Keith>I have an exit signal at the end of each line
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18:09<CraKinShOt>probably need to see it tbh.
18:09<CraKinShOt>forum is best bet
18:09<Keith>hich forum should I use?
18:10<CraKinShOt>OpenTTD right?
18:10<Lakie> ?
18:10<Lakie>Scroll down the page, there should be OpenTTD and then a section for OpenTTD Problems.
18:10<CraKinShOt>OpenTTD Problems
18:11<Lakie>Too many people put it in TTDPatch Problems.
18:11<@Rubidium>Lakie: :)
18:11<Lakie>It broke off into a new forum?
18:11<@Rubidium>try it
18:11<Lakie>Oh, it just redirects
18:12*CraKinShOt is not trawling through ASM tonight, no sir
18:12<Keith>OK....looking for it
18:12<Lakie>So if they follow that link , how do they manage to put it into the TTDPatch Problems section so often. Lol
18:13<@Rubidium>googol probably doesn't link to that subsequent
18:13<Lakie>Assembly isn't so bad, though I must admit I prefer 'higher' level langages.
18:13<Lakie>Thats probably true.
18:14<Zuu>Woho! PAXLink does no longer keep to many bus stops in towns anymore :-) Bus stops with to low usage and rating are removed. And whenever needed new bus stops should be built.
18:14<CraKinShOt>Well its commented, at least
18:14<Dreamxtreme>nice !
18:14<Lakie>Commented? You can comment in assembly, ever looked at any of my code? ;)
18:14<Dreamxtreme>i remember the days buses used to go out of the town and get lost for no apparent reason
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18:15<@Rubidium>Lakie: no idea how they leak into TTDPatch's problems section though
18:15<Lakie>I guess the register, it goes to the main page?
18:15<Lakie>And then they don't think to scroll down or something.
18:15<Lakie>when they register*
18:16<@Rubidium>Lakie: but the major part of TTDP isn't your commented assembly but nice commentless assembly
18:16<Zuu>Hmm, a bus stop that never gets visited in one town gets increased rating when the other feeder bus stop gets served..
18:17<Lakie>Most devs seem to know assembly too well and don't comment at all. :(
18:17<Lakie>There is something to be said for having it as a requirement to get code into the project.
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18:17<CraKinShOt>I'm amazed the patch is still going on after Openttd
18:17<Lakie>There are a few features yet to be ported.
18:18<Lakie>Enhanced Tunnels for one
18:18<CraKinShOt>^ was looking for that the other day
18:18<@Rubidium>Lakie: feel free to implement it in a sane (non hack) way :)
18:18<Lakie>Its surprising how much smaller some juctions got.
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18:19<Lakie>Hehe, I might, but first I'd have to take some time to learn how OpenTTD works and its code.
18:19<Lakie>Probably easier than second guessing which code isn't and is modified multieple times though. x_x
18:19<CraKinShOt>well someone hacked the z-depth (I think) and tried doing underground (and above ground rails)
18:20<Lakie>Number of times my hooks failed because someone already replaced that code was surprisingly high
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18:20<Lakie>I don't think that'd work so well in TTDPatch, I wasn't too keen on it in Loco.
18:21<Lakie>Not unless you can hide everything above hieght x
18:21<Lakie>Otherwise everything gets obsured
18:21<CraKinShOt>well thats what this guy did (in openttd)
18:21<CraKinShOt>apparently work stopped though
18:22<Lakie>I imagine one problem developing with OpenTTD is keeping up with its development.
18:23<Lakie>The pace is very quick, hard to keep up with it, if you fall behind or something changes you were using.
18:23<@Rubidium>and the many refactors :)
18:23<CraKinShOt>Well there was another topic (and project) that mentioned they wanted a seperation of bridges from tunnels... or something to that end. And they said they could'nt do it without a big change to the base code
18:23<CraKinShOt>... and that this subway project stopped because of the same problem
18:23<Lakie>Tunnels and bridges are still thought of as portals
18:24<Lakie>I remember looking at the code a while back.
18:24<@Rubidium>yup, nice black holes
18:24<Lakie>Something Belugas was working on.
18:24<Lakie>Well, TTD as an engine doesn't really have a concept of 3d.
18:24<Lakie>Atleast not at tile level.
18:25<CraKinShOt>yes, I read somewhere that one of the devs tried to add a z-array to tiles
18:25<CraKinShOt>or something to that effect
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18:26<@Rubidium>yes, those have been tried in different variations; all considerably slower :(
18:26<CraKinShOt>how did RollerCoster tycoon do it?
18:26<Lakie>Well, you start having to check a tile several times (for different z hieghts)?
18:26*Rubidium thinks TTDP's biggest problem is the fact that there's no release manager
18:26*Lakie knows not
18:26<CraKinShOt>it seemed like an updated version of the TT engine to me
18:26<Lakie>That was Josef, but he's so busy now it doesn't happen.
18:27*CraKinShOt grabs a cold one
18:27<@Rubidium>and now the amount of work (updating changelog etc) to release a new beta is just enormous
18:28<Lakie>Well, not so much for 2.5
18:28<Lakie>But for 2.6 it'd be beyond massive...
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18:29<@Rubidium>that's why I update the changelog for the next major release every few weeks :)
18:31<Lakie>It keeps it more manageable, although don't you get like 200-500 commits a week?
18:32<@Rubidium>almost 2000 commits since the branch (a bit over 6 months ago)
18:32<@Rubidium>@calc 2000/26
18:32<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 76.9230769231
18:33<Lakie>Thats not so bad
18:33<@Rubidium>@calc 168/77
18:33<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 2.18181818182
18:33<Lakie>What about over all?
18:33<Lakie>(trunk and braches)
18:33<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> even so, those double yellow signals seems to be something British <-- german advance signals (H/V system) show double green or double yellow
18:33<Lakie>Not as bad as the 230~ in 2 weeks of my group project for uni. >_>
18:33<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: there seem to be at least a dozen different systems
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>(for "next main signal is green/red)
18:34<@Rubidium>Lakie: those 2000 commits include the branches (that are in svn)
18:34<@Rubidium>which is only the 0.7 release branch
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>(they can also show yellow+green for "next signal is green with speed limit)
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>i know of 5 different (incompatible) systems used in germany
18:34<Lakie>Heh, fair enough
18:35<@Rubidium>~80 commits in the 0.7 branch
18:36<CraKinShOt>So really, to keep everyone happy any multi-aspect system would need to be flexible, so newgrf could be used for different locations...
18:37<@Rubidium>oh, that calls for a callback :)
18:37<CraKinShOt>it really would have to be seperated from the tile
18:37<@Rubidium> :)
18:38<DaleStan><CraKinShOt> nightmare
18:39<@Rubidium>Keith: try connecting the track to the station :)
18:40<@Rubidium>(in other words, you're missing 2 track pieces)
18:41<Keith>Ah...can't see that...will try again
18:41<@Rubidium>Keith: press X
18:43<Lakie>Ah, thats the transparency hotkey
18:43<Keith>OK...I see that gives my station transparency
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18:44*Lakie being from TTDPatch keeps hitting t and wondering why nothing goes transparent. ...
18:44<Keith>And if you excuse the trains are now quite chuffed
18:44<@Rubidium>Lakie: then read the manual (wiki) :)
18:45<Lakie>I noticed most hotkeys have been rebound, and the speed up has moved since I last used OpenTTD also...
18:45<@Rubidium>then you must've used speed up a really long time ago, or you must have been using debug and release builds
18:46<Lakie>I never manage to run debug releases for some reason.
18:46<Lakie>It'd be a huge file and crash pretty much instantly.
18:47<Lakie>I think the last time I used the speed up hotky OpenTTD was around 0.5.x
18:49<Lakie>And most of the 0.6 life time I used to compile it, but now I'm lazy and don't have most of the things I need to.
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18:51<Lakie>Errr, I meant compiles not releases.
18:54<CraKinShOt>oh wow, those callbacks look like a nightmare too
18:56<CraKinShOt>can you define a new callback method? or do you have to hack the existing ones?
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, callbacks are rather easy to provide, then the newgrf authors have to deal with it :p
18:57<DaleStan>Most of the callbacks are pretty tame -- return one number in 0..7FFF.
18:57<DaleStan>146 is ... something else entirely.
18:57<Lakie>I was going to say, I don't remember callbacks looking all that complex.
18:58<Lakie>Isn't there actually a no use zone for TTDPatch?
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>a what?
18:59<Lakie>Numbers one doesn't use as not to break backwards compatibility with grfs which only support 1 byte callbacks
18:59<DaleStan>Yes. All callbacks other than 10..3F with a low byte of 00..3F are forbidden.
19:00<DaleStan>CraKinShOt: Grepping the source for Callback should give you a good clue. Probably something like result = GetCallback(This, that, otherthing);
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>so valid ranges are x40..xFF
19:00<Lakie>Not quite.
19:00<Lakie>0x140 - 0x7FFF
19:00<DaleStan>You're confusing callback IDs and result range.
19:01<Lakie>Oh, sorry.
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>x being 01 to FF
19:01<CraKinShOt>I've only had a quick look, I assume it lets the GRF request (or set) information from the game.
19:01<Lakie>It requires code to process that 'request'.
19:01<DaleStan>Backwards. The game requests info from the GRF.
19:02<CraKinShOt>right that makes more sense. So the game asks the GRF how it should render {something}?
19:03<CraKinShOt>I'm just wondering whether you can tack on new stuff onto that
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, the grf will provide a list of sprites somewhere, and the callback would give the index within that list
19:03<DaleStan>More often, "What is the new capacity for this vehicle?" "What color should this vehicle be?" "What string should I display under $CIRCUMSTANCE?"
19:03<Lakie>I guess the sprite var in action0 could be interpreted that way, isn't it more like, the game askes the grf for which sprite it should use?
19:04<Lakie>(Or group of sprites), my understanding of how grfs are internally handled is quite vague though
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>then you need to expose some variables to the callback, like the signal state
19:04<DaleStan>The sprite request is a callback in general programming terms, but not in GRF/NFO terms.
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, probably would need introducing an action1/2/3 chain for signals
19:06<DaleStan>Already there. The 2/3 part, anyway.
19:07<CraKinShOt>Well just in general terms, if I wanted to add on several additional signal states the mechanism could handle it?
19:08<CraKinShOt>from the looks of the signal callback its all set in stone
19:08<DaleStan>Callbacks can handle anything that can is computable with neither loops or recursion.
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>CraKinShOt: you would pass that state information in soem newgrf variables, which the callback would resolve in a varaction2
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19:10<DaleStan>What is defined is set in stone. What is undefined may be defined in any useful way that does not duplicate information.
19:10<CraKinShOt>right okay, just so long as I know its posible, is enough for now. I can properly research later
19:11<CraKinShOt>I can code the mechanism with set graphics for the time being then add on general support with grf
19:13<DaleStan>I recommend that your research start with using the current NFO spec to do something productive.
19:14<DaleStan>Trying to define /any/ new NFO thing is not recommended for anyone. At all. But it's more likely to go well if you've either used NFO or contributed substantially to an NFO parser.
19:16<Lakie>Hmm... I'll be honest, looking at it when I was writing the newobjects code was a completely different ball game to writing nfo, DaleStan.
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19:17<Lakie>That said, I'd only really wrote vehicle nfo which is quite different from the house style nfo I was reusing and adapting.
19:19<Lakie>I suppose it wasn't too bad adding callback 36 and some vars for newobjects looking back on things.
19:20<CraKinShOt>I think its a case of "the documentation makes it look more complicated than it really is"
19:23<Lakie>Rubidium: only other feature I miss from TTDPatch would be the custom bridge heads, but I imagine thats like enhanced tunnels, come up with a way of doing it which isn't hacky?
19:25<CraKinShOt>Action 6 looks interesting
19:26<DaleStan>Accursedly so, in fact.
19:27<CraKinShOt>No good then?
19:27<DaleStan>No good for what?
19:28<CraKinShOt>Well its cursed (bad) so people shouldn't use it?
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>"come up with a way of doing it which isn't hacky?" <- that's about it
19:28<DaleStan>It's like a goto. Use when required.
19:29<DaleStan>I was actually referencing the Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>the last attempt on custom bridge heads failed on signals
19:30<DaleStan>There are times when 6 is the correct way to get the job done. But it makes life difficult for everyone trying to generate or statically parse NFO.
19:30*DaleStan is away now.
19:31<CraKinShOt>Well thinking about it, probably not needed for my goal anyway. Better to simply have all the cases stored in the grf, rather than modifying a sprite.
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19:41<CraKinShOt>okay, so to recap... use a bit in the tile to specify that the tile has enhanced signal information. Then a HashMap to convert tileId to the Extra signal information struct.
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>CraKinShOt: sounds like a plan, but possibly you should reserve two bits
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>because there are two signals on tiles with diagonal tracks
19:46<CraKinShOt>aye, makes sense.
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19:51<CraKinShOt>Well I'm knacked. Shall retire and give the coding a shot tomorrow. night all.
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 19 00:00:49 2009