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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-10-13

---Logopened Tue Oct 13 00:00:03 2009
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02:43<boekabart>a great morning, afternoon, evening or night to everyone!
02:46<planetmaker>moin moin #openttd
02:47<boekabart>That 'signals in tunnel' patch - does that have trunk-potential?
02:49<planetmaker>not any which exists
02:49<planetmaker>but I'm no dev
02:50<boekabart>I'm talking about the one that fakes signals every N tiles
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03:01<planetmaker>boekabart: me, too
03:02<planetmaker>that's a very hackish solution
03:02<planetmaker>and there's so far no good one
03:02<boekabart>it seems to me to be - but then again, isn't the whole way trains go through tunnels a very hackish solution in ttd?
03:03<boekabart>yet it works like a charm
03:03<planetmaker>without signals. yes
03:03<planetmaker>without some sort of 3D information a clean implementation of signals therein is probably difficult.
03:03<planetmaker>Or you'd have to come up with some elegant solution
03:04<boekabart>I mean - it seems to be a solution that perfectly matches the way tunnels and bridges are done...
03:05<planetmaker>to me it doesn't
03:06<planetmaker>it's easy to say that tunnels & bridges are tracks between A and B.
03:06<planetmaker>to assume anything else about the track than a plain connection is daring
03:07<boekabart>I don't see how it's that much more daring, really. To clarify: I haven't looked at the patch code yet so I can't tell whether it's programmed ugly or not
03:07<boekabart>My first impression was also 'ewww'
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03:09<planetmaker>having a simple connection between A and B allows development in all directions and all kind of (clean) solutions
03:10<planetmaker>complicating matters by adding a hackish additional assumption to those tracks won't help any clean future solution as backward compatibility has to be maintained.
03:10<planetmaker>from what I gather what goes into trunk and what not, that's a clear NO for that kind of patch
03:12<planetmaker>(and if it was up to me, I'd decide the same way :-P - not that I have a good solution, though )
03:13<boekabart>you actually might have a good reason there - the need to support savegames made with this option when porting to a nice solution
03:13<planetmaker>having signals on bridges / in tunnels would be certainly nice, though, too
03:13<boekabart>but a question does come to mind: why doesn't openttd have signals on bridgehead/tunnel-entrances yet
03:13<planetmaker>they're part of the tunnel / bridge, I guess
03:14<planetmaker>same question probably: why aren't ther custom bridge heads / tunnel entrances
03:14<boekabart>well apparently his patch does find room in the maparray to place them
03:14<planetmaker>answer: no one implemented it glitch-free
03:14<planetmaker>the map array is not the major obstacle afaik. yes
03:15<planetmaker>probably the patch takes the ... what signal density? and assumes the same in the tunnel.
03:15<planetmaker>what, if you change it? what happens in multiplayer?
03:19<Rubidium>not much, IIRC they can't crash in the tunnel, but that might be another of those patches (besides the desyncing and such, but who cares about that?)
03:23<planetmaker>I have to say: no desync in ages. That was different about two years ago.
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03:25<boekabart>so Rubidium, you're still a dev right, do you agree with planetmaker's thinking?
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03:46<planetmaker>boekabart: read his comment again and judge yourself ;-)
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03:49<boekabart>i thought the 'not much' was about 'what happens in MP' :)
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03:54<Rubidium>that making a quick hack causes lots of problems later on, yes... I agree with planetmaker on that
03:55<planetmaker>probably for other reasons, though ;-)
03:55<Rubidium>that's amongst others why I stopped my (stab-in-the-dark) OS X fixes
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03:58<Terkhen>good morning
03:58<Rubidium>good moaning :)
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07:21<boekabart>Heh, what about the tunnels under sea patch that doesn't require deep water? Real smart I think, if the UI is done right. devs like it?
07:22<dihedral>you think the devs are unaware of such patch?
07:23<boekabart>they probably never visit the forum :) of course I don't think that
07:23<boekabart>just wondering
07:23<dihedral>did you try asking google?
07:23<dihedral>i am sure someone on irc asked that question
07:23<dihedral>and some websites host logs of irc
07:24<dihedral>s/irc/this irc channel/
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07:25<dihedral>uh - perhaps they might have even commented in the forums something with regards to the patch
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07:54<boekabart>dihedral: not a single dev commented on the chunnel patch in the forum...
07:55<dihedral>ah, you are specifically talking about chunnels
07:55<boekabart>yes, shorter than ' the tunnels under sea patch that doesn't require deep water'
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07:55<dihedral>i recall seeing remarks on that
07:57<boekabart>google says not ;)
07:57<dihedral>google says i have never seen a comment on chunnels?
07:58<dihedral>wow - google seems to know quite a bit more than i had thought
07:58<boekabart>" <Yexo> but usually there are ver good reasons for not doing so "
07:58<boekabart>(in very general, but near mentioning chunnel patch)
07:59<Yexo>personally I find that patch one big hack (and haven't even looked at the code yet)
08:00<dihedral>there - i've seen another one... perhaps google tells you that yexo never said that line!
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09:12<Toby>anyone i could ask some questions?
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09:17<dihedral>if there aint no question, nobody aint gonna answer
09:17<@Belugas>is that a question already?
09:18<dihedral>hello Sir Belugas
09:18<Toby>no not yet
09:18<Toby>my KIs arent working
09:19<Toby>it says that i need to download them
09:19<dihedral>in english they are called AI
09:19<Toby>yeah AI, sorry
09:19<dihedral>did you check the 'online content' button?
09:19<dihedral>lower left in the main menu
09:19<@Belugas>Move your lips togueter, give them a motin forward. then suck the air from them. that will end up with a ...
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09:20<dihedral>Toby, things you should read: README files,,
09:22<Toby>i´m already reading
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09:54<planetmaker>[15:52] <dh> [15:19:31] did you check the 'online content' button? <-- follow that advice
09:56<@Belugas>check a button? or press a checkbox?
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09:57<Muxy>someone talked about Kiss ?
10:02*Belugas licks Muxy
10:02*Muxy jump to the plafond
10:02*Muxy jumps, jumps
10:06<dihedral>planetmaker, odd nick you have for me ;-)
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm... need an interesting game...
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>i tried out Biing! again, but i always go bankrupt after a few days...
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10:22<planetmaker>dihedral: there was no need to highlight you ;-)
10:25<planetmaker>hehe :-P
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11:56<DJNekkid>hi gyus ... i were wondering, why cant i articulate IDs above x7F or xFF ? (i cant remember the limit), i mean, i can do everything else above xFF, i can "only" add a number to it's "80" ... i.e.: articulate ID x50, 50 80 <low> <high> ... could i just not do 50 81 <low> <high> if i wanted to articulate ID x14F ? (x50+xFF)
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12:13<frosch123>DJNekkid: "The callback return is interpreted as the ID of the vehicle to add. If 80 is added to the ID, the vehicle will be reversed (as if Ctrl was held while bought)." <- that's the only issue
12:18<DJNekkid>so, if i make a spriteset that is reverse, it should be pretty much ok?
12:19<frosch123>no, currently it only uses 7 bits for the id
12:20<frosch123>there is no real decision how to solve that: either by version 8 (no fast solution), or by adding some other flag to some weird variable, ...
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>is anyone actively developing grf version 8?
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12:42<Rubidium>dihedral: suggesting ? That's like suggesting
12:46<frosch123>are the tt-ms guys banned from tt-forums?
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12:48<Rubidium>frosch123: unlikely
12:48<frosch123>ah, the email of "admin" makes him known :)
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r17770 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (basque.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: basque - 20 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 21 changes by nglekhoi
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14:13<frosch123>planetmaker, dihedral: do you see some splash screen ( ) at ottd start?
14:14<frosch123>if you do, do you also see it when using a 32bpp blitter? and is the background black or transparent?
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14:33<fonsinchen>From the wiki:
14:33<fonsinchen>Comments for functions go in the .c file.
14:33<fonsinchen>Comments for inlines go in the .h file.
14:34<fonsinchen>Is that still correct? I see a lot of documentation in cargopacket.h
14:34<fonsinchen>(not only for inlines)
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14:35<frosch123>it is correct for C style functions without class scope. wrt. classes - no idea :p
14:37<fonsinchen>It should be clarified. I'll go with the predominant style in cargopacket.h and my own style of common sense now and document things in the header. After all, anyone using the class is looking at the header first.
14:38<frosch123>if you use ctags, you might always look at the source
14:39<SpComb>the header seems like the correct place for docs for me
14:39<Alberth>or if you kind of know the class, you also skip the header
14:39<SpComb>some people read headers
14:39<Alberth>SpComb: in that case, you may be better off reading the generated docs
14:40<SpComb>not always
14:40<frosch123>i think i prefer documentation in the source
14:41*Alberth agrees
14:42<Alberth>also makes maintenance easier, as you can read the code to check whether the parm is still needed etc
14:43*Rhamphoryncus installs openttd (+opengfx) for the first time. Weeeeeeee!
14:44<fonsinchen>OK, then I'll put the docs in the cargopacket.c
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14:50<surfdue>hey guys
14:51<surfdue>I was going to email but this is here already so no need to
14:51<surfdue>has anyone brought up roller coaster tycoon?
14:51<frosch123>try #rct
14:52<surfdue>no one
14:52<Alberth>you just did
14:52<surfdue>I thought people here would be atleast abit nice.
14:52<frosch123>try TrueBrain
14:52<surfdue>what is that frosch123
14:53<Alberth>afaik RCT is a different game than OpenTTD :)
14:53<surfdue>Of course same engine
14:53<Alberth>maybe a loooong time ago
14:54<@Belugas>SAME ENGINE?
14:54<@Belugas>Same engine? are you sure?
14:54<surfdue>i think that ttd would be a great start for an open rct you dont?
14:55<surfdue>It's 99% written in x86 assembler/machine code (yes, really!), with a small amount of C code used to interface to MS Windows and DirectX.
14:56<Alberth>we know :)
14:56<surfdue>i know you know :]
14:56<Alberth>you may be able to re-use some bits and pieces at best
14:57<Alberth>(mainly the graphic engine, I imagine.) Of ocurse ours doesn't rotate, so there it already goes wrong.
14:58<Alberth>I believe your best bet is to use OpenTTD as a source of inspiration
14:58<surfdue>i dont want it to
14:59<surfdue>ifact the point of it is to make a c++ and online version
14:59<surfdue>using intensive php + ajax/jquery/javascript
14:59<Zuu>Unless you have the rct code somewhat legally I would suggest starating from scratch.
14:59<surfdue>we made a game similar to it already using online only and are looking for ideas
14:59*Alberth wishes surfdue very much luck
14:59<@Belugas>surfdue, the portions that are "the same" are not big enough to start the same project. BY FAR
14:59<Lakie>I thought RCT and TTD's engines where different
14:59<Lakie>Thus OpenTTD (which is vastly different to TTD now) would be different
15:00<surfdue>Belugas, well we would actually just base it off of what Alberth was saying parts and bits. We want to turn it into a facebook/social application and allow onlin eplay
15:00<frosch123>you started with rct, now you are at facebook :o
15:00*frosch123 heads to the suggestion forum
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15:01*Zuu heads to forum #32
15:01<@Belugas>i love the "we" part of it ;)
15:01<frosch123>you know the number? you are doomed
15:02<Zuu>Before ff3 that was how you had to do.
15:02<frosch123>really? why?
15:03<surfdue>Belugas, would you play an online similar version of RCT
15:04<frosch123>belugas would play everything if he would not have to work in turn
15:05<Alberth>while I would love playing rct, I will not do that online, I don't see why playing it locally at one's own machine is not good enough.
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15:06<Alberth>hai andy
15:07<surfdue>support for all OS
15:07<andythenorth>hi hi
15:08<frosch123>hmm, andy is also an osx guy
15:08<andythenorth>just reading this
15:08<surfdue>hey andy
15:08<frosch123>[20:15] <frosch123> planetmaker, dihedral: do you see some splash screen ( ) at ottd start?
15:08<frosch123>[20:16] <frosch123> if you do, do you also see it when using a 32bpp blitter? and is the background black or transparent?
15:08<surfdue>andythenorth, you play rct?
15:08<Alberth>waste of band-width, dropping connections, laggy response
15:08<Alberth>security risks
15:10<@Belugas>surfdue, i don't care about rct. i just play ottd with my son and i don't have time nor energy to go foward on deving
15:10<@Belugas>so... good argument ;)
15:10<surfdue>Belugas, what if i said i have chris's contact info ;]
15:11<andythenorth>Chris Sawyer's
15:11<surfdue>perhaps i havnt tested it
15:11<andythenorth>I know some people who used to work at Microprose
15:11<andythenorth>They fixed my windows
15:11<andythenorth>And coded a flash game for me
15:11<andythenorth>They didn't do TTD though
15:12<andythenorth>TTD was released when Microprose were in Chipping Sodbury, which I have cycled through occasionally
15:12<andythenorth>My friend keeps a horse near there
15:12<surfdue>andythenorth, so you a mac guy
15:12<andythenorth>Anyway, the microwave beeps and summons me away
15:12<andythenorth>Before I it done yet? :P
15:13<surfdue>andythenorth, we are thinking of making an ORCT
15:13*Rubidium hopes that we doesn't include me
15:13<andythenorth>So, not done then?
15:14<Alberth>Rubidium: surfdue always speaks in 'we' terms.
15:14<andythenorth>Anyone know when it will be done?
15:14<surfdue>andythenorth, orct?
15:14<surfdue>Rubidium, we as in me and a few developers not you.
15:15<Alberth>andythenorth: he has not even started yet
15:15<andythenorth>I mean 'it' not rct :P
15:15<dihedral>frosch123, i'll check tomorrow
15:15<andythenorth>Anyway, if it's not done, I'm going AFK until it's done
15:15<surfdue>andythenorth, if i started today.. probably a few months
15:15*andythenorth afk
15:16<surfdue>how did you guys get around the copyrights with the sounds make your own?
15:16<frosch123>thanks dih
15:17*Rubidium points surfdue to the wiki and 'the list' to surfdue
15:17<surfdue>Rubidium, point whats the link
15:17<@Belugas>[15:10] <surfdue> Belugas, what if i said i have chris's contact info ;] <- ask him to do it, and don't tell him about us!
15:18<surfdue>Belugas, he most likely knows?
15:18<@Belugas>ho yeah, he does...
15:18<@Belugas>big time
15:18<+glx>and dislikes
15:19<surfdue>he said he dosnt like ottd?
15:19-!-PeterT [] has joined #openttd
15:20<dihedral>the agency said that
15:20<@Belugas>big tim eindeed
15:20<@Belugas>we do not share his "vision"
15:20<dihedral>uh jeah
15:20*dihedral recalles the phone chatsw
15:20<surfdue>did they try to take it down
15:20<andythenorth>what was the vision?
15:21<@Belugas>only cs knows
15:21<@Belugas>surfdue, no. i think it's on legal grey zone...
15:21<dihedral>and the 'vision' was 'completed' or 'perfected' with ttd :-D
15:21<dihedral>+ there is nothing to sue
15:22<Zuu>frosch123: To distingush between the visited pages that show up when I start typing the two first letters of tt-forums. Then I just selected the right number of those there to get to the right subforum.
15:22<Zuu>29 for General, 33 for Dev, 65 for NoAI etc.
15:22<andythenorth>I bet his vision included larger ships. He just didn't have the time I have on my hands...
15:23<@Belugas>i guess his vision went into Locomotion
15:23<@Belugas>ho my... he loves realism!
15:24<dihedral>and seemingly his vision for RCT never reached a state he was happy with :-P
15:24<surfdue>well if anyone is a developer or graphics designer or sound engineer or is just interested in helping let me know. I want to get a list of people interested in ORCT
15:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17771 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Codechange: use the 'StringID' function instead of the 'const char *' function + custom code to resolve the 'const char *' from the 'StringID'
15:25<dihedral>surfdue, which version of rct?
15:25<surfdue>dihedral, either 1 or 2. But mostly the best of both
15:25<Zuu>surfdue: What is the problem with RCT? Low resolution? Problem to run >xp? constraints in the game?
15:26<dihedral>because in the early versions, one single wagon had over 6k sprites
15:26<surfdue>Zuu, all of those plus online and multiplayer
15:26<Lakie>RCT + multiplayer?
15:26<PeterT>frosch123/planetmaker: did you get my e-mail about translating?
15:26<surfdue>dihedral, we would limit the amount of spirits with limited rotation
15:26-!-Muxy [] has joined #openttd
15:27<dihedral>PeterT, translation of?
15:27<surfdue>Lakie, Yes! Allow your friends local or via internet to help you setup and build parks
15:27<dihedral>surfdue, then use the original data first, and see what it looks like
15:27<Lakie>You mean destroy
15:27<dihedral>before you get a graphics guy
15:27<PeterT>I sent an email
15:27<surfdue>also additional options that were lacked in rct1 and 2 fireworks, parades, etc. Including OPEN/CLOSE everyday like a normal park
15:27-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:28<surfdue>dihedral, are you a graphics guy?
15:28<PeterT>dihedral is a translator for german, I think
15:28<Zuu>dihedral is dihedral I think
15:29<Seberoth>Wow realy?
15:29*Alberth agrees
15:29<dihedral>PeterT, i dont think you want a list of what i have done so far :-P
15:30<PeterT>Well, I know about patching and translating
15:30<PeterT>and I know you did a ton for wwottdgd
15:30<dihedral>uh - and i annoyed some devs a lot too
15:31<dihedral>dont think they were all too happy about that
15:32<surfdue>how many spirits does a train for example or a car have in ottd
15:32<Zuu>spirits? I don't know..
15:32<dihedral>uh - depends... the budhist set ... ufff
15:33<Zuu>Probably you meant sprites
15:33<dihedral>less than 10
15:33<surfdue>dihedral, is ottd realyl choppy or animated?
15:34<surfdue>why dont they just use transioners instead of so many sprites for example on a roller coaster you rraelly only need 10 per car becuase it can turn and tilt and flip the image?
15:34<Zuu>turning and tilting would require hardware accelleration and possible OpenGL or DirectX for that.
15:35<surfdue>most modern pcs have that
15:35<surfdue>my netbook can do that
15:35<Zuu>Take a look on the problems that the OpenGL attempts for OpenTTD had.
15:35<Alberth>yep, except not at the time of rct
15:35<surfdue>Zuu, which ones
15:35<Zuu>Take a look on the forums
15:35<Zuu>Use the search function over there.
15:36<surfdue>Zuu, tell me, otherwise i dont see a problem. It depends on the developers and how they approch it.
15:36<dihedral>surfdue, which platforms do you want to support?
15:36<Zuu>Searching on OpenGL on the OpenTTD forums should yeild quite some results.
15:36<surfdue>dihedral, windows xp vista 7, mac, and compiled versions for linux/unix
15:36<andythenorth>dihedral is actuall CS
15:36<andythenorth>actually grrr
15:36<Zuu>I don't know OpenGL myself but over the years I have seen a few different attempts all which had problems. A common problem is artifacts on zoomed out views.
15:37<frosch123>andythenorth: Andel is
15:37<surfdue>Zuu, see thats aproblem with the programming not opengl :]
15:37<surfdue>it goes into the saying you can only taste what you eat.
15:37<surfdue>aka. the more you put in the more you taste, and visa versa
15:38<dihedral>i wish you good luck surfdue
15:38<surfdue>the more programming and detections they put in the least amount of problems, its either program more or design more graphics :p
15:38<dihedral>you'll need it :-D
15:38<surfdue>dihedral, yatta yatta
15:38<andythenorth>frosch123: Andel is Simon Foster
15:38<Lakie>From what I've seen of OpenGL so far, it doesn't look too friendly
15:38<Lakie>Although I've heard DirectX is even more unfriendly...
15:39<surfdue>Lakie, are you saying ottd dosnt use opengl?
15:39<Zuu>OpenTTD does not use OpenGL.
15:39<frosch123>oh, so Andel: what's you opinion about opengfx?
15:39<surfdue>btw Zuu the game will be written in JS/php for the website, which supports turn tilt and flip
15:39<Lakie>I wouldn't know, I think it uses SDL?
15:40<Zuu>SDL is one of the video backends that OpenTTD supports/uses.
15:40<dihedral>surfdue, i'll refrase... you need way more than just good luck :-P
15:40*andythenorth I'm spartacus
15:40<surfdue>dihedral, wanna see something
15:40<dihedral>sure, let me see
15:40<surfdue>dihedral, similar platform
15:41<dihedral>i see a flash movie
15:41<surfdue>signin with my account
15:41<surfdue>actually just make ur own
15:41<surfdue>it takes 3 seconds
15:41<dihedral>i dont wanna make an account
15:41<surfdue>ok fine done. :]
15:42<dihedral>you could do that with flex......
15:42<dihedral>but js + php ???
15:42<dihedral>you gotta be kidding me
15:42<surfdue>Lol its java js and php
15:42<surfdue>dihedral, why would i wanna use flex or flash
15:42<surfdue>too complicated
15:42<surfdue>that would take forever to make a flash version of this.
15:42<surfdue>of rct
15:43<surfdue>dihedral, how long would a flex version of rct take . 3 times the amount it took with assembler :P
15:44<dihedral>so now you do not just want to write it in java, js and php, you want to do it in less time than it would take CS to write it in assembler?
15:44<surfdue>dihedral, no im interested in knowing
15:44<surfdue>you code flex?
15:45<dihedral>hoho - NO
15:45<dihedral>i do non frontend stuff ^^
15:45<dihedral>and flex can be a bitch
15:46*Sacro is learning flex now :D
15:46<Sacro>and bioson
15:46<surfdue>Sacro, from what you know flex and a version of rct how long
15:46-!-Muxy [] has quit [Quit: PACKET_CLIENT_QUIT]
15:47<Sacro>surfdue: uh, what?
15:47<surfdue>how long
15:47<dihedral>D looks interesting ^^
15:48<dihedral>Sacro, surfdue has the odd impression that you could judge how long it would take you to write rct 1 or 2 in flex
15:48<surfdue>1 year
15:48<surfdue>15 years
15:48<surfdue>200 year
15:49<andythenorth>can't you do it in Wordpress?
15:49<dihedral>surfdue, guestimates suck
15:49<Zuu>Would you work 40 hour a week or how much time each week would you work?
15:49<andythenorth>or Plone?
15:49<andythenorth>Oh sorry, wrong irc
15:49<surfdue>Zuu, 40
15:49<surfdue>andythenorth, probably wp not plone
15:49<dihedral>andythenorth, :-P
15:49<dihedral>surfdue, from what you have posted so far, i would guess you are 15 years old
15:50<Zuu>(i mean work as in working on rct)
15:50<surfdue>dihedral, no 18.
15:50<dihedral>or have VERY little experience in coding
15:50<surfdue>Zuu,40 hours working on rct spare time per week
15:50<andythenorth>surfdue: you are however brave ;)
15:50<TrueBrain>frosch123: an hour late, but can I still play the nice guy?
15:50<dihedral>oh - even less experience than i had thought
15:50<surfdue>dihedral, i program in 8 different programming languages most web languages or "scripting languages"
15:51<andythenorth>surfdue: ah, but can you write nfo?
15:51<dihedral>and that makes you experienced??
15:51<andythenorth>I can, and I'm off to prove it now
15:51<surfdue>andythenorth, info?
15:51<dihedral>just because you can make 10 different vehicles move, does not mean you are a good driver ;-)
15:51<Alberth>andythenorth: ROFL!
15:51<surfdue>dihedral, well experience is rated per person and based on the individuals basis of experience
15:51<frosch123>TrueBrain: what, one hour spamming already :o
15:51<TrueBrain>yes ... that is why I ask ;)
15:51<andythenorth>dihedral: I assume that comment about 10 vehicles was aimed at my nfo skills?
15:52<dihedral>that was aimed at surfdue
15:52<andythenorth>hey my nfo DIDN'T BREAK THE GAME
15:53<surfdue>dihedral, i gues your jelous ;]
15:53<dihedral>ah... nope
15:53<surfdue>dihedral, you dont design or code aparently?? what do you do
15:53<surfdue>dihedral, instead of talking s**t to someone with programming experience that could benefit this project or an ORCT idea, start talking about your own downfalls.
15:53<andythenorth>surfdue: don't poke that dog - try learning nfo instead
15:54<surfdue>andythenorth, what is nfo the graphics part of it
15:54<dihedral>surfdue, i don't play an ace if a 2 is enough
15:55<surfdue>i dont play cards.
15:55<andythenorth> baroque
15:55<surfdue>dihedral, some games Ace is the highest card, some its not. So that dosnt make sense to me
15:55<andythenorth>nfo is hex
15:55<surfdue>andythenorth, what drives the graphics on the individual vehicles, buildings etc.
15:56<surfdue>why was rotate not built in ottd btw do you know
15:56<andythenorth>anyway code doesn't get written by participating in irc slap fights
15:56<andythenorth>except when it does
15:56<dihedral>surfdue, search the forum, google...
15:56<dihedral>it's all there
15:56<dihedral>you just gotta read
15:56<andythenorth>no but really I didn't break the game with my update to FIRS. Where's my cookie?
15:56<surfdue>dihedral, if you dont know, dont answer. i wanna speak to alive person
15:56<dihedral>but i guess you are too experienced to know such stuff
15:57<dihedral>TrueBrain, can we keep him?
15:57<andythenorth>oh gah, who is op? how does kick work?
15:58<surfdue>why would you kick me im not the one insulting
15:58<surfdue>or that dosnt know what hes talking about
15:58<dihedral>who said he wanted to kick YOU? :-P
15:58<andythenorth>surfdue: I think it would just be kinder to you.
15:58<andythenorth>No I do
15:59<dihedral>andythenorth, /ignore ^^
15:59<andythenorth>I think it's fairer
15:59<surfdue>hope none of you have iphones
15:59<surfdue>i mean andythenorth and dihedral
15:59<dihedral>and why would that matter?
16:00<surfdue>it wouldnt less u have it
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16:00<andythenorth>dihedral: if I send you 20 nfo files, can you just finish them for me, thanks :)
16:00<andythenorth>it will distract you from picking on the newbie
16:00<dihedral>and i connect directly to irc, and do not use some open wireless accesspoint and .....
16:00<dihedral>andythenorth, :-P
16:01<dihedral>no it would not :-P
16:01<surfdue>im not a newbie..
16:01<dihedral>surfdue, let me be kind, i think open rct would be a great idea
16:01<surfdue>dihedral, i dont need your advice.
16:01<dihedral>however, i think the coding languages you have chosen suck
16:01<+glx>but it's not the right place to talk about it :)
16:02<andythenorth>where has FooBar hidden all the strings?
16:02<andythenorth>for FIRS I mean, not the whole world
16:02<dihedral>the cat took them
16:03<andythenorth>no found them
16:03<TrueBrain>dihedral: here, now you hear it from someone else! :P
16:04<dihedral>php is way too slow for something like that
16:04<dihedral>js.... c'mon
16:04<dihedral>browers will not even let you consume that amount of memory
16:04<dihedral>+ after 60 seconds of execution time, you need to ask the browser to continue running the js script
16:04<dihedral>in fact... every 60 seconds
16:05<dihedral>(not regarding any performance)
16:05-!-welshdragon [~markjones@] has joined #openttd
16:06<dihedral>it's cracked :-(
16:07<andythenorth>hey FIRS supports translations already :)
16:08-!-Seberoth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:11<dihedral> <- :-D
16:13<@Belugas>surfdue, from a guy who admit he does not know about coding, i think the words "[15:34] <surfdue> why dont they just use transioners instead of so..." is not really meaningful. Please refrain for posing judgmentsm in the futur
16:14<surfdue>Belugas, i dont understand what you mean?
16:15<@Belugas>i am quoting you, you are expressing a judgemnt.
16:15<@Belugas>a bad one.
16:15<@Belugas>"Why don't they..." there is a reason for everything
16:15<@Belugas>don't judge
16:15<@Belugas>dig and search, understand, THEN judge
16:16<surfdue>Belugas, you cut off what i said so how do i know what you are talking about
16:16<planetmaker>[22:13] <andythenorth> [22:02:19] for FIRS I mean, not the whole world <-- where they belong: in the language files :-)
16:17<planetmaker>and good evening :-)
16:17<andythenorth>hi hi
16:17<surfdue>"<surfdue> why dont they just use transioners instead of so many sprites for example on a roller coaster you rraelly only need 10 per car becuase it can turn and tilt and flip the image?"
16:17<andythenorth>didn't we discuss a kick?
16:17<surfdue>Belugas, OTTD dosnt do this, the original TTD does, why are you talking about this?
16:17<surfdue>the ottd devs are doing the right thing?
16:18*planetmaker smells an annoying person
16:18<+glx>we do it like TTD
16:18<surfdue>No you do it better then ttd, isnt that the point?
16:18<@Belugas>planetmaker, indeed, and it's not Yorick, for once
16:18<planetmaker>indeed. He learnt ;-)
16:18<+glx>surfdue: we do it like TTD, many sprites per vehicle
16:19<surfdue>Belugas, what you said made absolutely no sense. You guys really need to stop picking all i came in here for was to discuss posible involvement with OTTD and a possible ORCT
16:19<surfdue>glx, i cant suggest an alternative way to do it when i remake rct or is that not allowed?
16:19<@Belugas>ok... suggestion: if you like gong on with that RCT stuff, get on the proper room
16:19<@Belugas>hoo... there isnone?
16:19<@Belugas>create one, please
16:19<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17772 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h network/network_chat_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3264]: CJK languages don't have spaces, so for adding newlines (multi line strings) we need to (properly) handle the case when there are no spaces instead of truncating the string.
16:20<surfdue>Belugas, please read the first part "discuss possible involvement with OTT"
16:20<Noldo>CJK languages?
16:20<+glx>chinese japanes korean
16:20<planetmaker>Noldo: asian...
16:20<frosch123>chinese japanese korean
16:20-!-Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
16:21<Noldo>don't have spaces?
16:21<+glx>they don't need spaces
16:21<planetmaker>but they need complicated input themes
16:21<Noldo>lucky bastards
16:22<andythenorth>grrr....FIRS has *way* too many industries for the mini map to be sane. Who's idea was that :|
16:22<@Belugas>surfdue, do you see anything that could, from far or near, suggest RTC is linked to that topic?
16:23<frosch123>andythenorth: make them close faster, users are always happy about that
16:23<surfdue>Belugas, the engine that OTTD uses can be utilized in parts to create it, so yes. And the fact I am a developer.
16:23-!-Terkhen [] has joined #openttd
16:23<frosch123>or do you mean the legend?
16:23<andythenorth>mostly the legend yes
16:23<andythenorth>My fault of course
16:23<andythenorth>And I had to draw all the bloody things
16:23<Zuu>Personally unless I would know the TTD engine well I would restart from scratch.
16:24-!-Grelouk [] has joined #openttd
16:24*frosch123 would really be interested what part of ottd could be used for a browser based rct
16:24-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
16:24<surfdue>Zuu, perhaps, it would be nice to rip the graphics engine out though taht will get the ball rolling, as CS said, he took transport tycoon and made the vehicles into coasters and made RCT.
16:25<surfdue>frosch123, not the browser version
16:25<surfdue>Zuu, not litterally but objectively yes
16:25<@Belugas>surfdue, OTTD is open source. take the part that you want, create your new project, create your own room then go. IF you want to help improve the current engine AND STILL KEEP THE SAME FEELLING, you're welcome
16:25<Zuu>surfdue: With the big difference that CS knew his engine code already.
16:25<surfdue>Zuu, correct.
16:26<Lakie>RCT thinks quite differently to TTD engine wise. One is 2D and one is "3D" in its logic.
16:26<surfdue>Belugas, your like rampaging. I am just talking about things like you are, as you can see I have a room now #rct :] Am I not allowed to talk here sir?
16:26<surfdue>Lakie, you mean rct is the 3d one right?
16:26<surfdue>Lakie, or "3d sorry"
16:27<surfdue>Lakie, you mean in the sense it can rotate
16:27<Lakie>It requires different logic and handling.
16:27<surfdue>Lakie, the original ttd couldnt?
16:27<Lakie>In how its stored and processed
16:27<surfdue>or could it sorry
16:27<surfdue>im just wondering about that
16:27<Lakie>the bridges and tunnels (the 3d elements of TTD) are more hacks
16:28<Zuu>TTD couldn't rotate the view.
16:28-!-Terkhen [] has quit []
16:28<surfdue>just wondering never played the original never interested me that much, or locomotion RCT was the big one for me
16:28*Rubidium ponders suggesting to install 'pivot' for rotating the view
16:29-!-PeterT [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:29<Lakie>Heh, problem is 2D sprites tend not to rotate so well, Rubidium. ;)
16:29<andythenorth>Rubidium: I just hold my macbook up and turn it.
16:29<andythenorth>It does tend to make the mp3s skip though
16:30<surfdue>Rubidium, that would be funny.. lol
16:30<Lakie>Why would it make mp3s skip?
16:30<Rubidium>Lakie: that's absolutely no problem for 'pivot'
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16:31<andythenorth>Lakie: motion sensor on the drive...
16:31<andythenorth>depends how much rotating you want of course
16:31<dihedral>too little cache ey?
16:31<andythenorth>10', no skip
16:31<dihedral>surfdue, rct 1 and 2 used up to 7k sprites per wagon
16:31<dihedral>there was no image tilting, etc.
16:31<andythenorth>cache size could be specified in 'amount of rotation before mp3s skip'?
16:32<dihedral>ttd did the same, just there was no need for more than 10 sprites per wagon
16:32<dihedral>it's even less
16:32<dihedral>openttd uses the same aproach
16:33<surfdue>dihedral, so basically if opengl or directx was possible we could utilize 10 or less and use tilting built into the graphics processing
16:34<dihedral>then you should use different images
16:34<dihedral>i.e. not 2d sprites
16:34<surfdue>dihedral, transport tycoon dosnt use tilting at all, the land si flat?
16:34<dihedral>they are sprites!
16:34<andythenorth>FIRS FIRS FIRS: 8 done, 32 to go....back to the nfo
16:34<dihedral>it's all 2d
16:34<surfdue>i would like to make 1 image for the entire thing
16:34<surfdue>so if there is 10 spirits make it train-sprites.jpg
16:34<dihedral>+ if you want to go opengl, php and js are not your language
16:34<surfdue>for example
16:35<surfdue>dihedral, i also program in c and c++
16:35<surfdue>and perl..
16:35<surfdue>but that dosnt help lo
16:35<dihedral>you then want some modeling
16:35<surfdue>why yuck ?
16:35<@Belugas>does not make sens, you'd need indexing for the part that is to be displayed
16:35<dihedral>and then you cannot use the openttd engine for graphics
16:35<surfdue>dihedral, i can program it in bash and ladder :P
16:35<@Belugas>think it's faster to have one inmage per veiw
16:36<surfdue>Belugas, you would load all the images into memory
16:36<Alberth>but that breaks at bridges etc
16:36<andythenorth>surfdue: try programming it in brainfuck
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16:36<@Belugas>memory is niot the problem
16:36<dihedral>surfdue, dont try to brag with langauges... you have > 100 people in this channel
16:36<dihedral>you might dig a ditch depper than you want it
16:36<surfdue>is that a real language.. lol
16:36<@Belugas>live image manipulatin is a tedious process
16:36<surfdue>dihedral, im not bragging with languages.
16:36<dihedral>andythenorth, i bet he is the author of brainfuck :-D
16:37<dihedral>Belugas, if used with opengl you can move it to the gpl :-P
16:38<surfdue>Belugas, its not ahrd at all you make a class and functions for it and apply it to each object depending on the settings of the object like a rollercoaster vs a water ride would have different speeds/gravity
16:38<@Belugas>go ahead :) last time i've heard, gpl was too slow to be uselefull
16:38<andythenorth>gah, brainfuck made me forget what I'm doing
16:38<surfdue>Belugas, i wonder what games like halo use..
16:38<andythenorth>I doubt they use lol somehow
16:38<Alberth>less moving objects
16:39<@Belugas>and by the way... with those modifcaiotns in mind, you are gettin further away fro our graphic engine
16:39<dihedral>they have a totally different engine + game approach + state
16:39<surfdue>well like rct they use 3d objects that are rendered from all sides
16:39<@Belugas>Halo and all are NOT 2d sprites oriented...
16:39<surfdue>airline tycoon
16:39<surfdue>yoot tower
16:39<dihedral>surfdue, only rct3 did that
16:39<surfdue>i hate rct3
16:40<dihedral>that's the only one in the line that was real 3d
16:40<surfdue>halo is
16:40<dihedral>... in the line of RCT!!
16:40*Zuu goes to bed and reads a good book instead
16:41-!-Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:41<surfdue>i could make rct in gamemaker
16:42<@Belugas>well good for you
16:42<surfdue>Belugas, its a joke.
16:42<dihedral>you have a lot of interesting and enthusiastic ideas...
16:42<surfdue>Belugas, cool down
16:42*dihedral gets the popcorn
16:42<surfdue>Belugas, i feel like you are expressing certain hate towards me for no reason
16:42*andythenorth gets back to the nfo
16:43<andythenorth>let me know when this is done
16:43<dihedral>surfdue, reason is in the eye of the beholder ;-)
16:43<dihedral>+ if the beholder is a channelop... 'reason' can do way more than you might have gambled for
16:45<@Belugas>i'm in a very bad mood right now. people who are polluting my vital space are always putting me in a bad mood. My jokometer did not spotted your humour. Your reasoning failed to impress me in any way. So... how should i react?
16:46*planetmaker suggests a cleanthing approach.
16:46<planetmaker>some people already left due to boredom
16:46<andythenorth>14 done, means 26 to go
16:46<surfdue>Belugas, i dont know do what you have to, i just want to know how the operators operate in this room to see if its operator abuse or not since i did nothing wrong.
16:46<planetmaker>surfdue: you're absolutely off topic, I guess.
16:47<surfdue>!nick surfdue-afk
16:47-!-surfdue is now known as surfdue-afk
16:47<surfdue-afk>planetmaker, not any longer
16:47<surfdue-afk>nothing is beingsaid?
16:47<surfdue-afk>and is it a kick/ban reason to be offtopic when no one is talking?
16:47<planetmaker>depending upon the contents
16:47<surfdue-afk>planetmaker, thats a great way to promote your product and gain users
16:48<dihedral>surfdue-afk, kick/ban reason is defined by those who kick/ban
16:48<dihedral>everybody else in the channel gets that
16:48<SmatZ>changing your nick when you become afk is a subject to kick too
16:48<surfdue-afk>if you came to #iphone or #leopard where im an admin and i kick you for no reason
16:48-!-surfdue-afk was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [now you're really off]
16:48<SmatZ>if you change your nick too often
16:48<dihedral>oh - TrueBrain said i could keep him!
16:49<dihedral>but it's cute - he invited you to a channel where he is an admin, just to kick you ;-)
16:49<_ln>a typical day in Sacro City:
16:49*dihedral hugs Belugas
16:49<@Belugas>no, he just invited me to suck his dick
16:49<andythenorth>that was fun
16:49<planetmaker>nah. boring
16:49<planetmaker>though it had it's funny elements, granted
16:50*andythenorth /irony
16:50<SmatZ>[20:13:22] <frosch123> planetmaker, dihedral: do you see some splash screen ( ) at ottd start?
16:50<SmatZ>[20:14:55] <frosch123> if you do, do you also see it when using a 32bpp blitter? and is the background black or transparent?
16:50-!-Grelouk [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
16:50<SmatZ>did you reply to this, or did I miss it? could you check please? :)
16:51<planetmaker>SmatZ: never ever
16:51<planetmaker>oh... never tried 32bpp :-)
16:51<dihedral>SmatZ, i will tomorrow
16:51<frosch123>SmatZ: dih wants to test tomorrow, but it does not hurt if andy and pm test today :)
16:51<@Belugas>now.. that is good talking :)
16:51<SmatZ>ah, ok :)
16:51<SmatZ>I missed your discussion then ;)
16:52<dihedral>there was none
16:52<andythenorth>SmatZ: what am I testing?
16:52<dihedral>it was a 'ill do it tomorrow' and a 'ok'
16:52<TrueBrain>dihedral: sorry, I was overruled ;)
16:52<SmatZ>andythenorth: nothing?
16:52-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
16:52<TrueBrain>for good reasons, I might add
16:52<andythenorth>SmatZ: well strictly I'm testing FIRS right now
16:52<dihedral>+q would have been more fun though
16:53<TrueBrain>on that I agree
16:53<TrueBrain>but I now no longer dare to join one of the channels he is a so called admin in ... I am scared :(
16:53-!-Polygon [] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!]
16:53<dihedral>i bet the #rct is not registered :-D
16:53<TrueBrain>and now I am going to watch a movie and go to bed
16:53<+glx>why would you want to join #iphone?
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16:54<@Belugas>hehe... i would like to see the effect of been kicked :)
16:54<planetmaker>SmatZ: bin/openttd -b 32bpp-anim & is the correct call, right?
16:54<planetmaker>if so: then it has no effect
16:54<TrueBrain>well, we can do what the tt-forums did with that 'new forum because tt-forums sucks'
16:54<planetmaker>concerning splash screen or so
16:54<TrueBrain>I kind of liked that
16:54<SmatZ>maybe blitter doesn't have to be set, I don't know :)
16:54<SmatZ>but okay ;)
16:55<+glx>splash screen is an OS feature I think
16:55<@Belugas>damned... what a butt head...
16:56<@Belugas>all those channels do not exist
16:56*Belugas creis
16:56*Belugas crie
16:56<planetmaker>well... the first thing I see of OpenTTD is... the title menu with the intro game
16:56<frosch123>planetmaker: no splashscreen at all, or black or transparent background?
16:56*Belugas cries
16:56<dihedral>hehe - perhaps on another network ;-)
16:56<planetmaker>or well... maybe before that an empty window while loading
16:56<@Belugas>ho.. then.. i wont run after him....
16:56<planetmaker>frosch123: nothing.
16:56<planetmaker>no splash
16:56<@Belugas>i wanted to invite him to suck my toes, but it's not worth it
16:57<dihedral>why not #Belugas.bitches :-P
16:57<SmatZ>planetmaker: do you get splash in non-32bit mode?
16:57<planetmaker>SmatZ: nope
16:57-!-asilv [] has quit []
16:58<planetmaker>it looks to me like it's a SDL feature, given the further comments in that commit message
16:59<frosch123>no, it is cocoa only
16:59-!-tux_mark_5 [] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090115, built on: 2009/03/07 00:45:02 UTC]
16:59<planetmaker>well. I've never seen it, neither on 10.4 nor on 10.6 in any version ever afaik
17:00<SmatZ> and with this?
17:00-!-Chrill [~chrischri@] has quit []
17:00<SmatZ>anyway... I thought pitch is always in bytes...
17:00<SmatZ>(does that code even execute?)
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17:01<frosch123>hmm, SmatZ: isn't screen_pitch already in bytes?
17:01<SmatZ>[23:00:33] <SmatZ> anyway... I thought pitch is always in bytes... <== ;-)
17:02<planetmaker>SmatZ: neither
17:02<planetmaker>but it has a warning comparing singed vs. unsigned
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17:03<frosch123>lol, QZ_GameLoop is never called
17:03<SmatZ>uh :(
17:03<SmatZ>OSX port is hopelessly outdated :-p
17:03<frosch123>oh, wait, maybe i need to include *.mm in the grepping
17:03<planetmaker>frosch123: indeed :-)
17:04<_ln>*cough* drop it
17:05*planetmaker kicks _ln
17:06<frosch123>however planetmaker, either you do not use cocoa, or i do not know :p
17:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: what Mac text editor do you use?
17:06<frosch123>or it cannot find the file
17:06<planetmaker>frosch123: well... I guess there's not much way around cocoa, right?
17:06<planetmaker>andythenorth: depends. xcode or the usual text editor or texshop
17:07<frosch123>where does FioFOpenFile("splash.png") search, eh?
17:07<andythenorth>was hoping someone else might think nfo syntax colouring for TextWrangler would be nice
17:07<frosch123>in os/maxosc ?
17:07<frosch123>maybe you need to install ottd?
17:08<planetmaker>SmatZ: that would require SDL to run here
17:08<planetmaker>it might now. But I haven't tested it.
17:08<frosch123>andythenorth: what do you want to colour? strings, hex, escapes and comments?
17:08<andythenorth>pretty much
17:08<andythenorth>the c++ colouring is close
17:08<andythenorth>but no cigar
17:08<planetmaker>andythenorth: maybe there's one for emacs?
17:08<+glx>,...f = FioFOpenFile(SPLASH_IMAGE_FILE); <-- in splash.cpp
17:08<planetmaker>on my 10.4 install I had emacs, too
17:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: and there ends any sane discussion about text editors
17:09<andythenorth>like godwin's law, only for text editors
17:09<+glx>it depends on libpng
17:09<frosch123>glx: #define SPLASH_IMAGE_FILE "splash.png" <- and that one (bad tab usage btw)
17:10<andythenorth>only 7 industries left to do
17:10<frosch123>but the .png is in os/macosx/ not in bin or so
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17:10<frosch123>planetmaker: so, if you copy splash.png in the binary folder?
17:10<+glx>it is copied when building the dmg IIRC
17:10<+glx>then it's in the dmg
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17:11<planetmaker>glx: I usually don't build dmg
17:11<planetmaker>hm... maybe I should test it with a dmg :-)
17:11<frosch123>make bundle
17:11<dihedral>andythenorth, jedit ^^
17:11<frosch123>copies it
17:11<planetmaker>make bundle_dmg
17:11<+glx>,...$(Q)cp "$(ROOT_DIR)/os/macosx/splash.png" "$(DATA_DIR)"
17:11*Belugas is gone. willneed to sleep a lot
17:12<planetmaker>bye Belugas
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17:13<andythenorth>grr. newgrf window: if I put you somewhere on the screen, it's for a reason. stop jumping to the middle
17:14<planetmaker>SmatZ: frosch123 glx when I use the bundle, there's the OpenTTD logo growing. I guess that qualifies as splash
17:14<SmatZ>yeah :)
17:14<SmatZ>guess so
17:15<SmatZ>with the patch, or without the patch?
17:15<SmatZ>or doesn't it matter?
17:15<SmatZ>ok, thank you :)
17:15<planetmaker>:-) you're welcome
17:16<andythenorth>5 left
17:16<andythenorth>4 left
17:16<frosch123>planetmaker: and the background is also black for 32bpp blitters?
17:17<SmatZ>true, 32bpp blitter has to be used
17:17<planetmaker>uh... I forgot to enable any blitter. Just clicked on the icon
17:17<SmatZ>_screen.pitch is certainly in bytes
17:17<planetmaker>I guess I need to change the config for that...
17:17<planetmaker>it was transparent btw
17:18<SmatZ> dst = ((uint32 *) _screen.dst_ptr) + (yoff + y) * _screen.pitch + xoff;
17:18<SmatZ>but then even this is wrong
17:18<andythenorth>3 left
17:18<SmatZ>planetmaker: can you make sure that code is executed? by something like error("yes it works!") there?
17:19<frosch123> _screen.pitch = ((byte*)screen->line[1] - (byte*)screen->line[0]) / (bpp / 8); <- SmatZ: looks like it isn't
17:19<andythenorth>2 left
17:19<frosch123>yeah, pitch is in pixels
17:20*SmatZ slaps myself
17:20<SmatZ>sorry frosch123 :-x
17:20<andythenorth>1 left
17:20<frosch123>[23:19] <SmatZ> dst = ((uint32 *) _screen.dst_ptr) + (yoff + y) * _screen.pitch + xoff; <- he, you were again faster
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17:21<andythenorth>and I'm done
17:21<andythenorth>although certain questions have been begged.
17:22<andythenorth>does a water tower really need to use the production callback?
17:22<andythenorth>there is no 'processing' for water really
17:22<planetmaker>SmatZ: adding the error line to the start of the splash routine crashes openttd even from the command line
17:22<SmatZ>planetmaker: good :)
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17:23<SmatZ> so this works :)
17:23<SmatZ>eg. there is no need to set Alpha channel
17:23<planetmaker>with or without 32bpp-anim
17:24<SmatZ> dst[x] = palette[src[x]].blue | (palette[src[x]].green << 8) | (palette[src[x]].red << 16) | 0xff000000;
17:24<SmatZ>oh it's set later...
17:24<frosch123>SmatZ: the png does not fill the screen
17:25<SmatZ>now why it's done when it's overwritten later
17:25<SmatZ>guess I am too sleepy for this :)
17:26<planetmaker>why does it need that patch?
17:28<frosch123>because memset only takes bytes
17:28<frosch123>0xff000000 is pointless
17:28<planetmaker>oh, right
17:29<planetmaker>I guess I'm too tired, too
17:29<frosch123>alpha is set to zero, and we wondered whether it worked at all :p
17:30<andythenorth>time for bed
17:30<andythenorth>for me anyway. you lot feel free to carry on
17:31<andythenorth>good night
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17:34*planetmaker will also go to bed. Tomorrow is another 16h working day ahead, if I judge from today and yesterday
17:34*planetmaker waves good night at everyone
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17:46<Sacro>BNF is evil
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17:53<Sacro>there must be an easiuer way of writing [a-zA-Z]
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18:17<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: that's why (E)BNF is used for the syntactical analysis, not for the lexical analysis.
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>lexical analysis is done by regexp
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18:18<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: true
18:18<Sacro>can i use one to generate the other?
18:18<Sacro>also EBNF is bammed :(
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>how could you? regexp is way less powerful than EBNF
18:21<Sacro>how do i do a quote?
18:21<Sacro>''' ?
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>in what?
18:21<Sacro><character_constant> :== "'" <character> "'"
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, same techniques as in all other programming languages
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18:33<Terkhen>good night
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18:41<Sacro>things like confuse me
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause>why? it's a sequence of "<value>" connected by either "*" or "/"
18:43<Sacro>can you use brackets>
18:44<Sacro>like <term> :== value ( '*' | '/' )
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think so, might be EBNF
18:44<Sacro>i could use an EBNF -> BNF converter :p
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>but it's not necessary, just make two rules
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>term :== value
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>err: term :== value '*' and term :== value '/'
18:46<Sacro>yes but that doesn't cover the recursive compenent
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>err, yes, misses "term" at the end
18:46<Sacro>term := value '*' | value '/' | term
18:46<Sacro>but that feels wrong
18:47<Sacro>| term value
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>term :== (value | value '*' term | value '/' term )
18:48<Sacro>oh yes
18:48<Sacro>and the lone 'value' cancels the recursion
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>might use a left associative version, though
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>term :== (value | term '*' value | term '/' value )
18:50<Sacro><term> :== <value> | <value> '*' <term> | <value> '/' <term>
18:50<Sacro>does it matter?
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>arithmetic expressions are usually left associative
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>logical expressions right associative
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18:53<Eddi|zuHause>just try to build an example tree, a*b/c/d*e in either version
18:55<Sacro>what about ?
18:55<Sacro>can that be done in one rule?
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>and compare that with the bracket tree for (((a*b)/c)/d)*e
18:55*Sacro ponders
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's usually the part done in regexp
18:56<Sacro>Yeah :(
18:56<Sacro>but EBNF is not allowed
18:56<Sacro>i've done it using a <charactersordigits> rule
18:56<Sacro>but i have the feeling i might not be getting it
18:56<Sacro>kinda like when i do prolog
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>i can imagine... ;)
18:57<Sacro>my prolog was atrocious till it clicked
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>but it should work with the same kind of recursion as above
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>identifier :== character | identifier character | indentifier digit
18:58<Sacro>should it?
18:58<Sacro>but does that allow ...
18:58<Sacro>i think my head is going to explode
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>that's the easy part ;)
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>wait until you get to the attributed grammars for the semantical analysis :p
18:59<Sacro>oh bugger
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19:45<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: mind *blown*
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20:22<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: evening
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21:26<Rhamphoryncus>huh. My trucks will go to the back side of a depot to load, but not to unload
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21:35<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: think i got it done, cheers
21:35<Sacro>also getting the hang of vim
21:35<Sacro>and finally got mercurial and ssh keys going too
21:41<PeterT>mercurial for what OS, sacro?
21:41<Sacro>I have it on all 3
21:41<PeterT>could you provide me with a *working* download link for windows
21:41<Sacro>i use tortoisehg
21:42<PeterT>from where?
21:42<PeterT>this has a command line?
21:42<Sacro>and gui
21:42<Sacro>grab visualhg if you want it in vs
21:42<PeterT>what do I type to download the trunk.hg?
21:43<Sacro>hg pull?
21:43<Sacro>or it might be clone
21:43<PeterT>for this:
21:44<Sacro>hg clone $url
21:45<PeterT>what do you use hg for?
21:45<Sacro>Uni stuff
21:45<Sacro>keeping assignments
21:47<Sacro>learning flex and bison
21:47<Sacro>right, bed
21:47<Sacro>got labs at 9am
21:47<Sacro>despite me being 3 weeks ahead
21:48<Sacro>might order a new case tommorow
21:48<Sacro>antec 300 :D
21:48<Sacro>will look tidier for when I go to lan parties
21:48<PeterT>nice :)
21:50<Sacro>assuming i can find a drop off point :(
21:50<Sacro>oh well, to bed
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22:09<Rhamphoryncus>oooookay. 4096 doesn't *sound* that big.. but it is
22:11<Rhamphoryncus>wait, that's only 2048
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22:34<PeterT>Night All
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23:56<johnj>I desire tips on how to improve the design of my site
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 14 00:00:28 2009