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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-10-17

---Logopened Sat Oct 17 00:00:28 2009
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03:15<Terkhen>good morning
03:21<andythenorth>Are cargo subtype texts useful?
03:22<andythenorth>Do they add to gameplay, or are they just a bit too much detail?
03:22<andythenorth>For example, 'Engineering Supplies (Cement)', 'Goods (Cars)'
03:24<Rhamphoryncus>Off hand, if goods are really cars then why not just say cars?
03:25<andythenorth>Because they aren't cars, they're goods?
03:25<Rhamphoryncus>Then the subtext is wrong and irrelevant
03:25<andythenorth>(There are max 32 cargos available, so we have to make some allowances)
03:26<andythenorth>I worry too that it confuses players
03:26<andythenorth>"Can I ship Engineering Supplies (Cement) in any old vehicle that refits to ES, or do I need one that refits to Engineering Supplies (Cement)?"
03:27<andythenorth>^^ Is the kind of thing that I think would go through players minds
03:27<Rhamphoryncus>And actually, I'd expect that to be Construction Supplies
03:27<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: again, stuck with the 32 cargo limit ;)
03:27<andythenorth>Certain compromises have been made
03:27<Rhamphoryncus>I'm not saying to add another category. I'm saying that engineering supplies is misnamed ;)
03:28<Rhamphoryncus>What engineering supplies brings to mind has more to do with architecture and design
03:30<andythenorth>Well in FIRS it covers everything from cement to mining trucks, it's a broad composite cargo
03:31<Rhamphoryncus>again I'd associate that with construction equipment.. but then, I'm not an engineer
03:31<Rhamphoryncus>And it could be a difference in language
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03:36<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
03:36<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 9 hours, 39 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
03:36<andythenorth>^^ must be time for him to get up and come to play here
03:36<andythenorth>I went to sleep when he did...
03:36<andythenorth>and I'm coding again :)
03:45<Alberth>hmm, counting is not one of the strong points of my package manager :p
03:46<Alberth>kpackagekit thinks I have 1608 updates, while yum only has 49 :)
03:48<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17780 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: A bit more code style in the autoreplace window.
03:58<planetmaker>[09:21] <andythenorth> Are cargo subtype texts useful? <-- imo they add to the atmosphere. yes
03:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: what about the points above about confusing players?
03:59<planetmaker>if provided in the way as I know them "Engineering supplies (cement)" etc I personally don't consider it too confusing
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03:59<planetmaker>but just my personal 2ct ;-)
04:10<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17781 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Remove local variable 'selected_group' from autoreplace window.
04:12<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17782 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3270]: animation wasn't removed from station tiles when keeping the rail during removal
04:14<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17783 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Remove local pointer variable 'widget' from autoreplace window.
04:16*andythenorth still doesn't understand how to end a callback chain correctly
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04:19<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17784 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Replace 'i' with 'side' when side is intended in the autoreplace window.
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04:54*boekabart can't believe he just said that
05:00<TrueBrain>and I am doing my best to ignore it:p
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06:10<andythenorth>FIRS FIRS FIRS
06:11<andythenorth>Mines store up to 200 crates of Engineering Supplies...
06:11<andythenorth>Forests seem like they should do a bit less
06:11<andythenorth>maybe 120 crates?
06:11<andythenorth>Mines use pit props and fuel and machinery and stuff
06:11<andythenorth>Forests are a bit less demanding...
06:14<andythenorth>ach screw it, I'll code it then try a game
06:14<andythenorth>then I can tweak them later
06:18<Coco-Banana-Man>how long will it need until it's empty again?
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06:48<Drake2>anybody here?
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07:01*andythenorth broke something
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07:24<George>Belugas: Are you here?
07:25<George>What about FS1862? You wrote that you were working on it. How far are you from finishing it?
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07:29<Alberth>George: usually, he is not here during the weekend (sometimes just for a short while)
07:29<George>I know, but evering can happen ;)
07:30<George>Looks like not only me became interested in FS1862, so I decided to ask
07:31<frosch123>hmm, i had a patch for that about 1.5 years ago. was it never committed?
07:39<frosch123>it is agains r12362 :p
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07:46<frosch123>yeah, i remember there were issues with ttdp
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07:49<Pikka>DaleStan: thanks for correcting the var2 wiki entry. I wasn't sure what it meant originally, and obviously I leapt the wrong way trying to clarify it.
07:49<frosch123> <- looks like the last proposal was to return the number of parameters needed in var100, and the textstack starting from 101. which was iirc a requirement by ttdp, as ottd does not need the var100
07:50<Pikka>erm, random 2 wiki entry
07:55<frosch123>George: who got also interested in it?
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07:58<Pikka>andy, frosch123
07:58<frosch123>ah, the firs guy
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08:06<insulfrog>hi all
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08:32<insulfrog>I have posted some screenies of my network in it's current condition on the tt forums
08:32<insulfrog>shown here: -
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>openttd has a builtin screenshot function, you know...
08:34<insulfrog>never thought to use it :p
08:36<insulfrog>although I found it easier just to use the Alt+PrintScreen key(s)
08:36<insulfrog>It's just what I'm customed to I suppose
08:37<Alberth>some more detail would be nice imho, now you can only see the overview
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>the point is, if you use the windows screenshot function, you "spoil" the 8bpp window content with the 32bpp window frame, which makes all the picture 32bpp and might make it an unnecessarily big file
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08:38<insulfrog>the current shots ment to be a general overview anyway, I was going to post some more detailed shots later
08:38<insulfrog>because the areas are zoomed out
08:40<insulfrog>I havn't noticed the detail changes anyway between the actual OTTD and the screenies
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08:44<Eddi|zuHause>screenshot 2 is kinda nice ;)
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>i like the nonstandard-spaghetti-ness ;)
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not the usual "flat everything first" approach
08:45<Alberth>insulfrog: I wouldn't have bothered for screens 6 and 9 probably
08:45<Alberth>yeah, 2 looks promising
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08:55<insulfrog>I was hoping to do more where screen 6 is but when the game went to the 'score screen' and went to 2051, I forgot all about that way so I just made a 'quick fix' just to say something is there :p .
08:57<insulfrog>also I don't want people saying "what's beyond that junction on the main line" a million times if you know what I mean :p
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09:30<insulfrog>drat, I must sort out an anoying jam before I expand my network
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09:30<Accatyyc>ah those
09:30<Accatyyc>i broke my record today! 16 trains on the same network xD started playing last week
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09:31<Accatyyc>learning those signals was pretty tedious in the start
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>you're lucky you have the internet to explain stuff... i had to learn signals from the demo version with no manual...
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09:55<De_Ghosty>learn signal from ppl
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10:07*insulfrog is thinking how he can fix the traffic problem
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10:16<Eddi|zuHause>sell all vehicles, solves all traffic problems
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10:26<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17785 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: autoreplace window uses pure nested widgets.
10:29<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17786 /trunk/src/ (20 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#3265]: graphical glitches (matrices/scrollbars with wrong 'size') upon reiniting windows
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10:39<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17787 /trunk/src/ (music/allegro_m.cpp sound/allegro_s.cpp video/allegro_v.cpp): -Codechange: be a bit more verbose about while allegro failed with some actions.
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10:47<Pikkaa>hi andy
10:48<andythenorth>hi pikka
10:48<andythenorth>hey that wasn't autocomplete!
10:48<andythenorth>silly macintosh
10:49<andythenorth>You people have been good, so you get a log raft
10:49<andythenorth>"Lowest cost per ton of any vehicle"
10:49<andythenorth>^^ that's pretty exciting I bet
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10:50*Alberth is tempted to click on the picture for more information :)
10:51<Alberth>it looks very pretty
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10:58<andythenorth_>frosch123: <George> Looks like not only me became interested in FS1862, so I decided to ask
10:58<andythenorth_>07:31 <frosch123> hmm, i had a patch for that about 1.5 years ago. was it never committed?
10:58<andythenorth_>So what's the thinking on that?
10:58<andythenorth_>Because I'm about to abuse cb 37 to set text strings on about 60 industries
10:59<andythenorth_>which will work fine, but is less funny if it's wasted work :)
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11:07<frosch123>if it wouldn't segfault all the time, i would give you a diff for testing
11:07<Accatyyc>question about translations... can I remove the {P "" s} tag if no plural exists in my language on the word in question? or just change it to {P "" ""}?
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>Accatyyc: just remove the entire {}
11:07<frosch123>just remove it
11:09<andythenorth_>frosch123: who minds a segfault :)
11:09<andythenorth_>tbh I am quite happy with the hack route
11:09<andythenorth_>I think there are probably bigger fish to fry no?
11:10<andythenorth_>got to go, back later...
11:10<frosch123>no idea, what you actually did :)
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11:15<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17788 /trunk/src/ (music/null_m.h sound/allegro_s.h sound/null_s.h): -Fix [FS#3268] (r16702): don't fail hard when no soundcard could be detected; just fall back on the null-driver
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>something's wrong with my engine :(
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>it only works when i turn the screw to catenary mode... :(
11:39<Pikkaa>what have you done, eddi?
11:40<Accatyyc>wonder if people are gonna freak out if i change a major translation... the person before me translated "Buy" to "Build". thinking of changing it as it should be
11:40<frosch123>since when do model railway with catenary exist?
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>they always did
11:41<frosch123>Accatyyc: "build" was only recently changed to "buy" in english
11:41<Accatyyc>okay, they were validated though
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid some contact is broken somewhere...
11:42<Accatyyc>guess i'll change them
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11:51<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i don't have any catenary...
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm, so at least two soldering contacts seem to be broken... i've done a very provisorial repair now, leaving two wheels unconnected...
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12:28<andythenorth_>frosch123: no idea, what you actually did
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12:28<frosch123>is that a quote or an answer? :p
12:29<andythenorth_>I just used cb 37 in the way it was intended...except...
12:29<andythenorth_>instead of a text for a cargo subtype I set a text for '(max 200)'
12:29<andythenorth_>I think it works, it's just not the documented use for cb37
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you should use "<nick>" when you quote and nick:
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>when you answer
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid confusion
12:30<andythenorth_>hey I just learnt something
12:30<frosch123>you should check for the text being displayed in the industry view, i.e. neither in fund industry gui or industry list. then it should be fine
12:30<andythenorth_>frosch123: yep I do both of these things
12:31<andythenorth_>tbh, I find setting a text this way much simpler than using a text stack
12:31<frosch123>george was about the "200". i.e. is it always 200 or can it increase or decrease?
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12:31<andythenorth_>The 200 could change. It doesn't in my current plan, but I haven't tested enough yet, and users are requesting it
12:32<andythenorth_>If the 200 changes, I just use a different string...
12:32<frosch123>well, if the 200 changes, you can either add text for all possible values, or you could use the stack to insert a value from a register
12:32<frosch123>if you only have "200" there is no point in using the stack
12:33<andythenorth_>If I make the limit dynamic, there's so much other code to change, I should probably use a register
12:33<andythenorth_>but I'm probably not going to bother
12:34<andythenorth_>what would be interesting is having stockpiles limits 'built in' :)
12:34<andythenorth_>to create the current version means varaction 2 chains for both industry and *all* industry tiles
12:34<frosch123>there is a buildin limit of 65535 :p
12:34<andythenorth_>He he :P
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, "builtin" would have some advantages, e.g. the AI could query them...
12:35<andythenorth_>I would also like a pony
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>zomg, ponies!
12:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: then you would also need to add how fast the cargo is processed, and ....
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, and the newgrf only enables that behaviour and sets the parameters...
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause>reduces the "code" part of newgrfs, and focuses on the "data" part...
12:37<frosch123>... and whether cargo is only processed if certain amounts of multipe cargos are available and ...
12:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: but that is the essential part of newgrf. abstract stuff which is only limited by the imagination of the newgrf coder.
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12:38<George3>frosch123: It is different for every industry for every production level
12:39<frosch123>no richk-like stuff which supports everything he could think of in 5 minutes, but nothing more without trashing it all
12:39<frosch123>George3: there is a new diff in the fs task
12:40<George3>I see, but I need executable to test :(
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12:40<frosch123>wait 10 minutes :p
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12:56<Eddi|zuHause>i guess he couldn
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>'t wait 10 minutes :p
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13:15<andythenorth_>ah, a problem
13:16<andythenorth_>FIRS oil platform accepts passengers, because we all like that, right?
13:16<andythenorth_>but I am using the production callback, so passengers get 'processed' :)
13:16<andythenorth_>I might be able work around it with the production callback, but it's kind of weird
13:18<sawtooth>Just name the oil platform "Ellis"
13:19<frosch123>andythenorth_: just do not add passenger to the list of accepted cargos of the industry, but only to the acceptance of industry tiles
13:19<andythenorth_>good idea
13:19<frosch123>that is how the default oil rig does it :p
13:20<andythenorth_>can industry tiles produce cargo without it being a 'produced' cargo at the industry
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13:21<andythenorth_>oh well
13:22<andythenorth_>I had an idea there, but never mind
13:22<andythenorth_>players seem to like industries that accept / produce passengers, but I'm not wasting industry cargo slots on it :)
13:22<andythenorth_>(except for the oil platform!)
13:27<PeterT>@seen Celestar
13:27<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 25 weeks, 3 days, 9 hours, 28 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Celestar> morning
13:27<PeterT>is he still developing CargodEst
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13:31*andythenorth_ so what cargo acceptance do we get at an industry with six tiles each with 1/8 acceptance?
13:31<andythenorth_>hmm hmm?
13:31*andythenorth_ points fingers at FooBar :D
13:32*andythenorth_ or maybe points finger at seld
13:32<andythenorth_>self *
13:33<Pikka>6/8 if the station catchment covers the whole industry, andy? :P
13:34<andythenorth_>my bad
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13:34<andythenorth_>I just learnt how cb 2B works :)
13:34<andythenorth_>I was wrong before
13:34<andythenorth_>now to change all that code I copied and pasted earlier...
13:36<Pikka>that's always fun :)
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r17789 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: basque - 79 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: greek - 11 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 78 changes by Utvik
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by Utvik
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: swedish - 233 changes by accatyyc
13:53<Accatyyc>already? hm. will these come with the next nightly or do they update ingame?
13:54<@Rubidium>they'll come with the next nightly
13:54<@Rubidium>which will be done in roughly 1 hour
13:55<PeterT>or you can manually download and compile via svn
13:56<Accatyyc>okay sweet
13:58<Accatyyc>yeah, i take it only the devs can commit to svn.. but what do you do if you play around with the code and fix something that could be of use in the public revisions?
13:58<sawtooth>then you make a patch
14:00<Chruker>and post it to ...
14:00<SmatZ>and devs commit it :-p
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14:06<Eddi|zuHause>Accatyyc: if you feel you have a change worth commiting, make a patch and put that on then a dev can review it, and if it is not rejected, it will sooner or later end up being commited
14:06<Accatyyc>okay :)
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>Accatyyc: before you do that, read the wiki about coding style, because that is the first criterium that will cause a rejection
14:07<Accatyyc>no worries
14:08<Accatyyc>nothing like merging unformatted code ..
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14:19<andythenorth>FIRS Oil Platform seems to work using method suggested by frosch123
14:19<andythenorth>guess testing will show if I've got it right :)
14:20<frosch123>but you cannot implement stockpile limits for passengers that way :p
14:21<andythenorth>That's ok, I'm only using limits for cargos that boost production
14:21<andythenorth>Passengers won't boost production for Oil Platform
14:21<andythenorth>I'm just including them because it's kind of traditional :)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>omg... comedy central is broadcasting jeff dunham...
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>DUBBED IN GERMAN!
14:23<b_jonas>andythenorth: oil platforms also have a built in heliport which would look strange without passengers
14:23<b_jonas>though I can't really see why anyone would actually want to use that heliport
14:24<b_jonas>I think the passengers in industries were more important in the original ttd because of the many train heads that carry passengers and can't be refitted
14:24<frosch123>b_jonas: until 2050 the oil production reduces to 4 tons per month, and it needs to be transported as valuables to banks via helicopters
14:25<Chruker>SOme people like helicopters
14:25<b_jonas>especially if you full load
14:25<b_jonas>Chruker: sure, but from an oil platform?
14:25<b_jonas>frosch123: oh, I see
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14:26<andythenorth>b_jonas: helicopters are....realistic :)
14:26<break19>Every game I play with oil platforms/derricks, they always go "empty" in just a few years
14:26<andythenorth>FIRS is different
14:26<frosch123>yeah, cs added helicopters to ttd only for belugas
14:26<andythenorth>they probably discussed it via PM
14:26<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: Stille... I töte Sie?
14:27<andythenorth>Anyway, passengers at oil platforms is done and dusted, unless there are bugs
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i don't know, i switched off after 3 seconds, because the dubbing is unbelievably bad...
14:27<andythenorth>So on to production boosting for farms
14:28<break19>I propose a "government" game.. unlimited money. :p
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: sounds like "Ich bring euch um!"
14:28<b_jonas>governments don't actually have unlimited money
14:28<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: dubbing is not generally bad. i.e. in "hercules in new york" you can concentrate on the story without being distracted by austrian english
14:28<break19>I know. they just think they do. :/
14:29<b_jonas>break19: oh, so it would just display unlimited money but you'd still go bankrupt if you spend too much?
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: dubbing is not bad in general, but the comedy central dubs are exceptionally cheap and thus bad...
14:29<frosch123>[20:29] <break19> I propose a "government" game.. unlimited money. :p <- you can play iceland then
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14:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: jeff dunham sounds like one of those translated home shopping shows
14:30<@Rubidium>frosch123: I was thinking about Zimbabwe
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>the german system is not bad either "we take out loans so we can repay the old ones faster!" :p
14:32<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: not a bad idea when the interest rate is significantly lower
14:32<fjb>Isn't mail also important fot oil platforms? :-)
14:33<b_jonas>fjb: nah, they have internets by the time oil platforms appear
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: an industry can only produce two cargos
14:34<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: But it could accept mail. Love letters from the wives of the workers. They never write back because they disappear there.
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14:35<b_jonas>so is there a terrain in openttd where towns produce an increasing number of garbage you have to transport to garbage industriess to make the towns grow?
14:36<@Rubidium>in TTD's world garbage is mailed
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: garbage is facing that same problem, a building can only produce two cargos, so you have to chose between mail or garbage
14:36<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: well then there wouldn't be mail. people use the internet.
14:37<@Rubidium>you can't send *all* you garbage over the internet
14:37<andythenorth>b_jonas: FIRS has waste (garbage), but it won't make towns grow
14:37<@Rubidium>although... lots of people are trying to send garbage over the internet
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because worldwide mail service broke down since the introduction of internet
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>the same way as the internet killed book printing
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>or road traffic
14:38<b_jonas>it's not the internet, mail service here broke down before the internet started to spread
14:40<b_jonas>anyway, if you can have climates where towns don't require food then not having mail doesn't seem that strange to me either
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14:47<Accatyyc>i thought transporting garbage was a really good idea
14:47<andythenorth>you can in FIRS
14:47<andythenorth>garbage came up several times on the forums as a suggestion
14:48<andythenorth>and for that kind of suggestion, newgrf is the answer
14:48<andythenorth>I'm working on it right now, but there is a version released already
14:48<Accatyyc>but what would happen to a town if you refuse to transport their garbage?
14:48<Pikka>anyone who cares: the personal letter wasn't killed by the internet, it was killed by the telephone. if anything, the internet has created an increase in mail traffic, as it is now much easier to mail-order things from far away.
14:48<andythenorth>in FIRS, nothing
14:48<Accatyyc>become a big garbage pile :P
14:48<andythenorth>Someone else could code a town set to do something interesting with garbage
14:48<andythenorth>But not me :)
14:49<andythenorth>I'm busy. I've got an industry set, a ship set, and a truck set to look after
14:49<Accatyyc>which industry set?
14:49<Pikka>andy: I was thinking of having scrapyards and recycling plants
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14:50<George>frosch123: test #1 passed (FS1862)
14:50<Pikka>with no inputs; we assume garbage collection is done by the local authority, and we just take it once it's been pooled together :P
14:50<andythenorth>Pikka: might be able to help you out there....
14:50<frosch123>George: nice :)
14:50<andythenorth>Pikka: oh, I see that was two comments
14:50<andythenorth>as one
14:51<George>starting test 2
14:51<andythenorth>Pikka: yes that way we wouldn't need a Waste cargo
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14:51<andythenorth>I think I included it because I wanted to be able to run bin trucks
14:51<Pikka>fun :)
14:51<andythenorth>and garbage trains
14:51<andythenorth>and those boats you get in London
14:52-!-th1ngwath [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:52<andythenorth>but above all, the bulldozer from the movie Tremors
14:53<Accatyyc>FIRS looks fun. what happens if an industry forms with no drawn sprites though?
14:53<andythenorth>Accatyyc: it doesn't
14:53<frosch123>[20:38] <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: garbage is facing that same problem, a building can only produce two cargos, so you have to chose between mail or garbage <-
14:53<andythenorth>only industries with graphics are coded
14:54<andythenorth>players who've tried it seem to like it
14:54<andythenorth>there's enough to play a full game
14:54<andythenorth>but the tropic climate has a few mistakes
14:54<Accatyyc>okay :)
14:55<Accatyyc>might try it when the nightly is out
14:55*Accatyyc ponders...
14:55<andythenorth>It's here
14:55<Accatyyc>is there anyone out there actually playing toyland btw?
14:56<Accatyyc>meant ottd nightly :P
14:56<fjb>FIRS is fun.
14:57<andythenorth>fjb: thanks :)
14:57<andythenorth>feedback keeps me coding...
14:57<frosch123>[20:57] <Accatyyc> is there anyone out there actually playing toyland btw? <- the toyland helicopter was lost in the nightlies for about 2 months and noone complained
14:58<Accatyyc>pretty much answers my question
14:58*fjb is actually playing an game with FIRS (and FISH, but that beside some other ship set).
14:58<frosch123>and HEQS ?
14:58<andythenorth>fjb: how are you getting on with FISH?
14:59<fjb>andythenorth: I like it. Using it for coal with the biggest ships in the set.
15:00<andythenorth>Are they big enough? They are about right for scale, but in a game, I got a mine with high production and ended up with about 20 ships running to it
15:01<fjb>andythenorth: And the HEQS trucks are transporting the coal from and to the harbour.
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15:02<fjb>I'm using ships and trains. They are big enough in that scenario. But it is my first game with them.
15:02<andythenorth>ok thanks
15:02<andythenorth>HEQS is a bit unbalanced....too many useless bulldozers :)
15:03<andythenorth>But I don't have the heart to delete them
15:03<fjb>But they look nice.
15:03<fjb>And they don't disturb you if you are not using them.
15:04<andythenorth>I was aiming for a really balanced set with no pointless vehicles
15:04<andythenorth>but some of my favourite train sets do included some fairly pointless vehicles :)
15:04<fjb>Only bad thing is that articulated vehicles are not able to overtake them.
15:04<andythenorth>shay? snow plough?
15:04<andythenorth>Shame aRVs can't overtake each other...
15:04*fjb likes vehicles which look pointless.
15:06<fjb>dbset has only powerful locomotives later in the game because MB thinks switchers are pointless then. Maybe that is true in his style of playing TTD. But I'm missing them.
15:07<Pikka>oi, nothing wrong with the shay :P
15:07<fjb>I have used it. But mainly as a switcher.
15:07<andythenorth>I use it for hauling lumber
15:07<Pikka> , wot larfs.
15:07<andythenorth>as the creator intended :)
15:09<andythenorth>With FIRS, for bulk primary cargos, we're going to set the payment rates so flat that speed really doesn't matter
15:09<andythenorth>If you care about making money, it will become about cost-per-ton...which is...wait for it...
15:09<andythenorth>HIGHLY REALISTIC
15:10<Pikka>dun dun dun!
15:10<andythenorth>If you prefer eye candy (I do), well that's fine too, we've got you covered
15:10<Accatyyc><@Rubidium> ETA on nightly? :) I have to run off for a while
15:10<andythenorth>Pikka: I should stick to my knitting, but I've been thinking of some railway vehicles...
15:10<andythenorth>specifically engineering vehicles
15:11<andythenorth>breakdown crane etc
15:11<andythenorth>they could be either eye candy, or haul engineering supplies
15:11<@Rubidium>Accatyyc: 21 minutes ago
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15:12<Pikkaa>sounds good andy, might have trouble making it look okay in corners though :P
15:13<fjb>A German rail set in the style of NARS 2 (but with realistic instead of or in addition to player colors) would be great. But I always fail when I start to draw a vehicle.
15:13<andythenorth>Pikka: ach it can just bend in the middle
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15:14<andythenorth>how about a self-propelled crane as an engine?
15:14<andythenorth>or a crane tank?
15:14<Pikkaa>could do :P
15:14<andythenorth>most things are *possible*
15:14<andythenorth>with enough time
15:14<Pikkaa>and enough inclination
15:15<andythenorth>apparently mb has some sprites kicking around for maintenance vehicles
15:15<andythenorth>I like the idea because they could work with pretty much any set (allowing for scale issues)
15:16<andythenorth>anyway, back to today's nfo
15:16<andythenorth> should secondary industries use Engineering Supplies?
15:16*andythenorth has a beer to aid thinking
15:16<asilv>mb apparently has lots of stuff lying around, but is he ever going to release anything.. :P
15:16<andythenorth>it's Diwali today, shouldn't be drinking beer
15:17<andythenorth>mb should just gpl all of it
15:17<Pikkaa>psht, gpl :P
15:17<asilv>i don't care about licences as long as I get new toys to play with
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15:18<andythenorth>hah, gpl makes it possible to only care about one license:
15:18<b_jonas>actually it would become highly realistic only if industries woulnd't pay high distance fees for transporting stuff from farther than necessary
15:18<andythenorth>b_jonas: don't open *that* can of worms
15:18<b_jonas>except for passangers and mail
15:18<b_jonas>andythenorth: sure
15:18<b_jonas>you can't do that
15:18<b_jonas>it would break the whole ttd
15:18<andythenorth>there are forum posts about it
15:18<Pikka>andy: not-gpl makes it possible to care about no licences :P
15:19<b_jonas>why do rail depots and elecrified rail depots look exactly the same in ttdpatch?
15:19<@Rubidium>who cares about mb's vapourware anyway?
15:20<andythenorth>Pikka: not-gpl means I can end up having silly playground fights with other grf authors who go into a sulk about how their graphics are being used :)
15:20<andythenorth>gpl = no sulking
15:20<andythenorth>I love the gpl
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15:21<Pikka>psht :P
15:21<Pikka>but whatever works for you :P
15:21<andythenorth>Ok, secondary industries, how about:
15:21<andythenorth>Engineering Supplies waiting to be processed boosts production by 1.5 times what it would have been
15:22<andythenorth>Sound fun?
15:22<@Rubidium>bad sound => no fun
15:22<Pikka>boosts the production rate?
15:22<andythenorth>Pikka: yes
15:23<Pikka>not boosts the conversion ratio? :P sounds okay.
15:23<andythenorth>^^ that wasn't a suggestion for text by the way
15:23<fjb>Transporting things around the world is quite realistic. And more and more people order at Amazon instead of going to the local book store.
15:23<andythenorth>I would just branch action 2s for the production callback depending on how much ES is waiting
15:23<andythenorth>Seems like fun
15:24<andythenorth>For text, I'm thinking:
15:24-!-Goulp [] has joined #openttd
15:24<andythenorth>"Engineering Supplies gets you a Pony, Subways and a Realistic Economy"
15:24<b_jonas>anyway, first oil rig appeared so now I'm building oil train
15:25<andythenorth>train on water?
15:25<b_jonas>and I may have to found an oil refinery too
15:25<b_jonas>wait, this is already the second oil rig
15:26<b_jonas>I was so occupied by making the complicated train routes work that I didn't even notice
15:27<Ammler>pikka, is your license valid for bananas?
15:27*andythenorth runs away
15:28-!-Booth is now known as Chris_Booth
15:28*andythenorth comes back
15:28<andythenorth>forgot to do the dairy farm
15:28<andythenorth>no curry for me until that's done
15:28<andythenorth>and the fruit plantation
15:28<frosch123>Ammler: how can a license be invalid for bananas?
15:29<Ammler>"Distribution or modification without permission prohibited."
15:30<frosch123>yes, that means the user is not allowed to do neither of them
15:30<frosch123>bananas has its own terms
15:30<andythenorth>curry is one industry closer...
15:31<Pikka>Ammler: that's almost exactly what my copying.txt says :P
15:31-!-fjb [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:32<andythenorth>frosch123: :D
15:32<b_jonas>I hope I won't have to buy up the computer companies just because of the 256 depot limit
15:32<@Rubidium> <- I would run :)
15:32<b_jonas>there are only like 90 depot slots left
15:32<b_jonas>and I don't feel like buying them up yet
15:33-!-Goulp [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:33<@Rubidium>stop_ai? :)
15:34<andythenorth>curry is now imminent :)
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15:35<Pikka>how could this happen?
15:35<@Rubidium>something with a stove?
15:38<Ammler>pikka / frosch, the same reason, the is no CC license which forbids distribution. :-)
15:39<frosch123>Ammler: the author is never bound to his own license, and can offer any rights to anyone without caring about the license
15:40<Ammler>well, in cases, he is the only author or the others have left their rights.
15:43<Pikka>ammler: I have clearly given banananananas permission to distribute my grfs, as evidenced by the fact that I uploaded them ;)
15:43<Ammler>the issue is, you can distribute openttd with all content, but except those with such special custom licenses.
15:43<Ammler>I am not sure, if that is pointed out in the bananas rules.
15:43<Pikka>how is that an issue?
15:44<Ammler>Pikka: your license might not allow that.
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15:45<Pikka>I don't see how that is a problem with it being on bananas though
15:46<Ammler>if I downloaded it from bananas, I can distribute that tar?
15:46<Ammler>that isn't clear...
15:46<Pikka>the copying.txt says you can't do that without permission, no
15:47<Pikka>but what's the problem? :P
15:47<Ammler>well, making a cd with all content :-)
15:47<Sacro>pikka can do what he likes with his own stuff
15:47<Sacro>it's his to do it with
15:48<Ammler>Sacro: I never said something else...
15:48<Pikka>see, this is why I avoid complex licences
15:48<Pikka>people abandon all common sense and start pretending to be lawyers
15:48<Ammler>no license like yours is the most complec license
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15:49*frosch123 puts ttd in a tar, burns it on a cd, and sells it. the license does not apply when it is inside a tar
15:49<Sacro>what is Pikka's licence?
15:49<Pikka>"Distribution or modification without permission prohibited."
15:50<Sacro>sounds fine to me
15:50<Ammler>it is like "you need to ask, if you want something which is like no license"
15:50<Brianetta>Basically, no license
15:50<Brianetta>I have a limited license to redistribute some of Pikka's work
15:50<Sacro>the 'or' could be ambiguous
15:50<Brianetta>but that was to me personally
15:50<Sacro>Brianetta: latest version for use on the server iirc
15:51<Ammler>yes, same with the coop pack or now with bananas.
15:51<Brianetta>I'm not currently using that license, but its not transferable
15:51<Brianetta>Pikka might well have issued other licenses
15:51<Brianetta>that is, given permissions
15:52<Sacro>that's within his rights
15:52<Brianetta>That's all a license is
15:52<Brianetta>Specific permissions
15:52<Ammler>but it isn't clear, if that license is made invaled with bananas rules.
15:52<Brianetta>Ammler: How so?
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15:52<Ammler>because if you upload to bananas you allow openttd to distribute it.
15:53<Brianetta>Specifically, you allow bananas to redistribute it
15:53<Ammler>yes, I meant re
15:53<Brianetta>not openttd in general
15:53<Brianetta>and certainly not the end users
15:54<Ammler>You grant the OpenTTD team to distribute your latest content via our website.
15:54<Ammler>who is the team?
15:54<Brianetta>You can't assume a license just because somebody else has it. When I run my server, I'm allowed to pass copies of the newgrfs to players, but they're not given any implicit license to then pass those copies o nto other players, even for my server.
15:54<Brianetta>Ammler: If you're not sure, be sure it isn't you (:
15:55<Ammler>how can you?
15:55<frosch123>Ammler: you should take a job at microsoft, then you become owner of lots of patents
15:55<frosch123>and you can sell software
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15:56<Ammler>well, anyway, you can as end user redistribute everything except pikkas grfs.
15:59<Pikka>actually Ammler, you can distribute my grfs, providing you do one of two things
15:59-!-TrainzStoffe [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:59<Ammler>pikka, those 2 things should go to the license file.
16:00-!-oskari89 [] has quit [Quit: Utm A½ - Aja 35]
16:00<Pikka>well one of them already /is/ in the licence file (ask permission), and the second is to ignore the licence file. :P
16:01<Ammler>ignore isn't an alternative
16:01<Ammler>but if you don't care someone does ignore it, you should alter the license, definitly.
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16:02<Pikka>but I /might/ care if someone ignores it. that's the point of it.
16:02<Pikka>but if you just want to put it on a cd or email it to a friend, why would I care? how would I even know?
16:02<frosch123>you should add some term like "ammler is not allowed to use it"
16:02<TrueBrain>I would tell you! :)
16:03<Ammler>frosch123: that wouldn't help in the ignore case either.
16:04<frosch123>he would just call muammar and catch you
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16:11<Ammler>pikka, in which case e.g. would you say "no" to distribution?
16:12<Pikka>define distribution, what do you want to do?
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16:14<Ammler>that is what I wondering, what do I need to do, that you wouldn't allow me with your grfs.
16:14<TrueBrain>./name Ammler
16:15<andythenorth>hey I missed a licensing discussion
16:15<Ammler>just about distribution
16:15<andythenorth>what fun :P
16:16<Pikka>Ammler: if you want to upload it to some random website or repository of grfs
16:17<Pikka>I would say no
16:17<andythenorth>One of the ideas of FIRS is that we cater for players who insist on delivering *insane* amounts of cargo to a processing industry
16:17<andythenorth>(maglev fans for example)
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16:18<andythenorth>Those guys like to get insane output from their insane input
16:18<andythenorth>not quite sure how to code that, given that I *need* to use the production callback
16:18<andythenorth>which only processes at a certain rate
16:18<George>frosch123: test 2 passed
16:18<andythenorth>I'm sure varaction 2 will be my friend...
16:19<frosch123>andythenorth: 65535 units per 3.4 days is not bad, is it?
16:20<Ammler>hmm, ok, I had game magzines in mind.
16:21<George>frosch123: I have to do one more test, but I want to sleep, so I'll do it tomorrow
16:21<andythenorth>frosch123: I reckon that might cover it
16:21<frosch123>Ammler: what is the point of distributing stuff via some magazine, which you can download ingame?
16:21<frosch123>George: fine :)
16:21<Ammler>some people like that, because they have a bad internet connection.
16:22<frosch123>well, if they like it :)
16:22<Ammler>well, I heard :-P
16:23<andythenorth>458745 units processed in a month....can any of you co-op guys deliver more than that?
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16:23<Ammler>magazines are also a kind of advertising...
16:24<George>P.S. [23:04:47] <andythenorth> Shame aRVs can't overtake each other... What about FS 2738? Mabe some one has already a patch in the pocket? ;)
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16:25<frosch123>andythenorth: such amounts can only be delivered by ship
16:26<andythenorth>458 ships in a month?
16:26<andythenorth>pretty intense :)
16:26<andythenorth>what about by plane?
16:26<frosch123>so, 5000 ships per company, 15 companies, 65535 units per ship
16:26<andythenorth>Anotonov...A 380 or...Belugas
16:26<Ammler>andythenorth: there are some coop games which do split the cargo to different factories
16:26<frosch123>how long does a ship take to travel?
16:27<andythenorth>how long is a piece of string?
16:27<Ammler>means one station with around 3 station signs and 3 factories
16:27<andythenorth>it takes twice as long as it did to get half-way
16:28<Ammler>dunno, if we have a blog about...
16:28<andythenorth>Ammler: think you can deliver more than 458k units of cargo to one factory in a month?
16:28-!-Pikka [PikkaBird@] has quit []
16:29<andythenorth>bye Pikka
16:29<Ammler>Mark would know it better :-)
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16:29<Ammler>but I guess we that, because the factory can only produce 45k or so
16:30<andythenorth>I think we'll have a rule....if you must deliver more than 458k units of cargo / month...don't use FIRS :P
16:30<Ammler>(the default industry)
16:31<Ammler>andythenorth: it is like 5k trains on one map, there might come the time this is possible, 10 years? ;-)
16:31<b_jonas>I think I figured out the problem with my tracks
16:31<frosch123>andythenorth: check for that and close the industry with a newspaper saying it was burried and not found anymore
16:32<andythenorth>in 10 years, OpenTTD will be 3D...and fully realistic
16:32<b_jonas>the trains turn back because they want to go to a depot
16:32<Ammler>but then only 100 trains possible :-P
16:32<b_jonas>but they can't reach the depot because of the one-way signs
16:32<andythenorth>in 10 years time, someone will have finally written a python-nfo compiler
16:32<andythenorth>in 10 years I'm bored now
16:32<b_jonas>to fix this I need to build more depots but then I'll run out of depots even sooner
16:33<@Rubidium>... we're still waiting for a new dbsetxl
16:33<andythenorth>New Ships is 6 years old!
16:34<frosch123>.. we're going to party r50000
16:34<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17790 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: translatable base sound/graphics set descriptions
16:35<frosch123>TrueBrain: ^^ new task for you :p
16:35<TrueBrain>tasks are overrated
16:36<TrueBrain>OpenDUNE is much more fun :p
16:36<frosch123>oh, sorry, in 10 years time, we will all play opendune only
16:36<TrueBrain>good ;)
16:37<TrueBrain>I will hold you to that :)
16:38<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17791 /trunk/src/highscore_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Highscore and endgame windows use pure nested widgets.
16:39<frosch123>otoh, there are only 5 descriptions, maybe translators should have to include them into the mail to translator@ to prove their abilities
16:39<TrueBrain>haha, that should avoid silly translators, yes :)
16:42<@Rubidium>and how would someone unfamiliar with those languages tell whether the translation is any good?
16:42-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
16:43<TrueBrain>Rubidium: we ask around! :)
16:43<@Rubidium>so... who here speaks Basque?
16:43<@Rubidium>or more importantly, can write it
16:43<TrueBrain>well, he only needs to be able to read it
---Logclosed Sat Oct 17 16:49:56 2009
---Logopened Sat Oct 17 16:50:05 2009
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16:50-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 111 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 3 voices, 104 normal]
16:50<frosch123>1 ironore + 2 coal = 5 steel, 1 ironore + 1 coal = 3 steel, 1 ironore = 1 steel, 1 coal = 1 steel
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16:50<andythenorth>frosch123: seems a bit complicated? And also violates the laws of physics?
16:51<andythenorth>more units out than in?
16:51<frosch123>ok, 10 ironore + 20 coal = 5 steel
16:51<andythenorth>ah hah
16:51<andythenorth>that sort of thing can be done
16:51<frosch123>otoh, you could also control production speed with the stockpile ratio
16:51<lemon>ye s
16:51<lemon>i do it
16:51<lemon>: P
16:52<andythenorth>I suspect lemon may be a familiar person with a silly nick
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16:53<lemon>what !!
16:54<lemon>my nick is best
16:54<frosch123>... before 23:00
16:56<andythenorth>I think tonight I set all processing industries to use cargo and produce it at the blistering rate of FF FF
16:56<andythenorth>that makes FIRS unbroken again :)
16:56<andythenorth>then I'll tweak it
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16:56<andythenorth>FooBar is a big fan of escapes....which makes the code more readable, but weirds me out a bit :)
16:57<andythenorth>lemon: 333333?
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17:00<lemon> wher are you from
17:01<lemon>how contray
17:04-!-Pikka [PikkaBird@] has joined #openttd
17:05<andythenorth>hello Pikka
17:05<andythenorth>where *have* you been?
17:06*andythenorth just remembered some clever soul invented find and replace
17:06<lemon>wher have you not been ?
17:06<andythenorth>shame I've just spent ages copying and pasting :|
17:06<frosch123>hehe, i knew some fool added hintertupfingen to google maps
17:06<frosch123>though there is only one :o
17:06<Pikka>I have been playing tf2!
17:06<Pikka>hello andy
17:09<SpComb>Pikka the Pyro
17:10<lemon>yes u are some geek ; D
17:10<@Rubidium>no, the greeks were here a while ago
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17:15<lemon>but wats upp
17:17<Accatyyc>any OpenTF2 planned? :D
17:17<Accatyyc>just for the sake of it. you got this little project running along fine so
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17:29<Accatyyc>think he made a reference from tf2
17:29<Accatyyc>well that would be awesome
17:30<Accatyyc>or maybe the other way around
17:30<Accatyyc>dustbowl climate
17:31<andythenorth>google search for bombcart reminds me why I stay out of #tycoon :)
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17:31<andythenorth>hmm. I am being laughed at by the production callback
17:31<andythenorth>major fail in my code
17:32-!-Pikka [PikkaBird@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:34<Accatyyc>i wrote code that failed once..
17:34<Accatyyc>aaah the memories
17:35<Accatyyc>we have a song for this at uni
17:36<Accatyyc>"When I find my code in tons of trouble, friends and collegues come to me; speaking words of wisdom - Write in C."
17:36<andythenorth>this is the problem
17:36<andythenorth>industry produces output even with no input...
17:37<andythenorth>I am doing something wrong...
17:38<Accatyyc>lol @ recent posts in the pastebin
17:38<Accatyyc>i'll probably get banned if i paste them here xD
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17:38<frosch123>andythenorth: the production callback does not check availability of cargo at all
17:39<frosch123>"The total amount of cargo waiting cannot go negative. If you specify more than the amount actually waiting, the incoming amount will be zeroed instead."
17:39<frosch123>you have to check that yourself
17:41<andythenorth>frosch123: ok thanks
17:42<andythenorth>I like industry variables 40-42 anyway :)
17:42<andythenorth>they are trustworthy and don't get enough fame
17:43<@Rubidium>I'd say 1A is the most trustworthy variable
17:44<frosch123>but it is somewhat negative
17:44<@Rubidium>but they're all set to go
17:45<Accatyyc>i've seen in some screenshots people have crowded trainstations.. is this some .grf or am i just missing something?
17:45<Accatyyc>crowded with people that is
17:45<frosch123>station grfs can show waiting cargo
17:45<@Rubidium>yes, to both actually :)
17:46<Accatyyc>:o enlighten me
17:46<@Rubidium>you're missing some .grf
17:46<Accatyyc>i googled for it and didn't find anything spectacular.. any clues?
17:48<Accatyyc>thx :) i have the industrial stations renewal but it didn't do the trick
17:48<frosch123>isr can show piles of cargo
17:48<Accatyyc>yeah i noticed
17:48<Accatyyc>i want the crowds of people though
17:48<asilv>people are not really an industrial cargo...
17:49<Accatyyc>really xD
17:49<asilv>try newstations or canadian stations set
17:49<Accatyyc>yep just found it
17:49<andythenorth>no people in canstations
17:49<andythenorth>far as I remember
17:49<asilv>there are some
17:50<asilv>not at the platplorms, but next to station buildings
17:50<asilv>and parking lots have cars
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17:52<asilv>wierd typo that platplorms, f is not anywhere near p or l
17:53<@Rubidium>well... it definitely depends on you keyboard layout
17:55<andythenorth>right time for bed
17:55<andythenorth>tomorrow I have to battle 28 varaction 2s
17:55<andythenorth>so I need my beauty sleep
17:55<andythenorth>good night
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18:06<Ammler>he, TrueBrain, my first steps in openDUNE fail on missing answers for this nice quesitons, but else, very nice :-)
18:06<@Rubidium>"you need the ..."
18:06<Ammler>yes :-P
18:07<Ammler>a game, I missed...
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18:36<CIA-4>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r17792 /trunk/src/os/macosx/crashlog_osx.cpp: -Fix [FS#3261]: [OSX] Fix (bogus) compiler warnings related to printf argument checking.
18:36<CIA-4>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r17793 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (5 files): -Fix: [OSX] The splash image wasn't displayed if the Quartz video driver was used.
18:36<CIA-4>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r17794 /trunk/ (config.lib src/fontcache.cpp src/fontcache.h src/strings.cpp): -Feature: [OSX] Implement automatic fallback font selection for OSX.
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19:33<AC6000>Sacro, u there?
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19:34<Sacro>AC6000: indeed
19:35<Sacro>not much, you?
19:35-!-Tefad_ is now known as Tefad
19:35<AC6000>same, just trashed a 2 mile long intermodal train :P
19:37<Sacro>heh, nice
19:37<AC6000>67 mph collision with a wall
19:38<AC6000>oh, heres another from earlier :P
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19:53<AC6000>up for some ottd sacro?
19:53<Sacro>AC6000: nah, not tonight, going to bed soon
19:53<Sacro>just waiting for a file copy to finish
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20:11<Eddi|zuHause>90% of the time on the computer is spent watchin the computer do things on its own
20:21<break19>meh.. converting a bi-directional, blocking-signal style rail network, into a path-signal network = pain in the arse.. I've trashed 5 or 6 trains going "why the hell is he stopped there? the path is free! meh, force it" "wtf? why'd he choose -that- line? *crunch*
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20:24<ducky>at least you notice shit is fucked
20:24<break19>I prefer dual (or triple) multi-directional tracks.. my main line is usually a double or triple.. the station feeders are where I go with 1way track signals.. gives my trains much more freedom.. it's a pain in the ass to figure out bad design tho. lol
20:25<ducky>i was playing a game with a friend and i almost tanked my company when I didn't notice my massive oil train got stuck when i converted bidirectional to single directional
20:26<ducky>yup, definatly sit there planning track designs and go, "wow, i'm thinking harder than i do about calculus"
20:26<break19>uh oh.. kwin is.. gone. lol
20:27<break19>so, erm. brb..
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20:36<Eddi|zuHause>break19: what's the problem about that? just start it again...
20:37<break19>Couldnt access a cli in the active login, alt-f2 didnt bring up either, so. lol
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20:37<Eddi|zuHause>then start it from a tty
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>just set the DISPLAY variable
20:38<break19>didnt think about it, besides, my session loads fast enough, that it takes about the same amount of time to relog kde, than switch vts, login, etc.
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>but you kill sll processes
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 18 00:00:34 2009