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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-10-19

---Logopened Mon Oct 19 00:00:10 2009
---Daychanged Mon Oct 19 2009
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03:02<Terkhen>good morning
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04:12<boekabart>tried everything, search forum... no solution for 'svn: Repository moved permanently to ''; please relocate'
04:12<boekabart>svn info :
04:14<boekabart>only for some subfolders, like src\video\cocoa
04:21<boekabart>happens when svn upping from 11127 to 11500
04:26<TrueBrain>boekabart: remove those subfolders and run svn update again?
04:27<boekabart>doesn't help
04:27<boekabart>same happens when snv upping for HEAD to 11127
04:28<TrueBrain>the problem is like this: you send, it is reached by a proxy, it is send to the Apache2 WebDAV, which handles the request
04:28<TrueBrain>now this is not the problem of course, but it is this: all URLs are rewritten to make the Apache2 WebDAV understand what is going on (it is not running on port 80, and else he doesn't understand the request)
04:29<boekabart>https specific problem?
04:29<TrueBrain>certain SVN WebDAV aspects have a secondary link, like 'COPY' and 'MOVE'. This is not rewritten. Here is where Apache2 freaks out and aborts the connection
04:29<TrueBrain>(in results your client gives a bogus error)
04:29<TrueBrain>we tried rewritting the url, it fails .. Apache2 wants something which is impossible to give to him
04:30<TrueBrain>short: Apache2 WebDAV is broken to be used AFTER a proxy
04:30<TrueBrain>so http/https specific, yes
04:30<TrueBrain>what mostly helps for me is to checkout a complete new version
04:30<boekabart>yes, that does help
04:30<TrueBrain>it only happens with 'moves' and 'copies'
04:30<boekabart>but i'm trying to 'upgrade' a patch
04:31<TrueBrain>I understand .. temporary use 'svn://'? :)
04:31<boekabart>svn+ssh would work
04:31<TrueBrain>you don't have a ssh account :p
04:31<boekabart>svn not due to network limitations
04:33<TrueBrain>the NoAI projects notice this problem the most, as they can only access their repos over http/https. I don't really have a solution ...
04:33<TrueBrain>svn diff > temp.patch && svn -R revert . && svn update && patch -p0 < temp.patch :p
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04:34<TrueBrain>oh, and additional to the above problem, internally nothing is https, so Apache also wines that the incoming connection is a http, and the 2nd url in the header is https :p
04:34<boekabart>so http might work better? In that case I could try a proxy
04:34<TrueBrain>you can try, but last time it gave problems too
04:35<TrueBrain>I guess I can try to install
04:36<Ammler>or hg/git....
04:37<boekabart>Ammler: does hg up do merging as well as svn? (better is also OK)
04:38<Ammler>he, don't have real experience to make a statement :-)
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04:43<TrueBrain>boekabart: does it work now?
04:44<boekabart>A media\palette.act svn: Repository moved permanently to ''; please relocate
04:44<TrueBrain>Provider encountered an error while streaming a REPORT response. [500, #0]
04:44<TrueBrain>I love 'clear' errors :)
04:44<boekabart>i'll be back in an hour
04:45<boekabart>hey, http is OK by the way, it seems
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04:50<TrueBrain>then that will be our solution for now, as it fails on REPORT, which is very weird
04:50<TrueBrain>and I have to go .. maybe I will look at it another day :)
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05:15<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17813 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: unify the CargoPacket related coding style
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05:31<fonsinchen>good morning
05:32<Muxy>g'day fon
05:34<fonsinchen>Rubidium: Are you going to accept my proposal about different containers for station and vehicle cargo lists? If yes, you're going to run into problems if you use the CargoList instances as template parameter. You can't use a template parameter's typedefs in the templated class in C++. But maybe I'm wrong and you have a different idea there. Could you elaborate some?
05:35<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: works (for me at least)
05:37<fonsinchen>OK, that works because it has a second tparam. I still don't see the necessity, but I can live with that.
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05:55<@Rubidium>did you know that 50% of CPU time of MoveTo is spent in splitting cargo packets?
05:59<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: for the 'moving' of feeder_share the Tinst is needed
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06:02<fonsinchen>Why don't you make RemoveFromCache and AddToCache virtual? Then you don't need the second tparam. And why is the splitting so expensive? Because of the memory allocation? Shouldn't the pool handle that?
06:04<@Rubidium>making RemoveFromCache/AddToCache virtual made it slower :(
06:04<@Rubidium>the new pool does malloc/free, which isn't bad in general but for cargopackets that are quite short lived it might be troublesome
06:05<fonsinchen>Ah, I thought it had a buffer and did placement new
06:05<@Rubidium>on the other hand, improving the 2000 CPU cycles to 20 CPU cycle would yield 1ms per 2 seconds
06:06<@Rubidium>which is basically negligable
06:06<fonsinchen>This might be a better idea in case of cargopackets. Also the zeroing can be dropped as all the members are initialized by the constructor anyway.
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06:09<fonsinchen>How bad is the effect of virtual AddTo/RemoveFromCache? Basically it has to do vtable lookups, but the class hierarchy is rather shallow so that shouldn't take too long.
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06:10<@Rubidium>a few % IIRC
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06:13<fonsinchen>And of course the time spent in (the old) Append, also when called from MoveTo, depends on the number of different cargopackets in the list. With cargodist and at stations with lots of transfers that number grows.
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06:23<@Rubidium>with static_cast is MoveTo is 2-3% faster
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06:32<@Rubidium>Append (with non-virtual) is 2-8% faster than Append with virtual functions
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06:34<fonsinchen>The question is if that's a station with a single cargopacket (like 90% of the stations without cargodist) or if it's a station with transfers.
06:36<@Rubidium>it's quite an old savegame with a few transfers, but lots of transported cargo
06:38<@Rubidium>so caching is quite a big portion of the relative time spent
06:38<fonsinchen>The number of cargopackets only explodes if you have a lot of transfers. Otherwise there is only the cargo generated at the station itself and that is always merged into a single packet. When loading onto a vehicle there is typically also only one packet then.
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06:41<@Rubidium>so... ottdcoop people... what's the latest *massive* trunk savegame of you that used transfers quite a lot?
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07:03<fonsinchen>Public Server #154 has some transfers
07:03<fonsinchen>and it's horribly slow
07:04<@Rubidium>ottdcoop prozone5 gives me: 17% speed increase in append over virtual AddCache/RemoveCache and 2% for MoveTo
07:05<fonsinchen>So, then let's stop discussing the virtual Add/RemoveCache. You are right there.
07:06<fonsinchen>For now
07:06<@Rubidium>hmm.. ps154 does way more :)
07:06<@Rubidium>w.r.t. cargolists
07:06<fonsinchen>I will come up with it again, when the overall number of packets has been reduced by changing the containers.
07:07<fonsinchen>s/packets/packets that need to be checked in Append/
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07:07<Eddi|zuHause>isn't the template vs virtual part the entire reason why YAPF is way faster than NPF?
07:07<@Rubidium>but reducing the number of packets to check implies that the relative weight of the cache updates gets higher
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07:14<@Rubidium>for PS154: 2% faster MoveTo, 5% faster Append
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08:47*boekabart misses a 'rating' system in the in-game content download system
08:47<boekabart>... for AI's mainly
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, indicators for maturity level and difficulty level...
08:56<boekabart>I suppose it's up to the creator/publisher whether a certain newgrf is in there or not?
08:56<boekabart>like dutch trains, catenary and stuff missing, author's choice?
08:56<SpComb>one shouldn't upload stuff that isn't ones own, no
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>the terms of use say, only an author can upload stuff
08:56<Ammler>the download statistic isn't very helpful
08:57<SpComb>perhaps the author hasn't been bothered to, perhaps they don't want to
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know who's the author of dutch catenary
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he doesn't even know?
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08:57<Ammler>boekabart: just ask in the threads, if there are enough requests, maybe they do :-)
08:58<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: would tell you ;-)
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>why would i bother finding out?
08:59<Brianetta>Xeryus, are you here?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>i already have the file... i'm not really interested in getting it...
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09:00<@Rubidium>how would download statistics ever be useful?
09:00<@Rubidium>Brianetta: given that he's disconnected from his bouncer, very slim chance
09:01<Brianetta>I know he's on a train right now, I was hoping he was using the free wifi
09:02<SpComb>call him and tell him!
09:02<Brianetta>Since calling or texting his Dutch mobile is really expensive
09:03<Brianetta>I mean REALLY
09:03<@Rubidium>and the 'fun' is, it's equally expensive for him to receive it
09:04<Brianetta>He should pick us a UK sim
09:04<@Rubidium>how long is he going to be in the UK and is he going to call/be called
09:05<@Rubidium>no idea how expensive and how much trouble it is to get a sim in the UK
09:07<@Rubidium>e.g. for Japan you need to be a resident to be able to buy a phone with prepaid sim (they don't sell them separately)
09:09<boekabart>Download stats aren't useful, but download rating might be
09:09<boekabart>s/download rating/user rating
09:09*boekabart misses skype's ctrl-up to repair a typo
09:09<boekabart>irc feature request :)
09:10*boekabart also concludes that updating his deepwater patch is virtually impossible - close to a remake
09:10<boekabart>devs, pls stop changing the code so much!
09:11*Belugas keeps on obeying to Sir boekabart
09:13<boekabart>Belugas: don't abuse my remark as an excuse to be lazy
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09:20<@Belugas>lazy... humm....
09:20<@Belugas>i am indeed...
09:23<boekabart>your last commit, 10 weeks old :)
09:23<boekabart>that's older than my son :D
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09:33<Eddi|zuHause>then you sound like you have all night to code ;)
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09:37<@Belugas>toum te doum
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09:46<boekabart>Eddi|zuHause: me? i wish
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09:49<@Belugas>someone sends out his wife when baby is crying...
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09:57<hickop>is there a trick to increase "transported" value of industries or its random ?
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>the "transported" value corresponds to the average station rating
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>strategies to increase station rating are around buried somewhere in the wiki
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>the easiest ones are "have always a train waiting" and "build a statue in the nearby town"
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10:20<boekabart>water_map.h line 151 MakeWater(...) _really_ should be called MakeSea(...)
10:21<boekabart>IsSea, IsCanal, IsRiver but MakeWater, MakeCanal, MakeRiver
10:22<@Belugas>awter been a general description maybe? dunno... could be
10:23<boekabart>nope, look at it: really makes SEA
10:24<boekabart>' _m[t].m3 = WATER_CLASS_SEA; '
10:25<andythenorth>apparently boats in TTDPatch can have different travel speeds for canals / open sea
10:25<andythenorth>kind of interesting no?
10:25<andythenorth>Or maybe a bit too much realism?
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10:41*Belugas would not mind
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11:25<insulfrog>hi all
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11:36<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17814 /trunk/src/cargopacket.h: -Codechange: there's no need to invalidate the cache in the constructor of a CargoList; the list is empty, the CargoList is calloc-ed so all caches are 0.
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14:33<frosch123>Sacro: stop sending spam to openttd addresses
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15:04<Sacro>frosch123: what?
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15:05<frosch123>sorry, i have some danish decease
15:06<Sacro>you're from denmark too eh
15:06<Sacro>!seen Bjarni
15:06<Sacro>@seen Bjrani
15:06<@DorpsGek>Sacro: I have not seen Bjrani.
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15:06<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
15:06<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 5 days, 23 hours, 6 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <Bjarni> Belugas: there is no reason to write to PeterT. We already know he is unable to read anyway :P
15:06<frosch123>you also have some decease, right?
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15:07<Pikkaa>frosch123: disease
15:07<frosch123>hmm, they are quite close, aren't they?
15:08<Pikkaa>ish :)
15:08<Pikkaa>gday andy
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15:13<andythenorth>morning Pikka
15:14<andythenorth>@seen Roujin
15:14<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Roujin was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 5 days, 1 hour, 31 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Roujin> ...and demand everything spoon-fed to them. Anyway, it seems you're not in a helpful mood, so I'll not bother you anymore... :/
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15:17<Sacro> D:
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15:25<Pikkaa>old, Sacro :P
15:25<Pikkaa>doubly old!
15:26*Pikkaa hmms @ this graph
15:26<Sacro>Pikkaa: whyyyyy a class 58 XD
15:26<Sacro>i mean seriosuly
15:27<Sacro>the only fondness i have for them is due to the HO guage modeli hav
15:27<Pikkaa>what's wrong with a class 58?
15:27<Sacro>they were terribel
15:28<Pikkaa>it's good to have /something/ in there
15:28<Pikkaa>and they're different-looking
15:28<Sacro>like an egg timer
15:29<Sacro>alright for general freight i guess
15:29<Pikkaa>for teh coels
15:29<Pikkaa>n stuff
15:29<Sacro> <- whoo
15:29<Sacro>i have that in OO it seems
15:30<andythenorth>what got you two talking about bones?
15:32<Sacro>there's gonna be in UKRS
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15:36<Sacro>TrueBrain: could start specifying 2k/XP/Vista/7 on the download page now
15:38<andythenorth>Heavy Equipment:
15:38<andythenorth>^^ that one's a nice colour too
15:39<Sacro>that's not a 58
15:41<andythenorth>well spotted
15:41<Pikkaa>you're not a 58
15:41<andythenorth>Belugas is not a 58
15:41<andythenorth>Pikkaa is not a 58
15:41<andythenorth>Pikkaa is being greedy with the letter a today though
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15:55<Pikka> wot larfs
15:55<andythenorth>Pikka was abstemious with the letter a....briefly
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15:56<andythenorth>^^ ahem. Charts, not graphs. You just made my inner autist wince
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15:57<Pikka>yes but my inner navigator knows that a chart is a map
15:57<Pikka>but very well!
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15:59<andythenorth>my inner excel just crashed :|
16:00<Pikka>there, fixed.
16:01<andythenorth>your charts might be, but my excel is seriously sulking
16:01<andythenorth>I want charts dammit :x
16:01<Pikka>what did you do to it? :P
16:01<andythenorth>the usual, tried to use the features
16:01<Pikka>ah, that old chestnut
16:02*Pikka uses open office, but in no way feels superior about it
16:04<andythenorth>I fancied a chart of cost-per-ton for FISH, but....another day
16:04<andythenorth>then nfo
16:05<Prof_Frink>What's that got to do with the price of fish?
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16:14<welshdragon>what's that got to do with the price of your mum, Prof_Frink?
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16:22<Dreamxtreme>price of your mum ?
16:26<@Belugas>for anythung else, there's credit card
16:27<welshdragon>that fails so badly, Belugas
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16:30<andythenorth>I have charts too! lookit me, lookit me!
16:32<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17815 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix [SDL]: asynchronious drawing caused extra unresponsiveness during map generation; disable the threading while generating a map
16:34<andythenorth>right time for nfo
16:34<andythenorth>OMG, I am responding to user requests for features :O
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16:36<andythenorth>wish there was a varaction 2 for ships to see if we are sailing at sea, or in a canal
16:37<andythenorth>and also a cb for 'sink this boat'
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16:38<Pikka>gurgle gurgle
16:38<andythenorth>"Boat number 32 sailed too far out to sea and sank"
16:39<frosch123>you want to add triremes to fish?
16:39<andythenorth>I want to add a refit option "Overload dangerously"
16:40<@Belugas>welshdragon : looks like you have been too much intoxicated by the adds ;)
16:40<welshdragon>no, the fact that it's a Mastercard ;)
16:40<boekabart>Rubidium: did you see my remark about 'MakeWater' ?
16:40<andythenorth>cb 15...refitted capacity
16:40<andythenorth>cb 32...32 day callback
16:41<andythenorth>use cb 15 to set capacity to 'Dangerous'
16:41<andythenorth>use cb 32 to give a random 1 in 50 chance of sinking
16:41<andythenorth>*much more fun*
16:43<fjb>Colliding ships would also be fun. :)
16:44<Pikka>andy: "sink" the ship by setting the speed and running cost to 0, and changing the graphics? :P
16:44<fjb>And a monster wave desaster.
16:45<andythenorth>fjb: colliding ships would not be fun :(
16:45<andythenorth>Pikka: it's an idea I guess
16:45<andythenorth>annoying 'your vehicle is lost' messages though?
16:47<Pikka>not if you have it turned off for stopped vehicles and manually stop the ship *shrug*
16:48<andythenorth>OpenTTD is lacking in...evil
16:49<andythenorth>although nfo is definitely not lacking in evil
16:50<andythenorth>oops, forgot to go and code
16:52<andythenorth>oh, something is much harder than I thought :O
16:52-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
16:53<Zuu>Hehe, now petert will make you all learn the forum numbers by heart:
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16:56<Zuu>Personally I don't really mind. I know 29, 32, 33 very well. And if I am not mistaken the problem section is 31.
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16:56<Prof_Frink>Three Four Oh Seven.
16:56<frosch123>Zuu: do you already know the new forums :p
16:56<Zuu>Oh and 65 for NoAI of course.
16:57<Zuu>frosch123: Which new forums? You mean the OpenTTD 4D forum?
16:57<frosch123>no, grf releases and grf technical
16:58<Zuu>Ah, those, nope. But I didn't really know the graphics forum number before anyways.
16:59<Zuu>Though you was talking about hypotetically future forums :-D
16:59<frosch123>the next one will be 69
17:00<frosch123>that is easy, but the subject might be questionable
17:00<andythenorth>I am trying to be unafraid of registers
17:00<Zuu>Better take the easy questions first.
17:00<andythenorth>^^ valid code?
17:01<andythenorth>oops, seen a mistake (embarassed)
17:01<frosch123>andythenorth: don'T mix byte and word access
17:01<andythenorth>that was one mistake
17:01<andythenorth>there's another on the final line
17:02<andythenorth>so chance 85 to 81 and remove
17:02<andythenorth>so change 85 to 81 and remove some 00 00
17:02<andythenorth>no reason to store a simple 0 / 1 flag in anything other than a byte?
17:02<frosch123>well, it is always 1, so no reason to store it at all :p
17:03<andythenorth>oh I see
17:03<andythenorth>well there would be another varaction 2 setting 0
17:03<andythenorth>it would be a branching chain.
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>occasionally, booleans are stored in 32bit-words, for alignment purposes
17:03<frosch123>there is also some comparison comparator which can be used for some simple stuff, but in most cases you are better off with a normal varact2 for the cases
17:05<andythenorth>wiki tells me registers always have the size of 4 bytes. Do I need to care about that here?
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can byte-access that dword, it will only fetch the lowest 8 bit then
17:06<frosch123>store will always write all 4 bytes (zero expanded)
17:06<frosch123>load will always read 4 bytes with the specified shift-right
17:07<frosch123>(i.e. the 8 bit masking is done after the shifting)
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17:08<andythenorth>how do I read from a register? Sorry if I'm being dumb, but I can't see it in the wiki? I know how to do it for special cases like production callback, but they provide built in support, not roll your own...
17:08<frosch123>some 7x variable
17:08<frosch123>7d or 7c or so
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17:09<frosch123>note that storing allows indirect addressing, while loading does not :p
17:10<andythenorth>what implications does that have when coding?
17:12<frosch123>in most cases none, as indirect addressing is hardly needed
17:12<andythenorth>is register 100 specifically for the text stack?
17:12<frosch123>oh, and you could implement indirect addressing with some insane 7e procedure :roll:
17:13<frosch123>100+ registers are write-only
17:13<frosch123>they are used for returning values from callbacks in addition to the usual 15bit result
17:14<frosch123>some cb use them for the text stack, some cb use them for other stuff
17:14<andythenorth>so registers <100 are all available? or are any reserved or strange?
17:15<frosch123>registers 0x00 to 0xff are free for your use, but they are only hold their data during a single callback/spriteresolving
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17:15<frosch123>persistent storage only has 16 registers
17:15<andythenorth>so to share something between callback I need persistent storage?
17:15<andythenorth>is persistent storage shared across the whole grf?
17:15<frosch123>no, 16bytes per industry
17:16<andythenorth>well right now I only need 1 byte :)
17:16<frosch123>err, 16 registers = 64 bytes
17:16<andythenorth>still ok :)
17:16<frosch123>you can access them from both the industry and the tiles
17:17<andythenorth>I just want to set a flag for 'cargo processed since cb 3D last called'
17:17<TrueBrain>[21:36] <Sacro> TrueBrain: could start specifying 2k/XP/Vista/7 on the download page now > Request Forward > Rubidium
17:18<frosch123>i hope you do not want to return cb36 "accept" only once until some cargo is processed
17:18<frosch123>that will very unlikely result in "wanted" behaviour :p
17:20*Pikka thinks newais still have a long way to go :D
17:20<andythenorth>frosch123: what might go wrong?
17:20<Pikka>eg, "don't try to drive an 800 ton train with a 600hp loco straight up a mountain"
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17:21<frosch123>andythenorth: the callback is called for every cargo packet. which means you will end up with about 1 to 5 per train and 1 to 20 per aircraft
17:21<frosch123>(note: per train, not per wagon)
17:22<Pikka>every cargo packet?
17:22<Pikka>you mean every time it tries to unload something?
17:22<frosch123>a cargopacket is a certain amount of cargo from one source, that is unloaded from one wagon in one gradual loading step
17:23<frosch123>so, in most cases the loadamount, but if the cargo is from multiple sources, it could also only be 1
17:23<Pikka>I'm not sure what you're getting at. :P still, try it and see, andy? :)
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>unless you have extensive use of transfers or cargo destinations, most wagons will have 1 cargopacket, that is split up at every unloading step
17:25<andythenorth>ach I've led you guys down the wrong's cb 35 (production change) that I want the flag for :)
17:26<andythenorth>"if cargo was processed since cb 35 last called, try production change, else ignore"
17:27<frosch123>then you could as well use the variable for cargo_produced_last_month
17:27<frosch123>or _this_month? no idea
17:27<Pikka>except processed != produced :P
17:27<andythenorth>Pikka: nail, meet head
17:28<andythenorth>and one hit the other
17:28<andythenorth>or something
17:28<frosch123>well, i assumed everything that goes in, comes out somewhere
17:28<Pikka>not necessarily
17:28<Pikka>on the other hand
17:28<andythenorth>nope, some just goes in. and stays
17:28<andythenorth>Forever :O
17:29<Pikka>there is a "Date when cargo was last accepted". but it's short-format days-since-1920.
17:29<andythenorth>well thanks chaps, but problem for tomorrow I think
17:30<andythenorth>the code I have now works, but improving it would be...fairer to the player
17:33<andythenorth>time for bed!
17:33<andythenorth>good night
17:33<frosch123>night andy
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17:47<Terkhen>good night
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18:16<Pikk>avast ye
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18:55<Sacro>22/3/10 for VS 2010
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