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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-11-03

---Logopened Tue Nov 03 00:00:38 2009
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02:55<@Rubidium>bah... why must canonical release an ubuntu vista edition?
02:56<SirSquid1ess>... a what?
02:56<@Rubidium>a version that breaks way more than it fixes
03:05<dihedral>Rubidium, 9.10? ^^
03:09<@Rubidium>no, 10.5 ofcourse!
03:09<@Rubidium>bah... lag :(
03:19*Rubidium ponders taking dial-up for its incerased speeds; it ought to beat Fetched 176kB in 3min 7s (937B/s)
03:22<dihedral>depends on the location of those 176KB
03:23<@Rubidium>by car, when all traffic lights are green and there's no traffic, yet staying with speed limits: less than those 3min 7s
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03:33<@Rubidium>woei... speeds have gone up by a factor 1000+ again :)
03:34<@Rubidium>and pings down by a factor 100
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04:52<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17961 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document: also document the hanging of SDL on quiting if it 'talks' to PulseAudio via its virtual ALSA device
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06:13<SmatZ> hehe :) (only german/slovak)
06:14<Forked>hehe :( I feel excluded
06:16<dihedral>the vid is great SmatZ
06:16<SmatZ> oh this one is in english :)
06:16<SmatZ>dihedral: :-)
06:19<yorick>ooh, winston smith in one of the scans :D
06:22<SmatZ>really? :)
06:25<yorick>also notice the backward spelling of Orwell on the next name
06:25<@Rubidium>you didn't know that already?
06:25*yorick gone
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06:38<Fast2>SmatZ: The video is made by the "Piratenpatei".
06:46<@Rubidium>Fast2: thus? It's not true by definition and whatever the current government says is true by definition?
06:51<Fast2>Rubidium: I don't think I said this. (As far as I comprehended/got your message)
06:54<@Rubidium>with the bashing of those pirate(partie)s lately saying something is made by them gives it a "it's bad/incorrect/a lie" hidden message
06:54<SmatZ>Fast2: just another bonus point for them ;)
06:55<SmatZ>Rubidium: bashing? not here... but maybe it would be better if they were "bashed", they are hardly ever in news here :-/
06:55<SmatZ>(our piratenpartei)
06:55<@Rubidium>it's more in general; the whole pirate bay stuff
06:56<Fast2>Rubidium: The opposite is true for me (because I like the Piraten)
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07:05<@Rubidium>Fast2: I don't like the legalised blackmailing in the media industry either
07:07<@Rubidium>(or in the banking or in the healthcare or ...)
07:08<SmatZ>blackmailing in healthcare?
07:09<SmatZ>prescripting intentionaly pills from one given company (who sponsored your "study" holidays?)
07:10<@Rubidium>"you won't get paid if you don't do this or that"
07:11<@Rubidium>be it prescribe the cheapest drugs even if they obviously don't work or saying that they don't insure you at all because you have a pre-existing condition, e.g. astma
07:11<Forked>I read "laid" and not "paid" .. but I guess it's all the same
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
07:13<SmatZ>[13:11:08] <Rubidium> be it prescribe the cheapest drugs even if they obviously don't work or saying that they don't insure you at all because you have a pre-existing condition, e.g. astma <== that's why I don't support commercial health insurance
07:13<SmatZ>similiar, paying higher car insurance because you are <30 years old
07:13<SmatZ>but if you had to pay because you are black, it would be discrimination
07:14<SmatZ>or woman :-p
07:14<@Rubidium>or old!
07:14<SmatZ>hehe very true
07:14<TrueBrain>or SmatZ! (what is the conversation about? :p)
07:15<SmatZ>TrueBrain: disadvantages of commercial insurrance
07:15<TrueBrain>ah ;)
07:18<SmatZ>though then politics use arguments like "why should people pay higher insurrance when there are smokers who take more money from the system?"
07:18<SmatZ>attacking on right-winded people's envy
07:18<SmatZ>which is funny as envy is often thought as property of socialists :-p
07:19<SmatZ>society (nation) should work as whole, support each other
07:20<@Rubidium>oh SmatZ... with those ideas your a communists in the US (though I agree)
07:20<SmatZ>when there are too many smokers, it's a problem of society, and there are other ways to reduce smoking (ban of ads, higher taxes)
07:20<fonsinchen>society and nation are different concepts - especially in this context. The difference is exactly that between a left-wing and a right-wing argument ...
07:21<SmatZ>for extreme-right-wing it's a difference
07:22<fonsinchen>nation doesn't include immigrants and defines inclusion by heritage.
07:22<Noldo>why should people pay higher taxes because of the self inflicted health problems of the smokers?
07:22<fonsinchen>society defines inclusion by place of living
07:23<fonsinchen>I mean the term "nation" and the term "society"
07:24<SmatZ>Noldo: because they live in the same country
07:24<SmatZ>(to avoid use of society/nation)
07:25<SmatZ>as a note, I am not smoker
07:26<SmatZ>also, once you start to differentiate between smokers and non-smokers, there is just a little step to differentiating between people with "healthy" and "unhealthy" genes
07:26<Noldo>one is an action a person chooses and one is not
07:26<SmatZ>(also, when someone smokes 1 cigarette/week, is he a smoker? 1/year? 1/day?)
07:27<SmatZ>Noldo: then you can say overweight people should pay more
07:27<SmatZ>then you have to decide whether it's because of their genes or not
07:27<SmatZ>and blah blah
07:27<SmatZ>it's simplest not to differentiate between people
07:28<SmatZ>also most equal for all
07:28<@Rubidium>Noldo: but is being young/old or having astma something you choose to be?
07:28<SmatZ>apart from spokers consuming more money from the healthcare system, I don't think their life is any better (and they die younger anyway)
07:29<Noldo>Rubidium: I sense a trap, but no it isn't
07:29<SmatZ>I am using this example of smokers because they are often thought as group of people who should pay higher health insurrance
07:29<SmatZ>and I am explaining why I think it's bad attitude from the beginning
07:30<@Rubidium>Noldo: then why are people with astma or people with old-age diabetes not accepted for certain health insurances?
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07:31<Noldo>because insurance is a business?
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07:32<@Rubidium>if you did something yourself that's extremely dangerous and get sick because of that it's, in my opinion, another story than when it's because of your body being stupid
07:32<SmatZ>and that's what we are talking about - is it good it is a business?
07:32<SmatZ>sorry, have to go :-x
07:32<SmatZ>I will read logs :)
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07:33<TrueBrain>bye SmatZ :)
07:34<Chris_Booth>just to add to the fat people argument, lots of airline in the USA have started to charge fat people for 2 seats
07:34<Chris_Booth>is that a good or a bad thing?
07:37<@Rubidium>Chris_Booth: if the fatness isn't caused by a valid medical condition I'd say it's fair, although... it might be better to just weigh them with clothes and luggage and calculate the price based on that
07:39<Forked>it's not the airlines fault that some people weigh more than others.. should they take the extra cost? life is unfair, not just for the heavy people.
07:40<Sacro>damn i misesd a good convo
07:41<Sacro>i love discussing the US healthcare system
07:41<Chris_Booth>well Forked the airlines dont charge small people less do they? well in a sence they do with kids but with if your a dwarf or a midget you still pay the same
07:41<Sacro>< socialist
07:41<Sacro>i hate the arbitrary weight limits on luggage
07:41<Sacro>how come if it is 5kg over it gets penalised
07:41<Noldo>Sacro: socialist by US standards?
07:41<Sacro>wheras if i'm a fat bastard it's fine
07:42*Sacro will next try eating his luggage
07:42<Chris_Booth>well you know the sollution wear all your luggage
07:42<Sacro>it'd be cosy
07:43<Chris_Booth>what i find most annoying is flight to skiing resorts airoprts they charge you more to take your skiis on the plane
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08:20<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: did you ever bring skis to a non-skiing resort?
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: increased demand allows for increased prices. primary rule of capitalism
08:25<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's the secondary rule! Primary rule is: short term profit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: "primary rule" doesn't mean there's only one such rule
08:26<+glx>and don't care about long term problems ;)
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>it could be a set of primary rules
08:27<@Rubidium>but then they would be equal
08:27<@Rubidium>and there would be a monopoly
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11:08<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17962 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt readme.txt): -Fix: some spelling
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11:59<oskari89>Can automatic train turning when waiting a green light on signal be turned off?
11:59<oskari89>It's very annoying.
11:59<oskari89>On OpenTTD.
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12:02<yorick>oskari89: if you're using path signals, use normal ones
12:02<yorick>they turn faster
12:02<yorick>which makes it surprisingly less annoying
12:03<yorick>because they turn back too
12:04<oskari89>I'm using path singals always.
12:04<yorick>there's your disadvantage
12:05<yorick>they don't automatically turn back instantly with path signals
12:05<yorick>just don't use path signals when normal signals would do exactly the same
12:06<oskari89>It cannot be configured?
12:06<oskari89>No turning at all?
12:07<yorick>it probably can
12:08<Rhamphoryncus>I missed half this conversation..
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12:09<yorick>17:59 < oskari89> Can automatic train turning when waiting a green light on
12:09<yorick> signal be turned off?
12:10<Rhamphoryncus>Ah, there's a variable for that
12:11<Rhamphoryncus>I actually wish it was faster too. What happens more often is they turn because some track gets destroyed. Then I have to manually turn them back
12:11<yorick>they turn back automatically with normal signals
12:12<Rhamphoryncus>they'd eventually turn back with path signals.. just takes very long
12:12<Rhamphoryncus>And this is with one-way path signals
12:16<oskari89>Is the variable on config?
12:18<Rhamphoryncus>it's an internal one, you can set it from the config file or from the console
12:18<thingwath> (the first one in the table)
12:18<Rhamphoryncus>beware, it's for turning around at *any* "waiting for a path", so you'll probably get lots of unintended reversals
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12:30<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17963 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: some documentation style
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12:36<Rhamphoryncus>huh, all the attachment links give me 404. Any idea why?
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12:37<yorick>because attachement.php gives you 404?
12:37<Rhamphoryncus>thanks :P
12:38<yorick>or getfile or whatever this script is called
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12:41<@Rubidium>use instead of that ancient URL
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>Nov 3 18:41:16 johannes-i kernel: MCE: The hardware reports a non fatal, correctable incident occurred on CPU 0.
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>Nov 3 18:41:16 johannes-i kernel: Bank 1: 9400400000000152
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>what do i do with such remarks?
12:43<@Rubidium>is the hardware still within warranty?
12:44<@Rubidium>if so, definitely let them make a notification about this that if your proc breaks on end-of-warranty+1 you can claim you've reported it before the warranty ended and they deemed it unneeded to replace
12:44<_ln>"dear vendor, my computer has a 9400400000000152, can i get a new one through warranty?"
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>no, my computer is definitely out ouf warranty for years
12:48<@Rubidium>then implement/review your backup strategy of that machine
12:48<Rhamphoryncus>okay, figured it out. If I click on start watching it gives me an ancient version of the page, with broken links
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>my backup strategy is "i need a new one" for years...
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>maybe around christmas-ish
12:50<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: so where do I report bug tracker bugs to?
12:51<@Rubidium>TrueBrain :)... uhm, no the website 'section' of the tracker; see the dropdown in the 'toolbars'
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12:58<Rhamphoryncus>thanks, done
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13:05<TrueBrain>Rubidium: what?
13:06<TrueBrain>Rubidium: remember that you worked on the links for files, not me ;)
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13:07<@Rubidium>remember that you worked on flyspray behind proxy?
13:07<yorick>t is like r, but one to the right
13:07<TrueBrain>in this case I think it has to do with your changes :)
13:07<@Rubidium>my links for files just added a piece of bogus ignored data to the links
13:08<TrueBrain>somehow the links are relative instead of absolute :p
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13:09<@Rubidium>the 'task' part is missing for some stupid reason
13:09<TrueBrain>in the first case the link already contains the 'task' part .. in the second it doesn't
13:16<@Rubidium>might be fixed now
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13:45<Luukland>Loads of clients tonight :S
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r17964 /trunk/src/lang/ (estonian.txt greek.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: estonian - 27 changes by KSiimson
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: greek - 1 changes by fumantsu
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13:50<Luukland>180 clients, 45 on mine servers :S
13:50<Luukland>25% :p
13:50<Luukland>Still no 100% xD
13:52<@Rubidium>yet they're all using mine!
13:52<andythenorth>hai hai
13:52*Rubidium runs
13:53<Luukland>not a mine >_<
13:53*Luukland dives down
13:53<Luukland>Seems like some other server stole our servers settings
13:53<Luukland>with solid starting times >_<
13:59<TrueBrain>Rubidium: see see! Now it is at the correct time :) /me is happy :)
14:00<frosch123>TrueBrain: let's see what happens in 5 months
14:00<TrueBrain>that is in the future; I don't care about the future right now :p
14:10<Rhamphoryncus>anybody got a favourite timetable separation patch that applies cleanly to trunk or cargodist?
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15:04<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17965 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Codechange: query string window uses pure nested widgets.
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15:13<frosch123>it does not rain today, right?
15:13<kingpin>evening ;)
15:14<kingpin>no, not raining anymore
15:14<@Rubidium>it does rain today!
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: bloody does rain today. don't ask. I ride a bike to work.
15:15<andythenorth>I am just reading about new airports (try 2) which looks nice
15:15<andythenorth>@seen yexo
15:15<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <Yexo> it's either a percentage of the maximum reliability or a fixed number of days
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15:16<frosch123>yup, but still lots to do :)
15:16<andythenorth>just reading the spec...trying to figure out if airports can be built entirely on water...or if they must transcend the coastline
15:17<frosch123>of course they can be built entirely on water
15:17<andythenorth>thought so
15:17<frosch123>though maybe you cannot distinguish sea, canal and river. not sure though
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15:19<andythenorth>anyone thought about newgrf docks? would there be any point to them?
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15:19<frosch123>for sure not this year
15:19<andythenorth>would they actually be fun / useful though?
15:20<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yes, yes, in try 1 it would be an extension-ish of airports which would then be extended for road stations and finally possibly even for train stations (routing trains over your own layout)
15:20<andythenorth>so docks and road stations would move to a state machine?
15:20<frosch123>but that will cause lots of trouble for pathfinders, similiar to the current pbs-multiple-waypoint-for-station-issue
15:21<frosch123>andythenorth: docks more likely than roadstops, and both far more likely than trainstations
15:22<andythenorth>that's fine by me. I'm not much in favour of state machine for roadstops or docks
15:22<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17966 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17965): The Default button should be disabled in some cases rather than the Ok button.
15:22<@Rubidium>andythenorth: thinking about something doesn't imply it gets implemented
15:22<@Rubidium>people are thinking about making OpenTTD fully 3D, not likely it happens
15:22<andythenorth>If only thinking = code, my projects would be much more done
15:23<@Rubidium>people are/were thinking about writing OpenTTD in C#/Java, yet I haven't seen such an implementation
15:23*Alberth thinks about writing a direct brain -> computer interface
15:23<andythenorth>Alberth: I thought the same, so it's done already
15:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17967 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Specify that the buttons of the query string window should be equal in size.
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15:33<SmatZ>Noldo: airlines aren't healthcare
15:34<SmatZ>healthcare should be available for all people to supply "base life quality" or so
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15:42<MyCatVerbs>Rubidium: Urgh, why would they want that? That would be mindblowingly slow.
15:43<MyCatVerbs>Not that I'm saying C# and Java are both ridiculously slow or anything, but OpenTTD is written to benefit from the set of optimisations that GCC can be gotten to perform easily.
15:44<Alberth>C and C++ are out, C# and Java are in, perhaps?
15:44<MyCatVerbs>Rather than the optimisations that a VM will perform for you, even.
15:46<frosch123>MyCatVerbs: i would guess 60% of all programmers know only one language, and think it is the best to rule them all
15:46*Alberth offers a 'yeah' to Belugas
15:46<MyCatVerbs>frosch123: Really? That sounds depressing.
15:47<@Belugas>anyone knows of an api in windows to call, in order to verify if an OLE object is registered WITHOUT having to deal with registries?
15:47*frosch123 never dealt with ole stuff
15:47<MyCatVerbs>frosch123: I have no particular foundation for this belief, but I suspect that the majority of programmers actually know at least one and a half. Namely, whatever they write serverside (annoyingly often, PHP), plus half-knowing javascript.
15:48*Alberth never programmed a Win* machine
15:48<MyCatVerbs>On account of webapps happening to be cheaper to make than native GUI apps, and in a way more stable.
15:48<ikarus2k>frosch123: dunno, I know actionscript (yey!) and a bit of a couple others (php, JS). they all suck
15:48<Xaroth><@Rubidium> people are/were thinking about writing OpenTTD in C#/Java, yet I haven't seen such an implementation << saw it too, the C# code wasn't optimized enough to run anything semi-decent
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15:48<frosch123>ok, i thought more of applications than webpages
15:49<Xaroth>for performance stuff, the lower level you go, the better it gets.
15:49<Alberth>after getting the algorithms right :)
15:50<+glx>screen repaint is nasty with C# (it's weirder on vista)
15:50<MyCatVerbs>ikarus2k: oh, you just started a holy war. :)
15:50<frosch123>however, the whole windows world does not know awk, sed, yacc and co; so they write every simple text processing/code generation in c/c++/java/c# ...
15:50<ikarus2k>MyCatVerbs: lol, that was inevitable ;)
15:50<MyCatVerbs>ikarus2k: namely, I really really really honestly do think that you're incorrect about javascript sucking. :)
15:50<Xaroth>C#, like java, as easy as they are, don't have the performance that you need for a game like ttd
15:51<Sacro>C# does
15:51<MyCatVerbs>ikarus2k: 1. get Firebug, 2. learn that you now have a Javascript REPL, 3. learn how much fun a REPL is to use, 4. rejoice!
15:51<MyCatVerbs>Xaroth: Oh, you'd be surprised. You have to mess with the structure of your program a little, though.
15:51<Xaroth>a little?
15:52<ikarus2k>MyCatVerbs: :P. I hate having to code in 3-4 different languages, just cuz people are scared of flash
15:53<MyCatVerbs>Xaroth: Yes. "A little" in the same sense that programmers use the term "not trivial". :)
15:53<MyCatVerbs>ikarus2k: I like switching languages, keeps me on my toes. ;)
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15:53<Xaroth>a little as in, it takes a whole different approach at designing yer app :P
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15:53<MyCatVerbs>But actionscript isn't different enough from Flash for it to be a huge pain in the arse, is it?
15:54<ikarus2k>MyCatVerbs: ? flash uses actionscript
15:54<MyCatVerbs>Brainfart. s/Flash/javascript/
15:54<ikarus2k>MyCatVerbs: though coding is nicer in Flex
15:54<MyCatVerbs>Actionscript is based on some particular version of the ECMAscript standard, which is based off javascript.
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15:55<ikarus2k>MyCatVerbs: neh, they're both based on ecma
15:55<ikarus2k>guys, can you have a look at some suggestions of mine for OpenTTD
15:55-!-PeterT [] has joined #openttd
15:55<ikarus2k>I don't want to post duplicates
15:56<MyCatVerbs>ikarus2k: Ah, no. Javascript predates ECMAscript by quite some time. :)
15:56<ikarus2k>and would like your input too:
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15:56<MyCatVerbs>ikarus2k: your gameplay idea #3 amuses me.
15:57<MyCatVerbs>Because of the bug where, if you buy shares in another company...
15:57<MyCatVerbs>And they buy shares in you...
15:57<MyCatVerbs>The share prices of both companies tank, and everybody loses all their money :D
15:57<Alberth>"advanced configuration in tab, not tree view for Interface, Construction ... " ha ha!, they were that way before I changed to tree view :p
15:57<ikarus2k>lol, forgot about that
15:58<Xaroth>Alberth: I actually prefered tabs though, but I learnt to live with treeview :)
15:58<ikarus2k>Alberth: tree view can get quite cluttered :(
15:59<Alberth>problem was that tabs are not easily expanded with new options, and with sub-tabs.
16:00<Alberth>I still cannot find the option when I need one though :(
16:01<Alberth>"station window should display "Supplies: ..." below "Accepts: ..." " it does this, doesn't it?
16:01<ikarus2k>"I still cannot find the option when I need one though :(" lol
16:01<ikarus2k>Alberth: no, they are not there for me, only "Accepts; .. "
16:02<ikarus2k>did I miss a setting/option?
16:02<Alberth>oh, not the station picker window, but the goods-at-station window. oh, that may be the case yes
16:04<frosch123>Alberth: it needs a filter box to auto-expand/collapse/hide :)
16:04<ikarus2k>station picker? I mean the window that opens when you click the station
16:04<Alberth>under ratings, the list is there, it seems
16:05<ikarus2k>yep, but it'd be useful to simply be next to "Accepts: ..."
16:07<Alberth>the suggestion is valid thus.
16:08<Alberth>good night
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16:09*Rhamphoryncus plots his own timetable autoseparator, because obviously we don't have enough variants yet
16:12<Rhamphoryncus>And not just because I haven't gotten any others to apply & build cleanly yet..
16:15<Alberth>use an old enough version of trunk :p
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with the one i updated?
16:18<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: I haven't found it yet
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: it's on the first page, called "improved timetable management"
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>and in the end of that thread
16:20<Rhamphoryncus>The patches at the start make it sound like it's specific to cargodest, based on their naming
16:20<Rhamphoryncus>I do already have the thread open; currently on page 4
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it was originally based on cargodest, but it does not depend on it in any kind
16:22<Rhamphoryncus>So am I supposed to use the first or third attachment?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>neither, you should go to the end of the thread, and take the attachment there
16:23<Rhamphoryncus>nm, found the right one
16:27<Rhamphoryncus>still got a few rejects. Not as bad though
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16:48<@Belugas>found it
16:48<@Belugas>stupidly simple
16:49<@Belugas>well... at least in Delphi
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16:52<@Belugas>Result := ClassIDToProgID(<PLACE_YOUR_CLSID_HERE>) <> '';
16:52<@Belugas>that's it
16:52<@Belugas>if the call fails, your system does not have the said CLSID
16:52<@Rubidium>Result := RunningAway()
16:59<@Belugas>almost :D
16:59<@Belugas>you don't need the '()' for a function that has no params in DElphi ;)
16:59<@Belugas>such a beautiful language
17:00<ikarus2k>isn't it just good practice to include the brackets?
17:00<@Belugas>in Delphi? no, it's a compile failure
17:01<@Belugas>depending on the setting of the compiler...
17:01<@Belugas>it does work on mine, but it's a bit of a tweaked one...
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17:01<@Belugas>so... i change my assertion
17:01<@Belugas>no, it's not a compile failure.
17:02<@Belugas>and personnally, i don't think it's a good practice.
17:02<@Belugas>if there is nothing to specify, do not specify anything
17:02<@Belugas>it's less confusing that way
17:02<@Belugas>now about the difference between a function with no argument and a variable...
17:02<@Belugas>name your stuff accordingly
17:03<ikarus2k>hmmm ... I like keeping them just to single out functions easier
17:03<@Belugas> _bUseSIMDll := False;
17:03<@Belugas> _bSIMDLLSystemAvailable := VerifySIMDLLSystemAvailability;
17:04<ikarus2k>(don't know a grain of Delphi for that matter)
17:04<@Belugas>ikarus2k, it's a personal choice
17:04<@Belugas>nothing more , nothing less
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17:05<ikarus2k>was just making smalltalk :P
17:07<@Belugas>when it's a choice shared by colleagues, it's a standard
17:07<@Belugas>you were
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17:07<@Belugas>looks like me not
17:08<Zuu>Has anyone seen a parking lot like this: before? It is obviously in the states or Canada. Not so much trucks though. ;-)
17:08<@Belugas>and NOW it's a time for leaving (not related to Zuu)...
17:08<Zuu>Night Belugas
17:10<Rhamphoryncus>Zuu: Doesn't look familiar. It does look more artistic than practical though
17:10*Belugas thinks about a canadian parking. dunno
17:10*Belugas is gone
17:10<frosch123>night belugas
17:10<frosch123>night everyone
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17:10<ikarus2k>g'night guys
17:10<Zuu>Looks more like something at some tourist place than something you see very often.
17:10<Zuu>Especially with the statue in the middle.
17:11<ikarus2k>yeah, not that weird though
17:11<Zuu>If one only knew where on google maps/earth to start to look :-D
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17:12<Rhamphoryncus>Given the width, you could probably square out the corners, then add a partial double row down the middle, and get probably a 50% increase in capacity
17:13<Rhamphoryncus>You'd lose the statue though
17:14<Zuu>Yea, it is not very effective on land use, but then tell me how are americans effective on land use? :-) (no offence)
17:14<@Rubidium>Zuu: English speaking countries
17:15<ikarus2k>actually, I quite like how wastefull the americans are with their roads
17:15<ikarus2k>8-10 lane highways
17:16<ikarus2k>not even mother russia had those
17:16<ikarus2k>and it was almost a law to make things huge
17:16<Zuu>I'm still amazed that I can only see 2 trucks on the picture. That is not really North American with so few trucks. ;-)
17:17<ikarus2k>well, i see a merc and an audi
17:17<ikarus2k>it's most def USA, might just be a better neighbourhood ;)
17:17<@Rubidium>Zuu: 2 Telegraph Hill Blvd, San Francisco
17:18<Zuu>Thanks Rubidium, you're good. Or you know someone who know someone who know.. :-)
17:18<@Rubidium>hmm... I've been there (on a bike)
17:18<Zuu>Or you just have been there..
17:19<@Rubidium>the parking was dark and empty when I was there though
17:21<Zuu>Hmm, why is all/most google earth images on the suroundings and not on the traffic solution... :-s Why don't they realize that traffic solutions are interesting :-)
17:22<Zuu>But it seams like you get a good view from there.
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>i find it more annoying that google maps can't show you tram or bus lines when plotting a route
17:23<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: seconded
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17:23<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:23<ikarus2k>Rubidium: do you know anything about the California High speed rail line?
17:23<Zuu>Yea, that is also annoying. Good thing. Gothenburg (our scenod largest city) got a route planer for walk and bike traffic.
17:24<Zuu>But that only helps if you live there...
17:24<Zuu>Which most people do not do.
17:26<@Rubidium>ikarus2k: besides that it won't be happening?
17:26<ikarus2k>is it officially dead?
17:27<@Rubidium>oh... they apparantly voted for it... crazy money spending Californians
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>that was before they ran out of money?
17:28<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes
17:28<@Rubidium>but *any* bill that increases taxes gets automatically rejected, so... I really doubt that they can keep paying for it
17:28<ikarus2k>I hope Obama will jump in and save things
17:29<MyCatVerbs>Rubidium: nah, all he has to do is cut the entire Navy, budget solved. :)
17:29<@Rubidium>putting federal money in a bottomless pit doesn't save them, it just keeps them longer afloat
17:29<MyCatVerbs>Or, more likely, just print bills.
17:30<@Rubidium>MyCatVerbs: a) California doesn't have a navy, b) California, or the US for that matter, controls the printing of money
17:30<ikarus2k>I really had hoped for high speed rail in america
17:30<MyCatVerbs>Rubidium: oh sorry, ikarus2k mentioned Obama, I jumped in without checking the upscroll. I thought you were talking about something at the Federal level.
17:33<@Rubidium>ikarus2k: cheap petrol + cheap cars + cheap aircraft => trains aren't profitable
17:33<@Rubidium>and the distance is just huge
17:34<ikarus2k>that should make it more profitable
17:34<MyCatVerbs>Petrol won't stay cheap. For freight, the long distances will amplify the benefits many times over.
17:35<ikarus2k>how about the acela express?
17:35<ikarus2k>that seems to be holding on well
17:35<ikarus2k>wikipedia says it's even had an increase in passengers lately
17:35<MyCatVerbs>And frankly, we all know that there exists nothing else in the domain of our lord Sawyer as profitable as a half-kiloton monorail train blasting its way across flat plains with an enormous load of coal. :)
17:36<ikarus2k>^^^ =))
17:36<Zuu>The hopes are not that high. I was in Vancouver, which is on the other side of the border up north. This summer they finished a new sky train line (like metro but most of their is above ground), but they havn't built any longer stations than their currently very short stations on their other lines. The trains are just three cars long and the platforms does not have room for more cars. It is driverless so they can probably hav
17:36<Zuu>e a quite short margin between the trains but still their trains are very short. So it has been a nice thing for the existing commuters, but they will not be able to take any major market shares with it from the car driving population.
17:36<@Rubidium>ikarus2k: much shorter distance, at least Washington-NY. Though taxi+aircraft is about as fast as acela, some 15 minutes faster with the train or so)
17:36<@Rubidium>even then, ever seen what Los Angeles actually is?
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17:37<ikarus2k>from g. earth, reminds me a bit of a borg cube
17:38<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Make is failing with "Error 2", but there's no error message. (This is after I tried to update Eddi's patch)
17:38<Zuu>MyCatVerbs: Actually if I am not mistaken the average speed on freight is higher in the states than in Europe. But I'm not 100 sure.
17:38<Zuu>(on rail that is)
17:38<@Rubidium>a large number of smaller towns with, AFAIK, not really a public transportation network to speak of
17:39<ikarus2k>oh man, that's such an oppurtunity
17:39<@Rubidium>Zuu: wouldn't be strange; those huge trains going non-stop from east-to-west because there's (almost) no passenger transportation
17:39<ikarus2k>there was this tale of 2 shoemakers going to india
17:39<Rhamphoryncus>Is there some way to tell where make is failing, or trace the commands it's executing?
17:39<ikarus2k>the frist reported back home "what the hell am i gonna do here, nobody is wearing shoes"
17:39<Zuu>And not 4 different electricity systems and problems with train driver license only being valid in each member state is it is in Europe/EU.
17:40<ikarus2k>the other was exhalted "this is great, so many people to sell shoes too"
17:40<Rhamphoryncus>ah, make -d
17:40<ikarus2k>Zuu: and nevertheless, we have intl high speed rail :)
17:41<Zuu>I was more refering to goods trains in the EU.
17:41<Zuu>But sure
17:41<Zuu>Though, up north we are still waiting for it.
17:42<ikarus2k>I'm reallly curious what bombardier will come up with these years
17:42<ikarus2k>they've been buying EU train builders like crazy
17:43<ikarus2k>they should be done combining the different technologies by now
17:43<ikarus2k>(i hope)
17:43<ikarus2k>then again, wait 1-2 years and China will present the fruits of its recent purchases ;)
17:44<@Rubidium>a bankrupt US?
17:44<@Rubidium>a worthless dollar?
17:44<ikarus2k>they wont let that happen
17:44<ikarus2k>they need the market
17:45<ikarus2k>(i was talking about the high speed trains they bought, from about every major manufacturer, 60pieces each)
17:47<@Rubidium>why would they want high speed trains when they have working maglev?
17:47<Zuu>Oh, Bombadier put VHS to a new meaning - Very High Speed :-)
17:48<ikarus2k>Rubidium: cuz thats too expensive, eve for them
17:48<ikarus2k>they've been struggling to build an extension line
17:48<@Rubidium>tss... it can't be that expensive
17:49<ikarus2k>maybe they just couldnt reverse engineer it ;)
17:49<@Rubidium>those 1000 billion the US 'loaned' from them... should've been enough for some extension
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17:50<ikarus2k>they need that to get Taiwan back ;)
17:51<Rhamphoryncus>ahhh, there we go. By the time I got the failed hunks figured out I forgot that the new files were in a separate tarball
17:51<ikarus2k>Rhamphoryncus: that must suck
17:52<Rhamphoryncus>ikarus2k: wouldn't have been a problem if make gave sane error messages
17:52<ikarus2k>Rubidium: here you go:
17:53<ikarus2k>seems public opinion was at fault
17:53<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: maglev can't be incrementally changed over
17:54<Rhamphoryncus>So it's only relevant to new, isolated lines
17:54<@Rubidium>no, just drag the whole country with the convert too, and presto
17:54<ikarus2k>geesh, those chineze sure have a nack to make even maglevs look cheap
17:54<ikarus2k>(have a look at the interior)
17:54<Rhamphoryncus>pfft. You know damn well that doesn't work on the trains, even in depots. Big pain to switch them over
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17:56<@Rubidium>or... build a nice sign saying "Cht: Tracks 0 2" somewhere in China
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17:58<Zuu>Hehe, I like Bombardiers advertising on their website. It looks exactly like the same kind of advertising that the hearing aid manufacturs put on theri websites. Just that trains is just not really what most people would get/buy.
17:59<Zuu>Nice pictures mixed with specs and sales speak.
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18:03<MyCatVerbs>Zuu: most business-to-business engineering sales sites are like that, AFAIK.
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18:11<fonsinchen>There is a cargopacket constructor which doesn't initialize anything
18:11<fonsinchen>It is intended for save/load
18:12<fonsinchen>as the memory isn't zeroed for cargo packets we need to be sure the saveload system fully initializes the packets ...
18:12<fonsinchen>And that no one else calls this constructor.
18:15<ikarus2k>im off
18:15<ikarus2k>c u guys
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18:16*Rubidium points at valgrind
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18:21<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: I got it working, thanks
18:22<Zuu>Valgrind is indeed a really nice tool.
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18:34<Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 04 00:00:48 2009