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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-19

---Logopened Sat Dec 19 00:00:10 2009
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04:21<edeca>Thanks for fixing that bug Rubidium :)
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04:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18533 /trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp: -Fix: don't refer, in the comments, to a long renamed function
04:24<edeca>I'll have to wait for a nightly to get the fix
04:24<edeca>Today's nightly stops 2 revisions short
04:27<@Rubidium>that happens when it gets build hours before I even began looking at the issue
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05:21<@peter1138>pom te pom
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05:49<Wolf01>hello :O
05:49<frosch123>yeah, seems to work
05:49<Wolf01>snowy saturday... 22 years since last one... 40cm of snow
05:50<frosch123>you do not need any training, do you?
05:50<Wolf01>no, I don't
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06:42<edeca>40cm of snow? Ouch.
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07:16<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, half-tile rivers you say?
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07:17<SpComb^>'tis a platry 62M
07:19<Xaroth>heh, firefox no like that link
07:19<Xaroth>sais it contains errors :P
07:19<Madis>don't like it at all
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07:21<SpComb^>that's what you get with giant screenshots
07:22<Singaporekid>83mb png file D:
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07:23<Wolf01>uhm... wait a moment
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07:24<Wolf01>ok, works
07:24<@peter1138>load average: 10.80, 4.65, 1.85
07:26<Singaporekid>SpComb^: Are you hosting openttd servers?
07:27<Xaroth>peter1138: nice
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07:32<edeca>Wolf01: Nice :)
07:33<SpComb^>Singaporekid: for personal use
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07:52<AshKyd>Has the name generator been messed with? It’s coming up with some rather unfortunate names in 0.7.4.
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07:53<edeca>Names like what?
07:55<AshKyd>Chuntford and Great Sluttown.
07:55<AshKyd>Those are the only two I’ve noticed.
07:55*edeca giggles like a schoolgirl
07:56<AshKyd>Yeah, I giggled too, but it’s a bit inappropriate. BBL.
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: so what kind of chaos would there be, were this a weekday?
07:58<edeca>Some countries handle snow pretty well. The UK is not one of them :)
07:59<Wolf01>I think it would stop the world
07:59<Wolf01>at least here
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08:07<edeca>You can only imagine that conversation he's having
08:07<edeca>"Yeah, it's a swan"
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08:08<SpComb^>just drive along slowly and it will go away
08:08<SpComb^>unless someone clamped it to the rails
08:10<Wolf01> could we have this as a new feature for ottd?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>... or sound the horn really loud
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: you mean this?
08:14<edeca>Surely the solution there is to get out and push?
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08:14<SpComb^>I'll give that drift 8 points score
08:15<SpComb^>but not enough sparks, I think
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09:28<KingJ>Oops, almost missed the train. Generally considered a bad thing to do...
09:29<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: was there ever a reduced-passenger-amounts patch?
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: yes. plenty
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure if it applies to mail, too
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>change the constant to your liking
09:32<SpComb^>hmmyes, I was looking at that code
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>i found 4 close to the limit that a sensible network can handle, 8 or 16 if you want more spaced out networks
09:33<SpComb^>the limit?
09:33<SpComb^>with or without cargodist?
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>with cargodist
09:35<gathers>Hi, I'm working on a patch where you can automate timetables, which means that things like adding/removing orders/vehicles etc should "just work". But where should the on/off flag for such a mode best be placed? As a new bit in v->vehicle_flags or as a bool in the OrderList? (if that matters at all?)
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: for parts of that you might find inspiration in the improved timetable management patch by PhilSophus
09:39<frosch123>every vehicle has its own vehicle_flags, orderlists are shared when using shared orders
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's a little outdated, and (minor) parts have gone into trunk
09:40<gathers>yes, and I want it to be shared so it's activated when cloning vehicles etc
09:40<frosch123>despite of that, from your description it does sounds more like a global/per-company advanced setting than a vehicle/order setting
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09:41<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: I'm actually basing it on the Timetable based separation patch from Magicbuzz. I have the separation working as well.
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: the "manual" separation [aka start dates] have been included in trunk
09:43<gathers>frosch123: my idea is that you should be able to both have automated timetables and normal ones. so I have the flag to be carried over when sharing orders.
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: but the autoseparation was generally viewed as not flexible enough
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: so the timetable management patch introduced the "headway" feature, which allowed to set automatic or manual separation
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09:46<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: what was the major complaints about automatic separation? would something the either gives automatic separation or normal plain timetables also be too inflexible?
09:47<gathers>what I'm most interested in is making the user never have to update the timetable after changing something
09:47<gathers>(if it is automated)
09:50<Alberth>breakdowns are not handled nicely, I believe
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: all implementations i have seen had problems with vehicles switching places in the queue
09:53<Wolf01>uhm... where's ended up the BEGIN/END_TILE_LOOP macro?
09:54<gathers>I'll have to test breakdowns and switching places
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: src/map_func.h:TILE_LOOP()?
09:56<Wolf01>I tried to use it in station_cmd.c but it says it's not declared on the current scope
09:56<Wolf01>I thought it was used by the rail station function too
09:56<Alberth>In the few attempts I have done, it simply takes the first round trip time as *the* length of each interval. If at that trip, the vehicle did not break down or got serviced, it constantly runs increasingly late
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it generally estimates the first round too fast, because of loading times etc. even without breakdowns
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>unless you manually add a delay at the end station, vehicles never catch up.
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>it needs an automatic delay factor (like
09:58<gathers>Alberth: yes, that's why I'm making all times automatically adjusting (loading times can increase and decrease)
09:58<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: I've added that to loading, but only set it fixed at 100 ticks for now
09:58<Alberth>I can also build new roads or demolish old ones
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: yes, but automatically adjusting might also pose problems, if i want to have a fixed cycle length (e.g. to synchronize two lines)
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i said a general "do it." button is not flexible enough
10:00<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: perhaps first get it working for a single line first?
10:00<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: but what if the automatic adjustments can be switched off? then what you have it the old static timetable again
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: but what about having automatic separation, but not automatic timetable adjustment? or what about having asymmetric separation (because of single track with sidings)?
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: the timetable management had a few parts of that working, you really should take a look at that
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>especially the virtual 24h clock or the station timetables could possibly be reused
10:03<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: I have two options, one for separation one for automatic adjustments :P so you can have just one and not the other. But more advanced timetable handling I haven't much thought about
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10:04<gathers>What I want for my games is just a "activate once and then forget" thing for certain lines.
10:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r18534 /trunk/src/station_gui.h: -Doc: Add doxy strings to StationCoverageType enum.
10:06<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: wish I knew the codebase better, I'm sure there are other things that could be used. Even just figuring out how to get a button in the gui took a while :P
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10:16<gathers>let me know if you want to look at the patch now. I think it's working ok but it's not very well tested. I'll post it on the forums later but not sure if it'll be today.
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: especially the synchronizing of separate routes was the problem of the last autoseparation patch
10:19<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: and that is where station timetables could help?
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, manually shifting a vehicle back and the autoadjustment recognizing that change
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10:21<SpComb^>seems to work
10:22<gathers>Eddi|zuHause: I'll have to try it out, but ideally you should get the same effect by pausing a train for a while and then restarting it. Every train should adjust, not just the one you paused?
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure about that...
10:23<@Rubidium>isn't that what headway does?
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes you want to send a train to depot and want to remove it from the separation queue
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>that's what pausing a train should do imho
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yeah, i was trying to convince him...
10:24<gathers>I'll have to read up on headway :(
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: + amount = (amount + 1) >> -cf; <-- that's not what my patch said
10:25<gathers>I'm just too impatient to have some kind of automatic separation I took that part straight out of an old patch. but I would like to rewrite the separation part myself as well.
10:26<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: it's slightly different
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>and what's the - for?
10:26<SpComb^>you set the factor to -x to decrease cargo by 2**x
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>ah, you want to both increase and decrease
10:27<SpComb^>the increase doesn't make much sense, but why not
10:27<SpComb^>maybe someone likes having 10k passengers waiting at a station for sadistic reasons
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: anyway, the patch did "amount = (amount + (x-1))/x" to prevent rounding down to 0
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: and what about the newgrf callback?
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't find it in your patch
10:29<SpComb^>it is there
10:29<SpComb^>there's three calls to TownGenerateCargo
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i see
10:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18535 /trunk/src/pathfinder/ (npf/npf.cpp yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp yapf/yapf_node_rail.hpp): -Fix [FS#2722]: don't account for path reservation costs when entering a signal block via a 'block' signal. This way you won't get double penalties, both red signals and reservation costs, for the block signalled tracks
10:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18536 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#3386]: MSVC warning. Patch by pavel1269
10:32<SpComb^>as for rounding off to zero... hmm
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10:34<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: there was another patch that kept around the fractional values
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>and added them up
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, there were multiple patches ;)
10:35<SpComb^>but I guess you do need it, since you're dealing with 10-100s of houses
10:37<SpComb^>but I think I'll just cheat and bump it up to 1 if it goes to zero
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10:38<Alberth>I thought about that solution too, but you get 1 passenger for a long time (ie between amount == 1 to amount = 2*x -1)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: well, you should return 0 if the original value was 0
10:41<SpComb^>the raw amount is 0-255 / 8 + 1
10:41<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: the original value is never 0
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: even for the newgrf callback?
10:43<SpComb^> if (amt == 0) continue;
10:47<SpComb^>although I guess perhaps the best thing to do would be to just skew the 2^x a bit so that it's not completely exponential, by increasing the range of the raw value to at least 2^x before dividing it
10:48<SpComb^>then you can just use a slightly higher multiplier to compensate
10:51<SpComb^>now where's my graphing calculator...
10:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18537 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix (r17436): Also do not account cargo in statistics, if it was not accepted.
10:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r18538 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp station_gui.h): -Codechange: Split DrawStationCoverageText into a calculation part and a drawing part.
10:54<SpComb^>hmm... a bit too much
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11:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r18539 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Re-use cargolist drawing in StationViewWindow::DrawAcceptedCargo()
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11:22<SpComb^>updated, now it's `amount = (amount + ((1 << -cf) - 1)) >> -cf;`
11:24<SpComb^> <-- output cargo as a function of the cargo factor
11:25<SpComb^>and, well, it seems to work sensibly :)
11:34<SpComb^> <-- or the same data as a table
11:40<SpComb^>so there's a minimum limit as to the lowest you can get town production to, which is presumeably something on the order of the number of houses in the town
11:50<frosch123>you could change "((1 << -cf) - 1)" to something like "(_date & ((1 << -cf) - 1))" or so
11:51<SpComb^>but I suspect that it'll work well enough even without that
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11:53<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: I adjusted the reduction function
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11:55<SmatZ>SpComb^: what is "cf"?
11:55<SpComb^>'cargo factor'
11:55<SpComb^>an integer from -16 to +8
11:55<edeca>Should articulated vehicles overtake?
11:55<SmatZ>shifts with negative counts are undefined
11:56<SpComb^>SmatZ: yes, that's why I do either a << or an >> based on the sign
11:56<SmatZ>ok, I didn't see the code :)
11:56<SmatZ>[17:22:46] <SpComb^> updated, now it's `amount = (amount + ((1 << -cf) - 1)) >> -cf;` <== didn't show you care about that ;)
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11:57<edeca>The option to buy shares is greyed out (nightly), any reason why:?
11:59<frosch123>disabled in advanced settings?
11:59<edeca>Ah, I didn't realise that was possible
11:59<edeca>Got it. THanks.
11:59<edeca>Still no joy with my articulated road vehicle overtaking though, hrrm
12:00<SpComb^>hey, I'm learning how to use git \o/
12:00<SpComb^>merging branches is fun
12:02<frosch123>articulated vehicle cannot be overtaken
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12:11<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: new reduction function
12:14<SpComb^> <-- reference table
12:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18540 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: resulting in better name for 'result'.
12:16<edeca>Hrm, is it a bug if non electric trains wont go to an electric depot when you click "send to depot" ?
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12:19<Gremnon>I don't think so, since Eltrain depots can make non el-trains
12:21<edeca>So that would mean it _is_ a bug
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12:22<edeca>Ah, it could just be that it's not pathfinding far enough ahead
12:22<edeca>Yes, that's it :)
12:23<Gremnon>.... no... A normal depot can only build steam/diesel, and therefore only services them. Electric depots can do everything a normal can, plus electric, so they'll service steam, diesel and electric
12:23<Gremnon>if you want a specific depot, give it an order to go to it
12:24<edeca>The scenario was: upgrade all rail to electric including depots, click station, click "trains that stop here", click "send to depot" and that failed
12:24<edeca>But it seems to be because the depots were too far
12:27<edeca>It seems the "send to depot" is only looking head ~20 tiles ma
12:29<+glx>that's right :)
12:29<Gremnon>which pathfinder are you using? NPF has no issues for me unless it's really far away
12:31<edeca>glx: That's correct? OK then :)
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12:38<planetmaker>edeca: it's looking ahead exactly 20 tiles
12:45<edeca>planetmaker: Well that was a good guess on my part then :P
12:45<edeca>I've got it cleaned up now anyhow, so that's all good
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12:56<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it is not looking ahead 20 tiles, it's looking ahead 20 tiles worth of pathfinder penalty
12:57<@Rubidium>and with YAPF 45 degree corners are already like 3 tiles
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13:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18541 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: Additional map variety option for TGP landscape generator. Evolved from curve map idea from Zephyris.
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>that was quick...
13:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r18542 /trunk/src/window_gui.h: -Codechange: Make nested widget parts obligatory in a window description.
13:05<edeca>Damn it! Looks like I closed the game before it had saved :(
13:06<Alberth>use the last autosave
13:06<planetmaker>ok, missed the PF penalties. Thanks for correcting, RB
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13:06<planetmaker>and yes, petern is quick :-)
13:06*planetmaker compiles
13:06<edeca>Fantastic Alberth, thank you!
13:06<Alberth>getting curvy too?
13:06<planetmaker>hopefully ;-)
13:07<edeca>What's all this curvy business?
13:07<Alberth>edeca: that's why they exist :)
13:07<Alberth>edeca: new map generation possibilities. There is a forum thread somewhere
13:07<planetmaker>I mean... curves can be tasty :-P
13:07<planetmaker>and nice to look at
13:08<Alberth>maps were nice indeed
13:08<@peter1138>it's changed a bit
13:09<@peter1138>it works best with mountainous terrain type
13:09<planetmaker>assumingly not to the worse, though ;-)
13:09<@peter1138>no, there's more choice now
13:09<@peter1138>although you may not get good maps with all settings
13:09<planetmaker>one didn't either before with the original one
13:12<SpComb^>ugh, trying to form patches between two branches when they're based off different versions of trunk is difficult
13:13<SpComb^>can't just do one `git diff A...B` because you get bits of trunk along with it
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13:15<gathers>SpComb^: you can perhaps make a dummy branch of one of them, rebase --onto the dummy to where the other starts, and then make the diff
13:15<SpComb^>or just patch them in by hand and then make the diff off the working copy changes
13:16<planetmaker>hm... I need a good catchy translation for "variety distribution"
13:17<Alberth>official strategy is to merge the diff between last trunk update of branch A and branch head of A, on top of head of branch B
13:17<planetmaker>SpComb^: you need something like hg rebase or so
13:17<planetmaker>git probably has that, too
13:18<SpComb^>I presumed that rebaseing from the newer branch onto the older one would also pull in stuff from trunk
13:18<SpComb^>but rebase still confuses me a little
13:18<gathers>SpComb^: take a look at rebase --onto
13:19<@peter1138>planetmaker, if you can figure out what it means anyway :s
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13:19<@peter1138>it's not the amount of variety, certainly
13:20<planetmaker>yes. It's the separation of landscape types or so
13:20<+michi_cc>SpComb^: git rebase --onto A master B (rebase all commits of B not in master onto branch A)
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13:20<frosch123>planetmaker: Diversifizierung/-zität :p
13:21<planetmaker>peter1138: the single selectable entries could use their own translation. Part of the strings were stolen from elsewhere.
13:21<Luukland>Fugas 31 banned users :p
13:21<planetmaker>(are already translated)
13:21<Luukland>(wrong area)
13:22<@peter1138>you translate "low" as an amount differently?
13:22<planetmaker>It depends on how I name that feature ;-)
13:23<planetmaker>it could "niedrig", "wenig" "gering" "klein"
13:23<planetmaker>depending on context
13:25<planetmaker>frosch123: it's not the worst translation... but too "nose up" ;-)
13:25<SpComb^> <-- so yay, cargodist + daylength + fewer passengers
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13:28<planetmaker>"Geländeformen" seems to be the proper word. And then _I_ don't mind to use the translations for the selections already in place
13:32<planetmaker>hm... no. They don't fit :S
13:33<SpComb^>someone fix the default savegame filename format so that they sort correctly in lexicographic order...
13:34<planetmaker>sorry. I feel like a party-spoiler :-(
13:35<@Rubidium>SpComb^: would something like "Advanced settings -> Interface -> Display options -> Use ... format for savegames" suffice?
13:35<SpComb^>I said default!
13:35<SpComb^>even though I didn't know there was an option
13:36<@Rubidium>it is the default savegame filename format... it's non-default when you enter the name yourself
13:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18543 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Codechange: Use separate set of strings for variety distribution setting to ease translation.
13:36*planetmaker hugs peter1138
13:37<@Rubidium>oh... someone who intensely loves to translate?
13:38<@peter1138>i blame german
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13:38<gathers>SpComb^: what happens with the running costs of vehicles when the daylength is longer? do the per-year values increase as well?
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13:39<planetmaker>feel free, peter1138 :-) >:-)
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>a lot of the language features can be blamed on german :p
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>like genders ;)
13:39<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but not in OpenTTD...?
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 2594
13:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by ludde :: r2594 /trunk (13 files in 3 dirs) (2005-07-16 20:58:04 UTC)
13:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Fix: [strgen] Misc updates to the string system.
13:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: - Renamed the plural command to "P" instead of "PLURAL". Now write something like this to append an s on plural: {P "" s}. (You can optionally still add an argument index to explicitly specifiy which number that's used)
13:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: - Removed the pluralized cargo strings from the string files. The new method is to use the plural specifier {P}
13:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: - Added support for genders. First add "##gender der das die" on top, then use {G=der} on a cargoname/industry to set the gender, and to switch between genders do something like {G neu neu neue} {STRING}
13:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: (...)
13:41<planetmaker>he... :-)
13:42<planetmaker>cases. Not genders. Whatever :-P
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, i did say what i mean
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18544 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 8 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 8 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 3 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 10 changes by 2rB
13:45<+glx>planetmaker: we are fast ;)
13:46<Madis>'m faster
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>but the croatian guy had way more changes!
13:46<planetmaker>I thought it was already too late. Nice! :-)
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13:46<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the croatian guy just... uhm... broke WT3
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18545 /trunk/src/video/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3292]: Assign '_screen.dst_ptr' as soon as it is allocated.
13:46<+glx>again ?
13:47<planetmaker>I think it was greek before?
13:47<@Rubidium>glx: yeah, although this time it isn't blocking language commits and the last time it was
13:47<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yeah, the greek broke it before that
13:48<planetmaker>seems to happen... regularily :S
13:48<@Rubidium>something's happening with cases
13:48<@Rubidium>which probably isn't the best tested part of WT3
13:49<@Rubidium>and TB doesn't have much time lately and as such it isn't fixed yet
13:49<@peter1138>cool, down to 3 bugs ;p
13:49<planetmaker>cases. nasty cases.
13:49<planetmaker>^ not the Germans :-P
13:50<Madis>btw, whose idea was it to have all nouns with capital letters in German?
13:50<Madis>that idea sucks
13:51*SpComb^ wonders if the monolithic savegame version scheme could be improved
13:51<planetmaker>Madis: tests show that it makes for slightly faster reading ;-)
13:51<Madis>but it sucks either way
13:52<planetmaker>You don't mind, if I disagree?
13:52<Madis>It's Hard To Read A Sentence Like That
13:52<planetmaker>Es ist nicht so schwer einen solchen Satz zu lesen.
13:52<planetmaker>^which would be the German equivalent.
13:52<planetmaker>so... one nown
13:53<@Rubidium>still, it's harder to read than "It's hard to read a sentence like that"
13:53<planetmaker>and the contrary is true :-)
13:53<@Rubidium>planetmaker: really?
13:53<Madis>but... Ich kann schlecht Deutch sprechen. If I write it, I have to think whether to capitalize schlecht, Deutch or sprechen
13:53<Madis>that gotta suck :D
13:53<@Rubidium>peter1138: what is harder for you to read? "It's hard to read a sentence like that" or "Es ist nicht so schwer einen solchen Satz zu lesen.
13:54<Prof_Frink>The one in Foreign.
13:54<Madis>I think he just passed out, way too hard for him.. both :D
13:54<planetmaker> <-- this says it's faster to read
13:55<Prof_Frink>Yes, but it's unreadable, so should be disregarded.
13:55<planetmaker>tested actually with Dutch people reading German :-)
13:55<Madis>planetmaker only that nobody but you (and the rest 80 million german speakers) can't understand you
13:55<Madis>-you +it
13:56<planetmaker>The nouns are important. Therefore capitalized ;-)
13:56<Madis>no, the names are important
13:56<Madis>and in Estonian we don't even capitalize the names of nations or languages
13:56<Madis>only the names of countries
13:57<Xaroth>peter1138: lost cause :P
13:57<Madis>and first word of a sentence, but nothing else, really
13:57<@peter1138>i've no idea what they're talking about
13:57<Madis>and German being shitty about it
13:58<Xaroth>Maybe the estonian have it all wrong ;)
13:58<Prof_Frink>Madis: Latin's even better.
13:58<Madis>WE ARE RIGHT
13:58<Madis>YOU ARE LEFT
13:58<Xaroth>and caps lock is cruise control for cool, i know
13:59<Madis>it was shift
13:59<Madis>not caps lock
13:59<Madis>I don't use caps lock
13:59<Xaroth>even worse.
13:59<Xaroth>then yer not cool :)
13:59<Madis>never said I was
14:00<Madis>If I were, would I be listening to Alicia Keys' 1st December concert from utub?
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>* SpComb^ wonders if the monolithic savegame version scheme could be improved <-- the main improvement point would be a name/value dictionary for settings
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>would account for most of the savegame-changing patches
14:02<SpComb^>some kind of way to identify induvidual chunks and their versions
14:04<SpComb^>the most common case is where you have a savegame produced by patch A which adds setting a and bumps the version to x - then you add a patch B which adds a setting b and doesn't bump the savegame version - then you try and load that savegame with that
14:04<SpComb^>which you can workaround by fudging around with the sl versions in the code
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: if you had a dictionary, adding a setting wouldn't require a savegame version bump at all
14:05<SpComb^>I guess, I haven't looked at the internals of the sl system
14:06<planetmaker>he, such change would be interesting indeed
14:06<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yeah... until someone changes the meaning of a variable and you're totally screwed
14:07<planetmaker>Rubidium: yes, but that's what the savegame version is for, isn't it?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that, again, could be handled by an actual version bump
14:07<@Rubidium>especially the OMANY kind
14:08<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but... what if your slightly patched version also bumps the version? Then it would be loadable in trunk and the conversion wouldn't be done
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: there are always ways to break it...
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14:12<SpComb^>mm, I have to crank this exponent down to -4 before my network manages to keep up
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14:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18546 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: make making the screenshot not asynchronious; just do it at the moment it's requested.
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14:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18547 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix [FS#3388]: missing thread synchronisation when changing the resolution for SDL via the in game menu
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14:33<Noldo>should I need something more than grfcodec and renum to make opengfx?
14:34<@Rubidium>a preprocessor and sed/awk/make are probably useful
14:34<Ammler>stuff you use fro building openttd should be enough, afaik.
14:35<@Rubidium>might be a missing preprocessor
14:35<Ammler>make clean && make
14:36<Noldo>Ammler gets the points
14:37<Ammler>it somehow fails to remake dependency check.
14:40<planetmaker>Noldo: gcc and md5sum
14:41<Noldo>planetmaker: those I checked earlier
14:41<Noldo>hmm, something isn't liking my new palette
14:41<Noldo>planetmaker: it works now :)
14:42<planetmaker>what did you do differently?
14:42<Noldo>planetmaker: make clean && make, as Ammler told me to
14:42<planetmaker>just a missing make clean
14:42<planetmaker>hm, yes, sometimes it helps
14:43<planetmaker>you could use make remake instead ;-)
14:43<planetmaker>nice that it works, though
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14:44<Noldo>is it grfcodec that is working when it says stuff like: Loading sprites/pcx/mapgen.pcx
14:44<Noldo>it's not happy with the changes palette
14:45<planetmaker>you shouldn't change the palette of a the files
14:45<planetmaker>that nearly always makes grfcodec unhappy
14:47<planetmaker>for all practical purposes the pcx files of OpenGFX need to be in the TTD windoze palette format
14:48<Noldo>it's mapgen.pcx, no-one will notice
14:49<planetmaker>well. yes. grfcodec
14:49<Ammler>[20:42] <planetmaker> you could use make remake instead  <-- does that work now?
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14:49<planetmaker>Ammler: it always did
14:50<Ammler>he, you already forgot :-P
14:50<planetmaker>no, I didn't. I never understood that :-)
14:50<Ammler>make without nforenum
14:50<Ammler>install nforenum
14:50<Ammler>make remake
14:51<Ammler>try it :-)
14:53<planetmaker>remake is an alias for clean and all
14:53<planetmaker>peter1138: it's really fun to generate maps with that new feature. They're awesome :-) Kudos
14:54<Ammler>planetmaker: but it doesn't repeat the depend check
14:54<Ammler>I am quite sure, I told you....
14:55<planetmaker>the deps don't change, do they?
14:56<Ammler>try my scenario... :-P
14:56<Ammler>maybe it is something else...
14:57<Ammler>oh, the nfo is generated but without renum, so it is there but doesn't work
14:57<Noldo>oh my, my trunk checkout was really old
15:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18548 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix (r18541): Unused string slipped in.
15:06<@peter1138>planetmaker, now you need some rivers ;)
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15:28<Eddi|zuHause>err... *hides*
15:30<@peter1138>did you see my half-tile rivers?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>not yet, having kinda system problems today
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>pondering restoring the backup...
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>being able to neither "svn up" nor "make" is kinda problematic to development :p
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>src/lang/german.txt:1043: warning: String name 'STR_TERRAIN_TYPE_MIXED' does not exist in master file <-- i guess someone was too fast ;)
15:56<planetmaker>but indeed... rivers will be nice...
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15:56<Noldo>planetmaker: I managed to generate new game with my own mapgen sprites
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15:59<planetmaker>so... how does it look like, Noldo ?
16:00<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: I guess it warns for french too :)
16:00<Noldo>it looks like someone made simple testsprites for mapgenerator and generated a new map on with them
16:01<Noldo>most of the sprites are predominantly of colorindex 0 ie. water
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's weird, it's like 100 files in until it discovers that neither libsdl-devel nor libpng-devel are installed ;)
16:03<planetmaker>well... I'm asking for the reason that I also generated some new sprites for them - but it looks very much unlike the original. Only with occasional mountains, independent on the roughness setting
16:03<planetmaker>and that bugs me :-)
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16:04<Noldo>I think we need to figure out exactly how the different sprites are used
16:04<planetmaker>that's my guess, too.
16:05<planetmaker>but I didn't get to that yet... nor will in the next hours :-)
16:06<_ln>quite an interesting season finale for Dexter.
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: not finding any rivers, do i look in the wrong place?
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: quite an insane thing to spoil it :p
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16:09<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: you are greatly surprised by the fact that the season ends "interestingly", with a cliff-hanger?
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: no. even "somebody dies" wouldn't exactly be a spoiler with dexter :p
16:10<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, oh right... i didn't actually post anything... whoops
16:14<Noldo>planetmaker: :/ part of my sprites were still random noice
16:14<planetmaker>ah. If you like I can give you my version, too, to play around with.
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16:18<@peter1138>hmm, zephyris just posted some
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16:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18549 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: first do the time-since-last-service check and only then determine whether autoreplace needs to take place. This way they will not keep autoreplacing continuously on failure, but only after some timeout.
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16:30<planetmaker>oh. he. There and those. yes
16:31<Noldo>he is way too fast
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: could there be some sanity checks like cargo types of the replacement vehicle before attempting to go for autoreplace-servicing?
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16:34<planetmaker>Noldo: but you could give them a try and use those of yours, his and mine which give best results.
16:35<planetmaker>having sprites is only half way. Getting them into the game and testing how they look (and adjusting) is the other half
16:35<planetmaker>if not more ;-)
16:35<Noldo>I still want to figure out how the old generator uses the sprites
16:37<planetmaker>and that would be good to know. Maybe you can document that then also somehow - so that that knowledge doesn't get lost. Maybe add a few appropriate comments to the source where they are used
16:38<Zuu>planetmaker: Maybe you want to know, the program you helped testing has been released and is now available on the website. (
16:38<planetmaker>congratz, Zuu! :-)
16:39<Zuu>I noticed though that on my Linux system the strings painted by the same font engine becomes slightly longer so there is some glitches in the about dialog for example.
16:39<Zuu>planetmaker: Thanks :-)
16:39<Noldo>oh no, there's bitsifting
16:40<planetmaker>Noldo: I think only 4 bit or so are used as hightmap. *someone* in this channel said so.
16:40<Noldo>it was Yexo and I did find that from the source too
16:41<Noldo>I also know that is takes to runs of stamping those tempaltes on the map and the locations and orientations are random
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16:42<Noldo>the two runs seem to use different sprites
16:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18550 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r18281): show expected price of town construction even when the company doesn't have enough money
16:42<@peter1138>there are 5 different types
16:43<@peter1138>which are used depends on the climate selected
16:43<Noldo>and 2 arrays of magical index arrays
16:43<Noldo>2 arrays of magical indices
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16:46<@peter1138>they're counts, not indices
16:46<@peter1138>(r >> 24) gives you an 8 bit random number used like a percentage (but a per256age)
16:49<Noldo>yes, that part really had me confused
16:50<Noldo>so if the r >> 24 is 0 ans type is 0,1,2 or 3 the sprite id will be 4845?
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16:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18551 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#1762]: When autoreplace is the only allowed reason to send vehicles to depot, first check some minimal requirements (engine availability, refittability) and a heuristic for the needed money.
16:55<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you are impatient
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm only ahead of my time :p
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... placing industries destroys rivers
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>they really shouldn't do that...
16:57<frosch123>they do?
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: they seem to terraform regardless of river presence
16:58<frosch123>on map creation, or also ingame?
17:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r18552 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt german.txt): -Fix (r18548): some translators were very fast
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: seems like only map creation, but not entirely certain
17:02<frosch123> <- also in that case?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: hm, no, could reproduce it ingame
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>let me test the patch
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17:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18553 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix: make aircraft behave the same on autoreplace/autorenew as other vehicles
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17:08<frosch123>hmm, but do towns also clear rivers when expanding?
17:08<@Rubidium>clear as in destroy or as in bridge?
17:08<@peter1138>heh, 77.77%
17:08<@peter1138>frosch123, no
17:08<@peter1138>they bridge in fact
17:09<@Rubidium>peter1138: but only if you can FS#3369 as a bug and not an user error
17:09<frosch123>ah yes, it also uses DC_WATER, and also DC_AUTO
17:09<@peter1138>87.5% then?
17:10<@Rubidium>peter1138: yeah :)
17:10<frosch123>hmm, i guess that scares users away, when they try to find the not-osx section
17:11<@peter1138>heh, nice bug in ogfx's rivers
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i have seen towns build bridges, but never destroy river
17:12<frosch123>yeah, they do not
17:13<frosch123>hmm, does the industry terraforming also clear roads and houses?
17:13<@peter1138>don't think so
17:13<frosch123>ah, DC_AUTO is added by the terraform command itself
17:14<@peter1138>half-tile rivers are annoying me now
17:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: any success on testing?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, let's say i haven't been able to reproduce the situation
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17:16<@peter1138>^ how silly
17:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18554 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Change: Forbid industries to clear sea/river when leveling land.
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: if both the top half and the adjacent lower half are water, they should form a waterfall
17:20<@peter1138>thing is
17:20<@peter1138>starting to wonder about half-tiles on flat land too
17:21<frosch123>and next to rail :p
17:21<@Rubidium>shared with rail :)
17:21<@peter1138>but then someone is bound to want that for canals too
17:21<@peter1138>and then that, yes
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>well, i was going to say that, too ;)
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm getting nowhere with this terraforming thing...
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>and i get lots of errors "ALSA lib pcm.c:7234:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured"
17:24<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: so do I - but I think it's caused by some alsa update. I get those warnings when I downgrade to older OTTD version as well.
17:25<frosch123>some emerge printed a note about giving some task higher priority to avoid sound underrun
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17:30<frosch123>hmm, cannot find that one
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>i need some threshold on floding when finding a sink... now they stop way too easily on flat areas
17:38<frosch123>maybe do it when the heights are not yet scaled down to 0-15
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>i do that
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>but there are still sinks
17:39<frosch123>do you start in the mountains or at the sea?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>i start at a random tile, and follow the direction that is "downwards" until i hit 0 or a river tile
17:40<frosch123>maybe start at the sea and try to reach some reasonable height
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17:41<planetmaker>I found that proposal to work better for me ^
17:41<planetmaker>but it has it's problems, too :-)
17:41<frosch123>or alternatively create a big lake and start searching from there
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, finding the direction that is "down" isn't the problem, the problem is that there are places which are a local minimum
17:44<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes. And you solve that, if you go up
17:44<frosch123>or you have to create a lake there :)
17:44<Eddi|zuHause> <-- see for yourself (WARNING! do not use with a rivers grf)
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>err... something isn't right
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>contains reversal of peter's recent patch...
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17:47<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i'm still not familiar with how hg works
17:48<planetmaker>hg diff -rX:Y
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17:48<planetmaker>with X and Y being two revisions you want to compare
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17:51<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm not sure, something went wrong when updating, i think
17:52<planetmaker>hm... usually there shouldn't, if you don't modify the same place
17:52<planetmaker>hg up ?
17:52<sparrL>is it possible to force load a different graphics-only GRF than other players are using in a multiplayer game?
17:52<planetmaker>sparrL: you can use static newgrfs. Only from within config file, though
17:53<frosch123>but note, that not everything is "graphics-only" what you might guess :)
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>should be better now...
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>so reload above link
17:55<planetmaker>hehe @ frosch
17:55<planetmaker>very little actually
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>typically trees and catenary
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>some rare cases of bridges
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>and road/rail sets
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly the HQ ;)
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18:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm... to flood properly, i probably need a recursive approach, not an iterative one
18:06<planetmaker>don't forget an ending condition ;-)
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18:08<Eddi|zuHause>flooding should be BFS
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>so i need a FIFO list
18:08<@peter1138>if (whole_map_is_flooded) end;
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>and it might be useful to decide whether to flood or dig a canyon
18:09<planetmaker>double flood!
18:10<planetmaker>multi flood!
18:10<planetmaker>monster flood!
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>but i have no idea how to achieve sensible canyons
18:13<_ln>why does the font change into a silly one f i choose Finnish or French or something?
18:14<_ln>but e.g. with English, Danish and Estonian the font is non-silly
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: because you did not update to a recent nightly
18:14<_ln>fine, i'll run svn up
18:14<@peter1138>heh, trees slowly appear in the scenario editor
18:15<@peter1138>are they supposed to?
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's been a complaint for years
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>but there's a setting to disable that now, i believe
18:16<frosch123>maybe enforce that setting in SE
18:16<_ln>doesn't sound like a feature that needs a setting
18:16<Zuu>peter1138: I think you can pause in the scenario editor, so I guess it is not too unlogical.
18:16<@peter1138>yeah you
18:16<@peter1138>but then guess what
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18:16<@peter1138>you can't build anything :p
18:17<Zuu>You can build stones and light houses plus some more. :-)
18:17<Zuu>Or, you mean, while paused. Ah sory. :-)
18:17<Zuu>Isn't build on pause cheat available in the scenario editor?
18:18<Zuu>Or maybe you can't cheat in the scenario editor.
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ/frosch123: somebody suggested that the buffer underrun message might be related to pulseaudio
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: in scenario editor, there's supposed to be no cheating necessary
18:27<Zuu>good night
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18:35<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: I am not using pulseaudio
18:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18555 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Fix (r15027): fake definitions of squirrel types were wrong for eg. 64bit systems, don't use them
18:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18556 /trunk/src/ai/api/squirrel_export.awk: -Fix (r17005): squirrel export didn't accept negative constants
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18:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18557 /trunk/src/ai/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: (most of) gcc errors when using lto caused by some structs having different definition in different object files
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the cargodist thread is impossible to follow... every time i look at it, there's like half a dozen new pages
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19:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18558 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_map.hpp: -Cleanup (r18557): no need to document TILE_INVALID twice
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21:25<SpComb^> <-- yay link graph
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21:38<Rhamphoryncus>SpComb^: nifty
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>and what's a "MUI"?
21:40-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>and your inner city connectivity could use some work
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>like tram networks
21:41<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. I remember thinking there was a good reason to use trams, but I haven't played a while and now I'm not sure. Was it loading time?
21:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably depending on the tram set
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>their main advantage is that you don't need to tear down half the city to get a decent capacity link
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21:43<Rhamphoryncus>Compared to buses?
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21:44<Eddi|zuHause>compaired to trains
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>in most sets, busses have a lower capacity
21:50<Rhamphoryncus>the per-vehicle capacity isn't the bottleneck though. It's the loading time
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22:01<Eddi|zuHause>with cargodist, the loading time doesn't matter that much, as a vehicle rarely gets completely empty and refills at a stop
22:02<Eddi|zuHause>unless your "network" only consists of point-to-point lines
22:16<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: in what way?
22:16<SpComb^>routing of the trams?
22:19<SpComb^>currently I have big overcapacity on the trams, because I built them when I still had 0x passenger generation
22:19<SpComb^>now I have a quarter of the passengers, so the tram stops are pretty well served
22:19<SpComb^>bug yes, e.g. Brindworth falls and Chunpool have both expanded a lot since I last updated the tram networks
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 20 00:00:11 2009