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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-20

---Logopened Sun Dec 20 00:00:11 2009
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03:04<Rhamphoryncus>I do point to point specifically to improve throughput
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04:00<Noldo>interesting, quantity_sea_lakes and terrain_type have no effect on tropic and arctic
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04:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18559 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix: When using original landscape generator, the terrain type and water level fields have no effect for arctic or tropic climates, so disable the dropdowns.
04:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18560 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18541): variety distribution dropdown should not be on heightmap window.
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04:38<_ln>guten morgen, liebe zuschauer
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04:56<@peter1138>openttd... 19m resident
04:56<@peter1138>after all these years it's still pretty small
04:56<planetmaker>and then a 2k^2 map comes...
04:57<@peter1138>still not bad, 58m
04:57<planetmaker>btw: good morning :-) Nice and snowy outside here...
04:58<@peter1138>not snowing right now
04:58<@peter1138>still some snow on the ground though
04:59<@peter1138>heh, 2k^2 map generation can be... slow
05:01<planetmaker>yes... but unproblematic IMO as long as it gives occasional feed-back. It's a one-time event
05:01<@peter1138>it does these days yes :)
05:01<@peter1138>hmm, what i'd want from a 2k^2 map: 2 or 3 large landmasses separated by a LOT of ocean
05:02<@peter1138>rather than everything just spread out over the whole lot
05:02<@peter1138>something that gives ships a purpose...
05:02<planetmaker>I didn't test: what does 'much water' and 'very high' diversity yield?
05:03<@peter1138>same as usual
05:03<planetmaker>he... ships & purpose. Are there any *ideas* how PF for ships could be made lighter on CPUs?
05:03<@peter1138>lots of lakes and islands
05:03<@peter1138>predefined shipping lines
05:04<planetmaker>as in our current PS game we have... dunno about 50...60 ships. We'd gain 33% speed or so (someone tested), if we hand't them...
05:04<planetmaker>s/speed/less CPU usage/
05:05<planetmaker>and we even have buoys every 10 tiles at most
05:06<@peter1138>which pf?
05:08<planetmaker>opf as recommended IIRC. We didn't change that.
05:08<@peter1138>easy way to test speed difference: stop all ships
05:09<planetmaker>yapf would be wrong there, too, as the water masses are not small. Kinda a Marlborough Sounds like scenario ;-)
05:09<SmatZ>planetmaker: YAPF does caching, it could be better
05:09<planetmaker>true... just stopping them...
05:10<planetmaker>let's test...
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05:13<planetmaker>ok... with OPF: 90% vs. 80% CPU usage with 58 ships and 930 trains
05:14<planetmaker>YAPF is definitely worse... 95 ... 100%
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05:16<planetmaker>best is NPF in this scenario. It nearly produces no overhead...
05:17<planetmaker>5% maybe
05:19<planetmaker>nice :)
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05:20<@peter1138>number of towns needs scaling down
05:20<@peter1138>if you want to play
05:21<@peter1138>set amplitude to something big, say 100000
05:22<@peter1138>it's not ideal mind you
05:23<@peter1138>the variation above water is limited
05:23<planetmaker>that depends on definiton of "town". Small villages wouldn't hurt... if they stay small
05:24<planetmaker>that's how you generated that map?
05:25<@peter1138>high water level, very rough, mountainous
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05:31<planetmaker>hm... another setting for the mapgen? :-)
05:33<@peter1138>not unless i can figure out how to get more detail
05:33<@peter1138>it's not very rough at all
05:35<@peter1138>if the amplitude of the higher frequencies is increased it will counteract the water/islands effect :/
05:36<planetmaker>less islands? yes...
05:37<planetmaker>But... what one could do is: use the big amplitude and allow large masses of water. If additional (smaller) islands are desired add another run of this, with the same amplitude but smaller frequency. BUT only add it, if the height is above a certain threshold. E.g. don't use it to lower land
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05:38<@peter1138>sort of
05:38<planetmaker>newheight += high_freq_height > 0 ? high_freq_height : 0
05:38<planetmaker>or alike
05:38<@peter1138>basically i'm thinking another pass, similar to your idea
05:39<@peter1138>hmm, actually
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06:12<_ln>famous last words: "hmm, actually"
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06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18561 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3390]: Do try to overtake a vehicle in a station as overtaking in a station is not allowed
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>famous missing "not"
06:26<@Rubidium>that I'm good in :)
06:27<SmatZ>hehe :)
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07:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18562 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_accounting.hpp: -Document: improve clarity of the AIAccounting class
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07:30<EdoDodo>Hi, does anyone know how I can uninstall AIs that I downloaded from the in-game content download?
07:31<EdoDodo>Can't seem to find how to do it anywhere
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07:40<planetmaker>just de-activate it in the AI submenu available from the main menu
07:41<planetmaker>if you mean it in "delete the files", you'll have to resort to the usual tools of your OS
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08:07<EdoDodo>Well I like to use random AIs, so I can't manually deselect an individual AI, if I wanted to delete the file for it so it is never chosen in the random AIs, where would it be located?
08:07<EdoDodo>I'm running OS X
08:08<@Rubidium>the readme has a section about that
08:08<@Rubidium>(read: I don't know the answer, but I know where you can find the answer)
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08:09<welshdragon>EdoDodo: Documents/OpenTTD/AI
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>likely put an "online_content" inbetween there
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>or "content_download"
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>or something
08:10<Alberth>aka read the readme :)
08:10<welshdragon>EdoDodo: Documents/OpenTTD/content_download/AI
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>i never play with AI...
08:11<welshdragon>nor do I
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08:11<EdoDodo>Awesome, thanks, so just deleting the files will make it disappear ingame?
08:11<welshdragon>try it and see
08:12<EdoDodo>Okay :)
08:12<EdoDodo>Okay, works, thanks :)
08:13<EdoDodo>I was looking for something in the actual game's folder, didn't think of checking in the Documents
08:13<welshdragon>OSX is sneaky like that
08:13<Alberth>no, it is due to thinking in multi-user systems
08:14<Alberth>not everybody may have write permissions at the game folders
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08:14<EdoDodo>Makes sense, thanks
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08:16<SirSquidness>Random question: What is the maximum crates/month output of a factory?
08:17<SirSquidness>Somewhere around 27K?
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08:25<Eddi|zuHause>SirSquidness: i don't think there is a maximum, but if there were, it would be something like 65k
08:28<SirSquidness>My mate who's showing off his latest achiement has hit the same figure in the 27K region three times and not a crate over, and seen the same figure on the ttd wiki of a giant factory
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>then i can't comment on that, i never had such a megalomanic network...
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>but 27k does seem very random for a limit
08:32<SirSquidness>yeah, that's what I thought
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08:32<SirSquidness>I figured it would be a 2^n - 1
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>especially since all the delivery->production transformations are supposed to be instantaneous and independent...
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08:34<Luukland>Guys I have a problem, someone is blocking other ppl from going into my server
08:35<Luukland>disconnecting the joining process and joining again is impossible
08:35<Luukland>4 in line
08:35<Luukland>I dunno
08:35<PeterT>He may not be purposfully diong that
08:35<PeterT>His connection just sux
08:35<PeterT>Drop him (kick!)
08:35<Luukland>But I can;t
08:35<+glx>there's a timeout IIRC
08:35<Luukland>cos I am not in the server
08:36<Luukland>max_join_time = 200
08:36<Luukland>but it is alredy so for 6 minutes
08:37<+glx>doesn't count the download I think
08:37<Luukland>yet it is happening a lot lately
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08:38<Luukland>is there a fix for this planned in future version of OTTD?
08:38<Luukland>or do I have to make one myselve?
08:40<@Rubidium>only every tileloop at most 255 * rating pieces are moved, tileloops only happen every 16 or so ticks -> 74 * 30 / 16 * 255 * rating -> ~35.000 with rating 1 (100%), at rating 0.8 (80%) you'd get ~27.000
08:43<Luukland>How long is 1 tick?
08:43<Luukland>0,25 seconds?
08:45<Luukland>1 tick is approximately 30 ms
08:45<Luukland>ah thx
08:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18563 /trunk/src/ (industry_map.h industrytype.h): -Document: some industry related functions
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09:05<gathers>could someone explain to me how to add a new setting correctly? I've come as far as to have it show up in game, but where are all the arguments to SDT_CONDBOOL(...) defined?
09:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r18564 /trunk/src/fontcache.cpp: -Fix: silence a warning
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09:08<gathers>if a new vehicle_flag is added, do I need to increase the savegame version or something?
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09:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18565 /trunk/src/tgp.cpp: -Fix [FS#3391] (r18541): some older GCC warn about implicitly casting from floats to integers
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09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18566 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Codechange: When both the union and intersection of refit masks of articulated vehicles are needed, they can be determined at once.
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09:50<Muxy>@seen belugas
09:50<@DorpsGek>Muxy: belugas was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 14 hours, 28 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: * Belugas is going on tv mode
09:52<Alberth>he is usually here mon-fri while at work.
09:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18567 /trunk/src/ (house.h table/town_land.h town_cmd.cpp town_map.h): -Fix [FS#2613]: [NewGRF] House property 15 did not work
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09:58<@Rubidium>oh... where is that OSX maintainer?
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>he who?
09:59<@Rubidium>got to love that basically 100% of the open bugs is OSX minus the one that's most likely a broken network
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>brb, breaking my X
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10:02<_ln>it's your fault
10:02<_ln>if you had dropped OS X support, then those bugs could just be closed as wontfix.
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10:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18568 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: Bail out early.
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10:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18569 /extra/ottd_grf/split/ (openttdgui.nfo openttdgui.pcx): [OTTD_GRF] -Add: sprites for window shading (erikjanp)
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10:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18570 /trunk/bin/data/ (5 files): -Merge (r18569): sprites for window shading
10:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18571 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r18551): Vehicles not carrying any cargo (e.g. engines) were not considered for sending to depot for replacement.
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10:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18572 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Change: Enable 'multiple NewGRF engine sets' by default.
10:38<PeterT>Wow, that's annoying
10:39<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: Congratz, you have been elected to the master reviewer of default settings (esp. GUI settings). Do you obey the vote?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>haha ;)
10:44<frosch123>that is no valid answer in this context :p
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>i accept, if you tell me why my tv card has stopped working...
10:45<frosch123>depends how much it has stopped :)
10:45<frosch123>is it listed in lspci, are the modules listed in lsmod?
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>boot.msg says "<6>b2c2-flexcop: initialization of 'Sky2PC/SkyStar 2 DVB-S (old version)' at the 'PCI' bus controlled by a 'FlexCopII' complete"
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>yast detects it
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>but in kaffeine, the dvb button has disappeared
10:46<frosch123>do you have /dev/video0
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember ever having that
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>but i have /dev/dvb*
10:47<frosch123>hmm, maybe the dvb one is called different
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10:50<frosch123>did you try opening /dev/dvb* with some mplayer
10:51<frosch123>(though you wouldn't be able to tune)
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11:02<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: do you have drivers loaded, including the frontend module?
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11:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r18573 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ -Fix [FS#3198]: [OSX] Try to get a generic RGB colour space if getting the system colour profile failed. (tyler)
11:12<@peter1138>zomg, an OSX bugfix
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>makes still 100% osx bugs ;)
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>how can two cats make so much noise without opening their mouths?
11:15<_ln>cat /dev/random & cat /dev/urandom ?
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause>/dev/random is sloooow...
11:16<_ln>can't roll the dice at supersonic speeds to avoid overheating.
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11:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18574 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp ship_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#3392] (r18481): manually sending trains and RVs to depots didn't quite work
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11:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18575 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp gfx.cpp gfx_func.h): -Fix [FS#3393]: unit numbers weren't always fully shown in the depot
11:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18576 /trunk/src/ (vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui_base.h): -Codechange: use the function to determine the width of digits for determining the width of the unitnumber in vehicle lists.
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11:54<pavel1269>oh, finally, hello everyone :-)
11:57<@peter1138>oh dear, this piano piece has double-sharps :s
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>hello, he who mimics the nick of a dev
11:58<pavel1269>are you pointing at me eddi?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: oh, i have never encountered those... double b's i have, though
11:59<@peter1138>Zart und nicht zu langsam
11:59<@peter1138>Con tenerezza e non troppo lento
12:00<@peter1138>♩ = 66
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12:25<Sacro>how do you get the seed values for a map?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>from the console
12:29<pavel1269>or InteractiveRandom()
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12:42<SpComb^>what do you need to transport food in the alpine climate when playing the DBSetXL?
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12:44<Eddi|zuHause>a) there should be no food in alpine climate, b) try the dbxl_ecs.grf
12:45<SpComb^>the towns in the alpine game say "Cargo needed for town growth: Food required in winter"
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>they do say that, yes
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>because the grf cannot disable that requirement
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>so towns above snow line will never grow, unless you fund buildings
12:46<SpComb^>but I also have two different kinds of factories :/
12:47<SpComb^>and food processing plants
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>you probably mixed it with another industries grf
12:47<pavel1269>sounds like a nice mess in newgrfs :-)
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>like PBI
12:47<SpComb^>so alpine + PBI don't mix
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>you can easily disable the industry part of alpine via grfcodec
12:49<pavel1269>easily for sameone, who does not code in nfo? :-)
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, replace sprite 1060 with this line: 1060 * 7 07 9A 01 00 00 00
12:51<pavel1269>now i know whats first number for :-D
12:52<Lakie>Doesn't sound too inspirng...
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>(originally, that line contains a check for newcargo.grf, this replacement makes an unconditional check)
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>but the houses will still not accept food...
12:55<SpComb^>true, they don't even accept it
12:55<SpComb^>newgrfs are pretty complicated :(
12:56<SpComb^>why is it like that, then?
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12:56<SpComb^>shouldn't the alpine GRF make sure that you can produce and transport food if you actually need it?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>the alpine grf was intended to copy the temperate gameplay with added snow
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>so the intention was to remove food altogether, which is not implemented
12:58<SpComb^>and a side effect is that towns above the snowline don't grow?
12:58<@peter1138>possibly that's because you have PBI loaded too
12:58<@peter1138>although it's not
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is more or less directly what MB said
12:59<@peter1138>except in german?
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>"the intention was to remove food, but to remove the food requirement cannot be changed by newgrf [yet]"
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13:00<@peter1138>openttd bug possibly...
13:00<@peter1138>food is not listed as a cargo type
13:00<@peter1138>but it's still required
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>afair it's the same in TTDPatch, too
13:01<SpComb^>I guess it's because of PBI that I have a food processing plant
13:01<@peter1138>SpComb^, yeah
13:01<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, possibly, but i don't care about that ;)
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: apart from hacking a "disable food/water requirement" option, one could start implementing more control over town growth by newgrf callback
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, it's not technically a "bug", it's a "known unimplemented feature"
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm rebooting (again)
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13:05<frosch123>or implement snow in temperate :p
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13:11<SpComb^>great coincidence, the first BR05 I built was Train #100
13:11<@peter1138>what is coincidental about that?
13:12<SpComb^>BR05's are special trains, according to this here guide, only three were ever built!
13:12<SpComb^>and they're the fastest trains as well
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13:14<EdoDodo>Hi again, I have one more question... When I'm setting up the game difficulty settings I don't seem to have 'comptetitor start time'
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13:14<EdoDodo>I have all of the settings shown in except that one
13:14<EdoDodo>Has it been removed or something, or do I need to change something in the config file to have it show up
13:15<@Rubidium>that has become an AI setting
13:16<EdoDodo>Found it, thanks!
13:16<EdoDodo>Hadn't thought of checking in the AI settings
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13:21<PeterT>Any Installer Gurus that can tell me what happened here?
13:23<+glx>quite explicit, the icon is not found
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>it can't find media/openttd.ico, obviously
13:24<PeterT>Should that be placed in the ../os/win32/installer directory?
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>open your eyes...
13:25<+glx>compile the nsi from its location
13:26<PeterT>Yeah, I did
13:26<PeterT>using build_installers.bat
13:27<George>A question about global vars
13:27<George>I would like to ask to reserve a var for future use
13:27-!-EdoDodo [] has quit [Quit: EdoDodo]
13:27<George>What var is unused?
13:28<George>May be 26h?
13:29<George>Rubidium: glx: frosch123: What do you think?
13:29<George>Stored value - daylength factor
13:29<@Rubidium>depends on what's free in TTDP
13:30<frosch123>26-3f are free
13:30<George>Current result - always 1h? or would it be better to have 100h?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not convinced that a single daylength factor will suffice
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13:31<Eddi|zuHause>one of the various daylength patches split up the value
13:31<George>Eddi|zuHause: We need something to start with? don't we?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but this is the time where one needs an implementation-independent interface
13:32<George>Eddi|zuHause: Can you suggest something?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>because meanwhile there's at least half a dozen implementations, and none of these are expected to get trunk-worthy
13:33<George>I get more and more questions about day lenght patch support in ECS
13:33<frosch123>can't you make your implementation independent of daylength?
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i noticed
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't understand what the actual problem is
13:34<George>frosch123: I have a long discussion with patch dev last week
13:34<George>the result is - No, I can't
13:34<George>Eddi|zuHause: ECS does not work with day length patch
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>"does not work" is not a problem description
13:35<frosch123>iirc your industries were planning the production for next month, so you could just output (current_day_of_month * planned_production_this_month/31 - production_this_month)
13:36<George>frosch123: Unfortunately, it is more complicated
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>PS: possibly you don't want a "day length" variable, but a "multiple of 256 tick callback frequency" variable
13:36<George>The problems I have now are
13:37<George>1) CBs and var 2A get desinc
13:37<George>2) CBs happen unknown times
13:38<frosch123>what is var2a?
13:38<frosch123>why do you need to know the exact time of a callback?
13:39<George>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, but I need to be sure that it affects all CBs
13:39<George>frosch123: 2A (Word) - Production counter, decremented on every tick, used for timing of primary industry production. Many places uses this data. If every 256-tick callbacks happen every 512 ticks, this war should be decremented every 2 ticks, not every tick.
13:39<George>frosch123: I need to know not atime, but a number of CBs
13:40<George>I use it to calculate the level
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>but this decrementing should be part of the daylength patch, or not?
13:40<frosch123>ah, you mean variable AA
13:41<George>The idea is simple - you have to have as much resources stored, as number of processed * number of times to process
13:41<George>previously I expected it to be 9, but with day length patch it is not true anymore
13:42<frosch123>well, but isn't the problem the "number of processed" ?
13:42<frosch123>or do you want to produce more when the days are longer?
13:42<frosch123>well, then replace it with (current_day_of_month * planned_production_this_month/31 - production_this_month)
13:42<George>I mean it is defined by the current data
13:43<frosch123>then it does not matter how often it is called, you will always get the same output during one month
13:43<George>yes. If I have CB happen 18 times instead of 9, I have to store 2 times more cargo
13:43<+glx>PeterT: it works for me
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13:43<+glx>when ran from os/windows/installer
13:43<George>You got it wrong
13:44<George>number of processed is defined by var 93
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of the disputed features: should there be more production per month [and as balance less income], or should the production be thinned out
13:45<George>Eddi|zuHause: Unfortunately, the discussion with the patch devs leads us to the fact that it is too hard to increase the day length and not to increase the production
13:45<frosch123>indeed, that is one of the major points where every implementation differs
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18577 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: basque - 4 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 7 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 7 changes by alyr
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 9 changes by prof
13:46<frosch123>so, you mean ttdpatch devs? or some random ottd patch?
13:46<George>I mean day length patch dev
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>the random ottd daylength patch dev, i presume
13:48<@peter1138>so don't the standard industries that have no callbacks have similar issues?
13:48<George>I suppose they do not - they do not process cargo every 256 ticks, but immidently
13:49<@peter1138>are you sure about that?
13:49<frosch123>primary industries have the 256 ticks cycle
13:49<George>No - I do not test the patch myself yet
13:50<George>So, may I reserve var 26?
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13:51<PeterT>glx: Hmm, I don't know then
13:51<PeterT>glx: What version do you have?
13:51<frosch123>you can reverse everything if you make clear that it is only used by a certain patched version
13:51<+glx>I checked trunk and 0.7.5-RC1
13:51<+glx>how do you run the bat?
13:52<frosch123>but please don't enforce the meaning of the variable on future patches if they have a different production concept
13:54<George>frosch123: I plan to write it in the following way: "Reserved for day length data, format would be defined later"
13:54<George>Would it be ok?
13:54<PeterT><glx> how do you run the bat? <-- Click on it?
13:55<frosch123>should be fine
13:55<+glx>it's not meant to be clicked
13:55<frosch123>do you want to use some grfparamter to enable daylength usage?
13:56<PeterT>How is it meant to be used?
13:56<frosch123>or how are you going to detect the presence of the variable?
13:56<+glx>anyway installer should be used for official releases only
13:56<PeterT>0.7.5-RC1 is an official release?
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>nonexisting variables return 0? or "undefined"?
13:56<+glx>why build it ? It's already available
13:57<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i think that changed over time
13:57<frosch123>maybe ttdp segfaults
13:58<PeterT>glx: I'm testing..
13:59<George>I hope it would be an easy task for OTTD dev to provide a support for a var that always returns the same value. I hope it is not a hard task even in TTDP
13:59<frosch123>George: but that requires the var to have a defined meaning
14:00<George>Well, as soon as we decided to have it - we can start to discuss its meaning
14:00<frosch123>and as i already said, don't enforce a meaning as daylength to damn undefined that any implementation has it's own concept and requirements
14:01<George>I suppose there are not too many day length patches - I can contact their devs and ask their opinion
14:01<Alberth>perhaps daylength devs should provide code for it
14:02<frosch123>i guess you need a least a flag in var85
14:02<frosch123>Alberth: there is no way to make ottd compatible to something not defined :)
14:02<Alberth>of course, that kind of means that you'll get as many ECS versions as there are daylength patches
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>the meaning could be exponential, like in SpComb^'s "passenger" reduction patch, including signed values for increasing and decreasing
14:03<Alberth>frosch123: no, but in that way, the daylength dev is responsible for filling in the undefined value
14:04<George>Alberth: They would provide code that provides more varianths than value, that says everything goes as in original game
14:05<George>Currently the question is default value, that indicates "default" behaviour
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>but even that "default" value can mean different things
14:05<pavel1269>hello there :-)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>for example it should be 0 for an exponential setting, but 1 for a multiplicator
14:06<George>It can only mean, that it works as without the patch
14:06<frosch123>George: maybe you should rather add a grf parameter to control the daylength effect
14:06<frosch123>that way you are indepentent of implementations
14:06<George>Eddi|zuHause: For multiplicator it can be val-1, providing 0 as default
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14:07<George>And every user would have to specify it? I see users have problems with the current simple parameters :)
14:08<George>I suppose it would be better to support it on the code side if it is not too hard
14:09<frosch123>as i said, i won't add a variable to ottd, as that would set its meaning in stone
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, a flag "this version supports daylength" should be safer
14:10<frosch123>btw. action d patch variable would also be an alternative to a var2
14:10<George>Eddi|zuHause: a flag has only a bit value?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>George: yes, but that way, you can still add the variable in the daylength patch, but openttd-vanilla must only provide the flag
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>so the grf can check whether it can access the daylength variable
14:11<frosch123>George: there are also flags for "shortrvs" etc...
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>and there is no need for a default value
14:12<George>Eddi|zuHause: good point, it saves us from defining default value
14:13<George>but the var is required and it can't be used for several objects at the same time
14:14<George>what bit do you suggest to use in var 85?
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14:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18578 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Feature: initially select the last joined server when going to the server list
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14:23<George>frosch123: What about bit 79?
14:23-!-asilv [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:24<George>of var 85
14:26<frosch123>is likely free, maybe you might also want to consider , it is quite possible that they all default to zero (in ottd yes, maybe even ttdp)
14:29<frosch123>yup, they are all zero
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14:32<George>frosch123: you mean in TTDP?
14:34<PeterT>@seen fonso
14:34<@DorpsGek>PeterT: fonso was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 3 weeks, 2 days, 9 hours, 46 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <fonso> ok
14:34<PeterT>@seen fonsinchen
14:34<@DorpsGek>PeterT: fonsinchen was last seen in #openttd 9 hours, 53 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <fonsinchen> tss
14:34<frosch123>well, to me it looks like that is the case when appending patchvars at the end, but wiki says "undefined" for certain other patchvars
14:37<George>frosch123: which vars do you suggest to use?
14:37<frosch123>well, varact2vars are more rare
14:37<PeterT>@seen glx
14:37<@DorpsGek>PeterT: glx was last seen in #openttd 40 minutes and 57 seconds ago: <glx> why build it ? It's already available
14:38<George>frosch123: which one exactly?
14:38<frosch123>there are 128 patchvars, of which only 20 are used
14:38<pavel1269>for ottd also true, rest is zero
14:39<George>pavel1269: Aha, here you are :)
14:39<pavel1269>so, variable 85, bit 0x79? Will be 1 when any day length patch applied, otherwise 0 ?
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14:40<frosch123>maybe you do not need that flag either, and the patchvar is sufficient
14:41<frosch123> <- just use 14 or so
14:43<George>I suppose yes, other information, like patch type (an exponential setting, a multiplicator) can be defined in the patchvar
14:43<frosch123>i meant instead of var 26
14:43<frosch123>and bit 79
14:44<George>frosch123: Possible. what would be better?
14:45<frosch123>i guess using the action D patchvar is best, as the value is constant during one game, and there are a lot free patchvars compared to varact2 variables
14:46<George>frosch123: wouldn't a bit be useful to identify a support?
14:46-!-elmz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:48<George>othervise value 0 of patch var would be used as no support flag?
14:50<PeterT>OpenTTD Developers:
14:50<frosch123>looks like ttdp randomly maps patchsettings to free bits in there
14:50<frosch123>looks like ottd's dynamicengines is used by ttdp's newroutes :p
14:51<Alberth>PeterT: what the "the diagonal level at the corner of the map" ?
14:51<PeterT>Alberth: Read the steps to reproduce, it may make more sense
14:52<PeterT>specifically "Try to use Diagonal Level to go from the corner up"
14:52<Terkhen>sounds like a bug related only to the diagonal level and clear patch
14:52<PeterT>As shown in crash.png
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14:52<frosch123>there is no diagonal level in trunk
14:53<pavel1269>George: should I use, those reserved variables? or that something, frosch said (14)
14:53<pavel1269>PeterT: have you read your disclaimer?
14:53<PeterT>what about it?
14:54<Alberth>PeterT: it doesn't. The only diagonal stuff I know are the 'lay track diagonally'.
14:54<George>pavel1269: I suppose you should use the best one and remove the reserve on the others as soon the reserve is not needed anymore.
14:55<George>As for me, I can work with any of the vars
14:55<pavel1269>petert: isnt there something about not bugging ottd devs while reporting patch specific bug?
14:55<George>pavel1269: I mean 14 would also fine
14:57<George>pavel1269: BTW it's 14h ;)
14:58<George>I have to go. Bye!
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15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r18579 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Add orientation to scrollbars.
15:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r18580 /trunk/src/ (21 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Use widget information only for setting scrollbar capacity.
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15:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r18581 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Change (r18570): Update sprite tables for the window shading sprites too.
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15:28<pavel1269>frosch: value is not constant during one game, it can be changed ... does this change anything on use of patch variable 14h ?
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15:31<frosch123>var 14 can only be read when loading grfs
15:31-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:31<frosch123>i.e. on reapplying newgrfs / loading game / starting game
15:31<frosch123>s/var 14/patchvar 14/
15:32<frosch123>so if you want to support changing it in game, and want newgrfs to deal with that, you have to use varact2 var 26 again :)
15:33<frosch123>but ask george whether he can deal with changing values in game
15:36<pavel1269>that will be best :-)
15:36<pavel1269>but being unable to change it in game is a bit ... flustrating
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>paver is flom japan?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>one argument against changing daylength ingame was always the possibility for potential cheating when temporarily switching back and forth
15:44<pavel1269>what will you gain? you can use this in single player, but in multyplayer admin will have to change it
15:45<pavel1269>the only way to "cheat" money with my patch is when decreasing payments, and when train arrive, switch back, after payment, switch forth, but its unworth the time
15:46-!-PeterT [] has left #openttd [Leaving]
15:46-!-PeterT [] has joined #openttd
15:46<@DorpsGek>PeterT: I have 8 registered users with 17 registered hostmasks; 2 owners and 0 admins.
15:47<Alberth>plz do a private chat with dorpsgek
15:49<pavel1269>petert, are you hyperactive or something?
15:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18582 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: save 8 bytes from the Window class
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>a whole 8 bytes!
15:55<Alberth>for each window on your screen, and don't forget the main screen background !
15:55<frosch123>and statusbar and menubar
16:01<_ln>now watching: photos from Halle
16:04<_ln>8 bytes less! does it run on Commodore 64 now?
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16:14<PeterT>petert, are you hyperactive or something? <-- Yes
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16:22<PeterT>For MSVC users: What do you think of my edits? (
16:23<Zuu>Personally I always add library include directories etc. to the global options of MSVC so that I do not need to tell where on my computer different libraries are located on every single project.
16:25<Zuu>Then you tell the linker specificly for each project which .lib files it should include, but I generally don't see a problem of having all library header files visible to all my projects.
16:25<Zuu>The only thing that would be problematic is if I had two different projects that need to use different versions of the same library. But that situation has not yet happened for me.
16:26<Zuu>With your solution for direct X you will need to set those settings every time you checkout a new copy of OpenTTD. That sounds like waste of time to me.
16:31<Zuu>Also, I move projects between computers which has the libraries located at different locations. With my way of doing it, I do not have to do anything for the project to find its libraries. With your way of doing it I would have to change the project settings every time I move the project between my computers.
16:32<@peter1138>hmm, any idea how to do a "partial" alphabetic/numeric sort in C++?
16:33<@peter1138>i.e. sort "a_1" "a_2" "a_10" 'correctly'
16:33<@peter1138>i can't think of the right word :)
16:33<Zuu>Implement a comperator?
16:33<FauxFaux>You only have to provide a definition of "less".
16:33<_ln>depends what is 'correctly'
16:33<@peter1138>_ln, as i listed
16:33<Zuu>Though, you would still have to figure out the way of detemining what is more and what is less.
16:33<@peter1138>i have a comparator, just no idea how to actually do the compare, heh
16:33<_ln>i.e. some sort of a numeric sort
16:34<Alberth>generate a Python program to do the sorting :p
16:34<Zuu>Does the string has a standard form?
16:34<FauxFaux>Ignore common prefixes, then try and sort as number, otherwise sort as string?
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16:35<Zuu>Maybe still you are able to split the string into alpha parts and number parts?
16:36<FauxFaux>That's a more complex case of my suggestion. :)
16:36<_ln>i guess peter1138 is very capable of writing the implementation for the compare function once he knows what it's supposed to do.
16:36<Zuu>Hmm, yep, indeed you just need to remove the common part at the beginning, and then see if the first character is a number or a alpha I guess.
16:37<Zuu>If it is a number, then read untill the end of the number.
16:38<Zuu>if it is a non-number, then just compare the two chars.
16:38<Zuu>Or rather if at least one of them is a non-number, then too a coparsion of the two chars.
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>do i understand the question correctly, that it is not the comparator function that is searched for, but a sorting algorithm that accepts a comparator as parameter? [e.g. template]
16:39<FauxFaux>The built-in sort accepts a comparator function (object), doesn't it..?
16:39<@peter1138>i'm writing the comparator
16:39<@peter1138>possibly do a char by char compare, until i hit a number
16:40<Zuu>FauxFaux: Yes, and peter1138 is already writing it and wanted ideas on how to write the code inside the coperator.
16:40<@peter1138>possibly inefficient but...
16:40<FauxFaux>I'm confused!
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, for sorting large numbers of strings, i'd do a bucket sort on the first two characters, and the rest in quicksort
16:40<Zuu>Perhaps do a char by char until there is a difference?
16:41<Zuu>If both chars that differ are 0-9, then you apply the special nuber case?
16:41<PeterT>Personally I always add library include directories etc. to the global options of MSVC so that I do not need to tell where on my computer different libraries are located on every single project. <-- How?
16:41<_ln>so peter1138's question is not actually C++-related, but algorithmic.
16:41<Zuu>PeterT Options I think.
16:41<PeterT>I'm off
16:41-!-PeterT [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:42<Zuu>PeterT: Tools -> Options ->Projects and solutions -> VC++ Directories (too late)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: how about you make a token parser for [0-9]*?
16:44-!-Fenris [] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 -]
16:44<@peter1138>er, whoops
16:44<@peter1138>ran out of memroy
16:44<@peter1138>serves me right for disabling swap earlier...
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>oh i know that problem... the OOM killer makes everything horribly slow, and you can't even login as root to add swap
16:45<@peter1138>still, it recovered
16:45<@Rubidium>char by char till digit, then atoll?
16:46<@Rubidium>although that might be unstable for F01 vs F1
16:46-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:46<@peter1138>Rubidium, now you've opened a can of worms :s
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>a proper lexical analysis might be cleaner ;)
16:48<Zuu>How is the propper way to compare 01 to 1?
16:48<Zuu>Which one is bigger?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say the shorter one
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>is smaller
16:48<@peter1138>"does size matter?"
16:49<@Rubidium>good question, is Aa equal to aa for the sorting?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'd start with a bucket sort for the first two letters, then possibly sort on common prefix
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>then the buckets should be small enough for "inefficient" tests
16:52<FauxFaux>Common prefix doesn't actually work, as a_1 and a_11 have common prefix.
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>FauxFaux: yes, it isn't a sorting criterium, but if the first two letters of all strings are the same, likely more letters are
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>so you can split up that prefix once, and continue at that point
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16:54<Eddi|zuHause>this is under the assumption, that a tokenizer is significantly slower than a simple byte-for-byte compare, which might not be the case at all
16:55<@peter1138>performance is not critical
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>where tokens are [0-9]+ or "other"
16:55<@peter1138>sorting is quite rare and there isn't a huge amount to sort
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>building an efficient tokenizer has been programmed to death
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>just take lex/yacc
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>and whip your strings through that...
16:56*FauxFaux gets the c++ rages and goes back to Java, screw you all. :p
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>then you can perform "simple" comparisons between tokens
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>because a token is either a number, or a string that contains no numbers
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>so you can do string<->string, number<->number or character<->'0' comparisons
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17:02<@peter1138>well, sod lex/yacc
17:02<@peter1138>never did understand them :p
17:02<_ln>i smell premature optimization here
17:03<@peter1138>char by char works :D
17:03<@peter1138>if both chars as numbers, it does a strtol and compares the results
17:03<@peter1138>regarding 01 and 1, 1 will come first
17:03<@peter1138>cos 01 == 1 so the compare will continue
17:03<@peter1138>it will compare 1 with \0
17:03<@peter1138>\0 will win
17:04<@peter1138>thanks guys :D
17:04*Prof_Frink compares orudge with \0
17:05<Zuu>You're welcome peter1138 :-)
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17:08<@peter1138>hmm, i ought to make it case-insensitive too
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17:09<@peter1138>now i just hope nobody wants it unicode-safe, hehe
17:11<Prof_Frink>Nothing is Born-Acorn-safe. He *is* the better idiot.
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>recursively :p
17:14<_ln>anyone been to Budapest?
17:16<@peter1138>Sacro's a paedopest
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure plenty of people have been to budapest
17:16<_ln>good to know, i thought it was a city built by robots, never entered by a human being
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>i think i was in budapest twice
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>but only for like half a day
17:20<_ln>there'll be direct budget flights between Turku and Budapest soon, which makes it an interesting destination
17:20<Sacro>_ln: yes
17:20<Sacro>also the SAM sim I'm watching videos of is in Hungary
17:25<_ln>also some american companies shoot their public nudity shots in hungary, but i guess that's beside the point.
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>not everywhere is public nudity a crime :p
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>nude beaches were very widespread in eastern europe
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>only american imperialism fought them back :p
17:28*Eddi|zuHause is listening to Hungarian Dance No 5 by Brahms on Buffy unofficial soundtrack [Amarok2]
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17:33<_ln>interesting; very familiar song, but i wouldn't have known its name.
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17:36<_ln>21 dances total :/
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, was a busy guy :p
17:36<Zuu>At my first day at UBC in Vancouver I though about going to the beach, but I ended up at the local nude beach there. The Wrcek beach. :-)
17:37<Zuu>But that was in Canada, not the states.
17:38<_ln>anyone seen a real-life nude beach with any females under 50?
17:40<Zuu>At that beach it was mostly male nudes.
17:40<_ln>how surprising
17:40<Zuu>And drug dealars.
17:41<Zuu>Indeed :-)
17:42<planetmaker>[23:38] <_ln> anyone seen a real-life nude beach with any females under 50? <-- sure. Have you ever been to Eastern Germany?
17:43<planetmaker>It gets scary if you run accross your teachers at that beach, though
17:43<_ln>at least twice, but not to a beach.
17:45<planetmaker>will say: quite common there, I think
17:47<_ln>however, i've seen topless ones in their 20's on a non-nude beach over here a few times.
17:48<planetmaker>I just recall that the "city bathing lake" of Jena was always quite nicely populated by all sort of folks
17:48<_ln>i'd like to explore the eastern germany more thoroughly
17:48<planetmaker>and the nude section wasn't men only.
17:49<_ln>... and i don't mean just the beaches, but in general :)
17:49<planetmaker>:-) Well worth it
17:52<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> [23:38]<_ln>anyone seen a real-life nude beach with any females under 50? <-- sure. Have you ever been to Eastern Germany? <- oh, i have had people tell me that exact same story :p
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>bah, wrong line
17:53<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> It gets scary if you run accross your teachers at that beach, though <-- that one i meant
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>in general, nude beach usage has decreased in the last 20 years
17:55<planetmaker>western influence, I guess...
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17:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm.. bad.. now i'm lying between two cats and can't move...
17:56<planetmaker>good night Eddi|zuHause ;-) -or can't you sleep there either?
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>in this position? unlikely :p
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>and i have a very "unrest" sleep, so it might be dangerous for the cats :p
17:58<_ln>quite unmaintained-looking houses in Halle here and there
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: that's an improvement, because 20 years ago, all of them looked like that
18:00<_ln>are the graffitis from the past or present?
18:00<planetmaker>especially if it comes to Ha-Neu / Hanoy ;-P
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: actually, most houses there are either renewed or vanished
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: the graffitis are "new"
18:01<planetmaker>he... haven't been there for years, I guess
18:01<planetmaker>like... at least 5...6 years
18:01<planetmaker>if not longer
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yeah, that was about when the bulldozing started
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's what happens if the city population suddenly drops by 30%
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>but i guess that's the same in all of east germany
18:05<planetmaker>Dunno really. I remember a bigger article in Die Zeit, though where Halle's destruction of those buildings the "Rückbau" was the topic. And there it was claimed that Halle was kinda leading in this aspect. But going good paths.
18:05<_ln>even in the US of A they are (planning) to bulldoze cities to make them smaller.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: i read that...
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: the comments to the article were the funniest. they were all like "hey, that's all because of our motherfucking commie president and his healthcare!"
18:08<_ln>ah, healthcare, the evilest plot of all time
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18:10<planetmaker>healthcare... hm... I guess sleep adds to my health. Good night! :-)
18:10<_ln>gn, pm
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>ln, r yr vwls brkn?
18:11<+glx>why can I read that??
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>because vowels are mostly redundant
18:12<_ln>abbring thngs t b effve
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>we had that discussion before ;)
18:13<+glx>but I can't read what _ln wrote :)
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18:16<Eddi|zuHause>because he also left out consonants
18:21<_ln>let's not let that be a conversation killer
18:23<Eddi|zuHause><SUSEhelp> Weather in Halle, SA is Light snow. Current temperature is -5°C. Forecast is - Sun Mostly Sunny; Mon Mostly Sunny; Tue Chance of Snow; Wed Chance of Snow;
18:23<Eddi|zuHause><SUSEhelp> Weather in Quebec, QC is Overcast. Current temperature is -9°C. Forecast is - Sun Partly Sunny; Mon Cloudy; Tue Chance of Snow; Wed Cloudy;
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>weird how similar that is :p
18:24<_ln>i'm at hungarian dance #19 now, and wondering why fewer didn't suffice.
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>they're probably starting to sound similar...
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't heard all of them...
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>only like 5 or 6 [not in order]
18:25<_ln>too bad you don't have Spotify
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>they still bouncing off german bureaucracy?
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>but they're probably sufficient to fill a 2-3 hour evening at that time
18:27<_ln>dunno what's the biggest issue, record labels probably
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, i don't know how commercial spotify is, but generally the "GEMA" and "GvL" are responsible for all distribution rights, and i presume they require exorbitant royalties
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>like they tried with youtube...
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that dispute is actually settled yet
18:31<Terkhen>good night
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18:31<_ln>why don't we have ludde here to enlighten us
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>for certain values of "here" ;)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>@seen ludde
18:32<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: ludde was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 9 weeks, 6 days, 14 hours, 47 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <ludde> ;)
18:32<_ln>i've been a spotify user since approximately ludde's latest visit
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 21 00:00:13 2009