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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-26

---Logopened Sat Dec 26 00:00:19 2009
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02:27<Terkhen>good morning
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03:55<andythenorth>whoever added bounding box display to the game deserves cookies
03:56<andythenorth>old things are still good things
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03:59<andythenorth>and if a 120t steel transporter counts as cookies, cookies will be forthcoming :;
04:01<Alberth>"bounding box display" ?
04:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18637 /trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3428]: check whether the content list is empty before trying to draw it
04:01<SmatZ>Alberth: Ctrl+B
04:02<Alberth>oh, those boxes :)
04:02<Alberth>wrong number of dimensions :)
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04:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18638 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix: downloading music sets would fail
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04:56*andythenorth bravely enters the strange world of cargo translation tables
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04:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18639 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/ (7 files in 4 dirs):
04:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: Squirrel from 2.2.3 to 2.2.4
04:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Revert (r17273): this fix is included in Squirrel 2.2.4
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06:27*andythenorth hmm
06:27<andythenorth>fun with bitmasks
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>they are indeed ;)
06:27<andythenorth>makes me feel a teensy bit smarter when I figure it out :|
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06:28<andythenorth>I would make HEQS support the copper cargo in canset, but I have no way to test it :|
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06:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen the canset in action...
06:50<planetmaker>hm... can someone explain me why a train of mine is waiting for a free path? It's on petern's server, 1.0.0-beta1,
06:50<planetmaker>I'm talking about train #23
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06:51<Eddi|zuHause>switched on pbs reservations and checked for stale reservations?
06:51<planetmaker>yes. They're always on
06:51<planetmaker>and there's no stale reservation
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>have a screenshot?
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06:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm... gtg, food and family
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06:54<planetmaker>... hm... it solved when another train reached the station. Afterwards the train also left the depot. I wonder why... Luckily I have a save
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07:05<planetmaker>hm... posted here:
07:05<planetmaker>have to go now... so it won't get forgotten ;-)
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07:29<Ammler>peter's server has a good example grid lock, because pbs has other wait times than the other signals.
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07:36-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
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07:55<dragonhorseboy>any of you know whatever happened to the basecost.grf download link? :/ < needs a copy of it again
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08:08<@Rubidium>I think the link still exists
08:08<@Rubidium>whether the thing it's linked to still exists is something else
08:08<dragonhorseboy>rubidium hmm well clicking on it gets a 404 error .. think something went on with the ppcis server
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08:10<dragonhorseboy>ah well guess I'll have to save the server for another time
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08:15<dragonhorseboy>hmm maybe a rv+boat only server hehe
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08:26<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: I once uploaded it to bananas too
08:27<dragonhorseboy>ah ok didn't think you would be around now ammler .. guess I'll check that
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08:29<dragonhorseboy>ammler btw you still working on any station grfs these days or no?
08:30<Ammler>I never did
08:30<Ammler>and btw. the grf is for sure in our grfpack
08:31<Ammler>I can't nfo, I just do sometimes some litle Action0 hacks.
08:31<dragonhorseboy>ah ok
08:32<dragonhorseboy>btw one curious question anyhow but where did the co-op mode go to or was I using some kind of night build before? (not the old mini-in .. there was a different coop play after that one)
08:32<dragonhorseboy>if you're not sure thats ok
08:32<Ammler>you might mean is2
08:32<dragonhorseboy>ah..yeah that name sounded familiar...ty...brb
08:33<Ammler>that is still avaible on tt-forums
08:33<dragonhorseboy>found it
08:33<dragonhorseboy>I didn't recall whatever the name was before till you mentioned it
08:34<dragonhorseboy>hmm beta5 now .. quite a way from beta2 I used now that I recall it
08:34*dragonhorseboy waits for it to download :)
08:35<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: anyway, thanks for report the 404, fixed.
08:37<dragonhorseboy>the reason I was asking about is2 was that while playing a quick game yesterday (all japan grfs and industry:none basically) there were some commentings on sharing the busy stations instead of having to build several random seperate ones
08:37<dragonhorseboy>might see what goes on if I can get these two people to play is2 as well :)
08:38<Ammler>there should still be some is2 server running
08:38<dragonhorseboy>really? hmm ok one moment to get the is2 folder launched :p
08:38<roboboy>im on one
08:40<dragonhorseboy>ah hrm seem they didn't add the skip-sound-folder thing in the is2 build as well.. grr
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08:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18640 /trunk/src/ (core/smallvec_type.hpp network/network_content_gui.cpp):
08:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix (r18633): don't assert when accessing first invalid item, it's used quite often in the code
08:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Revert (r18637): it's not needed any more
08:49<Forked>urgh, if only station coverage was one more tile :)
08:51<dragonhorseboy>ammler .. yeah 0.7.5 could skip needing any sound files if user wanted to .. seem is2 build doesn't have this
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08:53<dragonhorseboy>hmm where to find the sound files tho >_<
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08:55<dragonhorseboy>ok got it finally .. roboboy you said you're already in an is2 game now?
08:57<roboboy>jonty has one
08:57<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: you mean the empty
08:57<dragonhorseboy>that I just noticed .. one of the grf isn't in the banana list tho so looking online now
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08:57<roboboy>get it via pikkawiki
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09:01<dragonhorseboy>ok downloading the rest now ... :)
09:03<dragonhorseboy>hey what happened? server went off >_<
09:03<dragonhorseboy>***** :p
09:04*dragonhorseboy pokes jonty-comp
09:04<dragonhorseboy><wanted to see what it was like
09:07<roboboy>hm interesting
09:11<dragonhorseboy>still offline :p
09:14<roboboy>his dedicated hosting might be playing up
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09:29<dragonhorseboy>hey tokai
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10:20<Kovensky>there's a city in the desert; I ship it passengers, water and food
10:20<Kovensky>and yet it won't grow :(
10:20<Kovensky>5 years and it's still 715 inhabitants large
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10:46<dragonhorseboy>kovensky I've never played tropical that much .. usually with pineapple+additionals anyway
10:47<dragonhorseboy>its nice for a slow steady game where you're not able to earn much in first place and so keeping small independent networks
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11:09<Luukland>Good afternoon guys, can someone tell me the setting I need to disable to disable trains turning around at signals (because to long waiting?)
11:11<Luukland>Ah found it myselve;
11:11<Luukland>wait_oneway_signal = 15
11:11<Luukland>wait_twoway_signal = 41
11:11<Luukland>wait_for_pbs_path = 30
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11:11<Kovensky>set to 255
11:11<Kovensky>that disables it
11:13<SpComb^>should be default :/
11:13<SpComb^>it usually just makes the problem worse after some nasty traffic jam
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, it should not be default, the reversal algorithm for pbs should be improved
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>it should only reverse if it can actually reserve a path
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>and those settings should be available from the gui
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11:19<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: when do you need a train to reverse?
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: occasionally that can resolve deadlocks while you are not looking
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: ideally, a train should warn that it is stuck before reversing
11:20<Ammler>my experience is that revering trains produce deadlocks :-)
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11:24<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but you don't build flat junctions ;)
11:25<Ammler>but something for sure, you can't disable pbs waiting and enable the block signal waiting, either you disable both or none.
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't ever build block signals anymore
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>althoug, since pbs, you can get most flat junctions blocking-free at the cost of long signal distances
11:27<Ammler>well, I prefer compact lines than 10 parallel lines
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>i meant deadlock-free
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11:34<SpComb^>flat junctions are ok
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>some of my non-pbs flat junctions were amazingly effective ;)
11:38<Ammler>well, if every week one train uses your junction, it is easy to be effective :-P
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, they are fine for "medium" traffic
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>for "high" traffic, the chance of deadlocks increases drastically
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12:01<dihedral>TrueBrain, what are you doing not in 'the other channel'?
12:01<dihedral>anyway - would be quite cool to have an icon on informing if all grf's of the server are available via bananas :-)
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18641 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 6 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 15 changes by 2rB
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 4 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 45 changes by motorolavn, nglekhoi
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13:52<SpComb^>I think my track layouts are a bit too detailed, adding in two pieces of track at a station's junction-area caused a 60-train jam-up :(
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14:28<TrueBrain>dihedral: that indeed is a good idea :) If you write the patch, I will review it ;) :p
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14:58<__ln>uh oh
14:59<__ln>how long does it take to the US by ferry?
14:59<__ln>west coast
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15:04<andythenorth>__ln: took me a couple of hours
15:05<andythenorth>US -> Canada :)
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16:16<andythenorth>FIRS has mostly the same cargos and industries in the main three climates...
16:16<andythenorth>does that harm the game's charm?
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17:31<sparr>over in #openttdcoop we are playing a game where inflation is causing some previously-very-profitable trains to become unprofitable. is that expected?
17:34<sparr>will that trend continue? that is, is there no way to make profit in the year 3000+ ?
17:35<@peter1138>yes, nope
17:35<@peter1138>well, inflation will stop at some point
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>inflation should stop after 130 years or so
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>or 170?
17:36<sparr>our game is in 2219
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>so if you started in 2050 that's 170 years
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18:02<Eddi|zuHause>happy end of christmas
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18:03<SpComb^>is it official now?
18:03<PeterT>Why is it end?
18:03<PeterT>Oh, that last possible time zone...
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>christmas ends on the 26th
18:04<SpComb^>or GMT+1
18:04<murr4y>christmas lasts til easter!
18:12<sparr>i read a spec fiction story a long time ago about the commercialization of christmas
18:12<sparr>main character was a marketing guy for a big retail store
18:13<sparr>the "christmas season" started in july
18:13<sparr>the punchline of the whole book was at the very end when he couldn't figure out why his girlfriend's quaint family only celebrated on "the last day of the season"
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18:19<Terkhen>good night
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18:51<sparr>is there a way to get a plane to divert for repairs when it breaks down far from its destination, without having it always stop at an intermediate airport?
18:52<SpComb^>service it more often
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18:52<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: no.
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: as there is no such thing as "air-waypoints", you can't sensibly use conditional orders
18:54<SpComb^>navigational beacons!
18:54<SpComb^>and an ATC game-mode!
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: i think someone made an extensive suggestion topic about that
18:56<SpComb^>one's always free to make suggestions
18:58<Ammler>couldn't you set a plane order with no-load and no-unload?
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19:02<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: a) you can't set both no-unload and no-load, b) that still means it has to land
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>and i still think a) is a bad restriction
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19:22<sparr>SpComb^: its a slow plane on a long trip, im already servicing it at both ends
19:25<@orudge>build an airport in the middle perhaps?
19:25<@orudge>which you can set to no load/no unload
19:25<@orudge>or indeed, just use a service option
19:25<@orudge>if there's one for airports
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20:06<SpComb^>sparr: if it's breaking down in mid-flight, then you need to service it in mid-flight or such
20:06<SpComb^>me, I just play with breakdowns disabled :)
20:06<SpComb^>(and servicing)
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20:27<kd5pbo>So, openttd on opensolaris seems to have a problem figuring out window sizes.
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20:29<Eddi|zuHause>hey, it's funny when cp segfaults ;)
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20:35<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: you have a funny system :-P
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>well. i was trying to get a less funny system, but i presume some things should not be done on a live system :p
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20:43<sparr>some griefers joined my company before i set a password, in a network game
20:43<sparr>is there any way to get rid of them?
20:44<PeterT>the edit message for this edit made me laugh really hard:
20:44<PeterT>look at the latest edit :-D
20:44<sparr>well, that blows
20:44<sparr>just wasted 2 hours then
20:44<sparr>now someone is spending my millions griefing other players
20:45<PeterT>What server is this?
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: only the server admin can kick people
20:47<sparr>i don't know what server
20:47<sparr>i didn't even know he was there until someone told me
20:47<Ammler>sparr: you can set a "default password" so it automatically protect the company on creation
20:47<sparr>Ammler: how?
20:47<sparr>that's good to know in the future, doesn't help now
20:47<sparr>he just ruined this game for multiple people
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you should only play on reliably moderated servers
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>if a moderator/admin is active, he can quickly deal with such persons
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>or load a backup
20:51<sparr>well, i'm done with non-coop multiplayer
20:51<sparr>that's really shitty game design
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, sure, blame your stupidity on the game
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20:57<sparr>a) this sort of griefing shouldn't be possible in the first place
20:57-!-Administrador [~Administr@] has quit [autokilled: Do not spam other people. Mail if you feel this is in error. (2009-12-27 01:57:52)]
20:57<sparr>b) I did nothing stupid. allowing people to take over my company by default is poor design
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21:02<PeterT>Quite an annoying bug:
21:03<sparr>c) not only was it a waste of my already-played time, but i had to FIGHT the griefer to undo what he was doing with my money
21:03<sparr>so i just spent another 20 minutes un-griefing
21:05<sparr>need a "dissolve company and destroy all property that i own" button
21:05<sparr>for a while he was building faster than i could sell-and-dynamite
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21:10<sparr>you have to be in a network game to set it? then i don't feel wrong at all, since i couldn't have set it before playing my first non-coop network game
21:11<PeterT>You could set it in config, so no.
21:13<PeterT>something like that
21:14<sparr>@ needing to edit config by hand
21:14<sparr>@ the thought process behind a design where that is an excuse for otherwise poor "security"
21:15<sparr>openttd griefer howto: join game, join most successful company with no password, ruin the game for people.
21:16<sparr>i can think of at least 3 ways the game could prevent that
21:16<sparr>make "open" companies opt-in instead of opt-out. notify a player when someone joins their company. allow the original player of a company to kick new players out of it.
21:19<sparr>since it is certain that there will always be new players who haven't figured out how to set a password yet, no player-interaction-required solution will work
21:19<PeterT>Do you know C++?
21:20*sparr knows where this is going
21:21<PeterT>write a patch
21:22<Sacro>sparr: if you don't set a password then fool on you
21:22<Sacro>and you do get a message when someone joins a company
21:23<sparr>Sacro: what does the message look like?
21:24<sparr>i apparently had 2 people in my company and didn't know it until people started complaining about "me" griefing
21:24<+glx>you can set default password in your current dead game :)
21:24<sparr>glx: just did
21:24<+glx>it will be used for next one
21:24<sparr>but the problem isn't me in my future games
21:24<sparr>it's me in this game, and other players in future games
21:25<sparr>there will always be people who haven't figured out how to set a password yet
21:25<sparr>as long as those people's companies can be taken over, it's a problem
21:25<Sacro>sparr: you'll get something like "suchandsuch has joined the game"
21:25<Sacro>a problem for them perhaps
21:26<sparr>yes, that message is familiar
21:26<sparr>and no, not a problem for them
21:26<sparr>a problem for me
21:27<sparr>in this case, the griefer inconvenienced me some, but i think it was even worse for the people he "attacked" with my company
21:27<sparr>next time i will be on the other end of the problem... and it will still be a problem
21:28<Sacro>meh, just kick those that don't set a pw in the first 5 mins
21:28<Sacro>and then autoclean their company
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21:29<sparr>an excellent item for the "how to discourage new players from playing again" list
21:30<Sacro>it'll learn em though
21:30<sparr>also, on a similar subject...
21:30<sparr>there seems to be no way to identify which player is performing particular actions
21:30<sparr>is that right?
21:31<sparr>the person who got attacked in that game asked me to stop blocking him
21:31<sparr>not realizing that it wasn't me
21:32<Sacro>sounds about right
21:32<Sacro>server could log i guess
21:32<Sacro>anyway, i'm off to bed, night
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22:08<sparr>I play a lot of online games. strategy, shooter, puzzle, rpg. competitive, coop, single player, etc. OpenTTD is the only game I have ever played where another player can take control of my position by default. Also the only one where there is no way to tell which player is performing a particular action. both major deficiencies, imho
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23:52<sparr>and then there is one player using trains to destroy another player's buses
23:52<sparr>seems like multiplayer is pretty worthless outside of coop
23:54<PeterT>That's just blocking
23:55<PeterT>worthless pieces of ... who do that
23:57<sparr>what is up with road vehicles not honoring train-crossing lights?
23:58<PeterT>There is a patch for that
23:58<sparr>ignoring the offensive playing, that mechanic just seems broken
23:58<sparr>i see it in single player, my trains often run into AI buses that park on the tracks
---Logclosed Sun Dec 27 00:00:19 2009