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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-27

---Logopened Sun Dec 27 00:00:19 2009
00:01<PeterT>does anyone know if there is a patch for multiple join airports?
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01:20<Rhamphoryncus>sparr: it's a long standing "feature"
01:21<Rhamphoryncus>Just like plane crashes
01:23<neigh> lol
01:23<Rhamphoryncus>That's not a jpeg..
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01:24<Rhamphoryncus>And since that person has never been here before I'd say there's a good chance it's a browser exploit
01:25<Rhamphoryncus>possibly just a goatse. Hard to tell, since I have no intention of letting it past adblock
01:27<roboboy>my client tried showing it inline but couldnt
01:29<roboboy>grr the server I was playing crashed
01:46*sparr guards his bus convoys with perpendicular rail at every tile
02:22<sparr>Rhamphoryncus: it just seems like the game is designed for "unfair" play
02:22<Rhamphoryncus>No, the game is designed for friendly play
02:23<Rhamphoryncus>It can't stop an openly malicious player
02:47<sparr>it could try
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04:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18642 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#3432]: when a company goes bankrupt and has vehicles on a drive through road stop that is not theirs, the 'filled' cache of the road stops would get corrupted
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04:49<Zuu>sparr: Many suggested ways of trying to stop malicious players can be exploited.
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05:59<Benny>need some help with rcon again..
05:59<Benny>i type "rcon password set server_name value", but it keeps trying to explain how i'm supposed to do it..
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06:03<Benny>o wait, got it
06:03<Benny>one is supposed to use ""'s
06:07<@peter1138>The problem could be, STEL is a TTO cargo type, that gets defined by the patch in temperate anyway and in turn checking it via \7C will always return true.
06:07<@peter1138>^ most likely because... steel exists in temperate :s
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06:11<@peter1138>hehe, we're top of
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07:10*jonty-comp isn't quite sure who to poke, but the devzone redmine appears to be broken
07:10<jonty-comp>sometimes I can't connect, and sometimes I get a "rails application failed to start properly" or something similar
07:11<jonty-comp>ooh wait
07:11<jonty-comp>something is loading sloooowly
07:13<andythenorth>peter1138: STEL problem is fixed ;)
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07:18<@peter1138>the action 7 works fine for me
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07:36*Zuu feels like he want to develop something
07:36<Zuu>or I could continue reading the "Effective C++" book.
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07:55*andythenorth big trucks
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07:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18643 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3436]: rotation could not be changed for heightmaps
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm... how do i grep for <tab> character?
08:10<@Rubidium>that is a good question :)
08:10<__ln>do you actually want to know how do you enter a tab character on the command line?
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>i don't care about entering, i want to tell grep to search for it
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>there must be some kind of escape sequence or something
08:12<__ln>well, the character itself seems to work
08:13<Ammler>grep -E "\t"
08:13<__ln>can be entered by pressing Strg+V and then tab. needs to be in quotes.
08:15<Ammler>or -P
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that doesn't seem to work properly
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>as a workaround, i used \W now
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>aah... awk seems to support \t
08:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18644 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3434]: company league window was too narrow
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08:32<pete>i have a problem with using tram-tracks from other companies
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08:33<pete>my trams doesnt leave my opponents tracks, unless i control his company
08:33<pete>is this a bug or a known limitation?
08:37<pete>anyone there?
08:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18645 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3433](r942): out-of-bounds access in the 'Start new multiplayer game' GUI
08:38<roboboy>there are people in here
08:41<pete>Can anyone help me with the tram-question?
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>pete: that seems to be a bug, provide a savegame at
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08:41<Terkhen>what do you think about this patch?
08:42<pete>I've to register at :-S
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>pete: yes, for potential further questions
08:43<pete>I think the user should decide for himself, if he wants to be asked later or not
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>in all experience, people's "first" bug report is often useless because important information is missing
08:44<pete>Well, i have to validate my email, too. It should be hard to report bugs, eh?
08:44<pete>i'll post my savegame in the tt-forums...
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>that's a bad idea
08:47<pete>force users to register and validate their email, too.
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>of course it does...
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08:48<pete>I can follow you why users have to sing up, but if someone wants to provide an "invaild" email he can, even with validating his adress.
08:49<pete>he can use Instant-Mail-providers or he can use a spam-account
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08:53<edeca>Is the "Two-way quadruple track layout" from the best 4 track main line solution for fast and slow trains?
08:54<pete>the best solution for fast and slow trains is to sort them on seperate tracks (like in real life)
08:55<pete>and the "two-way quartruple track layout" looks _very_ unrealisic
08:55<pete>(and it takes long to build, it takes long to change it...)
08:55<edeca>Er, sure. But I'm playing a game, not trying to rebuild the good old east coast mainline.
08:56<edeca>And there's no way I'm building a completely different set of rails for every speed of vehicle :)
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08:56<pete>if you bulid 4 tracks, it is easier IMO to build one two-way-track for slow trains and one for fast
08:57<edeca>And how do you force trains down them, many waypoints?
08:57<pete>but the two-way quartuple will work, too, but i think it is more a demonstration of YAPP as a useful method ingame.
08:57<pete>no, some waypoints
08:58<pete>only on crossings, where the train is possible to change from slow to fast track is a waypoint needed.
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08:58<edeca>I much prefer the idea of 2 lines in either direction with switching places, which has always been the way I have seen it done
08:59<pete>yes, but then the trains can use both tracks.
08:59<edeca>Sure, and the fast ones switch tracks if they are stuck behind a slow one
08:59<pete>so the slow trains will slow down the faster ones
08:59<pete>because the train will use the track witch is free
08:59<edeca>I was asking about the wiki page above as it is more compact
09:00<pete>and i said, the example from the wiki page above may work, but not perfect and it is very time-expensive to build and handle it, if you design it with many crossings.
09:00<pete>if you design it with fewer crossings, it looses it advantage.
09:01<edeca>It is even more hassle (IMO) to build waypoints and change all orders
09:02<pete>perhaps this one can help you more
09:03<edeca>Eh the 4 way one is basically a 4 track version of
09:03<edeca>That isn't too much hassle to build, I might give it a go
09:03<Luukland>Is there someone from France here who can help me solve a small problem (in private)?
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09:05<edeca>French police after you? :)
09:05<Luukland>No no, just some internet questions
09:06<__ln>google translator helps you: "Il était déjà cassé quand je suis arrivé."
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09:07<pete>edeca: IMO this is design is only useful for low-traffic lines with som express-trains.
09:08<pete>for heavy-traffic-lines with much slow and much fast trains, i personaly prefer a different design
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>so... why does brick chain not work in arctic?
09:14<edeca>pete: Do you have any screenshots of the design you prefer?
09:15<pete>well, simply two lines with waypoints after the junctions
09:15<pete>to get the trains on the right track
09:16<edeca>Still, if a fast train breaks down with a fast train behind it, they are stuck :)
09:16<pete>Eddi|zuHause: Hmm, it seems that the "bug" is not realy affected by the opponets tracks, but i cannot locate it better...
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>pete: you sure that the tracks are actually connected?
09:18<pete>Eddi|zuHause: Yas. One tram, that i forced to enter the track, now use it normal.
09:18<pete>the others does, after i changed the pathfinder to YAPP
09:18<pete>The problem seems to be located in the original pathfinder
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause>pete: i would update to trunk or 1.0.0-beta1, the original pathfinder is removed there
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09:19<roboboy>for everything?
09:20<roboboy>I thought I read that YAPF was crap for ships?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>no, for road vehicles and trains...
09:21<pete>Eddi|zuHause: oh, but the now ones consume more resources?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>pete: no, they shouldn't
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09:22<Eddi|zuHause>they optimised the hell out of yapf, it even beat the original pathfinder in some tests
09:22<pete>In perfomance or pathfinding?
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>in performance. in pathfinding is trivial ;)
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09:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r18646 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3418]: [YAPP] Don't extend the reserved path through a newly built path signal directly in front of a stopped or loading train. Also restore the reserved path in more cases after removing a signal.
09:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r18647 /trunk/src/ (pbs.cpp pbs.h train_cmd.cpp): -Fix: [YAPP] A train inside a station was not always found when checking for trains on a reserved path.
09:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r18648 /trunk/src/pbs.cpp: -Fix/Feature [FS#3430-ish]: [YAPP] Treat the backside of an one-way path signals as a safe waiting point.
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09:38<Eddi|zuHause>that last one sounds funny ;)
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09:44<pete>Eddi|zuHause: Is 1.0.0 the direct sequel to 0.7.5 or is it a seperate branch?
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>1.0 is the successor to 0.7
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09:49<pete>uh, what is that: NOT_REACHED triggered at line 4143 of ..\src\train_cmd.cpp
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09:55<pete>aren't savegames upward-compatible from 0.7.5 to 1.0.0?
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10:07<Zuu>pete: the good news is that if you sign up for, then the same account can be used on the wiki, bananas etc.
10:07<pete>But i dont need to edit wiki pages or upload files to bananas
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>pete: good news is, you can report more than one bug with the same account
10:11<Zuu>And you will get a sumary page with all your reported bugs :-)
10:12<pete>the most of my "bugs" would be either jet reported or are user-mistakes ;)
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10:13<roboboy>if we ever get mp acounts, would they be tied to the website accounts
10:13*roboboy hides
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10:13<nicfer>what does mean 'variety' in the create terrain window?
10:14<pete>have anyone other expected crashes while loading 0.7.5-saves in 1.0.0b
10:14<PeterT>pete: No
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>pete: just post the damn savegame already...
10:15<Zuu>See, another possible use for your bugs account :-)
10:15<SpComb^>so yay
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>a dev will then look at it, and tell you whether it's a user mistake
10:15<SpComb^>sitting in a car driving north across Finland, playing OpenTTD online, and drinking a coke
10:15<SpComb^>very convenient
10:15*Zuu hopes SpComb^ does not drive the car also.
10:16<pete>if someone activates my account i can report i, but i resist in validating my mail
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>why does a git update take so damn forever...
10:16<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: because you are using NTFS?
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>pete: if you are not going to actually help, you can as well leave here... we certainly have no use for such ranting...
10:17<pete>hmm, i can report the force-registering as bug with my account, too =)
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: not in a way where they could get in contact with each other
10:19<Zuu>Okay, so it is slow also in Linux?
10:19<Kovensky>why are you using git?
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>because fonsinchen forces me to.
10:20<Kovensky>oh, another project
10:21<Kovensky>also, don't you mean "git pull"? :P
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>whatever is the one that takes forever :p
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10:32<Kovensky>I don't know of any command that could take forever
10:32<Kovensky>other than `git fetch`, and that's only if your internet is slow
10:33<Kovensky>maybe merge / rebase of multiple huge trees
10:33<SmatZ>while (1);
10:33<Kovensky>but I don't think it would be slow on merge / rebase since it was designed for doing those fast
10:35<Zuu>PeterT: The UKRS server is yours?
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes. of course my internet is slow ;)
10:35<PeterT>Zuu: No ;-)
10:36<PeterT>SmatZ: Thanks for fixing that bug
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: no, it's the other peter
10:36<Zuu>Oh ok
10:36<Zuu>Do you know when it restarts?
10:37<Zuu>Ie is it soonish?
10:37<SmatZ>PeterT: you are welcome :) FS#3427 has simple fix , but it's not the right way to handle that
10:37<Kovensky><Eddi|zuHause> yes. of course my internet is slow ;) <-- heh, how slow?
10:37<PeterT>SmatZ: Ah, I read your comments
10:37<@peter1138>no fixed time
10:37<PeterT>something for alberth?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>very slow.
10:37<SmatZ>I don't know :)
10:39<thingwath>Eddi|zuHause: Forever means that it took much more than you expected (like 10 minutes instead of 10 seconds), or that you are still waiting for the command to finish? :)
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: as in way longer than an equivalent svn up
10:40<thingwath>And was it over HTTP or not?
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10:40<Kovensky><Eddi|zuHause> very slow. <-- :<
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think it was http
10:42<jonty-comp>aww, the devzone is down again :(
10:43<jonty-comp>planetmaker: you're the most obvious person I know to ping: the devzone says "Rails application failed to start properly"
10:43<jonty-comp>it did it this morning, but then it started working again
10:53<jonty-comp>also, dihedral: ping
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11:48<Eddi|zuHause>so who wanted to implement these diagonal bridges again?
11:48<Sweet|Home>diagonal bridges? sounds cool
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11:48<@peter1138>YOU DID
11:48<Sweet|Home>i want to be able to build diagonal railway up/down elevations
11:49<Kovensky>diagonal tunnels!
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11:51<jonty-comp>diagonal stations!
11:51<jonty-comp>diagonal bus stops!
11:51<Sweet|Home>22.5 degree railways \o/
11:51<jonty-comp>change the game to a trimetric projection, like SimCity 4!
11:51<Muxy>diagonal tunnel, bridges, road, bridge crossing
11:52<PeterT>Where did you find that patches?
11:52<jonty-comp>nowehere, they don't exist
11:52<jonty-comp>yet! :p
11:52<PeterT>ah, just a thought?
11:52<jonty-comp>well, you missed the previous 5 lines
11:52<Muxy>and super tunnel : click to build entry, and click to build exit
11:52<@peter1138>diagonal stations existed, hehe
11:52<Sweet|Home>that would be awesome Muxy
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>Muxy: that patch actually exists
11:53*PeterT likes this patch:
11:53<Muxy>and set the tunnel lenght to 1
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>someone hacked a little bit ;)
11:53<jonty-comp>now you're thinking with portals
11:53<Muxy>build an entry at one map edge
11:53<Sweet|Home>then you could build an entire subway system under a town
11:53<Muxy>and the exit at the opposite edge
11:54*peter1138 ponders playing portal
11:54<Sweet|Home>i just grabbed loads of scenario's but all the towns are already huge....:S
11:54<Muxy>Eddi: what patche : super tunnel ?
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11:57<Kovensky><Muxy> build an entry at one map edge
11:57<Kovensky><Muxy> and the exit at the opposite edge
11:57<Kovensky><jonty-comp> now you're thinking with portals
11:58<Kovensky>I prefer this order of the sentences
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12:45<Bjelleklang>does anyone know if there are any functions in the AI API for uppercasing the first character in a string?
12:46<andythenorth>I am coding a large swap-body fast should it load :)
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>fast, as in simply switching the trailer?
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>or do i have the wrong picture in mind?
12:53<andythenorth>fast, as in drop one palette, pick up another:
12:53-!-PeterT [] has quit [Quit: bye for now...]
12:53<andythenorth>also, I've drawn things a bit small :|
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12:56<dihedral>jonty-comp, pong
12:58<andythenorth>steel is heavy, right?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>1t of steel is heavier than 1t of feathers?
13:00<andythenorth>how fast is it travelling?
13:00<andythenorth>does 1t of steel distort spacetime more than 1t of feathers?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i have seen either steel or feathers travel anywhere close to light speed ;)
13:02<andythenorth>if I've drawn vehicles too small for their capacity to be believable, do I
13:02<andythenorth>(a) redraw them
13:02<andythenorth>(b) reduce the capacity
13:05<Noldo>c) forget about suspending disbelif
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>i can't possibly decide that without seeing it "live"
13:06<andythenorth>I like what Noldo said :) (but I'm not doing it!)
13:06<andythenorth>I've dropped the capacity
13:06<andythenorth>now here's a funny thing
13:06<andythenorth>trains are more fun with unrealistic capacities
13:07<andythenorth>it makes for longer trains. Pikka and Dan MacK set them up to about 1/3 of real life
13:07<andythenorth>road vehicles are more fun with slightly higher capacity than real life
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i want longer passenger wagons :(
13:08<SpComb^>refit cattle cars to passengers
13:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: surely achievable?
13:09<andythenorth>is there a way to adjust the number of units of passengers?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but a) MB is likely not going to ever release his new set, and b) i'm afraid they won't be long enough then
13:10<SpComb^>dbsetxl 0.9?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>that i mean, yes
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>he said he's going to make them longer, but not 16/8, because that'd be too glitchy...
13:11<andythenorth>hmm. no easy way to adjust capacities with newgrf
13:12<andythenorth>use NA City set? Produces prodigious amounts of passengers...
13:13*SpComb^ plays TTRS with 1/4th pax
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i want one wagon the length of two original wagons
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>nothing about capacity
13:15<andythenorth>well that's a bit crazy, so I can't discuss it any further :P
13:16<andythenorth>will look strange in curves, no?
13:16<Coco-Banana-Man>SpComb^: Does Town cargo generation factor -8 mean that towns produce only 1/8 of the original amount?
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably one of the glitches that MB was talking about
13:18<Coco-Banana-Man>then that's how I'm playing atm - with NARS, NACitySet and also TTRS
13:19<Coco-Banana-Man>(and ECS - even if I'm missing limestone then.)
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13:21<Zuu>Bjelleklang: Have you checked the squirrel docs?
13:21<Bjelleklang>yeah, found the functions for getting the full string to upper/lower
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13:22<Bjelleklang>does Squirrel treat a string as an array consisting of characters similar to other languages?
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13:22<Zuu>I think so
13:23<Bjelleklang>ok, then it shouldn't be a big problem writing the functions I need myself :)
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13:24<Zuu>Are you doing some kind of name generator?
13:26<Bjelleklang>yeah, generally just playing around with the AI API :)
13:26<Bjelleklang>but atm I'm trying to make a function that generates semi-random companynames
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13:31<Zuu>Some day I should pick up PAXLink again at least to the point of getting next version out. :-)
13:32<Zuu>The version in development has quite some nice improvements, though the very last svn-version crashes if the tabu search has marked all neighbours as tabu.
13:34<andythenorth>anyone want to play test my new HEQS vehicles?
13:34<andythenorth>couple of new ones...
13:35<planetmaker>Zuu: let it issue a swearing message instead like "this sux. I cannot build anywhere :-(" :-)
13:36<Zuu>planetmaker: Well, it is actually an tabu search optimizer for the airport pairs. It is supposed to come up with connection changes.
13:37<planetmaker>what does "tabu" stand for? I have the feeling not for what I think it might be...
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm still interested in this "cargo 'tram'" idea you talked about a few weeks ago
13:44<andythenorth>narrow gauge industrial?
13:45<+tokai>planetmaker: something you're not supposed to talk about? :)
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, those
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18649 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by Tve4
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by dlunch
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 7 changes by 2rB
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 39 changes by motorolavn, nglekhoi
13:45<planetmaker>hehe, tokai :-) yes
13:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's a back-burner project ;)
13:46<andythenorth>but things like this:
13:46<Zuu>planetmaker: It is a way of doing local search to avoid getting stuck in local optimums. (Optimization)
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: <-- possible inspiration
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>engine for 900mm coal transport network near Leipzig
13:47<Zuu>It marks the n last visited solutions as tabu and will not visit them untill they are removed from the tabu-list.
13:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that sort of thing
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13:50<planetmaker>hm... so it really means that... but shouldn't it be "taboo" in English?
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14:05<Michalxo>hello all! Merry Christmas! :-)
14:06<Michalxo>if anyone have a bit of a time to respond my question, I'd be very pleased
14:06<Michalxo>Does openSFX works with 0.7.5 version
14:07<Michalxo>it's the latest stable... in readme there is 8.0.0+ (what?)
14:07<Luukland>Please note that this release does not add support for OpenSFX. For that you still need the nightlies/trunk.
14:07<Luukland>Direct quote from website
14:07<Luukland>Here u go, if you want to read it again:
14:07<Michalxo>I am going to read there more :-D just installed it today and test it.. GFX works great :-)
14:07<Michalxo>thank you!
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14:09<Zuu>planetmaker: That might be the correct English word.
14:09<Michalxo>damn! I should DL 1.0.0. instead of 0.7.5 lol.. I am going to DL the christmas present.. thank you guys :-)
14:09<Michalxo>just a question about MP.. is it possible to save MP games?
14:10<planetmaker>did you try?
14:10<Michalxo>not yet
14:10<Michalxo>just asking...
14:10-!-FooBar [] has joined #openttd
14:10<Michalxo>I am instaling the game
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14:11<Zuu>as a you probably understand it is indeed possible.
14:12<Michalxo>great great, thanks!
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>hm... in docs/landscape.html, the owner information seems a bit outdated
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>it talks about 8 players
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>Michalxo: mind that you're probably going to end up in the wrong company when loading in single player, so use the company cheat
14:26<Michalxo>right now, I am starting 1.0.0b
14:28<Michalxo>Eddi|zuHause, could you please test multiplayer with me?
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's likely not going to help you ;)
14:31<Michalxo>Eddi|zuHause, I don't understand
14:33<jonty-comp>dihedral: counter-pong
14:35<Michalxo>hm.. I am unable to join any multiplayer game :-(
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14:41<sparr>Zuu: make new companies not open for joining by default. alert a player when someone joins their company. allow a company founder to kick people out of their company. track who builds things (for the query tool maybe?) so admins know who to kick.
14:41<sparr>these don't seem heavily exploitable to me
14:41<Luukland>:s Just make a password required?
14:42<Luukland>With a small patch?
14:42-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
14:42<Muxy>mean company master
14:42<sparr>Luukland: password required is one easy way to implement that
14:42<Muxy>make the company public, and create user groups
14:42-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:43<Luukland>Muxy! Remember: KISS
14:43<Muxy>and choose what action can be made by group
14:43<sparr>I am quite angry that not only was MY fun ruined by someone who joined my company, but so was the fun of multiple other players who he "attacked"
14:43<Muxy>didnt you have a company password ?
14:43<Luukland>Hmmm, some servers do have this "company password required before you can build" already implented
14:44<Muxy>hehe goulp patch
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: 1) how to handle someone leaving and coming back later, if the company is locked?, 2) that already happens, possibly can be more prominent. 3) again, how about somebody leaving, someone else joining in the mean time, first person coming back. 4) insane memory requirements. how to decide who was who later on [e.g. changing ip]
14:44<sparr>Muxy: no. I do now, but that doesn't solve the problem, since new players will keep not having them
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: it's not like you are the first person to complain, but nobody had a conclusive suggestion yet
14:45<Muxy>sparr: what exactly is your problem ?
14:45-!-Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
14:45<Muxy>the goulp patch does not allow a client to play without password set.
14:45<Luukland>its a very nice patch
14:45<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: unlock it if no one is playing it, perhaps. what does the alert look like (I asked yesterday and no one could tell me)? founder could be as simple as name, as complex as a hash of identifying information. tracking builders could just be by name
14:46<sparr>Muxy: I joined my first network multiplayer no-coop game, made a lot of money, then someone joined my company and spent all my money attacking other players
14:46<sparr>road blocking, trains-vs-buses, etc
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: names can easily be faked, and ip-addresses are too dynamic
14:47<Muxy>ok, then if you create a company on a OpenTTD Goulp Server, the company password is mandatory for playing
14:47<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: names cant be faked in realtime
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: and again, there is not enough space to store any such data
14:47<sparr>Muxy: how does it enforce that? i mean, what happens to players without a password?
14:47<Muxy>they ccan build anything
14:47<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: I want to know who is doing things while they happen. after is less important.
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: they can be faked more easily than it takes to implement your suggestion, which makes the suggestion useless
14:48<sparr>Muxy: do they get a message of some sort?
14:48<Luukland>Yeah, a very annoyying message
14:48<sparr>can two players have the same name?
14:48<Muxy>tchat message
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: there is no such thing as "while"
14:48<Muxy>2 client same name : impossible
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>things either happen in the past or in the future
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14:48<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: when Joe Griefer builds a road, I want to know who did it
14:48<sparr>hell, just pop up the player name under the floating cost
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: you're getting kinda aggressive
14:49<Luukland>Such a harsch solution for a easy solvable problem
14:49<sparr>Luukland: what is the easy solution?
14:49<Luukland>F9 -> Set pass and dont let anybody you dont trust in
14:49<Muxy>sparr: builded land belongs to the company
14:50<sparr>Luukland: the problem isn't people joining MY company, I've fixed that. the problem is people joining the companies of other new players who haven't done that yet, of which there continue to be some
14:50<Luukland>Ah yeah and with set pass I mean a actual password, not 123 or abc
14:50<Luukland>Then use the goulp patch, it is that simple
14:50<sparr>sounds like a server patch
14:50<Luukland>Yeap, and it wont even bumb your version :)
14:50<sparr>Muxy: yes, and that was the problem then. people were accusing ME of attacking them, because the company was "sparr Transport"
14:51<sparr>Muxy: the question is which player did it, not which company
14:51<sparr>even if there was an admin online, they wouldnt have known who to kick
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: i can only repeat this one more time: it is not possible to store such data, so it cannot be displayed either
14:52<sparr>I disagree.
14:52<sparr>it wouldn't need to be stored with the price idea
14:52<sparr>just sent as it happens
14:52<Muxy>then its time to integrate the mandatory_password setting to trunk
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14:53<sparr>the server already sends a "company X just spent $Y at coordinate Z" packet (presumably) to trigger the price to float up. add to that packet "player W"
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>exactly, it says "company X", not "client X"
14:54<Michalxo>guys, you really did a GREAT job ;-)
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14:54<Muxy>client X sends a build packet to server
14:54<sparr>Muxy: right
14:54<sparr>so the server knows who it came from
14:54<Muxy>server sends the build packet to client company owner
14:54*yorick has tried to get that in at least twice
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>changing the server packages is heavily deep in the infrastructure
14:54<Muxy>client ask the owner : do you want to allow, blablabla
14:55<Muxy>client allow server to run the packet
14:55<sparr>Muxy: that would be quite unwieldy
14:55<sparr>on a per-build basis
14:55<Muxy>then company owner canot play anymore
14:55<Muxy>just say yes/no to the packets
14:55<Zuu>Uhm, AIOF_GOTO_NEAREST_DEPOT seams to get triggered sometimes when it shouldn't. Though it required a tile without a station to be sent as destination. :-s
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>again, there is no such thing as a "company owner"
14:55<Muxy>no more time to play
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>it is IMPOSSIBLE to decide who is the owner.
14:56<Zuu>AIOF_GOTO_NEAREST_DEPOT has the same integer value as the unload order flag.
14:56<Muxy>yes it
14:56<Muxy>it's the client who creates it
14:56<sparr>Muxy: Eddi|zuHause has some serious confusion between "IMPOSSIBLE" and "code not written yet"
14:56<Muxy>anyway, sparr, then use a OpenTTD goulp patched server
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>Muxy: and if that client leaves and rejoins with a different IP?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: i mean actual IMPOSSIBLE
14:57<Muxy>if company is left and no more client, then the first clien joining will become the owner
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: for any algorithm you come up with, there will be an exploit to get ownership to an unwanted person
14:58<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: that's fine, as long as it adds steps to the current easy-griefing strategy of "join the company with the most money with no password"
14:58<sparr>ANYTHING is better than how it is now
14:58<Muxy>but i'm thinking of something for public coop server
14:58<yorick>hmm actually not :(
14:59<Michalxo>thank you guys for game! Enjoy holidays and Happy new year!
14:59<yorick> it is
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause>Muxy, sparr: anyway, _please_ come up with a CONCLUSIVE, moderately SAFE and EASILY IMPLEMENTABLE solution
15:00<sparr>forget about kicking people...
15:00<sparr>is there any way in-game to see who is in your company?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: yes, in the client list
15:00<sparr>that is, how do you access the client list
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>where the company stats are, i think
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>one of those icons in the main toolbar
15:01<sparr>good to know
15:03<Bjelleklang>does anyone know if it's possible to run AI API functions from the ingame console?
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15:06<Muxy>Eddi: a KISS solution is running on goulp servers
15:08<Zuu>Bjelleklang: No that is not possible.
15:09<Zuu>You can build a function to check if a sign with a certain text exists. Then you can change your AI behaviour depending on if a specific sign exists.
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15:10<Zuu>I also have a function that puts out a break sign and stops the AI until that sign has been removed.
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15:11<Zuu>Just keep in mind that you need to use the cheat dialog and change company to your AI company in order to the AI to see the signs.
15:12<Bjelleklang>ah, I was thinking more along the lines of running an API function in order to see the raw output
15:14<Zuu>That would be useful. Your patch is welcome :-p
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>it was once suggested that squirrel may become the console language, but that wasn't followed through
15:17<Luukland>squirrel? are u sure?
15:18<Zuu>I think he is sure, since I've also heard about that.
15:20<Zuu>I think Nail was one of the reasons why the delayed it.
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think there were also concerns about unfairness, when people run an entire AI as helper script
15:23<Zuu>indeed, though it could be a restricted set of functions being available in the console.
15:24<Zuu>There was also a map generation API, but it was too slow.
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15:36<kratt>can somebody tell me how to play with 32bpp with zoom
15:37<kratt>iwe downloaded pack
15:37<kratt>50 mb
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15:42<Zuu>kratt: Didn't those 50 mb contain a readme?
15:47<+glx>you need to apply a patch too
15:48-!-yorick [] has quit [Quit: Restarting...hopefully]
15:50<kratt>you dont unpack the tar file
15:50<kratt>and what patch
15:50<kratt>For windows there are precompiled binaries by GeekToo.
15:50<kratt>i tried it on nightly
15:50<kratt>wont work
15:52<Zuu>kratt: You can unpack a tar file.
15:52<Zuu>Just as that you can unpack a zip file
15:53<kratt>okay i unpacked
15:54<kratt>now where i need to put it
15:55<kratt>and there is no readme
15:55<Zuu>okay, still from where you found out about it there should be some instructions.
15:57<kratt>it wont work
15:58<kratt>i copyed .tar to data
15:58<kratt>cant be seen on newgrf a
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16:14<Zuu>planetmaker: Actually it is Tabu Search also in English:
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16:17<SpComb^>Coco-Banana-Man: no
16:17<SpComb^>Coco-Banana-Man: -8x means roughly 1/256th
16:18<Coco-Banana-Man>ah, so 1/(2^X)?
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16:23<Coco-Banana-Man>but is it really 1/256 of the original amount?
16:23<Coco-Banana-Man>It still seems quite much passengers
16:23<Coco-Banana-Man>+to be
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know which patch/grf/whatever you use, but it's likely that everything will get rounded to 1 at these values
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>which will turn out more than simple factor of 1/256
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>@devs: i don't understand something: in docs/landscape.html it says for level crossings, bits m6:4..0 is the road owner, but also it says bit m6:1..0 is tropic zone definition... so what is it?
16:37<Hirundo>Quick look at the code suggests that the road owner is stored in m7 bits 4..0, not in m6
16:37<SmatZ>indeed :)
16:40<SmatZ>hmm it seems docs are also wrong wrt. depot owner
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i think i can do double tracks in either an 8-bit or 15-bit variant [16 bits seem to be free for rails]
16:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18650 /: -Fix: in the case of level crossing, location of the owner of road was documented wrongly (Eddi)
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>... if i can trust the docs
16:47<Hirundo>...double tracks...?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>two tracks on one tile in X or Y direction
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>plus switches, crossings, signals, etc.
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16:49<Hirundo>My mind just overflowed :) Isn't that insanely hard to code?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>possibly ;)
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>most troublesome might be vehicle movement, but that could possibly be copied from road vehicles
16:50<SpComb^>Coco-Banana-Man: yeah, at -8x, you're going to get pretty exactly 1 pax/house/some-unit-of-time
16:51<SpComb^>Coco-Banana-Man: so if you have a lot of houses, it'll still add up
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: i think houses produce once per tile loop
16:51<Coco-Banana-Man>I'm playing with 4x daylength btw
16:52<SpComb^>daylength doesn't have anything to do with town cargo generation :)
16:52<SpComb^>but yeah, I personally recommend 4x daylength and -2x town cargo
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>you shouldn't say "2x" with exponents
16:52<SpComb^>yeah, it's confusing, I give you that :(
16:55<SpComb^>latest is-it-daylength-or-cargodist-or-trunk assertion posted: Assertion failed at line 1145 of ..\src\economy.cpp: v->time_counter != 0 :(
16:56<SpComb^>I probably need to fiure outhow to use .dmp's and the .pdb's
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16:58<PeterT>Yeah, I don't have a clue on what to do with the pdb, I just know that I have to upload them
16:58<SpComb^>nor do I, but I guess it's a good thing that you do :P
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: i had one of those: Error: Assertion failed at line 1130 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTDx/cargodist/src/economy.cpp: v->load_unload_time_rem != 0
16:58<SpComb^>I gather it lets you doa post-mortem debug
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>with cargodist and timetables
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>without daylength
16:59<SpComb^>yeah, I was also tending towards a cargodist bug there
16:59<SpComb^>but looking at some other code, it seems that some uint16 tick counters might overflow in calculations involving DAY_TICKS
17:00<Zuu>PeterT: Try double clicking them? I've managed to use them once :-)
17:00<PeterT>"Windows cannot find to open with..." or whatever
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17:03<Bjelleklang>can someone have a look at a pastebin for me? This is driving me nuts :/
17:03<Zuu> ?
17:03<Bjelleklang>I'm basically trying to use a setter to set a classvariable, but no matter what I try I get an error
17:03<Bjelleklang>oh? Wasn't aware of that one
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17:04<Noldo>you didn't paste the error yout got
17:04<Bjelleklang>The error is "the index HqCity doesn't exist"
17:05<Bjelleklang>in the setter, I've tried this.HqCity, Company.HqCity, and just HqCity = "somevalue"
17:05<Noldo>does come from the constructor or the setter?
17:05<Bjelleklang>the error comes from the setter
17:06-!-lewymati [] has quit []
17:06<Zuu>How do you call the setter?
17:06<Zuu>As a static function or as a member function?
17:07<Zuu>If you call it as a static function you will get the errors that you described.
17:08<Bjelleklang>oh, that's probably where the error is :/
17:08<Bjelleklang>use this.Setter() instead of Company.Setter(), or are there other ways to do it?
17:08<Zuu>Note also that if a static function calls a non-static function you will get these kind of errors.
17:09<Zuu>local c = new Company();
17:09<Bjelleklang>ah, great!
17:11<Bjelleklang>thanks for the help :)
17:12<Zuu>Your welcome :-)
17:12<Zuu>Looking forward to seeing your AI when you get to that point. :-)
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17:21<Bjelleklang>will probably be a while, not quite sure what directions it'll go in yet :)
17:22<Bjelleklang>but hopefully it'll be a fun AI that does a little bit of all, mixed with some randomness just for fun
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17:45<+glx><SpComb^> I probably need to fiure outhow to use .dmp's and the .pdb's <-- easy, put crash.dmp, openttd.exe and the corresponding openttd.pdb in a dir, then double click on crash.dmp, then "run" (F5)
17:46<+glx>and when it asks for source file give it the path :)
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19:30<ntas>some one here??
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19:33<ntas>I need some help
19:34<dragonhorseboy>with what?
19:34<ntas>I'm playing ttd and I've looked up a coal mine that produces a lot of coal, I made a railway to a powea
19:35<ntas>now i've been waiting for some time, but it isn transporting all of the coal
19:35<dragonhorseboy>is the train set to 'wait for full load' at the coal mine and to just go to the powerplant then back?
19:36<ntas>it says it has 120 coal , but only 27 % is transported
19:37<ntas>and there is coal in my station
19:37<ntas>and it doesnt get more
19:37<ntas> can i transport all of the coal???
19:37<dragonhorseboy>how much can your train hold?
19:37<ntas>enough for the 50 in my station
19:38<dragonhorseboy>so your train is ONLY 50 tonnes of coal?
19:38<ntas>it isn't set on full load, because then i'll be waiting for an hour, because there isn't enough
19:39<ntas>the nummbers are in perspective;)
19:39<dragonhorseboy>ntas..umm .. are you sure the coal mine says 120 tonnes and your train has a capacity of 50 tonnes?
19:39<ntas>let me look the precies nummbers up for you
19:39<ntas>hang on a minute
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: "Ha, I thought the midi files are much bigger, something above mp3, but they are around 50kb" <-- it's like comparing text files to images
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19:40<dragonhorseboy>eddi :)
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>where midi is the text files (instead of letters, you have notes), and mp3 is the image file
19:42<ntas> the mine produces 136 tonnes of coal last month, witch of only 23% was transported
19:43<ntas>there is 101 tonnes of coal in my station at the moment
19:43<ntas>and I have one train with 6 time 30 tonnes of coal cappacity
19:43<ntas>what to do??:P
19:44<dragonhorseboy>hmm you sure you're not wanting to leave the train on 'wait for full load'? I mean 180 tonnes of coal on the train can't take too long to fill up from a 136 tonnes coal mine as long as your station rating is above 50%
19:45<ntas>so you think that when I put my train on full load, the amount of coal in my station will increase??
19:46<ntas>because, then i'll do that with all my trains, because I have this problem at all my stations:(
19:46<ntas>even much worse
19:46<dragonhorseboy>well're actually making it worser
19:46<dragonhorseboy>thats all I can say ;)
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19:47<dragonhorseboy>if you have a train with capacity of 180 tonnes and only pick up the immedate 60 tonnes of coal sitting at station then leave to not come back in less than ten days there's going to be coal sitting at the station and the station rating will only just go downhill and eventually start losing wanting to give you generious amounts
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19:48<ntas>ahhh...okay, i understand!, if you have a bad rating you'll get shitty amounts;)
19:49<dragonhorseboy>ya .. keep it above 50% in general ... 60+% is much better
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19:49<dragonhorseboy>70-80% is a very decent rating
19:49<ntas>okay thanks!!
19:49<ntas>I'll go and fix it;)
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 27 19:59:11 2009
---Logopened Sun Dec 27 20:48:23 2009
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21:19<sparr>am i correct in saying that "% transported" is a misnomer and actually reflects ratings?
21:20<ajmiles>i don't think so, no
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21:22<sparr>if i have trains sitting in the station all the time, how can % transported be <100%?
21:23<ajmiles>perhaps it actually has to be taken somewhere, just speculating, as I'm not sure of the answer
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21:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's some kind of average rating
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>or first of the month
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>or something
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21:30<sparr>source diving in openttd is about to become my new hobby :)
21:30<sparr>there are so many things that nobody understands completely, or the people who do aren't willing to share
21:31<sparr>in #openttdcoop we (some subset of the players) discovered today that running cost goes up based on train age
21:31<ajmiles>that's no surprise, and hardly hidden is it?
21:31<sparr>it was a big surprise for us
21:31<sparr>and it's "hidden" when inflation is on
21:32<sparr>that is, the cost goes up over time anyway, so the effect of the age of the train is obscured
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21:33<sparr>i might wager that most openttd players don't know that
21:34<ajmiles>most of the time a given train's income so incredibly outweighs the running cost it doesn't matter much
21:34<sparr>yeah, we were in the not-most of the time :)
21:34<sparr>inflation caught up, to the point where most of our trains were losing money
21:34<sparr>someone just happened to notice that younger trains were still making money
21:35<ajmiles>don't cargo payment rates go up in line with inflation?
21:35<sparr>apparently not quite enough
21:35<sparr>answering that question is another reason to go to the source :)
21:36<ajmiles>the game is so complex i would get used to going to the source :)
21:36<sparr>i also want to know all the nitty gritty details of Local Authority ratings, i'm tired of "plant trees at random until it goes up"
21:36<ajmiles>they are rather harsh
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21:36<sparr>or "oops, that demolish lowered it more than i expected, now im screwed"
21:37<ajmiles>they certainly don't much like me landscaping around their towns :)
21:37<sparr>i was trying to replace an airport with a bigger one
21:37<sparr>and accidentally replaced it with a new (different name) station
21:37<sparr>had to demolish and try again...
21:37<sparr>but the SECOND demolish lowered my rating enough that i couldn't rebuild
21:38<ajmiles>yeah, the ability to do that sort of "upgrade" would be good without a rating hit
21:38<ajmiles>you have to build intercontinental airports really early because you know upgrading later on is going to be hard
21:39<ashb>i usually buy/cordon off the land for the larger one
21:39<sparr>ashb: did that
21:39<ashb>part of the problem is tree growth is stupid
21:39<ashb>after 50years trees are *everywhere*
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>there's a setting for that now
21:40<ashb>ah that made it to trunk? cool
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>not sure about what you mean by "that", but "something" made it to trunk
21:40<ashb>there was a patch flaoting around htat either tweaked it or made it a setting
21:41<ashb>(this was about 9-15months ago when i last looked at tht)
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably not it ;)
21:42<ashb>dont care so long as i can slow down tree growth
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's basically "don't let trees spread to tiles that don't have a tree yet"
21:43<sparr>why do we care about tree growth?
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>and that makes it slightly biased towards "trees will eventually die out"
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: because trees are the biggest town rating killers
21:44<ashb>Kovensky: can't resurrect the rating if the town is already fully surrounded by full tree tiles
21:45<ashb>which often happens in my games
21:45<Kovensky>wasn't there that cheat where you delete some 200 or so tiles
21:45<Kovensky>and then replant them all
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>ashb: yes. just destroy the other trees before. rating can't drop below 0
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21:47<sparr>i play with trees transparent... in a coop game in year 2300 the map is completely covered
21:47<sparr>impossible to play with them on
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>i love trees
21:47<Kovensky>I make trees invisible
21:47<ajmiles>yeah, i have invisible trees, don't even think about destroying them
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>and you should make them invisible instead of transparent
21:47<sparr>i meant invisible, sorry
21:47<sparr>to me, translucent/transparent, not transparent/invisible
21:48<ashb>yeah i'd quite like to be able to play with trees on but not have them cover the entire map
21:48<ashb>cos it adds a lot of visual candy if they are in some places
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22:04<sparr>i'm used to nethack, where every wiki page has links to the source as citations :)
22:04<sparr>around here it's all speculation and experimentation
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23:04<Annil>CAN someone please tell me why this happens, i downloaded open TTD downloaded AIS, but my AIs keep building airports, bus stops etc(but no vehicles), and hence go bankrupt
23:04<Annil>what am i doing wrong, i have downloaded all the online content available ?
23:05<PeterT>What AIs?
23:06<Annil>all the Ais available for download
23:06<Annil>one sec
23:06<Annil>admiral ai
23:06<Annil>choo choo
23:08<Annil>I just can't get the computer players do build any vehicles, they build plenty of airports and busstops but no vehicles
23:08<ajmiles>it's all part of their master plan
23:08<Annil>thats not helping, they go bankrupt
23:08<Annil>and i have to buy them over
23:10<PeterT>Can you open the AI debug window?
23:11<PeterT>read the errors, perhaps?
23:12<PeterT>if there are any, of course
23:12<Annil>ok will try that
23:17-!-Annil [] has quit []
23:18<PeterT>I was sort of hoping he would report something back
23:18<ajmiles>that would have been too helpful
23:19<PeterT>My bad
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23:33<De_Ghosty>ai are such hottible players
23:34<ajmiles>are there any AI that can beat human players?
23:37<ajmiles>why has one not been written? simply too difficult?
23:39<PeterT>What would qualify as "beat the human", exactly?
23:39<ajmiles>in a given time accrue more money than a human can
23:40<ajmiles>humans being limited by their slow building :)
23:41<PeterT>Trains AI, or whatever was quite good
23:41<PeterT>had presignals and everything
23:41<ajmiles>when AI build things incrementally is that by design, or does the AI framework only allow the AI to make a certain number of actions per tick?
23:41<PeterT>and it built an entire long coal line in one game month
23:42<ajmiles>because presumably an AI could build an entire network in a single tick (money notwithstanding)
---Logclosed Mon Dec 28 00:00:04 2009