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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-01-26

---Logopened Tue Jan 26 00:00:04 2010
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07:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18918 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/tosInner.html: [Website] -Update: the TOS of the content system to mention music sets
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08:19<Goulp>@seen yorick
08:19<@DorpsGek>Goulp: I have not seen yorick.
08:19<Goulp>tant pis
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09:05<CIA-2>OpenTTD: glx * r18919 /trunk/src/ (string.cpp string_func.h): -Fix (r15371): strcasestr() return should not be const
09:05<__ln__>why not?
09:06<__ln__>ah, return, yes.
09:13<@peter1138>@seen tdev
09:13<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen tdev.
09:16<@Belugas>short memory bot..
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09:16<+glx>more restarted bot ;)
09:17<@peter1138>again? hrr
09:17<@peter1138>ah well, i gave up RoR devving
09:17<TrueBrain>it stores those things on disk ...
09:18<+glx>no but I don't tdev came since
09:18<@peter1138>probably not
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10:14<@peter1138>glx, i feel like a ottd user trying to submit patches to ottd ;)
10:15<+glx>the fix is mine :)
10:15<@peter1138>my little fix patches get ignored because they need review... meanwhile huge untested sweeping changes get commit
10:16<@peter1138>nah, for RoR i mean :)
10:16<+glx>RoR is weird sometimes :)
10:16<+glx>I get hang on start or no sound (but not always)
10:17<@peter1138>i never got it worked after the the migration to ogre 1.6 (huge untested sweeping change...)
10:17<@Rubidium>peter1138: we're not that bad w.r.t. fix patches I hope, okay with non-fix patches and arbitrary features
10:18<@peter1138>yeha true
10:19<@Rubidium> <- now, who finds those numbers unexpected?
10:20<Ammler>time frame?
10:20<@peter1138>a lot of people like heightmaps
10:20<@Rubidium>Ammler: ~375 days
10:21<Ammler>but download all isn't possible with gui anymore?
10:21<@Rubidium>Ammler: never was
10:21<@Rubidium>except when trying to join a server
10:24<Yexo>heightmaps and scenarios do better then I expected
10:24<Ammler>well, I have a feeling a lot just download everything...
10:25<TrueBrain>then all should have equal amount of downloads
10:25<TrueBrain>which is not true
10:26<Ammler>that would need a count/day stats
10:26<@Rubidium>except there is 1 base graphics set, 47 heightmaps and 91 newgrfs
10:27<Yexo>a lot of people who downloaded opengfx 2.0 first probably downloaded opengfx 2.1 later
10:27<Yexo>so it's not strictly true that everyone only downloads 1 base graphics set
10:28<@Rubidium>and as the installer isn't accounted for, it's not even needed that they download it once
10:28<Ammler>that is why basesounds is that low
10:30<@Rubidium>and because you can't download it in 0.7
10:30<Ammler>anyway quite nice numbers, MP clients should rise :-)
10:30<SpComb^>Ammler: I've improved the pngtile stuff recently, btw
10:30<Singaporekid>spcomb is pngtile
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10:31<Ammler>SpComb^: do you have a kind of patch/script to make screen from save on dedicated server?
10:31<SpComb^>Ammler: nope
10:32-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
10:32<nicecupoftea>Hello Belugas
10:34<SpComb^>Ammler: I'll give it a shot, though, I think it's possible
10:34<Singaporekid>I can't load pvl_20080614_2040_giant.png for some reason
10:35<@Belugas>hello nicecupoftea
10:35<SpComb^>Singaporekid: there's some bug with the error handling, but I haven't updated the caches for those yet
10:36<@peter1138>hmm. nice cup of tea. that's an idea.
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10:36<Singaporekid>It's rather nice
10:36<nicecupoftea>I've just had a nice cup of tea
10:36<Ammler>!s/tea/coffee/ and I am with you :-)
10:36<Singaporekid>no nicecupoftea, you are the nice cup of teas
10:37<nicecupoftea>is that a valid set?
10:41<Ammler>!s/cold/hot/ ;-)
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10:43<nicecupoftea>I do apologise!
10:45<@Belugas>i'd rather go for coffee, as always, but tea can be good too :)
10:45<@Belugas>mostly in sumer. iced... with lemon
10:46<@Belugas>and mint
10:46<@Belugas>... and we are in winter :(
10:46<nicecupoftea>Shame about the Mac port issues/
10:46<nicecupoftea>I was looking forward to game of 1.0b3
10:46<nicecupoftea>But now I must compile it myself
10:46<nicecupoftea>What a chore!
10:46<jonty-comp>that's hardly the end of the world!
10:47<nicecupoftea>I can't think of anything more pressing, to be quite honest
10:49<SpComb^>Ammler: `make dirs`
10:49<SpComb^>Ammler: I know, it's a stupid build script...
10:50<SpComb^>Ammler: sudo aptitude install libpng-dev
10:51<Ammler>oh, indeed, that should be in the Readme :-$
10:51<SpComb^>the libpng bit actually is
10:51<SpComb^>the make dirs is missing
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11:15<SpComb^>Ammler: you have to compile openttd with a blitter, so for me that meant installing libsdl-dev
11:16<SpComb^>although that temporarily runs it as a dedicated server, one could probably patch in a --giant-screenshot option
11:17<SpComb^>Ammler: also, when you build the cache, I highly suggest you use --background 0xD7
11:19<Ammler>well, that means it isn't possible to make a screen on a dedicated server without the whole X
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11:20<SpComb^>Ammler: no, there's no video
11:20<SpComb^>installing libsdl does pull in a bunch of deps, but...
11:22<Ammler>well, we aren't root on the server our ps is running
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11:23<SpComb^>then generate the giant screenshots somewhere else? :)
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11:23<Ammler>yeah :-)
11:23<SpComb^>I presume it would be possible to compile the blitters without SDL
11:23<Ammler>might be better anyway :-P
11:24<@Rubidium>SpComb^: yeah, I presume that too :)
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11:25<SpComb^>Rubidium: I couldn't find any ./configure option for it, though
11:26<@Rubidium>SpComb^: that's because there's nothing disabling it at compile time
11:26<SpComb^>hmm, a dedicated build includes the blitters?
11:26<@peter1138>there is if you're building dedicated only
11:27<@peter1138>in source.list, just remove the if/else/endif block in the blitter section
11:27<@Rubidium>hmm, really?
11:27<SpComb^>ah, quite
11:27<@Rubidium>used to be not that case
11:27<@peter1138>yeah i changed it
11:27*SpComb^ wonders what magic is used to register the blitters
11:27<@peter1138>SpComb^, c++
11:27<TrueBrain>Factories! :)
11:28<@DorpsGek>peter1138: Commit by peter1138 :: r14913 trunk/source.list (2009-01-08 14:33:32 UTC)
11:28<@DorpsGek>peter1138: -Codechange: (Well, Buildchange:) Don't include unnecessary blitters or drivers when built as dedicated-only.
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11:28<SpComb^>Ammler: you can hack source.list then
11:29<Ammler>yes, now I need to translate your lighty config to apache config
11:29<@peter1138>hmm, how do i show AV settings and patch level on a debian system?
11:29<SpComb^>Ammler: you can run bin/dev-server for testing
11:29<blathijs>peter1138: AV settings?
11:29<SpComb^>Ammler: although it has some memcached stuff hardcoded in it, so either install memcached or remove those lines
11:30<@peter1138>patch level: show the latest installed patch/hotfix
11:30<@peter1138>yeah right, because all OSes are like windows
11:30<jonty-comp>if only
11:31<SpComb^>peter1138: is this your security certification thing again?
11:31<SpComb^>call them and tell them they're silly
11:31<blathijs>peter1138: Ah, anti-virus? :-)
11:31<SpComb^>peter1138: what certification?
11:31<@peter1138>yeah, sorry
11:31<blathijs>peter1138: You could give the latest DSA number?
11:31<@peter1138>cat /etc/debian_version
11:31<@peter1138>does that count? :s
11:32<@peter1138>blathijs, where would that be?
11:32<blathijs>patched for all DSA's up to DSA-<somenumber>
11:32<blathijs>peter1138: :-)
11:32<Ammler>SpComb^: what is module werkzeug? (
11:32<SpComb^>Ammler: python-werkzeug on debian
11:32<@peter1138>right, but i need to show that it *is* patched
11:33<blathijs>peter1138: Well, if you recentely upgraded, than you should be patched against all published DSA's AFAIK :-p
11:34<SpComb^>Ammler: if it complains about memcache stuff, then you can skip that by just removing the memcache/cache stuff from dev-server
11:34<blathijs>peter1138: But well, that's not really helpful, I guess
11:34<SpComb^>cache = None
11:34<Ammler>well, it seems there is no werkzeug for suse
11:35<@peter1138>nope. *i* know it's up to date (and i also know that doesn't mean it's secure, of course) but they want ... proof :s
11:35<SpComb^>Ammler: you can "install" it with a symlink
11:36<blathijs>peter1138: For what, exactly?
11:36<SpComb^>i.e. + unzip + build + ln -s .../Werkzeug-0.5.1/build/lib/werkzeug/ .../pngtile/lib
11:37<@peter1138>or rather, for the auditors of
11:37<bartavelle>peter1138: apt-get update, check that all your source work and you have security, then apt-get upgrade, and it tells you how many packages need to be updated
11:37<bartavelle>if it says 0, you have proof it is up to date
11:37<@Rubidium>peter1138: or wait a few days and say it's 5.0.4 :)
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11:39<@peter1138>bartavelle, that's probably the closest :(
11:39<bartavelle>PCI-DSS is BS anyway, just lie to them
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11:40<@peter1138>i know it's BS :)
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11:43<@Belugas>we all know it's freaking BS
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11:56<@peter1138>"last record screenshot"
11:56<@peter1138>"provide screenshot of last instance of full PAN"
11:56<nicecupoftea>Time for a cup of coffee
11:56<@peter1138>yeah, really
11:56<@peter1138>who would store full PANs from transaction data in a database?
11:57<@peter1138>actually probablys somebody does :s
11:58<@Belugas>personal account Number
11:58<@Belugas>short for credit card number
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12:03<@peter1138>all sorts of bullshit
12:03<@peter1138>ideally, for pci-dss, we'd not do anything with credit cards, hehe
12:03<@peter1138>especially not store any details
12:05<Ammler>SpComb^: dev_server doesn't find the libs in pngtile/lib
12:06<SpComb^>Ammler: right, you need to run it with the environment magic
12:06<SpComb^>LD_LIBRARY_PATH="lib" PYTHONPATH="lib:." ./bin/dev-server
12:06<SpComb^>and you also need to compile the extension.. :/
12:06<SpComb^>for which you need cython and the python dev headers
12:06<@Belugas>but wehn we do have to deal with stored card numbers (sometimes required by banks), we should have better protection then banks themselves :S
12:07<@Belugas>go fucking figure...
12:07<SpComb^>Ammler: I could write a web frontend in C instead :)
12:09<Ammler>hmm, yes, still doesn't work, so I guess, easyier to make it running with apache?
12:09<SpComb^>fonsinchen: tsk, your cargodist/master compiles with warnings
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12:09<SpComb^>Ammler: did you compile the extension?
12:09<Ammler>no, it complains about that
12:09<SpComb^>Ammler: it won't work without... the Python frontend needs to use the C backend library
12:10<Ammler>ah, I would need that for fcgi too?
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12:10<SpComb^>of course
12:10<SpComb^>I can send you the cython'd .c file if you don't have Cython, but you'll still need the python dev headers to run ` build_ext -i`
12:10<SpComb^>(well, `python build_ext -i`)
12:11<SpComb^>fonsinchen: src/table/station_land.h, specifically
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12:13<Ammler>cython is available from suse repos
12:14<SpComb^>cython's still adding major features recently, so it's a little unknown if a given version will work with a given .pyx :/
12:14<SpComb^>but it's worth a try
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>[16:46] <Belugas> ... and we are in winter :( <-- a friend of mine came back from canada and he complained that here the temperature is 20°C lower than there...
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>he was in vancouver, though...
12:15<Ammler>SpComb^: seems not.
12:15<Ammler>version 0.10.3
12:16<SpComb^>Ammler: huh, stupid - but you might be able to work around that by just adding a 'ctypedef int size_t' to the start of the python/pypngtile.pyx
12:16<SpComb^>I'm running 0.11.2
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12:18<SpComb^>Ammler: or download and stick it into python/, then it should skip the cython step
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12:19<SpComb^>any dist releases that I make will include that anyways...
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12:19<nicecupoftea>XML based NewGRF NFO? :/
12:20<jonty-comp>I always wanted to use XML in GRFs
12:20<nicecupoftea>wrong window
12:20<nicecupoftea>ignore that
12:20<nicecupoftea>it won't be ready for months, anyway
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12:22<SpComb^>har har
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12:23<Ammler>do I need that pyhton path to the env too?
12:26<@Rubidium>Belugas: that's because (big) banks can never fail
12:26<Ammler>(at least, if I am able to run it, everyone can ;-)
12:27<SpComb^>Ammler: you need the in PYTHONPATH
12:28*Belugas laughs hard at Rubidium's assessmemt :D
12:28<@Rubidium>Belugas: and the worst thing is, if they make a big loss they can lend money for free and give themselves huge bonuses
12:29<@Rubidium>so for the bank any situation is win-win
12:29<Ammler>SpComb^: how do I build that lib?
12:29*Belugas wants to fund a bank
12:30<rait>is there some way to turn on extended debugging messages to file?
12:30<@Rubidium>rait: >
12:30<@Belugas>[12:20] <jonty-comp> I always wanted to use XML in GRFs <--- that's insanity, profanity, wasting-timy, uselessy
12:30<@Rubidium>specifically: openttd -d9 > file
12:30<rait>yes, but can't you force more info out of it?
12:31<rait>-d9 does the magic?
12:31<@Rubidium>but if it's hanging in the shutdown of the sound driver then there's not much information (if any at all) about that event
12:31<jonty-comp>Belugas: oh well, I will always be terrible at NFO anyway
12:32<SpComb^>Ammler: `python build_ext -i` will compile the stuff in python/
12:32<SpComb^>Ammler: and if you dump the pypngtile.c in there, it shouldn't invoke cython
12:32<SpComb^>I should integrate that into the Makefile, but that hasn't happaned yet
12:33<Ammler>well, I still have gcc errors
12:33<TrueBrain>kill them
12:33<SpComb^>errors from the pypngtile.c?
12:34<SpComb^>make sure you have the Python.h
12:35<Ammler>right, checking python-devel, I assume
12:35<jonty-comp>this sounds confusing, you should've just written it in php!
12:35*jonty-comp runs away
12:37<@Belugas>cool... generating a grf using a web page...
12:38<Ammler>ok, seems working now the "cache issue" :-)
12:38*Belugas runs even further away
12:39<SpComb^>Ammler: make sure you use --background 0xD7
12:39<+glx><@Rubidium> specifically: openttd -d9 > file <-- on windows a conversion to console mode may be needed
12:39<SpComb^>jonty-comp: it wouldn't be possible to write this in pure PHP
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12:39<rait>Rubidium, no output makes it to file, all end's up in terminal
12:40<planetmaker>read glx' comment, rait ^
12:40<+glx>yes -d opens a terminal window because it's a GUI app
12:41<+glx> should work for win64 too
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12:41<nicecupoftea>I'm partial to XML
12:41<Ammler>for the server?
12:41<nicecupoftea>There's a wealth of parsers already available, and it's human readable.
12:42<Ammler>it woks now on my local desktop
12:43<TrueBrain>Belugas: stop directing people to me with questions you know end up in endless debates :p :p :p
12:43<SpComb^>Ammler: ok, great... the build process just needs a little improvement :)
12:44<rait>since there is no point in doing this, i'm abandoning my idea to save a pointless log
12:45<Ammler>SpComb^: the --background should be used fro building the png cache, I assume?
12:45<planetmaker>Ammler, server-side screenshots or what are you two guys working on?
12:47<Ammler>he, a 50MB giant screen is using 500 MB cache :-)
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12:48<@peter1138>you may have heard of compression
12:48<Ammler>so our archive with 150 games, hmm
12:48<Eddi|zuHause><nicecupoftea> [...] XML [is] human readable. <-- that's a big lie...
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>and especially, it's not any more human readable than well-commented NFO is...
12:50<@Belugas>sorry TrueBrain
12:50<@peter1138>well-commented NFO... hehehe
12:50<planetmaker>^ If I had to re-invent the grf wheel XML wouldn't be my choice ;-)
12:50*TrueBrain hugs Belugas :)
12:51<@Belugas>purrrrrrrrrrr purrrrrrrrrrrr
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>XML is so general-purpose, it's no use for any _specific_ purpose...
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12:51<@peter1138>nfo probably wouldn't be my choice either ;)
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12:52<planetmaker>hehe :-) Neither mine. Alas
12:52<TrueBrain>Xaroth: stop doing that :p
12:52<Xaroth>stop doing what?
12:52*Xaroth hides
12:53<TrueBrain>@kick Xaroth hide harder
12:53-!-Xaroth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [hide harder]
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12:53-!-Xaroth is "Xaroth" on #openttd @+#openDune #openttdcoop
12:54<planetmaker>Xar:oth maybe ? ;-)
12:54<nicecupoftea>Eddi: spot the readability difference :)
12:54<nicecupoftea>neither are commented
12:55<Xaroth>planetmaker: eh?
12:55<TrueBrain>I like it planetmaker :)
12:55<planetmaker>a way to hide your :o :-P
12:55<Xaroth>erroneous nick
12:56<Xaroth>can't use : in nicks :/
12:57<planetmaker>nicecupoftea, and now compare the information density, given you know that the real sprites are just followed by x and y coordinates / offsets
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13:00<nicecupoftea>I'd trade that 15% file increase for the massive savings in "I don't get NFO lol" threads any day
13:01<planetmaker>nicecupoftea, the NFO equivalent of the right side would be: -1 * XX 01 <n> 01 "Sherlock Holmes: Complete Novels A" 02 "Sir Arthur Canon Doyle" 00
13:01<nicecupoftea>I was trying to make the point within this hour :)
13:01<frosch123>did i miss some funny forum topic?
13:01<planetmaker>with XX and <n> being numbers. <n> = 2 actually and XX the byte length of the whole thing
13:01<planetmaker>nicecupoftea, yes, but for me the rhs is not readable.
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>nicecupoftea: so, what's your attempt of making an Action 6 "readable" while still keeping to understand what's actually going on?
13:02<nicecupoftea>What's the ISBN of The Great Gatsby?
13:02<@Rubidium>nicecupoftea: something ending with a X?
13:03<planetmaker>hehe @ Eddi
13:03<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: don't copy the silly action 6 case, hardly 0.1% of grfs use action 6
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's the typical DaleStan-question ;)
13:03<Prof_Frink>Now that's a brilliant idea.
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13:03<TinoDidriksen>Storage format doesn't matter whatsoever as long as you have tools to work with it.
13:03<@Rubidium>nicecupoftea: so far I've found at least 4 ISBNs, so I reckon you would be able to fin it yourself relatively easily too
13:04<nicecupoftea>Oh don't be so obtuse!
13:04<nicecupoftea>I'm doing the trolling here
13:04<planetmaker>amazon helps
13:04<@Rubidium>oh, in that case...
13:05*Eddi|zuHause spots a place on The List :p
13:05<planetmaker>eod it seems ;-)
13:06<+glx>anyway action 2 will be fun ;)
13:07<planetmaker>action2 is already fun. Why should it be less fun anywhere else :-P
13:10<SpComb^>Ammler: yes - if you use `ls -slh`, you'll see that the 500MB .cache actually occupies less disk space :)
13:10<SpComb^>Ammler: but yes, the .cache files will be big..
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13:15*fjb wouldn't want to type XML by hand.
13:15<SpComb^>fjb: use Eclipse instead
13:17<fjb>What a win over simply typing nfo in any texteditor. And who makes the Eclipse module for the special nfo version of xml? Not to mention the DTD.
13:17<Ammler>SpComb^: you need cython also if you have the .c file
13:18<frosch123>did i mention, that ttdviewer is parameterised using and .xsd validated .xml :p
13:19<SpComb^>Ammler: hmm yes, it imports it..
13:19<SpComb^>you can remove all the two lines that have 'build_ext' and change the .pyx to a .c
13:20<SpComb^>I tried to skip the and do it right from the Makefile, but that ended up being a bit difficult
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13:21<fjb>XML is usable as a configuration file format and good for Document interchange. It is even useful as an instant messenger protocol, but I doubt its usability as a programming language syntax.
13:22<SpComb^>fjb: disagree on the configuration file format
13:22<+glx>ini is good enough for configuration
13:22<SpComb^>ini isn't always enough either
13:22<SpComb^>now lua, that's a good configuration file format :)
13:22*nicecupoftea backs Lua
13:23<fjb>SpComb^: Depends on what you need. ini is often good enough but not always.
13:24<nicecupoftea>Lua's a lovely lightweight scripting language in its own right
13:24<fjb>XML ist good for machine to machine communication, not for human to machine.
13:24<nicecupoftea>XML occupies the middle ground
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13:27*frosch123 ponders mentioning the semantical similiarities between xml and action2 chains
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13:28*fjb would prefer a macro assembler.
13:29<frosch123>just that action2 are not imperative, nor touring complete :p
13:29<nicecupoftea>/me appends XML NewGRFs to the 'Multithreaded 3D engine' roadmap entry
13:29<fjb>Bad action2.
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r18920 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt dutch.txt unfinished/vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 4 changes by Maccie123
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 638 changes by myquartz
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13:46<frosch123>quick, we need a new language, the number of untranslated strings is about to drop below 20000 :o
13:48<@Rubidium>Maltese anyone?
13:51<frosch123>esperanto, ido and friends are already contained in the 20406
13:52<@peter1138>or a new patch
13:55<Ammler>frosch123: support iso3 languages and I could translate to mine...
13:55<frosch123>Assamese has a nice is639 code
13:58<fjb>Ammler: Rätoromanisch?
13:58<frosch123>Ammler: was there any decision about de_CH ? i mean we also have en_GB, en_US, pt_BR, pt_PT, ...
13:59<Ammler>frosch123: de_CH would be possible
13:59<TrueBrain>frosch123: I believe (in general) it is best to wait for WT3.1 (if ever) before doing more of those languages. Then you can make a sublanguage of a main language ;)
13:59<TrueBrain>(no idea if that is for the best, but okay :p)
13:59<frosch123>though i have no idea about ##winlangid :)
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14:00<frosch123>TrueBrain: the initial idea was to keep the number of untranslated strings above 20000 :p
14:00<TrueBrain>then that won't help :p
14:00<TrueBrain>I can fake the number for you?
14:00<TrueBrain>I wonder if I can find enough hours free to review the whole of Dutch before 1.0.0 final ...
14:01<Ammler>de_CH isn't really interesting, but gsw would be :-)
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14:08<Zuu>"1970s" is that 1970-1979 in English? (IIRC it is when you speak about 100 years of time the English got the years 'wrong')
14:09<SpComb^>Ammler: I had a go at fixing up the and `make dist` - the dist version should be easier to build, they include the pypngtile.c, and `make lib/` should work with a little luck now
14:12<Ammler>SpComb^: my notes I made about:
14:13<SpComb^> <-- so these
14:14<SpComb^>I added lib/ to all, so it should build by default without running
14:15<SpComb^>so the dist versions don't need: a) make dirs b) - but the Makefile stuff for building the python extension is a bit of a hack
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14:15<SpComb^>but ah, build scripts aren't so important as long as they work :P
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14:20<nicecupoftea>Zuu: 1970s or '70s = 1970 to 1979, correct. We do not get any years wrong whatsoever.
14:22<frosch123>... at least 9 years of the eighth decase of the twentieth century
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14:27<nicecupoftea>Zuu are you still developing PAXlink?
14:27<Zuu>Not a lot, but there is some improvements in SVN.
14:28<nicecupoftea>That's a shame.
14:28<Zuu>It is just that there is enormous amount of things that could be done.
14:28<nicecupoftea>I think it would make a good addition to Pathzilla
14:28<nicecupoftea>Using buses locally then connecting to the higher level network using airports
14:29<Zuu>I've implemented a herustics that re-arange town-to-town connections to maximize profit. However the re-arangeer isn't really as good as it could be at the moment.
14:29<planetmaker>go make that connection, then, nicecupoftea ;-)
14:29<planetmaker>they're GPL licensed afaik.
14:30<Zuu>IIRC all AIs on BaNaNaS use GPL v2.
14:30<nicecupoftea>I'm sure they are! I've got a couple of things on the wishlist, but work comes first :/
14:30<planetmaker>I still miss an AI developed by more than one person. That'd have better potential concerning maintenance.
14:30<planetmaker>and more attention to the nasty details and advanced concepts.
14:30<Zuu>One thing in the SVN-version that works fairly good is that it doesn't put that many bus stops anymore so it maintains a good rating in the town.
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14:31<nicecupoftea>I think the AI developments are the most interesting part of OpenTTD
14:31<Zuu>planetmaker: Indeed, that I think would work better for the future.
14:31<nicecupoftea>I'd love to see a competition like the Infinite Mario AI contest
14:31<nicecupoftea>but for OpenTTD, of course
14:31<planetmaker>they have been done.
14:32<planetmaker>You could also do them yourself locally. Not much effort, just make an AI only game or give yourself an observer company
14:32<planetmaker>there certainly are threads in the NoAI subforum
14:32<planetmaker>they were mostly done when NoAI was still in development, though
14:33<Zuu>Yep, and Rubi made some evil competition maps :-)
14:33<planetmaker>so... there's no quite recent one - but I haven't heart of any ground-breaking changes from most AIs either :-)
14:33<Zuu>One where big parts of the map were at sealevel with water that aten up all the sea-level land. :-)
14:33<planetmaker>But I guess... as usual: many small improvements.
14:34<planetmaker>also, the relative improvements have to become smaller... quite naturally ;-)
14:34<nicecupoftea>Perhaps a genetic AI-creating algorithm is required!
14:35<nicecupoftea>Set it running and come back the following month
14:35<planetmaker>go for it.
14:35<nicecupoftea>I'd rather not.
14:35<nicecupoftea>It would be much easier if someone else did it for me. Preferably for free.
14:36<planetmaker>oh right. Rubi might have a point
14:36<nicecupoftea>Zuu: Does PAXLink orientate the airport bus stations towards the town?
14:37<nicecupoftea>Or are they always on the southern edge?
14:37<Zuu>nicecupoftea: nope, they are always placed at the same edge.
14:37<Zuu>Makes things simplier in the already long code.
14:39<Zuu>Counts them to 5130 lines atm. So it is not very big compared to other things but still not just a small script.
14:40<nicecupoftea>Perhaps a community AI is required.
14:40<planetmaker>like the community patch pack(s)
14:41<Zuu>(not like community patch packs)
14:41<Zuu>But perhaps like a few people with enough time get togeather and write it. :-)
14:42<Zuu>I would probably qualify for the task but I've planed to work 45 hours a week on my thesis :-)
14:43<Zuu>And I got some nice ideas for Junctioneer too and yesterday a frind showed me the euler project with lots of interesting problems to solve. :-)
14:43<Alberth>you can not (re)define the subject of your thesis? :p
14:44<Zuu>Well it is about traffic engineering so it is not very far, but still not quite the same stuff.
14:50<Zuu>My thesis is related to the analytical models for calculating the capacity of roundabouts using gap-theroy. At best you could apply some gap theory in OpenTTD for railway intersections.
14:51<nicecupoftea>"Solving NP-complete network problems using Open Transport Tycoon" would be better
14:52<nicecupoftea>attempting to solve*
14:53<Zuu>OpenTTD* (TTD doesn't stand for 'Transport Tycoon Deluxe' in the OpenTTD name)
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14:59<nicecupoftea>forgive me
14:59<Zuu>no problem
14:59<TrueBrain>I forgive you
14:59<SpComb^>the trademark lawyers won't
14:59<nicecupoftea>Is it a Master's thesis?
14:59<Zuu>nicecupoftea: Yep
15:00<nicecupoftea>How's it coming along?
15:00<Zuu>Just started one week ago :-)
15:00<nicecupoftea>Due in June?
15:00<Zuu>So I'm at the boring litterature review :-)
15:00<Zuu>Due in June yep.
15:01<nicecupoftea>What is your alma mater?
15:02<Zuu>alma? My program name is "Communications and transport systems" and my focus area is called "Traffic Informatics".
15:02<nicecupoftea>Your college, I mean.
15:02<Zuu>Ah, I'm at Linköping University in Sweden.
15:03<Tera>ping? ping
15:03<Tera>pong* :<
15:03<Zuu>pong klong
15:04<nicecupoftea>it has a good reputation for control engineering, you must be a good student!
15:05<Zuu>At least the automatic control courses at our program are known to be hard to pass.
15:06<Zuu>But if the university make me a good student I don't know :-)
15:07<SpComb^>silly swedish names
15:07<nicecupoftea>Are you going to apply for a Doctoral position?
15:08<Zuu>Nope, I'm hoping to start working at a company where they do traffic analyses etc.
15:08<SpComb^>huh, dreamspark's product key doesn't give me multiple activations
15:09*planetmaker must look up Linköping. I *think* I've been there already.
15:09<Zuu>Might return to university later but for now I want to get out and work a bit.
15:09<planetmaker>Do they have an agricultural branch?
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15:10<Zuu>Hmm, not that I am aware of.
15:10<planetmaker>then I mix up towns maybe :-)
15:11<Zuu>They are mostly in technology stuff. The technical part has 15 000 students and the entire university is 25 000 students.
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15:11<Zuu>The others are medical stuff, economy, arts and probably some thing else important that I have forgotten.
15:15<Ammler>SpComb^: did you test the script you made?
15:15<Ammler>(to creating a giant screen)
15:15<SpComb^>Ammler: I think so... might have changed it afterwards
15:15<Ammler>it closed openttd without making the screen
15:15<Zuu>planetmaker: Lund might have an agricultural branch.
15:16<Ammler>he, the server is still working on my first screen :-)
15:16<SpComb^>Ammler: the screenshot goes somewhere random
15:16<SpComb^>I found it in my ~/.openttd/
15:16<planetmaker>nah, it wasn't Lund :-)
15:18<Alberth>SpComb^: random as in the same directory of openttd.cfg?
15:19<TrueBrain>but which openttd.cfg is it using? :p
15:19<SpComb^>Alberth: dunno, I ran ./foo/bin/openttd... there's a ./foo/bin/openttd.cfg, but it went into ~/.openttd/
15:22<Zuu>SpComb^: In that case shouldn't you cd into the bin-dir and then execute ./openttd?
15:22<Alberth>it doesn't seem to use foo/bin/openttd.cfg then
15:23<Alberth>eg load is also relative to openttd.cfg, and at my system it makes a difference to do ./foo/bin/openttd vs cd foo/bin ; ./openttd
15:23<planetmaker>well.. skara sounds different than Linköping :-p
15:23<Zuu>All programs will by default have the same current directory as you are standing in when you execute them.
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15:24*SpComb^ is on the phone with Microsoft automated product activiation service
15:24<Zuu>planetmaker: Was it in Skara that the aricultural branch is located?
15:24<Alberth>hangup now!
15:24<SpComb^>too late
15:24-!-Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
15:24<SpComb^>sending me the SMS now
15:24<SpComb^>fun disclaimer about how they don't store your number or personal details
15:24<planetmaker>Zuu, I *think* so.
15:25<planetmaker>but I wouldn't give my life for it ;-)
15:25<Zuu>IIRC they have one of the major churches there but it isn't as far as I'm aware a university town but for sure it could have a branch there.
15:25<SpComb^>so yay, now my Windows Server 2008 R2 is activated
15:26<SpComb^>because I called a random number and typed in some random numbers and then got an SMS with some random numbers back and typed those in
15:26<SpComb^>but I guess that deterrs piracy
15:26<dragonhorseboy>spcomb just a OT question but I take it you took the server offline or did the poor computer hiccup?
15:26<SpComb^>dragonhorseboy: took it offline for the giant-screenshot script that I wrote for Ammler :)
15:27<planetmaker>Zuu, I don't quite recall; it was my sister who studied there for a few months. And I was only once there... 6 years ago.
15:27<dragonhorseboy>oh ok..I was going to take a look and see if the game ever progressed anywhere at all or not since yesterday :P
15:27<dragonhorseboy>ah ok
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15:28<dragonhorseboy>well anyway .. on-topic (why did that seem funny that 'on' and 'off' are the same first letter?) question but anyone here know about nfo coding a locomotive?
15:28<dragonhorseboy>there's one thing I've been trying to figure out for a while
15:28<nicecupoftea>Man, NFO is so old, get with the times and use XML NewGRF
15:28<dragonhorseboy>nicecupoftea... does xml work with the patch? ;)
15:29<nicecupoftea>alas, it does not work at all :(
15:29-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:29<dragonhorseboy>sorry heh
15:29<Zuu>nicecupoftea: Don't start an NFO / XML war unless it is a war that you want :-p
15:29<nicecupoftea>We have already had one!
15:30<nicecupoftea>I cannot take another
15:30<SpComb^>gah, VS2008 install fails on WS2008R2
15:30<planetmaker>bitching around is quite annoying, though, nicecupoftea
15:30<dragonhorseboy>zuu I'll just pick nfo from the start for compactibility sake and ignore anything that has to do with other one ;)
15:30<dragonhorseboy>but heh :P
15:30<andythenorth>can xml succinctly encode logic?
15:31<andythenorth>nfo is great
15:31<nicecupoftea>oh god, here we go
15:31<andythenorth>xml is a pain in the ass
15:31<nicecupoftea>I'm supporting Lua, anyway
15:31<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth I've heard that quite often from many people .. and I got to agree with you
15:31<dragonhorseboy>anyway about my actual question...
15:31<planetmaker>nicecupoftea, before you discuss an issue you might want to learn about it before...
15:32<nicecupoftea>lighten up, planetmaker
15:32*andythenorth shuts up
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15:33<TrueBrain>we should put punishements on discusing such things
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15:34<nicecupoftea>Python-esque punishments?
15:34<dragonhorseboy>I've tried look at the action0 wiki on ttdpatch .. I set property 19 to 00 and property 22 to 40 = that'll get me a powered wagon with no exhaust but no way to cancel the steam sound?
15:35<SpComb^>argh, don't tell me that Visual Studio 2008 can't be installed on Windows Server 2008 R2
15:36<dragonhorseboy>:/ spcomb
15:38<SpComb^>You must use the Role Management Tool to install or configure Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5
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15:39<Ammler> <-- is that slow because of the dev-server?
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15:40<SpComb^>a little
15:40<dragonhorseboy>ammler takes a while to make initial connection but then downloads quickly otherwise
15:40<SpComb^>the main bottleneck is actually memory
15:41<SpComb^>providing that it compiled with -O2
15:41<SpComb^>Ammler: the dev-server isn't particularly slow, but it's only a single process/thread
15:42<SpComb^>I can do ~1000 of those 256x256 tiles per second on my 3.16Ghz desktop C2D
15:42<SpComb^> is an eight-core 2.0Ghz xeon with 1GB ram
15:42<TrueBrain>impressive :)
15:42<SpComb^>having enough memory to fit the entire .cache helps a lot
15:44<SpComb^>well, sleight exxageration, 1.820s for 1000 random tiles with a warm cache
15:45-!-Phalax [~kvirc@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:46<SpComb^>(written to /dev/null, measured using `time ./bin/pngtile data/20100123/1936.png -o /dev/null -W 256 -H 256 --benchmark 1000 --randomize -q`)
15:47<planetmaker>anyway, it's a great tool, SpComb^ :-)
15:48<TrueBrain>it sure looks cool ;)
15:48<SpComb^>just don't be scared with the high VIRT/RES/SHR numbers
15:48<SpComb^>it's just a big mmap(), so the memory use is managed by the kernel
15:48<planetmaker>he... max zoomed-out it IS slow
15:48<TrueBrain>RSS is the only useful number anyway ...
15:48<TrueBrain>VSZ is fake .... :p
15:48<SpComb^>but that's why there's support for memcached
15:48<planetmaker>you don't get faster network connection than I have here right now. And it's loading and loading
15:49<@peter1138>You don't?
15:49<SpComb^>caching the tiles at zl=-4 only takes up a couple MB :)
15:49<planetmaker>next step would be a 10GBit network card, peter1138 ;-)
15:49<TrueBrain>SpComb^: how do you do it? (missed all conversation above related to it :p)
15:49-!-Muddy [] has joined #openttd
15:49<planetmaker>few workplace pcs have that :-P
15:49<planetmaker>including that connection to the backbone
15:50<SpComb^>TrueBrain: magical C code!
15:50<Alberth>Zuu: you still do maintenance of cluelessplus? v15 just placed its depot wrong
15:50<Muddy>I had some fun with my 2x24" full hd setup at work today:
15:50<@peter1138>planetmaker, 100GBit, come on!
15:50<TrueBrain>SpComb^: I meant: make screenshot once, and process it, or make lots of screenshots?
15:50<planetmaker>peter1138, for your desktop? come on ;-)
15:50-!-Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:51<SpComb^>TrueBrain: decode the screenshot into mmap() (500MB for a 512x512 map), and then ecode small PNG's from there
15:51<@peter1138>You did say "you don't get faster" ...
15:51<SpComb^>TrueBrain: so yes, it takes a giant screenshot as input
15:51<TrueBrain>decode into mmap, lol :)
15:51<planetmaker>exageration for the sake of clearity ;-)
15:51<Zuu>Alberth: Yep, I still try to fix bugs that people report. Maybe not the same day or week but whenever I do an update I usually try to fix all reported bugs for it.
15:51<TrueBrain>SpComb^: nice idea :)
15:51<SpComb^>well yes, it passes a pointer into mmap()'d memory to png_read_row
15:52<TrueBrain>SpComb^: then either you have no clue what mmap is or what it does :p But okay, I understand what you are trying to say :)
15:52<Alberth>Zuu: ok, I am not in a hurry
15:53<Zuu>Alberth: If you don't mind can you post it to the CluelessPlus thread? That way I'll have the least chance of forgetting it.
15:53<SpComb^>TrueBrain: well, it reads/writes the pixel data directly from/to an mmap()'d memory region
15:53<Alberth>sure, I was just wondering whether that was needed :)
15:53<TrueBrain>SpComb^: lets not go into that :) But still, nice job :)
15:54-!-Muddy is now known as Muddy-
15:54<SpComb^>so the processes have like 1332M VIRT, 205M RES and 199M SHR
15:54-!-Muddy [] has joined #openttd
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15:55<TrueBrain>depends where you mmap it to :)
15:55<SpComb^>Ammler: so make sure it's compiled with -O2, deploy a memcached, and run as many FastCGI/WSGI/whatever processes as you have CPU cores
15:56-!-Phalax [~kvirc@] has joined #openttd
15:57<TrueBrain>SpComb^: why don't you run a static application over it, which cuts the map in very small pngs, and store that on the disk? Disk access is relative fast for any (sane) httpd
15:57<TrueBrain>(using io-passhtrough, for example, moves files from one end of the kernel to the other, allowing direct access)
15:57<SpComb^>TrueBrain: you could do that as well, but you'd have a *lot* of those tiles
15:57-!-Muddy- [] has left #openttd [Leaving]
15:58<SpComb^>encoding the 256x256 and 512x512 PNGs (zl=0, zl=-1) from cache is fast enough to compare favourably with static files imo
15:58<SpComb^>and then the tiles for the higher zoom levels can be cached (memcached, http cache, whatever)
15:59<TrueBrain>well, if I take my latest work on mapgen, I stored static files for a few zoom-levels. Depending on the required zoom, it collected those files. Increased everything a lot
15:59<Ammler>the server is using 1GB now :-)
15:59<TrueBrain>(mostly because you no longer had to recalculate zooms :p)
15:59<@Belugas>oooopsss.... sorry..
15:59<@Belugas>wrong channel
16:00<SpComb^>Ammler: the memory use is managed by the kernel's page cache
16:00<SpComb^>so it should be smart enough to drop the .cache stuff from memory when it's needed for something else
16:00<SpComb^>but yes... page cache thrashing sucks
16:00-!-Muddy [] has quit [Quit: changing servers]
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16:02<TrueBrain>SpComb^: tried picking up the file and mmaping it to the shm part of your memory? Could give you a nice speed-boost
16:02<SpComb^>TrueBrain: what's shm got to do with anything?
16:02<TrueBrain>just for fun, try it
16:02<Alberth>Belugas: the discussed topics do not give many hints about the nature of the channel :)
16:02<TrueBrain>(instead of your memcache, for example)
16:03<SpComb^>it's mmap'd with MAP_SHARED, so it's shared across all the processes already
16:03<SpComb^>(and PROT_READ only for the viewer)
16:03<SpComb^>TrueBrain: the memcached is used for the 256x256 output PNGs only
16:04<SpComb^>mmap() is used for the raw pixel data
16:05<TrueBrain>k, just trying to help :) Spend a lot of time speeding up Mapgen, so I have my fair share of knowledge about map manipulation and its speed ;)
16:06<SpComb^>not sure what you mean with "mmap it to the shm part of your memory"
16:06<SpComb^>but the input .png file isn't used at all for generating the smaller output PNGs
16:08<TrueBrain>yeah, I like the idea; now live map view :p Mwhahaha
16:09<SpComb^>I did that earlier
16:09<SpComb^>but it really sucks because you can't cache anything
16:09-!-George [~George@] has joined #openttd
16:11<TrueBrain>bah, you made me open mapgen
16:12<SpComb^>what mapgen is this?
16:12<SpComb^>not very googleable
16:13<TrueBrain>one of my non-published projects :)
16:13-!-Polygon [] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!]
16:13<TrueBrain>be careful with which you open
16:13<TrueBrain>22MiB is too big for most browsers :p
16:13*SpComb^ 64-bit!
16:13<@Belugas>hi Alberth. It was something about an unexpected delay in the left channel of my part, while playing with peter1138. I realized it was a wrong positionning of the wave file
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16:14<TrueBrain>stfu Xaroth
16:14<TrueBrain>go play with your girlfriend
16:14<Xaroth>she's asleep now :)
16:15<Xaroth>I have better stamina then her ;)
16:15<SpComb^>hmm, no, it didn't really like image007
16:15<@Belugas>girls amd wifes tend to fall asleep quite fast indeed.
16:16<SpComb^>TrueBrain: so heightmaps?
16:16<TrueBrain>nope, FF gets dumped here too when I try
16:16<TrueBrain>SpComb^: yes
16:16<SpComb^>I only handle the big PNG image once, when I decode it to .cache - after that, everything comes from the .cache
16:17<TrueBrain>I so hope hope hope hope it did the autosave correctly, and it is loading it now ...
16:18<TrueBrain>'Resume' gave me an older game (ME2 is fucked up like that) .. lets hope 'Autosave' isn't damaged ....
16:18<TrueBrain>SpComb^: mapgen handles 11GB of initial source data :p
16:18<TrueBrain>YIPPIE!!! :)
16:19<SpComb^>thrash thrash thrash
16:20<TrueBrain>thrash what?
16:20<SpComb^>if it load it from disk
16:22<Alberth>Zuu: pathzilla seems to give its ore a nice tour around the factory first :p
16:23<Alberth>(it crashedm just added a bug report)
16:23-!-Polygon [] has joined #openttd
16:24<Zuu>I know PathZilla like to build loopbacks for its drive-trough stops.
16:25<Zuu>Ah, reading your post, it actually only uses that one station.
16:27<Alberth>it only has that one station.
16:28<Alberth>lorries do not get unloaded at all, so they all just circle around all the time
16:30<Zuu>At least from my memory I recall that Zutty make a farily static calculation method for calculating the amount of trucks needed and does not adopt the fleet based on the amout of cargo waiting or so.
16:30<Zuu>use a fairly..*
16:32*SpComb^ wonders how to show file extensions in WS2008R2
16:32<SpComb^>they removed the menus :P
16:33<dragonhorseboy>industry output + rv or rail wagon capacity + distance involved to the receiving industry = calculate required purchases
16:33-!-pod [] has joined #openttd
16:33<dragonhorseboy>thats the way I would had the ai figure it out but eh
16:33<pod>how do I reduce the size of the MP chat box?
16:33<dragonhorseboy> unpausing the game?
16:33<pod>oh :D
16:33<dragonhorseboy>pod..why did you think nothing was moving
16:34<pod>I knowit's caused
16:34<pod>but the box is massive
16:34-!-Rubix`` [] has joined #openttd
16:34<pod>I'm talking to my friend, etc
16:34<dragonhorseboy>thats what irc or msn are for next time :P
16:34<pod>the box takes up the left of the screen ;'(
16:34<pod>we're on those :D
16:35<Alberth>I always put my irc client underneath the openttd window with just a few lines visible
16:36<SpComb^>hmm, great, cmd.exe crashes when I run `make bundle_zip`
16:38-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
16:39<dragonhorseboy>hm guess I'll have to find a coder to hire then if this stupid loco can't work properly >_<
16:53<Ammler>SpComb^: does it local cache the images?
16:53<SpComb^>Ammler: local cache?
16:53<Ammler>the browser
16:54<SpComb^>ah. I'm not actually sure, it's one of the things I need to check on
16:54<SpComb^>so I'm afraid that it probably doesn't
16:55<SpComb^>the other issue is that the link-to-this-view images tend to be larger than 1MB, and thus don't fit into memcache
16:56<nicecupoftea>The coop map live image is fantastic, who wrote it?
16:57<Eoin>coop map live image
16:57<Eoin>where :O
16:57-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
16:57<dragonhorseboy>eoin .. in your brain :P
16:57<Ammler>nicecupoftea: you mean the screen or the app showing the screen?
16:57-!-JamesD [] has joined #openttd
16:58<nicecupoftea>well, whatever generates it
16:58<Ammler>the screens are from #openttdcoop
16:58<nicecupoftea>hello James
16:58<Ammler>the app from SpComb^
16:58<JamesD>I've got some Questions about OTT
16:58<planetmaker>and it's not live ;-)
16:58<nicecupoftea>How often does it update?
16:58<JamesD>Have there been any changes to the economics of the game to make it more challenging?
16:58<Ammler>that is currently only a test
16:58<Ammler>and the dev-server is very unstable
16:59<Ammler>SpComb^: the console looks funny ;-)
16:59<nicecupoftea>Is it a client generating the image or a custom server build>
16:59<SpComb^>nicecupoftea: the image is just a standard giant screenshot
16:59<nicecupoftea>broken up in to 256^2?
17:00<SpComb^>pretty much
17:00<@Belugas>nigth all
17:00<nicecupoftea>what's unstable about it?
17:00<@Rubidium>night mr white whale
17:00<SpComb^>Ammler: if it displays connection errors, then those are most likely just the client/browser closing a connection
17:00<planetmaker>nighty nigh, Belugas
17:00<Ammler>nicecupoftea: just the testing environment
17:02<Ammler>SpComb^: I run it in a screen window, might not be the most clever thing ;-)
17:02<JamesD>Sorry to break in - but have there been many changes to the economic model of the game to make it more challenging?
17:03<SpComb^>Ammler: as long as you don't manage to crash it :P
17:03<SpComb^>Ammler: what's the hardware configuration you're running it on?
17:04<@Rubidium>JamesD: not really, but with NewGRFs you can change quite a bit of the economy
17:04-!-Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
17:04<Ammler>a vserver with host quad core: Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.20GHz
17:05<Ammler>2 gig ram
17:06<Ammler>but as you know, it runs now with only one thread
17:06-!-CIA-2 [~CIA@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<Ammler>so if multiple users visit it, it is a bit too busy....
17:06<JamesD>Just a little bit of background - I used to playt this game as a kid and I've known about your project for a while and been looking to play it at some lan parties
17:07<JamesD>Although the game seems pretty easy at this point and I was hoping there had been some changes on that
17:07<planetmaker>Then make sure to use the basemod newgrf to change all prices to incredibly high ;-)
17:07<nicecupoftea>JamesD: there's a wealth of addons, called GRFs that modify the game
17:07<nicecupoftea>Some of them are just graphics, some of them completely change the gameplay
17:08<planetmaker>Also make it a competing game. then the absolute ease of getting money is not important
17:08<nicecupoftea>There's a hard server pack which increases prices, limits industries and changes vehicals
17:08<nicecupoftea>In fact, I think there's a couple of different server packs.
17:08<Ammler>or use version 0.4.8 ;-)
17:08<planetmaker>and in fact all of them require building binaries.
17:08<SpComb^>Ammler: yeah, running multiple processes should help a fair bit then, and 2GB RAM isn't bad
17:08<JamesD>I'm the art and marketing director for MMORPG for iPhone but I'm not the coder
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17:09<planetmaker>JamesD: something possibly interesting for a handful of people is the head2head branch, though
17:10<JamesD>So I can modify gameplay by changing values in GRFs
17:10<JamesD>ok - head2head branch
17:10<nicecupoftea>JamesD: It depends, some things are simply NewGRF downloads in game, other require compiling from source
17:10<SpComb^>if you did it with --background, then a 512x512 map takes up perhaps 128MB of mem
17:10<planetmaker> and ... where are the binaries?
17:10<Ammler>ah :-)
17:10<Ammler>I should run the server with that?
17:10<SpComb^>oh, no, you don't need to run the dev-server with that
17:11<SpComb^>it's just the cache update
17:11<Yexo>but those are old
17:11<planetmaker>ty, Yexo
17:11<Ammler>yes, I used that for all
17:11<planetmaker>But I trust in you that you order new ones, if games are planned :-)
17:11<SpComb^>Ammler: check with `ls -slh .../foo.*`
17:11<SpComb^>Ammler: you should see that the first column (the actual disk size) is about half of the real size
17:12<SpComb^> <-- seeing those edges is a sign that you did it right
17:13<SpComb^>Ammler: yeah, that looks roughly right, surprising amount of variation, though
17:13<JamesD>What is head2head? A custom balanced version?
17:14<SpComb^>Ammler: what sizes are those maps?
17:14<SpComb^>is MZ4 something non-square?
17:14<Ammler> <-- one of those errors in the log
17:14<SpComb^>yeah, that's just someone hitting esc in their browser
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17:15<Ammler>mz11 is 512², mz4 and ps173 is 1024² and the other one is hmm
17:16<SpComb^>Ammler: but as you can see... the .cache files are roughly half the nominal size on disk, and as far as I can tell the actual runtime memory use for the page table should follow the real disk size
17:16-!-Rubix`` [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:16<SpComb^>(er, page cache)
17:16-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has joined #openttd
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17:17<Yexo>JamesD: if you have some patience I'll update it
17:17<Ammler>I will install fastcgi and check then...
17:18<Ammler>since wiki and blog is gone from our server, we should have a bit free resources again ;-)
17:19<SpComb^>heh, giant screenshots will do a good job of eating them up
17:19-!-PeterT [] has joined #openttd
17:19<Ammler>(psg173 is the current running game on our ps)
17:19<rait>sorry for the errors, probablly chrome did it's thing
17:19<Ammler>already some clients, which can't join anymore :'-(
17:20<Ammler>and we planned to make new vehicle record ;-)
17:20<SpComb^>curious choice of mountanious terrain
17:20<SpComb^>nasty slopes
17:20<Ammler>yeah, old generator
17:21<dragonhorseboy>ammler was afk for a minute and I'm kinda lost..which game is this?
17:21<luckz>is there some page/wiki entry/the like dealing with recommended settings for the sake of gameplay/balance, not limited to stock options, thus also including cargo dist and maybe infra sharing?
17:21<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: this runs on the #openttdcoop publicserver right now
17:21<SpComb^>oh, that's OpenGFX, no wonder it looks so fuzzy
17:21<Yexo>luckz: no
17:22<Yexo>because everyone has their own preference
17:22<Ammler>SpComb^: I have no legal copy of TTD;-)
17:22*SpComb^ does
17:22<Ammler>only TT(O)
17:22<dragonhorseboy>ammler oh ok
17:22<SpComb^>bought a copy of the Tycoon Collection once, before I even stumbled on tt-forums
17:22<dragonhorseboy>never been bothered looking because they always seem to be using odd build versions every single time
17:23<dragonhorseboy>yexo heh true on that
17:23<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: that is our "newbie protection" ;-)
17:23-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
17:23<SpComb^>nightlies aren't odd
17:23<dragonhorseboy> you telling me there's a useless password for no reason then?
17:24<Ammler>ah, that one :-)
17:24<dragonhorseboy>spcomb..when you can't find it on the thread or download page there IS something odd :p
17:25<dragonhorseboy>I'm not downloading a billion .. which one? :P
17:25-!-Bimmel^afk [] has quit []
17:25<Ammler>as you need to the password, you can't join without irc anyway :-P
17:26<dragonhorseboy>yexo for me I actually play with the prices set a bit high up
17:27<Ammler>ah, for mz11, I forgot to enable trees and bridges
17:30<Yexo>Rubidium: could you start the cf for ? As far as I'm aware it has no CFID yet
17:34<TrueBrain>is has one
17:34<Yexo>then I don't know what it is
17:34<TrueBrain>that is true :)
17:35<TrueBrain>for your information :)
17:35<TrueBrain>started btw
17:35<Yexo>ok, thanks :)
17:35<TrueBrain>(although my name is not Rubidium, still :))
17:36<Yexo>last time I asked you something about the cf you told me to ask Rubidium :)
17:36<Yexo>but actually I don't really care who starts it, as long as it's started :)
17:36<TrueBrain>Yexo: I know :) I am just 'pesten' you
17:36<Yexo>hehe :p
17:37<TrueBrain>(no OSX of course)
17:37<Yexo>of course not
17:38<SpComb^>is the compile farm actually a farm?
17:38<Ammler>OSX users aren't real competitors anyway ;-)
17:38<TrueBrain>whiiee, I like the mirror system :)
17:39<TrueBrain>SpComb^: what is the definition for a farm?
17:39<Yexo>SpComb^: yes, of virtual machines
17:39<SpComb^>more than one host
17:39<TrueBrain>virtual hosts: yes
17:39<SpComb^>physical hosts?
17:39<TrueBrain>no need either :)
17:39<TrueBrain>nowedays physical hosts are overrated
17:40-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:40<TrueBrain>either way, it is a farm of compilers
17:40<rait>how much time is the builder really doing anything? or does it have any other tasks?
17:40<TrueBrain>so even if it was in one OS, it would have been a farm ;)
17:40<TrueBrain>rait: 30 minutes compiling, 9 minutes mirroring
17:41<rait>per day?
17:41<TrueBrain>that for sure every day ...
17:41<Ammler>shouldn't that be faster, since you dropped osx?
17:41<TrueBrain>+ things like head-to-head, which also takes 30 minutes compiling and 9 minutes mirroring
17:41<TrueBrain>it is ;)
17:41<Yexo>per build, so every day a nightly, then all releases and sometimes a custom build (like now)
17:41<rait>so like under 2h per day is it utilized?
17:41<TrueBrain>rait: then we also compile TTDp
17:41<TrueBrain>and other utils
17:42<Yexo>yes, ttdpatch
17:42<TrueBrain>2 hours a day is a max, yes, where we use 3 cores at 100%
17:42<TrueBrain>the rest of course goes to shit like php-cgi, and all other processes
17:42<rait>so building isn't all it does?
17:42<TrueBrain>average load is around 0.3, and there is about 10% CPU usage constant
17:42<TrueBrain>no; it does all services
17:42-!-PeterT [] has quit [Quit: Goodbye]
17:43<rait>so if this one machine goes down .... all goes?
17:43<+glx>with mirroring the load is reduced ;)
17:43<TrueBrain>glx: yes :)
17:43<TrueBrain>rait: yes
17:44<+glx>but there are backups
17:44-!-lewymati [] has joined #openttd
17:44<rait>that would suck. what exactly is mirrored?
17:44<TrueBrain>all data is safe, that is never an issue :)
17:44<+glx>binaries are mirrored
17:44<+glx>and bananas may be
17:44<TrueBrain>it is
17:45<+glx>not ingame ;)
17:45<TrueBrain>we talked about data :)
17:45<TrueBrain>as even access to requires the host ;)
17:45<rait>any plans in case it does go down?
17:46<TrueBrain>SVN is stored at 3 locations in the world, which can made active at any time
17:46<TrueBrain>in it there is the website, masterserver, contentserver, ...
17:46<TrueBrain>DNS control is also on several places in the world, controlled offsite
17:46<@Rubidium>yeah, no backup of the masterserver :)
17:46-!-Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:46<TrueBrain>yeah, that database is very value :p
17:47<TrueBrain>rait: so in case the server goes down for a long period (unlikely btw), we can recover all client-side services in a short period of time
17:47<TrueBrain>developers access is not easy to recover
17:47-!-CIA-2 [~CIA@] has joined #openttd
17:48*SpComb^ fires up his DL380 G3
17:48<TrueBrain>rait: the server has a RAID-mirror, so our data is 'relative' safe
17:49-!-dragonhorseboy [] has left #openttd []
17:49<rait>RAID is a nice thing as long as actual data won't get corrupted. do you also have backups?
17:50<@Rubidium>of the important things, yes
17:50<TrueBrain>SVN: yes
17:50<TrueBrain>and that is the only important thing to us
17:50<@Rubidium>and hg and git are not important to us :)
17:50<TrueBrain>and btw, corruption is mostly detected afterwards, when the backups are long infected too ;)
17:50<Yexo>nice thing of the git/hg copies is that everyone who checks out via git/hg has a backup
17:51-!-Chillosophy [] has quit []
17:51<TrueBrain>SpComb^: no; too big ;)
17:52<Yexo>how big would a backup of all text (not images) in the wiki actually be?
17:52<TrueBrain>without uploads, rather small
17:53<@Rubidium>actually, the wiki database is 160 MB
17:53<TrueBrain>162 MiB
17:54<TrueBrain>138MB of text ....
17:54-!-Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
17:54<TrueBrain>you guys change too much too often
17:55<SpComb^>a fair amount
17:55<rait>but when you apply the magic of compression, it would be totally backupable
17:55<TrueBrain>that is without uploads ;)
17:55<fonsinchen>SpComb^: The warnings aren't my fault
17:56<fonsinchen>And I suppose some dev has also seen them and thus didn't post a bug report.
17:56<TrueBrain>550 MiB, mostly images (no compression)
17:57-!-Neon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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17:57<TrueBrain>Flyspray makes up 1.5 GiB of data .... :o
17:58<SpComb^>too many crash.dmp's
17:58<TrueBrain>2 GiB of developers data
17:59*SpComb^ wget's a couple 165M screenshots for amusement
17:59<Yexo>TrueBrain: does that 2gb include the hg repos?
17:59<SpComb^>over my IPv6 tunnel, no less
17:59<TrueBrain>your /home dir
17:59<Yexo>ah, ok
18:00<TrueBrain>me, Belugas, Rubidium and then Bjarni
18:01-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:01<TrueBrain>I will review the backup of wiki and flyspray this week, se what can be done
18:01-!-devilsadvocate [~devilsadv@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:02<@Rubidium>yeah, I guess my homedir is big (due to the intro savegame thing)
18:02-!-JamesD [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
18:02*SpComb^ runs pngtile+memcached on a dedicated server for amusement
18:02<TrueBrain>mine is ... well .. because it is
18:02-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
18:02<TrueBrain>Belugas because he is Belugas (hihi, it is okay, really, it is :))
18:02<TrueBrain>Bjarni because of OSX shit
18:02<SpComb^>would it be a good idea to carry a 2U rack server with you on the bus+train?
18:03<SpComb^>funny it would certainly be
18:03<rait>it's a must-do-in-life
18:04<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r18921 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp station_map.h waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: make the preconditions for Get/Set CustomStationSpecIndex a bit more strict
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: i carried a refridgerator on the train...
18:06<TrueBrain>also one of those things you have to do: a desktop PC and a screen in the train. Just put them like you can work on it .. the faces of people ... unpayable
18:06<rait>actually catty an ups and it will be magic :D
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18:13<SpComb^>pfft, trains have power
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18:13<TrueBrain>AND LOTS OF THEM!
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18:17<TrueBrain>Yexo: h2h online
18:18<Yexo>thanks :)
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18:18<Yexo>TrueBrain: I see it on, but isn't updated
18:19<Yexo>or do I need to wait for it to be pushed to all mirrors for that?
18:19<TrueBrain>it is on all mirrors
18:19<TrueBrain>but the download page is cached for 5 minutes I believe
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18:20<TrueBrain>yeah, it caches the finger result for 5 minutes :)
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18:23<TrueBrain>there it is :)
18:24<TrueBrain>good night all
18:24<Yexo>gn TrueBrain
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18:25*SpComb^ needs to aquire a dozen DL380 G3's and a rack for them
18:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r18922 /trunk/src/station_map.h: -Doc: add doxygen documentation to all functions in station_map.h
18:28<rait>what is head-to-head?
18:28<Yexo> only screenshot I can find so fast
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18:29<Yexo>basically the game starts with the same map copied a few times, and every company can only build in their own copy of the map
18:29<Yexo>but you all play on the same server
18:34<SpComb^>funky, my randrange() fails on 32-bit
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18:41<SpComb^>uh oh
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18:41<Zuu>rait: Eg you can pan over to your competor and watch what he/she has built but dot do any damage over there.
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18:48<SpComb^>yay, 2GB of RAM now
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18:59<Ammler>SpComb^: still awake?
18:59<Ammler>I have a bit issue to handle those env vars for fcgi
18:59<SpComb^>which ones?
18:59<Ammler>couldn't I add those somehow to the fcgi directly?
19:00<SpComb^>apache doesn't let you config them?
19:00<Ammler>SpComb^: I have no idea
19:00<Ammler>the first time, I setup fcgi
19:00<SpComb^>you can always write a simple wrapper script that sets up the env and then exec's the pngtile.fcgi
19:00<Ammler>in general, it works, also flup installed
19:02<SpComb^>Ammler: ?
19:03<SpComb^>ubuntu has libapache2-mod-fastcgi and libapache2-mod-fcgid
19:04<SpComb^>mod_fcgid sounds better
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19:07<Ammler>module is working
19:07<Ammler>AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'application'
19:07<Ammler>File "/home/openttdcoop/domains/", line 33, in <module>
19:07<SpComb^>hg up
19:07<SpComb^>well, hg pull -u
19:08<SpComb^>(or wget the new dist tarball)
19:08<Ammler>then I need to rebuild?
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19:09<SpComb^> <-- the fix
19:09<SpComb^>the cache format hasn't changed
19:15<Ammler>I need to remove 2.5 from python2.5
19:16<Ammler>malformed header from script. Bad header=prefix /view: pngtile.fcgi
19:17<Ammler>ScriptAliasMatch ^/view(.*) /home/openttdcoop/domains/$1 <-- maybe I need to do that a bit other :-)
19:18<SpComb^>urgh, my bad
19:19<Ammler>your bad?
19:19<SpComb^>yeah, forgot to commit the fix for that
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19:21<Ammler>can I pull?
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19:22<Ammler>I might need to sleep "over it"
19:23<SmatZ>Not Found
19:23<Ammler>yes :-)
19:23<Ammler>but it is from the python
19:24<Ammler>so at least, it looks like my cgi works
19:24<SpComb^>that looks weird
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19:25<SpComb^> <-- the handler works
19:26<SpComb^>it's just the /static files that don't, you probably want an Alias or something for those
19:27<SpComb^> /pngtile/static/..., to be exact
19:29<SpComb^>the URL depends on the SCRIPT_NAME, so it's a little magical... depends on the server
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19:33<nicecupoftea>nn all
19:33<nicecupoftea>enjoy your pngs
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19:35<Ammler>but that doesn't work, if I use ScriptAliasMatch
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19:35<SpComb^>Ammler: can't have an Alias inside a ScriptAliasMatch?
19:37<Ammler>I set ^/pngtile(.*)
19:37<Ammler>so everything would be handled by that script
19:37<Ammler>pngtile/static for example
19:38<SpComb^>and you can't have the Alias match before the ScriptAliasMatch?
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19:40<SpComb^>Ammler: try having an Alias or AliasMatch *before* the ScriptAliasMatch
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19:45<Ammler>ok, seems working now:
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19:47<Ammler>memory issues
19:48<SpComb^>appears a little... spotty to me
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19:49<Ammler>I guess, I need to change it to static
19:49<Tijuanens> Forum welcomes anybody who hates niggers and isn't a nigger. Asian? No Problem! Jewish? We have Jewish mods! Mexican? Bienvenido amigo! No matter what race you are, join us if you hate niggers!
19:50<SpComb^>Ammler: change what to static?
19:50-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*Tijuanens@*] by Rubidium
19:50-!-Tijuanens was kicked from #openttd by Rubidium [Tijuanens]
19:51<Ammler>fcgi static with sockets
19:51<sawtooth>never even mentioned where the forum was. talk about spam fail :)
19:51<Sacro>if you're gonnaspam about a group that hates niggers then surely you should at least post a url
19:52<@Rubidium>Sacro: but then you'd be autokilled by the network
19:52<Sacro>would i/?
19:53<@Rubidium>yes, try spamming such a link to lots of channels, especially #oftc
19:55<Ammler>SpComb^: nvm
19:55<SpComb^>Ammler: sounded confusing :P
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19:55<Ammler>I was on the howto to setup python fcgi
19:55<+glx>and I have an autokb triggered by the url
19:56<Ammler>this guy pmd me with url
19:56<+glx>chimp... ?
19:56<Ammler>glx: yes
19:57<SpComb^>Ammler: does your apache config actually launch more than one FastCGI backend?
19:58<SpComb^>the conf you pastebinned earlier looks a little lacking in that regard
19:58<SpComb^>doesn't actually mention FastCGI anywhere :o
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20:08<Ammler>tried to add "FastCgiServer /home/openttdcoop/domains/ -processes 4 -socket /tmp/fcgi.sock"
20:09<Ammler>Invalid command 'FastCgiServer', perhaps misspelled or defined by a module not included in the server configuration
20:12<SpComb^>do you even have mod_fastcgi loaded?
20:12<SpComb^>I'm not completely familiar with flup, but it'd be amusing if it fell back to CGI if run like that :)
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20:29<Ammler> better now: ?
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20:36<Ammler>yes, if I disable cgi, it doesn't work anymore
20:36<Ammler>so fcgid seems not working...
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20:39<Ammler>Premature end of script headers: pngtile.fcgi
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 27 00:00:05 2010