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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-04

---Logopened Thu Feb 04 00:00:17 2010
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03:59<planetmaker>good morning
04:00<ccfreak2k>Do any of you know who maintains the PSP code?
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04:06<blathijs>ccfreak2k: Dunno, it's not listed in readme.txt
04:06<ccfreak2k>Also, I got ./configure to work with only adding GC as an "os".
04:07<TrueBrain>PSP is not official supported blathijs, so that is most likely why ;)
04:07<blathijs>TrueBrain: Hmm, there is a target defined for it in configure IIRC
04:08<ccfreak2k>There is.
04:08<TrueBrain>I did some ground work for it
04:08<blathijs>and/or I saw references to it in trunk
04:08<ccfreak2k>There's also at least a few #if defined PSP.
04:08<TrueBrain>but it never really got anywhere :)
04:08<TrueBrain>(as I don't own a PSP :p)
04:08<blathijs>Hmm, that's a lousy way to port an app :-P
04:08<TrueBrain>yup .. the person who was doing that, never gave any feedback ..
04:09<ccfreak2k>I'm the lucky owner of a fully-modded gamecube, so I can actually write and test.
04:09<dih>i assume ccfreak2k has a psp
04:09<ccfreak2k>I don't have a PSP.
04:09<dih>shame :-P
04:09<ccfreak2k>But I figured its code would be a good starting point.
04:09<TrueBrain>there is enough custom code to get you on the way for any port :)
04:10<ccfreak2k>Well, the GC would be an "embedded" target, as everything is statically-linked, etc.
04:10<roboboy>ccfreak2k: can a normal gamecube play homebrew or does it need a chip?
04:10<TrueBrain>ccfreak2k: static linking is done for Windows too :p
04:10<ccfreak2k>roboboy, it can play homebrew without one, but you need to coerce the gamecube into getting it to run first.
04:11<ccfreak2k>Which uh...I guess would require some kind of chip actually.
04:11<TrueBrain>but if there is libSDL for the GC, the rest should be easy :)
04:11<ccfreak2k>Or wait, it doesn't.
04:11<TrueBrain>and howdie dih
04:11<roboboy>ok as I am not a fan of chipping consoles
04:11<ccfreak2k>One trick is to use a mile-long list of Pro Action Replay codes to boot the SD loader code.
04:11<TrueBrain>hahahahaha :)
04:11<ccfreak2k>So if you have a Pro Action Replay and a SD card adapter, you're set.
04:11<roboboy>unless you can somehow exploit code in a game
04:12<ccfreak2k>TrueBrain, someone did port libSDL and friends to Wii, and I took the liberty of backporting them to gamecube, which is why I have my eyes set on openttd.
04:12<TrueBrain>then a C compiler should do the rest
04:12<ccfreak2k>roboboy, yes, the infamous "Twilight Hack" did that on the Wii.
04:13<ccfreak2k>I wasn't averse to chipping my gamecube, though. It makes homebrew and the like -so- much easier.
04:14<ccfreak2k>If I can get my hands on a USB Gecko, I can even use gdb to debug programs on it.
04:14<@peter1138>"who uses the user 'backup'"
04:14<@peter1138>well, let's see, i wonder...
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04:16<roboboy>I think ive read about that
04:16<roboboy>I geuse since I have a wii it wouldn't be too bad
04:16<ccfreak2k>The Wii is more comprehensive with the hacks, mostly because A) Nintendo stepped up security on it and B) it's an arms race since the Wii doesn't have indelible firmware.
04:17<ccfreak2k>On the GC, you just have to use PAR codes to get it to start running what you want.
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04:19<blathijs>What's Pro Action Replay?
04:19<ccfreak2k>The proper name for what used to be GameShark.
04:20<blathijs>Is it like the Game Genie?
04:21<ccfreak2k>It doesn't use the same code format, but the idea is the same.
04:21<blathijs>And it has a custom mode to read and write arbitrary memory addresses or something?
04:22<ccfreak2k>No, that's its primary feature.
04:22<ccfreak2k>Action Replays (without Pro) can only exchange game saves.
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04:22<blathijs>Feels a bit like programming a game on a C64 then, I bet :-)
04:22<ccfreak2k>It doesn't read addresses, though. Only writes.
04:23<ccfreak2k>Before the game starts, you pick addresses and what values you want to have. When the game starts, the "trainer" runs in the background and makes sure it keeps those values.
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04:23<ccfreak2k>Some similar tricks were used on Atari for example, for different purposes.
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04:29<ccfreak2k>Am I a bad person for hacking up the makefile instead of ./configure?
04:30<TrueBrain>if you want others to use your code: yes
04:30<TrueBrain>as Makefile is overwritten every time you run ./configure :)
04:30<ccfreak2k>It seems like configure is trying to outsmart me.
04:31<ccfreak2k>It thinks its building to a win32 target.
04:31<TrueBrain>there is a configure switch to overrule that
04:33<blathijs>--build I think
04:33<TrueBrain>./configure --help :)
04:33<TrueBrain>blathijs: so you are wrong ;)
04:34<ccfreak2k>The only two in --help I can see are host and os, both of which are set to distinctly non-win32 targets (powerpc-eabi and UNIX repsectively).
04:34<TrueBrain>blathijs: build is always the target you are building ON, and host is always the target you are building FOR :)
04:35<blathijs>Eh? Isn't that the other way around?
04:35<TrueBrain> --build=BUILD configure for building on BUILD [guessed]
04:35<TrueBrain> --host=HOST cross-compile to build programs to run
04:35<TrueBrain> on HOST [BUILD]
04:35<TrueBrain>you have your build machine, and you have your host machine .. first is where you build it on, latter is where it will run on
04:36<blathijs>E.g, If I use my amd64 box to compile a program for arm, then --host=amd64 and --build=arm, right?
04:36<TrueBrain>you also have the confusion host / target pair in some configures, there the host is your current system, and target where you build for
04:36<blathijs>Yes, that's the common setup
04:36<TrueBrain>no, that is the uncommon :p
04:37<TrueBrain>but to answer your former question: no: --build=amd64, --host=arm
04:37<blathijs>Isn't the idea of --host to say "If you need to compile a program that needs to be run during compilation (e.g., strgen), use a compiler for this platform"
04:37<TrueBrain>blathijs: Gentoo had a lot of trouble with both systems. It turned out that build/host is most used (and makes most sense), and host/target is lesser used
04:37<TrueBrain>blathijs: that is your BUILD machine
04:38<TrueBrain>on which you are building
04:38<TrueBrain>and that is exactly the confusion :) build/host vs host/target
04:38<ccfreak2k>Anyway, my issue is that CONFIGURE_FILES for example is using win32 paths, whereas devkitpro uses UNIX paths and has a very particular setup.
04:38<blathijs>TrueBrain: Bah, you are right. I'm confusing host/target.
04:39<TrueBrain>blathijs: it is very normal to confuse both .. who ever invented host/target should be shot :)
04:39<TrueBrain>it is very ambigious :)
04:39<blathijs>Though I think host/target makes more sense (even better would have been build/target, but that's never used I guess)
04:39<TrueBrain>yes, build/target would have made the most sense :)
04:39<TrueBrain>either way, GNU for a long time promoted host/target, but now only talks about build/host
04:40<ccfreak2k>Doesn't build/host/target also have to do with the so-called Canadian cross?
04:40<TrueBrain>ccfreak2k: the fact you can use google, doesn't make you wise ;)
04:40<ccfreak2k>So help channels don't want me to be wise?
04:41<TrueBrain>Canadian Cross is a fancy way of saying cross-compiling
04:41<ccfreak2k>Don't you mean "building a compiler thrice to move it from one arch to another"?
04:41<TrueBrain>either way, for a few years, 'canadian cross' only talks about build/host :)
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04:42<TrueBrain>either way: confusing as hell :)
04:43<ccfreak2k>I don't disagree ther.e
04:45<ccfreak2k>Also, building apps for gc/wii involves and extra step: converting the elf into a dol.
04:45<ccfreak2k>How exactly would I ./configure that in?
04:45<TrueBrain>not, really :) As it is a bit insane ;)
04:45<TrueBrain>but I guess a: --run-dol-at-the-end :p
04:45<blathijs>That would probably require an addition to the makefile?
04:45<TrueBrain>we have 'strip' and 'lipo' too as final actions, so :)
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04:46<TrueBrain>just don't forget you should never edit Makefile, but always or
04:46<blathijs>And trigger that by the OS / build being GC?
04:46<TrueBrain>OS=GC would make most sense :)
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04:47<ccfreak2k>Yep, made an entry for OS=GC already.
04:47<ccfreak2k>Haven't done anything, though.
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04:51<TrueBrain>time to follow some classes ... ccfreak2k: 1 tip, don;t waste too much time on fixing it nicely, just first see/check if it works at all ;)
04:51<ccfreak2k>Bleh, what's the makefile syntax for "if OS == GC"
04:51<TrueBrain>there is enough around to figure that out :)
04:52<TrueBrain>look for MINGW in, for example
04:52<TrueBrain>or PSP
04:52<TrueBrain>or DOS
04:55<ccfreak2k>The MINGW path fix is one thing I'll probably want.
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05:06<ccfreak2k>Is only run when Makefile is?
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05:10<blathijs>ccfreak2k: Eh?
05:10<blathijs>ccfreak2k: configure generates Makefile from and Makefile.src from
05:10<blathijs>And Makefile includes Makefile.src
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05:11<ccfreak2k>Right, but the MINGW thing isn't happening at configure, so I want to know if it actually happens when make is run.
05:12<@Rubidium> ends up in objs/[release|debug]/ or even objs/[target]/[release|debug] for OSX universal binaries
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05:13<@Rubidium>and gets 'called' (as in $MAKE -C objs/../Makefile) instead of included
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05:14<blathijs>Rubidium: Ah, thanks for the correction :-)
05:17<ccfreak2k>I think I'm starting to get it now.
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05:18<Terkhen>good morning
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07:29<Forked>meep meep
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08:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19001 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_http.h network_content.cpp): -Fix: some GCC compile warnings
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08:58<Shapeshifter>How can I prevent trains from stopping in a station where they should not load or unload anything? The station is not on their orders list
08:58<Noldo>make the next order non-stop
08:59<rane>(you can make that to happen automatically)
09:00<Shapeshifter>okay thanks
09:01<Noldo>hmm, the Via order is only in trunk?
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09:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's in 1.0.0-beta as well ;)
09:19<@Rubidium>via orders are also in 0.7
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>i can't really check right now, if that feature was pre-0.7 or post-0.7
09:19<@Rubidium>and actually also before 0.7 (given the right settings)
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>i do remember now that i made a screenshot "of 0.7" with go-via orders for road vehicles
09:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19002 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#1140]: [OSX] Problems with scrolling touchpad (Peter Thorson). I can/have not test(ed) it, it cannot break non OSX builds.
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09:25<__ln__>i have not tested the #1140 patch, but at least it matches my own conclusion that the fix doesn't go into an OSX-specific file but a common one.
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09:26<@Rubidium>__ln__: still, the fix is for code that is ONLY used for the Mac port
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09:29<Eddi|zuHause>somehow, __ln__ always looks like a python magical function to me...
09:30<__ln__>Rubidium: yeah, until the human input methods on PCs advance to the level they've been on Macs for years. :)
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09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19003 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (log message trimmed)
09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3194]: [OSX] OS X 10.5+ does not (always?) handle 8bpp graphics in a
09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: suitable manner. This is actually not a fix but a nasty work around; you can
09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: still easily trigger the bug/issue by overriding the 'default' blitter choice
09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: (Brad Oliver). I can/have not test(ed) (including compiling) this fix.
09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Bjarni once suggested that 8bpp works for him on 10.5, so apparantly not all
09:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: 10.5+ does not handle 8bpp graphics. Nevertheless, it seemed that for some
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm... no... i just missed it
09:37<@Rubidium>yay for committing untested patches!
09:37<@Rubidium>and/or hacky workarounds
09:37<TrueBrain>Rubidium: well, at least you know they can compile :)
09:37<TrueBrain>but if the commits message gets longer than the commit ...
09:40<@Rubidium>anyhow, r19003 is just plain stupid
09:41<TrueBrain>OSX is
09:41<@Rubidium>it's like: some people of the age 18-25 get drunk before driving, we don't know which beforehand, so just ban all of those from driving
09:41<@Rubidium>but I guess it's common in society
09:42<@Rubidium>it's always the few trouble makers that screw the fun for the rest
09:43<__ln__>does this FS#2782 (hopelessly outdated) bug track all OSX-tagged bugs automatically, or is it done manually?
09:44<@Rubidium>e.g. how many money is wasted on useless 'anti-terrorism' stuff? The only thing the 'anti-terrorism' stuff does is feeding the fear
09:44<@Rubidium>__ln__: it's manual
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09:46<__ln__>Rubidium: ok; i'd like to point out that #3447 (SDL Port is unuseable) does not really belong to that list then, as the Mac port has been independent of SDL for years. and requires extra effort to compile with SDL.
09:47<@Rubidium>__ln__: it's there to prevent people from suggesting we use SDL instead of cocoa et al over and over again
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>but not being able to use SDL is one of the reasons why the OSX port needs so much special attention
09:49<__ln__>Rubidium: i see. and i agree the #3447 as such is a valid bug report.
09:55<@Rubidium>hmm, I would have expected that there were people clicking on the 3447 bug report in 2782, but none in the last two days (besides myself to test whether my grep was correct)
09:55<@Rubidium>then why have they stopped suggesting to use SDL all of the sudden that 3447 was added as dependency for 2782?
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09:58<planetmaker><Rubidium> anyhow, r19003 is just plain stupid <-- why... do you commit it then?
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>i read somewhere that the r19003 effect depends on the graphics driver
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>older graphics drivers work, while newer ones don't
10:00<@Rubidium>planetmaker: because apparantly OS X does not tell (reliably) whether 8bpp is supported or not
10:01<@Rubidium>and because the OS X community has definitely shown that they don't really care about a supported OpenTTD
10:02<@peter1138>they think "it compiles" is the same as "it is bug free"
10:02<@peter1138>(well, bug free may be a big strong :))
10:04<@peter1138>14:37 <@Rubidium> yay for committing untested patches!
10:04<@peter1138>14:37 <@Rubidium> and/or hacky workarounds
10:04<@peter1138>14:37 <@Rubidium> yay for committing untested patches!
10:04<@peter1138>14:37 <@Rubidium> and/or hacky workarounds
10:04<@peter1138>it's just like rigs of rods ;)
10:04<@peter1138>also, i have a stupid middle button problem :(
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10:06<@Rubidium>peter1138: but is that for the officially supported part, or for some unsupported crappy development-wise OS?
10:07<@peter1138>generally the whole bit with ror, heh
10:07<@peter1138>"whole bit" does not compute. never mind.
10:09<@Rubidium>although I must say I've committed some *BSD related patches too without actually having tested it on a *BSD system. However, the proposed patches all seemed to be 'in line' with the manpages of the functions we were using.
10:09<planetmaker><Rubidium> and because the OS X community has definitely shown that they don't really care about a supported OpenTTD <-- honestly... it reads like "Let's see whether I can break it with a couple of patches provided by people who had a look for one or two days at the source and then call them idiots for trying"
10:10<@peter1138>planetmaker, no it's "apparently these work, but we can't tell"
10:10<planetmaker>peter1138, exactly
10:11<@peter1138>no, that's different to what you wrote
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10:11<@Rubidium>planetmaker: then what do you expect from us? Just plainly dropping OS X?
10:12<@Rubidium>and I haven't called them idiots
10:12<@Rubidium>the really idiotic solutions I've already rejected
10:12<@Rubidium>and r19003 shouldn't be needed, but heh... we just work around a bug in the OS X API
10:13<@Rubidium>(or Bjarni made a mess of his 'detect 8bpp' code)
10:13<@Rubidium>but I can't tell that
10:13<@Rubidium>and none of the people who looked at it said so
10:14<@Rubidium>and also SDL has similar problems, which might mean that it's a more generic issue than just OpenTTD's issue
10:14<@Rubidium>i.e. it tips the 'who-to-blame' scale towards blaming Apple
10:15<@Rubidium>(and with Apple I also mean the drivers needed for OS X, even when written by external parties)
10:15*Rubidium wonders whether OS X has some sort of driver sanity test, like Microsoft or Linux has
10:16<@Rubidium>in case of MS the driver certification and in case of Linux the (many) reviews before it gets into the kernel
10:16<+glx>don't MAC use ATI GPU ?
10:16<planetmaker>glx, not always.
10:17<+glx>may explain why it works for some system and not for other :)
10:17<+glx>ATI and working driver is a long story
10:19<planetmaker> <-- e.g. current iMacs come with either nVidia or ATI
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10:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19004 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Codechange: silence ICC warning that 'integer conversion resulted in a change of sign'
10:28<lennard>pfft, silence, not fix? :P
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>the mafia way of silencing? :p
10:30<@peter1138>i guess it is a fix
10:30<@peter1138>change 1 to 1U
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10:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19005 /trunk/src/ (table/sprites.h viewport.cpp):
10:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: make animated cursors have a bit set instead of using negative
10:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: numbers that are passed as uints, then cast again to be compared as ints before
10:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: being inverted to be actually used. Also fixes a couple of 'integer conversion
10:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: resulted in truncation' warnings ICC spewed.
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11:37<rait_>hmm, shift+f doesn't open rail building window on the first try
11:37<rait_>f7 that is
11:38-!-rait_ is now known as rait
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>operating system? other programs interfering?
11:41<@Rubidium>it doesn't work for me either
11:41<rait>it seems that when you click on the button it doesn't work also
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11:42<@Rubidium>the default railtype code's broken
11:42<rait>seems so
11:42<rait>after you have opened it once, it works ok
11:43<rait>until you load a new game ...
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>smells like peter1138's doing ;)
11:48<@peter1138>well it smelled anyway
11:49<@peter1138>i guess i just made it smell more
11:49<rait>works in r18951, doesn't in r18973
11:51<@Rubidium> <- solves the issue, though breaks old settings
11:53<TrueBrain>lennard: done with all the maintainance? :)
11:55<Shapeshifter>how can I get towns to accept goods?
11:55-!-guru3_ is now known as guru3
11:56<rait>let them grow
11:56<Yexo>certain houses accept goods, so grow the town
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11:57<Shapeshifter>I see, thanks.
11:57*guru3 waves
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12:01<lennard>TrueBrain: yup
12:01<lennard>and i think its not crashing, either
12:02<lennard>it used to do that, after maintenance
12:02<TrueBrain>lol :)
12:02<TrueBrain>k, good :) I put it back in the mirror rotation :)
12:03<Shapeshifter>"Any town where the centre square is in the desert requires food and water to grow"
12:03<Shapeshifter>what is meant by "center square"?
12:03<@Belugas>where the town name is located
12:04<@Belugas>the sign, whatever
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>the town center is usually a road
12:06<Yexo>it's always a road unless you (or an AI company) removes the road
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19006 /trunk/src/ (48 files in 3 dirs):
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix (r18970): default rail type determination failed causing 'A'/SHIFT-F4 not
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: to work the first time. As rail types can now be anything the explicit options
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: for the different railtypes have been removed, leaving the most used rail type
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: and first/last available rail types.
12:11<Ammler>if it isn't a road, the town can't build own roads, right?
12:12<Ammler>so this is a possibility to enable/disable it for individual towns...
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12:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19007 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Prepare: 1.0.0-beta4
12:16<planetmaker>ho :-)
12:16<planetmaker>a new test version at the horizon
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: what if road layout is 3x3 and the road layouts are synched between cities?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i was kinda expecting that :p
12:16<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then the town centers are synced too
12:16<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: then the center of the town is at the grid too
12:17<planetmaker>and for towns founded manually? Are they then adjusted to the 3x3 grid?
12:18<planetmaker>k, thx :-)
12:21<Shapeshifter>mhhh. so I have a couple of water trucks between a water plant and a city with a water tower, and the trucks drive around and there's loads of water and the service is good, but the trucks don't earn a single penny, and I don't get the subsidy, even though I've been shipping water for months now
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12:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19008 /tags/1.0.0-beta4/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Release: 1.0.0-beta4
12:23<Shapeshifter>why don't I earn anything? And I guess I don't get the subsidy because I don't earn anything...
12:23<Yexo>can you upload the savegame?
12:24<Shapeshifter>Yexo: here you go
12:25<Shapeshifter>mhh, I'll be right back
12:25<Yexo>Shapeshifter: when I load that savegame you already have the subsidy and you get paid as soon as the vehicle has finished unloading
12:27<@Rubidium>maybe it's a bug in 1.0.0-beta1
12:27<@Rubidium>Shapeshifter: I'd say, wait 30-40 minutes and download+install 1.0.0-beta4
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12:45<Shapeshifter>Yexo: huh, odd. okay
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13:08*andythenorth is having fun with this neob thing
13:10<welshdragon>he's a cnut
13:10<Terkhen>fun with neob posts? that's new :P
13:11<andythenorth>to be fair, he has been trolled by mb quite extensively
13:14<Ammler> <-- empty?
13:14<Ammler>and without cz. I get a 404
13:14<@Rubidium>hmm, the script is still broken? :(
13:15<Ammler>that is from the openttd-download
13:16<Ammler>somehow the target url looks strange with that "openttd/binaries"
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13:16<Ammler>for the bundles it works
13:18<@Rubidium>well, that's the url at the mirror
13:19<Ammler>oh, the changelog _is_ empty?
13:19<@Rubidium>yeah, that's a bug in the changelog generation script
13:19<@Rubidium>I thought I fixed it last time, but apparantly I didn't
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13:21<planetmaker>andythenorth: one can not say you didn't try with neob ;-)
13:21<planetmaker>I gave up already
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13:37<TrueBrain>Ammler: and paths on different mirrors are different .. so of course removing 'cz' fails
13:37<Ammler>yeah, that I realized...
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13:38<@Rubidium>anyhow, the changelog should be fixed now
13:38<Ammler>your mirror-things seems to work awesome :-)
13:41<Ammler>Feature: Content mirroring support (r18994) <-- so the bananas urls are now fix, we can assume?
13:41<TrueBrain>nowhere in the client are any hard http links, except on (which is
13:41<TrueBrain>not till BaNaNaS is rewritten, I can tell you if they are 'fixed' or not
13:42<Ammler>yeah, but if you change that url, you need a new release, so...
13:42<TrueBrain>there is only one fixed address in the client
13:43<TrueBrain>not generated or what ever
13:43<@Rubidium>if we change the url of, then yes we need a new release. If any of the mirrors changes urls nothing whatsoever needs to be done client side
13:43<TrueBrain>we can make the links what ever we like, no change on the client side will ever be required
13:43<Ammler>so the master server does send the url?
13:43<TrueBrain>the master server has nothing to do with this
13:43<TrueBrain>maybe you should ask questions, instead of stating assumptions
13:44<Ammler>ok, question: how do I link to a grf download I uploaded to bananas
13:45<TrueBrain>you do not
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19009 /trunk/src/lang/ (turkish.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: basque - 5 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: turkish - 62 changes by niw3
13:45<TrueBrain>for now there is no valid way to do that, as it has been for the last few weeks
13:47<Ammler>yes, you removed old again...
13:47<TrueBrain>Ammler: not until there are http links on BaNaNaS itself, it is set what the URLs will be
13:48<TrueBrain>'removed old'? 'again'?
13:49<Ammler>the directory with the old releases is empty now.
13:49<TrueBrain>it always has been (or at least should have been)
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13:49<TrueBrain>for a small 12 hours they were synced, but that was removed shortly afterwards
13:50<TrueBrain>(as old BaNaNaS files are not for public download)
13:50<TrueBrain>so I take offense on the word 'again'
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13:50<Ammler>ok :-)
13:50<TrueBrain>that is not okay
13:50<TrueBrain>howdie _Ben_
13:50<Ammler>then I hit those 12 hours last time I tried ;-)
13:51<TrueBrain>I still take offense that you say 'again'. Like we remove it all the time, put it back to annoy you, and remove it again
13:51<Ammler>but authors explict allow you to distribute also old releases.
13:51<TrueBrain>I suggest you tune down the way of communication, do a tiny bit less suggestive speaking, and ask a bit more instead of assuming. It makes our jobs much better and easier
13:51<TrueBrain>I suggest you read our ToS
13:51<@Rubidium>Ammler: it's in the details
13:52<_Ben_>I'm completly baffled as to logging onto the wiki. I've treid every password, and allowing all cookies. I've then treid merging accounts but it says that neither the account exsists (which I am currently logged in with!), and nore does the wiki account.
13:52<Ammler>TrueBrain: I just mean, you could distribute those.
13:52<TrueBrain>@kban Ammler 60 READ OUR TOS
13:52-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
13:52-!-Ammler was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [READ OUR TOS]
13:52<TrueBrain>I hate repeating myself
13:52<TrueBrain>_Ben_: sounds bad :p PM me your account NAMES (no passwords please :p)
13:53<_Ben_>TrueBrain, Ok thanks
13:53-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
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13:54<TrueBrain>I wonder if Ammler knows how he speaks ... saying what should be done, instead of asking why something is done like it is ... kind of annoying
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>he's from switzerland, these people are weird due to centuries of inbreeding...
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's almost as bad as people from iceland :p
13:56*__ln__ heard some Schwyzerdütsch spoken yesterday
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's one of the weird effects :p
14:01*jonty-comp wonders if it's a coincidence that he's been to Switzerland and Iceland, and not many other places
14:02<jonty-comp>other than France, but that was only to go to Disneyland, which has no French people in it anyway
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing i have seen of iceland is the airport
14:03<jonty-comp>I got stuck in that airport for 16 hours -.-
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14:17<thomas001>hi..what is the state of cargo destinations in the current openttd 1.0 beta?
14:18<TrueBrain>not there? :)
14:18<thomas001>hmm :)
14:18<thomas001>will it be there till 1.0 final? ^^
14:19<thomas001>at least its on the 1.0 roadmap
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14:20<Yexo>the roadmap wiki page ays very clearly " Major features that could possibly be in 1.0.0 " => "could possible", so not "will definitely"
14:22<thomas001>sure,thats why i ask about its state ;)
14:26<TrueBrain>maybe for 1.1 .. if someone steps up to really finish it / make it stable
14:28<@Rubidium>it has been on the roadmap for many versions, so don't get your hopes up
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14:38<Shapeshifter>So, I keep getting offerings over shipping goods to some city (got around 1000 inhabitants), but if I want to build a lorry station, or click on the main train station (which is quite central), I don't see anything that accepts goods. if I do this, goods will just pile at the stations
14:39<Shapeshifter>will they start accepting goods if I ship them?
14:41<Shapeshifter>also, does it matter how near a station is to something in terms of how much of the total share of goods from that place it gets to be shipped?
14:41<Alberth>open a station build window, select a station and move the station around over the city. If the window says it accepts goods, building at that place will accept goods
14:42<Shapeshifter>I get the feeling that my train station, which is a bit further away, get's very little food from the plant, while some lorry stations nearby are overfilled with food.
14:42<Shapeshifter>Alberth: I did exactly that, but there's no place that accepts goods
14:42<Xaroth>grow the city
14:42<Alberth>in that case, you cannot build a station that will accept goods :)
14:42<Xaroth>make it happy, transport people to it
14:43<Xaroth>it'll grow eventually, at which point you can transport goods to it
14:43<Shapeshifter>yeah but why do I get offerings for subsidies for goods to that place, then?
14:43<Shapeshifter>why would anyone subsidy something they don't need? is this an attempt to simulate real world governments? xD
14:43<@Belugas>cuase the system does not know you cannot
14:43<Alberth>about distance: no it does not matter, only rating does
14:43<@Belugas>it sends the offering to all who wants to hear
14:43<Shapeshifter>Alberth: okay thanks.
14:44<Shapeshifter>Belugas: well it hasn't got something to do with _me_, but with the place they want the goods to be sent for subsidies
14:44<Shapeshifter>but that place doesn't accept goods.
14:45<@Belugas>who knows, by the time you finish your lines, maybe it would?
14:45<Alberth>especially if you inject some money/buildings into the city
14:46<Alberth>but usually, I don't care much about subsidized transport :)
14:49<@Belugas>me neither
14:49<@Belugas>if it is granted, it's a bonus
14:49<@Belugas>of course
14:49<@Belugas>don't run for it at all cost
14:49<@Belugas>and... remember... it's a gameuh
14:52<andythenorth>hi hi
14:53*Belugas is thinking of that guy who suggested in forums that small airports should not allow big planes to land, since.. it's not realistic
14:57*Alberth considers adding vertical runways... it's not realistic
14:57<Alberth>hi andythenorth
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14:59<Shapeshifter>Nah, but this is broken. If I take a big train station to be built, and swipe it over the city, and two adjacent spots "goods" pop up in the list. obviously I can't build a train station directly above the city. But if I take a lorry station, and go to the same place, there's no "goods" to be found
14:59<Eddi|zuHause><Shapeshifter> why would anyone subsidy something they don't need? <-- that's entirely the point of subsidies... forcing to open a market where the natural ("free") market does not exist
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14:59<Shapeshifter>Eddi|zuHause: mh guess you're right.
15:00<Shapeshifter>so I can't shipt the goods using feeders
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15:00<Shapeshifter>because no lorry station wants to accept goods :|
15:00<Bluelight>What is a lorry station?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>you typically need 3 office buildings in a city to accept goods
15:00<Shapeshifter>Eddi|zuHause: ah. I have them. but they're far apart.
15:01<Shapeshifter>too far for a lorry station
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>then build a bigger station
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15:01<Shapeshifter>I can't build a bigger lorry station
15:01<Bluelight>Where are you playing?
15:01<Shapeshifter>Bluelight: a truck station
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>you can join two stations together
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>with ctrl+click
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>they will cover all buildings inbetween them
15:02<Shapeshifter>Eddi|zuHause: ohh
15:02*Shapeshifter tries
15:02<Bluelight>Shapeshifter: where do you play? On what server..
15:03<Bluelight>I wanna join, lol
15:03<Shapeshifter>Eddi|zuHause: yay that worked.
15:03<Shapeshifter>Bluelight: I play offline ;)
15:03<Bluelight>Ohh.. lol
15:03<Shapeshifter>I just started the other day
15:04<Shapeshifter>Eddi|zuHause: I can't join existing stations?
15:04<Bluelight>Cool! Hope you enjoy that game then.. :)
15:04<Bluelight>It's fun on a non-competiotion server..
15:04<@Belugas>[14:57] * Alberth considers adding vertical runways... it's not realistic <-- Highway to Hell !!!!
15:05<Bluelight>You don't have to be good to play online and have fun..
15:06<Shapeshifter>Bluelight: I'm enyoing it ;)
15:07<Bluelight>Well I'm about to play some on Luukland normal servwer I guess..
15:07<planetmaker>servers or sewers? :D
15:07<Bluelight>sewers.. lol
15:08<Bluelight>Nice to see you here planetmaker
15:08<planetmaker>same same :-)
15:08<Bluelight>My stove smells burnt garlic butter..
15:09<planetmaker>if not burnt too much, it'll be delicious :-)
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15:10<Eddi|zuHause>Shapeshifter: no, only new stations to an existing one
15:11<Eoin>night night
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15:33<TrueBrain>I official hate MediaWiki
15:33<TrueBrain>just so you know
15:34<jonty-comp>so, use tikiwiki instead
15:34<TrueBrain>is there a convertor?
15:35<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I think you will be shot dead, very thoroughly dead, if you convert it to tikiwiki
15:35<jonty-comp>n.b. that wasn't an official suggestion, if the openttd wiki changed to tikiwiki I think I might commit suicide
15:35<TrueBrain>Rubidium: cool :)
15:35<aber>noooo, you killed kenny and broke mac compatibility. (Ihr ****eine).
15:35<TrueBrain>1-0 for aber
15:35<PeterT>TrueBrain: Why do you hate MediaWiki?
15:35<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: really? Hmmmmm ........
15:35<jonty-comp>wait, that wasn't an official statement either
15:35<TrueBrain>PeterT: because it is a piece of crap! Using _ as \s, but not always, and it completely fucks up LDAP authentication
15:36<jonty-comp>I would agree that mediawiki is a mildly annoying piece of crap
15:36<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: nah, I like you too much ;)
15:36<@Rubidium>aber: *WE* broke Mac compatability?
15:36<PeterT>TikiWiki looks very ugly
15:36<jonty-comp>but on the open-source piece of crap scale, it's quite lot on the list
15:36<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: yeah .. it is the best of the worst
15:38<jonty-comp>I hear that phrase a lot in software :p
15:38*jonty-comp tries to think of some software that is actually best of the best
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15:40<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: MSVC, as IDE
15:40<TrueBrain>Zend, as IDE
15:40<TrueBrain>OpenTTD, as game
15:40<jonty-comp>MSVC might fit I suppose
15:40<@Rubidium>aber: oh lol... so much for quality of the patches that Mac OS X users provide
15:41<jonty-comp>but the rest of VS doesn't :p
15:41<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: completely agree
15:41<TrueBrain>that is why I added: as IDE :)
15:41<jonty-comp>can you do Windows Forms in MSVC? I've never quite wanted to try
15:42<jonty-comp>in fact, I shall do the leet thing and have a look right now
15:42<TrueBrain>I don't have a Windows installation :p
15:42<@Rubidium>aber: got no idea how to fix that compile error
15:42<jonty-comp>except I have the 2010 beta, which is probably different
15:42<@Rubidium>well, I've got an idea but that entails buying a Mac, which I refuse to do
15:43<jonty-comp>aha, it does do Windows Forms
15:43<jonty-comp>it has gone down in my estimation
15:43<@Rubidium>jonty-comp: good luck with MSVC 2010 compiling OpenTTD ;)
15:43<jonty-comp>I use msys for all that anyway!
15:44*Shapeshifter is waiting for beta4 to hit the repo.
15:44<@Rubidium>Shapeshifter: what repo?
15:44<Shapeshifter>Rubidium: archlinux ;) they're usually very fast
15:45<Shapeshifter>mh. or I could just install from svn.
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15:46<welshdragon>Shapeshifter: prod Sacro
15:46<welshdragon>he builds for Arch
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15:47<jonty-comp>welshdragon: you do realise that in saying "prod Sacro", you've probably already prodded him yourself
15:47<Shapeshifter>welshdragon: thanks. I wrote to him in #archlinux on freenode.
15:47<jonty-comp>lol freenode
15:47<welshdragon>Shapeshifter: he's a lazy 'tard
15:47<welshdragon>and needs prodding a few times
15:48<Shapeshifter>mh. but svn is fine I guess.
15:48<welshdragon>(he is also gar IRL)
15:49<Shapeshifter>because I really think there's a bug in this version I have here, where everytime a new office building gets built, it switches "no longer accepts goods".
15:50-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:50<Shapeshifter>driving me nuts. everytime, I have to build a new lorry station and send trucks there
15:50<jonty-comp>welshdragon: how discriminatory
15:50<welshdragon>jonty-comp: 's true though
15:50<Alberth>buildings don't accept/produce cargo when they are being constructed
15:50<welshdragon>did you not see how camp he was at the York meet?
15:50*jonty-comp makes fun of welshdragon being welsh
15:51<jonty-comp>I saw how welsh you were at the meet!
15:51<welshdragon>s' true
15:51<welshdragon>Born_Acorn is more Welsh than me though!
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15:51<Shapeshifter>Alberth: no, but everytime one gets built, the existing lorry station which is accepting goods switches goods off
15:51<Shapeshifter>I build a new one, and it's fine again
15:52<Sacro>can someone update the topic
15:53<Sacro>i've been informed that beta4 is out
16:03<rait>would if could ...
16:04<@Rubidium>Sacro: I reckon someone can update the topic
16:05<Sacro>Rubidium: do it then :P
16:06<@Rubidium>too much effort
16:06<Alberth>the problem is that someone is never here when you need him
16:07<@Rubidium>if only DorpsGek could automatically update the topic
16:07<welshdragon>this is why a supybot wins
16:08<Alberth>we still need someone to teach it :p
16:08<blathijs>Rubidium: Ah, beta4 is already out? I thought you meant packaging beta4 when it got out, but you mean ASAP :-)
16:09<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it could, if you program it :p
16:09<TrueBrain>welshdragon: well, I don't see how it does ...
16:09<@Rubidium>blathijs: when I asked/suggested it to you beta4 wasn't released yet
16:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19010 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove a now unneeded check at CmdBuildRailStation.
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16:11<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: the bot is already fragile enough :)
16:11<TrueBrain>Rubidium: very true :)
16:13-!-Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.5, 1.0.0-beta4 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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16:14<blathijs>Rubidium: Heh :-)
16:15<Shapeshifter>can I copy over the configs from beta3 to beta4 overwriting everything?
16:15<Shapeshifter>(I have both versions installed with different config folders in ~)
16:16<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS filenames have changed; although it should not download the same file twice, just know the syntax has changed slightly :)
16:16<@Rubidium>blathijs: though I guess doing 0.7.5-2 first before 1.0.0-beta4 (in exp) might be better
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16:18<blathijs>Rubidium: Yeah, I wanna upload 0.7.5-2 this week (I've asked jordi for a review. he's back from vacation)
16:18<blathijs>anyway, I'm off
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16:26<andythenorth>out of interest, who maintains bananas?
16:26<andythenorth>BaNaNaS /s
16:26<TrueBrain>the crowd
16:26<TrueBrain>(it is self maintaining)
16:27<andythenorth>ace, I wish my code was self maintaining :P
16:27<andythenorth>who maintains the code for BaNaNaS?
16:27<TrueBrain>it is in SVN :)
16:28*andythenorth sigh
16:28<TrueBrain>and seen by the commit log, it is mostly me or Rubidium who touches the code
16:28<andythenorth>now I actually have to use the mouse and go look somewhere in the repo I have checked out :o
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16:29<planetmaker>andythenorth: with a 'usual' openttd checkout you don't checkout the webpage
16:29-!-th1ngwath [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:29<andythenorth>I did something unusual....unintentionally mind
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16:33<andythenorth>hmmm....django's kind of pleasantly self-explanatory
16:36<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I'm guessing there's a sql query for number of downloads of a BaNaNaS item? I can't find it in the repo?
16:36<TrueBrain>andythenorth: we use Django
16:36<TrueBrain>we don't do queries
16:36<TrueBrain>it does it for us
16:37<TrueBrain>bananas/ shows a field in File object called 'downloads
16:37<Noldo>in Django queries do you
16:37<TrueBrain>this contains the amount of downloads
16:37<TrueBrain>mind you: increasing of the value is NOT done by the website
16:37-!-oskari89 [] has quit [Quit: Untenmaa, Utm A½ - Aja 35 Odota seis]
16:37<TrueBrain>it is inserted via various of other ways
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16:39<andythenorth>TrueBrain: thanks. (I'm used to Zope, which has a python object database). I sort of assume everyone else is writing crazy sql :o I guess I'm wrong :)
16:39<TrueBrain>Django is nice :)
16:39<TrueBrain>takes out the hard work completely :)
16:40<aber>Who lost the "src/video/cocoa/macos.h" file?
16:41<frosch123>it was inappropiate for apple; it did not start with an "i"
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16:44<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I have read the source of, but am unsure....when 'updating' a grf, does BaNaNaS overwrite the old one, or keep multiple versions?
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16:45<@Rubidium>andythenorth: it keeps multiple versions, only the last will be shown in-game (by default), unless you know the 'id' and md5 checksum and request it by that
16:45<andythenorth>so the number of downloads for each version could in theory be calculated / shown?
16:45<TrueBrain>it shows per version :)
16:45<TrueBrain>upload a new, counter is at 0 :p
16:46<TrueBrain>either way, sorry, got to go .. going out :)
16:46<TrueBrain>bye!! :)
16:46<Noldo>have fun
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16:48*andythenorth wonders how to test a potential patch to BaNaNaS? (scratches head)
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16:49<@Rubidium>andythenorth: ask very nicely whether we want to patch the test environment?
16:50<andythenorth>ok, so I should figure out the patch first :)
16:50<aber>so, in "src/video/cocoa/" is a "#include "macos.h"", but there is no macos.h.
16:50<andythenorth>I just want to see download counts for all versions of a grf, shouldn't be too hard?
16:50<andythenorth>this would show in
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16:54<Yexo>aber: r19003, part of the commit message is "I can/have not test(ed) (including compiling) this fix.", so that proves true
16:55<Bluelight>It's weird, but sometimes I just can't get to play on Luuklands servers.. I lose connection all the time for long periods of time..
16:56<aber>Can someone revert that "fix"? I don't know it calls some function inside some nonexistent file?
16:56<@Rubidium>aber: better come with a fix for the fix
16:56<Yexo>aber: can you change the line to #include "../../os/macosx/macos.h"
16:56<Yexo>see if that works
16:56<aber>like "return false"
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17:04<aber>if i would like to put the mac binary on my homepage, what else do i have to display? Source? Link?
17:05<andythenorth>Rubidium: I've got a patched file for bananas (changes one html file)...what should I do? Learn to diff?
17:07<@Rubidium>andythenorth: try svn diff
17:08<planetmaker>aber: only publish what you get by using 'make bundle_dmg'
17:08<planetmaker>(or make bundle)
17:08<planetmaker>Then you have all required files
17:09<@Rubidium>though technically he has to 'release' the source too, especially because it's modified from what we released
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17:09<andythenorth>Rubidium: got a diff, what should I do with it next? :)
17:10<@Rubidium>upload it somewhere so TrueBrain or I can take a look at it
17:12<Yexo>aber: did changeing the include to #include "../../os/macosx/macos.h" help or what else did you change?
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17:13<aber>One minute, i'm compiling. I did a revert. And at the moment i'm trying to change the include path...
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17:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19011 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_changelog.hpp: -Update: AI changelog
17:14<andythenorth>Rubidium: posted in the development forum
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17:15<Shapeshifter>trains go into depots even if they're full of people, right?
17:15<Shapeshifter>you just lose a little bit of rating because it takes a while
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17:16<planetmaker>right... r19903 broke it. Yexo : yes, that's it:
17:17<planetmaker>at least it compiles then for me.
17:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r19012 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ -Fix (r19003): macos.h is not in video/cocoa/ but in os/macosx/.
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17:19<planetmaker>thx, Yexo :-)
17:19<planetmaker>and have you all a good night
17:19<Yexo>good night planetmaker
17:19<Yexo>and thanks for testing it :)
17:19<aber>i compiled that one too.
17:19-!-Guest798 is now known as PeterT
17:19<planetmaker>I need a version with rail types anyway :-)
17:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19013 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/manager.html: [Website] -Change: show number of downloads of each version in the manager's view (andythenorth)
17:20<planetmaker>:-O Nice, andythenorth !
17:20<Yexo>nice andythenorth :)
17:21<PeterT>andythenorth: Cool feature! You actually patched that?
17:21<Yexo>PeterT: yes, see the dev forum
17:21<PeterT>wow, just posted?
17:21<PeterT>nice job andythenorth!
17:22<andythenorth>PeterT: hold your horse, it's three <td> tags :P
17:23<andythenorth>and um...I write html and python all day some days
17:23<PeterT>so this change, it's in effect immediately/
17:24*andythenorth wonders if django can execute code in html tags (like zope can)? A total would be useful...
17:24<Yexo>PeterT: yes
17:25<blathijs>andythenorth: You can use template tags to do nifty stuff
17:26<@Rubidium>would be be at 7 million bananas downloads within 10 days?
17:27<andythenorth>oook indeed
17:27<andythenorth>Prof_Frink: ever passed over blind yeo?
17:29<blathijs>andythenorth: Not sure if there is a tag to do what you want, though
17:30<andythenorth>I want to create a summary total of downloads for all versions of a given asset
17:30<andythenorth>I don't know if it's best done in the view 'manager', or in the template?
17:31<@Rubidium>hmm, no don't think we'll be at 7 million bananas downloads in 10 days; recent averages seem to be dropping below 30k a day, so we're probably not going to make it
17:31<andythenorth>I would think add it to the view, then render it in the template
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17:32<andythenorth>too much code in html templates is frowned upon in my day job :|
17:32<blathijs>andythenorth: I don't think django supports real code at all in the templates, so :-)
17:33<andythenorth>hey ho, the counts in this page are probably rendered in the template
17:34<andythenorth> Industries (<span tal:replace="python:len(economies[economy_repeat]['industries)]'"/>):
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17:38<blathijs>andythenorth: That doesn't look like django? Also, a count and a sum are different things :-)
17:39-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:39<andythenorth>that's not django, that's Zope, with TAL templating. TAL is available in Django I think, but is optional
17:39<andythenorth>or so google leads me to believe
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17:40<andythenorth>lines 7 and 9 - I think that will provide me with a total that I can render in html?
17:40<andythenorth>line 10 sorry
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17:41<@Rubidium>yeah, possibly... but because that's code stuff I rather have that TB takes a look at it when you're done with the rest
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17:42<andythenorth>ok, I'll post a diff when I'm done. the html for that should be simple
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18:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r19014 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] AIOrder::[G|S]etStopLocation to get/set the stop location of trains in a rail station
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18:29<PeterT>hey zachanima!
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18:29<zachanima>PeterT, oh, hello
18:29<zachanima>long time since I have uttered a word in here
18:30<PeterT>zachanima: I merged CargoDist and IS
18:31<zachanima>very nice
18:31<zachanima>and it works as intended?
18:31<PeterT>the graphs, not really
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18:32<PeterT>they don't show cargo delivered to shared stations
18:34<@Rubidium>cargodist and is working as intended? Not without some, quite big, changes to both patches so it (optionally) routes cargo via multiple companies
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18:40<ccfreak2k>fatInitDefault() ? init = 1 : init = 0;
18:40<ccfreak2k>Is this syntactically correct?
18:40-!-ajmiles [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:41<@Rubidium>for what?
18:41<ccfreak2k>For C.
18:42<@Rubidium>yeah, though I'd write it differently
18:47<Shapeshifter>mh. this odd stuff is still happening. the city, now at 1700 people, will randomly stop accepting goods.
18:47<Shapeshifter>a few months later it starts accepting them again
18:47<@Rubidium>then it's rebuilding a building that accepted goods bringing it under the threshold for accepting goods
18:48<Shapeshifter>mh. problem is then the goods start piling up and when they accept goods again at a station, the goods that are already there sit around.
18:48<Shapeshifter>and I have to drive in circles picking up the goods and dropping them again
18:49<@Rubidium>then don't force unload
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19:15<Terkhen>good night
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19:28<PeterT>Yes, NekoMaster, make your own topic dedicated to builds for Linux, that way the OpenTTD Section will be *less* confusing
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19:33<ccfreak2k>I was thinking of bumping the Wii topic if I get SDL off the ground.
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19:34<PeterT>Why would you want to play OpenTTD on Wii anyway?
19:34<ccfreak2k>Why would I want to play it on MorphOS?
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19:38<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: to please tokai?
19:39<PeterT>ccfreak2k: Because it's actually playable on MorphOS
19:39<ccfreak2k>And soon it may be playable on the Wii. :)
19:39<ccfreak2k>Or at least the gamecube. No Wii here.
19:39<PeterT>With that dumb remote?
19:40<PeterT>I don't support anything Nintendo
19:40<PeterT>They hurt me badly
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19:40<ccfreak2k>The Nintendo 64 was the last Nintendo console I bought new.
19:40<ccfreak2k>My GameCube was from a friend who has a Wii so he didn't need it anymore.
19:40<PeterT>Wii's suck
19:41<PeterT>the games are pitiful
19:41<PeterT>what is it called when you execute "svn add *.*"
19:41<PeterT>is it "adding it to the repo"?
19:41<PeterT>would that be correct to say/write?
19:44<ccfreak2k>I only know checkout and commit. :|
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19:48<PeterT>No, not commit
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19:49<PeterT>it's just for when you added a file, for example foo.cpp, and you want that to be shown in and "svn diff > bar.diff", you would need to add it to the repo
19:49<PeterT>so that it will show up
19:49<PeterT>for now, it only "diffs" what is part of the repo
19:49<ccfreak2k>I'm on win32 primarily, so TortoiseSVN does everything for me magically.
19:49<PeterT>otherwise, you would have useless "*.orig" files
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19:59<PeterT> </advertise>
19:59<SmatZ>@seen yorick
19:59<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: I have not seen yorick.
20:00<PeterT>SmatZ: If he hasn't been in the past month or so, DorpsGek will not show it
20:00<PeterT>night, Bluelight
20:00-!-Bluelight [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]]
20:03<PeterT>what about it, ccfreak2k
20:03<ccfreak2k>Isn't there already a program for win32 that gets SVN + patches and compiles them for you in one click?
20:03<PeterT>No, there isn't
20:05<PeterT>which program would you be talking about? ccfreak2k?
20:05<PeterT>perhaps MSVC is close to that
20:05<PeterT>I mean, all you need to do is gather some libraries and compile
20:05<ccfreak2k>It was a stand-alone thing. I recall it setting up mingw.
20:05<PeterT>and tortoise svn can do the patching
20:10<roboboy>there was a program for patching openttd and downloading source
20:10<ccfreak2k>I knew it, I'm not crazy!
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20:12<PeterT>No, you are still crazy
20:12<PeterT>hehe, :-)
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20:29<PeterT>I like this starting screen:
20:30<ccfreak2k>Does New Game still go to the map setup screen?
20:31<PeterT>now, or then?
20:31<ccfreak2k>In whatever that image version is.
20:31<ccfreak2k>Oh, 2682
20:32<ccfreak2k>Nevermind then. :x
20:32<PeterT>I'm not sure, I just saw the screen and I liked it
20:32<ccfreak2k>Well, sdl-wii appears to pass "testbitmap".
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20:38<PeterT>the world ends when you can successfully divide by zero!
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen many worlds where you could divide by zero
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20:40<PeterT_>@calc 1/0
20:40<@DorpsGek>PeterT_: Error: float division
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20:41<PeterT>dorpsgek wanted the world not to end
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>there's an entire maths around dividing by zero
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20:45<PeterT>yes, yes
20:45<PeterT>property of reciprocals and such
20:46<PeterT>so that a*1/a=1
20:46<PeterT>more like a*(1/a)=1
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20:47<SmatZ>iirc, similiar case is 0!
20:47<SmatZ>sometimes it's better when it's 0, sometimes 1
20:47<SmatZ>(so there are no special cases)
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>see andöbius_transformation
20:50<SmatZ>at least in C you don't +-inf
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's why it gets useful ;)
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>because there's no difference between 1/(+0) and 1/(-0)
20:53-!-roboboy [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>the part where it gets interesting is that in this space, straight lines and circles are the same object ;)
20:55-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>straight lines are just circles that go through the infinity point
20:56<SmatZ>hehe, yeah :)
20:56<PeterT>since it is like saying "0/0=? equals ?*0=0"
20:56<PeterT>and 0 would satisfy that
20:56<PeterT>Again, any number multiplied by 0 is 0 and so this time every number solves the equation instead of there being a single number which can be taken as the value of 0/0.
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: that equation is unlikely to hold...
20:57<PeterT>I thought so :-p
20:59<ccfreak2k>testfile does not pass.
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: that page also references the riemann sphere
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>"In the Riemann sphere, 1/0 = oo, but 0/0 is undefined, as is 0*oo"
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21:06<PeterT>is positive infinity plus negative infinity == 0?
21:07<SmatZ>infinity is not a number
21:09<SmatZ>inf-inf is not defined
21:09<SmatZ>you could then do:
21:09<SmatZ>5 = 5 + inf - inf = (5 + inf) - inf = inf - inf = 0
21:09<SmatZ>then wtf
21:09<PeterT>[21:09:20] <SmatZ> then wtf
21:10<SmatZ>similiar, 5 = 5 * inf / inf = (5 * inf) / inf = inf / inf = 1
21:10<SmatZ>again, wtf
21:10<SmatZ>don't do that :-p
21:10<PeterT>"(5 * inf) / inf = inf / inf" <-- what?
21:10<PeterT>where did the 5 go?
21:11<SmatZ>5 * inf is still inf, right?
21:11<Yexo>I remember a similar one
21:11<SmatZ>you can define operations with inf as you wish :-p
21:11<Yexo>1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + .... = INF
21:11<Yexo>1 + 3 + 5 + ... = INF
21:11<Yexo>2 + 4 + 6 + ... = INF
21:12<Yexo>1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + .... = (1 + 3 + 5 + ...) + (2 + 4 + 6 + ...)
21:12<Yexo>INF = INF + INF -> INF = 0
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21:12<PeterT>INF < INF
21:12<PeterT>inf > inf
21:12<PeterT>-inf < inf
21:13<SmatZ>inf ?= inf
21:14<SmatZ>have a look how operations with inf are defined in ieee754, it's defined in a sensible way (iirc)
21:14<ccfreak2k>+INF and -INF.
21:15<PeterT>would the same thing apply to (1/0)-(1/0)=0?
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21:16<SmatZ>simply said, you can't divide by zero
21:16<SmatZ>stop thinking about it :-p
21:16<TMS>Wish me luck, I'm reinstalling Windows now.
21:16<SmatZ>TMS: enjoy
21:16<SmatZ>you can use limits for that
21:17<PeterT>nice, TMS
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21:17<SmatZ>like... lim (x->0) (1/x - 1/x) = lim(x->0) (0/x)
21:17<SmatZ>then... it differs for x->0+ and x->0-
21:18<SmatZ>so it's either +inf or -inf
21:18<SmatZ>but lim x->0 is undefined
21:18<PeterT>I don't know lim
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21:20<Yexo><SmatZ> like... lim (x->0) (1/x - 1/x) = lim(x->0) (0/x) <- I'm not seeing how that works
21:20<Yexo>as long as x != 0 then (1/x - 1/x) = 0, so why use the limit at all?
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's an example where lim(a+b) != lim(a) + lim(b)
21:23<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, 0/0, oo/oo, 0*oo, oo-oo are all the same thing, you can transform each one into the other
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>so each one is undefined the same way...
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21:39<PeterT>night all
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21:47<ccfreak2k>Is it reasonable for an SDL program to open a file in read-only mode and expect rwops->write to return 0 if it tried to write to it?
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 05 00:00:18 2010