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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-17

---Logopened Wed Feb 17 00:00:12 2010
---Daychanged Wed Feb 17 2010
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03:23*andythenorth wants to flame MB and resists
03:25<kd5pbo>Who's MB?
03:26<@Rubidium>yeah, he always rants that his NewGRF is superior because it implements that AI callback thingy and that it must be obeyed...
03:30<planetmaker>good morning
03:32<+andythenorth>MB: "Introduction of "vehicle classes" had been discussed as well, years ago."
03:32<+andythenorth>which is nice, but I wasn't around
03:33<planetmaker>andythenorth, that's one of his 'default' style of answers.
03:33<+andythenorth>and I've shipped a lot of code since then
03:33<planetmaker>for anything which is against his liking
03:33<+andythenorth>so I missed out on a conversation with MB in 2003, and I don't get to make feature requests?
03:33<planetmaker>your main fault is that you code for the wrong game [TM]
03:34<@Rubidium>andythenorth: yes, you should have searched
03:34*andythenorth searches
03:34<@Rubidium>and *especially* the german forum and his private conversations
03:35*andythenorth finds...not a lot of use
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05:24<planetmaker> <-- Nice. Obviously someone didn't use the search function probably and didn't check discussions made 'years ago'. :-D
05:25<planetmaker>though I find it hard to find the newgrf v8 discussion thread, too
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07:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19147 /trunk/src/lang/ (24 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
07:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
07:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: all - update layout to latest english.txt
07:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hebrew - 2 changes by dnd_man
07:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by prof
07:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
07:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 35 changes by mantaray
07:19*TrueBrain loves latest XKCD :)
07:20<planetmaker>eh... is CIA late or is the commit time so unusual?
07:20<planetmaker>hm... the latter
07:21<TrueBrain>I am happy to read you got used to WT3 committing at 19:45 :)
07:21<planetmaker>of course :-) I rely on that to get translations into the next nightly ;-)
07:21<TrueBrain>but the second line is the key line in this commit
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07:22<planetmaker>ah :-) I only reat up to "<CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators..."
07:22*roboboy stabs arround in the source for stuff related to the version
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07:25<TrueBrain>if mor epeople would touch languages, it wouldn't be needed, such commits :p
07:26<planetmaker>those are the languages which didn't have a commit for... longer?
07:27<TrueBrain>seemly :)
07:28<roboboy>can I get openttd to report to the user as being version r****M but internally think its r**** ? eg I have applied a client side GUI patch that does not affect MP and thus allow the moded client to conect to non moded servers but have the user not report bugs to the devs because they see it as a non official build. Or would that just cause more problems?
07:29<TrueBrain>would cause problems.
07:33<Ammler>roboboy: it should already, check gamelog
07:34<planetmaker>The game log tells you only about modified trunk or not. Thus a knowledgable person will be able to tell. But the usual player won't, if it tells r19145 or r19145 with client patches
07:35<Ammler>well, I guess, that is why you need the save
07:36<Ammler>in earlier versions, it was possible to join with different version string
07:36<planetmaker>Probably the only practical way is to provide binaries only with a BIG RED WARNING about error reports going to the thread the binaries are being posted. Or just posting the patches and have people compile themselves.
07:36<TrueBrain>in which earlier verisons you talk about Ammler?
07:36<Ammler>I guess, blathijs changed that sometime, no idea why.
07:36<Ammler>TrueBrain: around 0.6-07
07:36<TrueBrain>from the moment I wrote the new network protocol, it was not possible to join with different versions
07:37<TrueBrain>it was there from day one
07:37<Ammler>TrueBrain: with -n it was
07:37<Ammler>I am quite sure, it was :-)
07:38<TrueBrain>the only problems in the first days was that we couldn't detect the revision for people using MSVC, and so there we a norev000, which skipped detection
07:38<TrueBrain>this, lucky enough, has finally be completely removed
07:39<Ammler>shouldn't be that hard to search for the commit, one of the latest blathijs commits...
07:39<TrueBrain>I also remember the first 'client' side patch ... having the command: Random() in it .. weird .. it caused desyncs ...
07:40<planetmaker>There's two randoms, aren't ther? InteractiveRandom and Random.
07:40<planetmaker>IIRC one is a desync issue, the other not. Do I err?
07:40<TrueBrain>in reversed order, yup
07:40<planetmaker>Yeah, I didn't recall which. I just knew that there's a place which I'd have to look for, if I had to bother
07:41<TrueBrain>one should rename InteractiveRandom to ClientSideOnlyRandom
07:41<planetmaker>would make perfect sense, yes
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07:42<planetmaker>but then it might make also perfect sense with the current name. Dunno :-)
07:43<TrueBrain>perfect sense, clearly not, as you need to think about it :p
07:43<TrueBrain>usability 1-on-1 :)
07:44<Ammler>he, what is his svn nick? ( blathijs )
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07:52*roboboy ponders posting a moded binary that will report as being clean in a passworded zip
07:52<roboboy>hopefuly it will force users to read the entire post to use it
07:53<planetmaker>^ :-)
07:53<TrueBrain>I think there should be a new forum policy: binaries posted as officials should be removed, and a link should be put to the official download place :p
07:53<@SmatZ>it will only cause tens of replies "wtf winzip says it's passworded plz halp!"
07:53<@Rubidium>it'll only force users to make countless "what's the password" posts
07:54<roboboy>It will be in my thread and I wont tell them if they ask me
07:54<roboboy>but I may not post it
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07:55<planetmaker>roboboy, I'm registered at a forum with various sub-sections. One is dedicated to law questions. German law forbids to answer personalized law questions by persons which are NOT a lawer. Thus they made a big warning in red letters, that you shall post anonymized. You have to confirm that for every posting made in that section. Guess the quota of threads started in a way like "I have a problem..." instead of "assume that..."
07:55<TrueBrain>people don't read. period.
07:56<roboboy>well I shall not post it
07:58<@Rubidium>planetmaker: stupid law... if rephrasing a sentence circumvents it :)
07:58<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it is germany! What else did you expect?
07:58<planetmaker>Rubidium, yeah :-) Just discuss a general issue which applies perfectly to your case. That's fine. But don't use 'I'. Oh well. That's law.
07:58<planetmaker>It's not logical
07:58<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: bi-weekly invasions?
07:58<planetmaker>And additional it's Germany, yes. People are obsessed with such things.
07:59<planetmaker>Like it or not, it's a fact :S
08:00<@Rubidium>planetmaker: well, law... it's not quite a fact :)
08:00<planetmaker>I meant the obsession ;-)
08:01<@Rubidium>now figure this: countless people from Germany come shopping *here* "because it's cheaper" and countless people from *here* go shopping in Germany "because it's cheaper"... something doesn't add up
08:02<planetmaker>hehe ;-)
08:02<@Rubidium>well, unless they're coffee addicted
08:02<Noldo>different things?
08:02<planetmaker>I guess it doess add up. ^
08:02<@Rubidium>apparantly that's cheaper here seeing the quantity of German coffee in the shops around here
08:02<planetmaker>Try to go to a typical convenience store here and get Vla or stroopwaffels.
08:03<planetmaker>Quite difficult, tbh
08:03<@Rubidium>planetmaker: true, I know where I can get stroopwafel in Nagasaki though!
08:03<Ammler>he, can't compile 0.6 anymore, well TrueBrain it was possible, I know it.
08:03<planetmaker>yes, I know where I can get stroopwaffels here, too. But not Vla.
08:05<@Rubidium>I hope they're not extremely expensive there though :)
08:05<@Rubidium>1.50 for 2 stroopwafels in Nagasaki
08:05<planetmaker>he :-P
08:06<planetmaker>Prices here are somewhat reasonable. Don't recall in detail
08:06<planetmaker>Like what I'd expect for a cookie package of that size
08:07<Ammler>seems like gcc44 errors, why is that so bad to exit the compile?
08:08<@Rubidium>because they're errors?
08:09<Ammler>planetmaker: compiling 0.6
08:09<@Rubidium>if there's an error it's easy to fix though (and only one error)
08:10<Ammler> /home/marcel/svn/openttd/0.6.3/src/fileio.cpp:629: error: invalid conversion from ‘const char*’ to ‘char*’
08:11<Ammler>char *s = strrchr(exe, PATHSEPCHAR);
08:12<Ammler>oh well, not really necessary...
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08:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19148 /trunk/src/string.cpp: -Fix [FS#3627]: [v]seprintf should return the number of added characters excluding '\0' on truncation (adf88)
08:57<SpComb^>the number of added characters?
08:58<@Rubidium>yeah, so ptr += seprintf(ptr, lastof(ptr), ...) works
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09:04<blathijs>Ammler: Hmm, I changed what exactly? My SVN account is matthijs, btw.
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09:23<Ammler>blathijs: I remember it that you did, but it might be something else
09:23<Ammler>"someone" changed the network code, so it wasn't able anymore to join a server with different version string (with -n)
09:24<Ammler>iirc, it was around the time ./configure --revision didn't work
09:33<blathijs>It rings a bell somewhere, not sure if I did any work on that though
09:34<blathijs>Would have been a long time ago, if it was me :)
09:37<planetmaker>hello Belugas :-)
09:41<Belugas>mister planetmaker, i salute ya
09:44<@peter1138>Ammler, 18804?
09:44<@peter1138>(aka, not blathijs)
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09:51<Ammler>peter1138: sounds like it, but not that long ago, blathijs, you were at least involved in the talk that it should be added :-)
09:52<@Rubidium>and what are the effects of r18804? What does it affect?
09:53<Ammler>that rev sounds too new
09:53<Ammler>Rubidium: I know it because since then, we use nomod.diff
09:54<Ammler>where we change first row from $REV to $REV_NR
09:54<@Rubidium>row? column maybe?
09:55<@Rubidium>that code has been added like...
09:55<Ammler>yep, in
09:56<Ammler>I was told, it is better to do that than changing the modified flag ;-)
09:56<Ammler>so you still have the flag set for gamelog
09:57<@Rubidium>the check has been added in like r915
09:57<Ammler>then it was temporarly disabled
09:57<@Rubidium>with norev it was, other than that is has NEVER been disabled
09:57<Ammler>maybe it was the reason --revision didn't work
09:58<Ammler>around r13000
09:58<Ammler>but real clue anymore
09:59<@Rubidium>oh, you mean r14261?
10:00<@peter1138>hmm, i dunno
10:00<@peter1138>and i don't even care :D
10:00<Ammler>I can't test it anymore anyway, too new compiler
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you can probably backport the gcc44 fixes
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10:01<@Rubidium>that's just bs... just compile an older compiler
10:01<@Rubidium>or fracking fix that compile error... how hard can it be to do so?
10:01<Ammler>but the whole work just to prove, TrueBrain is wrong ;-)
10:01<@Rubidium>read: *IF* you CAN NOT fix that compile error, you should NOT be messing with network compatability issues; you're going to make a big mess of it
10:02<Ammler>so you might be right and it never worked and I have something else in my mind.
10:03<Ammler>Rubidium: I don't want to mess with it, I just wanted to check my memory...
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10:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19149 /trunk/src/string.cpp: -Codechange: make our vsnprintf implementation for Windows more POSIX compliant (adf88)
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10:31<blathijs>Hmm, in English, how do you call the place that destroys old cars?
10:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19150 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Fix (r19143): some more locations could use updating
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10:32<blathijs>"Autosloop" in Dutch...
10:33<planetmaker>blathijs, scrapyard? junkyard?
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a "Schrottpresse"?
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>scrapyard is where they are standing, not where they get destroyed
10:34<planetmaker>oh, they're salvaged there.
10:34<blathijs>Ah, junkjard is fine.
10:34<blathijs>I did actually mean the salvaging thing :-)
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11:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19151 /trunk/ (config.lib src/ai/api/ai_changelog.hpp src/fileio.cpp): -Codechange [FS#3625]: Move home directory to a better place in Haiku (jrepan)
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11:54<Belugas>now that was a good one... We have problems with some PINPads while processing EMV (ChipNPin) transactions. And the officials have stated that it's all related to statics
11:54<Belugas>come on...
11:55<Belugas>can you find something even more STUPID??
11:55<@Rubidium>static as in the (C) keyword or as in the electrical phenomenon
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's what it said in their BOFH calendar for today...
11:56<@Rubidium>yeah, that's quite plausible
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12:06<Belugas>electrical phenomenom, Rubidium.
12:07<Belugas>how come it has nevr been triggered by swiping? far more possible than just inserting
12:07<Belugas>or is it somehting known in Europ?
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>he meant the BOFH thing is plausible :p
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12:08<@Rubidium>Belugas: bastard operator from hell
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12:09<@Rubidium>Belugas: why it's triggered is because over time hardware seems to get crappier and crappier
12:10<Belugas>ALL types of EMV pinpads?
12:10<Belugas>THAT makes me VERY suspicious of a lie
12:10<@Rubidium>also contact chips have some sort of 'processing' capability, which means it can be shorted. A magnetic swipe thing can't
12:11<@Rubidium>I'm assuming chips, not the RFID kind
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>in the company i worked for a while, they had a rule: "if you are with a customer, and there's a problem, first blame it on Windows and on SAP."
12:12<+glx>the magnetic thing is rarely used here
12:18<@peter1138>i have a new set of test scripts for another set of accreditation...
12:24<Belugas>yup those cards indeed
12:24<Belugas>poor peter1138
12:25<Belugas>we were deploying a few thousand EMV units to read those cards. but due to some deep freeze problems, the deployment continued, just that the EMV part was deactivated, and only the magnetic part is used
12:26<Belugas>how cool is that...
12:30<OwenS>Belugas: Don't the CC companies no longer offer fraud protection for !EMV transactions?
12:30<@Rubidium>credit card and fraud protection? Right...
12:31<@Rubidium>with their fraudulently high interest rates and such
12:31<@Rubidium>and you giving the card to the waiter to see it back a couple of minutes later with the only thing you need to do is signing
12:31<OwenS>Rubidium: Thats a matter for the banks. I was refering to the retailer, who, in the UK, will not get any compensation if they process a fraudlent card without EMV
12:32<OwenS>Rubidium: Heh, here they always bring the pin pad to you
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12:32<ashb>OwenS: not always
12:32<@Rubidium>ah well, it's long ago I used a credit card
12:32<OwenS>What do you use now?
12:32<+glx>a non credit one ?
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12:33<@Rubidium>a debit card :)
12:33<OwenS>Same network, same fraud protection issues for retailers
12:33<ashb>those are no different here - both are EMV
12:33<OwenS>Oh, and no legal fraud protection for you
12:34<@Rubidium>OwenS: I've NEVER paid without entering my pin with my debit card, although most of the time with the credit card I didn't need a pin (hell... I've even had times I didn't need to sign)
12:34<OwenS>Rubidium: Heh. Here, as I said, retailers won't take them without pin because theres no insurance then
12:35<OwenS>But if you get scammed with a credit card, they're damned good at recovering your money. Banks? Banks don't care
12:37<@orudge>hmm, well, my Dad once had some money taken from his account, apparently via his debit card, and he got it all refunded from the bank
12:37<@peter1138>mmm, wasabi
12:38<OwenS>orudge: It depends entirely on the bank, but they're not required to do anything if your card gets skimmed. They are if it's stolen, but not in other circumstances
12:38<OwenS>Plus with a credit card company you have the leverage that it was their money which was stolen
12:39<Belugas>OwenS, Canada is only starting to deploy EMV. So Magnetic is still there for a good time
12:40<Belugas>and as for the USA, it's not even in the radar
12:40<Belugas>and as for the USA, it's not even in the radar
12:40<OwenS>Belugas: Heh. Barclays are even deploying contactless here now...
12:40<@peter1138>my latest round of accreditation is with barclays, heh
12:41<OwenS>And I know both Barclays and Natwest are giving out personal pin pads for online shopping (Rather than the weak password systems all the other banks use for their 3D-Secure pages)
12:41*Belugas deals with Moneris, Paymentech, Global Payments, Desjardins, FDMS, Hearthland and quite a few more
12:42<Belugas>all same shit of lies
12:42<+glx>I receive a code by SMS for that
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12:42<ashb>OwenS: i bet they aren't interoperable either, so you have to carry *your* reader?
12:42<@peter1138>all the security measures... which appear to be for consumer protection, but are really to protect the banks
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12:44*Belugas nods
12:44*Belugas leaves the office to buy a new lens cap
12:44<OwenS>ashb: They're actually following a standard :p
12:44<ashb>wow. shocking
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>as if "standard" ever meant it was actually compatible :p
12:45<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: They are
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13:04*andythenorth wonders if MB is right
13:04*andythenorth has better things to do, so does them
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13:27*Belugas swears at the cost of a brand on an item that is almost worth nothing
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13:28<Belugas>branless -> 4$ "Canon" -> 17$
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13:30<planetmaker>Belugas, looking for accumulators?
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13:36<Belugas>lens cap
13:36<Belugas>lost mine yesterday
13:36<planetmaker>oh.... :S
13:36<planetmaker>Well. The difference is not worth 10$
13:36<planetmaker>It is a difference, though
13:36<Belugas>apart from the ego ;)
13:37<Belugas>i've seen better looking ones on ebay. branded and far cheaper
13:37<Belugas>so i've got one just for now, like... emergency!
13:37<Belugas>of course
13:38<+tokai>Amazing those default lens caps don't come with some string for security. Annoys me a little bit too :)
13:38<planetmaker>yeah. Not quite understandable.
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13:38*Belugas nods
13:39<+tokai>Or at least some hole so you can connect your own string.
13:39<Belugas>well.. when to think of it... SLR are cameras where you can change lenses
13:39<Belugas>you'll have to detach, attach blabla
13:40<Belugas>would a bit of a pain in the butt to do
13:40<+tokai>You could secure the lens cap directly to the lens body :)
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13:40<+tokai>Dunno how practically that is though :)
13:41<+tokai>Didn't lost any my caps yet, luckily. :)
13:41*tokai knocks on wood
13:42<Belugas>tokai, i've got (so far) two lenses. a 58mm and a 55mm
13:42<Belugas>so... i cannot really do so
13:43*Belugas has a plan for some kind of a pocket in elastic fabrics to hook on the camera strap
13:43<Belugas>ho... and i always carry them with me and i switch them very frequenlty
13:43<Belugas>must be why i kinda lost my 58mm
13:44<+tokai>Start to use filter etc. and you get even more things to take care for :)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19152 /trunk/src/lang/romanian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by tonny
13:45<planetmaker>tokai, yeah... but filters are handled with more care than a cap - which is readily stuffed into a pocket or so
13:46<planetmaker>I wouldn't do it with my filters...
13:46*Belugas nods
13:46<+tokai>Well, true.
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13:46<Belugas>although a USEFULL filter is not used every day
13:46<Belugas>not talking about a UV filter... only there to protect the front lens
13:47<planetmaker>hehe. Yes, I have that also for every lens.
13:47<+tokai>I switch filters regularly... neutral density/ UV/ polarizer... don't like to stack them :)
13:48<Belugas>indeed :)
13:48<+tokai>And it multiplies when your lenses have different filter sizes
13:48<planetmaker>yup :-)
13:48<Belugas>god yes... the nightmare!
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14:01<Belugas>but hey... what a pleasure to switch lenses depending of the situation :D
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14:01*Belugas needs a 100mm macro and a 100-400zoom
14:02<Belugas>mmh... and a big mug of coffee
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14:02<planetmaker>100...400mm :-O
14:02<@peter1138>needs? :)
14:02<Belugas>you'd rather have a 300-800 sigma?
14:02<Belugas>as in...
14:03<planetmaker>Belugas, well... that's the paparazzi class ;-)
14:03<Belugas>it is?
14:03<Belugas>not aware...
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14:04<Belugas>wanted it for birds watching
14:04<aber>of course
14:04<Belugas>yeah :) birds in bikini
14:04<planetmaker>well. 300mm is what I have now at most. It's ok. But yes, sometimes more'd be nice
14:04<planetmaker>but already then it's nearly not possible to follow a bird on the fly with it.
14:05<planetmaker>too small FOV
14:05<planetmaker>but of course it depends upon distance.
14:05<planetmaker>And you want them fast.
14:06<planetmaker>Too small and you'll have too slow shutter. Then it's not worth anything
14:06<planetmaker>at least for birds ;-)
14:06<Belugas>true :)
14:06<Belugas>I've read that it's not really usefull to have anyting below 400mm. 400mm been a minimum
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14:07<Belugas>i guss the guy has a deep pocket to say so
14:07<planetmaker>hehe, probably
14:08<planetmaker>you might go for a teleconverter and less mm on the lens you buy
14:08<planetmaker>but of course... teleconverter is teleconverter. Which is not always positive.
14:09<Belugas>or go for a prime
14:09<Belugas>which is less expensive but... it's a prime :S
14:09<Belugas>therefor, you have to move
14:11<planetmaker>prime = fixed focus?
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14:13<planetmaker>yo. 400mm, 1:2.8 USM: 8100€.
14:14<planetmaker>100...400mm, 1:4.5-5.6: USM: 1600€
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14:17<@peter1138>quite expensive
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14:20<Belugas>Canon EF 400mm F/5.6L USM
14:20<Belugas>a bit less expensive, by far :)
14:21<Belugas>of course, 2.8 would be incredible.. but at what price...
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14:27<Belugas>peter1138, unfortunately, in the SLR world, EVERYTHING is expensive
14:27<Belugas>even more when you are using BRANDED items :S
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14:31<+tokai>Belugas: I just got a 20 EUR adapter which allows to connect lens in reverse position instead a almost 1000 EUR macro lens :) If you do it just for hobby that serves pretty well already. :)
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14:33<Belugas>yeah! I've heard about those!
14:33<Belugas>do they work great?
14:34<Belugas>got some samples?
14:34<+tokai>No autofocus and adjusting aperture can be tricky... but you can make incredible pictures too.
14:34<+tokai>You actually get higher than 1:1
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14:35<+tokai>Belugas: some older german text:
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14:36<Wolf01>hello :D
14:37<Belugas>hey Wolf01
14:37<+tokai>Belugas: the main problem is that it's not as comfortable to use than a dedicated lens, but it's a lot cheaper. If you don't mind experimenting a bit it's quite some fun too :)
14:37<planetmaker>tokai: yeah, such stuff works surprisingly well
14:37<Belugas>how do you adjust aperture?
14:37<planetmaker>you need a manual lense for that
14:37<Belugas>you can't i image
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14:38<+tokai>Belugas: either a manual lens or you set aperture before reversion objective
14:39<planetmaker>tokai: I think that canon has open aperture usually. And only stops down when you ask it to or when it takes the image
14:39<+tokai>AV mode, set aperture... then press this little button at the side of camera (which blends down) and keep it pressed while disconnecting the lens, then it will get stuck on configured aperture
14:39<planetmaker>might work
14:39<planetmaker>not sure how well they like it, though ;-)
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14:40<Belugas>but but but... until the body triggers the shot, the aperture is wide open
14:40<+tokai>getting some old manual lens with right filter ring size is probably smarter choice
14:40<+tokai>(doesn't have to be a Canon lens... maybe some old Zeiss M42 lens.. you can get them for few bucks from eBay)
14:41<Belugas>tokai, you're DOF preview would do the trick
14:41*tokai is currently looking for one
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14:41<+tokai> <- ordered one of those very recently :)
14:42<+tokai>Hopefully will arrive tomorrow.
14:43<Belugas>nice :)
14:43<Belugas>let me know about it
14:43<+tokai>Will do :)
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14:50<SpComb^>hmm, how do I vote for the title game?
14:50<SpComb^>seems a little difficult now that Rubidium dropped his screenshots
14:50-!-Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
14:51<@Rubidium>I dropped the screenshots?
14:51<SpComb^>the numbered series of saves/screenshots
14:51<@Rubidium> <- there they are
14:52<SpComb^>404 for me
14:52<frosch123>bye DorpsGek
14:52<SpComb^>and very slow to load
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14:53<zephyris>404'd for me too...
14:53<aber>404 - Not Found Safari Version 4.0.4
14:53<SpComb^>same for `curl -4` as well
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15:03<@Rubidium>hmm, whole ~devs is 'broken'
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15:09<@Rubidium>there... ~devs should work again
15:09<zephyris>work'd for me...
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15:16<planetmaker>yup, here, too
15:17<zephyris>2560x1600 is pretty epic sized!
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15:20<SpComb^>1280x1024 is probably the best one to view
15:21<@Rubidium>it depends on your playing preferences
15:21<zephyris>People will always be a bit biased to their native resolution :)
15:23<SpComb^>best fits my idea of a standard resolution
15:24<SpComb^>but I guess 4:3 displays are dying out, so it's not that common, really
15:24<frosch123>SpComb^: actually looking at the saves is best
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15:30<Eddi|zuHause>1280x1024 isn't actually 4:3
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15:30<@Rubidium>silence! :)
15:30<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: It's 5:4!
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: yes, i know
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know why they made it so difficult to run 1280x960
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause>at least not all graphics cards i had supported that mode...
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>let alone some games which only have a handful of fixed resolutions...
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15:33<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... doesn't bother me anymore since i have 1680x1050
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>although i don't manage to get dosbox to keep a 4:3 aspect ratio on full screen...
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15:37<frosch123>btw. tb, you can let him rejoin now
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15:39<@Rubidium>rejoin who?
15:39<@Rubidium>oh :) you mean the thing I killed a while ago?
15:39<frosch123>you killed him :o
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15:49<SpComb^>frosch123: too much effort to load the .sav's with the menu in place
15:50<frosch123>why is the menu important?
15:51<SpComb^>it covers stuff up
15:51<frosch123>but different stuff
15:51<frosch123>you can even move it
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15:58<planetmaker>hm... the overlay sprite which highlights reserved tracks in depots is 90° rotated. In both, OpenGFX and original base set
15:58<planetmaker>any pointers where I should look for the cause?
15:58<frosch123>the sprite is the same as for regular track
15:59<frosch123>so DrawTile_Track
15:59<planetmaker>on normal tracks it's ok
16:00<frosch123>and it is not rotated
16:00<frosch123>it is missing on direction
16:00<planetmaker>you found it?
16:00<frosch123>hmm, maybe that is intentional for the north directions
16:00<frosch123>i tested it :p
16:01<frosch123>SW != y
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16:03<planetmaker>I don't quite follow
16:03<Wolf01>uhm... I start OTTD with -c myconfig.cfg, each time the game creates a new cfg in the folder, for example: openttd_(11).new
16:04<frosch123>rail_cmd.cpp:2206 and 2207
16:04<planetmaker>oh. vice versa
16:05<planetmaker>I guess you don't need a diff for that now :-)
16:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19153 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#pm](r19056): PBS reservation was drawn incorrectly for depots.
16:08<frosch123>so, invisble depots draw default track, but no newrail overlays
16:08<planetmaker>hm. feature request ;-)
16:09-!-planetmaker is now known as pm
16:09<@SmatZ>@fs pm
16:09<@SmatZ>hmm 404
16:09-!-pm is now known as planetmaker
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>man... ship bridges always look like escher paintings to me...
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16:12<planetmaker>frosch123: should I make a FS entry for "default tracks are drawn in invisible depots instead of overlay"?
16:13<@SmatZ>overlay? in trunk?
16:13<planetmaker>well... r19145. Has it, not?
16:14<frosch123> <- something like that?
16:14<@SmatZ>planetmaker: everything is possible :) I didn't know it's "reality" now :)
16:14<frosch123>(the coding style interpretation is somewhat from thin air)
16:15<@SmatZ>nah it's fine ;)
16:15<planetmaker>:-D @ SmatZ :-)
16:16<planetmaker>Unfortunately I don't have right now a track set at hand...
16:16<planetmaker>But... There's one new since yesterday on the devzone...
16:17-!-Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
16:18<planetmaker>let's install nutracks.grf :-)
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>what's a nut rack?
16:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19154 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Invisible depots draw the track, so also draw the overlays.
16:19<planetmaker>a cupboard with many different kinds of nuts
16:20<planetmaker>as opposed to the bol[t/d]rack :-P
16:20<Prof_Frink>All you need are rock 5s.
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16:26<planetmaker>oh oh. Another feature request: the tile info should definitely report which kind of rail is layed on a tile
16:27<frosch123>the tileinfo shows only unimportant stuff
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16:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19155 /branches/1.0/ (32 files in 4 dirs):
16:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
16:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Invisible depots draw the track, so also draw the overlays (r19154)
16:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: PBS reservation was drawn incorrectly for depots (r19153)
16:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: Move home directory to a better place in Haiku [FS#3625] (r19151)
16:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [v]seprintf should return the number of added characters excluding '\0' on truncation [FS#3627] (r19149, r19148)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>so... who is testing the 1.0-only fix when it's not in the nightlies, and no new beta or rc is released?
16:31<@SmatZ>that fix can't break anything
16:32<frosch123>never say never :)
16:32<@SmatZ>unless code is extremely broken now :-p
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16:32<frosch123>but actually, if we do not release 1.0 we would also not have to test it
16:34<planetmaker>frosch123: the overlay for reserved tracks now works for me for the depots where I can see the entry. But not for the other two. If I use new rail types
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16:34<planetmaker>and invisible depots
16:34<planetmaker>shall I upload to FS test game and grfs?
16:35<frosch123>are you using 19153 or 19154?
16:35<planetmaker>oh... wait. nvm me.
16:35<planetmaker>started the binary from the wrong folder :S
16:36<planetmaker>so... neither.
16:36<frosch123>hmm, i should put that on my list.
16:38<frosch123>everytime some workmate mumbles something about "why does that still not work", another one asks "saved? compiled? restarted?"
16:38<planetmaker>good questions actually
16:38<frosch123>the chance is usually not that bad :p
16:38<@SmatZ>hehe :)
16:39<@SmatZ>quite often I find myself running wrong binary, being in wrong directory or different shell window :-p
16:39<__ln__>is there some IDE where you can compile without saving?
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16:39<planetmaker>SmatZ: yeah... that happend...
16:39<@SmatZ>planetmaker: yeah :)
16:40<planetmaker>1 xterm is never enough ;-)
16:40<@SmatZ>when I get that suspicion, I deliberately do some syntax error
16:40<@SmatZ>if it compiles and runs fine, then there's something wrong :)
16:41<frosch123>__ln__: if you edit in multiple projects in parallel there is nothing worse than an ide which relies no project files
16:43<fonsinchen>In those OnTick_XY functions:
16:43<aber>__ln__: emacs :)
16:43<fonsinchen>if ((_tick_counter + t->index) % XYZ == 0) ...
16:43<fonsinchen>this is not optimal
16:43<fonsinchen>you can as well do _tick_counter % XYZ and then repeatedly add XYZ and check if that's a valid ID
16:44<fonsinchen>much cheaper, but has the same effect
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16:45<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: how about t->index == XYZ
16:45<@Rubidium>hmm, never mind :)
16:46<fonsinchen>Each occurence by itself probably is negligible, but it happens at least at OnTick_Town and OnTick_Station and probably in other places, too.
16:49<fonsinchen>OK, actually in OnTick_Station it cannot be avoided. My bad.
16:52<planetmaker>ok, all is fine with the overlays, frosch123 :-). Thanks a bunch
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17:02<@SmatZ>it could be avoided if items stored something like
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17:28<Belugas>night all
17:28<@Rubidium>night Belugas
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17:32<planetmaker>night Belugas
17:32<planetmaker>night all
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18:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19156 /branches/1.0/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.0] -Prepare: for 1.0.0-RC1
18:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19157 /tags/1.0.0-RC1/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Release: 1.0.0-RC1
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18:15<IPG>RC1! :D
18:17<@Rubidium>still no servers :(
18:17*Sacro flags Arch out of date
18:18<@Rubidium>oh blathijs... where art thou?! :)
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18:33<Terkhen>good night :)
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18:35<__ln__>could be better
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18:51-!-Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.5, 1.0.0-RC1 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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19:15<aber>1.0.0-RC1/src/ai/ai_config.cpp:19: error: invalid use of incomplete type ‘struct AIConfig’
19:15<aber>1.0.0-RC1/src/ai/../settings_type.h:387: error: forward declaration of ‘struct AIConfig’
19:16<@Rubidium>what configure flags are you using?
19:17<aber>./configure --enable-universal --static-icu
19:18<@Rubidium>hmm, then I have no clue
19:18<FauxFaux>Surely you mean "What odd compiler or compiler options are you using"?
19:19<@Rubidium>although the error seems totally wrong to me; ai_config.cpp includes ai_config.hpp that defines AIConfig
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19:22<@SmatZ>Rubidium: it includes settings_type.h before ai_config.hpp
19:22<@Rubidium>SmatZ: nevertheless, AIConfig should be defined at that point (as per inclusion of ai_config.hpp)
19:23<aber>wait, maybe i did something stupid...
19:23<@SmatZ>Rubidium: indeed it looks strange
19:24<@Rubidium>unless Apple is using AIConfig in their APIs now
19:24<@Rubidium>although then you'd probably get another error
19:24<@SmatZ>wouldn't be for the first time
19:25<@Rubidium>maybe they define AI_CONFIG_H
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19:25<@Rubidium>same thing :)
19:26<@SmatZ>--static-icu compiles fine for me
19:26<@SmatZ>I am PC
19:26<@SmatZ>:-P @ aber
19:27<@Rubidium>SmatZ: no, you are Linux... "I am PC" implies Windows
19:27<@SmatZ>hehe :)
19:27<@SmatZ>sad, but true
19:29<@Rubidium>nevertheless, nothing has changed in ai_config.* not settings_type.h since I've last ran trunk through my OSX compiler
19:29<@SmatZ>"it worked in the past" doesn't help much in OSX world
19:30<@Rubidium>and "it works in my self-compiled-from-apple-sources-with-patches-to-make-it-actually-compile compiler" isn't work anything...
19:30<@SmatZ>yeah :(
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19:48<aber>I'm a mac and i compiled OpenTTD (4 times)
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19:49<@Rubidium>I'm a Linux and I compiled a compiler that makes Mac binaries for OpenTTD dozens of times
19:49<@Rubidium>too bad that compiler is kinda slow
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19:51<Eddi|zuHause>better slow than a mac :p
19:53<@Rubidium>what annoys me most is that they messed around with keyboard 'shortcuts'
19:53<@Rubidium>e.g. using screen + irssi via ssh with apple's terminal is really annoying (for me)
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that means
19:53<@Rubidium>whereas the same with putty on windows works just like it does here
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19:59<aber>like the Windows key is control or something?
20:01<@Rubidium>for some reason pagedown/pageup forces scrolls the console instead of sending the keycode, so you need pagedown/up with some other key to make it behave as if you were using it in a text editor
20:02<@Rubidium>and something was up with alt too
20:02<ashb>Rubidium: the pgup behaviour can be adjusted in prefs
20:03<ashb>as can alt. "Use option as meta key"
20:03<PeterT_>Rubidium, what is "Patch testing in CF"?
20:03<PeterT_>what does "CF" stand for?
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>compile farm
20:03<PeterT_>thank you
20:03<@Rubidium>ashb: ofcourse it can be changed, but who am I to change the settings of someone else's mac?
20:04<ashb>a joker? :)
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: install linux on it ;)
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>if you set up the right desktop skins, the person might never notice :)
20:05<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nah, point-and-drool would probably not work anymore, as would their i<whatever>
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm... what can be done to make a (slow) system more responsive while copying large files?
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>i tried changing the scheduler, but that doesn't seem to have an effect
20:07<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ionice?
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i never figured out how to use that
20:07<@Rubidium>ionice -c 3 -p <pid> (makes it use idle)
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>and especially make that apply to all copying processes automatically...
20:08<OwenS>Incidentally, heard of how slow the scheduler is in Linux kernels < 2.6.32? Apparently theyve fixed a number of bugs which half the runtime of x264 by half, which is very impressive considering x264 is utterly CPU bound
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i can't update the kernel
20:09<kd5pbo>Eddi|zuHause: why not?
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>ati driver with old card
20:09<@Rubidium>OwenS: lots and lots can be won by reducing cache pressure
20:09<kd5pbo>Eddi|zuHause: Ah.
20:10<OwenS>Rubidium: My understanding is just lots of suboptimal decisions in the beast that is CFS.
20:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19158 /trunk/src/string.cpp: -Fix (r19149): MSVC 64 bits compile warning
20:10<PeterT_>Where do you get reports for warnings like this?
20:10<+glx>CF logs
20:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19159 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r19151): configure gave a warning about a broken expression
20:11<PeterT_>are those available online?
20:11<+glx>yes, with the binaries and pdb
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20:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so, how do i ionice all instances of dolphin that i start by any means possible from now until forever, without thinking about it?
20:13<@Rubidium>no clue
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20:18<Eddi|zuHause>about the ati driver... apparently they managed to patch the old driver to work with new kernels, but not with new x servers, so i can't just run a dist upgrade
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>and the last time i tried mixing distributions it went horribly wrong...
20:19<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Ouch. Get a new graphics card? :p
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: not for this computer...
20:19<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: dist-upgrade as in apt-get?
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: as in "zypper dup"
20:20<@Rubidium>if so: X in debian unstable/testing is too new for ATI's drivers
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i said...
20:21<@Rubidium>well, old driver on new X != new driver on new X
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, it doesn't work...
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>and the radeon driver is useless...
20:22<@Rubidium>at least not better than ATI's driver
20:22<aber>Nvidia the way it's meant to be played
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>no, for the cases i tested, it is really unusable
20:23<@Rubidium>I prefer Intel for GPU :)
20:24<Wizzleby>exactly what s the definition of 'old' savegames that building without liblzo2 will render incompatible?
20:24<Wizzleby>like, before N.N.N
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>Wizzleby: something around 0.3, i believe
20:25<Wizzleby>Eddi|zuHause: wow, *really* old then :)
20:25<OwenS>Rubidium: I hate Intel GPUs. Coding apps which work on them is a nighmare
20:26<@Rubidium>IIRC even before 0.2 :)
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if the title game is affected
20:26<@Rubidium>OwenS: but the linux driver is far superior (and I can't be bothered by apps that use the GPU)
20:26<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it isn't
20:26<Chrill>old original TT savegames doesn't run in OpenTTd, right?
20:26<@Rubidium>Chrill: they can be loaded
20:27<OwenS>Rubidium: To nVIDIA's? Nah. And nVIDIA's has great H.264/VC-1/MPEG-2 acceleration as well
20:27<@Rubidium>OwenS: yet binary blobs and such
20:27<OwenS>So? They work :P
20:28<OwenS>And at least, unlike Intel, they don't go "Were going to arbitrarily cap support at OpenGL 1.4 for these cards"...
20:28<@Rubidium>the fact that Intel's drivers are IN the kernel tree says quite a lot about their quality
20:28<thingwath>Recent intel driver can, at least, provide very reliable suspend & resume. Beat that. :)
20:28<OwenS>Rubidium: The percentage of the driver which is in the kernel is between 1 and 5% ;-)
20:29<@Rubidium>OwenS: yet the percentage of bugs I can report with the nvidia/ati driver is 0
20:30<@Rubidium>aber: 1.0.0-RC1 compiles fine with the compiler from the compile farm
20:30<OwenS>Rubidium: I've never had a crash I could attribute to nVIDIA. In fact, most of the time I've experienced crashes, it's been because some distro decided to load nv or noveau, both of which crash my machine...
20:30<aber>Rubidium: Don't worry. i did something stupid.
20:31<aber>compiles fine...
20:31<thingwath>OwenS: Anyway, what you mean by 1 to 5%? i915 drm part in the kernel is almost as large as intel X driver.
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>since when is "doesn't crash" a criterium for "not a bug"?
20:31<OwenS>thingwath: 90% of the driver is libGL
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20:32<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: The track record for reliability is significantly higher for me than with the open source alternatives. Which crash 100% of the time, 100% reproducably on my hardware...
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20:40<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if somebody has an AGP graphocs card that os supported by the mew drovers amd os wprth öess tham the value of my entire computer...
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20:40<aber>sleepy time?
20:41<kd5pbo>Or too much beer.
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20:41<Eddi|zuHause>offset keyboard
20:41<kd5pbo>Or that.
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>just shift some right hand characters by one ;)
20:48<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Whats the value of your computer?
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21:00<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: if you don't count the monitor and the extra hard drivesm, negligible
21:02<SpComb^>hmm.. trying to track cargodist and do builds off the 1.0 branch isn't an idea that's going to work very well, I presume
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21:56*SpComb^ goes to spy on the german forums again
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22:19<SpComb^>mass confusing as usual
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23:13<roboboy>does make bundle automatically create a Win32 bundle if no parameters are specified?
23:23<SpComb^>perhaps read the makefile and find out, it isn't very complicated
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23:35<DaleStan>planetmaker: Do we really need an Action2Railtypes page? Beyond changing all instances of 0B to 10 and all instances of "cargo" to "railtype", how does it differ from Action2Cargos?
23:36<DaleStan>Oh. And the version availability comment.
23:40<DaleStan>planetmaker: Reading through it some more: Why is it not recommended to define several sets of sprites in a single action 1 and then attach each set to a separate action2? ("it's recommended to use<loadtypes> = 00 00") And must it be documented as legal to have any nument1/nument2 other than 00 00? If so, why?
---Logclosed Thu Feb 18 00:00:25 2010