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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-04-15

---Logopened Thu Apr 15 00:00:10 2010
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03:30<terinjokes>dihedral: /O\
03:31<dihedral>hi... erm... do i know you? :-P
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03:41<TrueBrain>you already forgot about last night?
03:46<planetmaker>easy come, easy go, you know? ;-)
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03:57<dihedral>TrueBrain: i would NEVER forget YOU :-P
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04:02<planetmaker>please spare us the details ;-)
04:03<dihedral>he asked for it!
04:11<welshdragon>no you
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04:23<Mazur>Morning, all.
04:24<KloBass>good mourning
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04:57<lennard>ping TrueBrain (or Rubidium, I think?)
04:58<lennard>the mirror will go offline for a few hours starting tomorrow evening, 17:00 dutch time
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05:12<KloBass>one question how to open cheat menu in linux? ctrl+alt+c and ctrl+alt+c+win does not work :(
05:14<welshdragon>it should
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05:15<@Darkvater>a bit late...
05:16<@Darkvater>but congratulations with 1.0.0!!!!
05:20<dihedral>\o/ Darkvater
05:20<dihedral>why do i always have to think of dilbert when i see Darkvater??
05:21<@Darkvater>hihi, my dear, dear avatar :D
05:23<@Darkvater>how is everyone doing?
05:23<dihedral><- is doing ok
05:23<dihedral><- is looking for some good hosting provider!
05:24<@Darkvater>^ likes to use <-
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05:26<dihedral>how are you btw?
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05:27<dihedral>i don't want to fork out 50 EUR / Month for my own root server
05:27<dihedral>and i hate the limites some hosters impose with virtuozo
05:28<@Rubidium>then what do you want?
05:28<@peter1138>they're called "root" servers now?
05:29<dihedral>yeah :-(
05:29<dihedral>root server or dedicated server ^^
05:29<@Rubidium>hi Darkvater, you're the second of the "old devs" to show up. Although, Bjarni joining and leaving immediately counts as "showing up"
05:29<@Darkvater>dihedral: doing ok. will have to look for a new job in the next few months
05:29<lennard>if you want cheap, you go to a cheap virtual machine hoster in us or de
05:29<@Darkvater>Rubidium: *giggle* bjarni
05:29<lennard>if you want dedicated, you cant get cheap :P
05:29<dihedral>Darkvater: you are in the UK right?
05:29<@Darkvater>I am?
05:29<dihedral>i thought you were :-P
05:29<@Darkvater>lemme check
05:30<Noldo>cheapest in finland seem to be around 24 e/kk
05:30<dihedral>else i would have known a company :-D
05:30<@Darkvater>although it sounds nice. I'm not too attached to NL
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05:30<dihedral>perhaps you might like
05:30<@Rubidium>Darkvater: "United Kingdom of the Netherlands"
05:30<paul>hi everyone
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05:31<dihedral>two little dickybirds sitting on a wall......
05:31<dihedral>one named peter ond named.... ?
05:32<paul_>i wouldnt know :p
05:32<@Darkvater>dihedral: don't see any job pages
05:33<@Darkvater>meh, bbs
05:34<@Rubidium>Darkvater: yeah, sadly enough we find surprises from Bjarni every few weeks :(
05:35<paul_>maybe you guys can point me into the right direction :)
05:35<__ln__>the whole effort Bjarni has put into OTTD has been an evil, secret plot to plant surprises for Rubidium.
05:36<paul_>i am trying to setup an openttd server ... with some NewGRF ... but everytime a client connects and trys to download the newGRF content it stalls
05:36<paul_>erm ... the newGRF download stalls
05:36<__ln__>hello sir Darkvater
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05:39<dihedral>it's a nifty product, and they have some money-pooping investers (at least that was the looks like 4 years ago) :P
05:41<@Darkvater>Rubidium, __ln__ : the whole of bjarni was a disaster. I always knew Apple-fans were evil. this is proof!
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05:42<@Darkvater>dihedral: I'm blind...
05:43<@Darkvater>dihedral: sounds.... interesting. but I'm not really into databases and just trying to quit programming
05:43<@Darkvater>it's nice, but 40h/w is taking away all the fun
05:44<@Rubidium>Darkvater: yeah, such gems as CVE-2009-4007
05:45<@Darkvater>Unspecified vulnerability in the NormaliseTrainConsist function in src/train_cmd.cpp in OpenTTD before 0.7.5-RC1 allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service (daemon crash) via certain game actions involving a wagon and a dual-headed engine.
05:46<@Darkvater>bjarni, the bane of all developers!
05:46<@peter1138>but nobody else spotted it either
05:46<dihedral>Darkvater: was just an idea - i still have personal contacts to them ^^
05:47<__ln__>peter1138: because Bjarni covered it up so well
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06:02<__ln__>hmm, all air traffic in Britain, Norway and Denmark stopped
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06:05<@Darkvater>\o/ iceland
06:06<Forked>I'm thinking Iceland should be held responsible and pay for what is lost
06:07<Forked>seeing how they are already swimming in money :)
06:07<__ln__>Forked: would you accept fish as payment?
06:07<Forked>if the people there are to be blamed and pay for the mess a few people made.. why not being made to pay for what mother nature does as well
06:09<Forked>__ln__: pretty sure we have enough fish here in .no :)
06:09<__ln__>Forked: too bad since fish is all they have atm
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>they have geothermal energy!
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06:10<dihedral>just hope they dont throw all the fish into the vulcano and send you the ashes that way :-P
06:11<dihedral>might be a smelly thing :-P
06:11<dihedral>fishy ashes :-P
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>ashes don't smell...
06:12<paul_>please can someone enlighten me ... i am trying to setup an openttd server ... but the clients cant download the newGRF content ... any ideas?
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>the client's don't download the newgrf content from you, they download from the centralized download server
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06:14<dihedral>paul_: newgrf content is not downloaded from your sever!
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>and anything that's not uploaded there, can't be downloaded
06:14<dihedral>newgrf's must be those from the content server, if you want them to be able to download them automatically
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06:15<paul_>hmm i got them myself through the ingame content downloader ... so they should on the content server
06:15<paul_>the content download server is the bananas list?
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06:17<dihedral>other option is that they are just trying to connect to your server, without trying to get the newgrfs first
06:18<paul_>i got server up ... and i am trying to connect myself
06:18<paul_>(from a second computer)
06:18<paul_>i find the server an click on NewGRF Settings
06:19<paul_>it lists me the used NewGRF ... the i go on Find missing content online
06:20<paul_>select all ... download
06:20<paul_>i get the download window ... 0B of 1.22 MiB downloaded ... and nothing more happens
06:20<paul_>it stalls at 0
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06:24<paul_>the ip is port 3979 .. which is the default .. if anyone wants to try
06:24<dihedral>paul_: which version?
06:24<paul_>openttd version?
06:25<dihedral>how long did you wait for the download to start?
06:25<paul_>hmm still waiting
06:26<amalloy>can someone help me with a general infrastructure question? i've looked at several of the junctions on the wiki, and i have a reasonable grasp of how to build junctions; but it seems like overkill to build a huge junction for each station i want to put next to the mainline. what's a more lightweight way to let trains in and out of a station?
06:26<@peter1138>well content download comes from the central servers, not your own
06:26<@Rubidium>it works for me (tm)
06:26<@Rubidium>paul_: what does redirect you to?
06:27<paul_>Rubidium: to
06:28<@Rubidium>paul_: sounds like a firewall is disallowing OpenTTD to connect to that server
06:29<paul_>well i am behind a nat router ... never hat problems with that ... i can download newGRF content if i connect to other servers ... actually let me check that (worked yesterday)
06:29<plantain>hmm, are the tar files in .openttd/content_download/ meant to be extracted by openttd?
06:30<plantain>I've download a whole lot of AI's and maps, but they all fail to execute with "dbg: [misc] [squirrel] Failed to compile '/home/plantain/.openttd/content_download/ai/NoCAB-2.0.4.tar/nocab-2.0.4/main.nut'
06:30<Hirundo>amalloy: Generally, simple splits and combinations thereof suffice 90% of the time
06:30<plantain>or alternatively "dbg: [ai] [1] [S] Error /home/plantain/.openttd/content_download/ai/library/Pathfinder.Road-3.tar/pathfinder.road.3/main.nut:257/43: expected ')'
06:31<@Rubidium>i.e. you're zlib is "broken"
06:31<paul_>Rubidium: ahh ok doesnt work anymore either ... ok now i got something i can work with :)
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06:44<@peter1138>is there any upstream report on that issue?
06:45<planetmaker>smatZ wanted to look into it and report it upstream if he comes to the conclusion that it is a real zlib issue
06:45<planetmaker>he advised me against reporting it already
06:45<@peter1138>reporting eof when it's not eof seems fairly blatantly a problem
06:46<planetmaker>dunno if he did already. Maybe he did :-)
06:46<@Rubidium>don't know; you need to be member of their mailing list before checking the logs and it's unclear whether there's a bug tracker and if so, where it is
06:46<planetmaker>well, it's possible to 'just' e-mail them. They're usually responsive.
06:53<paul_>Rubidium: thx for the help ... i downloaded the newGRF on that client manually and it works
06:53<paul_>the client btw is a mac os x too ...
06:54<paul_>but i have no idea why the ingame content downloader doesnt work anymore ...
06:55<planetmaker>paul_, because of your zlib then most probably
06:56<planetmaker>you updated zlib via macports, got version 1.2.4 - and that breaks current trunk
06:56<planetmaker>either you use the patch as attached to FS#3753 or you downgrade your zlib
06:57<paul_>hmm but i didnt change anything (no new compiles or updates) since it worked
06:59<paul_>uhhh wait i compiled it without liblzo2
07:00<planetmaker>that doesn't matter
07:02<planetmaker>zlib != liblzo2
07:02<amalloy>how can i tell how expensive something will be before i do it? i tried placing some electric rail and blew through my whole initial loan in like ten seconds
07:03<planetmaker>amalloy, try shit+action
07:05<paul_>planetmaker: hm the zlib i have installed is 1.2.3
07:06<planetmaker>which of the 10 different 1.2.3?
07:12<paul_>hmm how can i tell?
07:13<@Rubidium>that's the nice part... you usually can't
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>by staring at it until it loses its contenance, then it splurts out all the answers
07:13<planetmaker>Rubidium, macports allows to display the exact version
07:13<planetmaker>And even switch in between with a one-line command
07:14<planetmaker>but I don't recall the exact command
07:15<planetmaker>provided that all those versions have been ported, of course.
07:15<paul_>hmm the header is of no use? e.g. zlib.h
07:15<planetmaker>something maybe like port search zlib
07:16<planetmaker>or port list zlib
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>all commands are one line :p
07:16<planetmaker>or port active zlib
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>(provided they stay below 32k ;))
07:16<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that depends upon the shell, I'd say ;-)
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>likely ;)
07:17<paul_>hmm something like fink list zlib ?ß
07:18<paul_>hmm something like "fink list zlib"?
07:18<planetmaker>fink != macports :-)
07:18<planetmaker>I dunno about fink
07:18<paul_>yes .. but i dont have no command named "port"
07:18<ashb>fink and macports both have fail
07:18<ashb>use homebrew
07:18<paul_>so i guess i dont have macport
07:19<@Darkvater>did celestar ever return?
07:19<planetmaker>ever: yes. Recently: no
07:20<planetmaker>@seen Celestar
07:20<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Celestar> work cals
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07:20<planetmaker>more recent than I thought ;-)
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07:20<@Darkvater>@seen Darkvater
07:20<@DorpsGek>Darkvater: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 30 seconds ago: <Darkvater> hehe
07:20<@Darkvater>eh, not what I was expecting
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07:30<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of bjarni:
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07:32<@peter1138>@seen bjarni
07:32<@DorpsGek>peter1138: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 7 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Bjarni> <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
07:32<@peter1138>ah, typical bjarni, just posting links
07:35<OwenS>The amount of times people have asked when Bjarni was last seen is... silly
07:35<@peter1138>@seen tron
07:35<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen tron.
07:35<@peter1138>@seen hackykid
07:35<@DorpsGek>peter1138: hackykid was last seen in #openttd 6 weeks, 1 day, 2 hours, 15 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Hackykid> hi peter1138
07:37<@Darkvater>he, tron
07:38<@Darkvater>good ol' days :)
07:46<@Rubidium>OwenS: that happens with all those mac fanboys that are sad there isn't an official Mac OS X port anymore
07:47<dihedral>they can install linux on their mac
07:47*dihedral hides
07:47<@Rubidium>but Linux isn't all point'n'drool
07:48<dihedral>can be
07:49<dihedral>depends what makes you drool
07:49<ashb>dihedral: the main argument against X11 on a mac is same argument against cygwin: it doesn't fit in with the rest of the OS
07:50<OwenS>ashb, who said X11? He said Linux
07:50<dihedral>i was not talking about installing x11 in os x ^^
07:50<ashb>oh dual boot. good point
07:50<OwenS>Nah, single boot
07:50<dihedral>i was not talking about dual boot
07:50<Noldo>ditch the mac!
07:50<ashb>well if you are going to install linux may as well install windows as well for playing other games too ^__^
07:50<@peter1138>dihedral was talking about replacing a shitty OS with a slightly better OS
07:50<dihedral>hehe - OwenS seems to understand me very well
07:51*Rubidium loves dualboot... memtest and linux
07:51<OwenS>Rubidium, whats the boot ratio between them?
07:51<dihedral>peter1138: you consider windows as good as you like - it suits users ^^
07:51<@Rubidium>0 to lots
07:51<@peter1138>i what?
07:52<@peter1138>no, i mean i don't understand what you're trying to say
07:52<dihedral>i was calling you a 'user'
07:52<@Rubidium>that is owned by apple, right?
07:53<@peter1138>dihedral, "you consider windows as good as you like"? what do you mean there?
07:53<dihedral>feel free to consider windows as good an os as you like??
07:54<dihedral>enjoy the 'safty' of windows?
07:54<@peter1138>why me?
07:54<@Rubidium>I think the point peter1138 is trying to make is that he didn't mean Windows as "a slightly better OS"
07:54<dihedral>13:50 <@peter1138> dihedral was talking about replacing a shitty OS with a slightly better OSB[B[B
07:55<@peter1138>i.e. OS X with Linux
07:55<planetmaker><ashb> dihedral: the main argument against X11 on a mac is same argument against cygwin: it doesn't fit in with the rest of the OS <-- the main argument against SDL on mac is that it's somewhat severely broken. Not that it doesn't blend
07:56<ashb>if you say so - only used it very breifly
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07:57<planetmaker>ashb, I wrote the bug report. I tested it
07:57<planetmaker>not briefly actually
07:57<planetmaker>just to prove the point, though ;-)
07:57<ashb>SDL on mac is broken, or SDL+OTDD on mac is broken?
07:57<planetmaker>the latter
07:57<ashb>that doesn't say anything about SDL then
07:58<ashb>or OSX
07:58<planetmaker>well. I've been using X11 for other things on OSX. That works quite well.
07:58<planetmaker>But I wouldn't call it flawless ;-)
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08:00<@peter1138>what was up with SDL+OTTD on OS X?
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08:02<planetmaker>peter1138, look at flyspray...
08:02*planetmaker neither
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08:04<planetmaker>but graphics were as funny as the test blitter.
08:05<planetmaker>and a number of additional issues
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08:11<Eddi|zuHause>the debug blitter is cool ;)
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08:28<planetmaker>and why should we click those links?
08:28<planetmaker>any specially crafted trojans and keyloggers out there? Or just viagra?
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08:29<Jolteon>Avast is currently screaming RED ALERT FFFFFUUUCCCKKKK.
08:29<Jolteon>But it terminated the connection, so nothing bad happened :>
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>you clicked a link in IRC... how can that be any less than a RED ALERT!!?
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08:32<Jolteon>eddi: usually it's just trojan warnings and a block of things that page linked to.
08:32<Jolteon>not a full page block.
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08:46<Cadde>Ammler: I would be forever grateful if you could compile a preset for me. (
08:48<Ammler>Cadde: he, I can add, but you can also combine the grfs, for example use the existing presets grf and change up to 8 costs with the mod grf
08:48<Cadde>8 isn't enough :D
08:49<Cadde>Thats why i ask
08:49<Cadde>Not even with luuk's hard preset if i get the ods file right
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08:50<Ammler>and the default (mine)?
08:51<Cadde>For starters i need to use at least 6 for running cost modification
08:51<Cadde>Because i wanna play with daylength patch and it doesn't do running costs
08:51<Ammler>well, it is easy to add it, you prepared it quite good...
08:52<Cadde>I try my best ;)
08:52<Ammler>I might do it tonight sometime...
08:52<Cadde>Ok, whenever you have the spare time.
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08:58<TrueBrain>tnx lennard, will keep it in mind
08:59<lennard>ah, good, response, now I get to not bother about it anymore :P
08:59<TrueBrain>response within 4 hours, not bad, if I say so myself :)
09:00<+glx>could be slower ;)
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09:04<lennard>TrueBrain: correct, especially via such a medium as IRC :P
09:04<lennard>all non-official and volatile and stuff :P
09:06<Cadde>My IRC beeps at me everytime someone say something.
09:06<Cadde>I just need another monitor as well. 2 isn't enough anymore.
09:07<TrueBrain>lennard: for that we have highlights ;)
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09:28<+glx><TrueBrain> lennard: for that we have highlights ;) or PMs
09:29<+glx>hmm I forgot the <-- ;)
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09:40<dihedral>hehe - TrueBrain has highlights :-P
09:41<TrueBrain>@kick dihedral and access to the bot
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09:41<TrueBrain>hihi :)
09:42<dihedral>oh how i missed those times :-D
10:00*SmatZ resists the urge ;)
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10:02<dihedral>thank you !
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10:22<OwenS>projects/generate makes for huge diffs
10:23<@peter1138>yeah, but it's automated, so it's nothing you need to read :)
10:23<OwenS>It doubled the size of the patch? Thats insane! :p
10:24<OwenS>Also, looking at it, it seems to have mutilated some lines: + AdditionalDependencies="..\src\langnglish.txt;..\objs\strgen\strgen.exe"
10:28<@Rubidium>looks like your awk doesn't understand whatever we try to do
10:29<@Rubidium>what OS are you one? What awk are you using?
10:29<OwenS>OpenSolaris, GNU awk
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10:31<@Rubidium>hmm, looks more like bash is doing something strange
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10:31<@Rubidium>maybe you're using some old bash (or not bash for that matter)
10:31<OwenS>GNU bash
10:32<OwenS>find reported an argument deprecation warning...
10:33<@Rubidium>bash --version ?
10:33<OwenS>GNU bash, version 4.0.28(1)-release (i386-pc-solaris2.11) // (C) 2009 FSF
10:33<@Rubidium>hmm, that sounds relatively recent
10:33<@peter1138>many changes needed for slowlaris?
10:34<OwenS>Compiles fine with G++. And not slow ;-)
10:34<OwenS>GNU Awk 3.1.5 (C) 1991-2005 is possibly the culprit
10:35<@Rubidium>OwenS: problem is that the part where it goes wrong doesn't use awk
10:36<OwenS>Probably the FSF decided that bash should emulate unix bash, rather than behaving like it does elsewhere.
10:36<@peter1138>awk: not an option: --version
10:36<@Rubidium>peter1138: -W version
10:36<@peter1138>mawk 1.3.3 Nov 1996, Copyright (C) Michael D. Brennan
10:36<OwenS>GAS is the same, which defies the point: If I wanted Solaris AS behaviour, I would use /usr/bin/as!
10:36<@Rubidium>OwenS: it's just odd that \\b ends up being \"beep"
10:37<OwenS>peter1138, what platform?
10:37<@peter1138>debian lenny :D
10:37<OwenS>Solaris' /usr/bin/awk doesn't even take -W version
10:37<@Rubidium>because mawk != gawk
10:38*OwenS wonders why /usr/xpg4/bin doesn't precede /usr/bin in PATH
10:38<@peter1138>50KB for road types patch so far :s
10:39<@peter1138>(and it doesn't work)
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
10:40<OwenS>ProgSigs is 165k without projects, 325k with
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still of the opinion that roads need more than just "roadtypes"
10:40<@Rubidium>that's because solaris is doing the wrong thing (tm)
10:40<@peter1138>projects shouldn't be that big. but your tools are fucking it up :)
10:40<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, have you documented your proposals?
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>.. all over the place :p
10:41<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, have you coherently documented your proposals?
10:41<@Rubidium>peter1138: ofcourse in "/dev/null" or ""
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>... anyway, it's basically SimCity 4-style "puzzle tiles" with newgrf-airport-style state machines for vehicle movement
10:43<Ammler>Cadde: <-- I do bananas it later tonight.
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>"problem" is that it's nontrivial to extend the airport state machines for articulated vehicles
10:44<Cadde>And the parameter?
10:44<Cadde>Ammler: ^
10:44<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, isn't the term there "puzzle pieces"?
10:44<Ammler>Cadde: yep, with parameter
10:44<Ammler>4 if you read desc
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: no, because the map consists of tiles, not of pieces
10:45<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, it does in SimCity 4 too. They're called Puzzle Pieces because of how the engine works with them ;-)
10:45<Cadde>Ammler: Ah ok, im not used to people actally putting the parameters in their grf's... Usually it leads to me browing an entire thread jsut to find out if there is one at all.
10:46<Cadde>Keep up the good work :) And thanks again!
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: even then, i'm german and it's "Puzzleteile" in german
10:47<OwenS>It starts with a number of networks at square edges, then picks the correct piece to suit the puzzle ;-)
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10:47<Ammler>Cadde: that is because you needed to define parameters before you load the grf some years ago ;-)
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i wonder if they'll freak out in the store if i bring back the stuff every half year...
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>i brought back my mouse/keyboard yesterday, because of broken mouse wheel, and they switched it with a brand new one (including batteries)
10:52<Cadde>OwenS: You don't have to worry about the projects IMO, but it might be helpful to others to describe in your OP that the files created by the patch needs to be included in the openttd project for vs
10:53<OwenS>Cadde, it will be painless enough when my HDD arrives and my Linux box is operational again
10:53<Cadde>Also, since i love your patch so much i can make SVN diffs out of it for you and even provide the binaries.
10:53<OwenS>Are SVN diffs that essential? Though feel free to provide them
10:54*Cadde is extremely happy now that i supposedly shouldn't have to be careful when removing tracks with progsig on them btw.
10:54<Cadde>Well, i banged my head a long time to get it to apply to trunk.
10:56<Cadde>And it's also quite painful to merge with other patches that conflict when using patch.exe as you have to manually edit instead of using the awesome tortoise merge
10:57<OwenS>One option I could propose is to clone the Git repository ;-)
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10:58<Cadde>Mrrr. I got it to work so im not going to mess it up. I am just going to do svn update rxxxx and then create the diff and then use the diff to apply it to chill's pack.
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: svn diffs are not essential, screw the people with broken "patch"
10:59<Cadde>And then edit strings.h to string.h ...
10:59<Cadde>I am still concerned over what that is all about
10:59<OwenS>Cadde, for some reason its not looking in tables/ for includes
10:59<JakeGrimshaw>hello all
10:59<Cadde>Ah so it's supposed to take the one in tables/, good to know
11:01<JakeGrimshaw>i don't suppose anyone with more knowledge than i have would know if it is possible to create a patch/action that would demolish all trees ?
11:01<Cadde>JakeGrimshaw: Just turn trees off?
11:01<Cadde>Unless you meant, demolish all trees in an already running game
11:01<dihedral>JakeGrimshaw: it's possible
11:02<dihedral>but you need it on client and server
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11:02<OwenS>dihedral, not necessarily. Just issue lots of demolish commands
11:02<JakeGrimshaw>i mean demolish all of the trees so i can replant them
11:02<Cadde>"Killing the planet, one tree at a time"
11:03<JakeGrimshaw>problems occur when adding AlpineClimate to a game, whereby the trees don't have snow on above the snowline unless you replant them all
11:03<dihedral>OwenS: with an ai ^^
11:03<OwenS>(Though issuing ~1024^2 commands would be insidious)
11:04<Cadde>JakeGrimshaw: Then someone should make a patch that looks for trees that are above the snowline and re-plants them in scenario editor
11:05<OwenS>Hmm, does Linux come with an implementation of Unix compress yet?
11:05<JakeGrimshaw>ah yes i suppose
11:06<JakeGrimshaw>is that possible Cadde
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11:16<dihedral>perhaps it would be possible to do that with the grf?
11:16<dihedral>i.e. take care of the trees
11:20<planetmaker>Alpine Climate is anyway severely flawed
11:21<JakeGrimshaw>is it a MB production ?
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11:22<@peter1138>alpine climate is pre-cargo labels
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11:25<JakeGrimshaw>would it be possible to update it to work with OpenGFX, or would it be easier to have a complete re-write
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>JakeGrimshaw: you need to replace the roof graphics
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>or you need to change the opengfx houses to have the same shape as the original houses
11:27<JakeGrimshaw>i see
11:27<JakeGrimshaw>big job or.. ?
11:30<Ammler>change opengfx might be easier :-)
11:31<Ammler>for example with a grf, which does replace the houses with ttd sprites
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11:40<JakeGrimshaw>i suppose so yes
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12:59<Eddi|zuHause>... ok this "greatest" guy is an annoying brat...
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13:15<Noldo>Eddi|zuHause: link?
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: german forum
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>he showed up at this thread with 1000 trains after like 1 in game year, and "honestly never cheating"
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>and now he starts "demanding" that the vehicle limit be increased
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>... and he has a total penis-compensation avatar :p
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13:34<@Rubidium>so, he's the greatest dick of that forum?
13:38<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: I bet, no save?
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13:40*fjb doesn't read the German forum any more.
13:40<TT1a1a1>guys, how do i enable the tramways option?
13:40<Yexo>use a newgrf with trams
13:40<+glx>use a tram grf
13:41<Terkhen>TT1a1a1: download the generic tram set from the online content and enable it at the newgrf options
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19639 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt luxembourgish.txt slovenian.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 2 changes by Phreeze
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by ntadej
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13:46<TT1a1a1>thanks, got it enabled
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13:47<TT1a1a1>could have been easier right enough
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13:59<Ammler> <-- nice junction :-)
14:02<@peter1138>hmm, still no level crossings in nutracks?
14:03<@peter1138>that's not a nice junction at all
14:03<NoobCp>But is it effective ? ;D
14:03<@peter1138>it's bloody ugly in fact
14:04<TT1a1a1>is it possible to get motorways\highways\freeways in openttd?
14:04<ccfreak2k>More junction in the trunction.
14:04<ccfreak2k>Roads don't have a speed limit.
14:04<fjb>Big junction on flat land and few trains, as always...
14:05<TT1a1a1>mmm, good point
14:05<TT1a1a1>i was thinking more lanes of traffic and one way
14:05<Ammler>peter1138: something of worst I have seen :-)
14:05<NoobCp>You can make one way roads TT1a1a1
14:07<TT1a1a1>yeah thanks
14:07<TT1a1a1>just read it
14:07<TT1a1a1>thought that icon was for signs
14:08<TT1a1a1>amazing ive not clicked it for years
14:08<TT1a1a1>my bad
14:09<TT1a1a1>are there any of these grfs that are worthwhile adding?
14:09*fjb wonders why so many people don't find the obvious features...
14:11<TT1a1a1>the different websites are confusing
14:11<TT1a1a1>the term newgrfs sounds like jargon and avoided
14:11<TT1a1a1>why not plugin
14:12<TT1a1a1>"how can i add trams?"... "get the tram plugin" instead of "download the generic tram set from the online content and enable it at the newgrf options"
14:13<Yexo>then the next question would be "how to get the tram plugin?"
14:13<Yexo>besides, there are multiple tram newgrfs
14:13<Yexo>so "the tram plugin" would be confusing as well, it should be "a tram plugin"
14:14<TT1a1a1>yip, you would say "get it at the plugins site" instead of landing on a wiki page to then be redirected to a forum post
14:14<Ammler>TT1a1a1: the more you add the better ;-)
14:14<Yexo>so the actualy answer to "how can I add trams?" would be "download the generic tram set from the online content and enable it at the plugin options window"
14:14<Yexo>which is neither clearer nor shorten than the answer you got now
14:15<TT1a1a1>an in game grf browser would probably be best
14:16<Yexo>there is one
14:16<Yexo>click "download online content" in the main menu
14:17<TT1a1a1>ok scrub all of that, the issue is that players that played the original didnt bother to look at the new features
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's a big overgeneralization...
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14:37<andythenorth>wouldn't it be nice if the default for transfer orders was 'transfer and no loading'
14:37*andythenorth goes to feed the ponies
14:39<Jolteon>andythenorth: yes.
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, it would be very nice
14:48<andythenorth>so would world peace
14:48<andythenorth>is anyone coding world peace?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think mister premature-nobel-peace-price has some plans concerning that
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15:02<str00tz>im new to openttd, and was wondering, it seems like many ppl can buy endless amounts of cargo holders and fill the up, why am i not able to do this ? do you get more cargo for longer distances or something ?
15:02<planetmaker>but you usually get more money when you do long distance hauls
15:03<planetmaker>and it helps to use "full load" orders
15:03<str00tz>so it waits in the station until its full?
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15:04<str00tz>ok, ill try that . thanks :)
15:08<str00tz>and does it matter how long a station is ?
15:10<planetmaker>yes and no. It matters for loading speed. If the station is too short, it takes ages to fill the train
15:10<planetmaker>otherwise: no influence.
15:10<str00tz>ah, well that makes sense actually
15:10<planetmaker>you could even load coal in a passenger terminal
15:11<str00tz>for such a small game, it sure it alot to learn..hehe, ive yet to read up on the signaling.
15:12<planetmaker>:-) One of the more intricate parts :-)
15:12<str00tz>yeah, thats why i havent read up on it yet, seems like alot to learn, so until then, i have alot of stations and single tracks :)
15:13<planetmaker>pretty boring, eh?
15:13<str00tz>with single tracks ?
15:13<planetmaker>with single tracks and no signals :-)
15:14<str00tz>not yet, since im new, still learning :P
15:14<str00tz>ill give it about a week before it gets old :P
15:14<planetmaker>haha :-)
15:15<planetmaker> <-- let me present you the games of the final stages of insanity ;-)
15:15<str00tz>oh god
15:16<str00tz>gimme 10-15 years :P
15:16<planetmaker>one is sufficient ;-)
15:17<str00tz>consdering it took me about a week to figure out you can copy both train/car and orders in 1 click, i`d say 10 years atleast :)
15:17<KenjiE20>funnily enough the older ones have been at this for about 15yrs
15:17<planetmaker>true enough ;-)
15:17<planetmaker>and the younger ones don't even count that number of years :-P
15:18<KenjiE20>>_> yea
15:18<KenjiE20>you people and their facetubes
15:18<planetmaker> <-- one of my personal favourite games
15:19<KenjiE20>wasn't that the weird rebuilt snowline one?
15:19<KenjiE20>or was that 133
15:19<Ammler>don't like to save directly :-P
15:19<planetmaker>it's a Japanese regional ICE / s-bahn scenario
15:19<planetmaker>better ^ ?
15:20<KenjiE20>oh yea, I remember that one now
15:20<KenjiE20>sea of mail
15:20<planetmaker>yeah :-) My nice 'little' ICE terminal ;-)
15:20<planetmaker>I played it a lot and I enjoyed that map even more :-)
15:21<planetmaker>str00tz, but mind that those maps were not build by _one_ person but by many.
15:21<planetmaker>I bet usually even more than show up in the participants list
15:22<KenjiE20>well, yes
15:22<planetmaker>building it along... takes ages.
15:22<KenjiE20>since those would/should be usuals, not one show-ish people
15:22<planetmaker>yep, probably. I'm waiting for auto-generated participants lists actually :-)
15:23<planetmaker>should be feasible.
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15:48<OwenS>planetmaker, shouldn't that be possible from the logs?
15:49<OwenS>Sum each user's purchases, discarding sales. If higher than a certain amount, class them as a participant
15:51<OwenS>planetmaker, why 151-160 in particular?
15:52<planetmaker>no reason
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16:05<zodttd>Rubidium: Why did you pull OpenTTD for iPad? What rights did I infringe, and why didn't you contact me when I wrote to you before I submitted it to Apple?
16:05<zodttd>Rubidium: It was a top 20 app in all of iPad games.
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16:09<Yexo>zodttd: there was no license file in the package, and you it wasn't possible to the complete source (including your modifications) nor was there a written offer from you to give the complete source
16:09<zodttd>Rubidium: I met each of your requirements you outlined. I made sure to include a splash screen with the GPL in it's entirity completely shown. I'm wondering if you even tried it for the iPad before pulling it. I still have a flood of emails from the iPhone version being requested.
16:09<zodttd>Both are there
16:09<Yexo>the ipa file didn't contain a license file
16:09<zodttd>The IPA file is a binary
16:10<zodttd>So I included it in the splash screen
16:10<Yexo>so? that binary should be accompanied by the license
16:10<zodttd>As I was told to do!
16:10<zodttd>By Rubidium himself
16:10<zodttd>I can't do that, so I said I would put it in a splash within the game, as that is allowed as well
16:10<Yexo>is there a way to view that without loading the application on the ipad?
16:11<Yexo>and where can I download the complete source?
16:11<zodttd>Look at the description on iTunes, There's a link to my github
16:11<zodttd>linking now
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16:13<zodttd>The license is included in the source there as well. I left it untouched as I was taking careful precautions to, quite frankly, not have backlash from the OpenTTD team after my iPhone app was pulled without reason after I met the pre-reqs I discussed with Rubidium
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16:14<zodttd>Was any research done before pulling this app? I was here the whole time. Why wasnt *I* contacted first?
16:14<zodttd>There is a contact on the iTunes website.
16:15<zodttd>I realize it's not required, but it's definitely polite.
16:15<Yexo>I don't know, I just downloaded your app via itunes
16:15<zodttd>It was all there :-/
16:15<PeterT>zodttd: Thanks for all your hard work porting it to the iPod Touch/iPhone/iPad devices :-)
16:16<zodttd>PeterT: Appreciate it. I was trying to do better for the iPad, as it really was a very enjoyable platform to use it. Not to mention it works well on the Mac.
16:16<PeterT>Yeap, the iPad has quite a big screen
16:16<PeterT>Useful for OTTD I guess
16:17<PeterT>How does your app scroll the map?
16:17<Yexo>zodttd: is there any way to view the splashscreen without loading the app on an ipad?
16:17<zodttd>left "click" scroll
16:17<Yexo>is it encoded in the ipa for example?
16:17<zodttd>Yexo: It's inside the IPA
16:17<zodttd>But as text
16:17<OwenS>presumably strings would find it?
16:17<zodttd>encoded in the MainWindow.nib file
16:18<zodttd>It would
16:18<Yexo>ah, ok
16:18<OwenS>Is there no way to have a LICENSE file inside the IPA? (Sorry, I have no clue how iPhoneOS app distribution works)
16:18<zodttd>There is, but you should never see it as that's part of Apple's DRM
16:19<zodttd>So I included it in the splash to be more upfront about it
16:19<zodttd>I left it out of the IPA since the filesystem of the Apple device isnt to be seen
16:19<PeterT>every app becomes .ipa
16:19<PeterT>that's all you distribute, the .ipa
16:19<zodttd>iTunes does
16:19<zodttd>But the end user shouldnt see the IPA or the files inside it
16:20<PeterT>zodttd: how is it implemented? does it come up with the license.txt when you open the app?
16:20<Eoin>zodttd: but you can see the
16:20<Eoin>specially if you jailbreak :P
16:20<zodttd>Eoin: True, but that's typically used for warez reasons
16:21<zodttd>OpenTTD for iPad was doing amazingly well. It was top 20 of all games.
16:21<zodttd>After only a few hours
16:22<Sacro>is it included in any dmg files?
16:22<Sacro>or self extracting zips?
16:22<zodttd>An IPA is a zip file pretty much
16:23<planetmaker>dmg have it
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16:23<OwenS>zodttd, putting it in the IPA should satisfy the requirements then, I would assume
16:23<OwenS>(Readable on and off device)
16:23<Prof_Frink>Wait wait wait. The iPad has IPA? *Now* it sounds interesting.
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16:23<zodttd>OwenS: It would, but I was doing you a favor by placing it in the splash so end users can actually see it
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16:24<OwenS>zodttd, I was actually implying the splash screen should stay too
16:25<zodttd>Thing is, I can't resubmit the app now
16:25<zodttd>Apple pulled it
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16:25<zodttd>Rubidium will have to contact Apple however he did before, to allow for it. Otherwise there will not be an OpenTTD on both the iPhone and iPad now
16:26<zodttd>Checking if I can even send an update for the app now.
16:26<planetmaker>zodttd, maybe it's about time you start to work WITH the devs
16:27<zodttd>I tried
16:27-!-NoobCp [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:27<planetmaker>submit your patches to flyspray
16:27<planetmaker>don't call something 1.0.0 which isn't.
16:27<zodttd>There's no intention of an Apple device based OpenTTD by the team I was told
16:27<zodttd>This is 1.0.0
16:27<planetmaker>you made mods. It isn't.
16:27<zodttd>I was told to do that by Rubidium
16:28<zodttd>It was a reason for pulling the iPhone version
16:28<zodttd>Infact one of the reasons for pulling the iPhone version was due to me not making many changes at all
16:28<Yexo>zodttd: you didn't include the license file for opengfx/opensfx
16:28<zodttd>I included the licenses you provided
16:28<Yexo>just include the complete tar as downloaded from bananas
16:29<planetmaker>you ripped all artists of their well-deserved credits? :-(
16:29<zodttd>Misread. OpenGFX and OpenSFX I did mess up. I didn't realize they were on a different license.
16:29<Yexo>that includes both a license file and a readme with information on where to find the source etc.
16:29<zodttd>Oh please!
16:29<Yexo>planetmaker: yes
16:29<planetmaker>oh yes!
16:29<zodttd>A license isn't credit btw
16:29<zodttd>Its a right
16:29<planetmaker>zodttd, it's the only thing those people worked for on it - for TWO years!
16:30<zodttd>planetmaker: They worked on LICENSE.TXT for two years?
16:30<zodttd>No, they worked on their art
16:30<planetmaker>well, credits
16:30<Yexo>zodttd: yes, and the list of people that worked on that art is included in readme.txt, which is also part of the bananas tar
16:31<zodttd>Isn't that downloaded with Online Content ?
16:31<Yexo>plus you need to link to the source for opengfx, which again is done in that tar
16:31<zodttd>So whats the problem?
16:31<zodttd>They can download it via the app
16:31<zodttd>If it just matters whats in the filesystem, and not whats displayed to the user (as otherwise we shouldnt care whats on the filsystem), why does this matter?
16:31<Yexo>they can't, as openttd won't offer opengfx for download if you already have it
16:32<zodttd>Delete it
16:32<Yexo>it matters because this isn't in the filesystem at all
16:32<zodttd>If you download the tar, it includes the license right?
16:32<zodttd>Then its in teh filesystem
16:33<Yexo>and also a readme.txt
16:33<Yexo>zodttd: no, you didn't include that tar in your ipa pacakge
16:33<zodttd>Then they can read it the same way you read my IPA
16:33<Yexo>you only included the .grf and .obg files
16:34<zodttd>If you're so concerned by the filesystem, remove them from the filesystem
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16:34<zodttd>So frustrated.
16:35<Yexo>zodttd: it's so simple, just include the opengfx tar file instead of the .grf/.obg files
16:35<zodttd>And I would
16:35<Yexo>and the same for opensfx (which is really under a different filesystem)
16:35<planetmaker>and license
16:35<Yexo>ehm, I ment license, not filesystem
16:36<zodttd>This could esily be remedied
16:36<zodttd>I actually have the tar's for everything else
16:36<Yexo>that's what I'm telling you the whole time
16:38<zodttd>But, I need Rubidium to give his blessings to basically stop Apple from pulling it and allow for an update. I wasn't contacted at all to know I did anything wrong. Same for iPhone after I updated, and Apple told me nothing. If Apple pulls it, I'm not sure if they'll allow it back on the AppStore by policy.
16:38<planetmaker>zodttd, you could have contacted him beforehand
16:38<zodttd>I did!
16:38<zodttd>I got no response
16:40<planetmaker>well... allow some more time :-)
16:40<zodttd>And I've been idling here for days now. I could of easily been contacted as well with some common courtesy.
16:40<Yexo>zodttd: did you base your version on the 1.0.0 version?
16:41<zodttd>That's not really how it works, since I believed I was meeting all of his previous requirements.
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16:41<planetmaker>zodttd, it is how it could work :-)
16:42<zodttd>If the OpenTTD team had an issue with my port, I don't see why they went to straight to Apple to yank the port instead of having the courtesy to write me first and let me work it out. Going straight to ISP's is how Microsoft works.
16:42<planetmaker>after all he knows openttd and its intricacies...
16:42<zodttd>More the reason to contact me first.
16:42<planetmaker>zodttd, experience with the previous iphone 1.0 release maybe?
16:43<zodttd>I still don't know why it was pulled after I spoke with him.
16:43<zodttd>I released the update, and a pull notice was sent afterwards.
16:43<zodttd>No explaination.
16:43<zodttd>I had to contact him, he didn't contact me.
16:43<zodttd>Same sort.
16:44<zodttd>When I spoke with him, I thought it was handled too, and the update would resolve things. Then a second pull notice came with no explaination.
16:45<planetmaker>So you release official-seeming updates on a patched version without having any dev check what you call an official version? And you wonder?
16:45<zodttd>I did check
16:45-!-frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
16:45<planetmaker>But no one else.
16:45<zodttd>I never called it an official version
16:45<planetmaker>And it looks like the real thing, though no offiicial dev had his hands in it.
16:45<planetmaker>But they will get the bug reports
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16:46<planetmaker>zodttd, what is OpenTTD 1.0.0 then?
16:46<Yexo>zodttd: you have, by calling your version 1.0.0
16:46<planetmaker>Does it look different than an officially released binary?
16:46<Yexo>zodttd: part of the problem is probably apple not forwarding the complains to you
16:46<zodttd>Look at the author and support link on iTunes
16:46<zodttd>I handled that too
16:46<dihedral>oh - this looks interesting
16:46<dihedral>hello pm
16:46<planetmaker>hello dihedral :-)
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16:47<planetmaker>zodttd, I don't mean evil. But I try to look at it from the other side :-)
16:47<zodttd>I am
16:48<zodttd>But I explained all this before to Rubidium himself and things sounded much better after that.
16:49<planetmaker>after the first beta3 which you released as 1.0.0?
16:49<planetmaker>which required some tricks being pulled out of the sleeve in order to avoid the real 1.0.0 accept that as a valid client?
16:51<planetmaker>sorry, if I missed part of that movie, but that's the first (and last thing) I heard of an iphone / ipad port
16:51<planetmaker>except that here and now
16:51<planetmaker>also if I'd like to do a port, I'd submit all my modification as patches to the bug tracker
16:52<planetmaker>well. I do. As far as my abilities go in that respect
16:52<@peter1138>heh, the changes are minor, with a few ifdefs
16:53<@peter1138>and then you gave up and just commented random bits out in places
16:53<planetmaker>peter1138, my last submitted patches were also minor. Still it adds up.
16:54<@Rubidium>hi, now "my" side of the story: 1) you were on (irc) ignore (probably because of excessive reconnects), as such I did not see anything from you (no reply == whatever you tried to send is received)
16:54<zodttd>Hi Rubidium. Listening.
16:54<@peter1138>not that Rubidium is the only dev. i never got any pms.
16:55<@Rubidium>2) I don't own a Mac, nor have Windows nor have iTunes. The only "access" I have to itunes is via some "snapshots from itunes" page. This page only shows a name, not an email address so I can't contact you directly
16:55<zodttd>There's a contact link on the iTunes page.
16:56<@Rubidium>not on the "snapshot/screenshots from itunes" page I used
16:56<zodttd>The official one is above. For reference. I can understand where you're coming from there though.
16:57<@Rubidium>3) I have to ask someone to download the binary package for me so I can disect it. As I don't have any Apple hardware nor itunes I cannot run it.
16:58<@Rubidium>4) I expect that if I send comments to Apple that they forward them to you
16:58<zodttd>4) They didnt :(
16:58<Noldo>Apple <3
16:58<KenjiE20>isn't this all moot what with the licencing updates anyway?
16:59<zodttd>I had no clue why the iPhone version was pulled either. Now that I know I was on ignore here, it explains why you never responded too.
16:59<@Rubidium>5) in the first email I sent to Apple I mentioned missing files; actually a lot of files needed for normal compilation are missing (makefiles etc). That is not my main problem. The main problem is that a file needed for compilation is missing.
16:59<OwenS>Hmm... OpenTTD doesn't compy with the requirements for iPhone/iPad apps
16:59<@Rubidium>5a) that file is missing in the ipad git repository too
16:59<OwenS>Apple recently updated their terms to prohibit the interpretation of code
16:59<zodttd>Rubidium: Not the case now. I have a project for XCode used
16:59<KenjiE20>OwenS: my point
16:59<zodttd>OwenS: It's not interpeted in their mind
17:00<OwenS>zodttd, Squirrel isn't interpreted?
17:00<zodttd>OwenS: It's more in reference to emulation
17:00<OwenS>What about the code in NewGRFs?
17:00<zodttd>That's parsed.
17:00<OwenS>zodttd, no, they explicitly prohibit interpretation
17:00<OwenS>parsing != running...
17:00<zodttd>Either way, they approve it.
17:00<Yexo>OwenS: care to post a link that that?
17:00<zodttd>It interprets it into what bytecode?
17:01<planetmaker>newgrfs are already bytecode.
17:01<zodttd>I dont think so. That's what they are concerned about.
17:01<PeterT>Yexo: I can get one.
17:01<OwenS>Yexo, I don't have a link to their TOS, but a person has quoted it as
17:01<OwenS>“3.3.1 … Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).”
17:01<@Rubidium>6) licenses are missing and so are some readmes. I just heard you include the GPL license in the binary. I could not find it in the OpenTTD binary, seems it is in some other binary file (which is why I couldn't find it)
17:01<@Rubidium>6a) OpenSFX's license isn't GPL and missing too
17:01<PeterT>yeah, what OwenS
17:02<zodttd>Rubidium: I included it in the binary as I thought thats what we agreed on since the filesystem and IPA is never to be downloaded by an end user in Apple's distribution process
17:02<@peter1138>personally i think it is easily solvable. include the license files, even if a normal user won't see them. include opengfx/opensfx in their original forms. include license information and links to original sources in the information on itunes. etc .etc .etc .
17:02<zodttd>peter1138: Easily and gladly done.
17:02<@Rubidium>6b) OpenSFX doesn't allow commercial distribution; don't know whether itunes can be considered commercial (I haven't made a ruling of this, but I wonder about it)
17:03<zodttd>Rubidium: It's a free app download. Is it still commercial in your opinion?
17:03<OwenS>zodttd, Rubidium's opinion is irrelevant.
17:03<@peter1138>itunes is commercial :)
17:03<planetmaker>though I'd say "no", a lawer could probably come up with a "yes" ;-)
17:03<@Rubidium>6c) GPL states "give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program", which I would read as including it in the binary is not enough
17:03<zodttd>I respect his opinion though
17:03<@peter1138>OwenS, squirrel AIs can't use any apple APIs
17:03<@peter1138>they can only use openttd's calls
17:04<OwenS>peter1138, hmm...
17:04<OwenS>It would depend upon how you interpreted it
17:04<zodttd>Rubidium: I had thought this wasn't an issue. But I can easily solve it by including it on the filesystem in addition to the splash.
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: isn't 6c) the reason why he made a splash screen, so users get to actually see it?
17:04<zodttd>Eddi|zuHause: Exactly
17:04<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, "any" is the operative word here
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>(of course i'm only interpreting here)
17:05<OwenS>If I get the binary I must be able to see the license, even if I can't run the binary
17:05<zodttd>OwenS: Right. I failed to think that through.
17:06<Yexo>OwenS: actually you can if you view the MainWindow.nib file in a text editor (the file isn't pure text, but it's readable)
17:06<@Rubidium>7) there are many minor things like misrepresenting the thing, e.g. "claiming" everything is copyrighted by "OpenTTD Team", the copyright year is 2005-2010 and such (those aren't reasons to pull it though)
17:07<@Rubidium>8) the source repository is kinda messed up so I had a hard time figuring out what the differences w.r.t. the official sources are (also not a reason to pull it, just FYI)
17:07<zodttd>Yexo: And within XCode in pure text
17:08<zodttd>Rubidium: I placed the copyright there
17:08<zodttd>Rubidium: Any recommendation to clean up the source repo and make it more clearly defined for you, I would gladly follow
17:08<OwenS>Yexo, I wouldn't otherwise know to look in MainWindow.nib
17:09<@peter1138>what happened to network/core/config.h?
17:09<@Rubidium>zodttd: you could start by not moving around files in the source repository, but just copy them in your "install" script
17:10<@Rubidium>also ignore the compiled language files
17:10<@peter1138>+extern unsigned long VideoAddress[20][1024*768]; // cheating
17:10<@peter1138>yikes :p
17:10<zodttd>Rubidium: I included those just to be as complete as possible
17:10<zodttd>peter1138: Eep yeah! ;P
17:10<OwenS>zodttd, why not just clone the OpenTTD git repository?
17:10<@peter1138>doesn't look like that's even used...
17:10<@peter1138>unless there's more ... missing
17:10<zodttd>peter1138: It was there temp.
17:11<@peter1138>seems to be not that temporary ;p
17:11<@Rubidium>move the third party stuff out of the OpenTTD directory, i.e. a freetype and sdl directory in the root directory
17:11<zodttd>Rubidium: Ok :)
17:12<@Rubidium>going to a tens of thousands of lines of diff isn't something I appreciate
17:12<zodttd>Rubidium: Right.
17:12<@peter1138>weird. the diff i got was nothing like that
17:12<@Rubidium>peter1138: you didn't notice the sdl and freetype?
17:13<zodttd>Hmm wait, freetype?
17:13<@peter1138>there's an SDL8bit directory, next to 1.0.0
17:13<zodttd>Oh! I see what you mean. Right
17:14<@peter1138>my diff doesn't include that... only a single "only in" like for the whole directory tree, heh
17:14<OwenS>Yikes at that directory layout. I have to wonder why you didn't just clone the official repository...
17:15<@Rubidium>OwenS: the git repository doesn't include releases
17:15<@Rubidium>primarily because we do some tricks that git and friends don't like on releases
17:15<planetmaker>I guess the .../openttd/include dir is a result of using xcode which might have created it and moved things there.
17:15<OwenS>OK, then use git svn...
17:16<@peter1138>why bother removing the existing build system at all?
17:16<@Rubidium>oh, didn't even see yet :)
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17:16<zodttd>Rubidium: While we're both here. Is there any way this can be resolved? Apple is about to pull the app from AppStore. I think at that point it would bar me from resubmitting it unless you can write Apple whichever way was done before. I am sticking around here, so I will make sure the update is exactly the way it should be.
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17:17<planetmaker>he... interesting lib dir.
17:17<OwenS>Wait, we commit compiled libraries into source control now O_o?
17:18<zodttd>Yeah, need to clean that out.
17:18<@peter1138>OwenS, have you ever checked out rigsofrods...?
17:18<zodttd>OwenS: You can. :P
17:18<@Rubidium>zodttd: there's probably a way to resolve it, but it requires quite some work
17:18<OwenS>Generally considered... extremely bad practice? :p
17:19<zodttd>Rubidium: On your part or mine?
17:19*planetmaker guesses
17:19<dihedral>both i'd assume :-P
17:19<@peter1138>OwenS, it includes a couple of hundred MB of debug and release libs for windows platforms...
17:19<planetmaker>:-) @ dihedral
17:19<@peter1138>(thomas needs to get a clue, there)
17:20<OwenS>peter1138, yikes. The closest i've seen to that is Ogre3D's win32 dependencies repository. Which is explicitly a Win32 binary dependencies repository
17:20<zodttd>Rubidium: I will gladly put the work into it. It honestly doesn't sound that hard to accomplish. I just need the blessings of your team in order to get anywhere.
17:20<PeterT>Interesting conversation...
17:20<zodttd>Rubidium: Otherwise it's a very upward battle I'm fighting here to see this open source project ported to Apple devices. I'm not sure if there's bad blood between us, but I surely respect your team.
17:21<@peter1138>well.... "openttd 2.0.0" :p
17:21<zodttd>peter1138: Apple will be gone in 6 years ;)
17:23<@Rubidium>zodttd: most on your part, unless you want the i<whatever> changes to be part of the official source repository (although even then most work is yours)
17:23<zodttd>peter1138: In all seriousness though, I am receiving really nice feedback on the iPad version, and it was climbing up the charts to top 20 game on the iPad within hours. There's a huge demand for this port.
17:23<zodttd>Rubidium: Would you publish to the AppStore if it went official?
17:24<@peter1138>"Here’s what’s new in v2.0.0 of OpenTTD:"tc
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17:24<OwenS>zodttd, Rubidium doesn't have the prerequsite XCode ;-)
17:24<@Rubidium>zodttd: don't know
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17:25<@Rubidium>I've got no clue of the rules related to putting stuff on there
17:25<Yexo>zodttd: does that matter much? if the changes needed are part of the openttd repository the only thing you need to do for the next version is check if it still compiles and if so, upload it
17:25<zodttd>If it compiles it reuqires $99 from everyone who wants to run it on the device
17:25<zodttd>$99 to Apple for a dev license
17:26<zodttd>Then you will have tons of people submitting it to the AppStore as their own as well
17:26<@Rubidium>even then, none of the developers has a Mac and as such no xcode (don't know whether it's required)
17:26<zodttd>So imagine me times 1000
17:26<planetmaker>and possibly checking for "does it compile" in between and submitting the appropriate patches in order to lift any failures to do so.
17:26<zodttd>I have a Mac
17:26<zodttd>And I'm trying my best to see it done.
17:26<@Rubidium>and I doubt that apple will accept stuff that is compiled by a cross-compiler (if we're able to build one)
17:26<zodttd>XCode is based ont he GNU Toolchain
17:26<OwenS>Wow... macho-arm-llvm-gcc
17:26<zodttd>DOnt use LLVM
17:27<zodttd>Use GCC 4.2
17:27<OwenS>XCode uses clang
17:27<planetmaker>OwenS, wrong
17:27<OwenS>Except for for C++
17:27<OwenS>GCC is going away
17:27<planetmaker>default is still gcc
17:27<OwenS>planetmaker, well, GCC is marked as "going away when Clang's C++ support matures"
17:28<OwenS>(And good riddance to that monstrosity)
17:28<JakeGrimshaw>I know this is a bit OT, but does anyone have RT3 here?
17:28<@Rubidium>the cross compiler doesn't even work fine with gcc 4.2 IIRC
17:28<OwenS>And Apple STILL use a 1995 binutils...
17:28<@Rubidium>OwenS: uhm... I doubt that
17:29<zodttd>Rubidium: So what can be done for me to see OpenTTD on the iPad? I'm not seeing much cooperation here now. I need to let people know as I'm getting emails from fans of OpenTTD from tt-forums and of mine in general. They'll definitely be upset when they sync their iPad and it's removed.
17:30<planetmaker>zodttd, try to do it piecewise. Aim for 1.1 :-)
17:30<planetmaker>or 1.0.1
17:30<planetmaker>if you like
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17:30<planetmaker>submit the patches you need
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17:30<planetmaker>allow your changes to move into the official repo
17:31<planetmaker>(submit = submit to Flyspray)
17:31<Yexo>zodttd: start with included all license files and readme files
17:31<@Rubidium>I'd say start by cleaning up the source repository so "we" can see what's changed and such
17:31<zodttd>I dont think you understand. Rubidium wrote Apple with a pull notice. If he doesn't write Apple in the next hour or so with an explaination to not pull it and say it's resolved, there will be no OpenTTD on AppStore by me ever.
17:31<zodttd>Once they pull it, I can't resubmit
17:31<@Rubidium>and create a binary package we can review
17:32<planetmaker>zodttd, they'd allow that, if done at a later date, too, I'd guess
17:32<zodttd>I can have you one in a few seconds. It's basically including a tar of OpenGFX / SFX and a LICENSE.TXT in the IPA
17:32<zodttd>planetmaker: I am not able to get OpenTTD on the iPhone now from all I've seen.
17:33<Ammler>zodttd: I would prefer the readme.txt
17:33<planetmaker>as there's no word that things changed from Rb
17:33<+tokai>How is this Apple's application signing compatible with GPL, btw? Wasn't there some issue there?
17:33<zodttd>They log all communication and pull notices on their backend and keep an eye on the status
17:33<zodttd>Ammler: Good point
17:33<Ammler>the readme should also point to the license file
17:34<Ammler>(on the splash)
17:34<@Rubidium>oh, also... if I don't react on IRC within say a day, feel free to ask the others and send me an email instead of assuming everything is okay
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17:35<zodttd>Rubidium: I'll remember that for the next Apple device. :-/
17:35<Eoin>the iPadPhone
17:36<dihedral>or the iphonepad?
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>zodttd: this one?
17:37<@Rubidium>works great with the ipad
17:39<Asheron>chuckles, Apple may come out with the first fully integrated communication device..... and a way for it to be hardwired to the human brain... Star Trek Communicators meet HUD Computers in cool looking Rayban Sunglasses
17:39*Rubidium still likes the iRack
17:39<Asheron>They just clip on your head like LtCom. Jordi Laforges optics visor
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17:42<Ammler>zodttd: how does someone without i<whatever> download/get your package?
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17:42<PeterT>Ammler: without a device? just download iTunes and make a free account
17:42<PeterT>without iTunes? not possible
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17:45<Ammler>well, at least it is possible to get it for free...
17:46<Ammler>dunno, if that is fine for nocom clause
17:46<KenjiE20> <-- Asheron :P
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17:48<Ammler>what is the easiest/most safe way to determine if openttd has blitter support?
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17:48<Ammler>on dedicated
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17:48<Ammler>and grep for it?
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause>* Rubidium still likes the iRack <-- wasn't that "mission accomplished" and the new focus the "iRan"?
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17:50<@Rubidium>Ammler: yes; just openttd -h | grep -B1 'List of blitters' | tail -n1 |grep -v null
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17:51<@Rubidium>if it's empty there're no other blitters
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>not -A1?
17:52<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: possibly :)
17:53<Ammler>-B1 didn't work :-)
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt, -C1 ;)
17:53<Ammler>but doesn't matter, I grep for 8bpp-optimized
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: what if that one is dropped for some platforms for some reason?
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17:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: at compile time? Guess that's too much work
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it's not impossible...
17:55<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, as I start it with -b8bpp-optimized
17:55<Ammler>it is fine, it would also fail in that case
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>ok, if you say so...
17:56<zodttd>Rubidium: Do you have any intentions to write Apple to place a hold on the pulling of OpenTTD for iPad, so that I may update it today and include all licensing agreements in the filesystem and splash?
17:56<Ammler>well, another ugly ap+ hack :-)
17:56<planetmaker>hehe @ Ammler :-)
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: pherhaps add $BLITTER as a configurable variable...
17:57<Ammler>yes, but that wouldn't solve if that config is set but openttd compiled without blitter
18:00<Cadde>AGH! I became a Supernode and that is the first and LAST time.
18:02<Cadde>Not that i wanted to in the first place. Nor did i know until i wondered why my HDD was on constantly and my traffic was 30 Kbyte/s either way.
18:04<Cadde>I can see how some people who have limited traffic on their ISP could find this to be quite annoying.
18:06<Cadde>So to anyone running skype. The above is for you as depending on your bandwidth or ISP plan it can ruin your day!
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18:18<OwenS>Cadde, just avoid Skype?
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18:21<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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18:27<Cadde>OwenS: No can do, skype is good as a voip solution and that's why all my friends are using it.
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18:27<Cadde>Thus, i sorta have to use it as well
18:28<Cadde>I'm gonna compile your patch now. Been sleeping.
18:28<OwenS>If I want voice chat, I use the phone... Though I have lots of minutes I don't use anyway :p
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18:28<Nite_Owl>Will the new title screen make it into the nightly any time soon? (Just a question - not a priority)
18:28<OwenS>Nite_Owl, no. Never
18:29<OwenS>It's a title screen for 1.0 only
18:30<Nite_Owl>Interesting and probably just as well
18:30<OwenS>That the existing save game is so old makes it a good test
18:31<Nite_Owl>true enough
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18:34<Cadde>OwenS: Eh, how did you get this to load in VS again?
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18:35<JakeGrimshaw>are you there Born_Acorn ?
18:35<OwenS>Cadde, try running projects/generate.vbs. I notice that the generate script has messed them up in the diff...
18:36<Cadde>Oh right sorry forgot
18:36<OwenS>Then open the solution file
18:37<Cadde>So are the progsig sources added to the project at this stage or do i have to do it manually still?
18:37<OwenS>They should be added
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18:38<OwenS>The generate script looks at the sources.list, like the makefile for every other platform
18:38<Yexo>Cadde: if you've added the files to source.list they'll be added to the project files by the generate script
18:38<Cadde>Oh i see, thanks OwenS, Yexo.
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18:39<JakeGrimshaw>As Born_Acorn is not here, does anyone else know anything about RT3 ?
18:41<JakeGrimshaw>don't all rush at once ;)
18:41<Cadde>OwenS: Now i remember what happened last time i used the strings.h in tables.
18:42<Cadde>Error 1 error C4430: missing type specifier - int assumed. Note: C++ does not support default-int d:\ottddev\ottdsrc_19638_progsig\objs\langs\table\strings.h 6 openttd <---- Thats just one of 607
18:42<Yexo>Cadde: include string_type.h first
18:43<Cadde>Yexo: Ok. So thats a bug in OwenS code then.
18:44<OwenS>The thing I have to wonder: Why does it compile fine everywhere else? What is the difference?
18:45<Cadde>OwenS: It compiles fine when i replace strings.h with string.h and string.h is nowhere to be found in the ottd source.
18:45<Cadde>So that means you are probably using a strings.h someplace on your environment.
18:45<OwenS>Cadde, string.h is a C standard provided header
18:46<Cadde>strings and string are two different file names though.
18:46<OwenS>hmm... strings.h seems to be the backward compatibility header for K&R C, with crap like bzero() in it
18:46<Cadde>Either it's VS 2008 that requires string_type.h first or it's your environment providing a strings.h somewhere.
18:47<OwenS>(Actually, I must say I wish bzero, or perhaps it renamed as memclr, had been carried forwards... It memset (x, 0, y) can confuse people..
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18:49<Cadde>So what do you want me to do Owen. Use strings.h from table and add #include "string_types.h" or using my string.h that is somewhere on my computer.
18:49<Cadde>(lol ^)
18:49<OwenS>What happens if you just excise the line?
18:50-!-JakeGrimshaw [] has quit []
18:52<Cadde>Just the 4 performance warnings. (
18:53<Cadde>Those 4 warnings have been there since i first compiled your code though.
18:53-!-JakeGrimshaw [] has joined #openttd
18:53<Cadde>So nothing new.
18:55<OwenS>Oh, jeez MSVC... those warnings are patently silly...
18:55<Cadde>Whatever you say :D
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19:00<Cadde>-STR_FACE_EYECOLOUR_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Aanfaarw änneren
19:00<Cadde>+STR_FACE_EYECOLOUR_TOOLTIP :{BLACK}Aaenfaarw Ouerréng
19:01<Cadde>Isn't that beyond the scope of your patch?
19:01<Cadde>It's in your diff
19:01<OwenS>Cadde, yes. These things happen when git's merge algrorithm throws a wobbler
19:01<Cadde>oh right.
19:03-!-rhaeder [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:07<Cadde>Hmm, grr. The binary with max compression exceeds the maximum allowed size for the forum.
19:07<Cadde>OwenS: How large is your binary?
19:07<Cadde>I think VS sucks in more ways than i thought.
19:08<OwenS>Cadde, my binary is 160Mb
19:08<OwenS>Debugging information
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19:09<Cadde>Oh well, i will just host it on my brothers line :P
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19:18<Kovensky><OwenS> Cadde, yes. These things happen when git's merge algrorithm throws a wobbler <-- use git gui, you can add / remove individual hunks / lines from commits
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19:21<OwenS>The download URL is password protected btw
19:21<Cadde>OH SHIT
19:22<Cadde>OwenS: Is it still pw protected?
19:23<OwenS>Yes it seems
19:23<Cadde>kk thanks. Trying
19:23<Cadde>Not my server ;)
19:25<chaos95>wait what? programmable signals? :O
19:30<Eoin_>Cadde: programmable how
19:30<OwenS>Eoin_, read the topic
19:31<Cadde>Eoin_: yeah, talk to owen
19:31<OwenS>(And why are you asking Cadde when I developed them?! :P)
19:31<Eoin_>i just saw him as last post
19:31-!-ptr_ [] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzz]
19:31<Eoin_>but what im basically asking is
19:31<OwenS>Return to first post :p
19:31<Eoin_>ive forgot..
19:31*Cadde runs off with progsigs! Mooahahahahahhaaaa!
19:31-!-Eoin_ is now known as Eoin
19:32<KenjiE20>Eoin lol
19:32<OwenS>Cadde, before you run off... your link doesn't work ;p
19:32<Eoin>im trying to tank a daily on WoW
19:32<Eoin>and irc
19:32<Eoin>can it be a simple way of
19:32<Eoin>oh fuck it
19:32<Eoin>ill wait till someone asks something along the lines of it :P
19:33<OwenS>Eoin, or just, y'know, read the first post?
19:33<Cadde>OwenS: I know, i am trying to get the apache to restart but i can't even elevate my priviledges.
19:33<Cadde>I suck
19:33<Eoin>programmable in a different sense
19:33<Eoin>i get it
19:34<OwenS>What were you expecting?
19:34<OwenS>Cadde, aah
19:34<Eoin>i dont know
19:34<Eoin>tbh :P
19:34<Cadde>That works right
19:34<JakeGrimshaw>man, I hate Railroad Tycoon 3
19:35<Cadde>It's a dirty fix until i can molest my brother while he's not sleeping
19:35<KenjiE20>isn't that... nvm, I'll not say that
19:36<Cadde>Don't make me restart my browser.
19:37<amalloy1>i've been reading about cargo dist and would like to try it, but i can't seem to find a link to the latest windows binary. anyone happen to know where it is?
19:38<Cadde>amalloy1: I will make a combined package soon
19:38<Cadde>With cargodist, daylength, chill's latest and progsigs
19:39<KenjiE20>( the last one I know of)
19:39<Cadde>Can anyone tell me if the link i posted is pw protected?
19:40<Terkhen>good night
19:40<KenjiE20>DNS fail for me, but that might be my net
19:40<amalloy1>no pw for me
19:40<Cadde>Thanks amalloy1
19:41<amalloy1>the zip file has an exe and some folders in it
19:41<amalloy1>so looks like you've succeeded
19:41<OwenS>No COPYING file?
19:41<Cadde>OMG, for real?
19:41<Cadde>Am i going to get raped now?
19:41<amalloy1>i didn't look that closely
19:41<amalloy1>but correct, no copying
19:42<amalloy1>just openttd.exe and some folders
19:42<Cadde>Someone beat me with a stick and tell me what i need to do
19:43<SpComb>make bundle_zip
19:43<KenjiE20>'make bundle' ?
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19:44<planetmaker>Cadde: always use bundle_zip, if you want to distribute stuff
19:44<planetmaker>(or bundle_dmg, ...whatever bundle you like)
19:45<Cadde>hrrrrrr. what?
19:45<planetmaker>or you'll get flamed for not obeying the copyright
19:45*Cadde is confused and scared.
19:45<OwenS>planetmaker, he didn't use mingw to build it...
19:46<planetmaker>doesn't msvc offer similar things?
19:46*OwenS shrugs
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19:47<Cadde>Can't i just add the COPYING and .txt files to the zip?
19:47<Cadde>To i really have to install MinGW
19:47<amalloy1>afaik msvc has a make-like tool
19:48<OwenS>amalloy1, nmake, but it requires nmakefiles ;-)
19:48<planetmaker>of course you can add the docs manually to the zip
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19:48<Cadde>Ofc, if i did install MinGW i wouldn't have to work with VS and that might make things easier later on
19:49<Cadde>Replacing .zip file, don't download it right now.
19:50<Cadde>It now has COPYING and *.txt files. Now the copyright mafia can't touch me and sue me for 30 million SEK
19:50<planetmaker>my bundle folder has COPYING changelog readme ... yeah
19:51<amalloy1>okay, so i got the binary all set. it complained at first that i was missing some newGRFs so i copied my ./data folder from 1.0 into the cargodist folder. now everything works, apparently including newGRFs and cargodist, but i have no music
19:51<planetmaker>Cadde: even if it's not copyright, it's courtesy to acknowledge those who put months of work into it.
19:51<Cadde>planetmaker: Ofc it is
19:51<chaos95>why is it a bad idea to have automatic distribution and default stopping in orders?
19:52<Cadde>It's also courtesy to not take files that have no copyright mention and wipe ones butt with it.
19:52<amalloy1>because then your trains my unintentionally unload passengers at stations they don't want to go to, i believe
19:52<Cadde>chaos95: did you mean CargoDist and Non-stop orders?
19:53<Cadde>amalloy1: No music? The HORROR! (I guess it was compiled without DirectX support)
19:53<amalloy1>unlikely. the sound works
19:54<OwenS>amalloy1, sound doesn't use directx
19:54<OwenS>amalloy1, look at the post. It says music is disabled
19:54<Cadde>The music is using DX 7 in TTD
19:54<amalloy1>what post?
19:55<chaos95>Cadde: yeah; I got a warning saying that at least one cargo type was set to be automatically delivered, and 'new orders are non-stop' was disabled, and that this was a bad idea
19:56<Cadde>chaos95: Yeah, the trains would stop at each station along the line in a network and unload and load the passengers who's destination is further along the line.
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... what do i do with a file called ""?
19:56<Cadde>Cargodist checks if the train has an order going to destination X and if it does it will load the train with passengers intended for destination X
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd commit 3351
19:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by peter1138 :: r3351 trunk/train_gui.c (2005-12-28 09:40:26 UTC)
19:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Make sort criteria selection widgets in player train list consistent with those widgets in other vehicle type lists. (Stops "Total capacity per cargo type" overflowing)
19:57<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: put in your local shelf of the prehistoric collection of software
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think "prehistoric" is the right word ;)
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>unless you define "history" started when i switched to linux :p
19:59<amalloy1>oh, does the binary you pointed me at have progsigs as well?
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i also have installers for 0.4.0 and
20:01<OwenS>If I fish around I can probably find 0.3.5 bnaries...
20:01<planetmaker>I recently found a 0.4.x on an old hard disc of mine...
20:01<OwenS>planetmaker, yeah, but is that from #ottdc's oldskool game? :p
20:02<planetmaker>no, not at all :-)
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>and a ""
20:02<planetmaker>those are on new hard discs ;-)
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>this is my generic "installers from the last 10 years" collection directory
20:03-!-lugo [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately i can't find out anymore from when these files are, as they are all marked "26.06.2006"
20:04<planetmaker>cp -p should be default ;-)
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>which is a few days after my switch to linux
20:04<OwenS>Hmm.. I think my switch date was ~august 2005
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>interestingly, many files in there are newer than that :p
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20:09<amalloy1>it's pretty easy to make cp -p the default, though, on a given system
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20:10<Cadde>So basically, a lot of people here are running *nix
20:10<amalloy1>well, you're playing a game which is an open-source project. surprise! :)
20:10<Cadde>I wish i could too but there are too many things i still use for winblows
20:10<amalloy1>i'm actually running windows, though. but i have cygwin installed
20:10<amalloy1>good enough to get me most of what i want but still do windows gaming
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20:12<Cadde>If eve online would go back to supporting linux i would be close to the tipping point. I would probably run linux as my primary and winblows as my secondary.
20:12*OwenS is actually running Solaris. But i'm odd
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>please... who in this channel is _not_ odd?
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20:33<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that is a lie :p
20:37<__ln__>although... only odd people use irc.
20:38<__ln__>Rubidium: By the way, why did you not speak up when Bjarni was granted access to svn? Why did you not object to it?
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20:41<Yexo>__ln__: a guess from me: bjarni had already svn access before Rubidium joined
20:41<Yexo>@commit 114
20:41<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Commit by bjarni :: r114 trunk/ (2004-08-22 19:40:50 UTC)
20:41<@DorpsGek>Yexo: updated to display merged files (blathijs)
20:42<Yexo>@commit 4788
20:42<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Commit by rubidium :: r4788 /trunk (15 files in 2 dirs) (2006-05-09 08:17:33 UTC)
20:42<@DorpsGek>Yexo: - Codechange: RAILTYPE_{NORMAL,ELECTRIC,...} and RAIL_TYPE_{NORMAL,SIGNAL,...} have nearly the same name, rename RAIL_TYPE_* to RAIL_TILE_* of extra clarity
20:42<Yexo>first commits from both I could find
20:44<__ln__>Fine, although the log is incomplete due to the svn crash.
20:45<Yexo>yes, but if Rubidium would have had access to the old svn then I'd expect him to commit something in the first 4787 revisions of the new svn
20:45<Yexo>the log is not randomly incomplete, the first 925 (or 975?) commits are missing
20:46<Yexo> <- another source of information
20:47<__ln__>Rubidium: Alternatively, why did you not demand Bjarni's svn access to be revoked immediately even after you found out Bjarni is planting unpleasant "surprises" into the code?
20:48<ccfreak2k>Oh, we're at 1.0 apparently.
20:50<OwenS>__ln__, unpleasent surprises?
20:51<amalloy1>does cargodist apply to non-passenger cargo? eg "some of this coal wants to go to power station A, some of it to power station B"?
20:51<OwenS>amalloy1, yes
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: Rubidium "inherited" Bjarni
20:51<amalloy1>neat. should make for an interesting change of approach
20:51<__ln__>OwenS: no, unpleasant
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>and by the time Rubidium got control, it likely was too late anyway
20:52<OwenS>__ln__, what I'm wondering is, what you mean by this
20:52<Yexo>OwenS: it's all in the irc logs from today
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: if my memory does not betray me, basically Rubidium is in charge since Darkvater left
20:53<ccfreak2k>I'd like to know what's going on too.
20:53<ccfreak2k>It sounds juicy.
20:53<__ln__>OwenS: and i was referring to: 12:34 <@Rubidium> Darkvater: yeah, sadly enough we find surprises from Bjarni every few weeks :(
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: and by that time, Bjarni was already starting to go inactive
20:55*OwenS is still curious w.r.t an example of such surprises
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20:57<Eddi|zuHause>[Donnerstag, 15. April 2010] [11:44:48] <Rubidium> Darkvater: yeah, such gems as CVE-2009-4007
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21:01<Eddi|zuHause>you might not remember the maintenance pain that autoreplace was before frosch's rewrite
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21:09<OwenS>If his SVN access has been revoked... would it not also make sense to remove him from the developers group on the forum?
21:09<Yexo>1. I'm not sure his svn access has ever been revoked
21:10<amalloy1>so...i have a general idea of how to build junctions, though not very efficient ones yet. but it seems like overkill to build a huge junction for every station i want trains to stop at, esp if trains have to be able to either turn around or go straight. is there a more lightweight way of doing this?
21:10<Yexo>2. he can't harm the code via the forum
21:10<__ln__>OwenS: AFAIK his access has not been revoked.
21:10<OwenS>Yexo, true, but its somewhat misrepresentation of his ongoing status
21:11<PeterT>Has his modifications to OpenTTD really been that bad?
21:11<Cadde>amalloy1: RoRo
21:11<Yexo>OwenS: true, but the same holds for more people
21:12<Yexo>amalloy1: build a small junction (don't care about crossing tracks) and only improve it (and in the process likely enlarging it) if it's needed?
21:12<OwenS>Yexo, I suppose its just that most projects I'm used to disable repository access for inactive devs for security reasons
21:13<amalloy1>yexo: ah, good point. i'd been imagining that i needed to build perfectly the first time, but of course i don't
21:13<amalloy1>cadde: yes, they are roro stations, but that doesn't avoid the use of bridges or crossovers in order to get trains to turn around after they go through
21:13<Yexo>OwenS: and when is someone inactive exactly? when he hasn't commited for half a year? one year? two years?
21:14<Yexo>amalloy1: personally I find upgrading live junctions one of the most fun parts of building
21:14<OwenS>Yexo, the general policy I've seen seems to be 3 to 6 months. As said, its just disabled rather than revoked
21:14<Cadde>amalloy1: If you'd like to you could host an online game and i can hop in a look at your designs and show you some.
21:14<Yexo>OwenS: would you consider Belugas inactive? his last commit was 14 january 2010
21:15<Cadde>And as yexo said, there is nothing more entertaining than upgrading live heavy traffic junctions
21:15<OwenS>Yexo, more "no commits and missing from IRC" for 3 to 6 months
21:15<Yexo>@seen bjarni
21:15<@DorpsGek>Yexo: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 1 day, 1 hour, 50 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <Bjarni> <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
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21:15<Yexo>7 weeks is not even 2 months
21:16<OwenS>I would say this, however, is a somewhat unusual case?
21:16<Yexo>well, maybe
21:16<Yexo>more old devs have shown up on irc lately
21:17<Yexo>darkvater was here today for example (although i don't think he still has svn access)
21:17<amalloy1>thanks cadde, but i think there will be nat/firewall issues with me hosting and don't want to try and work them out
21:17<Cadde>ok, i could host
21:17<@Belugas>OwenS, your definition of inactivity is shocking me
21:17<Cadde>If your FW is the only issue
21:18<OwenS>Belugas, it would depend upon the project. But more than one project has found one day security exploits inserted into its code by the compromised account of an inactive developer
21:18<amalloy1>it's the only issue i'm aware of; i've managed to join an online game or two. i might have some conflicting newgrfs, though? i don't know how to tell that
21:19<Cadde>Well, i am more concerned over what build you have. openttd 1.0 ?
21:19<Yexo>to host a game you need to open some ports in your router, to join a game you don't need to do that
21:19<amalloy1>yeah, i think so. let me relaunch without cargodist
21:19<OwenS>(And I know a few years back Debian were in the situation where a compromised developer's account caused bogus packages to be uploaded to their security repo)
21:20<amalloy1>yeah, it's 1.0.0
21:21<amalloy1>okay, added you as a server; it says you're offline
21:21<amalloy1>do you want one of my savegames, or start from scratch?
21:21<@Belugas>OwenS, these are bad people.
21:21<Cadde>it up now
21:21<@Belugas>i doubt OpenTTD has ever counted thesesorts of jerks
21:22<amalloy1>i don't have ECS
21:22<@Belugas>well... there ws one once...
21:22<OwenS>Belugas, maybe not. But they exist
21:22<amalloy1>or, indeed, most of those newgrfs
21:22<Cadde>Oh sorry, meant to start without grf
21:22<@Belugas>but hewanted toremove his stuff, only. no bad stuff other wise...
21:22<Cadde>amalloy1: Now
21:22<@Belugas>anyway, me sleep
21:23<@Belugas>me waves bye bye
21:23*Yexo is going to sleep too
21:23<PeterT>good night Belugas
21:23<PeterT>Me also, hehe
21:23*OwenS too
21:24<PeterT>Good night Belugas, Yexo, and OwenS
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: btw, did you think about the time based signalling? i think it's a really useful addition to progsigs
21:25<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, time based? (OK, I can stay awake a few more minutes :P)
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i'm sure i mentoned that before, something like "stay red for X ticks and allow green for Y ticks"... or something date based
21:27<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause, main thing is that then I need to add time-based callbacks, which have caveats (Changing to a different signal type while one still exists would have to be handled carefully, for example)
21:27<OwenS>What for?
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: a) line priorities, b) keeping open windows for mixed fast/slow train lines, c) load balancing
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: things like the openttdcoop "tight packer" can be done with time based signalling
21:29<OwenS>Line priorities: You can implement #ottdc style priorities without the signal track with progsigs
21:30<OwenS>(Though its cumbersome)
21:30<OwenS>Load balancing... I have a cunning plan </blackadder>
21:30<OwenS>keeping open windows: Hmm?
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>time window
21:30<OwenS>I'm not quite following though ;-)
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: prevent slow freight trains from entering the main line when a fast passenger train is scheduled
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>without having to add a timetable for every freight train
21:31<OwenS>Aah, thats an interesting one
21:31<OwenS>I have never touched the timetable interface except in logic constructions ;-)
21:32<OwenS>Major things are that, firstly, programming the conditions could be as complex as the existing interface (-> complex to implement), and time based callback issues
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>example: assume i have a mainline consisting out of 4 evenly spaced signal blocks [long]. and it takes a freight train 10 days to pass one signal block, and a passenger train is scheduled every 40 days. then i want to put a freight train in the first 10 day window, a freight train in the second 10 day window, keep the third 10 day window free, and start the passenger in the fourth 10 day window
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>so i set the freight train signal to "green for 20 days, red for 20 days", and the passenger train signal to "red for 30 days, green for 10 days"
21:37<Eddi|zuHause>and need a way to synchonize them
21:39<OwenS>I suppose I could add an "<in the first 30 out of 40 days>" condition, and then make it so that the current position through a "phase" is the day count since the epoch modulo 40
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21:44<OwenS>Anyway, I bid you all goodnight
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22:10<Cadde>Eddi|zuHause: With progsigs i solve that by making a signal detect when a train is waiting for a train in front of it. Any train that is forcing a train behind it to wait is going to the slow lane. However, i haven't tested this with a situation where there is a complete lockup on the line. In that case every train would take the slow lane.
22:10<Cadde>That is why i have suggested to Owen that we get more details about the train that has passed a progsig.
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's not possible
22:11<Cadde>Or a signal set as the monitor.
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22:11<Cadde>What isn't possible?
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22:15<Eddi|zuHause>a signal cannot have a reference to a train
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>there can even be two trains on the signal at the same time
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>or more, if you have newgrfs
22:16<Cadde>Well, "Can't"... Isn't that a matter of changing code.
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's more than just code
22:16<Cadde>And i am talking about the last train to go past that signal. (Or possibly have a number of variables as a stack)
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's also software design, algorithm complexity and memory usage
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>and if you add that, people will also want information about the train that is waiting at the signal, and that is even mroe impossible
22:18<Cadde>Well, each train has an ID right? I am not talking about passing the entire structure. I am talking about passing the ID so the progsig can query this information on demand.
22:19<Cadde>So that is, once a train pass a progsig or a combo exit (set in the progsig) it will store the id and then there is a condition that can take trainID.maxspeed or likewise.
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22:19<Cadde>However, i am not even remotely aware of how ottd works.
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>but that means you need to store two train ids (2x16 bit) in the map array, even for non-progsig-signals
22:20<Cadde>I am just trying to remain positive as i would love to have this functionality. And if i need it badly enough i might learn everything i need to learn to make it happen.
22:21<Cadde>To me, impossible is nothing. It's just a matter of how much work it takes to make it happen whether it's worth the trouble.
22:22<Cadde>And i am looking at this from my experience with Wiremod. In there you can program virtual CPU's and share data with anything placed in the game.
22:22<Cadde>There is even Wire super mario bros... So i just like to think that nothing is impossible.
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but they don't have a 100MB game state
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>(i presume)
22:23<Cadde>No, they have unlimited space (to the point where Source crashes)
22:23<Cadde>Well, not in the memory leak sense though
22:24<Cadde>More in the, your computer is about to explode but we prefer if the game crashes :D
22:29<chaos95>I think what Eddi means is, the state in those games most likely takes up significantly less memory than in openttd
22:29<Cadde>chaos95: You might be right, i thought of it the wrong way.
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 16 00:00:12 2010