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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-03

---Logopened Thu Nov 03 00:00:50 2011
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02:34<Elukka>"The Israeli cabinet was reported on Wednesday to be debating whether to launch air strikes on Iranian nuclear sites in the coming weeks. The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and the defence minister, Ehud Barak, are lobbying in favour of action, but other senior ministers are urging caution."
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03:41<Terkhen>good morning
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04:31<appe>Elukka: what on earth
04:31<appe>Elukka: that's horrible
04:31<appe>where israel finds the need to fight everything all the freakin' time is beyond me'
04:32<Elukka>and you just know their big brother uncle sam would get in on it
04:33<Elukka>i'm kinda worried the US will want to start another war as obama has been promising that they'll be out of afghanistan very soon and then there was the accusation that iran was assassinating someone on US soil that sounded an awful lot like a possibly made up casus belli
04:33<appe>but wait a second
04:33<appe>why on earth would that be official news?
04:34<Elukka>which part?
04:34<TyrHeimdall>probably the part where they where debating on bombing Iran
04:35<Elukka>it might be a rather public debate in israel
04:35<@planetmaker>what makes a piece of news "official"?
04:36<Elukka>it's funny how a country that sometimes says stupid shit is considered a 'rogue state' and a menace to everyone while a country that regularly invades other countries and gets away with illegal wars that kill hundreds of thousands, are considered the good guys
04:36<appe>Elukka: that they "might" bomb nuclear siols.
04:36<@planetmaker>appe: no country had since 1953 fight for its survival literally more than Israel. Just think of 1967...
04:37<Elukka>iran doesn't have nuclear silos
04:37<__ln__>Elukka: that's because they are the good guys
04:37<appe>"it's survival"?
04:37<@planetmaker>its survival
04:37<Elukka>ln, how so
04:37<appe>does iran plan to invade israel?
04:38<Elukka>not as far as i know
04:38<@planetmaker>according to Iran's president, Israel has to be exterminated
04:38<appe>i dont get it, and that might be the pascifist swede in me, but some people should chill the fuck out and stop bickering at each other.
04:38<@planetmaker>and wiped off the map
04:38<Elukka>iran's president is not actually iran's head of state
04:38<@planetmaker>hello dihedral
04:38<appe>and that goes for both iran, israel and all the other ass face countries down there.
04:38<Elukka>ahmadinejad is only relevant because foreigners listen to him
04:39<dihedral>appe, join #politics
04:39<@planetmaker>Elukka: you actually followed events there and talked to (exil-)Iranians?
04:39<appe>no, ill just rage and quit.
04:39<@planetmaker>It's not quite like that
04:39<Elukka>i mean, i'm not intimately familiar with this
04:39<appe>lots of wars here in sweden
04:39<appe>we plan to invade denmark.
04:39<appe>(in silence, with trains)
04:39<@planetmaker>what makes you believe then that Ahmadimeschad does not wield power?
04:39<TyrHeimdall>appe: just becouse of you I'm gonna build a railway with a depot in each end and ram 2 trains into each other
04:40<appe>TyrHeimdall: !
04:40<@planetmaker>or who did smite the reform movement 2 years ago?
04:40<Elukka>i guess he might have some power, but he's not head of state as people think
04:40<Elukka>oh, actually they call the president the head of state
04:40<appe>that reminds me, there is something wrong with the crasching trains in openttd
04:40<Elukka>alright but he's not the main guy :P
04:40<appe>you should build an "area effect" depending on the train size
04:41<Elukka>oh nvm they don't
04:41<Elukka>"Unlike some other countries, for example the United States, in Iran the office of president does not bestow full control over foreign policy, the armed forces, or the nuclear policy of the Iranian state, which are ultimately under the control of the Supreme Leader."
04:41<appe>a fully loaded 64 cart steel train should fuck up elevation and cities when it crasches.
04:42<Elukka>iran doesn't seem like a particularly nice government, but it doesn't seem nearly as dangerous in practice as the US and israel
04:42<TyrHeimdall>I see an addon comming. Nuclear waste transportation and desposal
04:42<TyrHeimdall>imagine the trainwrecks of that
04:42<TyrHeimdall>"your train crashed, the west side of the map is now dead for the next 1000 years"
04:43<appe>i dont really know why people are still fighting down there
04:43<appe>it's religion or ..what?
04:43<@planetmaker>religion is always a pretense in this context. Wars are fought for power
04:44<@planetmaker>Ressources. Control
04:44<@planetmaker>Religion is just a nice excuse there
04:44<TyrHeimdall>I would go so far as to say "ego"
04:44<@planetmaker>to make the populace actually fight
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04:45<Elu>blah, stupid connection
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04:46<TyrHeimdall>I think the openttd community should rule the world
04:46<TyrHeimdall>it kjnows enough about resource management and logistics
04:46-!-Elu is now known as Elukka
04:47<Elukka>so... that map probably explains the root of the israeli-palestine conflict
04:47<Elukka>it's more complicated than that, though
04:48<@planetmaker>안녕하세요 Celestar
04:48<appe>what i see, both sides are just as hostile to the other
04:48<Celestar>can't read Korean writing :P
04:48<@planetmaker>:-) I unfortunately cannot read much of it either
04:49<@planetmaker>I should, though :-(
04:49<Celestar>why's that?
04:50<@planetmaker>would feel right [TM] ;-)
04:50<Celestar>I can read quite some Hiragana.
04:50<Celestar>not that I understand the words I'm reading :P
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04:51<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> "The Israeli cabinet was reported on Wednesday to be debating whether to launch air strikes on Iranian nuclear sites in the coming weeks. The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and the defence minister, Ehud Barak, are lobbying in favour of action, but other senior ministers are urging caution." <-- it's not like this is a totally new plan. this scenario has been around for years
04:51<@planetmaker>And I would not need to think that long how to write 수원 when filling out some official forms
04:52<@planetmaker>though the Korean script is actually a quite simple syllable one. It's only 24 characters.
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04:54<@planetmaker>sure. Maybe you should change the pw :-P
04:54<__ln__>and korean could be a useful language when spending holidays in north korea.
04:54<Elu>i think a lot of the issues in the middle east come from foreign meddling
04:54<Elu>the israel-palestine conflict was essentially created by the UN
04:54<@planetmaker>__ln__: also in South Korea it helps A LOT
04:54<Elu>afghanistan used to be a nice country... then two superpowers invaded it within a few decades
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04:55<@planetmaker>Even though English is taught in school, it's hard to get along with English only
04:55-!-Elu is now known as Elukka
04:56<Qantourisc>How do you handly all those vechicals ?
04:56<Qantourisc>Or just I just use trains ? :)
04:56<@planetmaker>Use helicopters :-P
04:58<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: if you group your vehicles and use shared orders, it might help a lot
04:58<Qantourisc>Still feeld messy :)
04:59<Celestar>planetmaker: same goes for Japan.
04:59<@planetmaker>quite true
04:59<Celestar>planetmaker: it's ok in Tokyo, it's hardly bearable in Osaka, but outside those places ....
05:00<__ln__>planetmaker: indeed, English is quite much useless as near as in Belgium or Poland.
05:00<Qantourisc>in our country 2 languages are teached; yet it's hard to get by with either of them :)
05:00<@planetmaker>Well. Kyoto and Kobe worked with English, too. But yes... you gotta have means to "navigate" through the cases where English won't help. But one has hand and feet ;-)
05:00<Qantourisc>schools sucks for languages
05:00<__ln__>Qantourisc: *taught
05:01<Qantourisc>then what is teached ?
05:01<@planetmaker>__ln__: I only need to go out of the door to stop wondering how far English will get me ;-)
05:01<__ln__>Qantourisc: it's ungrammatical.
05:01<Elukka>'teached' isn't a word :P
05:01<Celestar>planetmaker: it's mandatory to know the Kanji for tokyo :P
05:02<Celestar>planetmaker: so that if you get lost, you can get on a train to toyko :P
05:02<Qantourisc>Elukka: a ok :)
05:02<@planetmaker>haha :-) @ Celestar
05:02<@planetmaker>yes, it helps a lot to know the Kanji of the place you want to go
05:03<Terkhen>you guys talk a lot
05:03<Celestar>funny thing is To-Kyo is different from Kyo-to :P
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05:03<@planetmaker>Terkhen: with the notable difference between "talk" and "say" ;-)
05:03<Celestar>東京 and 京都
05:04<@planetmaker>Celestar: of course :-). But that's not Kanji.
05:04<Qantourisc>Celestar: and why is this ?
05:04<Terkhen>it just surprised me to find so many lines after going for a coffee
05:04<Celestar>well ....
05:04<Celestar>different meanings.
05:04<@planetmaker>That's a name and there often the Chinese(?) symbols are used. And ^^^
05:05<Qantourisc>Celestar: i mean the sound is the same, but the symbols not ?
05:05<Celestar>welcome to Japanese :D
05:06<@peter1138>yeah, like "wear" and "where"
05:06<Qantourisc>god ... languages SUCK
05:06<@planetmaker>:-) Qantourisc, you're surprised? You think European languages don't have that?
05:06<Qantourisc>Well in dutch, they are weeding them out :)
05:06<Qantourisc>where possible
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05:07<@peter1138>dutch isn't a language
05:07<@peter1138>it's a tongue-twister
05:07<Terkhen>we should go back to grunting and gesturing
05:07<Terkhen>at least irc backlogs would be shorter that way
05:07*MNIM grunts and gestures at peter1138 to throw a couple of /very/ rude expressions at him
05:07<@peter1138>so it would be like Sacro then?
05:08<MNIM>I think I like scolding someone in dutch better
05:08<Celestar>Dutch is when a drunk Englishman attempts to speak German *runs and hides*
05:08<@planetmaker>Dutch? Nah. Other languages are far more tongue twisting... Just got an invitation to a dinner with борщ
05:09<MNIM>well, we do have a couple of combinations which we only share with icelandic
05:09<MNIM>borscht isn't that bad
05:09<MNIM>try pronouncing 'herfst'
05:09<Qantourisc>peter1138: hehe, a tongue twister ? how's that ? :)
05:10<Qantourisc>I know 1 language where you read what you speak ... unfortanatly; it's barely spoken :)
05:10<@planetmaker>german? ;-)
05:10<Celestar>10 PRINT HELLO WOLRD
05:10<Celestar>20 GOTO 10
05:10<@peter1138>Syntax error at line 10
05:11<Celestar>rofl peter1138 :P
05:11<Celestar>cba to type the quotation marks :P
05:11<Qantourisc>Well ... he IS right !
05:12<Qantourisc>Planning on translating openttd ... when i find more time :))
05:12<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: just register as translator
05:12<@planetmaker>easy to do via web-interface
05:12<Qantourisc>as the language is so obscure
05:13<Qantourisc>i need to translate 50% before i can check in
05:13<@planetmaker>not at all
05:13<Qantourisc>let me fetch that mail
05:13<@planetmaker>>50% before it becomes selectable as ingame as default
05:13<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> borscht <-- technically it should be borschtsch
05:13<@planetmaker>and available to "everyone"
05:14<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: only in German translation
05:14<@planetmaker>(yes, I looked up the English one)
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>щ <-- that's the letter schtsch
05:14<@planetmaker>I know
05:14<Qantourisc>planetmaker: i contacted
05:14<@peter1138>and h is the letter aitch
05:14<Celestar>Visual Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
05:14<Qantourisc>planetmaker: he said i need to get a large chunk done, before it would be added
05:15<Celestar>WTF is a Visual Beginner?
05:15<@peter1138>before it would be added for everyone to use.
05:15<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: yes, as available for the general public
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: the opposite of an abstract beginner?
05:16<@planetmaker>but available for translation in the webinterface (and not yet to the general public with every build) the requirements are MUCh less strict
05:16<Qantourisc>planetmaker: "as avaible for the ..." i understand the setence, but not withing it's concept
05:16<Qantourisc>planetmaker: ow .... that's intresting
05:16<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: there are the languages you can usually select OpenTTD to use in the game options
05:16<@planetmaker>and there are the "unfinished" ones
05:17<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: Abstract Basic? :P
05:17<@planetmaker>which are not :-)
05:17<@peter1138># f... i love boobs though
05:17<@peter1138># i just really love them
05:17<Qantourisc>planetmaker: i'll try to remember this ones i get more free time, (as soon as my financial situation improves)
05:17<MNIM>now hey, this is somebody that nobody can disagree with
05:18<Qantourisc>but right now, i MUST relax ... or i'll drop dead before that situation ever does ...
05:19<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: improving financial situation usually corresponds with reducing 'free time' ;-)
05:19<appe>i havent relaxed in three years
05:19<appe>i havent had vacation in that time either.
05:19<Qantourisc>planetmaker: currenty, we are bound to 1 customer ... who is paying just enough ...
05:19<appe>Qantourisc: what are you working with?
05:19<Qantourisc>improving the situation, would mean get a backup plan
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>you guys certainly have the wrong jobs
05:19<appe>i love my job
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05:19<Qantourisc>so we can update the price
05:20<Qantourisc>appe: "what" ?
05:20<Qantourisc>appe: i quess that would be a keyboard
05:20<appe>Qantourisc: yes, what is your occupation.
05:20<Qantourisc>To be frank, I can nolonger stand the incompetence there :/
05:21<@planetmaker>10:19 appe: i love my job <-- as long as that's true, it's the "right job" :-)
05:21<appe>or, let's say i love my jobs.
05:21<Qantourisc>I like IT
05:21<Celestar>I like candy
05:21<Qantourisc>I just don't like the pressure in it :)
05:21<appe>i own and run a call center
05:21<appe>and it's fantastic.
05:21<Qantourisc>and the icompetance :/
05:21<appe>lots of work, but fantastic
05:22<Qantourisc>today i got a phonecall ...
05:22<Qantourisc>we rebooted the server ... because we had network issue, now things are still broken
05:22<Qantourisc>(note it was a Linux server)
05:22*Celestar proudly owns no apple products :P
05:22<@planetmaker>err... sounds like the windoze solution
05:23<Celestar>yeah, very much so
05:23<Qantourisc>and quess what ...
05:23<Qantourisc>it still doesn't work :)
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05:23*planetmaker would not talk here now w/o an apple product :-P
05:23*MNIM owns one apple product, sadly
05:23<Qantourisc>I like apple, and I hate them at the same time.
05:23<@planetmaker>nor actually have written a single newgrf or ottd patch without...
05:23<MNIM>I also have to frequently help my dad with his imac.
05:24<Qantourisc>But I usually ask myself what is bad about a product, not what is good.
05:24<@planetmaker>they're quite good and quite bad at the same time. In different ways
05:24<Qantourisc>I prefer products that don't suck, rather then products that suck and excel
05:24<Qantourisc>The most troublesome: openness
05:25<appe>i do like the imac
05:25<Qantourisc>Especially a problem with phones (in general)
05:25<@planetmaker>what's wrong about "open"?
05:25<Qantourisc>planetmaker: apple isn't open enough
05:25<Qantourisc>well open i don't care about
05:25<Qantourisc>not standard enough
05:25<Qantourisc>and also not open
05:26<Qantourisc>the mayor block ... where can i buy mac to run on my pc ?
05:26<@planetmaker>certainly more open than windows...
05:26<Terkhen>so open == good quality?
05:26<Qantourisc>open != good quality
05:26<appe>openttd = good quality
05:26<@planetmaker>open =!=> good quality
05:26<@planetmaker>good quality =!=> open
05:26<__ln__>Qantourisc: buy a mac mini, it fits nicely on top of almost any PC.
05:27<appe>open <insert goods train on maglev> good quality
05:27<@planetmaker>closed source =!=> good quality
05:27<@planetmaker>and vice versa
05:27<Qantourisc>__ln__: why ... it's illigical (from my point of view)
05:27<Qantourisc>actually i'd verry mutch like to run MacOSx to learn it ...
05:27<Qantourisc>however ... i CANT
05:27<appe>who needs a mac mini when you can buy an aspire revo?
05:27<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: it's feasible ;-)
05:27<__ln__>Qantourisc: you can, just buy a mac and you can run mac os x.
05:27<Qantourisc>yea i know ... but is that waht we want ?
05:28<Terkhen>now, "expensive" is something I can understand :P
05:28<Celestar>as long as I don't have control .. it's bad.
05:28<@planetmaker>e.g. openttd's CF runs OSX inside a VM...
05:28<appe>id like ottd on ipad..
05:28<Qantourisc>__ln__: why would i want to buy hardware .. i already have hardware
05:28<@planetmaker>appe: it's neen done... but we must not upload to AppStore
05:28<__ln__>Qantourisc: because your current hardware cannot run what you would want to.
05:29<@peter1138>need a new modem/router/ap :S
05:29<@planetmaker>which is for example one of the things I don't like with apple at all
05:29<Qantourisc>__ln__: it can
05:29<Qantourisc>and if it runs openttd where are 50% there :)
05:29<__ln__>Qantourisc: i think you just said it can't.
05:29<Qantourisc>ow ... but whoos fault is that ?
05:29<Qantourisc>my hardware's or macs ?
05:30<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: if it's only about openttd you don't have to swap your OS. Most likely
05:30<@planetmaker> ;-)
05:30<__ln__>Qantourisc: if your PC can't run an Xbox game, whose fault is that?
05:30<Qantourisc>an xbox game is not an OS /)
05:30<@planetmaker>it is
05:31<@planetmaker>or rather the xbox-os
05:31<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: as said, it's feasible to run osx in a VM
05:31<__ln__>Qantourisc: fine, but that's not the current Xbox 360.
05:31<Qantourisc>planetmaker: do you know what hacks i have to apply ?
05:31<@planetmaker>no(t all)
05:32<Celestar>wtf are you on about?
05:33<Qantourisc>Celestar: running mac on pc hardware
05:33<Celestar>run FreeBSD?
05:33<@planetmaker>:-) Not quite identical
05:33<@peter1138>is it not possible to provide a download for openttd on ipad?
05:33<Qantourisc>Celestar: OpenBSD ?
05:33<@peter1138>or are they locked down so that you can only get things from the store?
05:34<Celestar>peter1138: are they?!
05:34<Qantourisc>planetmaker: you can download stuff, that allows to download stuff
05:34<@peter1138>i don't know
05:34<@planetmaker>iPad iirc allows to download. iPhone not and needs jail-breaking
05:34<Qantourisc>but appstore doesn't allow adding extra mirrors
05:34<Celestar>what's the point of the iPhone without jail-breaking?
05:35<Qantourisc>Celestar: fancywhere
05:35<Celestar>get a nice BMW 6 Series if you need fancywear :P
05:35<Qantourisc>the sad thing atm, a jailbreaked iphone atm is the best phone option atm ...
05:35<Celestar>I don't think so
05:35<Qantourisc>still waiting on a proper phone OS :/
05:36<Celestar>I think the Sensation beats the iPhone 4 heands down
05:36<Celestar>so does the SII
05:36<Qantourisc>os ?
05:36<Qantourisc>did they fix there bugs yet ?
05:39<Qantourisc>android is becomming an option
05:39<Qantourisc>still pitty they decided on the java stack
05:41<Qantourisc>the most important ascpects of a phone for me are: Security, compatiblity with default protocols (imap, caldav, carddav, ical, ...), ability to cram a SSH client on it, not needing to jailbrake, able to upload custom updated rom EASILY, a proper OS
05:43<Qantourisc>BTW what's a good train station width ?
05:43<@peter1138>whatever fits
05:43<Qantourisc>so as wide as you can ? :)
05:43<@peter1138>i always end up adding platforms
05:43<@peter1138>gets tricky in towns :)
05:44<Qantourisc>peter1138: preblock the area :)
05:44<Qantourisc>probably cheaper then flatting half the town
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05:55<Qantourisc>How do i demolish PART of a station ?
05:55<Qantourisc>and not the entire thing ?
05:56<Celestar>hold ... ctrl?
05:56<Celestar>some button
05:56<Celestar>FFS I cannot remember O_o
05:56<Celestar>go to build station and press R
05:56<MNIM>Qantourisc: select the build station tool, then press the bulldozer.
05:57<Qantourisc>costy mistake at this time of the game :)
05:58<Qantourisc>btw can i put 2 7l trains on a 14l station ?
05:59<@planetmaker>not in the way you probably mean that
06:00<Qantourisc>planetmaker: 2 stations stopped at the same time
06:00<Qantourisc>zo <station><train/><train/></station>
06:00<Qantourisc>Wow the first time in my life i found a usefull life for xml :)
06:00<@planetmaker>stations are immobile ;-)
06:01<Qantourisc>euu yes 2 trains stopped :)
06:01<@planetmaker>two trains always need to be separated by a signal (or have non-crossing paths in a signal block with path signals).
06:01<@planetmaker>Thus on one track in a station does not fit that case
06:02<@peter1138>i miss those early days of cargo dest & subsidiaries/infrastructure sharing...
06:04<@peter1138>hmm, might be making that up :)
06:09<Qantourisc>peter1138: sharing ?
06:09<Qantourisc>peter1138: and would you get paid for the tracks the competition used ?
06:09<Qantourisc>if so: SWEET
06:09<Qantourisc>PS, if any has a "co-op" server running
06:09<Qantourisc>with FICS or ecs :)
06:10<Qantourisc>and wants to see more life :)
06:12<@peter1138>Qantourisc, yup
06:12<Qantourisc>peter1138: really ?
06:12<Qantourisc>peter1138: 24/24 7/7 ?
06:12<Qantourisc>peter1138: there is still room on the map right ? =)
06:13<@planetmaker>peter1138: then... we should re-implement infrastructure sharing a 3rd time? This time for real? ;-)
06:13<b_jonas>why, we already have road and buoy sharing
06:13<Qantourisc>peter1138: servername ?
06:13<b_jonas>isn't that enough?
06:13<Qantourisc>b_jonas: NO
06:14<@peter1138>Qantourisc, it's a 5 year old patch
06:14<b_jonas>also we share the sea and the air
06:14<@planetmaker>3 ;-)
06:14<Qantourisc>the mayor PITA, is tracks take room
06:14<Qantourisc>peter1138: i don't follow, i need it for your server ?
06:14<@peter1138>well, started 5 years ago :p
06:14<@peter1138>what server?
06:14<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: no such server exists. and if so, you'd need a custom-compiled client
06:14<b_jonas>Qantourisc: that's why I'm now playing with a map with fewer industries, that way I have more space for everything
06:15<Qantourisc>"PS, if any has a "co-op" server running /n with FICS or ecs :) /n and wants to see more life :)" -> "peter1138: Qantourisc, yup"
06:15<@Yexo>Qantourisc: peter1138 answered "yes" to your question about "Sharing? and would you get paid?", not to "has anyone a server running"
06:15<Qantourisc>Yexo: i thougged so :)
06:15<Qantourisc>peter1138: also add the option to flag WHAT can be shared
06:15<Qantourisc>peter1138: and a price for using it :)
06:15<@peter1138>planetmaker, never looked at the IS code
06:16<@peter1138>have played it though, a while ago. what does it do wrong?
06:16<Qantourisc>So anyone else for the siestion ""PS, if any has a "co-op" server running /n with FICS or ecs :) /n and wants to see more life on their server:)"
06:16<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: the problems are not the ideas what (generally) should be feasible. But how to solve corner-cases and avoid exploits
06:16<Qantourisc>planetmaker: corner cases ?
06:16<Qantourisc>planetmaker: exploits: let the player open their tracks
06:16<@Yexo>Qantourisc: have you checked the openttdcoop servers? Not sure what grfs they use though
06:17<Qantourisc>openttdcoop are restrictive no ?
06:17<@planetmaker>coop welcome server should run only bananas grfs
06:17<@Yexo>everyone can play there
06:17<@Yexo>both ecs and firs are on bananas, so that doesn't help here :p
06:17<@planetmaker>the other, might require some extra sometimes. Available as bundled download, though
06:17<@planetmaker>See link in #openttdcoop
06:17<Qantourisc>they are not "standard" gfrx ?
06:18<@planetmaker>but the PS only rarely runs ECS or FIRS
06:18<@planetmaker>the stable server does so much more often
06:18<@Yexo>Qantourisc: no grf is standard
06:18<V453000>ECS is never used on either of those ;)
06:18<Qantourisc>with standard i mean in the online repo's :)
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06:18<@planetmaker>the PublicServer sometimes uses (still) other, old NewGRFs
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>"feature" of the day: OSX's terminal application can be accelerated by deleting the system logs
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>now if that's not windows-y :p
06:23<@planetmaker>ehm... ?
06:23<@planetmaker>is that so?
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>that page is scaring me...
06:24<@planetmaker>me, too
06:25<Noldo>"rm is dangerous to newbs"
06:28<@planetmaker>sounds as sane as the instructions for homebrew
06:28<@planetmaker>which kinda "require" exclusive access to /usr/local
06:28<@planetmaker>and it's "easy to use" oh yeah
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>"1 - 0 < 0 is an OR construct" <-- wtf? this is total nonsense...
06:29<@planetmaker>it si
06:31<@peter1138>toyland map
06:31<@peter1138>with many 'trees'
06:31<@peter1138>is... blurgh
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: original toyland or opengfx toyland?
06:42*appe eats peter1138 with caviar
06:45<appe>hm, what an exciting freud moment i just had
06:45<appe>the reason i said caviar was because i was thinking about family guy, and the episode "peter, peter, caviar eater".
06:45<appe>but i didnt realize that but after i said it.
06:46<appe>the mind is some freaky stuff.
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>i should feel lucky that i have no clue what you just said
06:57<Elukka>Eddi - i know it's not finished, but i giggled at "Axle scheme: Candyfloss"
06:57<Elukka>in cets
06:57<Elukka>and all those steamers have plastic axles! what is this, ddr piko?
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: which openttd version?
07:02<@Yexo>too old :)
07:02<@Yexo>you need r23045 or newer
07:04<Elukka>i see
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: and none of my DDR Piko vehicles have plastic axles :p
07:05<Elukka>i have some really cheap piko ones that i think might be from the period
07:05<Elukka>they have plastic wheels and axles
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>wheels maybe, but not usually axles...
07:11<b_jonas>plastic axles? what scale are those used at?
07:11<Elukka>really cheap HO, apparently
07:12<b_jonas>I see
07:12<Elukka>speaking of modern trains... what really bugs me are visible mold lines
07:12<Elukka>you'd think for a 300 eur locomotive someone at some point in production could have spent a minute removing them
07:12<Elukka>it's really trivial
07:12<Elukka>err, *model trains
07:13<Elukka>trivial before it's painted, anyway
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>the most expensive model i have has a price tag of "EVP 116,- M"
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately it doesn't run well
07:27<Elukka>mine (well, the two of them) hover around the 200 eur price range which is a tad more than i can comfortably afford
07:27<Elukka>i figure i want to have a hobby if i at all can, though
07:27<b_jonas>yes, having a hobby is a good idea
07:27<b_jonas>at least I think so
07:29<Elukka>you can manage cheaper, but i like fancy stuff like sound and detail
07:38<b_jonas>ah, so that's a qualifier, not the unit of measurement
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>no, "M" is the unit
07:40<@planetmaker>(Blech) Mark :-P
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think "Alu" Mark is a more common name :)
07:40<@planetmaker>might be, yes
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>although you'd only need that qualifier after the borders opened
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07:48<NamNT>thank you very much for the game
07:48<NamNT>i finally managed to beat Road Runner AI today
07:48<NamNT>it's probably a child play to you all
07:49<NamNT>but i feel good, heh
07:50<Celestar>new VW Up! test on the highwa
07:50<Celestar>at 140km/h it's fuel consumption is around 6.5l/100km
07:51<Celestar>I manage that with a 313HP BMW 535d as well.
07:51*Celestar is not impressed
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07:56<BCMM>is it possible, when loading a savegame, to choose which company to control?
07:56<BCMM>(the game was saved during a multiplayer session)
07:56<NamNT>(a shameless plug due to overhyperactivity after winning against Road Runner)
07:57<NamNT>BCMM, just curious, how long does one multiplayer game usually last?
07:57<BCMM>depends on the server
07:57<BCMM>i've been playing Luukland's Citybuilder servers, which take a little less than three hours
07:58<BCMM>i don't really play other multiplayer
07:58<NamNT>3 hours
07:58<NamNT>DotA takes about an hour
07:58<NamNT>Heroes of Might and Magic a whole day :-D
07:58<BCMM>citybuilder is where the objective is to grow a city by providing it with various cargo, rather than to make the most money
07:59<NamNT>i once managed to grow a city to "overtake" three other surrounding towns
07:59<BCMM>so i have a savegame from the end of a citybuilder game, and want to make some modifications to my rail network just to see what happens
07:59<BCMM>but when i load the game, i don't end up controlling the right player
08:00<Noldo>I think you can cheat yourself into any company
08:00<@planetmaker>BCMM: use the company cheat
08:00<BCMM>planetmaker: ah! thank you
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08:10<appe>i like citybuilding
08:10<appe>feels like contributing
08:10<appe>though, a thing i dont like with the current core towns are the amount of people/square you can get in
08:10<appe>it's way too little
08:11<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> at 140km/h it's fuel consumption is around 6.5l/100km <-- i guess that's less than my 18 year old renault...
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>hm... something broke the stuck trains patch...
08:12<appe>the volvo v50 does less the .65 per ten kilometers of highway
08:13<appe>a normal 1 1/2 tonne car built after 2010 should not reach over .5, unless its a bugatti veyron or a scania truck.
08:13<appe>on highway drive, that is.
08:14<NamNT>how do you build a highway?
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... weird... something removed all changes to src/rail_map.h ... why would it do that?
08:16<@planetmaker>a hg revert src/rail_map.h is supposed to do that ;-)
08:16<MNIM>appe: that's a fast truck, if it's as fast as a buggatti :P
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: unlikely in an svn checkout
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i guess there was some stray change in another patch, that wasn't supposed to be there
08:17<appe>MNIM: hehe
08:18<appe>MNIM: fun fact: the bugatti veyron uses it's full 100 litre fuel tank in twelve minutes while driving in the top speed gear.
08:18<appe>the tires must be changed in fifteen..
08:19<appe>that's what you get with a million dollars.
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08:23<MNIM>...only 100l?
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>now find a stretch of autobahn where you can actually drive that fast without disturbance...
08:23<@planetmaker>A14 between Halle and Magdeburg ;-)
08:24<appe>you cant
08:24<@planetmaker>or A27 between Walsrode and Bremen
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08:24<appe>407km/h is not a safe speed, and wouldnt be allowed on the free parts of the autobahn, i guess
08:24<@planetmaker>it would
08:24<appe>that's like ..100 meters a second or something.
08:24<@planetmaker>there's no speed limit in that parts I quoted
08:25<appe>well, the lack of speed limit does not exceed reckless driving
08:25<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> A14 between Halle and Magdeburg ;-) <-- are you insane? that stretch is *overfilled* with slow trucks, often overtaking each other
08:25<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: usually not when I drive there. It uses to be the most empty strecht of highway. Especially sundays
08:25<appe>and i guess the german police has higher priorities on safe driving, when there are no physical speed limits
08:26<appe>if i were a cop, id stop it. or at least wave enthusiasticly.
08:26<@planetmaker>appe: they'd have no grounds to stop you
08:26<@planetmaker>unless you really pose a danger other than driving fast
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>appe: speed alone does not constitute reckless driving
08:27<@planetmaker>appe: it's Germany. There the unlimited speed on highways is kinda considered a fundamental liberty ;-)
08:28<appe>what is the human response time? a second and a half?
08:28<appe>that's 350 meters in veyron top speed
08:28<@planetmaker>no. 300msec
08:28<@planetmaker>at most
08:28<@planetmaker>when you're attentive
08:28<appe>between realizing and braking?
08:28<@planetmaker>rather 200msec
08:28<MNIM>not for your usual city-driving idiot
08:29<@planetmaker>though of course not, if you're lazy and unattentive
08:29<MNIM>but somebody doing 100m/s is not inclined to be lazy and inattentive
08:29<MNIM>well, unless you're a jet pilot
08:29<@planetmaker>MNIM: I'd not bet on that
08:30<appe>trying to achieve the veyron top speed on the autobahn feels inattentive as it is.
08:30<appe>air fields *pro tip*
08:31<MNIM>most international airports don't go a lot past 4000m
08:31<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: you beat me to making such a comment :P
08:31<MNIM>4000m is not a lot of space to achieve 400kmh
08:31<TrueBrain>what a bullshit did that guy wrote ... if you don't know anything about C(++), it is mostly better to shut the fuck up :D
08:32<MNIM>most jets in fact do not get that fast.
08:32<b_jonas>MNIM: you mean on the ground?
08:32<MNIM>well, within 4000m.
08:32<@planetmaker>take-off speed usually is quite a bit slower than 400km/h
08:32<b_jonas>I mean, in the air they usually go 900 km/h
08:32<MNIM>take-off is 300 at max for commercial flights
08:33<appe>MNIM: that reminds me of the fantastic top gear challange.
08:33<appe>MNIM: jet fighter vs. veyron.
08:33<MNIM>ah yeah.
08:33<appe>that might be the coolest thing a man can do
08:33<MNIM>veyron has more acceleration below 100kmh, but a jet's power output increases with speed
08:33<appe>that, and driving a nuclear bomb filled freight train into a mountain
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08:34<@planetmaker>appe: you should just see how a nuclear waste transport by train happens to work here ;-)
08:34<appe>MNIM: as seen in the race. the veyron is a lot quicker the first fifty meters, to later be completely dwarfed.
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08:36<Eddi|zuHause><appe> trying to achieve the veyron top speed on the autobahn feels inattentive as it is. <-- that's why usual commercial cars are capped at 240km/h, even if they could go faster
08:37<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: I heared it's 250 km/h, not that it matters much
08:38<MNIM>well, in germany at least :P
08:40<appe>Eddi|zuHause: hehe, and yet, the veyron is limited to 407..
08:40<appe>i wonder how fast it would actually go
08:40<MNIM>I think at some time past 400 it'll gain a positive vs
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08:41<MNIM>which isn't good in something that does not have wings :P
08:41<MNIM>vertical speed
08:41<MNIM>sorry, aviation lingo.
08:41<appe>that might not end well.
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>there was a show where they tried when a speed measurement fails in a way that the car is not on the photo anymore
08:41<appe>wasnt that the case with the old mclaren f1?
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>and it was something like 270km/h
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08:44<appe>MNIM: if i remember correctly, the german 'gumpert' acheived some speed limit until it basicly flipped in the air.
08:44<@planetmaker>appe: if you build a car which lifts off at a certain speed it's ill-constructed.
08:45<@planetmaker>with the right spoilers it'll be pressed down to the road the faster it goes
08:45<appe>well, neither the veyron nor gumpert can achieve those speeds with the normal limiter.
08:45<appe>and i guess that wasnt the case with the mcf1.
08:48<appe>ah, here we are
08:48<MNIM>planetmaker: not so. car design is limited by the fact that the car body itself is a huge lifting body in itself.
08:48<appe>"At Petit Le Mans race in Road Atlanta, the 911 GT1 '98 of Yannick Dalmas made a spectacular backward flip and landed rear first before hitting the side barriers, as did the BMW V12 LMR at the same race in 2000, and most infamously the Mercedes-Benz CLR at Le Mans in 1999."
08:48<appe>you know you are fast when your car is flying.
08:49<MNIM>this lifting aspect of a car is simply not possible to completely remove.
08:49<MNIM>plus, there's the detrimental ground interactions.
08:50<@planetmaker>hello Belugas
08:50<appe>MNIM: i was wondering, doesnt scaling of the cars size affect what speed you can achieve?
08:50<@Belugas>hi hi planetmaker :)
08:50<MNIM>only in a limited way.
08:50<appe>MNIM: that is, a car with x size and y "push to the ground", gets a bigger maximum speed with scaling?
08:51<MNIM>well, you got to remember that one can only scale a car so much
08:51<appe>yes, of course
08:51<appe>they veyron is not that big, though
08:51<MNIM>for other vehicles, the case definitely implies.
08:51<appe>two tonnes, or something.
08:51<MNIM>however, aircraft and ships do not have to bother with rolling resistance
08:52<MNIM>which is a major component in solid ground-based transport.
08:52<appe>rolling resistance?
08:52<MNIM>a wheel rolls over the ground
08:52<MNIM>rolling drag would perhaps be a better word
08:52<appe>with what factor does it increase with speed?
08:53<MNIM>I accidentally tried to literally translate from my own native language.
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't increase with speed
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>wind resistance increases with speed
08:53<MNIM>it does, eddi
08:53<MNIM>linearly, as opposed to quadratic air drag
08:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23083 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp): -Fix: run StartupEngines() if NewGRFs changed during loading a savegame, just like it's running when NewGRFs are changed during a game
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>rolling resistance rather decreases, due to the wheels getting warmer
08:54<MNIM>minimally, eddi
08:54<MNIM>there's a reason why high-speed trains simply don't go much past 300
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that reason is wind resistance
08:54<Celestar>wear and tear.
08:54<Celestar>an ICE can go around 420km/h.
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>especially at tunnel entrances
08:55<MNIM>not regularly.
08:55<MNIM>besides loss of efficiency due to wind and rolling resistance, there's material wear
08:55<Celestar>because of wear and tear.
08:55<Celestar>which makes the cost explode.
08:55<MNIM>which *does* increas quadratically with ground speed
08:55<Celestar>MNIM: not for airplanes.
08:55<MNIM>actually, it does
08:55<Celestar>no. it doesn't.
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>if you enter a tunnel beyond 600km/h, you might as well go right into the mountain...
08:55<MNIM>though the curve is *far* higher than ground transport.
08:56<MNIM>there's a reason why most civvy aircraft don't go past 900
08:56<Celestar>MNIM: aerodynamic drag has a minimum for airplanes.
08:56<Celestar>it's not ~x²
08:56<Celestar>v² even.
08:56<MNIM>I know.
08:57<MNIM>but even for aircraft a max speed applies mostly due to wear and tear.
08:57<appe>v^2 is a alot..
08:57<@planetmaker>MNIM: the 1000km/h boundary has another reason...
08:57<Celestar>a VERY other reason :P
08:57<Celestar>Mach resistance.
08:57<MNIM>I know that.
08:57<@planetmaker>which is the onset of turbulence due to ^^^
08:57<MNIM>they can theoretically go 1000, in fact, most can in reality
08:57<MNIM>but it's not very nice for your engines, for starters
08:58<@planetmaker>you want other engines than commercial airliners have
08:58<Celestar>TAS? nope.
08:58<Celestar>not in straigh and level flight.
08:58<MNIM>yes they can.
08:59<MNIM>not at MTOW, naturally, but most aircraft can't even get to cruise at MTOW
08:59<MNIM>maximum take-off weight
08:59<Celestar>considering that you need time to get to cruise, you will be lower than MTOW
09:00<MNIM>as a general rule, yes.
09:00<Celestar>but 1000km/h is basically impossible in straight and level for most airliners.
09:00<Celestar>MAYBE the 747SP manages
09:00<Celestar>we're talking Mach numbers.
09:00<Celestar>if it's hot enough up there, maybe :P
09:00<Celestar>and for modern airbii ....
09:00<MNIM>quite the opposite, celestar
09:00<appe>got damnit
09:00<appe>i hate openttd airfield
09:00<MNIM>higher temperature means less engine power
09:00<Celestar>good luck getting past the overspeed protection.
09:01<Celestar>MNIM: but higher speed of sound :P
09:01<MNIM>quite irrelevant.
09:01<Celestar>well you CAN get around the overspeed protection, theoretically :P
09:01<Celestar>push the circut breaker of two ELACs :P
09:01<Celestar>and then ... get a new job.
09:01<MNIM>at most aircraft's cruise height, you're still a way away from the speed of sound or overspeed
09:02<Celestar>you are around 20-40 KIAS from overspeed.
09:02<MNIM>which equals about 100kmh at that altitude
09:02<appe>is there a grf that allows me to make bigger airports, or at least build them together?
09:02<Celestar>which isn't much.
09:03<Celestar>one bad gust and you're in there.
09:03<appe>btw, i was thinking
09:03<Celestar>then your airbus will reduce engine power and pull up the nose.
09:03<MNIM>gust generally don't exist at FL360
09:03<appe>afaik, most speed measurements rely on how much air you suck into a given point. how can this be used on altitude where air is thinner with vertical position?
09:03<MNIM>appe: no grfs alone. there's a patch which supposedly works, though
09:04<Celestar>appe: because what matters for aerodynamics is NOT the actualy speed.
09:04<MNIM>appe: gps, doppler
09:04<Celestar>appe: but v² * density.
09:04<Celestar>so indicated airspeed is the best measurement you have.
09:04<Celestar>MNIM: modern high-end long range airliners are scaringly close to the coffin corner.
09:05<MNIM>at their max speed, yes. not at cruise
09:05<Celestar>at cruise.
09:05<Celestar>there's not much headroom.
09:05<Celestar>ask the AF447 pilots.
09:05<MNIM>only 360k feet
09:05<Celestar>no wait. you can't.
09:06<Celestar>as AF447 shows, 36k feet isn't much headroom either :P
09:06<Celestar>it's not enough to recover a completly intact airliner from a (deep?) stall.
09:07<MNIM>deep stall is usually a condition you prefer to prevent rather than recover.
09:07<appe>Celestar: i see
09:07<Celestar>MNIM: well. any kind of stall.
09:07<MNIM>Celestar: not necessarily.
09:07<Celestar>and with the A330 in normal mode, she won't let you stall.
09:07<appe>what does deep stall mean?
09:08<MNIM>the difference between stall and deep stall is that deep stall is A: a design fault B: virtually unrecoverable
09:08<Celestar>a deep stall is a stall where the horizonal stabilizer and elevator are either in the wake of the stalled wing, or stalled themselves, rendering them unusable.
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>is that like the difference between a "GAU" and a "SuperGAU"?
09:08<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: nope.
09:08<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: two totally different recovery techniques.
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09:09<MNIM>that's why I called design fault.
09:09<@planetmaker>nevertheless a deep stall is something I'd avoid at quite a cost ;-)
09:09<Celestar>a deep stall isn'T a design fault :P
09:09<MNIM>yes, you should :P
09:09<MNIM>proper aircraft design makes it virtually impossible to to go that far
09:10<Celestar>you can stall ANY aircraft.
09:10<MNIM>on purpose, yes.
09:10<@planetmaker>MNIM: is right though: some designs make it easier to get into deep stall
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>"virtually impossible"...
09:10<MNIM>when you're not doing it on purpose, it shouldn't be able to
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'd slap everybody in the face who uses that word
09:10<MNIM>as in general an aircraft is designed to provide more forward momentum the bigger the AOA is
09:10<Celestar>MNIM: I suppose you are not an ATPL holder :P
09:11<MNIM>it should correct itself.
09:11<@planetmaker>you have one, Celestar?
09:11<Celestar>planetmaker: nope :P
09:11<MNIM>the biggest exceptions are military (offensive) aircraft
09:11<@planetmaker>oh :-(
09:12<Celestar>planetmaker: aerospace engineer, remember? :P
09:12<Celestar>but I know the other side pretty well.
09:12<@planetmaker>yes, of course. That doesn't include piloting licenses, you know ;-)
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09:12<MNIM>since that self-correcting moment does also reduce maneuverability
09:12<Celestar>MNIM: you're talking about something completly different here.
09:13<@planetmaker>once in a deep stall there's hardly any self-correcting moment...
09:13<Celestar>MNIM: stability around the pitch axis has nothing to do with "automagic" stall recovery.
09:13<MNIM>planetmaker: quite the opposite, in fact
09:13<MNIM>it does.
09:13<Celestar>and once your AOA is around 40°, things look slightly different....
09:14<MNIM>true, but in general you shouldn't be in that range in the first place.
09:14<@planetmaker>40° AoA...
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09:14<MNIM>unless you're a modern fighter pilot.
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09:14<Celestar>planetmaker: I've spent hours simulating the AF330 accident. in a real sim :P
09:14<@planetmaker>he :-)
09:15<Celestar>MNIM: well. it happens.
09:15<Celestar>MNIM: in an "unstallable" aircraft.
09:15<Celestar>and the A330 is unstallable
09:15<@planetmaker>hm, AF330?
09:15<Celestar>(in Normal Law)
09:15<@planetmaker>you mean AF447?
09:16<Celestar>planetmaker: yeah. AF A330 I meant :P
09:16<@planetmaker>so what was the cause again? :-)
09:16<@planetmaker>iirc it was piloting error and mis-judgement of the situation
09:16<Celestar>if I knew, I would be more clever than the investigators :P
09:16<Celestar>well piloting error....
09:17<Celestar>The pilots did not really realize they were in a stall condition.
09:17<@planetmaker>which is kinda bad
09:17<@planetmaker>though the plane should give clear indications of that situation
09:17<@planetmaker>stick shaker being one of it
09:18<Celestar>the stall warning in the A330 disables below 60 KIAS.
09:18<Celestar>and the IAS was below 60 knots.
09:18<@planetmaker>that sounds like design fault
09:19<MNIM>"The plane rolled slightly and the pilot flying pulled the nose back. The pilot repeatedly pulled back on the stick, producing a stall, continuing even while the stall warning sounded continuously for 54 seconds."
09:19<@planetmaker>pull back is the wrong reaction on stall
09:19<MNIM>verily much so.
09:19<@planetmaker>that's why I said "pilot error"
09:19<MNIM>the stall warning sounded, a wing dropped, and the AP disconnected.
09:19<@planetmaker>which it should upon stall
09:20<MNIM>that should have been reason enough to nose-down.
09:20<MNIM>basic pilot training.
09:20<Celestar>first thing that happened was the plane switched to Alternate Law.
09:21<@planetmaker>what's that, Celestar?
09:21<Celestar>planetmaker: it defines what protections you have.
09:22<Celestar>planetmaker: Normal Law, Alternate Law, Abnormal (Alternate) Law, Direct Law, (Mechanical)
09:22<Celestar>in Normal Law, you can pull the stick back all you want, you cannot stall.
09:22<Celestar>in Alternate Law, the stall protection is lost.
09:23<Celestar>so if the plane loses altitude, and the AP disconnects, the first thing you do is try to maintain alititude.
09:23<@planetmaker>to "fly the plane" ;-)
09:23<Celestar>because with today's 500ft vertical separation, you have little room.
09:23<+glx><MNIM> that should have been reason enough to nose-down. <-- but that's not the procedure
09:23<@planetmaker>should be priority. I watched too much airdisaster investigation ;-)
09:24<@planetmaker>well. over the mid-atlantic it hardly matters
09:24<MNIM>no glx, only basic pilot training.
09:24<MNIM>wing drops? nose down.
09:24<MNIM>stall warning? nose down.
09:24<Celestar>planetmaker: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
09:24<@planetmaker>yup :-)
09:24<MNIM>ap disconnect? nose-down, increase throttle.
09:24<+glx>for military pilots maybe MNIM, but civilian pilots don't learn that
09:24<@planetmaker>glx: sure they do
09:24<Celestar>Nose down is HARD if the trim is full nose-up.
09:24<+glx>they follow the makers procedure
09:24<MNIM>all pilots do.
09:25<Celestar>also, if you are in a full stall you do NOT increase the throttle.
09:25<@planetmaker>though ap disconnect does not necessarily mean nose down...
09:25<Celestar>because increasing the "throttle" pulls your nose up.
09:25<MNIM>not necessarily, but stall or system malfunction is usually the cause
09:25<MNIM>Celestar: aircraft dependant.
09:25<Celestar>in civilian airlines, mostly.
09:26<Celestar>all wing mounted
09:26<MNIM>in modern transonic airliners, yes.
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09:26<Celestar>fact is, the AF447 situation is really complicated.
09:26<MNIM>for most regional aircraft it isn't.
09:26<+glx>no fiable altitude info
09:27<+glx>in the middle of a storm
09:27<Celestar>isolating the failure to recognize the stall is 1) jumping to conclusion and 2) dangerous.
09:27<@planetmaker>why is that dangerous?
09:28<Celestar>because you might miss other failure points.
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09:28<Celestar>which could be remedied to avoid the problem in the future.
09:29<Celestar>for example not using bad pitots in the first place.
09:29<@planetmaker>in the aftermath: yes. But when in the situation? Not sure
09:29<Celestar>we're here in a hindsight situation :P
09:29<Celestar>if an A330 is in a stall, a multitude of things have already gone very wrong.
09:30<@planetmaker>In that case: of course all possible causes and contributions have to be considered
09:30<Celestar>especially at cruise altitude and speed.
09:30<@planetmaker>as any way to make the situation less likely and easier to understand for the pilots
09:30<Celestar>for example: an AOA display MIGHT have helped.
09:30<@planetmaker>the first was riding out that kind of storm ;-)
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09:31<@planetmaker>though they might not have had a chance to avoid it
09:31<+glx>Sainte-Odile was a good example of missing understanding :)
09:31<Celestar>the weather wasn't really an issue apart from the icing of the pitots.
09:32<@planetmaker>which is a usual thing to happen in that kind of weather
09:32<+glx>speed or angle displayed on the same screen without unit
09:32<@planetmaker>uh, yes
09:33<Celestar>planetmaker: if you still have the friggen Thales equipment yes. Which most airlines have replaced by BF Goodrich (afaik) years ago due to exactly that issue
09:33<@planetmaker>iirc AF didn't. Or did they?
09:33<Celestar>on some planes, yes.
09:36<Celestar>but Thales being French might have played a role?
09:39<@planetmaker>It's weired company, though I only learnt to know somewhat it's space division
09:41<Celestar>anyway, the question is: If the pilots had known all the time that they were in a stall condition, would they have been able to recover?
09:45<@planetmaker>that's the 3nd question IMHO. The first is "why didn't they know?". The 2nd is "Why did they respond as they did?". And then that one
09:49<+michi_cc>AF didn't want the Backup Speed Scale, which is basically an AoA indicator (just without absolute numbers).
09:51<Celestar>there IS an AOA indicator
09:51<Celestar>on some page of the flight management computer.
09:51<@planetmaker>not helpful in such situation ;-)
09:51<+glx>there are too many pages ;)
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>the concept of "pages" sounds very wrong
09:52<Celestar>you don't have time to browse through the output
09:53<Celestar>several things to consider.
09:53<+glx>"hundreds" of displays was not better either
09:53<Celestar>High-speed high altitude stalls are very rarely trained.
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>everything that you can't overview at a glance is like it's not there at all
09:54<Celestar>High-speed high altitude stalls are very rarely trained because there is very very little data from those flight regimes and thus the simulation might be misleading, if not totally wrong.
09:55<+michi_cc>Offered since 2006 exactly because of previous problems with unreliable airspeed:
09:55<Celestar>michi_cc: yep
09:56<Celestar>not sure the plane in question had that installed.
09:56<Celestar>or rather I'm pretty sure she hadn't :P
09:56<Qantourisc>OK reasking: anyone with a fun coop server ?
09:57<Celestar>"“the speed scale will display the back-up speed information derived from the angle of attack with the very simple logic – you have red and green and the logic is ‘fly the green’,”"
09:57<Celestar>this is how it should be.
09:58<+michi_cc>AFAIR AF neither installed the BSS nor changed the pitot tubes after the 2007 recommendation by the manufacturer.
09:59<Celestar>see above. maybe because Thales is French?
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10:01<+michi_cc>Maybe, maybe not. They do fly non-french Boeings though
10:02<Celestar>yeah sure.
10:02<Celestar>but political pressure on AF is high.
10:04<appe>is there a mac version of openttd?
10:05<@planetmaker>did you look?
10:06<Qantourisc>appe: yes i saw it pass earlier today
10:06<Qantourisc>appe: if you mean a version with trains that ship ipods ... no idea :)
10:10<Celestar>michi_cc: for your newmap thing, what is and what isn'T finished yet?
10:11<+michi_cc>Celestar: The only user-visible change is multiple rail types and owners on a single tile.
10:12<Celestar>michi_cc: well, but no "known bugs" left?
10:12<+michi_cc>My local repo also has changes to split MP_STATION up.
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10:13<+michi_cc>Not really. There are two or three small fixes that exists only locally, but nothing big. And in theory you can compile a binary from any commit and still get a working OpenTTD.
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10:14<Celestar>michi_cc: split MP_STATION into what?
10:14<+michi_cc>MP_RAILWAY + MP_ROAD + MP_STATION
10:14<Celestar>railway + road + station? :P
10:15<+michi_cc>Well, either road or rail :) It's not really needed now, but would make implementing road types easier.
10:15<Celestar>same for tunnels/bridges
10:15<+michi_cc>Next up after that would be devirtualization of wormholes.
10:16<Celestar>so bridge would be MP_RAILWAY+MP_BRIDGE?
10:17<+michi_cc>MP_BRIDGE would be the base tile. I'm not sure yet whether to split MP_TUNNELBRIDGE or keep the same type for both.
10:18<Celestar>I found that splitting it removes a shitload of specialcasing.
10:18<+michi_cc>Tile order in the map storage is actually important because it's also the drawing order.
10:18<Celestar>sounds right :)
10:19<Celestar>so how would a road look with a rail bridge over it with a crossing rail bridge with station over that? :P
10:20<Celestar>oh .. yeahz. .. CLEAR :P
10:21<Celestar>which would then enable non-straight bridges :P
10:22<appe>Qantourisc: :D
10:22<appe>the headquarter on the mac core version should be steve jobs summer house in california
10:23<@planetmaker>appe: we cannot and must not differ between OS
10:23<@planetmaker>Or multiplayer would be inherently broken
10:24<Celestar>michi_cc: how does a "bridge" tile find its "bridge" neighbour ?
10:25<@peter1138>does it need to?
10:25<+michi_cc>Tile height
10:25<@planetmaker>peter1138: of course one might use os-specific base sets... but they then would work on any OS
10:25<+michi_cc>For rail/road it would be a combination of tile height and enter direction
10:25<Celestar>michi_cc: yeah, but algorithmically? traverse via the base tile or do you have some kinda cached map?
10:26<@peter1138>planetmaker, wasn't hming at that ;)
10:26<@planetmaker>:-) k
10:26<appe>planetmaker: that's a very healthy approach, as much as it is a very serious answer to a not so serious question.
10:26<+michi_cc>No idea yet :) Basic implementation would be by just traversing the stack at the tile index. Have to see whether something more complicated is even needed.
10:27*Celestar is already prematurely optimizing
10:27<appe>i just noticed something
10:27<Celestar>a roach?
10:27<appe>there isnt a reliant robin grf.
10:28<Celestar>michi_cc: the more I look at it, the more I like your idea :)
10:28<@peter1138>as long as it'll run on my pc
10:28<Celestar>peter1138: ?
10:37<Celestar>Zero Bug Beer \o/
10:39<@Yexo>michi_cc: are there open problems why newmap could not be committed?
10:41<@planetmaker>was a performance test done (iirc yes, but... my memory)?
10:41<+michi_cc>Right now it comes with a noticeable performance hit. Repacking the map bits will help somewhat, as does chaning TileIndex to Tile* where possible, but in the end it will be slower.
10:41<+michi_cc>As I don't know how much slower...
10:41<Celestar>I tried it with some large map yesterday.
10:41<Celestar>with thousands of vehicles.
10:41<@Yexo>ok, tha's a clear answer :)
10:42<MNIM>nuclear trains.
10:42<Celestar>The TileLoop was about 50% slower (compared to a single m1-m7 struct). The VehicleLoop was nearly 10%.
10:42<Celestar>The Vehicle loop took about 30 times as long as the vehicle loop
10:43<@peter1138>that doesn't have any context though
10:43<Celestar>what context you need? :P
10:43<@peter1138>how much time overall is taken by the tileloop
10:43<Celestar>1.5 million cycles.
10:43<@peter1138>that's not time
10:43<@peter1138>50% slower if it takes only 1% of the total cpu time
10:43<@peter1138>means nothing
10:44<Celestar>it took around 2.5%
10:45<@planetmaker>peter1138: but as long as it's only a code change (and no gameplay advantage), a performance hit is not that much sensible
10:45<Celestar>of course, on a new, unbuilt map, it's much higher.
10:46<Celestar>well one thing is certain. if you want flexible tiles, it will be slower :P
10:46<@peter1138>planetmaker, more flexible bridges/tunnels/stations/etc probably does provide a gameplay advantage?
10:47<@planetmaker>yes, that does
10:47<Celestar>and michi_cc's code is not yet optimized, I'm pretty sure at some point it will be faster if need be.
10:47<@planetmaker>peter1138: just saying without a patch queue to actually implement more flexibility for one of that would not (yet) make sense IMHO
10:48<Celestar>it could start with some minor thing? Signals on bridges?
10:48<Celestar>(for example)
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10:49<@peter1138>obviously there's no point having it just by itself
10:49<@peter1138>no argument there :p
10:50<@peter1138>signals on bridges, yum
10:50<@peter1138>and tunnels, yum
10:50<@peter1138>and... erm. yeah
10:50<Celestar>peter1138: context: Most expensive thing map-wise is GetTileSlope.
10:50<+michi_cc>I'll probably do some bridge stuff, but somebody else can figure out the GUI for building stuff in tunnels :p
10:50<Celestar>peter1138: something that *could* be cached.
10:50<Celestar>michi_cc: I have some patch that allows 'slicing' the view by levels.
10:50<Celestar>michi_cc: I'll find it for ya once I'm home
10:51<Celestar>which, unfortunatly, is saturday night :(
10:51<Celestar>peter1138: performance-wise it might even help lots if we put the height of all 4 corners into a tile :P
10:52<@Yexo>would that help more than storing height of north corner + slope?
10:52<+michi_cc>Slope is "just" five bits
10:52<Celestar>which could then, later be expanded to cliffs.
10:53<@Yexo>that's also possible if you just store the slope
10:53<Celestar>michi_cc: yeah.
10:53<Celestar>michi_cc: but determining the slope by using adjacent tiles is probably not efficient.
10:54<@planetmaker>might be more flexible, if you want to allow many different slopes or if you want to allow non-continuous terrain
10:54<Eddi|zuHause><Celestar> peter1138: context: Most expensive thing map-wise is GetTileSlope. <-- it probably makes sense to explicitly store slope and foundation info
10:54<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah that's what I thought.
10:54<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: caching it.
10:54<@planetmaker>would remove kinda the foundations stored separately but would be done implicitly then
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10:57<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, foundation and cliff might be the same thing then. except maybe some graphics for randomly placed and player built cliffs
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>(comparable to the difference between rivers and canals then)
10:58<Celestar>since GetFoundatationSlope also costs quite a bit, it might help as well.
10:58*Celestar thinks this calls for a prototype
10:59<@planetmaker>I guess IF we really made an effort we could get the required ~1000 sprites needed for 90° rotation
10:59<@planetmaker>from the graphics community
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11:00<@planetmaker>or 2x 1k sprites (opengfx and ttd)
11:00<@planetmaker>though it's problematic with newgrfs... might need a setting for newgrfs which says "allow rotations"
11:00<Celestar>how's that related? :P
11:01<@planetmaker>Celestar: you cannot look behind cliffs
11:01<@planetmaker>thus tiles might become invisible
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>we don't need rotation when we have slicing
11:01<@planetmaker>which is currently not the case
11:02<@planetmaker>or we need... the 3d with levels becoming invisible
11:02<@planetmaker>which might be a pseudo-3d, but just level-selective display
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's what slicing does, cuts of the "top" levels to see the lower ones
11:03<Celestar>planetmaker: yeah. slicing
11:03<Celestar>i.e. hide all things above some level.
11:03<@planetmaker>k :-)
11:06<Celestar>and below some level
11:06<Celestar>so you have pizza slices :P
11:07<@peter1138>mmm pizza
11:07<@peter1138>is there a branch? ;)
11:07<@planetmaker>openttd-pizza :-P
11:07<@planetmaker>get a checkout and never starve? ;-)
11:08*frosch123 pulls the pizza from pm
11:08*planetmaker hungry now
11:09<@planetmaker>if you'd clone it, we'd both have one now :-(
11:09<Celestar>pizza is missing a copy-constructor :P
11:10<@planetmaker>Celestar: it's called Joey's or so
11:10<@planetmaker>just mis-leadingly named
11:17<Celestar>my caching prototype seems to suck :P
11:18<Celestar>cpu usage for GetTileSlope is down from 3.5% to 0.9%.
11:19<Celestar>but cycles for RunTileLoop is up??
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>serious cache misses?
11:20<Celestar>I'm not dirtying the cache :P
11:20<Celestar>assuming static map :P
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11:20<@Yexo>Celestar: how did you implement it? just adding a byte to the Tile struct?
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11:21<Celestar>Yexo: first I added (unused) bytes to the struct, ran it. then I made use of the bytes and ran it again :P
11:21<Celestar>no remove the error coming from the increase of the struct
11:22<Celestar>is there any way to force-fast-forward by command line?
11:24<@Yexo>run openttd with -vnull:ticks=1000
11:24<@Yexo>that runs openttd without blitter for 1000 ticks in fast-forward
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i guess in the battle democracy vs. markets, the democracy finally caved...
11:24<@peter1138>did you add to Tile or TileExtended?
11:24<@peter1138>(or are you in the other code)
11:24<Celestar>I'm in the Other Code
11:25<Celestar>I somehow think that the stupid powersave is friggen me up
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11:25<@Yexo>always disable powersave before doing performance tests
11:28<Celestar>trying with a pure map :P
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11:34<Celestar>feels good to dig around the code again :D
11:35<z-MaTRiX>do you write core functions in assembly ?
11:35<z-MaTRiX>or only C everything?
11:36<Celestar>is openttd portable z-MaTRiX ?
11:37<z-MaTRiX>ah so its not universal and excluded? :(
11:40<z-MaTRiX>well anyway they say gcc does well in asm ;/
11:40<z-MaTRiX>given openttd will take adventage of all 6 cores in new computers it might be even better
11:42<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: who says openttd should only compile using gcc?
11:42<z-MaTRiX>ok i get it
11:42<z-MaTRiX>so openttd will never support multicore then
11:43<@planetmaker>where's the relating between using asm and multi-core support?
11:43<z-MaTRiX>but currently there is a 4GB limit in cpu speed that is not yet possible to break
11:43<z-MaTRiX>was thinking about C and multicore
11:43<@planetmaker>you notice that statement is totally non-sense?
11:43<@planetmaker>and even then?
11:44<z-MaTRiX>soon it may become a limiting factor if you continuously implement new functions
11:44<z-MaTRiX>it will slow game down
11:44<Celestar>CPUs get faster per clock cycle :P
11:46<z-MaTRiX>where can i turn on AA in openttd?
11:46<z-MaTRiX>(anti-aliasing display mode)
11:49<@Yexo>openttd only supports AA for fonts
11:49<@Yexo>and of course that excludes the default bitmap font
11:50<@Yexo>you need to change the config file for that
11:51<z-MaTRiX>and may i implement AA display functions?
11:51<z-MaTRiX>or its some SDL function?
11:51<@planetmaker>SDL is only used for 10% of the users
11:52<z-MaTRiX>though you may argue with AA if you increase screen resolution ...
11:52<@planetmaker>you may implement everything you take a fancy in
11:52<z-MaTRiX>so every function is implemented in C like circle line polygon
11:52<@Yexo>?? what do you mean with "implement AA display functions"? You want to do anti-aliasing over the sprites?
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11:52<@planetmaker>hi Xtri
11:52<@Yexo>hello Xtri
11:52<Xtri>Quick replies, I like that.
11:53<Xtri>Anyone that can help me out a bit with patching?
11:53<@Yexo>did you already manage to compile openttd without any patches?
11:53<@Yexo>if not, start there
11:54<Xtri>Oh and at the same time, are there any decent city builder patches out there that you know about?
11:54<z-MaTRiX>Yexo<< well it depends on the actual function it does
11:54<@Yexo>the function that does what?
11:54<@Yexo>Xtri: unfortunately not
11:54<@planetmaker>Xtri: did you look at the forum? there's one or two threads about a patch in that direction...
11:55<z-MaTRiX>Yexo<< how is RGBA handling done?
11:55<@planetmaker>at least concerning city cargo acceptance
11:55<@planetmaker>though they're far from finished
11:55<Xtri>Found that one.
11:55<@planetmaker>yes, I mean that. the only one really
11:55<@Yexo>z-MaTRiX: by default openttd uses an 8bpp palette, and draws only in that palette
11:55<@Yexo>when using a 32bpp blitter openttd simply does the palette->RGBA conversion itself
11:55<Xtri>Does it work decently though?
11:56<@planetmaker>dunno :-)
11:56<Xtri>Well I guess I have to try it out :P
11:56<@planetmaker>just don't patch stable openttd with it. It makes no sense to do so ;-)
11:57<Celestar>in a built up game, the difference of 50% in the tile loop is not noticable :P
11:57<z-MaTRiX>Yexo<< so only SDL blit function is used to display the rendered image?
11:57<@Yexo>z-MaTRiX: why don't you check the code yourself?
11:57<Celestar>how many ticks does it take to run the tileloop through the whole map? 256?
11:57<z-MaTRiX>you're the coder :)
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11:57<@planetmaker>iirc yes, Celestar
11:58<z-MaTRiX>i was sure you know
11:58<@Yexo>you'd have to look in src/video/ I assume, I've never spend much time on that code
11:59<@planetmaker>blitting is iirc custom-defined. independent of the video backend
11:59<z-MaTRiX>ok im asking these because i was thinking about adding anti-aliasing to openttd as a weekend project
11:59<@planetmaker>anti-aliasing for the sprites.... makes little sense
12:00<z-MaTRiX>does the sprites have alpha channel?
12:01<@planetmaker>99.9% not. As it's 8bpp
12:01<@planetmaker>and 192 unique colours
12:01<@planetmaker>and 80% of the users probably use the 8bpp blitter
12:01<z-MaTRiX>why is that?
12:02<@Yexo>because it's the default, it's the default blitter because it's the fastest one
12:02<@planetmaker>and it's the original colours of TTD
12:02<z-MaTRiX>is it hard to change it to 32bit ?
12:02<z-MaTRiX>or is it that slow?
12:02<Celestar>just start the 32bit blitter? :P
12:02<@Yexo>^^, just change one line in your config file
12:03<@Yexo>z-MaTRiX: you really should start reading up.
12:03<@Yexo>you seem to have very little knowledge, and yet you want to "add AA"
12:03<@peter1138>by antialiasing, do you mean linear interpolation when scaling?
12:04<@Yexo>peter1138: I'm quite sure "scaling" was not yet mentioned
12:04<@peter1138>i know
12:04<z-MaTRiX>havent been reading any openttd code yet so thisis why im asking
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12:05<z-MaTRiX>peter1138<< well yes, interpolation should be there, but i meant AA specifically for the edges
12:06<@peter1138>edges of what?
12:06<z-MaTRiX>like you draw a circle you get that squared outline look
12:06<@peter1138>what circles?
12:06<@planetmaker>I wonder(ed) that, too
12:06<z-MaTRiX>was example
12:07<@planetmaker>there are no vectorized contents
12:07<@planetmaker>except fonts.
12:07<z-MaTRiX>it can be applied to a diagonal line too
12:07<@planetmaker>which have AA
12:07<@Yexo>z-MaTRiX: which diagonal lines?
12:07<z-MaTRiX>a diagonal track?
12:07<@Yexo>those are sprites, not lines
12:07<@planetmaker>you're aware it's a drawing?
12:07<z-MaTRiX>but it has diagonal lines
12:07<@planetmaker>pixel by pixel?
12:07<@planetmaker>it has no lines
12:08<@planetmaker>it's pixel art
12:08<@peter1138>there are diagonal lines
12:08<@Yexo>I know
12:08<@peter1138>in the graphs
12:08<@peter1138>but that's it :)
12:08<Celestar>where? :P
12:08<@Yexo>and the bounding boxes
12:08<@planetmaker>bounding boxes?
12:08<@Yexo>what you see when you press ctrl+b
12:09<@peter1138>hehe :)
12:09<Celestar>I gotta run
12:09<Celestar>cya tomorrow
12:09<@planetmaker>bye, Celestar
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12:15<z-MaTRiX>[170258] Yexo you seem to have very little knowledge, and yet you want to "add AA" - only knowledge about openttd :)
12:15<@Yexo>of course
12:15<@Yexo>I meant no insult there
12:15<z-MaTRiX>but i remember i have seen squared edges in openttd, this is why i was asking
12:16<z-MaTRiX>right now starting it to see again
12:28<z-MaTRiX>i believe the tracks rotation is incorrectly rendered
12:29<z-MaTRiX>but to rotate a track correctly this way we'd need a heightmap too ofcourse
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12:32<z-MaTRiX>ahm i see
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12:33<z-MaTRiX>is there a function that rotates sprites? or they are only drawn as-is ?
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12:38<@peter1138>rotate sprites? what?
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12:40<z-MaTRiX>was just asking if any sprites/images are rotated out of original state after loading
12:41<+glx>why rotate things ?
12:42<z-MaTRiX>so in theory i believe if the sprites are ocr-traced prior-to loading, then the graphic edges are blended correctly using alpha channel there should be no squared curves right?
12:43<@peter1138>what are you talking about?
12:43<z-MaTRiX>the aliased curves in the sprites
12:44<z-MaTRiX>that is due to vectorgraphic rasterization error/missing anti-alias
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12:45<@peter1138>what vector graphics?
12:45<@peter1138>the sprites are hand drawn
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12:46<z-MaTRiX>well switch your openttd to 640x480 then zoom in a station for example
12:46<z-MaTRiX>you'll see pixelated 'curves' going over the station clearly
12:48<+glx>because they are pixels
12:48<@peter1138>that's how the sprite is drawn
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12:48<z-MaTRiX>ok its hand drawn
12:49<z-MaTRiX>but not drawn at a higher resolution then downsampled?
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12:49<+glx>some may draw them that way but it's very rare
12:50<z-MaTRiX>so its already drawn pixel-by-pixel, but if you convert a bitmap to vectorgraphics, then downsample back with anti-alias it will be smoother
12:51<@peter1138>no, graphics don't work like that
12:51<z-MaTRiX>yes i see this dont have to be done all the time, only applied once to the sprites
12:53<z-MaTRiX>i remember i have a cool image compression program somewhere from before 2000 that does convert a bitmap to fractals, then if i set >95% quality, it started to trace down the pixels of the bitmap (at about the same size as jpg)
12:54<@peter1138>if you convert it to vector, you'll have a vector representation of a bitmap
12:54<z-MaTRiX>and after converting back the bmp file stored in fractal-converted format to a larger resolution bitmap, it was much better
12:54<@peter1138>you won't magically get the extra information required to "add AA"
12:55<@Yexo>z-MaTRiX: but OpenTTD currently never scales bitmaps to larger resolutions
12:55<@Yexo>so again, what's the point?
12:56<z-MaTRiX>well you have 2 black pixels next to each others [(0,0),(1,1)] you can trace that as vector, give it width=1, and you can even upsample-interpolate it to any resolution
12:57<z-MaTRiX>Yexo<< ok it does not, but if you save the vectorgraphics at same resolution as the origian bitmap you can get anti-aliased bitmap
12:57<@Yexo>z-MaTRiX: by all means go ahead and show us some results
12:57<@Yexo>you're the one claiming it looks better, please prove all us non-believers wrong
12:58<z-MaTRiX>ok :)
12:58<@Yexo>simply decode a newgrf, improve the sprites and encode it again
12:58<z-MaTRiX>sounds like a good project
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14:01<__ln__>they're not voting after all
14:01*Alberth votes against not voting
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14:12<Xtri>Why don't OpenTTD make a city builder?
14:12<Xtri>Seems like it's the most popular gamemode.
14:13<@Yexo>because nobody has been interested enough to make it?
14:16-!-TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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14:23<@Belugas>not totally true, Yexo. Ther is a patch on forums, and not on peter1138's HDs :)
14:24<@Yexo>true, I forgot about that patch
14:24<@Belugas>and Xtri, may I question that "most popular gamemode" assertion? If it was that popular for TTD world, someone would have done it EONS ago
14:25<@Alberth>evenink Belugas
14:25<@Belugas>I WANT IT! IT'S THUS EXTREMELY POPULAR... grrrr
14:25<@Belugas>Hi My Lord!
14:25<@Yexo>Xtri: I'm quite sure the most popular gamemode is playing the last stable in singleplayer modus
14:26<Xtri>Belugas what patch?
14:26<@Belugas>the one that lets you put houses where you want to
14:27<@Alberth>no it is the other way around: I play it all the time, my friends play it too, it must be popular :)
14:28-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
14:28<@Belugas>that one...
14:35-!-blotek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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14:36<@Alberth>don't forget the 'fund city' in newer openttds :)
14:37<frosch123>we should rename this channel to #openttd.troll
14:39<@Belugas>i should also start working on an Undo knob..
14:40<frosch123>yeah, that one is esp. useful when trading shares
14:40<@Alberth>what about a shouty "NO!!" on it ?
14:41<@Alberth>a bright yellow button :p
14:42<@Alberth>frosch123: or #openttd.offtopic
14:42<frosch123>we already have that channel
14:42<frosch123>it is called #tycoon
14:43<frosch123>if you want to talk about forum games, that is the channel to go :p
14:43*Alberth wanted to know about those, but was afraid to ask here :)
14:45<@Alberth>ooh, simutrans has network support too
15:00<Qantourisc>Why can't i build some airports ?
15:01-!-Xtri [] has quit []
15:01<Terkhen>my guess is that they still have not been invented in your game
15:01<@Yexo>because you're in the wrong year, see
15:01<Terkhen>without more info... no clue :)
15:03<Qantourisc>aaa alllow airports
15:03<Qantourisc>I wanted to build a small one :)
15:06<@Yexo>eanble the setting "airports never expire"
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15:15<@peter1138>what what
15:16<@peter1138>hmm, big bang theory is crap isn't it?
15:21<Elukka>the show or the theory :D
15:23-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
15:23<__ln__>why did they name an important theory after a tv show?!
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15:28<@peter1138>heh, the tv show :p
15:30<@Alberth>hi andy
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15:33<andythenorth>did I miss cb15 / cb36 being fixed? :o
15:33<andythenorth>probly not :P
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the suggestion was to use cb15 with var47
15:36<z-MaTRiX>why does openttd blogs ALSA lib pcm.c:7234:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the "ww" part:
15:37<__ln__>z-MaTRiX: because someone has misspelled 'occurred'
15:38<__ln__>yet i didn't know openttd has a blog of its own.
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: that usually happens when when the CPU is clogged so the alsa buffer is not refilled in time
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15:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so do some maths in a varact2?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes
15:39<andythenorth>has anyone got pseudo code I can copy
15:39<z-MaTRiX>ran it in a terminal, and it is probably stderr of openttd
15:39<@peter1138>you know what 'blog' means, right?
15:39<andythenorth>I can do the varacts, I just can't be bothered to work out the spec
15:39<z-MaTRiX>Eddi|zuHause<< oh i see
15:40<z-MaTRiX>it was writing to swap at initialization, maybe thats the reason
15:40<@peter1138>i think it's an interaction between sdl, alsa and pulseaudio
15:40<@peter1138>i never bothered investigating
15:40<@Belugas>they all are drooling over that show here. They... mean...not me... Just by listening on what they say, i don't want to even get nearby watching a minute of it
15:40<@Belugas>big bang theory, that is...
15:41<@peter1138>utter shite
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well the formula is <capacity in tons>*16/((var47>>8)&0xFF)
15:41<TrueBrain>Belugas: but but but ... booobbbiiieeessss..... *drewl*
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: where you'd need a varaction2 for each capacity
15:41<andythenorth>oh :P
15:41<andythenorth>CPP templates ftw
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: dunno, i use a python script for that :p
15:42<andythenorth>it sounds interesting
15:42<andythenorth>the current solution entirely works
15:42<andythenorth>but that's not the point :P
15:42<@Belugas>TrueBrain: youwant boobs, let me introduce you to the OTHER You something wb site ;)
15:43<@peter1138>i watched a bit of it. it's just cringey jokes
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the problem with CPP is that it cannot do the *16 calculation, so you'd have to do that by hand
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt that grfcodec or nforenum would optimize that away
15:45<andythenorth>I could sort that out with defines
15:45<andythenorth>or so
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15:46<Eddi|zuHause>#define CAPACITY 15
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>#define CAPACITY16 250
15:47<@Belugas>that's what I fugured out listening to THEM
15:47<@Belugas>crazy colleagues...
15:48<@Belugas>last show like that i watch was "3's a crowd"
15:48<@Belugas>way way way ywa back then
15:50<TrueBrain>damn, you are old
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15:52<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with TBBT?
15:52<TrueBrain>*drewl* Penny ...
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>bernadette is crazy :p
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15:58<@peter1138>it's not funny
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16:43<@Belugas>[15:50] <TrueBrain> damn, you are old <-- DUH!!!
16:43<@Belugas>i'm also going home
16:44<@Belugas>MAMA i'M COMING HOME
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>good night then :)
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17:11<Celestar>latest ubuntu upgrade fscks up the network manager.
17:13<MNIM>OS upgrade, or package upgrade?
17:15-!-Celestar_ [] has joined #openttd
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17:15<Celestar_>works better.
17:15-!-Celestar is now known as Guest15727
17:15-!-Celestar_ is now known as celestar
17:15-!-celestar is now known as Celestar
17:15<Celestar>works now :P
17:15<Celestar>removing all stored networks seemed to have helped
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17:21<Celestar>hm.. difficult to get the power consumption below 12W
17:23-!-JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:24<Celestar>brb :P
17:24-!-Celestar [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
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17:26<Terkhen>good night
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17:40*andythenorth begins the work to fix HEQS lighting
17:41<andythenorth>why did I start out painting pixels correctly?
17:41<andythenorth>the first sprites I drew are lit correctly
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>something looks odd with the lighting in CETS, but i can't put my finger on it
17:43<andythenorth>it's weird
17:43<andythenorth>I changed style not on any evidence, but because Purno's tutorial said I was wrong
17:44<andythenorth>why do we accept authority instead of evidence?
17:47-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
17:49<andythenorth>first I drew correctly. Then I read the tutorial and started drawing incorrectly. Then I looked at TTD pixels, and had to fix a lot of stuff :P
17:49<@peter1138>so a dodgy tutorial
17:50<@peter1138>why is it not possible to change music set in-game?
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17:52<andythenorth>because you haven't coded that yet?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know is there's an english expression for that, but: "Warum ist die Banane krumm?" - "Weil niemand durch den Urwald zog, und die Banane grade bog!"
17:53<@peter1138>i don't have the music on anyway
17:53<@peter1138>i have uncool real music playing instead ;p
17:54<@peter1138>gah, TerraGenesis sucks for non-temperate
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>what do english people say when someone (a child usually) asks a dumb question?
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: something in the style of above's phrase? (roughly: "why is the banana bent? - because nobody went to the jungle to unbend it!"
17:56<@peter1138>i don't think i've properly played ottd since switching from CRT to LCD
17:56<@peter1138>i used to play fullscreen at 800x600
17:56<@peter1138>which doesn't work on LCDs, heh
17:56<@peter1138>well it does, but not nicely
17:57<andythenorth>peter1138: we once explored why TerraGenesis sucks so much
17:57<andythenorth>you found it's not even doing what it claims to iirc
17:57<@peter1138>did i?
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>TGP has a number of shortcomings
17:57<andythenorth>there are lies in it somewhere
17:58<andythenorth>I probably even have the transcript.....somewhere :P
17:58<andythenorth>most things are somewhere
17:58<@peter1138>i know i started a rewrite
17:58<@peter1138>but stopped
17:58<@peter1138>cos... just cos
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: probably around the time when you patched in the height curves
17:58<andythenorth>I made a hack that puts in craters that look like donuts
17:59<andythenorth>I also made a thing that put steps into mountains, for the purposes of building railroad tracks along
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, there's a weird rounding issue
17:59<andythenorth>I have no idea how I did either of those, I just changed numbers until fun happened
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>that prevents the highest level from being generated
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>so mountains get more flat than they need to be
17:59<andythenorth>is that why it always comes out with stupid flat plateaus in arctic?
17:59<andythenorth>they're so dumb
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>we need a "tectonics" map generator
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>perlin maps are too "regular"
18:00<@peter1138>hmm, i implemented a fault-line generator
18:00<@peter1138>i remember that
18:00<@peter1138>i wonder where all that went...
18:00<andythenorth>then you got distracted trying to fly missiles over a minecraft map
18:00<andythenorth>or something
18:01<@peter1138>and A* in 3D
18:02<@Yexo>michi_cc: I just cloned newmap.git and tried to run it. It asserts as soon as I try to build a tunnel
18:03<@peter1138>hmm, odd, none of my patches mention "perlin" or "noise" :S
18:03<andythenorth>the map doesn't need to be realistic, it needs to add 'interesting features'
18:04<andythenorth>and have fewer options, all of which are like twiddling knobs and levers on a black box
18:04<+michi_cc>Yexo: That repo is missing a few fixes from my local repo, maybe it's is already solved. I'll check when I return to it.
18:04<andythenorth>now we have rivers also ...
18:05<andythenorth>can't we just run an erosion simulator?
18:05<andythenorth>assign rock hardness 1-8 in bands of the map, drop river sources, run for 1024 cycles, see what happened
18:06<andythenorth>start the whole thing at height 16
18:06<@peter1138>sounds cool. code it?
18:06<andythenorth>he :)
18:06<andythenorth>there's no newgrf API for it :P
18:06<@peter1138>hmm, persistent storage array for vehicles. got a patch for that...
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>that'll result in "plateau and canyon" maps
18:07<andythenorth>vehicles should not persistently store
18:07<andythenorth>it's a car crash waiting to happen
18:07<andythenorth>they should carry other vehicles though
18:07<andythenorth>notably ferries should do this
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i think it's a bad idea, expecially when mixing newgrfs
18:09<supermop>i just got a mac book air at work
18:09<@peter1138>and a patch to make windows be windows in gtk
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think we'll need that :p
18:10<@peter1138>must've been really bored one day for that one :)
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18:11<andythenorth>uh oh
18:11<@peter1138>found a source tree with perlin stuff in it
18:11*andythenorth just solved pipelines, actually properly
18:11<andythenorth>it only works for AIs, or really dedicated players
18:11<@peter1138>the big float array for storing the heightmap didn't help
18:11<supermop>hows that then?
18:12<andythenorth>road vehicle, 1l capacity, run cost £small, purchase cost £0
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you mean like rondje? buy-trave-sell?
18:12<andythenorth>AI builds a vehicle for each 1l waiting at station, travels, sells
18:12<andythenorth>this is a good idea
18:12<andythenorth>if I say so myself
18:12<@peter1138>ah, my code for rivers...
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18:13<andythenorth>did I mention rivers recently?
18:13<@peter1138>rivers are cool
18:13<andythenorth>cooler in winter than summer I reckon
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: you mean when i requested halftile rivers?
18:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am *not* drawing those
18:14<andythenorth>except I might
18:14<andythenorth>because it would look better
18:14<@peter1138>my code for river generation
18:14<@peter1138>which didn't work
18:14<supermop>non-90 degree rivers would be sweet
18:14<andythenorth>rivers that were useful would be better
18:14<@peter1138>they are
18:14<andythenorth>it's fine if you want to play 'mississipi' and have 512 flat tiles
18:14<@peter1138>shut up
18:15<Rubidium>what? Are they too bendy?
18:15<andythenorth>rivers are fine
18:15<andythenorth>3 tile locks are what sucks
18:15<andythenorth>locks should be 2 tiles
18:15*andythenorth is broken record
18:16<andythenorth>flat docks ftw
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes... who wanted to implement those?
18:16<andythenorth>$someone iirc
18:17*andythenorth is busy redrawing 50% of HEQS :P
18:17<@peter1138>is it me
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>this lazy bastard!
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>this someone guy never delivers anything
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>why do we let him develop anything anymore?
18:18<@peter1138>or is the palette animation plane not moved (or otherwise updated properly) when you scroll?
18:18<@peter1138>(in 32bpp-anim)
18:18<andythenorth>revoke his commit rights
18:19<@peter1138>hmm, apparnetly it's moved, so... hmm
18:20<@peter1138>i just get glitches in the sea when i scroll
18:25*andythenorth -> bed
18:25<@peter1138>hmm, vast oceans
18:26<andythenorth>sounds awesome
18:26<andythenorth>put some boats on them
18:26<@peter1138>hmm, i just realised my conceptual problem...
18:27<@peter1138>okay, i've decided, we need 2 heightmaps
18:27<@peter1138>they're multiplied together
18:27<@peter1138>bingo: landscape variety
18:27<@peter1138>i should rewrite this code though, heh
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>how does that add variety?
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>multiplying two perlin heightmaps sounds like resulting in just another perlin heightmap
18:28<@peter1138>with the right parameters, you get areas of ocean, areas of flat and areas of mountains
18:29<@peter1138>when making a perlin map, noise is added to the noise that's already there
18:30<@peter1138>the key is to use multiply the maps rather than adding them
18:31<andythenorth>are perlin values in the range 0-1
18:31<@peter1138>they have to be normalized
18:33*andythenorth tries to recall the hacks that made canyons
18:33<andythenorth>canyons are good
18:34<@peter1138>well yeah
18:34<@peter1138>erosion and tectonics
18:35<andythenorth>or multiply 2 perlins...
18:35<@peter1138>not as convincing
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18:37<@peter1138>erosion on a heightmap
18:37<z-MaTRiX>someone bored? :)
18:38<z-MaTRiX>i say every negative integer has factorial of 0
18:39*andythenorth stops posting random canyon pictures
18:40<z-MaTRiX>andythenorth<< mirror them <;
18:40<@Yexo>z-MaTRiX: did you actually read that wiki page? It has a paragraph titled "Non-extendability to negative integers"
18:40<z-MaTRiX>and you can visualize it on the graph they posted
18:42<andythenorth>good night
18:42<z-MaTRiX>well its kindof interesting though because +-infinity is connected with that vertical line i just described...
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18:42<z-MaTRiX>but its still zero at -integers
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18:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23084 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: get rid of a redundant variable
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19:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23085 /trunk/src/table/settings.ini: -Fix (r23084): SLE_UINT8 might have been the old type, it's not the same as the length of the variable
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20:32<+michi_cc>Secret surprise feature incoming! 8)
20:35<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23086 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_callbacks.h vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Feature: [NewGRF] Callback to change refit cost depending on old and new cargo type.
20:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23087 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Feature: Auto-refitting of vehicles during loading at a station when the vehicle allows it.
20:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23088 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Change: Extend the train order GUI with space for a forth button.
20:39<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23089 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Add: Allow specifying refits for go-to station orders.
20:40<@planetmaker>we should update the PublicServer in 20 hours
20:42<frosch123>and release a new ogfx+ in that time? :p
20:46-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:46<@planetmaker>no, I won't manage, I'm afraid. It's weekend for a birthday party in another town ...
20:47<frosch123>well, but it there some set with zero refit costs?
20:47<@planetmaker>I don't think so
20:47<@planetmaker>though... not sure
20:47<@planetmaker>might even be
20:48<frosch123>fish has no refit costs
20:48<supermop_>heqs doesnt charge you to refit last time i checked
20:49<frosch123>so, all andy sets :p
20:51<supermop_>i think egrvts is the same
20:53<+michi_cc>frosch123: I don't think there's a set that already sets the new misc flag
20:53<frosch123>good point :)
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21:09<@planetmaker>sounds like a good plan. Good night also from here
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21:22<@peter1138>it's not me :D
21:24<@peter1138>discrepancy in palette animation. yum.
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21:32<z-MaTRiX>i wrote 2 SDL example programs, 1 with double_buffer and 1 only specifying fullscreen, the double_buffer one takes 12 seconds, the fullscreen takes 13 seconds, is this because i dont have hadrware accelerated drivers now?
21:33<z-MaTRiX>(only filling whole screen with pixel values using for loops)
21:48<z-MaTRiX>hmm i think vertical retrace is always waited for
21:50<z-MaTRiX>anybody know how to turn off SDL vertical retrace synchronization?
21:57<@peter1138>using SDL_Flip?
22:04<@peter1138>that always amused me
22:04<@peter1138>i wonder what does not work
22:04<@peter1138>seems to work perfectly fine for me :)
22:10<z-MaTRiX>well hwsurface works for me too
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 04 00:00:52 2011