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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-01-21

---Logopened Sat Jan 21 00:00:55 2012
00:10<Eddi|zuHause>"Cogent shares drop 23% after Megaupload shutdown. Estimates say that about 2-3$ of Cogent's revenue came from Megaupload"
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01:05<Afdal>Anyone know why a game would suddenly stop automatically sending any and all vehicles for maintenance?
01:07<Afdal>I was playing a network game with a friend and I game is broken now
01:07<Afdal>We can't fix it in singleplayer either
01:12<Afdal>It seems like it fixed itself on its own just now
01:12<Afdal>That was really weird
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01:52<Nat_>is it just me or do copper mines cut back production after a few months?
01:52<Nat_>I can't seem to make a consistant profit off of them
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03:24<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:07<xiong>In my current chillpack (cargodist) NARS game, I was feeding Coal to a nearby Lime Kiln with road vehicles. The route was subsidized, too; I was making good money there. Suddenly they are running back and forth empty.
04:09<xiong>My station rating is still high and although an AI has hooked up and started to take Coal away to a distant industry, his rating is Mediocre and he's got Coal piling up.
04:09<xiong>My station has no cargo waiting, none planned. I switched from Full Load to timetabled service and it made no difference.
04:14<xiong>I'm wondering if this is a bug or if I'm just not playing well.
04:21<V453000>probably the latter
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04:26<xiong>V453000, Yes, you're right; I overlooked the obvious. I restructured the pickup station to handle increasing supply... and somehow the mine fell out of the catchment area.
04:27<xiong>Not obvious for some time due to the large backlog.
04:27<V453000>it is extremely rare to be otherwise :p
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04:58-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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05:51<flaa>Good morning!
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05:52<@Rubidium>good afternoon
05:55<andythenorth>Alberth: the industry open / close date idea could probably be worked into the spec
05:55<andythenorth>assuming we can implement some extra vars
05:55<andythenorth>but it has easy-to-trigger edge cases, newgrf authors would need to be careful to handle them
05:55<andythenorth>and scenario authors too
05:55<andythenorth>there are many and various
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05:57<andythenorth>e.g: date dependent graphics, date checks in cb28, cb2f, date dependent production amounts
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05:57<andythenorth>broken chains before / after certain dates
05:57<andythenorth>requirement to handle open / close explicitly
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05:59<@Alberth>huh? are you doing "cannot close industry X as that would break chain Y" now at all?
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05:59<andythenorth>can't remember how "don't close last industry" is handled by ottd
06:00<@Alberth>good afternoon Wolf01
06:00<flaa_>Have there been any Finnish players around?
06:00<andythenorth>nor what crazy code we wrote to handle closure in FIRS
06:00<@Alberth>flaa_: since the birth of Internet? most likely yes
06:00<flaa_>I'm asking because I just started a Finland based difficult server
06:01<flaa_>Which sort had been around some years ago previously
06:01<@Alberth>flaa_: euhm, you know the internet cables cross country borders of pretty much all countries, right? :D
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06:03<flaa_>What? What is this magic?
06:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: there is a protection against closure explicitly, but that may be useful for default industries only. I also added a priority system in the industry building to try 'missing' industry types first ('missing' as in the industry says one should exist, and there is none)
06:04<flaa_>I haven't seen anyone continue on that specific idea for the server since I saw it last time
06:05<flaa_>Try for yourself if you're ihterested:
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06:05<@Alberth>The main problem with MP servers is not the number of them, it is lack of proper management
06:06<@Alberth>There are 197 clients, 245 IPv4 servers and 33 IPv6 servers. <-- current state of server use
06:07<flaa>Yes, I suppose so
06:08<@Alberth>so imho, that's what you need to deal with, otherwise you're just "another empty server"
06:09<@Alberth>hi roboboy
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06:17<@Alberth>wow, there is still a 0.6.2 server :)
06:18<flaa>Somebody forgot their server running since years back?
06:18<@Alberth>quite likely :)
06:23<V453000>lol that is longer than I actually play openttd
06:24<@Alberth>oh, so you never played against the original AI? :)
06:25<@Alberth>it made such insane connections :p
06:26<V453000>I did play ttd with AI
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06:29<andythenorth>AI did make the map more interesting
06:30<V453000>just literally stupid obstacles .)
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06:31<@Alberth>and all the large terraforming all over the place.... :)
06:32*roboboy ponders going and rearanging the hard disks in his DOS pc so he can go and play some form of TTD on it
06:34<andythenorth>Alberth: if scenario editor had a gui for adding open/close dates
06:35<andythenorth>these could do any of:
06:35<andythenorth>- modify action 0 props
06:35<andythenorth>- modify action 0 props, and prevent the industry handling open cb and sending closure as cb result to production cbs
06:36<andythenorth>- store new vars, which industry authors could use optionally
06:36<andythenorth>- other?
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06:40<@Alberth>I don't speak NewGRF, so there is little I can add there.
06:40<@Alberth>Conceptually, I am not sure you want to let the SE make such decisions. It feels like too much in the sense that it may break your industry chains etc
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06:42<@Alberth>In my view, one should start with allowing hints to the industry to close down, or to stay open to prevent cases like (although that was in the time I was young and naive :P ).
06:43<@Alberth>perhaps also have a dynamic chance, so you can shift from one era to another in a better way
06:43<@Alberth>*chance of opening
06:44<@Alberth>Functionality like opening/closing dates may be better done with parameters (but they may be too limited for this kind of things)
06:45<andythenorth>parameters on the newgrf are too limited for that
06:45<roboboy>can anyone recomend some free drive copying software?
06:46<@SmatZ>roboboy: dd ?
06:46<@Alberth>I am also wondering whether it would be possible to adjust chances of industries to the map
06:46<@Alberth>roboboy: cat, tar
06:47<roboboy>I was hoping for a windows based sector based utility
06:47<roboboy>unles you can recomend a DOS one :D
06:48<flaa>What would you consider proper management of an OpenTTD server? Is it having promp availability of admins for help or something else?
06:49<@Alberth>I have pretty much 0 experiences, but it seems more about managing the players, kicking/banning people
06:52<@Alberth>in general, all things you'd like to have as a player, that does not happen by itself :p
06:53<@Alberth>many people want to have a goal for their game (even free time needs to have a purpose :( ), so that may be something you want to consider too
06:53<V453000>I would say 1. create friendly atmosphere by banning people who disagree with friendliness, 2. being there to help people, 3. making some nice an various maps (and load them neither too often, neither too rarely), 4. play there yourself and build something interesting or big and eventually teach others how to improve
06:54<@Alberth>the latter is a openttdcoop style of playing :)
06:55<V453000>not neccessarily
06:55<V453000>if you have another style, why not teach that?
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06:58<flaa>I agree, admin participation would be important as there always seems to be those who want to harrass or ruin the game for others
06:58<roboboy>hm I wonder what the best way to compile OpenTTD for DOS under Windows 7 is
06:58<@SmatZ>hello V453000 :)
06:58<V453000>hi SmatZ :)
06:58<roboboy>my DOS machines HDD is full
06:58<flaa>Aren't there binaries for Win7?
06:59<flaa>or the win32 environment
06:59<roboboy>yeah but I like to make sure both TTDP and OpenTTD keep their DOS compatability :)
07:00<@SmatZ>reminds me I wanted to compare TTDP and OTTD performance...
07:01<@Rubidium>roboboy: djgpp
07:02<roboboy>will it build DOS binaries on Windows though?
07:02<flaa>I've experienced that setting a goal in OpenTTD is generally complicated. Only the reset year is a set endpoint for any game
07:02<@Rubidium>roboboy: if it builds binaries, it'll be building Windows binaries
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07:03<@Alberth>flaa: you know about NoGo in the new releases?
07:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23827 /trunk/src/ (37 files in 7 dirs): -Feature [FS#4992]: [NoGo] Allow to chose the goal question window's title from a (small) set of options
07:04<@SmatZ>hello Zuu :)
07:04<@Rubidium>Zuu: sorry, I've just broke the tutorial ;)
07:04<Zuu>Its a welcome change :-)
07:04<@Alberth>but 'goal' is just one style of playing, you may want another style instead
07:04<Zuu>Hello SmatZ
07:05<flaa>CIA-1: how does it work?
07:06<Zuu>Hmm, actually a good idea now to checkout + build my own build to use the new feature and see why I can crash OpenTTD with my save game. :-)
07:08<flaa>I suppose you're referring to this:
07:09<Zuu>flaa: CIA-1 is a bot
07:09<Zuu>That thread is indeed about the NoGo framework that is referenced in that commit message.
07:09<@Alberth>flaa: it reports a change in source code
07:10<roboboy>hm, need to do it in dosbox
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07:17<@Rubidium>roboboy: ;)
07:17<@Rubidium>roboboy: totally untested though ;)
07:17<roboboy>oo thanks
07:18<roboboy>I don't care that it's untested.
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07:20<roboboy>I shall try it once I have djgpp set up under dosbox
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07:43<Zuu>IS there anything strange with "STR_INTRO_2 :Chapters:{}{}1. Airplanes{}2. Ships{}3. Road Vehicles{}4. Trains
07:43<Zuu>" ? OpenTTD crashes on this string when loading the savegame attached to the GS tutorial thread.
07:44<Hirundo>No GS should ever make ottd crash
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07:45<Zuu>I know, and will make a proper bug report. I was just interested to test with the debuger to see what it crashes on.
07:46<@planetmaker>Zuu, all strings I saw in the tutorial are perfectly normal strings
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07:48<frosch123>hmm, need to step higher.. it crashed on saving the crash sav :p
07:49<frosch123>it strdups a NULL string in Load_GSTR
07:50<Zuu>Now the bug exist at FS as FS#4996
07:50<frosch123>do you have some empty string?
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07:50<Zuu>The file contains empty rows
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07:52<Zuu>To give some separation. But that is also used in english.txt of OpenTTD.
07:52<Zuu>The row after STR_INTRO_2 is an empty row.
07:53<Zuu>I can additionally add that in the script version that saved that savegame there existed an instance where the script passed a string parameter that was never used by english.txt.
07:54<frosch123>no i meant some STR_blabla:
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07:55<frosch123>i.e. nothing after the :
07:58<@Rubidium>it doesn't look like language file has those empty strings
07:59<frosch123> <- that makes it load again
07:59<frosch123>the saveload code returns an empty string as NULL
07:59<frosch123>but the later processing of langfiles cannot handle NULL either, thus I added strdup("")
08:00<@Rubidium>it needs a != NULL for coding style
08:00<frosch123>i wonder whether it is worth to also fix the other code, so it can actually deal with NULL
08:01<frosch123>or whether that would only make stuff inconsistent and complicated
08:01<@Rubidium>there shouldn't be NULL strings
08:01<Zuu>No, the english.txt of the tutorial doesn't contain any empty strings as in nothing after the colon.
08:01<frosch123>hmm, i have already 4 supoerlibs installed, and bananas suggests me a fifth :p
08:02<frosch123>but i still do not have the util.superlib which that save needs
08:02<Zuu>hehe, if Microsoft thinks GPL is a cancer, then I wonder what they would think about superlib :-p
08:03<frosch123>where do i find the required util.superlib?
08:03<Zuu>in main.nut of the gamescript/ais in use.
08:04<frosch123>i mean i have all superlibs installed i could find, but it still fails to load that tutorial save
08:04<Zuu>It turns out that Tutorial uses version 18 of "SuperLib for Nogo"
08:04<Zuu>You can probably change it to 19 without any problem.
08:05<@Rubidium>I see no reasons why NULL would be returned though
08:05<Zuu>19 is the one that you can get from bananas I think.
08:05<frosch123>Rubidium: saveload.cpp:1088
08:05<Zuu>(without having a script that depends on it that isu
08:06<frosch123>yeah, i have 19.1 :)
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08:07<@Rubidium>frosch123: oh... doh...
08:07<Zuu>I think 19.1 is what it says on bananas, but else where it says just 19.
08:07<frosch123>Rubidium: though i wonder how that works with the later ((char *)ptr)[len] = '\0';
08:08<Zuu>The reason is that I picked the wrong license in bananas. The only other change is an extra space in a comment somewhere.
08:09<frosch123>i think that line should even access (*ptr)[len]
08:09<frosch123>actually, i cannot tell from that function whether ptr is (char*) or (char**) :/
08:10<@Rubidium>frosch123: line 1091 ;)
08:10<frosch123>yeah, but that is missing from the other case
08:10<frosch123>so, it worky by luck :p
08:10<@Rubidium>well, when setting it to NULL, it should just return I guess
08:10<@Rubidium>the rest is validation
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08:13<frosch123>hmm, so, is there an easy way to store the required ais, gses and libraries in the save, so i can get them from bananas?
08:13<frosch123>it is kind of stupid if the save requires superlib 18, but there is no way to get it :p
08:13<@Rubidium>yup, just store their ID and HASH
08:14<@Rubidium>of the AIs/game scripts
08:14<@Rubidium>then bananas will do the rest (i.e. select the dependencies)
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08:15<frosch123> <- so, is that enough for fs#4996 ?
08:16<@Rubidium>yup, though you could move the ternary operator to the strdup parameter
08:17<frosch123>true, done
08:18<Zuu>Rubidium: The problem here is that the GS Tutorial is not on bananas (yet), but it uses SuperLib 18. This requirement is not stored in the save game. With frosch123 proposal I think in this particular case OpenTTD would be able to get superlib18 for him.
08:20<@Rubidium>that smells like a lot of work for a small thing
08:20<@Rubidium>that'd not even work when you'd use superlib 20 which you hasn't been put on bananas yet
08:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23828 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: Return early from SlString() for empty strings, before doing invalid things which surprisingly do not break everything.
08:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r23829 /trunk/src/saveload/game_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4996]: Loading empty GS strings/translations failed.
08:25<@Rubidium>it's actually empty lines in the translation file ;)
08:26<roboboy>hmm my DOS disk is full and I can't fit the newOpenTTD files. Will try it once I migrate to a larger disk
08:26<frosch123>really? then that should be fixed as well :)
08:27<@Rubidium>frosch123: translation files are the files in lang/* in this case
08:27<@Rubidium>after all, we're storing the unencoded version in the savegame and encoding that upon loading
08:28<frosch123>well, is it about "STR_BLABLA:" or about completely empty liens?
08:28<Zuu>There are completely empty lines
08:28<Zuu>and a line with a comment
08:28<@Rubidium>completely empty lines
08:28<frosch123>those should not be stored, should they?
08:28<Zuu>Why would you store them?
08:29<@Rubidium>so the warning/errors give the right line number?
08:29<Zuu>good point
08:30<frosch123>are there errors which do not require the gs to be present?
08:30<frosch123>or are the lang files only read when starting a new game?
08:32<Zuu>There is also an open question that relates to the string system. How to make it possible to upgrade the GS in a running game from one version to another. As with AIs. TrueBrain told me that there is an issue with how to deal with strings/translations in that case.
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08:33<Zuu>An alternative to allow upgarding is to only allow savegames/scenarios without any GS to load a GS after they have been created.
08:34<Zuu>If none of these are allowed, making a GS for a specific scenario becomes very hard to maintain with future releases.
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08:38<Zuu>For AIs there is AIInfo::MinVersionToLoad() which is a way for AIs to tell the minimum version of the AI themself that it can accept when loading old save games. Thus there is a way for AIs to mark a new version inable to load (too) old saves. So if the first approach is used, a similar fuction can give enough control for GS authors to stop a scenario+GS combo to load a new GS version on an old scenario.
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08:41<Dozzer_X>Is there any beta 32bit version?
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08:42<Zuu>Could you be a bit more specific about what you are looking for?
08:42<Zuu>beta as in 1.2 beta?
08:42<Zuu>Plain OpenTTD can since long load 32bit graphics.
08:43<Dozzer_X>But how to install the 32bit graphics?
08:43<Dozzer_X>For what I've found on the wiki, there are loads of files...
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08:44<Zuu>I never tried to load the 32bit graphics myself.
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08:50<roboboy>hm I wonder if 32Bpp works under DOS. May test when I move to a larger HDD
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08:51<frosch123>do you have libpng for dos?
08:51<Dozzer_X>But is there any full pack of 32pp graphics?
08:52<@Rubidium>Dozzer_X: no
08:52<roboboy>I didn't compile it. Can I find out if it was built with it?
08:53<roboboy>without asking the person that compiled it.
08:53<@Rubidium>you could use e.g. strings to see the strings in the binary
08:53<frosch123>can you do png screenshots?
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08:53<@Rubidium>if there's lot a png functions, and even the version number in it then it's probably compiled with png support
08:54<roboboy>i'm pretty sure I can take png screenies
08:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r23830 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp): -Revert (r23804) [FS#4986]: while the idea was good, it causes too much trouble
08:58-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
08:58<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by yexo :: r23804 /trunk/src (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp) (2012-01-15 13:17:02 UTC)
08:58<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix: [NewGRF] Make string code 80 more secure by not crashing when it's used in strings where it's not supposed to be used
08:59<@Yexo>that string code is abused in too many places, which I currently can't be bothered to track down and fix
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09:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23831 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Prepare: 1.2.0-beta3
09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23832 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 7 changes by Wowanxm
09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frisian - 49 changes by Flexo
09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 7 changes by Jogio, planetmaker
09:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
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09:35<flaa>Any idea what setting I have misconfigured? My map has too many cities although I have custom_town_number at 1 and the diff_custom setting on 0
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09:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23833 /tags/1.2.0-beta3/: -Release: 1.2.0-beta3
09:39<@SmatZ>flaa: set numbet_towns 4
09:39<@SmatZ>0 is for "very low"
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09:48<flaa>I just realized diff_custom is completely deprecated
09:49<flaa>SmatZ: That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you!
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10:03<Eddi|zuHause>we have 76 warnings for the german vehicles left
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>and a bunch more for the non-german ones
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>random thought: if the pathfinder goes through a depot, don't consider signal states and path reservations afterwards
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11:12<Rhamphoryncus>Thought on timetabling: game tracks the average time between stops and presents it to the user as a minimum time, in day:hour:minute format, one time for each stop. User bumps it up a little to have a fudge factor and to make it look pretty. User also has an overall-fudge so the schedule syncs from day to day. Each station departs at that time, or has up to one pending departure, but if they're consistently behind they'll skip
11:12<Rhamphoryncus> having a pending departure (to get back on schedule).
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11:15<frosch123>why do you timetable travels at all?
11:16<Rhamphoryncus>Controlling in day:hour:minute would be fun, but the core goal is to space out the vehicles
11:17<frosch123>imo timetabling loading times is enough for spacing vehicles
11:17<Rhamphoryncus>really? I don't think I've tried that
11:17<frosch123>if the clump up, the vehicles will block the other vehicles from entering the stations
11:18*Rhamphoryncus nods
11:18<frosch123>usually the problem is only that vehicles which follow afterwards leave the station immediately since there is no cargo. but that is solved timetabling the loading time
11:19<Rhamphoryncus>Is there a trick to it? Do you pick a duration of route time/vehicle count?
11:19<frosch123>depends on how long the vehicles will take to load. i.e. their capacity and the production
11:20<frosch123>for bus stops i usually use 2 to 5 days at stations with few cargo, and none at stations which are not emptied by a bus anyway
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11:23<andythenorth>what can we argue about then agree not to fix today?
11:24<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: vehicle overtaking
11:26<@Terkhen>rating in town label
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11:33<Rhamphoryncus>cargo waiting in station label
11:34<andythenorth>road vehicles do overtake
11:34<andythenorth>where's the problem? :)
11:36<frosch123>yeah, default rv overtake. rest must be bugs of the newgrfs
11:36<frosch123>or ask for a newgrf which implements overtaking?
11:39<andythenorth>newgrf solves all ills
11:39<andythenorth>I think Eddi|zuHause said every road tile should be a state machine?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, every road tile is already a state machine, just it's not customizable
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11:49<andythenorth>frosch123: here you go, found this:
11:49<andythenorth>nostalgia again :P
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11:58<Zuu>What is best "Tutorial" or "Game Tutorial" as the name of the game tutorial?
11:58*Zuu is going to upload it to bananas now
11:59<frosch123>i would rather choose something like "Beginner Tutorial"
11:59<V453000>definitely not "SEE THIS NOOB" :p
11:59<frosch123>or Gameplay Tutorial
11:59<Zuu>frosch123: both good suggestions
12:01<Zuu>I tihkn that I like "Beginner Tutorial" a bit more.
12:01<frosch123>depends on what you want to add in the future :)
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12:01<Zuu>hehe indeed :-)
12:02<Zuu>I fancy that advanced rail tutorials is better to keep in a separate tutorial.
12:03<Zuu>The tutorial framework than I've worked on can easily be split out into a library then. :-)
12:03<Zuu>Or the author of that other tutorial have his/her own idea on how to organize the code.
12:05<@planetmaker>depends on what you call "advanced" wrt rail, I think
12:05<@planetmaker>Beginner Tutorial is a good name
12:12<andythenorth>I can tell nml to search for strings in a different file?
12:12<andythenorth>but can I tell it to not look for .lang files, but instead use strings inline?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>what do you need that for?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>no, strings must come from the .lng file
12:13<andythenorth>I could patch nml?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a missing feature, it's a deliberate design decision
12:14<andythenorth>I want to be able to use a single copy-paste from web cms to a file in BANDIT
12:14<andythenorth>separate lang file means 2 copy-pastes
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>why not have your web-cms autogenerate the lang file then?
12:17<andythenorth>I can do that
12:17<Zuu>planetmaker: I've now uploaded it as "Beginner Tutorial" and also uploaded a hidden scenario (max r1) with the same name to claim the same name for when we get a dedicated scenario for the tutorial.
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12:18<andythenorth>but means I have to copy paste twice
12:18<andythenorth>I could have the makefile curl, but that is a horrible dependency
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12:18<andythenorth>and moot, because I have no idea how to do that either
12:18<@planetmaker>very nice, Zuu :-)
12:19<Zuu>Actually, I could make the scenario already and set it up with bananas and flags as I want, only that I would have to make a new scenario for each release. :-(
12:19<andythenorth>my aim is to get the strings into the same file as all the vehicle defines
12:19<@planetmaker>a new scenario for each release?
12:19<andythenorth>I can't CPP them in afaik, because lang file is processed before vehicle include
12:19<@planetmaker>as it's saved with the script?
12:19<Zuu>because the scenario link to a specific GS version.
12:19<@planetmaker>it clearly needs a developer setting ;-)
12:19<Zuu>and there is no way to postpone this linking to just before release or update that link.
12:20<Zuu>I have made some feature requests on FS for that :-)
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can preprocess the lang file
12:20*andythenorth should try that
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: CETS creates the lang file from a fixed part and an autogenerated part
12:21<andythenorth>maybe I should try that
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause>i should extend that to actually handle translations some time
12:21<andythenorth>can't see how to add arbitrary number of vehicle names that way?
12:22*andythenorth is low on sleep
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12:23<andythenorth>the cms outputs this:
12:23<andythenorth>which copy-pastes into a file in sprites/nml
12:23<andythenorth>dunno how I use that to also generate lang
12:23<andythenorth>patching nml to just use strings directly seemed plausible
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>trust me, it's not
12:25<andythenorth>I didn't try that either yet :P
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12:26<andythenorth>maybe I could just do
12:26<andythenorth>#define FOO_STRING str_name_veh_hackler_A :Hackler A
12:27<andythenorth>but I'd still need to search in a lang file
12:28<andythenorth>can I define vehicles in a lang file?
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12:31<andythenorth>what's the case for separate lang files?
12:31*andythenorth assumes it's not just an arbitrary restriction
12:31<frosch123>translators and coders are not the same
12:31<andythenorth>so with nfo that was optional
12:31<andythenorth>not enforced
12:32<frosch123>translations could be fed to wt3 as well
12:32*andythenorth is once again stuck with BANDIT
12:33<andythenorth>thought I'd solved it :P
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>just make your web-cms generate the whole lang file over all vehicles
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>and live with the second copying
12:35<andythenorth>inelegant :P
12:35<andythenorth>and the rest of it *so* elegant :P
12:36<andythenorth>as long as you don't look too much
12:37<andythenorth>can a shell script split a file on a known delimiter, and write a new file?
12:37<frosch123>add "#ifdef LANG == english\nSTR_BLA:boo\n#elif lang == hungarian\nSTR_BLA:doo\n#else\ncode#endif"
12:37<SpComb>andythenorth: shell scripts can do anything!
12:38<frosch123>depends on the shell :p
12:39*andythenorth remembers he knows a small bit of python
12:39<andythenorth>can the makefile call a python script?
12:39<andythenorth>can a python script write a file?
12:39<andythenorth>does it have permissions and such?
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>that's how my generator works
12:39<@Alberth>if you give it enough rights, yes :)
12:40<andythenorth>this might be sovled with three lines of python
12:40<andythenorth>if I change the makefile, do I have to maintain it myself?
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12:40<SpComb>cat $input | cut -d '$delim' --output-delimiter=' ' -f 1- | while read a b c d; do ...; done
12:41<frosch123>hmm, who was the guy in this channel flaming about usage of "cat bla | "
12:42<SpComb>cat abuse
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the CETS custom stuff is in scripts/
12:43<andythenorth>4 lines of python maybe
12:43*andythenorth visits CETS
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>which, as far as i understand, is independent from the rest
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12:45<Eddi|zuHause>there's some magic about dependencies which i didn't update in a while
12:51*andythenorth has been writing code for >10 years, but has never written code that writes to a file :o
12:51<andythenorth>always been scared of it
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12:56<@Alberth>python > myfile :)
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13:06<andythenorth>all my code has been written for places where you just don't have the right to write :)
13:09<@Alberth>normally you explicitly state where you want the output to go to, you don't just write in the current directory. That way you can put the python code anywhere, and execute the program from anywhere
13:12<andythenorth>in a newgrf you won't know the absolute path?
13:12<andythenorth>it's whatever someone's repo location is
13:12<andythenorth>do I need to read some environment vars, or use relative paths? or which? :)
13:15<@Alberth>relative paths are the easiest
13:15<@Alberth>the someone can easily wrap it in a script :p
13:16<andythenorth>in this case, the someone will be me :P
13:16<andythenorth>modifying the makefile
13:16<@Alberth>Makefile is also a script ;)
13:17<@Rubidium>Zuu: for the tutorial you might want to check certain settings. For example, when adding orders my current settings don't automatically select "go to" so when following the manual methodically I'm just getting the airport view instead of the order
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13:18<nat_as>why can't I ever make a profit moving copper?
13:18<nat_as>as soon as I get a line running, the production seems to slow to a trickle
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13:19<Zuu>Rubidium: That setting is actually on my list already.
13:20<Zuu>But for some reason I decided not to implement it yet.
13:20<@Rubidium>Zuu: also make sure to mention not to click on the hangar when assigning orders ;)
13:20<Zuu>Good point
13:20<@planetmaker>Zuu: instead of adding the lang file to the posting you might want to link the one from the repo (especially when it's only for reference):
13:21<@Rubidium>later on it mentions the hangar when looking at the cargo of the airport
13:21<@planetmaker>and you can also use it to show diffs:
13:22<Zuu>It used the worng word for the wrong thing at several places which I have fixed, but it has probably some left stil.
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13:23<@planetmaker>what's your question?
13:23<plhalaser>can someone help me with
13:23<plhalaser>Makefile:234: recipe for target `ai/ai_gui.o' failed
13:23<plhalaser>make[1]: *** [ai/ai_gui.o] Error 1
13:23<plhalaser>make[1]: Leaving directory `/cygdrive/c/ottd/objs/release'
13:23<plhalaser>Makefile:57: recipe for target `all' failed
13:23<plhalaser>make: *** [all] Error 1
13:23<@Alberth>nat_as: always have a train loading
13:24<nat_as>and don't let it leave untill it's full?
13:24<plhalaser>-/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/tcp_http.h:42: note: Net -workHTTPSocketHandler::NetworkHTTPSocketHandler(const NetworkHTTPSocketHandler&)
13:24<plhalaser>-/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/os_abstraction.h: At global scope:
13:24<plhalaser>-/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/os_abstraction.h:287: warning: 'SetNonBl -ocking' defined but not used
13:24<plhalaser>-/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/os_abstraction.h:306: warning: 'SetNoDel -ay' defined but not used
13:24<plhalaser>Makefile:234: recipe for target `ai/ai_gui.o' failed
13:24<plhalaser>make[1]: *** [ai/ai_gui.o] Error 1
13:24<plhalaser>make[1]: Leaving directory `/cygdrive/c/ottd/objs/release'
13:24<plhalaser>Makefile:57: recipe for target `all' failed
13:24<plhalaser>make: *** [all] Error 1
13:25<__ln__>plhalaser: ever heard of a pastebin?
13:25<@planetmaker>plhalaser: don't use this channel for pasting stuff. Use a paste service
13:25<nat_as>my problem is when I connect the copper mine it's production is great and I build a big huge train to haul it in
13:25<@Alberth>nat_as: yes, and use shorter trains if you don't have a lot of output from the mine
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13:25<nat_as>then production drops off and my huge train is a waste of money
13:25<plhalaser>im first time on IRC
13:25<@planetmaker>paste the text on something like
13:26<@planetmaker>it's much better readable. And give us the link
13:26<@Rubidium>has anybody even tested cygwin recently?
13:26<@Alberth> <- paste in there, then paste the link here
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13:26<@Alberth>nat_as: start with shorter trains, I normally have at least 2, so there is always one loading
13:26<@Rubidium>but I'm only seeing warnings, not the reason why it'd fail
13:26<nat_as>another less serious problem is my feeders don't seem to run a transfer credit profit, but the main line still makes enough money for both of them, when it's actualy getting filled up that is.
13:27<@Alberth>nat_as: something slow at the end of the feeder chain?
13:27<nat_as>it's really short
13:27<plhalaser>better ;)
13:27<nat_as>maybe I should use trucks instead.
13:27<@Alberth>plhalaser: much better, thank you :)
13:28<nat_as>short and up hill, but it only goes uphill empty.
13:28<nat_as>they should invent gravity power trains
13:29<nat_as>cars going uphill empty get pulled by the cars going downhill full.
13:29<nat_as>all connected by cables.
13:29<nat_as>free energy as long as you have something to load the cars with.
13:29<@Alberth>nat_as: the intermediate steps are just rough estimates, the final destination is the 'real' payment - the already estimated payments.
13:29<@Alberth>if the estimates were too large, you get a negative payment at the end
13:30<nat_as>transfer is just so the feeders don't bug you with "Negative income" every year?
13:30<@Rubidium>plhalaser: I fear OpenTTD simply doesn't compile with cygwin anymore
13:30<nat_as>then why is the feeder not giving me any profit if the main line is earning enough to pay for the feeder and itself?
13:30<@Rubidium>as far as I'm aware barely anyone uses it, especially under the developers
13:30<@Alberth>transfer means 'this cargo will be transfered further'
13:31<@Alberth>it is not paid for until you deliver it by unloading (without transfer)
13:31<@Alberth>see also the feeder systems wiki pages
13:31<plhalaser>oo, what i can use instead cygwin?
13:32<@Rubidium>mingw or Microsoft's Visual C++ (Express)
13:32<@Alberth>install Linux, and use gcc :p
13:32<plhalaser>oki i try mingw thx for now ;)
13:33<@Rubidium>there's a manual at the wiki telling you what to do exactly
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13:33<plhalaser>nono i seen linux 1 time and im happy for windows
13:33<@planetmaker>Alberth: with mingw he uses gcc, too ;-)
13:33<@planetmaker>as he'd do with cygwin :-P
13:33<@Rubidium>plhalaser: then why are you using cygwin? ;)
13:33<@Alberth>phew! :D
13:34<@Rubidium>"Cygwin is a collection of tools which provide a Linux look and feel environment for Windows"
13:34<plhalaser>i found manual with pictures step by step xDD
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13:35<@Rubidium>then use Microsoft's Visual C++. That's the least linux-y way of compiling OpenTTD on Windows
13:35<@Rubidium>although then I'm wondering what you're trying to compile
13:35<Zuu>If you get the TortoriseSVN or how it is spelled, you will not even have to use a terminal.
13:36<@Rubidium>Zuu: lose the second r
13:36<plhalaser>beta with daylenght, singlals in tunels and new airports
13:36<@Rubidium>so you're patching yourself as well?
13:37<Zuu>That said, I have stoped used TortoiseSVN in favor for command line tools.
13:37<@Alberth>plhalaser: first try to compile without patching to check the compiler setup
13:38<plhalaser>it was in manual, and i try it first time 4 year ago and it works, and i think -that was bad idea- its would be same xDD
13:38<@Alberth>why do you use beta for that? you might as well use trunk
13:38<@planetmaker>plhalaser: then... did you try cygwin with unpatched source?
13:38<plhalaser>not today
13:39<plhalaser>just 4 yars ago
13:39<plhalaser>i know xD
13:39<@Alberth>plhalaser: people are impatient ;)
13:39<@planetmaker>Well. Try with unpatched source. Though I fear the patches won't break where your compilation seems broken
13:39<Zuu>You'll certainly need to update some of the libraries then.
13:40<@Alberth>or install some; the ./configure output may also give clues what are missing
13:40<nat_as>how come copper mines are so varriable in there production?
13:40<nat_as>when lumbermills are so steady?
13:40<plhalaser>no, i install cygwin today
13:40<@Alberth>nat_as: it's random
13:40<plhalaser>i go try microsoft visual c++
13:41<nat_as>and lumber mills just make wood for each tree they cut?
13:41<plhalaser>thx for now bb
13:41<nat_as>so they aren't random?
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13:42<frosch123>lumber mill have constant production until trees run out
13:42<@Alberth>nat_as: until they run out of trees :p but it depends on the climate
13:42<nat_as>but you can just PLANT MORE TREES!
13:42<nat_as>which also makes towns HAPPY
13:42<nat_as>lumber mills are the best deal ever.
13:43<Zuu>Hmm, sounds like a nice GS -> auto planting of trees for lumber mills.
13:43<@Alberth>it is far easier to not upset towns :p
13:43<nat_as>automaticly remove tress so you can replant them
13:43<nat_as>not if you want to ever deliver cargo to them
13:43<@Alberth>Zuu: weird goals you have :)
13:44<Zuu>well, not really a goal, more of a utility script.
13:44<nat_as>or maybe I just have a hard time because my favorite map is filled with jungle.
13:44<nat_as>it's hard to connect towns without cutting down a lot of trees
13:44<nat_as>and then there is little room to plant more trees
13:44<nat_as>so towns get angry
13:45<Zuu>Build stations before other infrastructure.
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23834 /trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: serbian - 3 changes by etran
13:45<Zuu>And if they get angry, cut down all forest round the town and build it up again.
13:47<frosch123>do you have heard of ufos burning circles into forests?
13:48<@Alberth>I only heard about circles in cropfields
13:53<@planetmaker>nat_as: always build the station(s) first. Then the infrastructure around
13:54<@planetmaker>that helps a lot ;-)
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13:55<nat_as>I do
13:55<nat_as>sitll pisses them off
13:55<plhalaser>hi i back for a while, ive been trying clean beta version and last nightly, ant was same error
13:56<nat_as>and makes it anoying when I want to trim there roads, or make expansions.
13:56<@Alberth>nat_as: provide good service to your stations and be patient :)
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13:59<@Alberth>it looks like you are missing network header files
13:59<@Alberth>ie SOCKET looks like something that your compiler should have
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14:00<@Alberth>does the configure give messages that it is missing stuff?
14:01<nat_as>man, why is cargodest not in core?
14:01<nat_as>it's the best thing to happen to TT since TTD
14:01<@Alberth>solution is not good enough
14:02<andythenorth>none of the three solutions are good enough :(
14:02*andythenorth has sadface
14:02<nat_as>well I think Simutrans' system is overcomplex,
14:02<plhalaser>WARNING: lzma was not detected or disabled that was on configure, ive try install everything with lzma in name but still it do
14:02<nat_as>and makes it really hard when moving cargo
14:02<nat_as>because the industries stop producing when the destination has enough cargo
14:03<nat_as>really all that's nessary is to make passengers move from station to station.
14:03<nat_as>cargodest should at least be in core as an option.
14:04<@planetmaker>plhalaser: yes, it's a highly recommended library
14:04<@planetmaker>might be called something with xz ?
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14:06<andythenorth>python .format() could be used for templating
14:07<andythenorth>as no doubt could many other things :P
14:08<plhalaser>i try install all libs
14:09*andythenorth just wrote his first file programatically
14:09<andythenorth>I hope you're all proud
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14:11<@Alberth> <-- like that :)
14:11*Alberth is very proud of andy
14:12<andythenorth>I was trying to figure out if I could write a $ parser myself
14:12<andythenorth>never thought to check if the language had one :P
14:13<andythenorth>possibly I could abandon the web cms
14:13<andythenorth>but where's the fun?
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14:16<nat_as>man, I was skimming through grf tutorials last night, damn that's complicated.
14:17<nat_as>but then aggain when I made trains for simutrans I just made the sprites and somebody else did the code for me :V
14:17<frosch123>nml or nfo tutorials?
14:20<nat_as>NML i think
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14:23<@planetmaker>nat_as: depends on how complicated you want your vehicles
14:23<@planetmaker>it can be done quite easy. Just a few sprites. And attached to a vehicle with its properties
14:23<@planetmaker>Not frills like different cargos and stuff
14:24<plhalaser>have any of you experience with Earth 2140?
14:24<frosch123>no, i am still stuck in 2012
14:24-!-glevans2 [] has joined #openttd
14:26<plhalaser>oh well ;(
14:27<andythenorth>will this be valid lang file for nml? it has spurious newlines
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14:29<andythenorth>python appears to ignore them anyway so meh
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14:34<andythenorth>how to merge lang :P
14:36-!-TWerkhoven [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:49<@Alberth>print adds a newline itself, so do a line.rstrip() after reading the line from a file :p
14:49<@Alberth>(20:17:16) andythenorth: never thought to check if the language had one :P <-- a common problem with Python, they have all the nice bits you want to write already in a library :(
14:55<@Alberth>plhalaser: I do calculations for, but never looked at the results
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15:00<valhallasw>Alberth: still no collation support though :(
15:01<valhallasw>and still no reasonable way to use py2 libs from py3 :p
15:02<@Alberth>py2 libs are never going to be compatible with py3, they all have to be checked and upgraded manually
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15:02<valhallasw>which is batshit crazy
15:03<valhallasw>I can run LabVIEW code from python
15:03<@Alberth>no idea what "collation support" means, it looks like a data-base thingie
15:03<valhallasw>why can't I run python code from python?
15:03<valhallasw>collation support = how to sort characters
15:03<valhallasw>python can only sort using the unicode character number
15:03<@Alberth>valhallasw: python3 is not supposed to be compatible
15:04<valhallasw>Alberth: LabVIEW is also not 'supposed to be compatible'
15:04<valhallasw>the python3 interpreter cannot load python2 code, that makes sense
15:04<@Alberth>they are throwing obsolete stuff out and did a lot of re-engeinnering
15:04<valhallasw>but it makes absolutely no sense it's impossible to run the python2 code *using the python2 libraries* from python3
15:04<@Alberth>valhallasw: 2->3 is the first time in 15+ years that they do this
15:05<@planetmaker>biggest issue for me to upgrade to py3 is pil
15:05<@planetmaker>python without PIL is... meh.
15:05<valhallasw>Alberth: I know. You're missing the point.
15:05<andythenorth>(a) PIL is a pain in the ass
15:05<@Alberth>apparently I am :)
15:05<andythenorth>(b) why didn't I learn python read / write files years ago :P
15:05<andythenorth>could have saved a lot of trouble
15:05<valhallasw>You can compile a C library using <random c compiler> and use the compiled library from c++ code, compiled with <different compiler>
15:06<@Alberth>andy: you skipped the wrong chapter of the tutorial?
15:06<valhallasw>Why can't the python2 lib be interpreted by python 2, but used by python3 code?
15:06<@Alberth>valhallasw: haha, you cannot even compile old C++ with a c++ compiler :D
15:06<@planetmaker>:-) trueish
15:07<valhallasw>Alberth: but you can install the old compiler, compile it with that one
15:07<valhallasw>and still use the library
15:07<@Alberth>valhallasw: right, please find any open source software aged > 10 years :)
15:07<valhallasw>how is that relevant?
15:08<@Alberth>valhallasw: as you can install and run python 2 interpreter :)
15:08<valhallasw>but I can use the library I compiled with the *old* compiler from code I compile with a recent compiler
15:09<@Alberth>you link against the common c/c++ library, which also moves in time
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15:10<valhallasw>hm. not sure about that
15:10<@Alberth>I think it is brave they dare breaking compability with python 3, it gives a lot of room for them to clean out the old cruft
15:11<valhallasw>with a changed libc, you have the same problem as with python, anyway
15:11<valhallasw>duplicate function names in c-space
15:11<valhallasw>(at least: that's afaik the reason you cannot just load the python2 interpreter from python3 code, while you can load, say, the perl or ruby interpreters)
15:12<@Alberth>and you can also do that with anything < 3
15:12<andythenorth>Alberth: I never read a python tutorial :P
15:12<andythenorth>I just started using it
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15:12<@Alberth>valhallasw: 2-3 is the only point where it breaks, before it always works, and after it it will also work for a long time
15:14-!-pecisk_latvia is now known as pecisk
15:14<valhallasw>that was, again, not my point
15:14<@Alberth>andy: who knows what treasures are still hidden in the tutorial :)
15:15<valhallasw>it makes total perfect sense the python 3 interpreter cannot load python 2 code
15:15<@Alberth>valhallasw: I am sure perl and ruby also have or will have some points where they break
15:15<valhallasw>Alberth: I'm talking about embedding the perl interpreter *in a python script* using the C api
15:16<valhallasw>inconvenient, but possible
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15:16<valhallasw> < oh, look, someone *actually* did that
15:16<@Alberth>I'd add a virtual server in a virtual client to be safe
15:18<valhallasw>"'pyperl' is an extension module that bridges the gap between Perl and Python. It allows Python code to invoke Perl code and operate directly on Perl data and permits Perl code to do the same to Python code and data. This provides for almost seamless integration between the languages and thereby greatly expands the library of modules available to each of the languages." < so if it can be done for perl, why not for py2? ;-)
15:18-!-pecisk [~peteris@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
15:23<@Alberth>ie converting the python code to py3 is simpler
15:23<nat_as>oh god I asked a question then AFKED I'm terrible
15:23<valhallasw>Alberth: yeah, let me just port all the libraries I need
15:23<valhallasw>oh, wait.
15:24<nat_as>anyways, my question was about making a set of fictonal trains that were balanced and usefull
15:24<valhallasw>it's just not true: if there is a python2 library you need, for which there is not a python3 replacement, it forces you to use python2
15:24<nat_as>as opposed to the sets of real trains which all have overly specific uses and are only really good for raillfans.
15:27<@Alberth>nat_as: unfortunately, different people have different ideas of "balanced and usefull". But yeah, you can make your own :)
15:28<@Alberth>there are plenty of people around here that understand nfo and/or nml, just try, and when you get stuck, ask for help here, or at the forum (graphics section)
15:29<@planetmaker>nat_as: you could help me expand the OpenGFX+ Trains to earlier (and later) years
15:30<nat_as>what i mean by balanced and usefull is at every erra there will be a train that's good for Passingers a train that's good for cargo/general use, and a train that's good for heavy cargo/hills.
15:30<nat_as>also a simple-er aircraft list
15:30<nat_as>and actual cargo airplanes.
15:30<@planetmaker>The default trains are not that badly balanced... but can be slightly improved
15:30<nat_as>like a C130 ish aircraft that can land on small strips without crashing and carry lots of cargo would be cool.
15:30<nat_as>the defaul trains are nice, but only in the temprate climate
15:30<@planetmaker>is that balanced then?
15:31<nat_as>in tropical or artic they don't exist.
15:31<nat_as>the C130 would be balanced by being slow.
15:31<nat_as>and not able to carry passingers.
15:31<nat_as>it's a niche role
15:31<@planetmaker>nat_as: OpenGFX+Trains gives you the choice to also use the temperate ones in tropical or arctic ;-)
15:31<nat_as>for things like mail and gold/diamonds/valuables
15:31<nat_as>ohh cool
15:32<@planetmaker>hm, I hope it's true for the version currently on bananas. It will be true for the one up next Sunday in any case
15:33<plhalaser>then i install everything what i can and still same error on configure with lzma, i go try other compiler
15:34<@planetmaker>plhalaser: lzma is not a compiler thing. It's just a library
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15:34<nat_as>I think the train I made for Simutrans is in the actual game, I made a cargo train (forget the name) a double-stack container car, and an FP40PH (I don't know if that one is in)
15:35<plhalaser>i know i install cygwin full everytning what i can from list
15:35<@Yexo>the cygwin compiler is not supported IIRC
15:35<nat_as>I left simutrans however because the interface and graphics other people were making were garbage.
15:36<nat_as>WHY do people think tracing 3d models is a good way to make sprites?
15:36<nat_as>no I take that back, there have been good games that did that, but it's not generally a good idea for tile based isometric building games.
15:39<@Alberth>RRT and RCT did make a lot of money on it :p
15:40<nat_as>I guess the problem is when you see it next to traditional pixel art.
15:40<nat_as>it looks really really ugly.
15:40<@Alberth>people started making sprites that way, so they don't know how to make them 'the old way'
15:40<nat_as>or maybe just the artists for simutrans were bad
15:41<nat_as>with pixel art, a coherent style is important.
15:41<@Alberth>ie current artists never encountered the 2d way of doing things
15:41<nat_as>like when i see traced sprites that aren't even aligned to the isometric grid I want to vomit.
15:42<nat_as>a lot of the landmarks in simutrans are like that.
15:42<@Alberth>just like people here refuse to believe that 3d engines or multi-core cpus fail badly at openttd
15:43<@Alberth>yeah, and that is relatively easy to fix even
15:45<@Alberth>(21:46:34) nat_as: like when i see traced sprites that aren't even aligned to the isometric grid <-- that is easy to fix
15:45<nat_as>just rotate the model and trace it aggain
15:46<nat_as>lazy bastards!
15:46<Dozzer_X>Is there any way to get the 32pp graphics installed?
15:47<nat_as>actualy I think the simutrans landmarks are actual traced aerial photographs of real castles
15:47<@Alberth>I am sure there is, but no idea what it is :(
15:47<nat_as>and as such might be impossible to align correctly.
15:47<nat_as>because of FOV shenanigans.
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15:47<@Alberth>nat_as: imho they should then fix the traces imho, reality is less important than looking good in-game
15:48<@Alberth>but opinions differ :)
15:49<nat_as>is there any way to make engines bigger than .5 tiles without articulating them>
15:49<nat_as>or is that a hard limitation of the system?
15:49<frosch123>did you see cets?
15:49<Dozzer_X><@Alberth> I am sure there is, but no idea what it is :(
15:50<nat_as>I'm talking about the Centennials of corse
15:50<nat_as>which are the same size as all other engines
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15:51<nat_as>I know multi car engines exist, and newgrifs have cars less than .5 tiles long
15:51<nat_as>(which is more trouble than it's worth honestly, having a train 4.9 squares long is silly)
15:51<frosch123>it's a pretty hard limitation
15:51<@Alberth>what is it with the 32bpp forum, a zillion stickies, but none about installing it
15:52<frosch123>Alberth: it's the only forum where i do not miss stickies
15:52<nat_as>so you can make a big boy as a .5 long engine and a .5 long tender. but you can't make a centenial that takes up a whole tile
15:52<@Alberth>Dozzer_X: the question pops up every week or so in the 3bpp forum, a search is likely to give you the answer
15:52<nat_as>it would be strange to see it turn corners anyways.
15:53<V453000>I think some train sets have for example 12/8 vehicles
15:53<nat_as>I wonder if it could be worked around by making a spirte that hovers between two cars.
15:53<V453000>though I have no clue how to make them either (would be a valuable info) ... does shorten_to_12_8 do the tricks?
15:54<@Yexo>V453000: it's not that easy
15:54<nat_as>like the front and back bogies of the centenial would be it's actual cars, but it the engine sprite itself would be hovering beween them.
15:54*nat_as has no idea how the engine works
15:54<@Yexo>the .5 tile limit is a hard limit. You can make engines appear longer by giving them a slightly bigger sprite and adding an articulated part with an invisible sprite
15:54<@Yexo>to make it look decent even in corners and on slopes more magic is needed
15:55<V453000>oh, so a single engine/part of articulated vehicle cant be longer than 8/8?
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15:55<nat_as>that whs what I sugested anyways :V
15:55<V453000>shame :(
15:55<frosch123>V453000: a vehicle can only be on one tile, never on two
15:55<nat_as>most of the time they just make the engine and tender two separate cars.
15:55<nat_as>which is GREAT for steam engines.
15:55<V453000>8/8 still is a halftile isnt it frosch :)
15:55<frosch123>it's a whole tile on diagonal tracks
15:56<V453000>ah true
15:56<nat_as>but not so much for the centennial.
15:56<V453000>hm that sucks, wanted 12/8 steamer with 4/8 tender ... guess I will have to cut the steamer :D
15:57<nat_as>there's no way to make a sprite hover between two cars sadly is there.
15:57<nat_as>because using the invisible car work around, the sprite would Shove off the track when going around turns.
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15:58<frosch123>nat_as: take a look at cets
15:58<nat_as>what is cets?
15:58<frosch123>central european trainset
15:58<V453000>a train set
15:59<andythenorth>nat_as: AV8 has a C130 that I think can land at small airports
15:59<V453000>cets just provides larger sprites?
15:59<V453000>guess not eh then they would overlap
15:59<nat_as>can't find it in the list
15:59<V453000>it is in development you can find it on the devzone
16:00<andythenorth>one step left to solve BANDIT: have the makefile call my python script :D
16:02<nat_as>Skorski skycranes
16:02<nat_as>I AM IN HEAVEN
16:03<Dozzer_X>I was seeing your discussion about SimuTrans
16:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what does the .in extension represent in CETS lang?
16:03<Dozzer_X>But I don't have any idea at all on how to stop the sound
16:03<Dozzer_X>help? :D
16:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: 1st line python: #!/usr/bin/env python
16:03<@Alberth>make it executable ( chmod u+x )
16:03<@Alberth>Makefile: ./
16:05<@Alberth>Dozzer_X: we discuss lots of things we have no clue about :p
16:05<andythenorth>Alberth: done the shebang and chmod
16:05<andythenorth>just got to figure out the makefile
16:06<Dozzer_X>SimuTrans sucks hard
16:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: as in "what does its contents mean"?
16:06<@Alberth>Dozzer_X: that's why we do openttd :p
16:06<andythenorth>Alberth where to add the call to my python script
16:07<Dozzer_X>Are there any packs for 32 bit graphic in game?
16:07<Dozzer_X>Wanna test it :D
16:08<@Alberth>but they are mostly not finished, so don't expect too much of them
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16:17<Dozzer_X>Where is openttd.cfg?
16:17<Dozzer_X>Can't find it in my folders
16:18<@Yexo>you probably looked in the wrong place, see readme.txt for information on the correct ones
16:18<nat_as>putting rubber and copper ore on the same train is a bad idea right?
16:19<nat_as>because the copper will slow down the rubber?
16:23<@Alberth>with farms I sometimes have wheat and livestock together, and do a "full load any cargo"
16:24<@Alberth>works quite well
16:24<nat_as>well that makes sense
16:24<nat_as>but copper and rubber are diffrent
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16:35<plhalaser>hi, sorry im back and very sad, ive try mingw, and do the same with lzma, in readme i found ''Note that the MinGW distribution includes liblzma.'' can someone help me? dow to do step by step? best like for noob
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16:42<nat_as>the AV8 pack has the same problem as the basic airplanes
16:42<nat_as>so many, it's hard to chose which one
16:43<Prof_Frink>nat_as: It's easy. Highest capacity.
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16:44<nat_as>would be nice if you could hide airplanes with a stat below X amount
16:45<nat_as>so you could find highest capacity below a specific operating price
16:45<nat_as>or above a speed
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16:45<andythenorth>CETS fails to build for me
16:45<andythenorth>no module ply.lex
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16:47<andythenorth>Alberth: now I've set the shebang, my paths fail
16:47<andythenorth>how do I tell python a path relative to script location?
16:48*andythenorth googles
16:48<@Alberth>install ply at a point where python looks for libraries
16:49<andythenorth>two unrelated issues :)
16:49<@Alberth>doing things relative to a script location is bound to give trouble when you move the script
16:51<nat_as>man airports are AWESOME with cargodest
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16:55<nat_as>is there a setting to allow trucks and busses to make U turns?
16:57<@Alberth>andythenorth: so how does it fail ?
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17:00*andythenorth adventures with os.path
17:00<andythenorth>maybe I just have to move my script location
17:00<andythenorth>I can't figure out how to set a path relative to a parent directory
17:01<@Alberth>it's not recommended practice
17:01<@Alberth>what path is it?
17:01<andythenorth>abs or rel?
17:02<andythenorth>my script is in [reporoot]/scripts
17:02<andythenorth>I need to write to a file in [reporoot]/lang
17:02-!-Dozzer_X [~Dozzer@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02<@Alberth>make is running in [reporoot] ?
17:03<@Alberth>normally you give the path as command-line argument to the script
17:03<@Alberth>ie script/foo lang/bar
17:04<andythenorth>make is running in [reporoot]
17:04<andythenorth>do I have to handle the args in python?
17:04*Alberth nods
17:05<@Alberth>import sys; assert len(sys.argv) == 2; print sys.argv[1] is about the simplest way to do it
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17:07<@Alberth>for extra niceness, you can replace the assert with a 'if .. != 2: sys.stderr.write("Unexpected number of arguments\n"); sys.exit(1) ' or so
17:08<andythenorth>I might have to do this another day
17:08<andythenorth>my brain is kerplunk
17:08<@Alberth>and otherwise you do this
17:08-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:08<@Alberth>or 'optparse' for earlier pythons
17:08<andythenorth>so os.path is not the solution here?
17:09<@Alberth>os.path is for manipulating given paths, not for inventing them :)
17:09<Zuu>Alberth: Nice highlight of the Tutorial there :-)
17:09<Zuu>I hope it is roubust enough to not scare people :-)
17:10<@Alberth>Zuu: thanks for making it (I still need to have a look, hopefully I have some time tomorrow)
17:11<andythenorth>if I remove the shebang my paths don't fail :P
17:11<Zuu>I found out that if you have an AI active, it can end up telling you to click on the AI station at one place. This is fixed in hg but not released.
17:12<andythenorth>oh ffs
17:12<andythenorth>it's wonderful when OS X secretly appends .txt to a file
17:12<andythenorth>it's always such a good use of my life
17:12<Zuu>Can't that be turned off?
17:13-!-Guest112 [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:28de:894c:9cd:fa1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:13<andythenorth>probably somewhere
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17:14<andythenorth>Alberth: no path magic needed :P
17:14<andythenorth>it can't find a file name if it is expecting to open :/
17:16<andythenorth>but the python works now \o/
17:16<andythenorth>so I need a makefile.local?
17:16<andythenorth>to call it?
17:16<@Alberth>you just gotta love those OSes that don't take your file extensions seriously :p
17:17<@Rubidium>Alberth: the real unixy OSes that don't really care about extensions at all?
17:18<SpComb>file extensions?
17:18<Prof_Frink>We much prefer magic.
17:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: I don't know, I also get very much lost with the number of Makefiles that newgrf projects have
17:18<@Alberth>Rubidium: exactly, they consider what I say as the truth
17:19<@Alberth>(unfortunately, even when I am wrong :p )
17:19<andythenorth>my filename was truthful
17:19<andythenorth>the OS had just helpfully appended .txt, then hidden it in the file browser gui
17:19<xiong>nat_as, Road vehicles normally make U turns if that's the quickest way for them to get where they are ordered. However they won't make a U turn in the middle of the road. If you know where you think a good U turn can be made, construct a short road section to the side, a T junction. It need not even extend into the next tile.
17:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: where / how do I call a script from the makefile? :)
17:20<@Alberth>Zuu: nor has I yet spent <--- s/has/have/
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17:21<Zuu>Alberth: You get the point ;-)
17:21<Zuu>But thanks :-)
17:21<xiong>nat_as, Ah, also note that you can force any vehicle to reverse by clicking the appropriate button in the GUI.
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17:23<nat_as>i mean automaticly
17:23<nat_as>cars go all over the place trying to turn around
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17:23<nat_as>why can't they just do a u turn
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17:26<nplus>Is there any way to make hills longer/more gradual so they impact train speed less?
17:27<frosch123>there is an advanced setting for that
17:27<frosch123>you can reduce the slope to 0% making the game completely pointless
17:27<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what does the .in extension represent in CETS lang? <-- just something random... i thought like "input" or so
17:27<andythenorth>I've stolen it :P
17:28<frosch123>SmatZ: imo the game is about building a nice network considering the terrain an its restrictions
17:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I looked at CETS to understand how to call my .py script, but it's...complex :)
17:28<frosch123>reducing the slope to 0% removes hills from the game :p
17:28<nplus>i know about the setting, but I'm wondering if there was a ramp or a longer/less inclined hill - I'm not looking for a way to make the game easier
17:29<@SmatZ>frosch123: ok :) it depends on player's taste though :)
17:29<@SmatZ>you can still build huge railway networks on a flat terrain
17:29<frosch123>SmatZ: i know that coop builds maglev going up 6 slopes in a row, but imo that is bad :p
17:29<@SmatZ>hehe :)
17:30<@SmatZ>any slowdown causes jams
17:30<@Terkhen>good night
17:30<@SmatZ>good night Terkhen
17:31<andythenorth>if I simply add this to the makefile: include scripts/
17:31<andythenorth>I get: scripts/ *** missing separator. Stop.
17:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: start the line with a TAB, not with spaces
17:31<nplus>My thoughts are.. instead of 1 tile going up 1 level, make 2 tiles go up 1 level - increasing speed
17:32<andythenorth>Alberth: in the python? Or the makefile?
17:32<@Alberth>nplus: I have long pieces of level track between hills
17:33<andythenorth>TAB makes no difference
17:33<andythenorth>the other includes are not spaced
17:33<andythenorth>or tabbed
17:34<@Alberth>hmm, line 6 at the python script looks wrong then?
17:34<andythenorth>makefile (script is l11)
17:34<andythenorth>I'll check the python
17:35<nat_as>why are there not two way path signals?
17:35<@Alberth>andythenorth: include???
17:35*andythenorth is guessing
17:35<andythenorth>I have no idea how this works
17:36<@Alberth>include is for including other makefiles :p
17:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you need to call it in a rule to the file it creates
17:36<@Alberth>what file does it use, and what does it produce?
17:36<andythenorth>input: paste_here.txt
17:37<andythenorth>input: lang/
17:37<andythenorth>output: lang/english.lng
17:37<@planetmaker>see for example cets or firs
17:37<andythenorth>output: sprites/nml/trucks.pnml
17:37<@planetmaker>cets does what you want with lang files
17:37<@planetmaker>lang/ --> lang/english.lng
17:38<@planetmaker>it's described in scripts/
17:38<andythenorth>I kind of see
17:39<andythenorth>I have a CETS checkout
17:39<andythenorth>which doesn't build, but nvm
17:39<@planetmaker>but bedtime for me
17:39<@planetmaker>good night
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with the build?
17:39<andythenorth>can't find ply.lex
17:39<@Alberth>nat_as: what is called "Path Signal" can be used in two directions
17:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: probably an issue local to me
17:40<@Alberth>good night planetmaker
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>oh, then your python install is missing the ply module
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, had this for ages... never even thought it wasn't part of default install
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>it's a neat little tool :)
17:43<@Alberth>many package managers have it as a package too :)
17:44<andythenorth>I have it
17:44<andythenorth>it's just not found
17:45<nat_as>trucks in depot don't have running costs right?
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17:46<andythenorth>how odd
17:46<andythenorth>my generator is now called by makefile
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17:48<andythenorth>so, I solved templating BANDIT with
17:49-!-bopher [] has joined #openttd
17:49<andythenorth>heavyweight web cms (overkill) -> copy & paste to file -> python processor -> CPP -> nml
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17:49<bopher>*** OpenTTD Crash Report ***
17:49<bopher>Crash at: Sat Jan 21 22:44:29 2012
17:49<bopher>In game date: 2410-02-09 (16)
17:49<bopher>Crash reason:
17:49<bopher> Exception: E1212012
17:49-!-bopher [] has quit [Excess Flood]
17:49<@Alberth>just a matter of time before CPP dies :p
17:50<frosch123>i bet he would have left anyway after pasting it
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the down route is a little excessively curved
17:51<@Alberth>yeah, isn't it nice? :) it just came out this way after much fiddling
17:51<andythenorth>Alberth: the CPP is really nice now
17:51<andythenorth>CPP for constants is nice
17:51<andythenorth>CPP variadic macros are bearable
17:52<andythenorth>CPP #ifdef is...meh but ok
17:52<@Alberth>yeah, and for collecting several files too
17:52<@Alberth>aka the stuff it is designed for :p
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>unless nml implements "modules", i don't see a sane way to drop CPP
17:52<SpComb>try C++ templates instead
17:52<andythenorth>me neither
17:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: CPP variadic macros are a half assed solution to identifiers though
17:53<andythenorth>the nfo solution of repeating IDs locally was significantly better
17:53<andythenorth>it's the one and only place nfo wins for me so far
17:53<andythenorth>but it wins hard
17:53<andythenorth>this was what, 2 weeks to figure out a simple templating problem?
17:53<andythenorth>local to each item
17:54<andythenorth>identifiers only global if explicitly declared as such, otherwise scoped to item
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: dunno, took me 10 minutes to research the variadic macros, and another 20 minutes to restructure the dummy engine to use them...
17:54-!-Pulec [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: took me two weeks to arrive approximately same place as you :P
17:55<nat_as>man, dilivering goods to houses is anoying
17:55<nat_as>there should just be a "Store" factory
17:55<nat_as>same with food.
17:55<andythenorth>I'm basically now running a python code generator, keeping quite a lot of CPP
17:55<nat_as>MAKE UP YOUR GOD DAMN MIND! do you want food and goods or not?
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: basically, within one day, CETS went from one engine to ~300 :)
17:56*Alberth is very afraid of how large BANDIT will become :)
17:57<andythenorth>one new truck = setting 20 properties in a web form
17:57<andythenorth>also graphics and crap :P
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, the graphics code is what needs the ply magic :)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>for CETS
17:58<andythenorth>nat_as: try FIRS, it has a food market, does what you suggest
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>nat_as: basically the city center usually accepts goods and the city outskirts accept food
17:59<andythenorth>I should set .gnml extension
17:59<andythenorth>and tell hg to ignore it
18:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how are you ignoring lang files?
18:00<frosch123>play toyland, small towns accepts sweets, bigger towns accept fizzy drinks
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's exactly the same conclusion i came to :)
18:00<andythenorth>just ignore .lng?
18:00<Eddi|zuHause># Ignore intermediate files created by the Makefile:
18:01<nat_as>my train stations are always on the outskirts
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>probably should change that to *.lng
18:01<nat_as>to avoid angering the authorities
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>and start with supporting translations
18:01<nat_as>I let them build around me instead of the other way around
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18:02<Eddi|zuHause>actually, the other languages probably don't need autogenerating
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>since the autogenerated strings are probably untranslatable
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>so the other .lng only need the "static" strings
18:03<andythenorth>generator is way easier than maintaining 10 bazillion files for inclusion
18:03<andythenorth>all that formatting and crap
18:03<andythenorth>I just caused the makefile to loop
18:03<@Alberth>also much more fun :)
18:03<@Alberth>good night
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18:04<andythenorth> fixed
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18:05<Eddi|zuHause>my generator currently writes one file for each engine, the file that includes all engine files, the file that sorts the purchase list, and the lang file. plus two files which handle some magical parameter defines
18:05<nat_as>is there a way to make years advance slower?
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>nat_as: the pause button
18:05<nat_as>I like playing in fast mode because I am impatent and don't want to wait for money
18:05<nat_as>but i don't want it to be 2057 so quickly
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>nat_as: there's a bunch of "daylength" patches, but they're all somewhat incomplete
18:07<nat_as>are they compatible with cargodest?
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>don't say cargodest if you're playing cargodist
18:07<nat_as>what is the diffrence?
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>the e is an i
18:08<nat_as>i am using the one that gives cargo destinations
18:08<nat_as>not one that affects distance
18:08<nat_as>unless I am wrong
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18:08<Eddi|zuHause>dist stands for distribution
18:08<nat_as>oh you are right, sorry
18:08*andythenorth declares bed
18:08<andythenorth>good night
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18:09*andythenorth remembered something
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>this is not the bed.
18:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how are you handling vehicle IDs (wrt savegame breakage etc)?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a column in the tracking table, to make them fixed
18:10<andythenorth>I'm thinking the same
18:10<andythenorth>gets messy if I change the number of trailers per vehicle
18:10<andythenorth>I'll figure it out I guess
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>they don't have to be in any kind of order
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>just be unique, and constant
18:11<andythenorth>plenty to choose from
18:11<andythenorth>is the limit 65k?
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>64k for heads, 16k for trailers
18:11<nat_as>what is "other" expenses?"
18:11<nat_as>is that trees I planted?
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>nat_as: bribing, advertising, ...
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18:12<andythenorth>I could give each lead truck a block of 100 IDs still have enough spare below 16k :P
18:12<nat_as>I don't do that
18:12<nat_as>but I DID just put a bunch of trees
18:12<andythenorth>although blocks of 10 would be plenty too
18:12<nat_as>so I guess that counts as a bribe :V
18:12<andythenorth>but now sleep time
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>nat_as: there's also a fixed fee that gets deduced every month
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18:14<nat_as>I am at this point where my profits and expensies are both really really high
18:14<nat_as>so I go in the hole for months at a time before my profits drag me otu
18:15<nat_as>even though I am earning more money than I lose
18:15<nat_as>it sucks waiting though
18:15<nat_as>I have shit to build now!
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>need to make your network more efficient
18:16<nat_as>that would be prohibitively expensive.
18:16<nat_as>although I think some of my trains can be trimmed
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>costs grow faster than income
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>so you need to constantly improve your network
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18:18<nat_as>replacing my frieght engines will be hard
18:18<nat_as>new ones cost almost 200,000
18:18<nat_as>and wont last as long!
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18:21<nat_as>hmm, passengers don't seem to make two way trips, even in cargodist.
18:21<nat_as>they all go to this one town at the end of the line
18:21<nat_as>and never come back!
18:21<nat_as>train comes back empty every time.
18:22<nat_as>that's both disturbing and ineficant.
18:25<nat_as>can't get my rubber train to make any money
18:25<nat_as>what gives.
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18:28<frosch123>maybe that town is big into selling cars
18:34<xiong>nat_as, Are you playing with cargodist or cargodest?
18:34<nat_as>what is the diffrence between the two, other than the name
18:37<xiong>Good question. I'm playing cargodist.
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19:42<nat_as>instead of a magic bulldozer cheat, there should be a SHUT UP TOWN cheat
19:43<nat_as>wont let you bulldoze anything, but WILL make towns stop bitching about there damn trees
19:43<__ln__>*won't, *their
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20:05<nat_as>how do I stop road veichiles from driving in circles
20:05<nat_as>if they just went straight they would get where they are going
20:05<nat_as>but they seem incapible of not making a turn when they have the opertunity
20:05<__ln__>*incapable, *opportunity
20:10<flaa>*dick, *boobs, *licquor
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20:47<Eddi|zuHause>nat_as: usually means your road is blocked somewhere
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21:36<nat_as>it's not cheating to use the add money tool to constantly bribe the local authority
21:36<nat_as>the game practicaly forces you to do it.
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21:41<DDR>That one actually never occurred to me. :P
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>i never bribed a town
21:44<DDR>I'll do it occasionally, late-game.
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>when you have >20 stations in a town, it hardly matters
21:45<nat_as>how do you GET 20 stations in a town withot bribing somebody
21:45<nat_as>then aggain, I play on hilly maps with tons of trees
21:45<nat_as>and nothing pisses them off more than cutting trees
21:46<DDR>Worst-case scenario.
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>you can build road stops, you know
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>when you start in a town, build 2-5 road stops (depending on size). build trams or busses, then build the train station
21:47<DDR>Long story short, nat_as, good performance at one station makes the town happy. Even if you have to start with one station, it's not too hard to build more.
21:48<DDR>Hm... I like making large connected stations. One train-station, ctrl-connected to scattered bus and lorry stations.
21:48<Eddi|zuHause>and after you built the train station, you can happily destroy as many trees as you want
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21:49<Eddi|zuHause>the busses/trams will keep the rating up, and the trains bring in the real money
21:54<nat_as>that still wont let me distroy and rebuild there nonsensical roads.
21:54<nat_as>OR sometimes i have to do teraforming to even get a station connected
21:59<nat_as>airplanes seem to be the best idea ever with cargo dist.
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how people get to that conclusion... i find aircraft horribly inefficent
22:01<DDR>nat_as: Hold 'ctrl' while placing a station.
22:10<Mazur>Is there a way to change a village into a town in Sub-Tropical, so that one can fund a water tower there?
22:11<Mazur>Because there seems to be a catch 22: for growth, water is required, but for a water tower town status is required.
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>what's a "village"?
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22:18<Mazur>A town that is not a town yet?
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>in what game?
22:19<Eddi|zuHause>you realize that a water tower must be placed on top of a house, right?
22:19<Mazur>No, I did not.
22:19<Mazur>Lets try that.
22:21<Mazur>Thank you.
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 22 00:01:05 2012