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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-29

---Logopened Sun Apr 29 00:00:50 2012
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00:43<adamkex>is there a limit on how much an oil refinery can produce?
00:46<adamkex>because mine is producing 350,000 which is a very round number
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02:00<adamkex>sorry 350 not 350,000
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02:27<@Alberth>Gooooooooooood mornng #openttd!
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02:37<telanus>Morning Alberth
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02:47<@Alberth>moin andy
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02:59<andythenorth>some industries shouldn't be available after certain dates
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02:59<andythenorth>that used to be the case :)
03:01<andythenorth>Alberth: so if an industry closed, does that increase the chance for a new industry type to be built?
03:03<@Alberth>currently, the number of opened industries is more or less constant (it slowly increases in time), so if an industry closes, there is room to build a new one. That is currently a weighted chance (most lacking have a bigger chance).
03:04<@Alberth>I am not entirely sure that the latter is a good choice, perhaps the chance should be spread more evenly
03:05<andythenorth>I can use the extended results here to try and force build
03:07<@Alberth>Some weeks ago I played and I got factories, but no maize / fruit thingies. I have not investigated why exactly.
03:09<@Alberth>nice, dynamic probabilities!
03:09<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps the fruit thingie needs water?
03:10<andythenorth>not afaik
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03:10<andythenorth>might need 'not desert' though
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03:12<@Alberth>fruit needs grassy stuff, maize is not listed as such at the wiki
03:13<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps also look into industry chains in the decision what to build :p
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03:20<andythenorth>Alberth: analyse broken chains?
03:21*Alberth nods
03:21<andythenorth>did you know that cb 14B and 14C break the industry chains gui?
03:21<@Alberth>there is no use to build many factories if you don't have fruit / maize thingies
03:22<@Alberth>oh, more ways to break it :)
03:22<@Alberth>I thought tile acceptance was the only way :)
03:22<andythenorth>they've been around a while, but I don't know if they were used until FIRS Recycling Depot
03:23<@Alberth>The problem is that the industry chain gui assumes an industry-type implies consistent input/output cargoes
03:23<@Alberth>otherwise you have to drop down to individual industries, which makes the entire gui useless
03:24<@Alberth>ie you'd have to display the links at a map or so
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03:27<andythenorth>new prop?
03:27<andythenorth>'types this industry might accept / produce' ?
03:28<andythenorth>or some kind of table, when an industry is constructed, it writes it's actual types to the table?
03:28<andythenorth>it's / its /s
03:28<@Alberth>you could duplicate industry types for each combination of input/output cargoes
03:28<andythenorth>multiple IDs?
03:29<@Alberth>oh, I don't know. I was thinking GUI only
03:32<andythenorth>I don't like the idea of duplicating the actual industries ;)
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04:09*andythenorth thinks industry types should close when outdated
04:10<@Alberth>just like in RL :)
04:11<NGC3982>im watching this documentary
04:11<NGC3982>they are trying to move a 70 year old plow engine up a mountain
04:11<NGC3982>without it running, that is
04:11<NGC3982>some job..
04:12<NGC3982>£30.000 to move the 100T engine four kilometers.
04:14<@Alberth>so what teaches you that about the world?
04:15<NGC3982>not more then that hydraulics is a nice invention.
04:15<andythenorth>plow engine?
04:16<NGC3982>lets see if i can figure out the model
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04:16<NGC3982>its a southern padicif rotary snow plow, at least.
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04:18<andythenorth>why is it going up a mountain?
04:18<NGC3982>there seems to be some kind of museum
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04:20<andythenorth>docks on river banks?
04:22<@Terkhen>good morning
04:22<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
04:22<andythenorth>apologies about the spanish translation :)
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04:37<adamkex>is it possible to make the camera follow a train?
04:38<andythenorth>ctrl-click on the eye icon
04:39<andythenorth>in the vehicle window
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04:42<@Terkhen>no problem
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04:52<andythenorth>we need to fix the bridge spec
04:52<andythenorth>my toddler is obsessed with building bridges in game
04:53<andythenorth>his requests include:
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04:53<andythenorth>- bridges up and down hills
04:53<andythenorth>- more bridges
04:53<Warod>- even more bridges
04:53<andythenorth>that is all
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04:59<andythenorth>all the code I need is already in FIRS, ready to use
04:59<andythenorth>just defines needed setting :)
05:10<andythenorth>Terkhen: I found a ticket wrt layouts ;)
05:24<@Terkhen>andythenorth: yes, IIRC we decided on a new templating format
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05:27<planetmaker>the old template iirc was not groundaware. Thus these new ones were devised
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05:40<andythenorth>can we migrate old ones?
05:46<@Terkhen>that's a lot of work :P
05:48<planetmaker>we can. But not for 'no reason'. For the reason Terkhen said
05:49<planetmaker>After all: if it works, it works. Never touch a running system
05:49<andythenorth>it's much harder to add snow sprites, ground detail and animation if there are two methods ;)
05:49*Alberth refrains from touching the advanced settings :p
05:50<andythenorth>can we refactor as necessary?
05:50<@Alberth>or perhaps not :)
05:50<andythenorth>and not otherwise?
05:50<planetmaker>andythenorth: Adding snow sprites, ground detail, ... should all be done by the new method.
05:50<planetmaker>That's what it's for
05:50<andythenorth>and maybe change the ticket that says 'existing uses of it should be converted to the new format' :D
05:51<planetmaker>The old method should stay as long as those are not added, though
05:51<planetmaker>well. Not should but could
05:52<planetmaker>But changing that is a lot of work without any visual or gameplay difference
05:52<andythenorth>all I need is (1) to know which layout to use (2) to learn how to migrate old to new
05:52<andythenorth> (3) to close that ticket :P
05:52<planetmaker>Basically the two templates are in different files, so the name should give away which is used
05:53<planetmaker>The new contains "groundaware"
05:57*andythenorth is trying to the bug-closing and refactoring finished, at least for open tickets ;)
05:57<andythenorth>+ get
05:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: we need a solution to this
05:59<andythenorth>hmm, default forest has no good indicator either :|
06:01<andythenorth>the problem is much worse with opengfx for some reason
06:01<andythenorth>forest is very hard to see
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06:05<andythenorth>every time I test something with OpenGFX, I get an itch to fix it
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i have a "feture request": at the bottom of a ticket there are these "Edit", "Copy", etc. links. can it be changed so inbetween these links are regular spaces instead of non-breaking spaces?
06:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you'd need to patch redmine?
06:06<andythenorth>opengfx landscape, water very nice
06:06<andythenorth>trees, too realistic for me, but nice
06:06<andythenorth>buildings....could try harder ;)
06:11<planetmaker>andythenorth: then DO fix it ;-)
06:11<andythenorth>I started :P
06:11<andythenorth>one house
06:11<planetmaker>though I actually like the OpenGFX trees much more
06:11<andythenorth>I can see why
06:11<planetmaker>yes, they're partially my work :-P
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06:12<drac_boy>how're you?
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>@calc arcsin(pi/6)
06:13<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'arcsin' is not a defined function.
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>@calc asin(pi/6)
06:13<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.551069583099
06:13<andythenorth>so the FIRS forest with opengfx - not pine trees?
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sin(pi/6)
06:13<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.5
06:13<andythenorth>[in temperate at least]
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 6*cos(pi/6)
06:14<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5.19615242271
06:14<planetmaker>yes, the tropical ones are not really done to my satisfaction yet
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06:18<drac_boy>andythenorth just asking but do you think other climates than tropical should be able to have bushes too? I can't recall ever seeing any in temperate
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>that is only a matter of graphics, isn't it?
06:21<Eddi|zuHause> <-- debian having fun with random numbers again
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i understand it, they use a timestamp with predictably large granularity and seed a 48-bit RNG with a 32-bit value
06:22<drac_boy>eddi you're right..I was just wondering if more than tropical should be able to have bushes already :)
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if you draw it, they will :)
06:25<drac_boy>heh not sure about my scale being used by others but we'll see about that tho :)
06:31<andythenorth>tropical has cacti?
06:33<planetmaker>uhm, forest?
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, sentence?
06:36<andythenorth>I should find a way to prevent English GB in Tropical for FIRS
06:36<andythenorth>it's plain weird
06:45<drac_boy>guess I'll probably find out later then
06:54*drac_boy at least made a bit more progress on the grf table .. not so much in way of sprites yet
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07:08<andythenorth>FIRS 0.7.5 is nearly ready :P
07:08<andythenorth>maybe I should add more tickets
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07:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: are you planning to include more changes to strings?
07:18<andythenorth>not sure
07:19<andythenorth>I might try and do something about industry closure texts
07:19<andythenorth>and parameters might change
07:19<andythenorth>if I have time
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07:23<@Terkhen>I'll finish everything today, if you change something else please drop me a line
07:23<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
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07:23<frosch123>hello terkhen :)
07:24<drac_boy>hi frosch123
07:24<andythenorth>quak quak
07:24<frosch123>moin moin
07:25<frosch123>good afternoon drac_boy :)
07:26<drac_boy>frosch123 wrong time zone words btw :p
07:26<drac_boy>its only 7:27
07:27<frosch123>what are you doing here so early then?
07:27<drac_boy>dunno, just wanted see if there were anything interesting going on and apparently there was :)
07:27<frosch123>(likely inappropiate queston)
07:27<drac_boy>heh nah its ok... just for the record I usually sleep 9-11pm to 6-7am most days
07:28<xahodo>Hello, how does openttd deal with newgrfs internally? Do they just get interpreted again and again or do they get... sort of... compiled?
07:28<drac_boy>frosch123 sometimes something in here sorta gives me an idea of what to look for in my ongoing grf work as well. you know? :)
07:30<frosch123>xahodo: half of newgrfs is only processed when loading, the rest is a decision tree which is stored - well - as a tree
07:30<xahodo>so, that makes it sort of compiled?
07:30<frosch123>so, ottd reads the grf only once, but i would not call that compiling
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07:31<cypher>IcE-M : tak jsem přišel jakože na poradu a nikde nikdo, jo?
07:31<@Alberth>hi frosch123
07:31<cypher>crap, wrong channel :(
07:31<frosch123>compiling sounds like bytecode, but that term imo makes only sense for imperative languages, which newgrfs aren't
07:31<drac_boy>heh cypher this is english for most part ;)
07:32<cypher>drac_boy : and who's fault is that? Huh?
07:32<drac_boy>no idea...who first wrote the channel topic probably could tell you
07:32*Alberth blames the /topic :)
07:32<frosch123>we should have a czech day somewhen :)
07:32<drac_boy>Alberth like I said :p
07:32<drac_boy>frosch123 if you're going to do that then don't forget french, german, and japan other days :P
07:32<drac_boy>especially considering they're related to grfs .. such as dbsetxl
07:33<frosch123>french and japan also works
07:33<drac_boy>heh heh
07:33<xahodo>frosch123: thanks for the answer.
07:33<frosch123>but i would understand german, so it would not be as quiet for me
07:36<cypher>Let's make an esperanto day. It'd be fun to see all the people not being able to talk to each other.
07:36<frosch123>we have 93.3% of an esperanto translation
07:36<frosch123>so we could c&p parts of it
07:37<cypher>Or we could hook Google Translate to the IRC server and automatically translate everything to Esperanto.
07:43<frosch123>automatik translations only work to translator foreign languages into your own, not the other way around
07:44<frosch123>because then you can check the translation and see whether it makes sense and check individual sentences in detail if they make no sense
07:44<frosch123>however, if you translate your language into some other, you cannot tell whether it is total rubbish
07:45<frosch123>so, automatic translations only work if the receiver of the message uses them
07:45<__ln__>you can check if sentences make sense in your own language, but without knowing the source language you don't know if the meaning is retained
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07:47<cypher>frosch123 : I don't really care wether it's total rubbish, because no one here (i believe) would understand esperanto anyway.
07:47<cypher>And if someone does, I don't really want to talk to that kind of person :D
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07:49<@Terkhen>the esperanto translation of OpenTTD is outdated by just a year or so; I suppose that we have or had players that can understand esperanto
07:49<andythenorth>frosch123: so wrt terraforming, for large flat industries, I could check for all tiles being same height level, but allow any land shape under them
07:50<andythenorth>it has some problems when I don't want to show foundations at the edge
07:50<andythenorth>I might try it as I assume it can be done in newgrf already
07:51<andythenorth>might turn out I have to write an insane number of varact 2s though, specific to each layout
07:51<@Alberth>Terkhen: they also have to use the esperantoe language :)
07:52<@Terkhen>why? :P
07:54<xahodo>Is Klingon translation a good idea?
07:55<@Terkhen>if you are bored enough and making such translation entertains you, then yes
07:55<@Terkhen>I doubt that it would get much use, though
07:56<drac_boy>actually I do have a bit better idea
07:56<drac_boy>take the english translation and change it to reflect gungan grammars? :)
07:57<drac_boy>(and yes that is from starwars)
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>we used to have a piglatin translation
08:00<__ln__>drac_boy: yousa knowsa, george lucas would sue wesa
08:00<andythenorth>if each tile checks 8 surrounding tiles for same height level....
08:01<andythenorth>all industry tiles would be level, and no foundations would show
08:02<drac_boy>__ln__ heh
08:04<andythenorth>alternatively, set an additional flag: shape check used, but terraform anyway.
08:04<andythenorth>allowing game to flatten ground for industry
08:07<drac_boy>sorta somewhat on-topic but any of you think the Razer mouses are decent for both desktop and light game useages? (latter also including patch/ottd too hm? ;) )
08:08<__ln__>english only: mice
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08:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that'll be so complicated that it's useless
08:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the 'allow terraform' ?
08:09<andythenorth>terraform is pretty useless anyway
08:09<drac_boy>so any comment or no __ln__?
08:12<__ln__>no idea, i've used mostly logitech mice since a long time.
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08:13<andythenorth>from wiki: It is sometimes more useful to know the height of the highest corner of the tile. This can be computed with "zz/8 + ((ss+15)/16)"
08:13<andythenorth>"Why this works, and how to adjust for the different value range, are left as exercises for the reader."
08:13<drac_boy>heh andythenorth
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you switch to grfv8, this can be simplified
08:13<andythenorth>FIRS is v8 afaik
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>in grfv8, heightlevels are not multiples of 8 anymore
08:14<andythenorth>I'm having a look what nml does with them :)
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>might put a warning about that into the wiki
08:15<andythenorth>so the height check is lowest corner, but industry tiles are drawn at height of highest corner
08:16<andythenorth>so I do need to check for highest point being equal on all tiles
08:17<andythenorth>hmm nearby_tile_height + 1?
08:17<andythenorth>probably not :P
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i believe you only need to substitute "zz/8" by "zz"
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that fails for flat tiles
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08:18<andythenorth>there's no short cut, I have to check the slope as well
08:18<Zuu>Hmm, so when stepping through ScriptCompany::SetLoanAmount, the parameter loan changes its value while there is no modifying statement nor a function that possible could take a reference to it and modify it.
08:18<Zuu>Yet, it changes value in the middle of the function, sometimes several times.
08:18<andythenorth>can probably be checked with one nml expression, but I haven't figured it out yet :P
08:19<Zuu>Is this some wierd compiler optimization?
08:19*drac_boy whacks __ln__ the grammar police
08:22<Zuu>Anyhow, ScriptCompany::SetLoanAmount appear to fail for no good reason.
08:25<andythenorth>I have to check 8 tiles have same height as current
08:25<andythenorth>and branch for flat or not flat
08:25*andythenorth is bamboozled
08:26<andythenorth>if any tile has different height, return CB_RESULT_LOCATION_DISALLOW
08:26*Zuu tries to compile a "release" build without optimization
08:28<andythenorth>so first I need to get height of current tile and put in register
08:29<andythenorth>then I need to go to each of 8 neighbouring tiles and subtract heights
08:29<andythenorth>if not 0, disallow build
08:29<andythenorth>and I need to check for slope or flat
08:29<andythenorth>and this has to be a CPP varadic macro
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08:35<andythenorth>if I figure this nml out, will someone turn it into cpp? :o
08:37*drac_boy isn't touching nml sorry
08:37<drac_boy>have fun with someone else :)
08:47<Zuu>Recompiling without optimization removed the wierd behaviour. And when calling the function in a scope where AITestMode is not actieve, it actually works as expected. :-)
08:47<Zuu>What would you call a function that takes a generic action function as argument and will take more loan if needed? My best idea so far is ExecuteWithLoan.
08:48<andythenorth>oh dear:
08:48<andythenorth>HEQS needs a revamp anyway. Maybe I declare FIRS 1.0 :P
08:50<andythenorth>so what do I need to do to check 'height + tile is flat' ?
08:50<andythenorth>ternary operator?
08:50<andythenorth>some other magic?
08:50<andythenorth>in python I would write:
08:51<andythenorth>result = tileheight + (1, 0)[tile_is_flat]
08:52<@Alberth>ternary operator, I think
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08:53<andythenorth>branching switches to do this seems....outdated thinking
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08:55<@Alberth>result = tileheight + 1 - tile_is_flat :)
08:56<andythenorth>flat is 0, and all other slopes set bits
08:56<andythenorth>so a bit operation might do it
08:57<andythenorth>what can I AND it with to get 0 or 1?
08:57<@Alberth>but that only tests the lowest bit
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08:58<@Alberth>so you need a != 0 somewhere
08:58<andythenorth>this would be trivial with 3 switches :P
08:59<andythenorth>trying to do it in nml expressions is like playing 1-line python
08:59<andythenorth>not sure it's a good game :(
08:59<@Alberth>at least not a fast one :)
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09:00<andythenorth>I have to do it in one switch, because I've no idea how to chain varadic macros in CPP
09:00<andythenorth>so I can't create identifiers
09:01<@Alberth>a 0 case and a default (!=0) case ?
09:01<andythenorth>maybe yes
09:01<andythenorth>the CPP is a limiting factor, even if I figure this out
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09:02*Alberth is silent
09:02<andythenorth>I need to reuse code, and CPP makes that hard :P
09:04<andythenorth>life is too short
09:04<andythenorth>play FIRS on flat maps, mountainous ones are too hard to support ;)
09:05<andythenorth>this would be trivial with python; rewriting FIRS in python would not be
09:05<andythenorth>it's a $1 solution to a $0.01 problem :P
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so what's wrong with just reusing "zz+(ss+15)/16" how it was written on the wiki?
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09:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: don't know how to wrap up it in CPP
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why would that need any specialized CPP skills?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's pure nml
09:12<andythenorth>needs to be used by every industry
09:12<andythenorth>which means a macro
09:12<andythenorth>and the macros can only have one switch
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but you still put plain nml into the macro
09:12<andythenorth>but I need 8 switches....
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>what for?
09:12<andythenorth>to check 8 neighbouring tiles....
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>but i already told you how to solve that
09:13<andythenorth>did I miss that?
09:13<andythenorth>in nfo I could have written advanced varact 2 all in one action to do this
09:14<andythenorth>maybe I can do that in nml
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>nml can do that, just put a formula into the field
09:14<andythenorth>might be a long formula :) let's see
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>and why check 8 tiles? don't 4 suffice?
09:15<andythenorth>if I do all 8, for free I get to prevent foundations showing
09:15<andythenorth>which matters for industries like quarry where foundations look silly :)
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09:17<Eddi|zuHause>but you only need to check the slope for that, not the height of the tiles
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09:17<andythenorth>one check seems easier though
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>and you need a way to prevent checking tiles outside the industry
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>or you require flat land around the industry, which is not really favourable
09:18<andythenorth> a 1 tile buffer of flat land is required around the industry
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's crazy
09:18<andythenorth>if it's higher than industry, graphics will be garbled
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>i reject this feature
09:18<andythenorth>no way around that
09:18<andythenorth>it's not a feature :P
09:19<andythenorth>it's an attempted fix of current broken-ness
09:19<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi the default 1.2.0 game setting also requires 1 tile of flat around industries :P
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09:19<ZxBiohazardZx>or what that what you where discussing:P
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: yes. and i rejected that feature as well
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: that's why it's configurable now
09:19*andythenorth thinks the 1 tile buffer might be overkill
09:19<andythenorth>the slope check would prevent the graphics being garbled
09:19<ZxBiohazardZx>Nat_aS around? or afk like yesterday
09:20<ZxBiohazardZx>why do they garble in the first place?
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09:20<andythenorth>yes, no 1 tile buffer needed *if* foundations are acceptable
09:21<andythenorth>not even that in fact
09:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r20659 /trunk/src (6 files in 4 dirs) (2010-08-28 18:37:49 UTC)
09:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Feature: make the (flat) area around an industry configurable (Eddi|zuHause)
09:21*andythenorth should stop waking up at 2am and 5.30am daily
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you need to make your kid older :)
09:21<andythenorth>I do that every day
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the quarry is already one of the most difficult to place industries in mountains
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: your change will make that even worse
09:22<andythenorth>difficult / effectively impossible
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>maybe make a sloped pikka-style quarry?
09:22<andythenorth>in my tests of mountainous maps, quarry and clay pit are more likely to not be built than built
09:23<andythenorth>it's easy to get a map with no pikka-style quarries either
09:23<andythenorth>it requires very specific slopes
09:23<andythenorth>I should make a sand/gravel mine and a clay mine
09:23<andythenorth>deep mines are easy to place :P
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes. they're not ECS-style :p
09:25<andythenorth>there is historical precedent for mining clay underground, and even sand / gravel apparently
09:26<andythenorth>I could take the processor building, and draw a tunnel entrance for various hillsides
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not convinced
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can make a "dry-quarry", and provide graphics for each slope shape
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>then you don't need pikka-style slope requirements at all
09:27<andythenorth>it requires an insane number of graphics
09:28<andythenorth>about 164 last time I calculated it
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>but it's the only sensible solution
09:28<andythenorth>get someone to render it?
09:29<andythenorth>if I could get this height check working, the number of locations would increase
09:29<andythenorth>probably not sufficiently
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>no, it would decrease
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>because the game can not flatten anymore
09:29<andythenorth>the game can't flatten anyway
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>why not?
09:30<andythenorth>the terraform check is useless for FIRS
09:30<andythenorth>shape check is used for ~all industries
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>you should disable it then
09:30<andythenorth>it's essential
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>what for?
09:30<andythenorth>- terrain type checks
09:30<andythenorth>- near town checks
09:30<andythenorth>(not used by every industry)
09:31<andythenorth>and check to prevent industries being built adjacent
09:31<andythenorth>(used by ~every industry)
09:31<andythenorth>^ last one is essential to prevent gridlocked maps
09:31<andythenorth>I spent a long time fixing that :P
09:32<andythenorth>I provided a patch for the game to do same, but it was decided that it should be done by shape check
09:32<andythenorth>so currently quarry requires *every* tile to be entirely flat
09:32<andythenorth>the height check would therefore be *less* restrictive ;)
09:32<andythenorth>unless I've misunderstood something, which is plausible tbh
09:34<andythenorth>for sake of experimentation, let's disable shape check on quarry
09:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so with shape check disabled, subjectively more quarries are built with following map settings:
09:38<andythenorth>- mountainous, very rough, high water
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09:38<andythenorth>with a 0 tile buffer, I always get at least one quarry, usually more
09:38<andythenorth>with a 1 tile buffer I always get 1 quarry, sometimes 2
09:39<andythenorth>with a >1 tile buffer, no quarries so far :P
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09:41<andythenorth>the 1 tile check for other adjacent industries also prevents some pathological cases where industries overlap (because layouts have gaps in)
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>but unless 2 quarries are placed next to each other, that won't matter, since the other industry will still use the check
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>at least if the other industry comes second
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09:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's worth leaving this out for this one industry
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>you'll still have problems with other large industries such as aluminium or cement plant
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>but those are secondary industries
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>so less of a problem
09:45<andythenorth>I am concluding same about shape check
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09:47<andythenorth>it's less painful than any of the alternatives
09:47<andythenorth>what's your objection to a mine entrance?
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't feel right
09:49<andythenorth>for sand and gravel it's all wrong :P
09:49<andythenorth>for clay it's reasonably valid
09:49<andythenorth>nobody goes sand mining
09:49<andythenorth>there are...problems with it
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>*horrible memories of minecraft sinking in*
09:52*andythenorth wonders
09:52<andythenorth>so there must be a reason industry var 62 is unsigned?
09:53<andythenorth>even though that makes it almost useless
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i see the code, it's treated as signed
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>like any other place
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>or i'm misreading
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10:00<Eddi|zuHause>no... indeed, there's a parameter
10:01<andythenorth>in theory I could run a convoluted set of checks from cb28 instead of cb2f
10:01<andythenorth>to find adjacent industries
10:02<andythenorth>but it would require offsets for every layout
10:02<andythenorth>and only if the offsets can be signed ;)
10:10<andythenorth>new industry tile property? bitmask of neighbouring tiles that must not have industry on at construction time
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10:11<Eddi|zuHause>you're overengineering this
10:11<andythenorth>you're saying take the simple route?
10:12<andythenorth>I don't disagree
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10:18<andythenorth>these are what the neighbouring industry tile check prevents :)
10:19<andythenorth>number 12 is my favourite :)
10:20<@Alberth>don't we have a 'keep border around industry' setting?
10:21<andythenorth>in the game?
10:21<frosch123>Alberth: we only discussed it 10 times in this channel
10:21<andythenorth>it was decided newgrf should take care of it
10:22<andythenorth>which it can very well
10:22<andythenorth>at expense of terraforming
10:22<@Alberth>luckily, I must have missed about 8 of them :)
10:26*andythenorth reads industry_cmd.cpp
10:26<andythenorth>I get why terraforming and shape check are mutually exclusive
10:27<andythenorth>but maybe it should be at newgrf author's own risk
10:27<andythenorth>let's see :)
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10:32*andythenorth predicts that even if he can unpick this, he will get a very flat map
10:37<andythenorth>so it appears to only terraform if it can't find a location?
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10:37<Zuu>Oh, Zuu the bot has been all over the forum now :-)
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>it terraforms if it has maximum one heightlevel up or down
10:41<andythenorth>it appears to just kind of work
10:42<andythenorth>although I don't use custom shape check for intended purpose in FIRS
10:43<andythenorth>apart from coasts, looking for specific slope combinations for industry tiles is foolhardy
10:45*NGC3982 makes his first grf.
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10:47<andythenorth>mountainous, very rought, 80% water still defeats FIRS, even with terraform :P
10:51<andythenorth>maybe if I could draw one massive sprite, placing quarries on hillsides would be easy
10:51<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... 2nd time in 2 days that synchronization was lost
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10:59<frosch123>Zuu: i hope you did not consider becoming "tycoon" a challenge :)
11:00<Zuu>frosch123: hehe, I'm already a "tycoon" so don't worry :-)
11:01<ZxBiohazardZx>Nat_aS sighted in teh meantime?
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11:07<@Alberth>yesterday he emerged from dr_tan :)
11:13<andythenorth>so from non-scientific testing (hit newgame a lot of times) this is the most common adjacent industry case
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11:13<andythenorth>I could declare it a non-problem
11:13<andythenorth>or use a conflicting industry check between them
11:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: opinion?
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11:14<andythenorth>removing the shape check gets these industries built on steep maps; adding a conflicting industry check would degrade that
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say live with it
11:15<andythenorth>there are other cases, which irritate me
11:15<andythenorth>but not as much as having no quarries
11:16<andythenorth>I'm still considering a smaller layout though :P
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11:21<andythenorth>water pit looks silly if small :P
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>can vary the length by like 2 tiles
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11:23<andythenorth>bizarrely it almost matches up if I do that
11:23<andythenorth>george has done it for these sprites in ECS
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11:46*andythenorth commits the terraforming change
11:46<andythenorth>lesser of two evils
11:46*andythenorth is not a big fan of compomise
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11:47<andythenorth>compromise is just as bad as over-engineering
11:47<andythenorth>but cheaper in the short-term :P
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13:30<Nat_aS>>Looking at list of newgrfs
13:30-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
13:31<@Alberth>ZxBiohazardZx: he's here!
13:31<@Alberth>Nat_aS: ^ is looking for you :)
13:31<Nat_aS>>Replaces passenger production in oil rigs by eels which are accepted by fars in temperate climate and food processing plants in arctic and trpical climates, eels are transportable by hovercraft
13:31<Nat_aS>ZxBiohazardZx yes?
13:31*Nat_aS is always here
13:32<@Alberth>(17:08:31) ZxBiohazardZx: Nat_aS sighted in teh meantime? <-- you missed this one 2.5 hours ago then :)
13:32<Nat_aS>except when sleeping
13:36<Nat_aS>can you have more than one town name grf loaded at a time?
13:38<@Alberth>loaded should be possible, working is another matter :p
13:38<Nat_aS>so no mixed town naming schemes?
13:39<@Alberth>not by loading town grfs, I think
13:39<@Alberth>but you can make a new town newgrf, they are very simple
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13:40<Nat_aS>just a list of text strings?
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13:40<@Alberth>that's the simplest form, you can compose a new from several parts
13:44<@Alberth> and some examples for inspiration :)
13:45<Nat_aS>wish I could just click and drag to raise and lower terrain in the scenerio editor
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24187 /trunk/src/lang/ (russian.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 2 changes by Terkhen
13:45<Nat_aS>the setup they have is great for editing terrain in game, but not making whole maps by hand
13:45<andythen_>Farm production seems to need changes
13:46<andythen_>One thing I could dono
13:47<andythen_>now is give farms higher max production, whilst setting initial production low
13:47<andythen_>This i can do now cb 15f is available
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13:49<andythen_>^ worrying. possibly my laptop just got stolen :p
13:53<andythen_>Maybe farms should use production cb for production, which enables more variety
13:55<andythen_>Or delivering fmsp has a faster production ramp
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14:00<ZxBiohazardZx>hey Nat_aS
14:01<ZxBiohazardZx>want me to host the savegame in 15 mins?
14:01<Nat_aS>uhh sure
14:01<ZxBiohazardZx>finishing up on some stuff
14:01<ZxBiohazardZx>but after that ill host it again to play a bit
14:04<ZxBiohazardZx>nvm finished already :P
14:04<ZxBiohazardZx>lets roll
14:05<ZxBiohazardZx>want me to increase our communistic income
14:05<ZxBiohazardZx>or not?
14:05<ZxBiohazardZx>aka free 20 mill yes/no
14:06<Nat_aS>YES COMERADE!
14:07<ZxBiohazardZx>cuban government invested 40 million :) server is up
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14:46<ZxBiohazardZx>its back again Nat_aS
14:46<ZxBiohazardZx>+300 mill
14:47<Nat_aS>gotta walk the dog
14:47<Nat_aS>maybe we should just start over tomorow?
14:48<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus any more play testing results on FIRS supplies patch?
14:48<ZxBiohazardZx>better plan Nat_aS
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14:56<Rhamphoryncus>In terms of stability I haven't seen any issues and I've used it tons
14:57<andythenorth>newgrf tends to work or not
14:57<andythenorth>but is it good fun?
14:57<Rhamphoryncus>For play style putting an engsup/farmsup train on the return path works for the most part
14:57<andythenorth>does it add, detract or 'meh'
14:57<Rhamphoryncus>Problem is there's still no way to moderate the transfer station
14:59<Rhamphoryncus>You either have a few thousand built up or you have none
15:00<Rhamphoryncus>It definitely adds over normal FIRS though
15:00<andythenorth>did you try it with FMSP
15:00<andythenorth>I ask because I've just written
15:00<andythenorth>which might adjust FMSP effect
15:01<Rhamphoryncus>I tried a biorefinery loop in one game and the volume was frustratingly low
15:03<andythenorth>farms start with low production
15:03<andythenorth>and grow slowly because of that
15:03<andythenorth>the gearing is low
15:03<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, very low and only ever hit medium
15:03<andythenorth>I'll do the first part of 3950
15:03<andythenorth>if that's not enough, I'll gear up the effect of FMSP too
15:04*Rhamphoryncus nods
15:04<andythenorth>how high should farm production be able to go?
15:04<andythenorth>if there's a cluster of 5 farms producing 1k tons grain each...that's a lot
15:04<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but I think the cluster is the problem
15:06<andythenorth>so coal mines top out around 900t
15:06<andythenorth>most other primaries a little less
15:07<andythenorth>farms @300t or 400t range?
15:07<andythenorth>currently 128t
15:07<Rhamphoryncus>per output or total?
15:07<andythenorth>per output
15:08<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, sounds like the right range then
15:08<andythenorth>maybe I should be rebalancing some of the others
15:08<andythenorth>I don't want insanely high production though, it adds little
15:09<Rhamphoryncus>Stupid-high production was always one of the fun things to deal with
15:09<Rhamphoryncus>IMO, firs has too many industries
15:10<Rhamphoryncus>I did a game with 2 towns and another with 5 and I still never got them all done
15:11<andythenorth>by design
15:12<andythenorth>I've been playing TTD a long time, I get bored once all industries are connected
15:12*Rhamphoryncus nods
15:12<andythenorth>you need 'economies'
15:13<Nat_aS>FIRS should be scalable
15:13<Nat_aS>in small maps it can be excessive
15:13<andythenorth>it is
15:13<Nat_aS>it is?
15:13<andythenorth>define 'scalable' :P
15:14<Rhamphoryncus>I should probably try more frequent service so I can do conditional order trickery to moderate production
15:15<Rhamphoryncus>scalable = not subject to the size paradox? :D
15:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: any comment on farm production? I respect your opinions on these issues...
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with it?
15:16<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Maybe I still have the wrong term >.>
15:16<andythenorth>^ I kind of agree with the premise
15:20<andythenorth>although coal mine has max prod. of ~900t, not ~2300t, which adjusts the case a bit
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>why is that, actually?
15:21<andythenorth>why is it 900t? That could be changed
15:21<andythenorth>I wanted initial production ~135t, and that sets the limit
15:21<andythenorth>but not any more
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i mean how is that done technically?
15:22<andythenorth>props 12 and 13
15:22<andythenorth>multiplied by prod_level, 8 or 9 times per month, with a /16 somewhere I think
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't tell me anything
15:23<andythenorth>change the question? :)
15:24<andythenorth>prod_level is capped at 128
15:25<andythenorth>so limit of any industry is (was) derived from whatever initial production I set
15:25<andythenorth>that cb 15F opens the possibility to change that
15:25<andythenorth>as would using the production cb, but I don't want to write code that openttd already has
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15:42<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling this can be simplified:
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>${AWK} --version > /dev/null 2> /dev/null
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>if [ "$?" != "0" ]; then
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15:43<majbom>hi there - what is the lower limit of bandwith / ping to play mulitplayer over the internet?
15:43<andythenorth>ha ha
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need much bandwidth at all
15:44<andythenorth>fishing grounds randomising production on build is a big improvement
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>the biggest usage is downloading the map on game start (might increase some timeouts for slow connections)
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise it's around 3kB/s per player
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause>you should better have a decent ping, though
15:45<andythenorth>scatterbrained ping times will cause choppiness
15:45*andythenorth found out once
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15:46<Eddi|zuHause>the game will throw you out if you don't answer in 10 seconds, but it gets virtually unplayable way before that
15:46<andythenorth>so if I dump the initial prod_level from 16 to 12, I can use larger values for prop 12, 13
15:46<andythenorth>which makes for higher max production, and a bigger spread of changes
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why not start at a production level of 4, if you never decrease anyway?
15:47<andythenorth>could do
15:47<andythenorth>I've no wish to see insane production though
15:47<andythenorth>decrease is available as an option btw
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>the game cannot handle more than ~2k production
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>for primary industries
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then start at 6 or so
15:48<andythenorth>8 would make the maths easier when adjusting current prop 12, 13 :P
15:48*andythenorth will use 8
15:51<majbom>speedtest says down: 3,5mbps, up: 0,45mbps, ping 37ms
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15:52<majbom>i can't connect to my mates game, but I get an error; "Your computer is to slow to keep up with the host" (it's translated from danish, so i'm not sure it's 100percent the correct message, but i hope you'll get the point
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is probably your CPU, not your connection...
15:54<majbom>well, it turned out it was some settings on my mates nic - it works now - thanks anyway :)
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>there are too many things in the game, so your CPU cannot calculate them in time
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16:21<frosch123>poll: did you know that you can change numeric advanced settings by clicking on them, and entering a number in the popup?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>but that should probably be made more obvious by a button
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i thought about that today, but couldn't bother making a mockup
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i also think one-of-many settings should have a list popping up
16:23<Rubidium>frosch123: really? :)
16:24<NGC3982>by the way
16:24<frosch123> <- i think it is kind of embarrasing for the player that we document that they clicked a button 4oo times (resp. waited for it slowly counting up)
16:24<NGC3982>that "your computer can not keep up" is something i get regulary the first four or five times when creating a lan game and joining it.
16:24<frosch123>NGC3982: how do you join the game?
16:24<NGC3982>the computer itself does not have any trouble with the actuall gameplay or network traffic.
16:25<frosch123>maybe by entering a password protected company?
16:25<frosch123>try joining as spectator
16:25<frosch123>and then only enter the company ingame
16:25<Rubidium>type faster
16:25<frosch123>^^ or that :p
16:25<NGC3982>i did that by accident, and the sign did not come up.
16:25<Rubidium>or fix that bug
16:26<NGC3982>the bug (if so) seems to timeout and show the message if im a bit too slow on the password.
16:26<frosch123>NGC3982: there is a timeout for clients to download a map. but sadly that timeout already starts when you are asked for the password
16:26<NGC3982>frosch123: ah, that explains it.
16:27<frosch123>so, either you have to type the password really fast, or you have to join as specator (without password)
16:27<NGC3982>is there any reason for it? or is it just it is. :)
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16:34<Rubidium>NGC3982: because of (yay for Grace Hopper documenting it very well)
16:35<NGC3982>Rubidium: fantastic.
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16:44<rtyler_>I'm running rc4, is there a way to fool the multiplayer set up to just pretend I'm 1.2 so I can connect to servers?
16:45-!-rtyler_ is now known as rtyler
16:45<rtyler>some dope packaged up openttd 1.2.0rc4 for openSUSE
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16:46<@Alberth>not really, as 1.2 reacts differently from 1.2.0-RC4, so you'll get kicked off in no time
16:46<TWerkhoven2[l]>you cant, and even if you could, its very possible you would disconnect with a desync very soon
16:46<FLHerne>rtyler: That would be a bad idea :P
16:47<@Alberth>you can download a stable binary
16:47<rtyler>RC must mean something different in openttd than elsewhere ;)
16:47*rtyler pokes around for a 1.2 stable binary
16:48<@Alberth>1.2.0 was a bit later than usual, so he decided he could not wait, apparently
16:48<rtyler>yeah, I see that
16:49<rtyler>looks like the openttd opensuse package is a bit out of date :/
16:49<rtyler>now to find a good beginner server <_<
16:50<rtyler>still have a lot of trouble setting up semaphores properly and things like that :/
16:51*rtyler boggles
16:52<@Alberth>I have never made that either :)
16:52<FLHerne>Not so bad compared to the openttdcoop loonies :D
16:52<Rubidium>rtyler: stable releases have more checks for versions due to some episodes of people trying to pass a version off for a stable release when it wasn't with all issues caused by that
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16:53<Rubidium>that terminus can be made even more efficient
16:53<frosch123>FLHerne: 5 platforms for a single line either means really fast trains compared to the loading time, or that it is a really bad layout :p
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16:53<Rubidium>crossing traffic is bad
16:53<@Alberth>rtyler: <-- a signal tutorial, there are more at the bottom of the Signals wiki page
16:54<@Terkhen>good night
16:54<@Alberth>good night Terkhen
16:54<rtyler>Alberth: thanks, I'll give it a read
16:54<@Alberth>I heard good things about it :)
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17:03<NGC3982>any tip on 1900-1950 bus/train grfs? (except NUTS)?
17:05<andythenorth>good night
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17:05<FLHerne>UKRS2(+) is the answer to all train-grf related questions :P
17:07<rtyler>do you chaps play at smaller resolutions to make it easier to mouse around this thing? :/
17:09<NGC3982>FLHerne: ill try it!
17:09<FLHerne>rtyler: Smaller than what? 1080p works OK here...
17:10<NGC3982>oooh.. 1830.
17:10<rtyler>well, my main monitor res is 1680x1050 <_<
17:10<rtyler>or perhaps there are keyboard shortcuts I'm missing
17:10<Zuu>rtyler: I always use windowed mode, so lowering the resolution don't make much sense.
17:10<FLHerne>What are you actually finding awkward at your resolution?
17:11<Zuu>Check your hotkeys.cfg for your current hotkeys. If you miss any, you can define or change them as you like.
17:11<rtyler>well, the interface is so mouse-heavy, and the fact that window x's are only 15x15 (roundabouts) makes them rather small click targets
17:12<rtyler>all buttons are maybe 15-20 pixels tall too :/
17:12<Zuu>If you prefix a hotkey with Global, the window that the corresponding button sits at will be opened automatically to perform the hotkey. (will not work on vehicle windows where OpenTTD don't know which vehicle to pick)
17:12<FLHerne>Oh, small pixels? There's a grf for that :P
17:15<Zuu>rtyler: The interface allows more or less keyboard-less interaction (with the exception of Ctrl and Shift), but if you read up on hotkeys you can make several tasks less mouse-heavy.
17:16<NGC3982>FLHerne: now that looks fantastic.
17:17<FLHerne>rtyler: If the buttons are too small, you want
17:20<Chris_Booth>FLHerne: what about if you have buttons that are to big?
17:22<FLHerne>I've not seen a small-gui project :P . What has a low enough pixel density to need one?
17:22<Chris_Booth>not sure someone on a really old 800x600 screen
17:24<FLHerne>I have a really old 800x600 screen (on another computer), I don't find it a problem :D
17:25<FLHerne>Laptop though, maybe an 800x600 desktop screen would be worse
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>the game originally was designed for 640x480
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>which is the width of the main toolbar
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>you can meanwhile make it smaller
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>it will overlap the buttons
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>and eventually switch between two sets of buttons
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>some mobile devices may benefit from a low resolution
17:39*FLHerne wonders if the very-aged-looking GUI could be made 'shinier'
17:39<FLHerne>Optionally, of course :P
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>via grf: the buttons, yes. colours and shapes, no. interaction, no.
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17:43<FLHerne>It seems (looking at the Android/DS etc ports) that the current GUI doesn't deal with non-PC-style devices well. :-(
17:43<maoranma>Yay, I've successully repaid the bank loans! I'm finally learning how to play~
17:43<FLHerne>Maybe that's something for the devs to work on :P
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>pfft... repay bank loan... the innocence :)
17:45<maoranma>I'm still just learning >_>
17:48<FLHerne>The annoying thing is when you have more money than you can rationally spend :D
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17:54<NGC3982>maoranma: good on you!
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17:56<Wolf01>'night all
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18:08<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: "if ${AWK} --version &> /dev/null; then ... "
18:10*FLHerne goes to bed
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18:40<rtyler>heh, after subsidizing it, the town I was delivering goods to, no longer accepts goods
18:40*rtyler boggles
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>that happens quite often for small towns
18:47<rtyler>I'm practicing on a 64x64 map
18:48<rtyler>after these subsidies, passengers at bus stations plummeted, as did oil production and some other stuff
18:48<rtyler>must be that last 70's gas crisis that Carter caused ;)
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18:54<rtyler>my small towns seem to be dying :(
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>you're already lucky that you have more than one town :)
19:02<rtyler>heh, two!
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think the maximum is 4
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19:09<rtyler>what would be a good size to learn creating hubs to practice signaling with?
19:10<Rhamphoryncus>I would probably start with stations, not hubs
19:11<rtyler>right, they'd be stations, I meant conceptually
19:11<rtyler>like bringing coal from N stations together
19:14<Rhamphoryncus>By the time a mine is scaled up fully it doesn't take too many to saturate a single line
19:14<Rhamphoryncus>Depending on how quickly your trains accelerate, how long they are, etc
19:16<Rhamphoryncus>So.. hrm, maybe a longer but still narrow map, going one end to the other with multiple industry types
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19:25<rtyler>is there a means of having N number of vehicles share the same orders?
19:25<rtyler>I'd like to just use a bus fleet, and control them all the same
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22:57<Rhamphoryncus>rtyler: hold ctrl when clicking clone
22:58<Rhamphoryncus>rtyler: you can also take an existing vehicle, activate the add new order, and ctrl-click on another vehicle. That'll make them share
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 30 00:00:04 2012