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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-11

---Logopened Mon Jun 11 00:00:15 2012
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01:43<George>Can the house get the information about amount of food, delivered to town this month?
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02:01<NGC3982>morning people.
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03:14<Rubidium>Xaroth: good night then ;)
03:14<John`Doe>Xaroth: good night then ;)
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05:01<Xaroth>Rubidium: crazy man :P
05:02<@planetmaker>who's not crazy? :-P
05:03<Xaroth>depends on who you ask
05:03<cornishpasty>Not me!
05:03*Xaroth eats cornishpasty
05:03<Xaroth>hmmmm... pasty
05:03*cornishpasty is eaten.
05:04<Xaroth>planetmaker: I must show my admiration for the team for being able to remain somewhat sane with all those trolls....
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06:05*andythenorth ponders this silly Bananas debate
06:06<@planetmaker>have a banana instead ;-) Or maybe an orange
06:06<andythenorth>apples :P
06:07<andythenorth>honestly I would rather see Simuscape thrive and not have these issues
06:07<andythenorth>I've read the posts, and there are numerous people who are genuinely upset and hurt by what goes on at tt-forums
06:08<andythenorth>including some that might be surprising
06:08<andythenorth>if two communities are what is needed, I would rather see them rub along, with civil interchange
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06:11<FLHerne>What is the alleged problem with tt-forums, anyway?
06:12<FLHerne>i.e. why the Simuscape community #split off
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06:49<andythenorth>FLHerne: the forums are, for some, quite a robust environment
06:50<andythenorth>it can be difficult for some to enjoy that
06:50<andythenorth>there is a small irony - some of those who make it a difficult environment are also people who have moved, in some cases dramatically, to Simuscape
06:51<andythenorth>which makes me wonder if Simuscape is really going to pan out to be the friendly, supportive environment they're hoping for, or wether it ultimately implodes in drama
06:51<andythenorth>but I wish it success
06:51<andythenorth>I would rather see multiple thriving tt communities, and no sense of tribalism
07:17<cornishpasty>NGC3982: I agree
07:22<NGC3982>a wonderful writer
07:22<NGC3982>but so very, very german
07:23<NGC3982>describes love as a tool
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09:57<TrueBrain>user joins. user shows facebook url with random picture; do I dare to open?
09:59<telanus>it's just a Nestle Truck :D
09:59<TrueBrain>pfew :)
10:00<telanus>ThHink I saw the shortest Abnormal load truck in a few years today.
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10:02<telanus>It was about 15-17m, but was carrying a truck on it's load deck, and that truck was carrying a small 1.5ton truck
10:02<TrueBrain>haha, lolz
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10:20<Eddi|zuHause>i think one of my HDDs is displaying aging symptoms
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>now... what does /mnt/disk3 map to wrt physical disks?
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10:24<Eddi|zuHause>mount says /dev/mapper/_dev_sdc4
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that helps :p
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>apparently that is a symlink to /dev/dm-0
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10:40<FLHerne> doesn't even exist now :-(
10:40*FLHerne looks at a guinea pig :P
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10:54<Rubidium>bonjour Belugas
10:54<@Belugas>Bonjour a toi aussi, Rubidium :)
10:54<TrueBrain>ugh, go visit eachother or something
10:55*Belugas kisses TrueBrain
10:55<andythenorth>bonjour TrueBrain
10:55<TrueBrain>yes, I am
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10:57<andythenorth>TrueBrain: it's always fun when design suggestions for a system are made by people who have not looked at what the system is / does :)
10:57<andythenorth>as the owner of a software company, it's one of my favourite things to deal with :)
10:57<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it is .... special, so to say :)
10:57<TrueBrain>I mean, at least login once?
10:57<TrueBrain>and look?
10:57<TrueBrain>but meh :)
10:57<TrueBrain>I am already happy they are replying in a constructive way
10:57<TrueBrain>and, with good ideas between them :)
11:00<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you may or may not hate lean stuff, but anyway,
11:00<andythenorth>as a manager / company owner I try to always remember it
11:01<andythenorth>maybe I should make a system diagram of bananas?
11:02<TrueBrain>for our customers (I work for a software company / ISP), we have apiece of software which requires them to be on the site they report issues with
11:02<TrueBrain>including screenshots etc
11:02<TrueBrain>it works wonders
11:03<TrueBrain>reminds me, what do you think of the speed of this:
11:03<andythenorth>so I missed the ToS on signup, I guess my eyes aren't working early in the morning
11:03<andythenorth>TrueBrain: perceptually fine, do you want an actual time to load report?
11:03<TrueBrain>no :P
11:03<TrueBrain>after first load, it is client-cached
11:03<TrueBrain>and it is almost finished! \o/
11:04<FLHerne>What's that supposed to look like?
11:04<TrueBrain>like :P
11:05<TrueBrain>only much faster / better
11:05<TrueBrain>and new menu :P
11:05<andythenorth>the selected state is the same on both navbars, I find that a bit strange to see personally
11:05<TrueBrain>what would you suggest?
11:05<TrueBrain>other colours?
11:05<andythenorth>green for second
11:05<andythenorth>green and orange together is a bit naughty, but fits the theme
11:05<TrueBrain>are you in any means to make such an image, by any chance? :P
11:05<andythenorth>or just invert the grey
11:05<andythenorth>right now I'm holding one baby and preventing the toddler doing damage to self / house / lego trains
11:06<andythenorth>if you're here later, I can do it
11:06<TrueBrain>would be nice :D
11:06<TrueBrain>I suck at that greatly
11:06<andythenorth>a variation on the over state would do, just a bit lighter
11:06<TrueBrain>Osai used to do it for me :D
11:06<FLHerne>Should it be "Test 𤭢 Message Second line Test 𤭢 Message 3rd"? Or am I supposed to be seeing newlines there?
11:06<andythenorth>I can do it
11:06<andythenorth>I'm not a great designer, but I can make internets
11:06<TrueBrain>FLHerne: no; you don't have a utf-8 charset loaded :P
11:06<TrueBrain>some weird chinese symbols are there
11:06<TrueBrain>owh, the lines you mean
11:07<TrueBrain>yeah, there is no \n -> <br> yet
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11:07<TrueBrain>good point :D
11:07<FLHerne>Oh, ok. And I should install some fonts :D
11:07<TrueBrain>almost nobody has it :P
11:07<TrueBrain>it is a very odd char :P
11:07<FLHerne>What's it for then?
11:07<TrueBrain>to test UTF-8
11:07<TrueBrain>I had it installed
11:07<TrueBrain>so ...
11:07<TrueBrain>but as it turns out, I am alone there :D
11:08-!-cachila [] has quit []
11:08<TrueBrain>have you seen the serverlist filter? :P
11:08<TrueBrain>it needs a nice CSS, but it does work nicely :D
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11:09<FLHerne>Will Bananas have the second bar as well?
11:09<TrueBrain>check /en/bananas/
11:09<TrueBrain>most important reason for this rewrite btw, is language support
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11:11<andythenorth>TrueBrain: when do we get to rebuild the bananas frontend ? :P
11:12<TrueBrain>after that? I dunno :P
11:12<andythenorth>I am away most of June
11:12<andythenorth>after that?
11:12<TrueBrain>I told in dev-channel already, if all it takes for SAC to upload his files to BaNaNaS that it looks better, it is a small effort to at least do that .. as it is heavily overdue anyway :P
11:13<andythenorth>I have one patch on it that Rubidiu* committed last year
11:13<andythenorth>but otherwise lack of dev environment blocks me :P
11:14<andythenorth>django I don't know, but looks trivial, similar to the other python frameworks
11:14<TrueBrain>depending how this talk with SAC et al goes, we might want to revisit how BaNaNaS works
11:14<andythenorth>maybe indeed
11:14<TrueBrain>if they really want deleting of old versions, we are on an impas in these regards
11:14<TrueBrain>and we might want to lean more towards grfcrawler
11:14<TrueBrain>no clue how, or what, or ...
11:14<andythenorth>I am fine with it
11:15<TrueBrain>I don't really like it, as I like the openess BaNaNaS offers, but we will have to see
11:15<andythenorth>are you familiar with saying "that's a version [n] feature"?
11:15<TrueBrain>SAC appears very willing to solve the issue, and I am sure others are too, so
11:15<andythenorth>[we do it with software customers]
11:15<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it is what I tell my boss all the time :P
11:15<TrueBrain>yeah, for 1.1 .. which never happens
11:15<andythenorth>meanwhile we're shipping version n-1
11:15<andythenorth>often the n-1 features ar
11:15<andythenorth>turn out to be good enough
11:16<TrueBrain>and sometimes customers don't know what they really want
11:16<TrueBrain>they think they want n, but really, they don't
11:17<andythenorth>often our customers specify n before using our app or any competitors
11:17<andythenorth>when they use n-1 they're happy enough
11:17<TrueBrain>back to BaNaNaS, a common complaints is the many many types we have
11:17<TrueBrain>and the clouded overview it presents new users with
11:18<TrueBrain>we sort by upload or download count
11:18<TrueBrain>which is silly
11:18<TrueBrain>I always wanted to make some kind of review board
11:18<TrueBrain>where you rate uploads
11:18<TrueBrain>it might be a good time to add that
11:18<andythenorth>moi aussi
11:18<TrueBrain>too often the question is asked: what grfs are good to play with
11:18<TrueBrain>there is n o answer of course
11:18<andythenorth>star ratings are very problematic btw
11:19<andythenorth>allow sharing of presets?
11:19<andythenorth>or groups?
11:19<TrueBrain>but they need some kind of rating too
11:19<TrueBrain>or description
11:19<TrueBrain>or indication of playtype
11:19<TrueBrain>like I understood Pikka's set introduces a different economy
11:19<andythenorth>ratings is a messy social problem :)
11:19<TrueBrain>which for me is really interesting
11:19<TrueBrain>but by accident I found that out
11:19<TrueBrain>yeah, so we need something ... more clever
11:20<andythenorth>I want 'actual time played with'
11:20<andythenorth>but that needs an illegal 'phone home' feature :P
11:20<TrueBrain>interesting idea/concept
11:20<TrueBrain>well ..
11:20<TrueBrain>we known which grfs run on servers
11:21<TrueBrain>that can be an indication, although an unfair one
11:21<TrueBrain>what I see in logs, that atm people just "Select All" + "Download"
11:21<TrueBrain>that for sure doesn't work .. but changing that ingame ... no clue how
11:22<TrueBrain>I had some weird ideas like: inclient you can login, then it syncs your files with the server
11:22<TrueBrain>(server =
11:22<TrueBrain>at you can select which files you want for your game
11:22<TrueBrain>basically, prepare your whole game
11:22<TrueBrain>a bit 'cloud' idea
11:23<andythenorth>so you could choose other people's pre-prepared games?
11:23<TrueBrain>as ingame it will never be easy to select specific grfs I guess :P
11:23<TrueBrain>for all I care, with all the settings included
11:23<TrueBrain>but at least with the grfs
11:23<andythenorth>'add to my game'
11:23<andythenorth>'download my game'
11:23<TrueBrain>I also have been pondering about ideas like: upload your savegame into "the cloud"
11:24<TrueBrain>or sync
11:24<TrueBrain>what ever
11:24<TrueBrain>so you can play where-ever
11:24<TrueBrain>I often had that need with OpenTTD :P
11:24<TrueBrain>had to put it on an USB-stick
11:24<andythenorth>configure online, download:
11:24<TrueBrain>but that is a bit outside the scope of BaNaNaS :P
11:24<cornishpasty>B A N A N A S
11:24<blathijs>TrueBrain: Put your savegames inside dropbox? :-)
11:24<andythenorth>TrueBrain: s3
11:24<TrueBrain>blathijs: lolz, valid suggestion
11:24<cornishpasty>andythenorth: public ftp
11:24<TrueBrain>never crossed my mind, while I have it installed
11:24<TrueBrain>silly :D
11:24<andythenorth>'upgrade your space for $15' :P
11:25<blathijs>TrueBrain: Ironically I don't actually use dropbox ;-p
11:25<TrueBrain>but given the amount of HD space we have on our server, we could also allow it on
11:25<TrueBrain>anyway, just random ideas I sometimes have
11:25<TrueBrain>to make OpenTTD more ... modern
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11:25<andythenorth>savegames get....big :o
11:25<TrueBrain>bandwidth is the only issue really
11:25<TrueBrain>(yours, not ours :P)
11:25<cornishpasty>Charge people for online storage!
11:26<cornishpasty>You get 5MB free then £100/byte
11:26<TrueBrain>as long as I am SysOp of OpenTTD, that will never happen
11:26<TrueBrain>never ever
11:26<cornishpasty>TrueBrain: good idea for next April 1 though
11:26<TrueBrain>I agree
11:26<TrueBrain>bit late
11:26<cornishpasty>NEXT TIME!
11:27<andythenorth>TrueBrain: what about my $2 per grf idea :P
11:27<andythenorth>it would make somebody rich
11:27<TrueBrain>but no
11:27<andythenorth>you own the store
11:27<andythenorth>I get 30% less tax :(
11:27<TrueBrain>the main issue with grfs, they are all so differently
11:27<TrueBrain>there is not one golden file
11:28<TrueBrain>when starting, the download counter was sufficient
11:28<TrueBrain>but as people downlolad EVERYTHING, it is mute
11:28<andythenorth>I proposed a reviewer system once, where you could 'see what pikka is playing' or whatever
11:29<andythenorth>'rate this combination' rather than 'rate this grf'
11:29<andythenorth>rating grfs in isolation is nearly pointless
11:29<TrueBrain>I guess I should open a topic about it, and hope for the same kind of replies as I got the last 48h on copyright stuff
11:29<TrueBrain>it really is, yes
11:29*andythenorth will put on 'filter out stupid idea glasses'
11:30*andythenorth is a low patience person
11:30<TrueBrain>I kinda like my idea of online profiles, that might be useful
11:30<TrueBrain>to share, mostly
11:30<andythenorth>'my favourite grfs'
11:30<TrueBrain>but so yeah .. BaNaNaS need a strong redesign, in concept more than code :)
11:30<andythenorth>just link to twitter
11:30<andythenorth>tweet my grf combination
11:30<andythenorth>(as a hash)
11:30<TrueBrain>its not the worst idea
11:31<TrueBrain>gives a lot of fuzz to all his followers
11:31<TrueBrain>they might click it
11:31<TrueBrain>kinda like the idea :)
11:31<andythenorth>could just extend bananas so you get a profile even if not a content author
11:31<andythenorth>for posting reviews, combinations, upload your savegame
11:31<TrueBrain>yeah, that is what I was thinking about
11:31<TrueBrain>as that goes in side with some old idea of allowing authentication for the client
11:32<TrueBrain>in regards of joining servers which wants some kind of filtering
11:32<TrueBrain>but that is a lot of work involved :D
11:32<andythenorth>we build those kind of apps
11:32<TrueBrain>there once was also a planned rewrite for the MS, to allow more information
11:32<andythenorth>some of them, we don't build anymore, too much work
11:32<TrueBrain>but as nobody replied on Rbs topic, he never implemented it :(
11:32<TrueBrain>people tend to forget developers need praise from time to time
11:33<TrueBrain>(for allt he right reasons)
11:33<TrueBrain>too many feel OpenTTD is a given, and forget the effort involved :)
11:33*TrueBrain brings up the $2 per grf idea again :P
11:33<andythenorth>charging for stuff brings expectations of service
11:33<TrueBrain>I have no interest in charging money :)
11:34<TrueBrain>interesting ideas are flowing from you andythenorth
11:34<@planetmaker>nah. A setup fee :-P
11:34<TrueBrain>lets talk more when you have time, I am sure we can cook up something nice
11:34<andythenorth>charity ware
11:34<andythenorth>want to play? donate to charity
11:34<TrueBrain>atm I have sufficient stuff to write for OpenTTD; I might even bring myself doing it :P
11:34<TrueBrain>(all web-software is 3+ years old ... its terrible!)
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11:35<andythenorth>we're closing a 7 year old app this week
11:35<TrueBrain>owh, I also still have to build a Jira test setup, so others can see how good Jira is for bug-tracker :P
11:35<TrueBrain>cratz on that :D
11:35<andythenorth>is Jira good?
11:35<TrueBrain>it is
11:35<andythenorth>I need to get off Trac at work
11:36<andythenorth>I like redmine
11:36<TrueBrain>Redmine is good only if you have 1 project
11:36<andythenorth>and we have zendesk for customer support
11:36<andythenorth>trac smells
11:36<TrueBrain>it works terrible for multiproject overview
11:36<andythenorth>not worse than trac :P
11:36<TrueBrain>Jira is a very large commercial product, so there are a lot of things in and on it
11:36<TrueBrain>but you can filter most things out pretty easily
11:36<TrueBrain>so after the setup time, it lokos nice, works fast, and has tons of kewl features
11:37<TrueBrain>I love the Agile support most I guess
11:37<TrueBrain>Grann support, clear overviews and reports for the managers
11:37<TrueBrain>and very cheap if you have < 10 users in your company
11:37*andythenorth adds it to the list
11:37<andythenorth>redmine is....ok
11:37<andythenorth>best I can say
11:37<TrueBrain>it ... works
11:38<TrueBrain>we used it for a while
11:38<andythenorth>anything is better than trac
11:38<TrueBrain>but after a month of 6, it became so messy ...
11:38<andythenorth>trac was once brilliant, but life moves on
11:38<TrueBrain>trac is the most terrible product I have seen for that :P
11:38<andythenorth>better than the one we wrote in house :P
11:38<TrueBrain>I have to add, we just switched to Jira, so it might become an issue in the future
11:38<TrueBrain>but so far .. omg :P
11:39<andythenorth>is it hosted? Or do you host yourself?
11:39*andythenorth looks
11:39<TrueBrain>host ourself
11:39<TrueBrain>much cheaper
11:39<TrueBrain>(10$ per month or 10$ a year, basically)
11:39<TrueBrain>quick choice :D
11:39<TrueBrain>make sure to also check Greenhopper and Bonfire
11:40<andythenorth>hosting yourself is good if you have sysop on tap
11:40<TrueBrain>I guess it is a good thing I am a sysop :D
11:40<TrueBrain>other nice pieces of software to integrated in Jira: FishEye and Crucible
11:40<TrueBrain>FishEye shows your SVN/git/hg in a nice way
11:40<TrueBrain>Crucible alows patch reviewing
11:41<TrueBrain>Bamboo OpenTTD uses for auto-compiling (also from the same people)
11:42<TrueBrain>and if you check who uses it ..... you understand why I talk about it this foundly
11:42<TrueBrain>Coca Cola, Paypal, Ebay, Netflix, MTV, Facebook, UPS, NASA, ......
11:42<TrueBrain>I wonder if it is true, but I guess
11:42<TrueBrain>its on their frontpage :P
11:43<TrueBrain>enough promoting of Atlassian :P
11:43<TrueBrain>I am off for some dinner
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11:49<Rubidium>I am off for some breakfast ;)
11:50<andythenorth>i am holding a baby
11:50<andythenorth>very wriggly
11:51<FLHerne>I was holding a guinea pig a few minutes ago :D Less wriggly, actually... :P
12:03-!-SAC [] has joined #openttd
12:04<SAC>Am I alone here?
12:05<__ln__>we all are
12:05<SAC>Okey, I have no idea who you are though... ;p
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12:09<SAC>Oh well, I'll get back later on...
12:10<andythenorth>SAC: TrueBrain is away having some food, but will be back later and is looking for Bananananas suggestions
12:10*andythenorth also afk
12:11<SAC>Okey! Well, I assume he's not the only one? For this to work out in the right direction, we all need to participate one way or another...
12:12<Zuu>17:23:50 < TrueBrain> people tend to forget developers need praise from time to time <--- Thanks for your post on SCP :-)
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12:17<SAC>What's SCP?
12:18<TrueBrain>Zuu: hehe; I was heavily surprised someone wrote that :D
12:18<TrueBrain>SCP is an AI/GS lib they wrote; something I once claimed nobody would ever do, so why implement it in the C++ side
12:19<TrueBrain>so sometimes all it needs is 1 word: wow :D
12:21<TrueBrain>either way: hi :) Glad you made it over here
12:22<SAC>Thank you! I've been here before - in different ways... ;p Anyway TrueBrain, not to confuse too much, but should we focus on the BaNaNaS Suggestion thread rather than the copright one?
12:22<TrueBrain>yes please :)
12:22<TrueBrain>first off, I have to say, I am happy you are open for dialog; often I see people who are against something, are against it for no reason and just keep bashing over and over and over. It is refreshing for me you are not one of those people. It has to be said :D
12:23<TrueBrain>As far as copyright goes, I think all has been said and done. A learning experience for all, lets call it, and leave it at that :)
12:23<SAC>Well, I may have different opinions in matters, but that doesn't mean I can't see the bigger picture...
12:23<TrueBrain>so, BaNaNaS
12:24<SAC>We cannot afford to have these arguings over and over again, as the only result is that people will loose interest in the game overall...
12:24<TrueBrain>true words; happens a lot, sadly :(
12:24<TrueBrain>so, lets get constructive: can you elaborate on your upload issue with BaNaNaS?
12:24<TrueBrain>I have always been curious about this, but never the means to ask :D
12:25<SAC>Yes BaNaNaS, I'm writing something that may reflect my point of views, concerning not only the BaNaNaS but the community as a whole. If we're going to make a change it needs to be reflected within the entore community...
12:26<SAC>...and along with this we're dsicussing the subject also over at Simuscape, both in public members section and inside the admins section...
12:26<TrueBrain>discussion is good; as long as people are open and acceptance to others opinions, it can only lead to better things :)
12:27<TrueBrain>(PS: did you know simuscape looks a lot like simutrans; any relation between the two, or just pure luck?)
12:28<SAC>Well, that's the purpose! Be we ALL need to participate one way or another for this to work out properly in the end... Doing things half way through measn we're soon back on square One again...
12:28<TrueBrain>(the name, ofc)
12:28<TrueBrain>hehe; yes :)
12:28<SAC>Pure luck eally! I don't even play Simutrans... :)
12:29<SAC>But I do like dark colors... ;p
12:29<TrueBrain>I can of course only talk for myself, but as System Operator, you have my attention
12:30<SAC>Yeah, but this isn't about me alone. It's about all of us - although I may have misinterpreted you there...
12:30<TrueBrain>hehe; you did. I mean to say: I am open for dialog, but I am just a small part of OpenTTD
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12:30<TrueBrain>there is a lot done and said, I have no clue how others are towards this goal
12:31<TrueBrain>I have been reading a lot of old posts today, and every time I keep reading misassumptions between people
12:31<TrueBrain>you clearly see people colouring in how other people are, and acting upon that
12:31<TrueBrain>I am the first to admit I am part of that problem
12:31<TrueBrain>to take an example: when mb talks, I assume he is out to hurt someone. Then again, when he asks us/me something, he assumes we won't reply
12:32<TrueBrain>the community is full of those back and forth assumptions and wrong-doing
12:32<SAC>No, that's the problem... If we're going to succeed with this I also believe we need to straighten up some issues historically... Like for instance the one between me and Andythenorth which is plain stupid to begin with...
12:33<SAC>MB has a special way of discussing things, and I'm sure his way of doing it - although not intentional - may cause people to be upset...
12:34<SAC>As you said, a lot of theses issues bottles down to language barriers or similar...
12:34<TrueBrain>yeah ... we have those issues even within the OpenTTD dev team :)
12:34<TrueBrain>it is so hard to express yourself in another language when you feel deeply about something
12:34<Sacro>zomg it's SAC ^_^
12:34<SAC>True... it's very difficult... one way to at least overcome some of it are to use smilies... :)
12:35<TrueBrain>but, I guess if we are serious about cleaning up 'this mess', we have to start somewhere
12:35<TrueBrain>I tihnk the easiest approach is if we all just indicate what troubles us, so it can be talked about .. but I have no clue how that travels with others :)
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12:35<TrueBrain>I am the kind of person that just yells what annoys him, and mostly I get good feedback on that :D
12:36<SAC>For instance, it was suggested today at Simuscape today that no swearwords whatsoever should be allowed in any discussions - as one step towards a better and improved atmosphere...
12:36<TrueBrain>I have to admit, only when I took your smilies seriously, your posts weren't as bad as I initially read them :D
12:37<TrueBrain>that is a fair suggestion
12:37<SAC>This may sound trivial but in the end it will have an impact...
12:37<TrueBrain>showing mutual respect is also something to remember; it is easy to assume the other means bad, but if we start to think the other means well, it becomes easier
12:37<SAC>True as well...
12:38<TrueBrain>something simple: today you replied to me: "wrong again", where it was the first time I replied to you
12:38<TrueBrain>at first, it made me go: GRRRR
12:38<TrueBrain>then I realised: you had to take the (sorry for my wording) shit of others first
12:38<TrueBrain>so it is logic from your point of view
12:38<SAC>I admit I could have used a better word - and believe me, I was aware of it to start with
12:39<TrueBrain>so I guess if we all step in the assumption the other doesn't mean bad, it is easier to talk to one-another
12:39<TrueBrain>it is only very hard to do that, for a community as a whole :D
12:39<SAC>Yes that and using the kinder word when we address things...
12:39<TrueBrain>so, I like to be concrete (As you might have noticed), lets just try tackling some issues there are
12:39<TrueBrain>let me bite in a big one: why do you feel the need for a simuscape commuity?
12:40<SAC>Okey, give me a moment to respond...
12:40<TrueBrain>(feel free to say you don't want to talk about it at this stage or what ever; I am a very curious person and just blur those things out there :P)
12:40<SAC>Not to worry, I prefer people who are brutally honest - and curious... ;p
12:41*andythenorth has a comment to make about tt-forums community, but will wait for right moment
12:41<TrueBrain>andythenorth: we all have :P
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12:42<SAC>First of, Simuscape has always been there. It's not my first site, but when I closed down the others I had in mind to open up Simuscape...
12:43<SAC>2nd of all, with all the arguings over at TT-forums, which I was part of myself at times - just ask Andy ;p - I felt an urge to have my own place without the disturbance of conflicts...
12:43<TrueBrain>haha, I can relate to that issue :D
12:43<SAC>And quite frankly, I'm of the opinion that the more the merrier...
12:44<TrueBrain>well, let me explain a bit why I ask; I am of the opinion that condensing information is always for the better
12:44<TrueBrain>having 1000 places information is available, I dislike
12:44<TrueBrain>you see that in all my work for OpenTTD
12:44<TrueBrain>all services I created, are there to bring people close together
12:44<TrueBrain>so for me, having several forums is annoying; it doesn't mean I don't see the need for them, nor that I disaprove
12:45<TrueBrain>it just makes me wonder: so .. why does he feel the need to go there :)
12:45*andythenorth has to go wrangle toddlers and babies, biab
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12:45<andythenorth>TrueBrain: after joining Simuscape I read what had happened to Leanden, which you are probably not aware of, wrt a grf drama
12:45<SAC>I'm actually addressing this in my respond over at TT-forums - partially at least... (not posted yet)
12:45<andythenorth>and it annoyed me that Leanden felt the need to leave tt-forums
12:45<TrueBrain>andythenorth: ingeneral you can assume I am not up-to-date about drama :P
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12:46<TrueBrain>SAC: good; as I am very interested to know :)
12:46<andythenorth>Leanden forked a grf at my recommendation, due to stupidity by the so-called 'community' building it
12:46<andythenorth>he then got driven off the forums in a bout of stupid drama
12:46<andythenorth>the people who drove him out are not people who create things mostly, but rather back-seat drive and somewhat bully, or just ask stupid questions
12:46<TrueBrain>so he got punished for doing something you both considered good?
12:47<andythenorth>effectively yes
12:47<TrueBrain>ugh; horrifying
12:47<andythenorth>then more sensible people jumped on him for going somewhere else and doing closed-doors development
12:47<SAC>I agree
12:47<TrueBrain>and so the balls rolls and rolls
12:47<SAC>If I may say something here...
12:47-!-blathijs [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:47<TrueBrain>please do :)
12:48<SAC>It's very important to realize that Simuscape isn't an enemy site to TT-forums. On the contrary, Simuscape focus on graphics development to 99%, while TT-forums handles graphics as well, but is more for the OTTD development part...
12:49<andythenorth>I would raise that with orudge :)
12:49<SAC>And to sort of reply to your comment yesterday Andythenorth, the Artists Guild does not provide any files at all... It's a workshop... ;p
12:50<TrueBrain>if I understand you correctly, and do correct me if I was wrong, basically you want your own corner on the internet where not every troll comments on things they don't know about?
12:50<TrueBrain>(and yes, tt-forums has trolls, sufficient to fill a house full)
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12:51<andythenorth>they don't always know they're trolling :P
12:51<TrueBrain>which makes it worse :D
12:51<andythenorth>by the nature of the game we attract people a certain approach to social matters :P
12:51<SAC>Sort of... Some of us feel the need to be able to create and develop stuff in a more private area where a few other artists are located... This does miracle to creativity... And when we feel the need, we publish tidbits inside the Visual Studio
12:52<TrueBrain>I respect that, and can't blame you for it
12:52<SAC>As some may think... ;p Getting praised is NOT what I'm after... that doesn't add to the creativity at all...
12:52<TrueBrain>yesterday I did think you were ;)
12:52<andythenorth>SAC: private / safe area makes sense. This naturally creates some friction with those of us who prefer everything to be open, but it makes sense
12:52<TrueBrain>for that I do appoligize, but it had all appearances :)
12:53<SAC>There are lots of things being developed within the Artists Guild, and thanks to the Guild actually...
12:53<TrueBrain>to give you a bit of an idea of community from my side:
12:53<andythenorth>if there must be two places (and it appears there must), they should co-exist
12:53<TrueBrain>Developers of OpenTTD used to talk in #openttd about anything
12:54<TrueBrain>then the trolls came (no disrespect to anyone, just want to point out how they feel)
12:54<TrueBrain>people who comments on everything, with or without knowledge
12:54<SAC>Andythenorth, I'm addressing this as well... I totally agree... :)
12:54<TrueBrain>it forced us to go in our own secret channel, hiding
12:54<TrueBrain>I never really liked this move, even so I caused the move
12:54<TrueBrain>I always liked we could talk development in this channel, for everyone to comment
12:54<TrueBrain>the community grew too big
12:54<TrueBrain>and .. well .. here we are :P
12:54<andythenorth>we are where we are
12:55<TrueBrain>how I preceive your story, you went through the same stages basically
12:55<andythenorth>things I am uncomfortable with:
12:55<andythenorth>(1) that simuscape is seen as a rejection of tt-forums - and a move there is seen as political, which is nonsense
12:56<SAC>There will always be "trolls". The important thing is how we address them from all sides... :)
12:56<TrueBrain>SAC: very true, and good point
12:56<andythenorth>(2) typing while holding babies. that is uncomfortable :P
12:56<SAC>1) In parts it is of course, but I want to change that
12:56<SAC>2) Very muchsooo :)
12:57<TrueBrain>no experience with it, sry :P
12:57<SAC>be right back...
12:57<TrueBrain>tend to keep it that way :D
12:57<andythenorth>(1) ss is just an alternative choice
12:57-!-tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:57<TrueBrain>alternatives are not bad an sich; reasons for it can be
12:59<TrueBrain>wb :)
12:59<TrueBrain>random questions I am just wondering about
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13:00<TrueBrain>I asusme simscape does publish grfs, but you can only download them if you registered?
13:00<TrueBrain>(given Public Area gives me 1 topic :P)
13:00<TrueBrain>not judging btw, just curious how your mindset is regarding simuscape :)
13:01<TrueBrain>owh, that is a subforum
13:01<TrueBrain>INFRA is available there I see
13:01<SAC>Yes, we do have a registration requirement along with a first post. This is mainly to prevent spambots to get inside, and we have been succesful there... I do have to delete accounts on a daily basis though...
13:02<TrueBrain>ugh, I hate spambots :)
13:02<SAC>...but they never make it into the sections...
13:02<TrueBrain>other random: why make closed source graphics?
13:02<TrueBrain>purely curious, again :)
13:03<SAC>Not sure what you mean by that?
13:03<TrueBrain>euhm, I work for .. 10+ years in open source world now
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13:03<TrueBrain>my mindset is totally brainwashed, and I want to make as much as possible open source
13:03<TrueBrain>but grf authors always tend to keep it closed source
13:03<TrueBrain>(exceptions there)
13:04<TrueBrain>I never manage to speak to someone who is honest enough to give me an answer :D
13:04<SAC>In all honesty I've had custom files stolen on many occassions in the past... TTDLX isn't my first game community, but even there I've had stuff finding its way out to the public... stolen trees for instance... and new trees...
13:04*andythenorth is confused by this too
13:05<TrueBrain>but can't they steal from your closed source too?
13:05<SAC>I think it bottles down to the way I personally look at my work..
13:05<SAC>Sure they can..
13:05<andythenorth>'openness' (or lack of) is probably the biggest thing that I get frustrated about :P
13:05<TrueBrain>(it btw horrifies me that people steal from others, even without credits ... like .. wtf?!)
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13:05<andythenorth>it horrifies me that I might make work that other people can't use / reuse
13:05<TrueBrain>okay, honest answer, I like that; tnx :D
13:06<andythenorth>I might leave, or get bored, or die, and my work is gone
13:06<TrueBrain>for me too it is really hard to think in closed source, but that is a problem on my side, not on SAC's in this case :)
13:06<andythenorth>moi aussi
13:06<TrueBrain>one truth is not better than the other :D
13:06<andythenorth>+0.8 :P
13:06<TrueBrain>hihi :)
13:07<TrueBrain>sorry for the random Qs, I am just so happy I can ask them :)
13:07<SAC>I think that when my work reaches a wider audience I may view this differently...
13:07<andythenorth>I really like seeing my sprites appear in other sets
13:07<andythenorth>and knowing that my grfs might live on beyond me being interested in them
13:08<TrueBrain>to some more interesting topic (for me, I am a webdesigner :P): you stated that you wanted to be able to delete your older grfs;now there is a bit of confusion about what you mean exactly, so let me put it bluntly:
13:08<TrueBrain>1) you want to remove older grfs and break older savegames
13:08<TrueBrain>2) you want to avoid people to download your grf for new games
13:08<TrueBrain>(for which ever reasons they may come)
13:09<TrueBrain>which applies? :D
13:09<SAC>1. Now that I understand how the content service works, I know better
13:09<SAC>2. I'm addressing this entire BaNaNaS issue in my upcoming response...
13:09<TrueBrain>basically, 2 is fixable
13:10<TrueBrain>I can add a button for it, not a big deal
13:10<TrueBrain>1) is directly against the philosophy we base OpenTTD on
13:10<SAC>My position is that the BaNaNaS is the best suited place for a centralized download location...
13:10<TrueBrain>not a bad thing if it would collide, but interesting for me :)
13:10<TrueBrain>I am happy to hear that
13:10<SAC>Both for ingame downloads and direct downloads
13:11<TrueBrain>I guess my only question would be: what do we need to change for you to upload on it?
13:11<TrueBrain>and/or, would there be any need to extend it in the way Dave suggested
13:11<SAC>I think I can address this better in a reply to that thread... :)
13:11<TrueBrain>fair enough
13:11<TrueBrain>I WANT ANSWERS! :P
13:12<SAC>You'll get answers...
13:12<TrueBrain>(FYI, I am not a serious person; it takes me effort to refrain myself from joking and torlling :P)
13:12<SAC>Andy? Still here?
13:13<SAC>We need to clear up that whole incident in the past! Once and for all! From my point of view I believe it was a misunderstanding...
13:13<andythenorth>TrueBrain: which bit of the "bananas doesn't have a web interface" do I miss?
13:13<andythenorth>I see a web interface, just a bad one :P
13:13<andythenorth>SAC: it was a language issue
13:14<andythenorth>and then it was compounded because idiots jumped into the thread
13:14<SAC>And I could most certainly have responded in a way better manner!
13:14<andythenorth>it would have gone away on its own via rational discussion
13:14<TrueBrain>awh, look at you two, being cute and all
13:14<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you stand need to talk :P
13:14<andythenorth>today has been cuddly TrueBrain
13:15<TrueBrain>now you two give eachother a hug, and lets continue onwards :)
13:15<SAC>Absolutely, but to be brutally honest Andy, what upset you back then? And what could I have done better?
13:15*andythenorth is a bit on the spectrum and doesn't do physical touching :P
13:15<andythenorth>SAC: credit the grfs you lifted stuff from, be clear you weren't going to release the graphics
13:16<andythenorth>beyond that, the drama was added by other people, who inflated it incorrectly into all kinds of wrong
13:16<SAC>Okey Thanks! I apologize for that - although I need to point out I wasn't going to use any of it other than just showing George something
13:16<andythenorth>stuff (not from you) like (paraphrase) "all this licensing stuff is just crap" basically completely devalues things like GPL
13:17<SAC>But I could indeed have checked the original author rather then requesting others to do it!
13:17<andythenorth>I want to be very open, you want to be very closed, both are based on clear licensing and attribution
13:18<SAC>Well, I do apologize though...
13:18<andythenorth>thanks, I'm sorry it got heated
13:18*TrueBrain brings the flowers
13:18<SAC>Yeah, but as you said, the ones interfering didn't help out
13:18<SAC>On the contrary...
13:18<andythenorth>they never do, and it's usually the same people
13:19<andythenorth>and they are not people who make things
13:19<SAC>Very true... soo very true
13:19<TrueBrain>maybe a question without answer: what can we (as moderators?) do to prevent these situations where others inflict?
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13:19<andythenorth>not sure yet
13:19<TrueBrain>on the internet, everyone knows better; but sure it should be possible to form a culture to prevent it?
13:19<SAC>TrueBrain, I'm addressing this too! I think we need to have a similar approach on all sides...
13:19<andythenorth>there is one mod who sadly inflames as much as helps :(
13:20<TrueBrain>and andythenorth, BaNaNaS does have a frontpage, albeit terrible
13:20<andythenorth>and page per content type
13:20<TrueBrain>it used to be purely view, it had to be extended to allow download
13:20<andythenorth>I tried improving it, but no dev environment :P
13:20<TrueBrain>it went from just showing what happened in a system, to a functional site .. terrible
13:21<SAC>Not to sound negative towards TT-forums, but I think admins, mods and devs needs to be more active in terms of preventing people from attacking each others
13:21<TrueBrain>and I am to blame in that, I never took much interest in improving it
13:21<TrueBrain>SAC: I 100% agree with you
13:21<TrueBrain>but it is hard, and mostly boring
13:21<andythenorth>the lego forum I hang out on is much better for that, (has to be as kids use it). No backseat driving, no swearing, no arguments, no trolls
13:21-!-blathijs [] has joined #openttd
13:21<TrueBrain>the cultural aspect also plays: what is a troll for you, might be normal for me
13:21<andythenorth>brb, poo incident
13:22<TrueBrain>I just love andythenorth and his babies :P
13:22<SAC>And to be honest, I feel that there is a bunch of people over there who have somehow gained a bit more freedom in doing so than others - which is really bad...
13:22<TrueBrain>hehe; yes
13:22<TrueBrain>but moderation is not a black and white thing
13:22<TrueBrain>sometimes you also need to give a bit to allow conversations to continue
13:23<TrueBrain>silly example maybe, but "the thread" of this weekend, was said to be doomed and end in a flamewar
13:23<TrueBrain>now look at us, being all civalised and all
13:23<@Terkhen>I don't have much to add to your discussion but I just want to say I'm quite happy that it is happening :)
13:23<TrueBrain>in general, moderation is hard .. its easy for small communities
13:23<TrueBrain>but as things grow
13:23<andythenorth>resolved (smelt of yoghurt)
13:23<TrueBrain> .....
13:24<SAC>And for what it's worth, also in here we need to respect others... I may not ba active here, but I've been updated from time to time... ;p Just saying...
13:24<TrueBrain>which also leaves me in a very ... double state. On one hand I think simuscape is a good thing, for people who are serious to 'hide' from the rest
13:24<andythenorth>what is trolling in some places is standard behaviour in open source dev communities (the "tl;dr" type of approach)
13:24<TrueBrain>like developers do on IRC
13:24<TrueBrain>on the other hand ... its sad that it is required
13:25<andythenorth>it is good that it exists; it is bad that some people feel driven there
13:25<TrueBrain>SAC: spies are everywhere :D (I have played too much EVE Online)
13:25<TrueBrain>keep trying
13:25<TrueBrain>all joking aside, the climate has to shift
13:26<TrueBrain>I often don't reply to threads, as people will drop over me like a banana
13:26<andythenorth>stuff like 'please search' and "don't double post" is valid community management
13:26*andythenorth feels absolutely no guilt for bullying the BROS 'team'
13:27<SAC>And for me personally I'd like to address people who has problems with me - simply to sort things out once and for all...
13:27<SAC>So Terkhen...
13:27*andythenorth however also found a very bad thread in 'off-topic' about BROS, and was pretty disgusted by it
13:27<TrueBrain>I think that is a very valid and noble quest
13:27<SAC>Bring it on...
13:28<TrueBrain>what made you turn around lke this? (sorry if it is a in-the-face question, but agian: I am a curious person)
13:28<SAC>Asking me?
13:28<NGC3982>this is giving me a serious headache
13:28<TrueBrain>to explain
13:28<TrueBrain>it seemed you were driving away from tt-forums
13:28<NGC3982>utorrent simply doesnt write from cache to disc
13:28<TrueBrain>and now you drive back here
13:28<NGC3982>and it makes me crazy :(
13:28<TrueBrain>why? Or better: how can we get others to do the same?
13:29<TrueBrain>NGC3982: sstt now :P
13:29<SAC>I never left TT-forums. I only moved my work...
13:29<TrueBrain>as I noticed :D (for the positive)
13:29<andythenorth>SAC you are your work :P
13:29<NGC3982>TrueBrain: sst?
13:29<TrueBrain>okay, maybe I should put it differently, as I understand the question is vague at best
13:29<SAC>But I'm seriously tired of all the arguings over and over again...
13:30<TrueBrain>take a person like ... hmm, the name with an L?
13:30<TrueBrain>(sorry, I am terrible at names :()
13:30<andythenorth>this thread is disgusting
13:30<TrueBrain>how can we as community make him feel welcome
13:30<andythenorth>I found it yesterday
13:30<SAC>...and that they never seems to be addressed properly so we can solve them
13:30<andythenorth>^ found that via Simuscape
13:30<TrueBrain>SAC: seriously, I started this conversation with it, but this highroad you take, I have a lot of respect for you taking it
13:30<andythenorth>If I'd found it earlier I would have back-seat moderated
13:30<TrueBrain>it takes balls (excuse my french), and shows character
13:30<SAC>Andythenorth, I dislike it too
13:31<andythenorth>I can disambiguate and negotiate between two groups of people who make things: one 'open' and one 'closed'
13:31<SAC>I wouldn't say that TrueBrain... We're all here for the same purpose, but if we want our community to survive and develop further, we need to find a solution
13:31<andythenorth>but that thread is full of idiots
13:32<TrueBrain>SAC: take the compliment ffs :P :D
13:32<TrueBrain>but yes, you are very correct
13:32<SAC>Sure... Okey... :)
13:32<andythenorth>the idiots have conflated 'development focussed communities often have robust discourse' with 'it is ok to be a dickhead'
13:33<TrueBrain>is part of the problem that people have no space they can indicate they feel being wrong-done?
13:33<@Terkhen>SAC: if you are asking me if I have any problems with you... I only truly followed this weekend discussion as I felt that it affected the openttd team as a whole, and I can see that it is now going through the right path
13:33<andythenorth>if only MB would join us here too ;)
13:33<@Terkhen>so as I said I can't add much to the discussion :P
13:33<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I can only hope he would be as open as we all now try to be
13:34<SAC>I was asking you Terkhen based on what I've seen you saying in this chat... Not to argue, but to solve... :)
13:34<SAC>I am far from perfect, but one can only learn and improve if given the right instruments - and constructive critisism
13:35<SAC>above all
13:35<@Terkhen>ok :)
13:35<SAC>brb... need to visit the bathroom... :)
13:37<TrueBrain> I think a problem was that in "the thread" one misunderstanding above the other was stacked, to create a lot of confusion and weirdness; but that is now all water on the bridge as far as I care/consider :)
13:37*andythenorth has replied to that insane thread
13:37<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you know Hyronymus is a moderator?
13:37<TrueBrain>well aware; why?
13:37<andythenorth>and yet I think there would be a statistically valid correlation between threads he is moderating, and drama
13:37<andythenorth>guess I should talk to orudge
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13:38<TrueBrain>don't be quick to judge: he is sent (by us mostly) to threads we think are out of control
13:38<andythenorth>I have been slow to judge
13:38<TrueBrain>he, to me, is always the one that is more calm then we are :P
13:38<andythenorth>I have formed my opinion on results :P
13:38<andythenorth>also correlation may not be causation
13:38<SAC>Good point in that thread Andythenorth... I totally agree
13:38<andythenorth>firemen are always present at fires :P
13:38<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I was writing those words! Dammit :P
13:38<TrueBrain>but that is what I mean, yes
13:39<andythenorth>when I was small, I thought firemen came to light fires. Fire engines terrified me
13:39<TrueBrain>when I am about to inflame on someone, I PM Hyro if he can take a look
13:39<TrueBrain>he mostly replies very calm: nothing going on, you overreacted (in kind words)
13:40<TrueBrain>basically what you just said in my mind: a moderator is always in a thread with drama
13:40<TrueBrain>which indeed is: a firemen is always present at fires :)
13:40<andythenorth>valid inductive reasoning: firemen start fires
13:40<TrueBrain>causality is a tricky thing :P
13:40<TrueBrain>but then again, I rarely have any real interest in what goes on on the forums outside the constructive replies
13:40<TrueBrain>I stop reading threads very very quickly
13:41<@Terkhen>hmm... that thread is quite sad indeed
13:41<SAC>Well, I need to leave you - for now - so I can continue to write my response... :) Thanks for being brutally honest with me... :)
13:41<andythenorth>bye SAC
13:41<TrueBrain>and tnx for joining
13:41<andythenorth>come back
13:41<@Terkhen>see you SAC
13:41<SAC>I will!
13:41<andythenorth>dialogue is constructive
13:41<TrueBrain>indeed, come back (under your own name etc)
13:41<SAC>It is!
13:41<SAC>SAC I mean...
13:41<NGC3982>< TrueBrain> causality is a tricky thing
13:41<TrueBrain>when people talk, the world is not as bad as it appears :D
13:41<SAC>I may need to create an account possibly
13:42<TrueBrain>please do
13:42<NGC3982>of course it isnt. its just like birds and feathers
13:42<NGC3982>no pun intended.
13:42<SAC>Cya later! :)
13:43*NGC3982 paul valery causality quotes doesnt come trough
13:43<TrueBrain>and sorry NGC3982, but we were talking stuff, and you came blabbing random stuff in between :P That is why I said: ssttt
13:43<TrueBrain>I know this channel is rarely ontopic, but we needed it now :D
13:43<NGC3982>TrueBrain: ah, you mean: "shh". ssttt is a telescope, afaik.
13:43<TrueBrain>ssttt is dutch
13:43<TrueBrain>stt even
13:43-!-SAC [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
13:43<NGC3982>for shushing?
13:43<@Terkhen>yes, sometimes on-topic must be enforced :P
13:43<NGC3982>man, how many lips do you guys have.
13:43*NGC3982 is great on off-topics.
13:44<TrueBrain>femals 4, why?
13:44<NGC3982>TrueBrain: well, i didnt get it. sorry for disturbing something that felt rather serious while scrolling up now.
13:44<TrueBrain>NGC3982: its fine, I just wanted to say sorry for doing that like that
13:45<TrueBrain>I just needed you to shutup about random unrelated events :D
13:45<TrueBrain>its rare, I know :D
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24339 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt polish.txt unfinished/urdu.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: greek - 5 changes by kyrm
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by xaxa
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: urdu - 29 changes by yasirniazkhan
13:45<NGC3982>the thing is, this channel is the most serious channel (besides #QED and stuff).
13:45<andythenorth>NGC3982: if you're feeling overly-serious, try #tycoon
13:45<NGC3982>a part of me wishes to break that with lame english and farts
13:46<andythenorth>#tycoon is, afaict, bollocks
13:46<NGC3982>a part of me also wishes i was one of you.
13:46<NGC3982>andythenorth: oh, jeez
13:46<TrueBrain>owh, the days this channel was 90% OpenTTD
13:46<TrueBrain>I do miss those :P
13:46<TrueBrain>then again, we only had 30 people in those days
13:46<andythenorth>TrueBrain: this channel is 90% me now
13:46*NGC3982 feels responsible
13:46<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it is; for a while it had been 90% nothing
13:46<TrueBrain>which was even more boring
13:47<andythenorth>Terkhen: so yes that thread is very stupid. And it irritates me.
13:47<andythenorth>reading between the lines at Simuscape, the forums are now seen as 'dominated by openttd'
13:47<andythenorth>and so the attitude is seen as 'the one of the openttd developers'
13:47<TrueBrain>I wish that was true; would be so much better :P
13:48<andythenorth>it's a perception in some quarters :P
13:48<andythenorth>and when people who have nothing to do with openttd act like fuckwits
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13:48<TrueBrain>I can't get a decent conversation going on the forums without some troll
13:48<andythenorth>it's seen as "ottd-like behaviour"
13:48<Wolf01>evenink o/
13:48<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
13:48<NGC3982>im sorry, but "ottd-like behaviour" is actually a phrase i use sometimes
13:48<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'm also afraid of posting in some debates just because I have a "OpenTTD developer" below my name
13:48<TrueBrain>try playing Minecraft on public servers
13:49<andythenorth>ho I can imagine
13:49<TrueBrain>Terkhen: I often solve that by starting: Personally, .....
13:49<NGC3982>when describing what kind of people who built this monster of code and logic.
13:49<andythenorth>TrueBrain: basically YT, but with bricks?
13:49<TrueBrain>andythenorth: haha, yes
13:49<andythenorth>it's great
13:49<@Terkhen>some opinions that could be considered "normal" will be flamed if they come from what they perceive as an authority figure
13:49<andythenorth>YT and minecraft public servers means we know where all the idiots are and what they're doing
13:50<@Terkhen>but I hardly consider myself that wrt the community itself
13:50<TrueBrain>Terkhen: I fully understand your problem :)
13:50<TrueBrain>I think all developers have it, one way or the other
13:50<TrueBrain>you don't always want to reply with authority, as you don't always know
13:50*andythenorth has deliberately avoiding gaining any kind of authority for that reason
13:50<TrueBrain>yet any reply you make iwll be received as authority
13:51*NGC3982 normally presents the openttd community as a pair of asberger savant non-working retards, and still make it sounds fantasticly fabulous.
13:51<andythenorth>having commit rights to nml terrifies me quite enough :P
13:51<andythenorth>NGC3982: approximately correct
13:51<NGC3982>i find some stuff you make amazing
13:51<NGC3982>like, the language
13:51<NGC3982>i monitored some dutch guy having a discussion in industrial italian
13:52<NGC3982>and here i am trying to look cool becuase i can say like four words in swahili.
13:53<andythenorth>so it troubles me
13:53<NGC3982>or PMs (not going to hilight and get ultra-flamed this time) ability to make fantastic contributions to a community like this, and still be awesome-pancake at astronomy.
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13:53<andythenorth>the attitudes that make open source work - robust discussion etc - are being confused with being a twat
13:53<@Terkhen>to mention an example of a discussion that happens a lot; I honestly think that GPL is the best way to go for community projects, but enforcing it (or any other license) hurts the community as other people can and will see things in a different light, and they should be allowed to contribute in the way they see fit
13:53<andythenorth>and it hasn't been shut down enough
13:54<NGC3982>andythenorth: well. most people on irc talk like me. as in: HI THERE MISTAR ANDEE :DDDD?????!!!one.
13:54<andythenorth>NGC3982: I don't go on most of irc :P
13:54<@Terkhen>but if I, as an openttd developer, mention that in a thread, it will be seen as an attempt to enforce something
13:54<TrueBrain>Terkhen: yup; that is why we allow all licenses
13:54<TrueBrain>dispite me not liking it :D
13:54<Xaroth>NGC3982: most of IRC people deserve to be shot for that :P
13:54<NGC3982>andythenorth: discussing as a calculator makes enormous effort on the projekt, but maybe not as much as a "first thing you react to when someone talks to you".
13:54<TrueBrain>Terkhen: not if you describe it that way
13:54<TrueBrain>that is, if they would, it is their problem
13:55<@Terkhen>TrueBrain: yes, but some people will use such a comment to add to the fire :)
13:55<TrueBrain>you, even as developer, are entitled to your opinion; as long as you are open minded enough to listen to others
13:55<andythenorth>NGC3982: do you hang out in many development channels? Like #python or #php or #mysql or such? :)
13:55<TrueBrain>sadly, many of my statements over the years have been (heavily) abused in one way or the other
13:55<NGC3982>andythenorth: absolutely not.
13:55<TrueBrain>often by cutting context, or even words
13:55<andythenorth>NGC3982: pretty similar to here ;)
13:55<TrueBrain>I have to admit, it made me post less
13:55<TrueBrain>so .... yes .. I feel your pain :)
13:55*andythenorth has not had that problem at all, ever
13:56<TrueBrain>also, that made me change my posts to: Personally, ....
13:56<TrueBrain>it did get less by then
13:56<NGC3982>andythenorth: my fifteen years with irc reeks with complete language poop.
13:56<TrueBrain>on a totally non-related note: I am in this community 8 years and 3 months now
13:56*andythenorth sometimes uses 'imho', which is completely lame and weak
13:57<NGC3982>andythenorth: since im brought up with it that way. i almost never used it as a serious development tool, but more to hang out with hipsters and stuff.
13:57<NGC3982>at least, im not in the 'lol' generation.
13:57<Xaroth>TrueBrain: furniture :)
13:57<andythenorth>also I should pay more attention, my two year old is emptying the bath onto the floor with a bucket
13:57<NGC3982>andythenorth: neat.
13:57<TrueBrain>pay attention to your children ffs
13:57<@Terkhen>TrueBrain: I feel old just because I have been here already for 4 years :P
13:57<andythenorth>neglect makes them stronger
13:57<TrueBrain>and .. calling cival services
13:57<andythenorth>the problem is when the water reaches my laptop
13:58<NGC3982>andythenorth: squash two birds in one go. have your son learn how a pirate lives while contributing to the community (by not caring and write some nml).
13:58<TrueBrain>andythenorth: what is your address?
13:58<TrueBrain>I need to know it to .... send you ... a postcard
13:58<TrueBrain>I think
13:58<TrueBrain>:P :D
13:58<NGC3982>as a kid, i remember filling daddy's car seat with flower pot dirt i found.
13:59<NGC3982>t'waz neat, i thought id grow a new car inside the car.
13:59<andythenorth>while we're here, I can't make up my mind about MB
13:59<andythenorth>mostly I like MB, he's witty in a way that others seem to miss
13:59<NGC3982>Mario Brothers?
13:59<andythenorth>but he was very badly behaved about bananas
14:00<andythenorth>I would say water under the bridge, but it will happen again
14:00<andythenorth>over some other issue
14:01<TrueBrain>for his last .... defaming action, I kinda want an apoligy from him; you can do what ever you want in a community, but when you defame a corp in a legal takedown, you get on my bad side ... which is rather hard to get on tbfh
14:01*NGC3982 has use of his gigabit for the first time.
14:02<TrueBrain>but people keep telling me he was most likely not aware that his actions were in fact legal actions
14:02<andythenorth>TrueBrain: in that case you have said the last word on it for me; he should apologise
14:02<andythenorth>to not apologise shows a lack of decent respect for community norms
14:02<NGC3982>30MB/s sounds pretty reasonal for a normal USB2 external drive, right?
14:02<TrueBrain>that he already showed by the assumption we would not process his claim
14:03<andythenorth>well he did bad, but could make it better by apologising
14:03<TrueBrain>I think he of all people has the most to do in regards of attitude change
14:03<andythenorth>that is what we teach children anyway
14:03<TrueBrain>he seems hardwired to assume we always mean bad; and I am sure we have our history to proof him that
14:03<TrueBrain>but like SAC says: lets leave that behind us, and continue fresh
14:04<andythenorth>tomorrow is another day
14:05<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I say that we should concentrate on the current problem and take care of any future ones when they happen (taking into account what happened before, of course ;) )
14:05<andythenorth>more pressingly, how do I clean the floor? :P
14:06<andythenorth>tis mostly water
14:06<andythenorth>should be fine to lick
14:06<TrueBrain>use your children
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14:09<FLHerne>Does anyone here get Blender?
14:09<FLHerne>I've been trying to model Class 60s, but the interface is limitlessly baffling :-(
14:10<@Terkhen>nope, I opened it once and closed it after a minute
14:11<andythenorth>so the water was going through the floor and running out of the light fitting in the room below :P
14:11*andythenorth has removed the child from the bath
14:11<@Terkhen>I hope that more people learn blender though, it seems that we need more 32bpp sprites :)
14:11<andythenorth>don't want to test the RCD trip :P
14:13<FLHerne>I'm trying to, but it's a pain. Kpovmodeler had a much nicer interface, but doesn't exist anymore :-(
14:13*andythenorth liked Cinema4D :P
14:13<andythenorth>a long time ago. Not free.
14:14<TrueBrain>andythenorth: children before IRC
14:14<TrueBrain>stop forgetting that
14:14<andythenorth>he's watching YT anyway
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14:17<frosch123>is the air clear? can i start flaming again?
14:17<andythenorth>no we are being nice for the next 3 months
14:17<frosch123> <- why are people using so stupid tags? it makes me feel working on that feature is totally useless
14:18<andythenorth>which are stupid?
14:18<@Terkhen>"heightmap" heh
14:18<frosch123>half of the tags are author names
14:18<andythenorth>of course ;)
14:19<frosch123>if searching for an author is a useful thing, we could just add that to the search algorithm
14:19<frosch123>but, putting it into the tags is silly
14:19<andythenorth>union of all grfs I have my name on ;)
14:19<@Terkhen>frosch123: it's simpler to add the tag than to write a feature request :)
14:19<andythenorth>tagging is open and messy
14:19<andythenorth>and lets you identify categories you wish you'd thought of
14:19<andythenorth>categories-in-advance is mostly a bunfight that ends up wrong whoever wins
14:20-!-Xaroth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:20<andythenorth>so be happy when tagging fails, because you probably won :)
14:20<andythenorth>[by not wasting time devising taxonomies nobody likes or uses correctly] :P
14:21<TrueBrain>frosch123: tags are the most worst function I added to any OpenTTD service :P
14:21<andythenorth>try harder :P
14:21<TrueBrain>I still feel dirty for doing
14:21<andythenorth>if that's the worst you've done
14:21<andythenorth>rating would be worse
14:21<TrueBrain>it is so heavily abused, it is ... ugh
14:21<TrueBrain>we really need a good review system for BaNaNaS
14:22<@Terkhen>TrueBrain: with regard to the original discussion for improving bananas... some linux distributions ask you to install a package that keeps track of what you install
14:22<frosch123>Terkhen: i always answer "no" to that :p
14:22<@Terkhen>we could make OpenTTD ask you for permission for sending information about what you use in your games
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14:22<andythenorth>Terkhen: +1
14:22<andythenorth>+ lots
14:22<andythenorth>screw the supposed privacy violations
14:22<TrueBrain>its a posibility, but ... its tricky
14:23<@Terkhen>andythenorth: of course, it would not give any personal information
14:23<@Terkhen>just: content x was used in y games
14:23<frosch123>well, the difference is: people can download all content, but they cannot add everything to a single game
14:23<@Terkhen>but indeed, tricky :)
14:23<andythenorth>ET phone home
14:23<TrueBrain>andythenorth: that is easily coverable by good statements and open source
14:23<TrueBrain>not a real issue I expect
14:23<TrueBrain>as long as we ask about it
14:24<andythenorth>we wrote an extensive tracking framework for flash games when I was making them
14:24<@Terkhen>yes, I thought of it as a solution to the "download is not a good measure" problem
14:24<@Terkhen>just a random idea :)
14:24<andythenorth>no sensitive personal data, just play information
14:24<@Terkhen>frosch123: and I answer yes usually :P
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14:24<TrueBrain>I like my idea more and more, about having profiles on the web
14:24<TrueBrain>where you can select grfs
14:24<TrueBrain>make groups
14:24<TrueBrain>start games with it
14:24<TrueBrain>publish them
14:24<@Terkhen>ooh, a social network? :P
14:25<@Terkhen>just put the game in steam or desura while you are at it :D
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14:26<andythenorth>TrueBrain: leave out comments etc :P
14:26<andythenorth>we're not making YT
14:26<@Terkhen>yes, please, absolutely no comments whatsoever
14:26<@Terkhen>just a link to the forum thread should suffice
14:27<andythenorth>also no personal messaging etc - anti-grooming applies, we have kids playing
14:28<@Terkhen>agreed, any kind of messaging leads to the need of moderation
14:28<@Terkhen>and we don't need or want that :)
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14:37<TrueBrain>omg, he used BaNaNaS website as frontend ... omg .. that explains so much; the horror!
14:37<TrueBrain>I wouldn't even want to do that
14:37<TrueBrain>its terrible for that
14:37<TrueBrain>in al possible ways
14:37<andythenorth>yup :)
14:37<andythenorth>that's why I was going to fix it
14:38<TrueBrain>its silly how easy you can miss such information, but ... omg :P
14:38<TrueBrain>I didn't know :D
14:38<andythenorth>also SAC is she
14:38<andythenorth>more information
14:38<TrueBrain>argh, people keep telling me, and I keep forgetting
14:38<TrueBrain>I consider every person on internet a he
14:38<TrueBrain>not discrimanting between any of them
14:38<TrueBrain>its easier
14:38<TrueBrain>I am lazy
14:38<TrueBrain>its not meant as disrespect, FYI :D
14:39*andythenorth wants to mockup bananas templates, but instead has work to do
14:39<andythenorth>applying twitter bootstrap ui to a plone app
14:39<andythenorth>or replying to emails :P
14:39<TrueBrain>or making me an image
14:39<andythenorth>emails can wait :P
14:40<andythenorth>what's the test url?
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14:40<andythenorth>I misplaced my history :P
14:40<TrueBrain>its a CSS image
14:40<andythenorth>is it checked in?
14:41<TrueBrain>its a new site
14:41<TrueBrain>so you have to pick it off the website :D
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14:48<TrueBrain>made a topic about BaNaNaS Frontend and review
14:48<andythenorth>TrueBrain: lose the gradients, simpler,
14:48<andythenorth>or with box-shadow inset
14:48<andythenorth>I'd lose the main nav gradient as well tbh
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14:49<TrueBrain>I like _2 more
14:49<TrueBrain>and yes, I agree
14:49<TrueBrain>can you cook me 2 pngs for that? :D
14:50<andythenorth>just css
14:50<TrueBrain>give me the CSS properties then :P :D
14:50<andythenorth>generally I avoid images where possible, modern css covers so much
14:51<NataS>andythenorth, you convinced me to play Dwarf Fortress again.
14:51<andythenorth>I have never played it. I'm tempted :P
14:51<NataS>you should
14:51<NataS>it's fun
14:52<NataS>(Translator's note: Fun means losing)
14:52<andythenorth>you need to change the font color for navbar <a> selected as well
14:53<andythenorth>box-shadow is the best css attr in years :P
14:53<andythenorth>no ie7 or 8 support afaik
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14:53<TrueBrain>yeah ... is CSS2 atm
14:53<TrueBrain>but .. you know ... ancient history :D
14:55<TrueBrain>which colour to give the top bar then ?
14:55<andythenorth>I'll eat then tweak ;)
14:56<@Terkhen>that looks nice :)
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15:00<TrueBrain>andythenorth: updated www-test with some basics of what you gave me
15:00<TrueBrain>I think it can be done more pretty :D
15:02<andythenorth>maybe we use the orange as over state
15:02*andythenorth -> firebug
15:04<andythenorth>double nav is not easy for this problem :)
15:04<TrueBrain>life aint easy :P
15:05<frosch123>make the subsection one in ottd green instead :p
15:05<frosch123>might look horrible though :)
15:05<andythenorth>green and orange are contrasting colours
15:05<andythenorth>no designer would use them adjacent :D
15:05<andythenorth>except the designer of ottd logo ;)
15:05<frosch123>i like the ottd orange and green :)
15:08<andythenorth>flat colour is better than gradients for these down states
15:09<frosch123>the orange is too dark :)
15:09<andythenorth>prize for the first one to admit that green and orange looks silly
15:09<TrueBrain>isnt that a lot: in your face? :D
15:09<TrueBrain>softer colours might help?
15:09*andythenorth will present v4 shortly
15:09<frosch123>yes, too edgy comared to the rest
15:09<andythenorth>I presented that as a "no we don't like that" ;)
15:11<andythenorth>v4 also not good
15:11<frosch123>i think the font in the navbar has too much weight (not sure about the term)
15:11<frosch123> <- a lot easier readable
15:12<andythenorth>it might be better to invert font colour for secondary nav
15:13<frosch123>oh, silly me... it's the same font, it's just andy's browser which displays it so ugly
15:13<TrueBrain>last is very nice
15:13<andythenorth>ugly? :P
15:13<andythenorth>that's how that font looks :P
15:13<TrueBrain>owh, thatone
15:13<TrueBrain>oops :D
15:14<TrueBrain>MISCOMMUNICATION! Lets make a thread ... *troll*
15:14<andythenorth>frosch123: install trebuchet
15:14<frosch123>TrueBrain: use numbers
15:14<andythenorth>frosch123: you probably see Arial?
15:14<TrueBrain>frosch123: done
15:14<andythenorth>I don't really like Trebuchet, it's sharp, and the letter shapes can be hard to read
15:14<frosch123>no idea, but it is a light sansserif font
15:19*andythenorth ponders orange main nav
15:20<andythenorth>maybe not
15:20<TrueBrain>owh, too many seriousness on a day makes me go bananas ... I guess I should log off the forums for today, before it gets any worse
15:21<andythenorth>I see
15:21<frosch123>what do you blame on me?
15:21<NGC3982>please sweden
15:21<TrueBrain>[21:14] <TrueBrain> MISCOMMUNICATION! Lets make a thread ... *troll*
15:21<TrueBrain>[21:14] <frosch123> TrueBrain: use numbers
15:21<NGC3982>win this
15:21<NGC3982>win something, dammit.
15:21<frosch123>oh, i guess you should quickly delete your post :p
15:21<andythenorth>why 5493?
15:23<TrueBrain>frosch123: I have 7 days, not? :D
15:23<frosch123>not if someone replies, of it you use mod powers
15:23<frosch123>s/of it/or unless/
15:24-!-telanus [] has left #openttd [QUIT :Leaving.]
15:24<frosch123>TrueBrain: seriously, that post makes you look silly
15:24<frosch123>maybe be as well :p
15:25<TrueBrain>owh, you guys have to lighten up a bit
15:25<TrueBrain>just reply something silly
15:25<TrueBrain>and then we both look silly
15:25<TrueBrain>see, that is a correct reply :)
15:25<frosch123>TrueBrain: i hate the offtopic section
15:26<andythenorth>also so v5 of those screenshots?
15:26*andythenorth has refreshed firebug so lost it :P
15:27<frosch123>though i think i found an appropiate troll reply
15:27-!-Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
15:27<TrueBrain>perfect reply frosch123, thank you :D
15:29<SpComb>you clearly need to find some way to extend to OpenTTD GPL to loaded newgrfs
15:29<TrueBrain>SpComb: we can modify it upon loading :P
15:29<TrueBrain>andythenorth: v5, yes
15:30<SpComb>loaded GRFs that use OpenTTD-specific features are obviously a derived work of the OpenTTD GPL code, since they wouldn't be of any use without OpenTTD
15:30*SpComb read too much linux kernel module gpl stuff last week
15:30<TrueBrain>a tool neer forces the license of the file processed by said tool
15:31<TrueBrain>I completed my thread :D
15:31<andythenorth>the main nav should be lighter
15:31<andythenorth>or such
15:33<SpComb>TrueBrain: linus argued that LSM's are subject to kernel GPL since they're so integrated into kernel stuff
15:33<SpComb>TrueBrain: "function pointers don't form a GPL boundary"
15:33<TrueBrain>I disagree
15:33<andythenorth>there's a GPL FAQ on it
15:33<TrueBrain>that would make our world a lot harder, if that was true tbh
15:34<andythenorth>newgrfs are almost certainly all GPL by being combined with a GPL program
15:34<andythenorth>but meh
15:34<TrueBrain>as example, you wouldn't be able to execute VB script in OOO if it was stored in docx
15:34<TrueBrain>its incredible how much joy one can experience from posting a trollcat
15:35<TrueBrain>I have tears in my eyes
15:35*andythenorth has those kind of days :P
15:35<andythenorth>grr. these navbar images are annoying me :P
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15:38<TrueBrain>I should stop browsing through lolcats
15:39<TrueBrain>it makes me smile too much
15:39-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
15:39<SAC>Hi again... just had some quesions...
15:39<TrueBrain>shoot :)
15:39<@Terkhen>hi SAC
15:39<SAC>Hi Terkhen... :)
15:40-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:40<andythenorth>we should lose the stripes in the header, it has moire flicker
15:40<Zuu>TrueBrain: I've been having communication protocol ideas for AI <-> AI ever since you created NoAI. But now with GS and the problem on how to make AIs play with goals, there was a real motivation for it.
15:40<SAC>What can be done with BaNaNaS in terms of making it more userfriendly, (as suggested in one of those spinoffs)? Is it a technical issue and/or economical one?
15:40-!-Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
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15:41<TrueBrain>andythenorth: while at it, redesign the website? :P
15:41<andythenorth>that is the problem with tweaks :P
15:41<andythenorth>I like the site
15:41<Zuu>I and krinn had a chat on IRC about it and decided to have a go on it. :-)
15:41<TrueBrain>Zuu: and I never liked the idea, but I am impressed you guys implemented it
15:41<TrueBrain>SAC: time is an issue
15:41<andythenorth>and there's no dev environment :P
15:41<andythenorth>did I mention that? :P
15:41<TrueBrain>basically, nobody has the knowledge/time/freedom to build a replacement
15:41<TrueBrain>neither do I
15:42<TrueBrain>so it never got done
15:42<Zuu>Although krinn have made most of the low level work on the library. My role have been to test it, write documentation and try to find bugs. :-)
15:42<TrueBrain>andythenorth is the only one who ever gave it a try
15:42<SAC>I figured that too...
15:42<__ln__>please do not create Skynet
15:42<TrueBrain>failed horribly for all the obvious reasons :P
15:42<andythenorth>I can try guessing by writing django templates, but then we have to put them live to test them :P
15:42<TrueBrain>but andythenorth and I agree'd we are going to fix this, so :)
15:42<TrueBrain>the topic is not a topic like: I ask you, and we discard it ;)
15:42<TrueBrain>we will fix BaNaNaS
15:43<andythenorth>pyramid app!
15:43*andythenorth needs to learn a new python framework
15:43<SAC>I'm thinking in terms of making the BaNaNaS a "central place" for downloads... Is it possible considering the time/knowledge/freedom?
15:44<SAC>What else is required? Financial back-up?
15:44<Xaroth>andythenorth: if it's django I can assist, if it's pyramid, I can not :P
15:44<TrueBrain>basically, it has to be done; BaNaNaS is now 3.5 years old, and never really updated to new standards :P
15:44<Xaroth>i cba to learn a new framework :P
15:44<TrueBrain>SAC: lots of feedback
15:44<andythenorth>Xaroth: it's ok, I can adapt. Pyramid is not wildly differing to Django afaict
15:44<TrueBrain>often this goes wrong, and I am left by my lonely self to come up with solutions
15:44<TrueBrain>which is rather boring and dull
15:45<SAC>TrueBrain, that of course...
15:45<Zuu>TrueBrain: I can understand there is a fear that two AIs will coop up. Ideally OpenTTD would provide a API for implementing all sort of goal systems, but then you would need to patch OpenTTD to support every goal idea that someone have. SCP allows AIs to be aware of goals that are not supported by the OpenTTD core API.
15:45<TrueBrain>Zuu: I understood that, and notice it was good :D
15:45<TrueBrain>SAC: it is basically the most important thing: feedback
15:45<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I think I need the repo for the website, or a zip of images :P
15:45<SAC>I'd be interested to hear some of the other devs on this entire matter...
15:45<TrueBrain>what would you want the system to do
15:46<TrueBrain>andythenorth: did you fix my CSS already? :D :D
15:46<andythenorth>no :(
15:46<andythenorth>or we could just apply bootstrap
15:46<Xaroth>then no images for you!
15:46<Xaroth>andythenorth: <3!
15:46<TrueBrain>SAC: in regards of the climate issues, you indeed should hear from other devs
15:46<andythenorth>if we use bootstrap it will look like every other website made this year :D
15:46<frosch123>Zuu: i would love ais teaming up, then you can also team up against them
15:46<TrueBrain>as far as BaNaNaS goes, most of them only know that it works
15:46<Xaroth>andythenorth: I have a django-admin rewrite for bootstrap ready.. but tb refuses to use it
15:46-!-mal2 [] has joined #openttd
15:47<TrueBrain>(and they tell me if they don't like something etc :P)
15:47<SAC>BTW, since I'm on a mission to work out differences, I see Xaroth is here... :)
15:47<Xaroth>I'm always here, I just know when to stfu
15:48-!-jgh [] has joined #openttd
15:48<SAC>;) Still, let me know what may possibly bother you, and I'll address them and change what needs to be changed...
15:48<SpComb>working on BaNaNas and Django sounds interesting, but not going to start on it because I have too much similar work of my own to take care of
15:48<TrueBrain>I can poop out the Python part very fast, or at least, relative fast
15:49<TrueBrain>its easy, and I am good at that
15:49<TrueBrain>what I am not good at, is design, ideas, .....
15:49<TrueBrain>I need people for that
15:49<@Terkhen>SAC: for gathering the opinion of more people (devs or not) with regard to the "community climate" IMO a forum thread is a better option
15:49<andythenorth>django templates are just ${blah} right?
15:49<Xaroth>SAC: I have no personal issues with you :)
15:49<Xaroth>andythenorth: {{ }}
15:49<Xaroth>{% %}
15:49<TrueBrain>so SAC, please do post what you think BaNaNaS should do, in detail where possible :)
15:49<frosch123>SAC: i never read the off-topic and barely read the grf development forum; so the bros thread andy pointed out was also interesting for me to learn about
15:49<andythenorth>can I do {{}}
15:49<Xaroth>no need for ()
15:49<Xaroth>django will attempt to call if it's callable
15:49<andythenorth>the off-topic is a place I am not going back to
15:50<SAC>LOL I left the off-topic long ago...
15:50<andythenorth>Xaroth: I'll have to learn pyramid another time then :P
15:50<andythenorth>if we're committed to django
15:50<andythenorth>maybe I'll write a pyramid app and ship it with BANDIT
15:50<@Terkhen>SAC: with regard to the bananas changes I can and will give feedback and opinions, but as TrueBrain said, it is "TrueBrain 's thing" :P
15:50<andythenorth>for configuring the grf
15:50<TrueBrain>We are committed to Django ;)
15:51<andythenorth>"configure this grf in your browser at localhost:8700"
15:51<andythenorth>currently the BANDIT admin in is in Zope, shipping Zope with the grf is...almost the definition of overkill :P
15:52<SAC>Xaroth, okey... :) As long as we're clear...
15:52<TrueBrain>hmm, maybe I should make a nice topic explaining how our webservices work, what is required for any improvement, and where it goes 'wrong' if anything :)
15:52-!-kais58_ is now known as kais58
15:52<andythenorth>TrueBrain: would be useful, you might get more contributors too
15:52<andythenorth>currently it is...mysterious
15:52<TrueBrain>yeah; if our service system wasn't so damn complex ...
15:52<TrueBrain>there is so much shit going on ...... :D
15:53<andythenorth>you should see the diagram of our ad network
15:53<TrueBrain>OpenTTD has 15 VPSes at work for him
15:53<Xaroth>if openttd's system op wasn't so damn complex
15:53<TrueBrain>5 of them are dedicated to compiling the binaries
15:53<SAC>Thanks Terkhen for clearing that up... I annoy Truebrain instead... :)
15:53<TrueBrain>the rest to service your day-to-day services :)
15:53<@Terkhen>no problem :)
15:53<TrueBrain>2 of them are proxies, one is a gateway, 2 are 'general' (LDAP + MySQL), the rest are dedicated servies
15:54<TrueBrain>guess that shows a tiny bit with what I mean: complex :D
15:54<@Terkhen>but don't worry about asking questions
15:54<@Terkhen>bbl, time for dinner
15:54<SpComb>TrueBrain: sounds like a puppet-sized problem!
15:54<andythenorth>so I need to remake the css for v5 of the navbar
15:54<andythenorth>but the navbars are all wrong :P
15:54<frosch123>yay, at least it is already possible to edit tags
15:54<+michi_cc>SAC: Suggestion for simuscape: The FAQ button in the top row is like not visible at all, a tiny bit of contrast would do wonders there.
15:55<TrueBrain>andythenorth: FIX IT! :D
15:55<TrueBrain>on the positive side btw, because of this setup, stuff is contained .. if you break into mediawiki you do just that: break into mediawiki
15:56<frosch123>hmm, i suppose starting a third bananas thread about tag usage is not useful?
15:56<TrueBrain>no other service runs on it
15:56<TrueBrain>frosch123: integrate it witht he other
15:56<TrueBrain>as in: try to find a way to avoid the abuse
15:56<TrueBrain>I like the Category idea
15:56<TrueBrain>just make a preset of tags available
15:56<frosch123>TrueBrain: i really like to use tags instead of categories
15:56<frosch123>but, the current tags are not suitable for that
15:56<TrueBrain>then how do we control the abuse?
15:57<frosch123>i think most tags are so stupid, because it is so hard to compare with other stuff
15:57<TrueBrain>take it to a thread :D
15:57<SAC>michi_cc, yes, it's been a subject also within Simuscape, so I'm bound to change it... My view on design isn't the same as many others... :P
15:58<SpComb>TrueBrain: how do you handle distro updates/upgrades on all the different servers?
15:58<TrueBrain>not? :P
15:58<TrueBrain>all run debian
15:58<TrueBrain>so it is easy
15:58<Xaroth>debian does upgrades once every 5000 years?
15:58<TrueBrain>snapshot + update
15:58<SpComb>or do you go around and apt-get every week?
15:58<TrueBrain>every week? Hell no :P
15:59<TrueBrain>once in a while, and when I receive a CVE security notification for any of the services we run
15:59<TrueBrain>due to the setup, very few
15:59<SpComb>I run automated unattended-upgrade for squeeze-security updates
15:59<TrueBrain>I have bad experiences with them
15:59<SpComb>risk of breaking stuff is smaller than the risk of nobody being arsed to update them
16:00<TrueBrain>I run a large cluster of systems; I get notified if something important happens :D
16:00<TrueBrain>basically, openssh-server is top priority
16:00<TrueBrain>the rest is gateway'd
16:00<TrueBrain>so only nginx remains, really
16:01<SpComb>and bus-factor?
16:01<TrueBrain>you mean, the factor of me being hit by a bus?
16:01<Xaroth>or the factor of a bus being hit by you?
16:01<SpComb>how many people need to get hit by busses
16:01*SpComb is bus-factor 1.0
16:02<TrueBrain>euh, how many people do we have in the development team? :P
16:02<TrueBrain>assuming it doesn't happen at the same time
16:02<TrueBrain>I would say most part of the world
16:02<TrueBrain>sounds heavily unlikely
16:02<TrueBrain>joking outside, Rb is my primary fallback (and does it when I am unavailable)
16:02<SpComb>specifically the sysadmin and infra bits?
16:02<TrueBrain>all developers have access to the details, although most are not aware of that fact :P
16:03<SpComb>I deal with a school infra that's entirely in-house, with only voluntary student admins that change every year
16:03<TrueBrain>it is
16:03<TrueBrain>there should be a chain of bus-hit :P
16:04<TrueBrain>no, I always made sure others could also always access the systems
16:04<TrueBrain>if they can figure out what to do, is a second ofc
16:04<TrueBrain>most is somewhat documented
16:04<TrueBrain>but Rb seems to be managing fine, so I guess it is sane enough
16:04<SpComb>I tried to solve it with puppet, but it remains to be seen if it just makes the problem worse
16:05<SpComb>since now only those people able to learn and use puppet will be able to do anything :)
16:06<andythenorth>something like that, only better
16:06<andythenorth>the menus need inverted colour on the font
16:06<andythenorth>to distinguish primary / secondary nav
16:06<@Yexo><TrueBrain> all developers have access to the details, although most are not aware of that fact :P <- I think this is quite important :p
16:06<TrueBrain>andythenorth: and now show selections :D
16:07<andythenorth>TrueBrain: easy
16:07<andythenorth>dunno how
16:07<andythenorth>easy once it's done though :P
16:07<TrueBrain>Yexo: well, if you would ask in the dev channel, I am sure that within 24h you are logged in to the server; if you really wanted to :)
16:07<@Yexo>I couldn't care less, I'm happy I don't have to deal with keeping it all running
16:08<@Yexo>the only thing I find important is that enough people know where to find those details when they need to have them
16:08<@Yexo>say (however unlikely) that you and rb would dissappear at the same time
16:08<@Yexo>would be good to know if pm or someone else could still log in
16:08<frosch123>i doom the day i learned how to post news items :p
16:08<SAC>This is just an idea though, but to reflect that we're in fact one big family although having our home on different sites, would it be possible to have some smaller logos at the bottom for TT-forums, Simuscape, TT-MS Headquarters and so on...
16:09<SAC>On I mean...
16:09<+michi_cc>frosch123: CVE management isn't any better :)
16:09<SAC>Just a thought... :P
16:09<@Yexo>SAC: great post on the forum :)
16:09<SAC>Yexo , which one?
16:09<TrueBrain>SAC: do you know some fine artists to make a mockup for said logo? :D
16:10<@Yexo> <- that one most importantly
16:10<SAC>Well, our logo is already done and TT-forums already have one...
16:10<@Yexo>having such a list of logos needs carefull thought as to which sites would be included
16:10<@Yexo>tt-forums/simuscape/tt-ms/openttdcoop might be obvious choices, but there are forums for other languages besides tt-ms
16:11<TrueBrain>I would open it for all who comply with certain values
16:11<TrueBrain>an etiquette
16:11<SAC>Yexo, thanks!
16:11<@Yexo>which is problematic to judge for forums in other languages
16:11<frosch123>michi_cc: i feel lucky :)
16:11<@Yexo>what about the russian forum?
16:11<andythenorth>Yexo: can I inspire any interest in this ticket? :)
16:11<TrueBrain>trust they control theirself in it?
16:11<@Terkhen>there is a small spanish forum too :P
16:12*Sacro headscratches
16:12<Sacro>so you use NAT for IPv4, but not for ipv
16:12<Sacro>so how do I get packets out :(
16:12<SAC>I think we need to have this entire discussion with all forum representatives (?)...
16:12<@Yexo>SAC: forum representatives is different from OpenTTD developers (for
16:13<SAC>I know...
16:13<TrueBrain>Sacro: you?
16:13<+michi_cc>There's also if you start with all the language forums (and who knows if there's any chinese/japanese/whatever community out there).
16:13<TrueBrain>so, make an open invitation to all these places
16:13*andythenorth needs a large openttd logo
16:13<SpComb>Sacro: you route, which requires cooperative configuration from your upstream, which IPv4 NAT does not
16:13<TrueBrain>get them on IRC or what-ever, start a thread on some common ground
16:13<Sacro>TrueBrain: yes, I'm trying to get packets
16:13*XeryusTC slaps TrueBrain
16:13<SpComb>Sacro: unless you use DHCPv6 PD which automates it
16:14<Sacro>SpComb: hmm, I have a /64, I use NAT for lxc
16:14<XeryusTC>behave yourself in the more sensible parts of the forums!
16:14<TrueBrain>Sacro: ah; just checking you werent talking about OpenTTD :P
16:14<@Terkhen>if you start a thread I'll invite the spanish forum administrator over :)
16:14<TrueBrain>XeryusTC: why?
16:14<TrueBrain>people are too tight up
16:14<@Terkhen>bbl (for real this time)
16:14<SAC>TrueBrain get them on IRC or what-ever, start a thread on some common ground - That's a good idea...
16:14<Sacro>oh hang on, I use iptables on v4, i'm guessing iptables6 or whatever won't touch packets
16:14<XeryusTC>we´ve got offtopic for silliness
16:14<TrueBrain>XeryusTC: owh, losen up a bit
16:14<SpComb>Sacro: you're tough out of luck if that /64 is on-link, not routed via your host
16:14<XeryusTC>i dont come to the OpenTTD section to laugh at cats raping each other :P
16:14<TrueBrain>its funny
16:14<SpComb>Sacro: unless you proxy-nd or other hacks to achieve the same end result
16:14<TrueBrain>I have more cats ready :P
16:15<XeryusTC>please wait until caturday O:)
16:15<Sacro>SpComb: hm, what I want is for my ipv4 stuff to be NAT'd out via my one address
16:15<@Yexo>andythenorth: you can, although not for tonight
16:15<SpComb>Sacro: although, uh, dunno exactly what kind of magic lxc supports, I was talking more about kvm/xen
16:15<Sacro>and for my ipv6 stuff to go in/out direct, so's I can have an AAAA exeternally accessable
16:15<Sacro>I'm guessing a bridge is not the way to go
16:15<Sacro>or perhaps it is, for ipv6 only :\
16:16<SpComb>Sacro: since all the interfaces are in the same host kernel you can probably just do some trickery with them
16:16<andythenorth>ho, svg
16:17<XeryusTC>TrueBrain: also, i´m protecting you of the vengeance of orudge and Hyro ;)
16:17<Sacro>ah yes, the vengeful orudge
16:17<TrueBrain>I never had a warning before .. I am willing to take one
16:17<Sacro>TrueBrain: chortle
16:17*andythenorth needs to redesign the site
16:17<andythenorth>that's unexpected :P
16:18<TrueBrain>andythenorth: keep it simple ffs
16:18<TrueBrain>I only wanted 1 (!) new image
16:18<andythenorth>it growed :P
16:18<TrueBrain>not a golden watch with diamonds
16:18<TrueBrain>this how it always starts
16:18<andythenorth>can I haz the images please?
16:18<TrueBrain>download them
16:18<andythenorth>I tried finding them via the path
16:19<andythenorth>I get django errors :P
16:19<TrueBrain>Firebug tells you :P
16:19<TrueBrain>ffs, let me start a browser
16:19<andythenorth>ach of course
16:19<TrueBrain>I am sorry, IRC is on a secondary computer
16:19<TrueBrain>which is TERRIBLY slow
16:19<TrueBrain>so I hav eno copy/paste buffer
16:20<TrueBrain>SAC: I guess the main question is: where to start a thread about it; I guess tt-forums is neutral enough
16:21<NGC3982>i think i just created something fantastic
16:21<TrueBrain>maybe for this undertaking ask orudge if he is willing to make a temporary forum of some kind? I dunno .. I am bad at this crap, there is a reason I am in a SysOp :P
16:21<NGC3982>i logged onto my shell with my mobile phone (android + irssi connectbot)
16:21<TrueBrain>Intercooperation Forum Thread :D
16:21<NGC3982>i used screen -rd (redraw) to make the window fit the landscape mobile display nicely
16:22<NGC3982>i also log in on my htpc, but with screen -x (just imitade the latest screen rendering)
16:22<NGC3982>and change the channel on the tv to the ongoing soccer game
16:22<SAC>TrueBrain, yes or approach each forum admin personally with an e-mail and find out where they stand...
16:22<NGC3982>== mobile phone on table, ircing with keyboard.
16:22<TrueBrain>SAC: would you be willing to carry that load?
16:22<SAC>...and invite them to a chat on a specific channel...
16:22<SpComb>NGC3982: oldhat
16:22<SAC>TrueBrain, absolutely...
16:23<NGC3982>SpComb: old, surely. im just amazed over why i havent thought of this before.
16:23<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you want the orange and green? Or orange and dark grey (orange + dark grey = better)
16:23<@Alberth>TrueBrain: brilliant cat with paws on its ears :D do you have it at a larger size?
16:23<TrueBrain>andythenorth: pick one, I live with it :P
16:23<TrueBrain>enjoy yourself
16:27<SAC>From one thing to another, I'm on my way to create a linkage page on Simuscape to various "family-sites" ;), where do I ask for permission to use the logo?
16:27<Xaroth>the much discussed info@ address i'd say
16:27<TrueBrain>the logo is GPL :D
16:28<SAC>Okey... :)
16:28<TrueBrain>so we want a LICENSE File to go with it *troll*
16:28<TrueBrain>without joking, I would say, go ahead and use it, and drop an email at info@. But as I don't speak for the whole team, lets poke two others .. who were last active ....
16:29<TrueBrain>Alberth / Yexo: ? :D
16:29<TrueBrain>(and with drop an email, I mean: just email info@ saying I said it was fine to use, basically :P)
16:29<TrueBrain>the latter just for documentation purposes, for both your and my side :)
16:29<@Yexo>you have my go :)
16:29<SAC>Yes, I do it the proper way... :)
16:30<@Alberth>fine by me too
16:30<TrueBrain>so there you have it :)
16:30<SAC>Okey, thanks... :)
16:30<@Yexo>not that I have anything specific to say about the logo, but ok :)
16:30<TrueBrain>Yexo: nobody has, that is the fun part :)
16:32<NGC3982>am i off completely, or does the ukranian prople still have issues with bosniaks?
16:33<NGC3982>as a completely openttd related question, thati s.
16:33*NGC3982 becomes silent.
16:37<TrueBrain>spaces versus tabs, how nice :P
16:38<TrueBrain>many silly changes
16:39<andythenorth>It's a copy and paste from firebug, that's never going to work
16:40<andythenorth>give me a minute, I'll have to dl the original and change
16:40<TrueBrain>owh, I am already in that process, no worries
16:40<andythenorth>it's like 9 lines I've added or something
16:41*andythenorth missed some apple announcements or something
16:42<andythenorth>oh new laptop time
16:42<andythenorth>a whole extra 0.1GHZ
16:42<andythenorth>now I can run YACD
16:43<FLHerne>That's a whole 100MHz! :o
16:44<FLHerne>That would make my laptop able to run OTTD :P
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>that's three of my first laptops combined!
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>i actually played TT on that laptop :)
16:45<FLHerne>133MHz is borderline, so 200MHz+ would be about playable :D
16:45<andythenorth>hmm, I could get a 15" laptop, then I get quad core :P
16:45<FLHerne>I compiled OTTD on mine...took a while :-)
16:45<andythenorth>but then I have an enormous laptop :P
16:46<FLHerne>Good enormous, or just enormous? :P
16:46<FLHerne>So enormous but useless?
16:47<andythenorth>enormous but too big
16:53<@Alberth>reminder to self: opening a .png with gvim does not give a nice picture :p
16:56<TrueBrain>andythenorth: there, published it, with some minor changes
16:57<TrueBrain>did went back to CSS2, as I saw I could (I am a purist like that :D)
16:57<TrueBrain>but it looks nice :D Tnx!
16:58<andythenorth>TrueBrain: done and done
16:58<andythenorth>bold on the main nav helps I think
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the matrix...
16:59*FLHerne preferred the previous look :-(
16:59<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: ?
16:59<andythenorth>FLHerne: which one?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: watching visual information in text form
17:00<@Alberth>I didn't see it move :p
17:00<FLHerne>As on the current 'normal' site, as opposed to the new one on the test site
17:00<andythenorth>what do you prefer?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: early development version :)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the png doesn't move either :)
17:01<FLHerne>Flat colour is uninteresting :P
17:01<TrueBrain>I somewhat agree with you FLHerne; but it works so much easier :P
17:02<@Alberth>loading xpm in gvim is much more interesting :)
17:02<andythenorth>downloading all the files I need and rebuilding the directory structure so I can edit pngs in it is uninteresting :P
17:02<andythenorth>also - gradient stacked on top of gradient will suck
17:02<TrueBrain>andythenorth: remember I only asked to change the colour of it :P
17:02<TrueBrain>that last comment is very true
17:02<TrueBrain>that looks buttttttt ugly
17:02<FLHerne>The sharp angles on the bar things look odd with everything else rounded, too
17:02<andythenorth>I refer you to my earlier comment :P
17:03<andythenorth>"now I need to rebuild the entire website"
17:03<FLHerne>But then the whole thing will look flat and angular :-(
17:03<andythenorth>feel free to provide a patch
17:04*FLHerne hurriedly shuts up :P
17:04<andythenorth>you want to round the corners on the nav?
17:06<andythenorth>border-radius: 7px
17:06<andythenorth>you'd better set -webkit-border-radius and -moz-border-radius too :P
17:08<TrueBrain>XeryusTC: there, I made a thread in the private forum to complain about myself
17:09<TrueBrain>andythenorth: ugh; sorry, but that looks ugh
17:09<andythenorth>just responding to the crowd
17:09<andythenorth>blame the crowd :P
17:10<FLHerne>That looks a bit odd, actually :-(
17:10<FLHerne>Maybe 2-3px radius, just to take the angle off?
17:11<TrueBrain>crowd: I blame
17:11<TrueBrain>andythenorth: but if you are going to tweak, please make it scale better in the width etc :D :P
17:11<XeryusTC>TrueBrain: i should probably make a thread about your lack of professionalism and to get you removed from the dev team
17:11<FLHerne>Nice :D
17:12<andythenorth>very 1998
17:12<TrueBrain>XeryusTC: I would too if I were me
17:12<TrueBrain>wait .....
17:12<TrueBrain>FLHerne: nice? really?
17:12*FLHerne grew up with Mac OS 7 :P
17:12<TrueBrain>it looks .... too much Apple-ish
17:12<TrueBrain>a lot
17:12<TrueBrain>also a lot of other things
17:13<TrueBrain>not just this
17:13<FLHerne>Everything as RoundRects :D
17:13*TrueBrain hugs FLHerne
17:13<XeryusTC>FLHerne: i feel sorry for you
17:13*andythenorth has refreshed firebug now, so it's gone...forever
17:13<Xaroth>FLHerne: what XeryusTC said.
17:13<TrueBrain>andythenorth: smart move :D
17:13*andythenorth grew up with OS 9
17:13<andythenorth>so watched a lot of bomb icons
17:13<FLHerne>Humorous link:
17:14*FLHerne used 8.6, 9.1 and 10.4
17:14<andythenorth>there should be an updated version, where steve explains that semi-transparent menus are everywhere
17:15<FLHerne>Really basic error messages as hex were annoying :-(
17:16*andythenorth -> bed
17:16<TrueBrain>sleep well
17:16<TrueBrain>en tnx
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17:27<@Terkhen>good night
17:27<Wolf01>'night Terkhen
17:31<Wolf01>'night all
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18:26<Rubidium>SpComb: Debian gets a new release every 2-3 years, we get a new server every 2-3 years. Then we have all kinds of new experience w.r.t. how the system should be set up, so we use the newer version of Debian (we'd be at oldstable at that moment, or testing is very near being tagged stable)
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19:56<vbnm>hi, i cant run 32bpp graphics :(
19:56<vbnm>can you help me?
19:56<Supercheese>What version of OTTD?
19:56<Rubidium>what graphics are you trying precisely?
19:56<Supercheese>You'll need to find an appropriate .grf, what graphics are ya trying for?
19:57<vbnm>i know i cant run packs of 32bpp
19:57<Supercheese>jinx, lol
19:57<vbnm>i have 32bpp 2cc trains
19:57<vbnm>but it doesnt work
19:57<Supercheese>That's the easiest one to get started
19:57<Supercheese>oh, hmm
19:57<vbnm>when i load it i have no engies and no pax wagons
19:57<Rubidium>what year does your game start?
19:58<vbnm>i tried 2020 but wil try earlier
19:59<Rubidium>only a few diesel and electric trains seem to have been 32bpp graphics with that
19:59<vbnm>WOWOW it works!!!!
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20:01<Rubidium>have fun with them
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20:13<vbnm>why cars and trains in openttd are not moving smoothly?
20:13<vbnm>they have some lags
20:14<Supercheese>A variety of factors, depending on how fast your machine is, how many vehicles are on screen, etc.
20:14<Supercheese>Map size too
20:15<vbnm>it happens also on singleplayer 64x64 with one train
20:15<vbnm>it is connected with game ingine i think
20:15<Supercheese>blitter issue perhaps
20:16<Supercheese>I'm not well versed on that; I'll defer to someone else who knows it better
20:17<vbnm>i have this in conf file: blitter = "32bpp-simple"
20:22<+glx>try 32bpp-optimized
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20:31<vbnm>i mean these vehicles seems to no move pixel-by-pixel
20:31<vbnm>even with 32bpp-simple
20:31<vbnm>even with blitter= (nothing)
20:32<vbnm>especially in they move in N,S,E,W directions
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22:39<NataS> man i am so conflicted about this game/
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23:57<ganesh>i want to provide tamil translation for OpenTTD!
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 12 00:00:17 2012