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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-31

---Logopened Fri Aug 31 00:00:04 2012
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03:25<@Terkhen>good morning
03:44<@planetmaker>hm, we really need to change the default from LAN to internet for multiplayer
03:45<@planetmaker>good morning :-)
04:02<Muxy>planetmaker: and change "LAN" name to "LOCAL"
04:03<@planetmaker>people know what a LAN is... local is less well defined IMHO
04:03<Muxy>people with some IT knowledge yes
04:03<Muxy>but Mme Michu does not know what a LAN is
04:04<@planetmaker>then rather like "home network" vs "internet"
04:04<dihedral>then he's at a bad place playing a multiplayer game
04:04<dihedral>everybody who plays multiplayer games knows what a LAN is
04:04<dihedral>or should know
04:04<@planetmaker>well. we can't go by what people *should* know
04:04<dihedral>and it works in every game / community appart from openttd? cannot tell me that!
04:05<@planetmaker>I *should* have know that playing with logical volume manager destroys the volumes :D
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04:05<Muxy>i have a game were you can choose : Local / Internet / favorites
04:06<@planetmaker>well, you have one favourite for openttd servers...
04:06<@planetmaker>yes, could be more...
04:06<@planetmaker>and windows needs really many updates it seems... 82 :D
04:07<Muxy>favourites are displayed when opening multi-player window, but after it has been populated from internet, you can not clean the list (1.2.2 - dont know about trunk).
04:08<@planetmaker>nothing changed there
04:09<@planetmaker>you with "clean" like not display all servers?
04:09<@planetmaker>the purpose of that list is to show them all ;-)
04:09<Muxy>the list "LAN" / Internet could have other entries who filters list content
04:10<Muxy>you just click and you go to next entry and filter applies
04:10<@planetmaker>you can filter the whole list by the single rows
04:11<@planetmaker>a general filter there would imho be a text area which then filters the list on the entered word. Similar to like the NewGRF list works
04:11<Muxy>and add a check box with "client release only"
04:12<@planetmaker>those are clearly distinguished. Not filtering them out IMHO is good as it shows people when to update
04:12<@planetmaker>and saves them the question of "where did server XXX go"
04:13<Muxy>then filter is not by default
04:13<Muxy>and can be saved after
04:14<Muxy>and if you are version n-1 and find server version n, then can display a message : your client is old, you need to replace it
04:15<Muxy>and send the message every year
04:15<Muxy>hu, your client is getting very old and need to be replaced
04:16<@planetmaker>uhm... no, such message would be very annoying as there's also sometimes good reason to play an older version
04:16<@planetmaker>but it could be hinted there by a one-time message that you're behind current stable
04:17<@planetmaker>when opening the network window
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04:17<Muxy>and if you activate the option "auto replace client when its old", its made automatically.
04:18<Muxy>dont check your money, you dont need to pay ;)
04:18<@planetmaker>tbh, an integrated autoupdate might not be bad. But it's somewhat against the philosophy of "we don't phone home"
04:20<Muxy>yes, but Mme Michu could be happy if something helps her to make her openttd client up-to-date.
04:21<Muxy>uh, new stable servers found, would you like to update ? (yes, no remind me alter, no & dont remind, no & never ask)
04:23<@planetmaker>I know.
04:23<@planetmaker>tbh, it would also make me happy ;-) I'm lazy
04:24<@planetmaker>and it's a nice comfort setting
04:24<Muxy>same for lazy, but i have many openttd client release
04:24<Muxy>from 0.5.3 to 1.2.2 patched
04:25<Muxy>hey i can make some cleaning to increase storage space
04:25<@planetmaker>storage space is cheap and openttd is small ;-)
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04:30<@planetmaker>even with my many versions, repos and what-not-ever, the ~/Documents/OpenTTD folder with newgrfs and screenshots takes 2.7GByte and the ottd folder with all binaries and dev stuff takes 27GByte (from which 13GByte are attributed to ottd/grfdev)
04:31<@planetmaker>as such 30GByte is not that much really :-)
04:32<@planetmaker>e.g. 1GByte is from the last two titlegame competitions :D
04:34<dihedral>planetmaker, your openttd install uses more space than my openttd stuff + related projects
04:34<@planetmaker>dihedral: obviously half of it is grfdev + related stuff :-)
04:34<@planetmaker>and no, I rarely clean up :D
04:34<dihedral>half = 15 gb... let my check my environment
04:34<@planetmaker>disk space is cheap. Lost date expensive
04:35<dihedral>103 MB content download - the rest in total is < 200 MB
04:36<@planetmaker>:-) gotta have many NewGRFs for some bug reports / debugging purposes :-)
04:36<dihedral>that still gives you 29GB more than me :-P
04:36<dihedral>that actually ist quite a lot of space with regards to openttd if you ask me :-P
04:37<@planetmaker>probably yes :-)
04:37<@planetmaker>but it's little compared to what I gather when I take out my camera ;-)
04:37<@planetmaker>one week there easily fills a GByte
04:38<@planetmaker>and these 30GByte were aquired over 5 years or so
04:38<@Terkhen>the server list window needs a big revamp, that's for sure
04:49<dihedral>Terkhen, create a mock up ;-)
04:50<@Terkhen>nah, someone (TM) will do it
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04:51<dihedral>if nobody is interested in it, it will not change :-P
04:59<@Terkhen>the GUI redesigns are a thorny matter, usually no one likes the result
05:00<@Terkhen>and given my ignorance in the matter, I'm not going to cross that bridge :P
05:00<dihedral>some people even complain if you just use the word LAN for 20 years
05:00<dihedral>just because some post 2000 kid does not know what it is
05:01<dihedral>"let us change the world, rather than educate its inhabitants"
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06:37<Elukka>who complains about LAN and what would they rather call it?
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06:41<sbn>Hey guys, this wikipage has a missing picture:
06:45<Fremen>guys can you restart a server with an savegame that was unpassworded but then password it?
06:48<Elukka>i don't see why not
06:50<Fremen>or I should try to run 2 at once, which will probably not work too well
06:57<@planetmaker>Fremen, as admin you can join every company via rcon move CLIENTID COMPANYID and then set passwords after loading a savegame
06:57<@planetmaker>passwords are not stored anywhere and thus cannot be restored automatically
06:58<Fremen>hm strange because I thought it was loaded
06:58<Fremen>but I'll be wrong :)
06:58<@planetmaker>I'm talking about company savegames
06:58<Fremen>but I ment server password
06:58<@planetmaker>The server-wide password is set within the config file
06:58<@planetmaker>but not stored in savegames either. It "lives" independent of the savegame or what the server does
06:59<Fremen>I have a server running that pauses when no one is playing, and a friend joined, we both went to sleep, now someone else joined this night and had the game run vor 20 years :d
06:59<Fremen>but if you restart the server with savegame and password in the cfg file then it will be passworden?
06:59<@planetmaker>yes, use the server-side password for that
06:59<@planetmaker>yes, it then should be password protected
07:00<@planetmaker>server_password =
07:00<@planetmaker>you could also set it via rcon, I guess
07:00<@planetmaker>while being connected
07:00<Fremen>and I tried running 2 servers on different ports, that started ok but one had probs very soon
07:01<Fremen>ah ok
07:01<Fremen>I'm still learning the commands :)
07:01<@planetmaker>running two or more servers normally poses no problem, if properly configured. For instance you want to start each with its own config file
07:01<@planetmaker>Either specified via command line parameter or by using a separate binary in a separate directory with its own config file next to it
07:02<Fremen>you can use the same portsN
07:02*planetmaker ponders to change nick to Haikonen :D
07:02<@planetmaker>no, of course you can't use the same ports
07:02<Fremen>thought so :p
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07:03<Fremen>did use same server_admin_port guess that was the problem
07:03<@planetmaker>yes, they should be distinct as well... though I don't see them being a problem, if you don't use them
07:05<sbn>it will be a problem
07:05<sbn>they are going to bind to that port and one will fail
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07:07<Fremen>well can be only reason why one borked at some point, trying it now
07:07<@planetmaker>servers can also fail to OOM, to missing NewGRFs, GS or AI,...
07:07<@planetmaker>and of course to being compiled with the ominous gcc 4.5
07:08<sbn>gdb to the rescue
07:08<@planetmaker>won't help ;-)
07:09<sbn>So it's a blackhole
07:09<@planetmaker>depends on what you want to gdb
07:10<sbn>The problem he is having
07:10<sbn>what else
07:10<@planetmaker>he should not need gdb for that :-)
07:10<@planetmaker>rather -d net=3 or so would help, if it's a network issue
07:10<@planetmaker>or -d grf=1 if it's missing newgrfs on load savegame
07:11<sbn>You're the expext, Mr. Maker
07:12<@planetmaker>it's the things I regularily stumble over ;-)
07:12<@planetmaker>thus I know how the common oversights look like... savegame works locally but fails on server ;-)
07:12<@planetmaker>Usually it's missing or incompatible newgrfs :D
07:12<Fremen>it's not actually
07:12<Fremen>I'm using serverside savegames too
07:13<@planetmaker>what's a "serverside" savegame?
07:14<Fremen>darned can't find the command to use a seperate cfg file
07:14<Fremen>my saver saves the games :p
07:14<Fremen>damn still not awake
07:14<@planetmaker>./openttd -?
07:14<@planetmaker>will tell you
07:14<Fremen>ah ok :p
07:14<@planetmaker>probably like -c file.cfg
07:16<Fremen>yep it is
07:18<sbn>planetmaker: what is the difference between the block and noblock?
07:19<sbn>just that the double entry signal is converted in a single entry signal?
07:19<@planetmaker>I don't know which block / noblock you mean where
07:19<@planetmaker>it's a large page
07:20<@planetmaker>well. Look at the train which tries to join the ML
07:20<@planetmaker>in the BLOCK case, also a subsequent train can't join the other ML. In the NOBLOCK case a subsequent train could join the other ML
07:21<@planetmaker>thus better through-put in the latter case
07:21<Fremen>hah planetmaker you're right, it's not loading the correct NewGRFs
07:22<sbn>a, they just split the loader thingy
07:22<sbn>I would never figured that out
07:22<sbn>because I wouldn't design it like the block case :s
07:27<Fremen>this sucks, shouldn't teh NewGRF be saved in teh savedgame?
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07:29<@planetmaker>if you play a game which allows add-ons: would you put the whole add-on into each savegame?
07:29<@planetmaker>Saving the very same thing over and over which each savegame?
07:29<Fremen>erm no :p
07:30<Fremen>so loading them on a server is like impossible?
07:30<@planetmaker>Fremen, for servers it thus is *very* advantegeous to only use newgrfs which are found in the online content of openttd
07:31<Fremen>which I do
07:31<Fremen>they're all from there
07:31<@planetmaker>then you can utilize rcon (with a savegame without newgrfs for a start) and get all necessary newgrfs
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07:31<lugo>exporting new-grf presets to a zip-archive would be quite handy :)
07:32<@planetmaker>rcon content select all
07:32<@planetmaker>rcon content download
07:32<@planetmaker>give it then some time to fetch all content
07:32<@planetmaker>then try to load the savegame again
07:33<@planetmaker>mind, that a server needs the exact same version as the savegame wants. Not just a compatible one
07:33<Fremen>so this approach is screwed if one of the newGRF's got updated in the meantime
07:34<Fremen>haha well this should be a one case anyway
07:34<@planetmaker>not really. You'll just have to update the server :-)
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07:47<@planetmaker>hm... our server script for updates does like
07:47<@planetmaker>rcon "content update"
07:47<@planetmaker>rcon "content select all"
07:47<@planetmaker>rcon "content upgrade"
07:47<@planetmaker>rcon "content download"
07:47<@planetmaker>not sure really we need the update and upgrade lines
07:48<@planetmaker>afterwards you need to restart the server though; it needs to be re-read the available newgrf
07:53<Fremen>hm ok
07:53<Fremen>won't it lose all the content again?
07:53<Fremen>when restarting
07:53<@planetmaker>content is saved locally on the HDD
07:53<@planetmaker>it's the add-ons :-)
07:53<Fremen>i see
07:54<@planetmaker>it just needs the proper content (files)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: isn't there a commant to rescan the files?
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>doing the same as the rescan button in the GUI
07:58<@planetmaker>even that has some issues :-)
07:59<Fremen>still i don't get the restarting part, nothing is stored on the hd that wasnt there, what will change? :p
07:59<Fremen>all the files are there
07:59<@planetmaker>Fremen, did you check your ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf dir for changes?
07:59<Fremen>yeh it's all the same
08:00<@planetmaker>or the local one ./content_download/newgrf ?
08:00<Fremen>yeh that one
08:00<Fremen>it's all there that's why I don't understand this system
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08:01<Fremen>it's all there why doesn't he use it when starting up :p
08:01<Fremen>if I restart with the savegame everything will be the same again
08:01<Fremen>aka newGRF errors
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08:01<@planetmaker>what kind of error?
08:01<Fremen>or I'm just too stupid
08:02<Fremen>that he can't find the newGRF's
08:02<Fremen>because nothing changed so why would that change
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08:02<@planetmaker>are you sure that savegame ever was run on that very server?
08:02<Fremen>of course
08:03<Fremen>what I do is start a single player game with all settings I need, then leave game, edit some variables et voila
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08:03<Fremen>but when loading a savegame it seems to forget the newGRF's
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08:04<@planetmaker>ehm... you *first* need to configure newgrfs. Then to configure the settings. Both from the main menu. Then generate the savegame and save it
08:05<Fremen>I can't follow
08:05<@planetmaker>I could say the same ;-)
08:05<Fremen>all the newGRF's are configured
08:05<@planetmaker>and then?
08:05<Fremen>I mean they loaded
08:05<Fremen>when starting the server
08:05<@planetmaker>what is "loaded"?
08:05<Fremen>he uses theùm
08:05<@planetmaker>how do you know?
08:06<Fremen>because they work? :p
08:06<@planetmaker>seeing them doesn't mean using them
08:06<Fremen>people have to download them to get on teh server, the button bottom right thing
08:06<Fremen>they can't join without them
08:06<@planetmaker>I'm afraid in your description you've mixed too much single player and server for me to know what you did when how and where and which savegame in what state was loaded on which machine in which state how ;-)
08:07<@planetmaker>so... server works?
08:07<Fremen>well teh savegame is made by teh server that used the newGRF's
08:07<@planetmaker>what's then "forgets newgrfs"?
08:07<Fremen>that's why I don't understand how this system works
08:07<@planetmaker>didn't you just say you created the savegame locally?
08:07<@planetmaker>"<Fremen> what I do is start a single player game with all settings I need, then leave game, edit some variables et voila"
08:07<Fremen>it was taken from an autosave on the server
08:07<Fremen>yeh but that's not about the savegame
08:08<Fremen>that's when I want to speed up some settings like map size and such, easier that way than lookign for all the variables in the cfg file
08:08<@planetmaker>is the server public?
08:09<Fremen>I want to start a new server (passworded this time) with a savegame of teh public server
08:09<@planetmaker>ehm... the newgrf config of a savegame is NOT saved in the config file. thus if you load a savegame with newgrfs. And then have the server generate a newer larger map, of course you don't have the same newgrfs there
08:09<Fremen>so I just start one with an autosave of that game but now with a password
08:10<Fremen>it's not geerating anythign new :p
08:10<Fremen>it's loading a savegame
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08:10<@planetmaker>is the server your local computer or remote?
08:11<Fremen>one of my local pc's
08:11<@planetmaker>windows? linux?
08:11<@planetmaker>have the server run the game. save it. load it.
08:11<@planetmaker>Does it work?
08:12<@planetmaker>if step 1 fails, use a save which works
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08:12<Fremen>none of the saves work I mean none loads the newGRF's :p
08:12<Fremen>that's the problem
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08:12<@planetmaker>then you got no newgrfs installed there
08:12<Fremen>I have
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08:12<Fremen>that's why I don't understand
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08:12<Fremen>they are all there
08:13<@planetmaker>how do you know they're in the right directories?
08:13<@planetmaker>where's your server? where's the newgrfs?
08:13<@planetmaker>what's your openttd version?
08:13<@planetmaker>are they the same?
08:13<Fremen>i'm sure they are all the same
08:13<Fremen>as it's a savegame from 10am
08:13<Fremen>and I tried it at 11am
08:14<@planetmaker>what does the time have to do with versions and paths?
08:14<Fremen>I mean it's all in content_download/newgrf
08:14<@planetmaker>in which dir?
08:14<@planetmaker>full dir, full path, please
08:14<@planetmaker>also of the openttd.exe
08:14<@planetmaker>and of how you start the server
08:15<@planetmaker>I'm quite sure you messed up paths somehow.
08:15<@planetmaker>After all you tried to start a 2nd one there now...
08:15<@planetmaker>you must have changed some things
08:15<Fremen>I didn't :p
08:15<Fremen>I didn't change a thing
08:15<Fremen>just a 2nd cfg fil
08:16<Fremen>which is a copy of the oteh rone just with a password and ports changed
08:16<@planetmaker>that is a change. A significant one. Or can be
08:16<Fremen>and i'm loading teh autosave on startup
08:17<@planetmaker>Sorry, can't help you
08:17<Fremen>guess I should just shut down the other server :p
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08:17<Fremen>or load the game there
08:17<Fremen>shit will be solved :p
08:18<@planetmaker>I need more info, don't get them and it's all totally confusing, I'm afraid
08:18<Fremen>well I don't blame you, I just can't follow why he would look in another path this time around
08:19<@planetmaker>start by actually describing your problem in full. Not just the symptom of "doesn't work". Quote full paths. full commands.
08:19<@planetmaker>They DO matter
08:19<@planetmaker>even when YOU don't see it
08:19<Fremen>"C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D -g save/joost1.sav -c openTTD2.cfg
08:20<Fremen>that's how I start it
08:20<@planetmaker>and how before?
08:20<@planetmaker>leave out the "save"
08:20<Fremen>ow I get way less errors this time
08:21<Fremen>the rcon update commands etc seem to have helped...
08:21<Fremen>"C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D
08:21<Fremen>still error though, 3 with incompatible versions
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08:22<Fremen>from things I don't even know what they are
08:22<Fremen>watertower something
08:23<@planetmaker>as long as your *savegame* doesn't use them, it doesn't matter. If your savegame *DOES* use them, you *should* know what they are
08:23<Fremen>I don't recognize teh variables :s
08:24<Fremen>i can join the server and everythign looks fine
08:24<Fremen>of course can be something that is screwed up underneath
08:26<Fremen>ah well I'm too stupid for this stuff, I'm hapy with this result :p
08:26<Fremen>shouldn't be happening again anyway
08:28<@planetmaker>why not?
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08:28<Fremen>akay !
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08:29<Fremen>it's indeed about the paths, it uses the games root instead of the folder where all the cfg files etc are
08:29<Fremen>that content folder has now like every newgrf that is available online :p
08:30<Fremen>damn Windows
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08:30<@planetmaker>those problems are not windows-specific
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08:31<Fremen>well that game makes a folder in mydocuments
08:31<@planetmaker>yes, it does
08:31<Fremen>but when loading an autosave etc it does use the game folder
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08:32<@planetmaker>iff you place the cfg next to the exe. And call the exe from its own directory. Then, and only then, it should put all stuff local to that binary (but still read newgrfs also from the global MyDocuments folder)
08:33<Fremen>I see !
08:33<Fremen>both servers are now running
08:33<Fremen>I can smell autosave overwritings incoming but i'll live with that :)
08:34<@planetmaker>yes, that'll happen, if you use the same binary...
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08:34<@planetmaker>that's why I usually recommend to have a separate binary for each server
08:34<Fremen>goind to do that now
08:34<@planetmaker>which then has a separate cfg next to it. And also a separate save/autosave folder
08:35<@planetmaker>And the content_download folders... windows sucks. It doesn't allow proper links.
08:35<Fremen>makes sense, it's just that i'm too lazy sometimes :p
08:35<Fremen>I'm too lazy to try linux, i really should do it soon
08:36<@planetmaker>why should you?
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08:37<Fremen>cause I'm tired of windows :p
08:37<Fremen>can't have firefox open for one day, it generates memory leaks of 2GB etc
08:37<Fremen>I'm pretty sure that's Windows related and not firefox :p
08:38<Fremen>stuff like that annoys me
08:38<@planetmaker>like... I setup windows. started linux setup. Destroyed all partitions. Setup windows again, installed linux. installed another linux with working network driver. Looking now for a way to fix the display driver
08:38<@planetmaker>that was my day yesterday ;-)
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds truly crazy :p
08:38<Fremen>bah :p
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08:39<Fremen>I'm trying to do everything to get out of the IT jobs, but it follows me everywhere, tired of it for years now :s
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08:42<dihedral>Fremen, what would you rather do?
08:42<Fremen>something vreative
08:42<dihedral>... IT :-D
08:42<FLHerne>planetmaker: Have you had Windows' overzealous disk-decorrupting thing wipe your Linux partition yet? :P
08:43<Fremen>nah for me that's not creative, it paralyzes my mind
08:43<dihedral>ah - then you are not in the correct area of IT :-P
08:44<@planetmaker>FLHerne, not really. But it might be related that I only very rarely run windows. Like privately not during the last 5 years or so
08:44<@planetmaker>except in a VM
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08:47<Fremen>I creatd board and cardgames as a hobby, I want to do something similar as my job, but ofc that's extremely hard
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08:55<Asteconn>Fremen: Self publish =3
08:56<Asteconn>I'm doing that with a pen and paper RPG I'm writing for the hell of it presently
08:56<Fremen>well that's the intention
08:57<Fremen>it's doable with a cardgame, less so with a boardgame to start with :)
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09:43<Asteconn>Fremen: Not too difficult if you publish print-it-yourself PDFs
09:43<Asteconn>You should also take a look at =3
09:44<Fremen>well I'm planning to used artscow and thegamecrafter, I can even make money out of it
09:44<Fremen>but that' snot the important part ofc
09:44<Fremen>I have my prototype printed by printerstudio, which is awesome
09:46<Asteconn>My game is still in alpha, and is about 50% complete. Although it /is/ about 90% playable
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09:46<Fremen>game is in alpha as well, but i needed some prototypes with basic art
09:46<Fremen>people seem to like that art though which is already great :p
09:47<Fremen>when I got some 'basic' playtesting and tweaking done I'll contact foreign people to test it out
09:48<Fremen>wot you even have lore ;)
09:53<@Terkhen>oooh, weekend
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09:57<KasperVld>Why hello there :3
09:58<KasperVld>well, let's get the party started shall we?
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10:02<@Terkhen>hi Belugas and KasperVld
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10:06<@Belugas>Terkhen :D
10:06<@Belugas>it's FRIDAY!
10:06<Fremen>"Sure, you can remove everything."
10:06<Fremen>"Ok." me clicks remove all
10:06<Fremen>"But leave the root files for now."
10:06<Fremen>aight :s
10:07<@Terkhen>Belugas: I agree, FRIDAY!!
10:07<KasperVld>I disagree, but that's probably because Im still effed over from all those night shifts
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10:33<Asteconn>Fremen: Yep =] I even have lore
10:33<Asteconn>It's in the process of being written - I concentrated firstly on the system itself
10:33<Asteconn>Still needs some work mind you o.o
10:35<Fremen>my games tend to be overcomplicated so I'm now working on something that plays smooth and not too long
10:36<Fremen>I tend to overcomplicate stuff and disturd the flow
10:36<Fremen>but it's nothing like RPG's, that's not my thing
10:38<Fremen>I'm working on a website now, it's finally taking soms shape :p
10:49<Asteconn>protip on a website: use a CMS
10:49<Asteconn>Personally I'd recommend drupal
10:50<Asteconn>You can get a free one at drupal gardens actually
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11:08<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 31 11:31:18 2012
---Logopened Fri Aug 31 11:31:24 2012
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12:02<frosch123>moin :)
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12:05<@Alberth>lol "yeah, the cargo transport window is mostly useless" :)
12:08<frosch123>excel integration?
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12:43<@planetmaker>so... it takes 2 half days to get debian running on a somewhat new system...
12:43<@planetmaker>and basically using loads of backports
12:44<frosch123>your first installation?
12:44<@planetmaker>of debian: yes
12:44<@planetmaker>felt (and feel) like a total noob.
12:44<frosch123>yeah, weird hardware can delay installations :)
12:44<@planetmaker>centos and suse seem to work easier in that respect
12:45<@planetmaker>yes... network and graphics were what took quite a bit time.
12:45<frosch123>no idea about centos; suse has not impressed me
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12:46<@planetmaker>well; they work at least more with a somewhat more friendly GUI. while I had to wade mostly through apt-get... which is ok, but...
12:46<@planetmaker>... nothing you can ask a user which just wants it working
12:47<frosch123>why does "gnu gpl steam greenlight" result in so useless search results?
12:48<@planetmaker>the usefulness of results is proportional to the forum and e-mail "steam" about it ;-)
12:49<@planetmaker>*inversely proportional
12:49<frosch123>well, maybe i should delete all my cookies
12:49<frosch123>sometimes i think my search results are totally screwed because google knows me too well :)
12:49<frosch123>e.g. tt-forums showed up with that search querry
12:50<@planetmaker>we also have at least two people suggesting that via e-mail
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12:54<frosch123>well, wrt. the forum discussion... _if_ ottd is allowed on steam, it should be uploaded by someone of us
12:54<frosch123>if a random user upload it, it is unlikely to receive proper updates
12:55<frosch123>i am having a hard time to find proper legel stuff for greenlight, but at least it seems to have a bananas-like term of "only developers/owners may add stuff"
13:00<frosch123>though argueably in about every discussion thread about greenlight, openttd is mentioned on the first two pages :p
13:00<@Terkhen>I agree
13:01<@Terkhen>but yes, I didn't find the terms of use either
13:01<frosch123>rumors say, ottd was already denied by them due not being uploaded by the developers
13:01<frosch123>but i don't see anyone of us uploading it, without knowing whether it is gpl compatible :)
13:01<@Terkhen>I saw some tweets mentioning that it was suggested, but I wasn't able to find it at greenlight, i also assumed that it was deleted
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13:02<frosch123>i found some news that steam will shortly get a linux client, because they feel treated by win 8 :p
13:03<@Terkhen>yes, I have been following all related news because I like many valve games... being free of wine for them would be great
13:04<@Terkhen>it seems that they have been actively helping graphics card driver developers too
13:04<frosch123>no idea, i only played hl and cs
13:04<frosch123>though i am not sure whether the latter counts as valve
13:04<frosch123>i am not aware of any other valve game i might have played
13:04<@Terkhen>I'm mostly with tf2 and portal 2
13:05<@Terkhen>the upload form has a bananas-esque checkbox asking if you have rights to sell the game you are proposing
13:06<frosch123>hmm, good point, i should have checked the upload stuff for tos
13:06<frosch123>but i assume you already did :)
13:06<@Terkhen>I can find user terms of use and a legal note about copyright infringement, but nothing about the tos of the upload itself
13:10<@Terkhen>I can't find anything, let me check the forums
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13:15<@Terkhen>this reminds me that maybe we should take ownership of this
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13:21<+glx>frosch123: valve started to port source to linux (ubuntu only for now)
13:21<+glx>and they were surprised it was faster than under windows
13:22<Nat_aS>Windows 8 will be the death of microsoft
13:22<Nat_aS>unix will be the new gaming platform
13:22<Nat_aS>valve will solve all the unix gaming issues
13:23<Nat_aS>by yelling at hardware manufacturers
13:23<@Terkhen>as proven in the past, it would take more than a crappy windows version for that
13:23<frosch123>well, borland died trying to support linux :p
13:23<@Terkhen>even if this one is specially crappy
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13:23<Nat_aS>I'm stickin with seven
13:23<frosch123>isn't every second windows version crap?
13:23<+glx>indeed :)
13:23<Nat_aS>but I think I'm gonna buy a new computer for ubuntu 12
13:23<frosch123>like as if they are alternating two dev teams :p
13:24<Nat_aS>frosch123, I'll believe that
13:24<frosch123>same applies for linux, kde 3 and gnome 2 are great, kde 4 and gnome 3 are crap
13:24<@Terkhen>95, millenium, vista, 8... sounds like you are right
13:24<frosch123>i hope it gets solved with kde 5 and gnome 4 :)
13:24<Nat_aS>98, 2000, XP, 7
13:25<Nat_aS>lots of things have shitty odd numbers
13:25<@Terkhen>right now I'm using 7; I'm not switching back to linux until I see some proper support for optimus, which my new laptop uses
13:25<frosch123>2000 is a nt series, i guess you have to exclude that one
13:25<Nat_aS>it happens a lot in game series
13:25<@Terkhen>yes, I was excluding 2000
13:25<Nat_aS>it's not?
13:26<+glx>2000 is an xp for servers
13:27<__ln__>2003 is an xp for servers
13:27<__ln__>isn't 2000 more like nt for desktops
13:28<+glx>it's definitely a non "casual" user version
13:28<Nat_aS>as for unix killing bordland
13:28<__ln__>not for home desktops maybe, but business desktops
13:28<Nat_aS>I think if any company can do it, it will be valve
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13:30<@Yexo>can I interest anyone in playing a H2H / NoCarGoal game tonight?
13:30<@Terkhen>Nat_aS: I don't think that a game company such as valve is interested in supporting the complete linux ecosystem, with all their distributions and so on
13:31<+glx>Terkhen: the first step is ubuntu
13:31<Nat_aS>well that's kind of impossible
13:31<@Terkhen>best case scenario, they support only ubuntu
13:31<@Terkhen>worst case scenario, they try to create their own distro :P
13:31<Nat_aS>the idea is the complete ecosystem, makes there own damn suport
13:31<@Terkhen>Yexo: count me in :D
13:32<Nat_aS>if they only officaly support Ubuntu
13:32<@Terkhen>Nat_aS: I know how it works, but that does not means the company wants to work that way
13:32<@Terkhen>maybe I'm a pessimistic :P
13:32<Nat_aS>but document everything and leave it open, then everyone else can do the work themselves
13:32<Nat_aS>it will only work well on ubuntu
13:32<Nat_aS>but it could be hacked into other things
13:32<frosch123>Terkhen: they just have to statically link everything :p
13:32<Nat_aS>I mean they only have to close the parts that cost money
13:33<frosch123>ottd generic build also runs everywhere, doesn't it?
13:33<+glx> <-- 4th paragraph
13:33<@Terkhen>glx: nice :D
13:33<+glx>frosch123: yes with all libs statically linked
13:34<@Terkhen>I'll probably run xubuntu for a while anyways, until I get bored of it and look for something more bleeding edge again
13:35<@Terkhen>then I'll get bored of having to fix stuff weekly and go back to ubuntu
13:35<@Terkhen>following my usual pattern
13:35<Nat_aS>Why does nothing work in the future!
13:36<Nat_aS>I run windows on new computers and then install ubuntu on them when they get old
13:36<Nat_aS>but I want a new computer to run ubuntu on, I'm just afraid of hardware issues if I try to install it on a new computer
13:36<Nat_aS>what's a good computer for unix?
13:36<Nat_aS>laptop wise
13:37<__ln__>a macbook
13:37<Nat_aS>but then I'd be giving money to apple
13:37<@Terkhen>just check the hardware specs before buying it... I bought mine from a small seller in spain and I know that linux already supports everything on it except optimus
13:37<Nat_aS>although I am intrested in ultrabooks
13:37<@Terkhen>IIRC retina looks horrible on linux
13:37<Nat_aS>the mac air would be the ideal if it were less expensive and not made by apple
13:38<Nat_aS>made of aluminum instead of plastic and no moving parts
13:40<@Terkhen>Nat_aS: get one of those tablets-with-keyboards that are appearing a lot lately :P
13:40<Nat_aS>I want a computer not a tablet though
13:40<Nat_aS>I hate moble OSes on anything that's not a phone
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13:41<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
13:41<@Terkhen>Nat_aS: that's why I dislike unity, and will probably hate windows 8
13:41<Nat_aS>can ubuntu 12 go back to Gnome?
13:41<Nat_aS>like 10 can?
13:42<Nat_aS>I'll try Unity, it's not as LOOK AT ME I'M A MOBILE OS as 8 is
13:42<__ln__>Nat_aS: i don't think you're going to find a laptop more suitable for unix from any other manufacturer.
13:42<Nat_aS>and it's still a PC Os
13:42<Nat_aS>even if it's optomized for touchscreens
13:42<Nat_aS>what about Samsung?
13:42<Nat_aS>they are pretty much the same thing
13:42<Nat_aS>legaly speaking
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13:43<@Terkhen>I'll stick with XFCE
13:43<Nat_aS>nice to see it when a company bends to consumer preasure
13:44<@Terkhen>I dislike Gnome 3, I'm never able to get used to KDE and I hate unity
13:44<Kjetil>Gnome 3 is horrible
13:45<frosch123>[19:40] <Nat_aS> I hate moble OSes on anything that's not a phone <- that's why
13:45<@planetmaker>hm... 32 seconds real build time for OpenTTD. I like that :D
13:45<Kjetil>It doesn't fit my workflow where I have multiple open programs which I use at the same time
13:45<frosch123>gnome 3 is touchscreen-ish
13:45<@Terkhen>whenever I use gnome 3, I'm always desiring that I had a proper desktop to place icons and stuff
13:45<frosch123>planetmaker: -j what?
13:46<@Alberth>just -j :)
13:46<@Terkhen>I'm also forced to use the mouse for everything
13:46<@Terkhen>except for writing in the search box
13:46<@Terkhen>I have not tested how fast I can compile openttd on my new laptop
13:46<@Terkhen>let's see
13:46<frosch123>planetmaker: i only use -j 5, and the disk is the bottleneck :s
13:47<@Alberth>buy more RAM :)
13:47<frosch123>i have enough ram
13:47<Nat_aS>technacly windows 7 is touchscreenish
13:47<Nat_aS>having big buttons does not make it a mobile os
13:47<frosch123>but i think my disk scheduler is bad :)
13:48<@Alberth>if you have enough ram, you'd run everything from the disk cache, don't you?
13:49<frosch123>Nat_aS: the question is whether all context menus have been removed, and all menus are reduced to say 5 items with huge font, basically removing all useful (though less mainstream) stuff
13:49<@planetmaker>frosch123: I guess the disk is here the bottleneck,too
13:49<@Terkhen>1m23s... which is roughly the same than in my old laptop
13:49<frosch123>Alberth: it has to write it to disk or so
13:49<@Alberth>frosch123: bummer :(
13:50<frosch123>anyway, i have 2gb per core, so if that is not enough, it's the os fault :p
13:50<@Terkhen>I guess that using windows, the ancient version of bash/make included in mingw and not using the SSD are to blame
13:50<frosch123>but i never felt like trying different io schedulers
13:50<@Alberth>Terkhen: I'd blame "using windows" :p
13:51<@Terkhen>that's the biggest problem of the list, yes :P
13:51<frosch123>40s for debug=3 build here
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13:53<frosch123>55s for optimised build
13:53<@Alberth>mine take much longer, my machine is old :)
13:54<frosch123>define "old" :)
13:54<frosch123>mine is about 2 years i believe
13:54<Kjetil>Is it a VAX ?
13:54<frosch123>though i can never remember :p
13:56<frosch123>and, yeah -j 9 results in the same time as -j 5 :p
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13:57<@Alberth>6 years
13:58<@Alberth>runing more than 1+<number of cores> jobs is not very useful in general :)
13:58<frosch123>the difficulty is how to count virtual cores :p
13:58<frosch123>though luckily i have none :)
13:59<@Alberth>that simplifies the problem quite a lot :)
14:00<frosch123>planetmaker: you should check whether lower -j numbers make any difference :)
14:00<frosch123>also, did you do debug or release build?
14:01<Nat_aS>of all the
14:01<Nat_aS>"Ultrabooks" listed on Newegg
14:01<Nat_aS>only 7 of them actualy have SSDs
14:02<@Alberth>tell the manufacturers that :)
14:02<Nat_aS>what's the point of a buzword if it dosn't specify anything
14:02<@Terkhen>Nat_aS: I saw many "high performance gaming laptops" with a 5,400 rpm HDD
14:02<@Terkhen>not 7200, let alone SSD
14:03<@Yexo>I thought "ultrabook" was just about the size of the thing
14:03<@Yexo>what has ssd/hdd to do with it?
14:03<+glx><@Terkhen> I guess that using windows, the ancient version of bash/make included in mingw and not using the SSD are to blame <-- disk accesses on windows are slow
14:03<Nat_aS>well high preformance gaming just means it has a good graphics card
14:03<@Terkhen>moar powah
14:04<Nat_aS>Ultrabook means a laptop that does not compromise on portability and power. Specificaly using some technologies that Intel thinks are cool
14:04<Nat_aS>such as SSDs and cloud storage
14:05<Nat_aS>it's defined by intel
14:07<Nat_aS>if you remove the search term ultrabook, you actualy get more laptops that fit the ultrabook description better
14:07<Nat_aS>by just searching for laptops with only SSDs
14:10<frosch123>glx: depends completely on the filesystem
14:12<@Terkhen>the choices for that on windows are not very stellar :)
14:13<Kjetil>FAT64 is the fa(s)test
14:14<frosch123>i ran the popular "grf2html"-disk-benchmark test (creation of lots of small files), and it turned out that fat16 << ext3 << ntfs
14:14<frosch123>5 years ago :)
14:14<frosch123>comparing xp and gentoo
14:14<@Yexo>so which was fastest? fat16 or ntfs?
14:15<frosch123>153.4s on fat16 (16k clusters), 52.7s on ext3, 44.5s on ntfs
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14:16<frosch123>though the linux text used wine
14:16<frosch123>so, that might have impacted it badly
14:16<frosch123>and fat16 used 3 times more disk space, due to the bad cluster size
14:16<Chris_Booth>why not fat32?
14:17<frosch123>i guess i had no fat32 disk to test :p
14:17<frosch123>don't ask why i had a fat16 disk :p
14:17<Chris_Booth>I would be interested in how fast HSF+ is compared to NTFS
14:17<frosch123>i also had no ext4 or reiserfs disk :)
14:18<frosch123>(above test is about creating 18929 small files, with 39 MB total size)
14:19<frosch123>so, it filled 1/3 of the fat16 disk or so :p
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14:21<frosch123>oh, i also have numbers for the native linux port
14:21<frosch123>apparently ext3 was way faster than ntfs then :)
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14:24<frosch123>damn, what pain must have been to make delphi and freepascal produce png :p
14:25<frosch123>why did noone port it to c++ ?
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14:28<frosch123>[19:30] <Yexo> can I interest anyone in playing a H2H / NoCarGoal game tonight? <- was there any result wrt. that?
14:28<@Yexo>Terkhen was interested, I asked pm to set up a game in the usual channel but no reaction to that yet
14:29<@Yexo>I'm preparing a game right now
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14:33<@Terkhen>I'll be ready for playing in half an hour or so :)
14:33<Rubidium>sounds interesting
14:34<Kjetil>NoCarGoal ?
14:34<@Yexo>#openttdcoop.nightly channel
14:34<@Yexo>Kjetil: it's a goal script where you have to transport x amount of cargo in x years
14:34<Rubidium>h2h + nocargoal, right?
14:35<Kjetil>And if you don't you loose ?
14:35<@Yexo>Kjetil: yes
14:35<Kjetil>Sounds fun
14:35<@Yexo>also in this case we're mixing it with a patch called "head-to-head"
14:35<@Yexo>it gives each company a separate copy of the exact same map
14:35<@Yexo> <- see that
14:36<@Yexo>you can see what every company is doing but only build in your own area
14:36<Kjetil>heh. A lot has changed since I played around with ottd
14:37<@Yexo>this is not yet in any stable/nightly release ;)
14:37<@Yexo>as a patch it has existed for a very long time
14:37<Kjetil>Are new goals continously added ?
14:37<@Yexo>anyone can add goals via a scripting API
14:38*Kjetil was thinking more along the lines of new goals being generated when the old ones expire
14:38<@Yexo>ah, no, not yet
14:38<Rubidium>though you could relatively easily code that
14:38<@Yexo>but feel free to suggest that:
14:40<Kjetil>Alltough I guess there are some issues with longrunning games in a H2H-scenario. (Where to place new industries etc)
14:41<Rubidium>Yexo: 64x2048x4 crashes h2h
14:42<@Yexo>Rubidium: known issue
14:42<@Yexo>2048x64x4 should work
14:42<@Yexo>map size you specify is map size for each player
14:42<@Yexo>but the total still has to fit within 2048x2048
14:42<@Yexo>abandoning map generation also causes crashes
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14:44<Rubidium>though 64x2048x4 doesn't reach MapSize() yet, which is what it asserts on
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14:46<Wolf01>thunderstorm ;)
14:47<@Yexo>Rubidium: for me it errors out with "Invalid map size" (map.cpp:59)
14:48<Rubidium>hmm, the second time it did that
14:48<Rubidium>Error: Assertion failed at line 76 of /home/rubidium/openttd/special/head-to-head.hg/src/tile_map.h: tile < MapSize()
14:48<Rubidium>that's the first time
14:50<Rubidium>start -> new map 256x256x1 -> intro -> new map 256x256x4 -> intro -> new map 2048x64x4
14:51<Rubidium>looks like a second or third x4 map crashes with the assert
14:51<Rubidium>as in: new map -> abandon cycle
14:51<Rubidium>oh, for greenlight you first need to buy a steam game
14:52<@Yexo>are you abandoning map generation or going back after it has completed?
14:52<Rubidium>after it is completed
14:54<frosch123>Rubidium: you need to buy a game to be able to upload one?
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14:54<Rubidium>last paragraph, second sentence
14:55<Squire>Seems reasonable
14:56<Squire>Personally i'd rather see more professional game choices up there. I've seen Zoo Tycoon 2 and Faces of War, but Faces of War is more or less identical to it's sequel Men of War anyway
14:57<Squire>There's a lot of frankly crap "indie" games on their list so far, most of which I wouldn't pay a penny for
14:58<@Yexo>ah :(
14:58<@Yexo>I've seen that one before
14:58<Rubidium>@base 10 16 65047
14:58<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: FE17
14:59<Rubidium>Squire: I was just implying that I wouldn't be uploading it there
15:00<Rubidium>though *if* they ask whether you may legally sell the content instead of whether you are the owner of it, then basically everyone may upload it
15:00<Rubidium>if not, then who is the owner?!?
15:05<argoneus>is it hard to implement your own A* algorithm in openttd?
15:05<argoneus>a simple one that works
15:05<Rubidium>in what context?
15:06<Rubidium>in an AI/GS?
15:06<Rubidium>or in the C++ code?
15:06<@Yexo>I've seen that one before
15:06<Rubidium>in the latter it's about as hard as it is for any implementation in C++, and for the former about as hard as it is for a scripting language
15:07<@Yexo>but in both cases: a high quality implementation already exists that you can reuse
15:07<@Yexo>I don't see any reason to implement A* in either case
15:07<Rubidium>though implementing it sounds pointless since there are already implementations
15:07<argoneus>yeah there are
15:07<argoneus>but as I want to study programming
15:07<argoneus>I feel like implementing it myself could give me a better idea of it
15:07<argoneus>I mean
15:08<argoneus>if I was making a commercial application
15:08<argoneus>I'd re-use as much as possible because I need it stable
15:08<argoneus>but doing this could be a nice personal experience, no?
15:08<@Yexo>implementing A* is not very complicated, but then I don't know how much experience with programming you have
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15:08<@Yexo>if it's your first program I'd advise against starting with an AI/GS in OpenTTD, since they're hard to debug
15:10<argoneus>I wanted to make it in openttd because I thought it'd be easy to debug
15:10<argoneus>I mean, the railway either is there or isn't
15:10<argoneus>if I wanted to do it in C++, I'd need to implement a graphical grid myself
15:10<argoneus>so I thought this'd be simpler
15:11<@planetmaker>of course it's there or not there. But... that's the hard way of debugging :-)
15:11<@Yexo>that's true, but on the other hand there is no good way to set breakpoints or get the values of variables while your script is running
15:11<@Alberth>make a text grid instead
15:11<@planetmaker>lol. write with tracks on the map :D
15:12<Wolf01>gah, thunderstorm again :(
15:13<@Alberth>Wolf01: it likes you, apparently
15:13<Wolf01>I would like it if I could be able to use it for my UPS :P
15:13<@Yexo>Kjetil: but don't let any of us stop you if you want to try it :)
15:14<@Yexo>if it's for learning and you have fun, why not?
15:16<argoneus>Yexo: did you mean him or me?
15:16<@Alberth>probably you :)
15:16<@Yexo>argoneus: you :)
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15:58<@Yexo>andythenorth: care for a nocargoal game?
15:58<@Yexo>we're in the planning stage right now, no building done yet
15:59<andythenorth>yes, although I'm very tired :)
15:59<andythenorth>might be more watch than play :P
15:59<@Yexo>doens't matter :)
15:59<@Yexo>nightly r24502, the usual channel
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16:29<Squire>pst. andythenorth likes to watch...
16:31<@Terkhen>nah, when he sees the action he can't help but join :P
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16:35<Zuu>Yexo et al: Agreed that debugging capabilities in OpenTTD doesn't come up to usual debuggers. But with FS#5206 it will be fairly easy to add GSController::Break() that will suspend the AI/GS from source.
16:37<Zuu>Its already possible for AIs to pause the game when AIController::Break() is called, just that noone have pushed a such patch for trunk.
16:38<Zuu>I know there was one patch to add more advanced debugging capabilities, but it was more or less just a "here it is, take it or leave it" patch on the forum.
16:41<Zuu>Or an AI/GS can use SuperLib.Helper.BreakPoint. It will put a sign on a tile and not return until that sign have been removed (by you)
16:42<frosch123>Zuu: we are playing, your fault :)
16:42<Zuu>Oh, that's why its so quiet :-)
16:42<Zuu>Oh, you use a new version with my fix. :-)
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18:16<@Terkhen>good night
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18:19<andythenorth>good night
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18:19<@Yexo>good night
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20:08<Eddi|zuHause>"samsung pays apple with 30 truckloads of 5¢ coins" ... i don't know, something in me screams "fake" at this headline
20:09<+glx>it's possible
20:10<Nat_aS>no it's not
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>it sounds unplausible. you don't just go to a bank and say "give me a ton of pennies", that means you must have built up a strategic reserve of coins over some time
20:10<Nat_aS>it's fake and deunked
20:10<+glx>I remember an ISP transmitting infos about IPs using printed paper
20:11<Nat_aS>Samsung does not have acess to a billion worth of Nickles
20:11<Nat_aS>not would 30 trucks be enough
20:14<Nat_aS>"according to the United States mint, the total volume of nickels produced in the year 2012 is 679.12 million nickels. At that rate, Samsung has just paid Apple roughly 29.5 years worth of Nickel coin production. "
20:14<Nat_aS>not to menton that samsung dosn't have to pay untill the judge rules
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>i once tried to pay at the dentists 10€ in coins. they sent me right out the door
20:15<Nat_aS>and yes, you can refuse currency
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, there was a bank downstairs
20:16<Nat_aS>you would need ~1,360 trucks to transport a billion in nickles
20:16<Nat_aS>without violating California state laws
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's a bit weird that he starts with volume. with anything solid metal, volume is practically irrelevant. weight is the limiting factor.
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 01 00:00:07 2012