| --- | Log | opened Fri Aug 31 00:00:04 2012 |
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| 03:25 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 03:27 | <dihedral> | greetings |
| 03:44 | <@planetmaker> | hm, we really need to change the default from LAN to internet for multiplayer |
| 03:45 | <@planetmaker> | good morning :-) |
| 04:02 | <Muxy> | planetmaker: and change "LAN" name to "LOCAL" |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | people know what a LAN is... local is less well defined IMHO |
| 04:03 | <Muxy> | people with some IT knowledge yes |
| 04:03 | <Muxy> | but Mme Michu does not know what a LAN is |
| 04:04 | <@planetmaker> | then rather like "home network" vs "internet" |
| 04:04 | <dihedral> | then he's at a bad place playing a multiplayer game |
| 04:04 | <dihedral> | everybody who plays multiplayer games knows what a LAN is |
| 04:04 | <dihedral> | or should know |
| 04:04 | <@planetmaker> | well. we can't go by what people *should* know |
| 04:04 | <dihedral> | and it works in every game / community appart from openttd? cannot tell me that! |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | I *should* have know that playing with logical volume manager destroys the volumes :D |
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| 04:05 | <Muxy> | i have a game were you can choose : Local / Internet / favorites |
| 04:06 | <@planetmaker> | well, you have one favourite for openttd servers... |
| 04:06 | <@planetmaker> | yes, could be more... |
| 04:06 | <@planetmaker> | and windows needs really many updates it seems... 82 :D |
| 04:07 | <Muxy> | favourites are displayed when opening multi-player window, but after it has been populated from internet, you can not clean the list (1.2.2 - dont know about trunk). |
| 04:08 | <@planetmaker> | nothing changed there |
| 04:09 | <@planetmaker> | you with "clean" like not display all servers? |
| 04:09 | <@planetmaker> | the purpose of that list is to show them all ;-) |
| 04:09 | <Muxy> | the list "LAN" / Internet could have other entries who filters list content |
| 04:10 | <Muxy> | you just click and you go to next entry and filter applies |
| 04:10 | <@planetmaker> | you can filter the whole list by the single rows |
| 04:10 | <@planetmaker> | s/filter/sort/ |
| 04:11 | <@planetmaker> | a general filter there would imho be a text area which then filters the list on the entered word. Similar to like the NewGRF list works |
| 04:11 | <Muxy> | and add a check box with "client release only" |
| 04:12 | <@planetmaker> | those are clearly distinguished. Not filtering them out IMHO is good as it shows people when to update |
| 04:12 | <@planetmaker> | and saves them the question of "where did server XXX go" |
| 04:13 | <Muxy> | then filter is not by default |
| 04:13 | <Muxy> | and can be saved after |
| 04:14 | <Muxy> | and if you are version n-1 and find server version n, then can display a message : your client is old, you need to replace it |
| 04:15 | <Muxy> | and send the message every year |
| 04:15 | <Muxy> | hu, your client is getting very old and need to be replaced |
| 04:16 | <@planetmaker> | uhm... no, such message would be very annoying as there's also sometimes good reason to play an older version |
| 04:16 | <@planetmaker> | but it could be hinted there by a one-time message that you're behind current stable |
| 04:17 | <@planetmaker> | when opening the network window |
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| 04:17 | <Muxy> | and if you activate the option "auto replace client when its old", its made automatically. |
| 04:18 | <Muxy> | dont check your money, you dont need to pay ;) |
| 04:18 | <@planetmaker> | :D |
| 04:18 | <@planetmaker> | tbh, an integrated autoupdate might not be bad. But it's somewhat against the philosophy of "we don't phone home" |
| 04:20 | <Muxy> | yes, but Mme Michu could be happy if something helps her to make her openttd client up-to-date. |
| 04:21 | <Muxy> | uh, new stable servers found, would you like to update ? (yes, no remind me alter, no & dont remind, no & never ask) |
| 04:21 | <Muxy> | s/alter/later |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | I know. |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | tbh, it would also make me happy ;-) I'm lazy |
| 04:24 | <@planetmaker> | and it's a nice comfort setting |
| 04:24 | <Muxy> | same for lazy, but i have many openttd client release |
| 04:24 | <Muxy> | from 0.5.3 to 1.2.2 patched |
| 04:25 | <Muxy> | hey i can make some cleaning to increase storage space |
| 04:25 | <@planetmaker> | storage space is cheap and openttd is small ;-) |
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| 04:30 | <@planetmaker> | even with my many versions, repos and what-not-ever, the ~/Documents/OpenTTD folder with newgrfs and screenshots takes 2.7GByte and the ottd folder with all binaries and dev stuff takes 27GByte (from which 13GByte are attributed to ottd/grfdev) |
| 04:31 | <@planetmaker> | as such 30GByte is not that much really :-) |
| 04:32 | <@planetmaker> | e.g. 1GByte is from the last two titlegame competitions :D |
| 04:34 | <dihedral> | planetmaker, your openttd install uses more space than my openttd stuff + related projects |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | dihedral: obviously half of it is grfdev + related stuff :-) |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | and no, I rarely clean up :D |
| 04:34 | <dihedral> | half = 15 gb... let my check my environment |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | disk space is cheap. Lost date expensive |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | *data |
| 04:35 | <dihedral> | 103 MB content download - the rest in total is < 200 MB |
| 04:36 | <@planetmaker> | :-) gotta have many NewGRFs for some bug reports / debugging purposes :-) |
| 04:36 | <dihedral> | that still gives you 29GB more than me :-P |
| 04:36 | <dihedral> | that actually ist quite a lot of space with regards to openttd if you ask me :-P |
| 04:37 | <@planetmaker> | probably yes :-) |
| 04:37 | <@planetmaker> | but it's little compared to what I gather when I take out my camera ;-) |
| 04:37 | <@planetmaker> | one week there easily fills a GByte |
| 04:38 | <@planetmaker> | and these 30GByte were aquired over 5 years or so |
| 04:38 | <@Terkhen> | the server list window needs a big revamp, that's for sure |
| 04:49 | <dihedral> | Terkhen, create a mock up ;-) |
| 04:50 | <@Terkhen> | nah, someone (TM) will do it |
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| 04:51 | <dihedral> | if nobody is interested in it, it will not change :-P |
| 04:59 | <@Terkhen> | the GUI redesigns are a thorny matter, usually no one likes the result |
| 05:00 | <@Terkhen> | and given my ignorance in the matter, I'm not going to cross that bridge :P |
| 05:00 | <dihedral> | some people even complain if you just use the word LAN for 20 years |
| 05:00 | <dihedral> | just because some post 2000 kid does not know what it is |
| 05:01 | <dihedral> | "let us change the world, rather than educate its inhabitants" |
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| 06:37 | <Elukka> | who complains about LAN and what would they rather call it? |
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| 06:41 | <sbn> | Hey guys, this wikipage has a missing picture: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/MSH |
| 06:45 | <Fremen> | guys can you restart a server with an savegame that was unpassworded but then password it? |
| 06:48 | <Elukka> | i don't see why not |
| 06:50 | <Fremen> | or I should try to run 2 at once, which will probably not work too well |
| 06:57 | <@planetmaker> | Fremen, as admin you can join every company via rcon move CLIENTID COMPANYID and then set passwords after loading a savegame |
| 06:57 | <@planetmaker> | passwords are not stored anywhere and thus cannot be restored automatically |
| 06:58 | <Fremen> | hm strange because I thought it was loaded |
| 06:58 | <Fremen> | but I'll be wrong :) |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | I'm talking about company savegames |
| 06:58 | <Fremen> | but I ment server password |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | The server-wide password is set within the config file |
| 06:58 | <@planetmaker> | but not stored in savegames either. It "lives" independent of the savegame or what the server does |
| 06:59 | <Fremen> | I have a server running that pauses when no one is playing, and a friend joined, we both went to sleep, now someone else joined this night and had the game run vor 20 years :d |
| 06:59 | <Fremen> | ok |
| 06:59 | <Fremen> | but if you restart the server with savegame and password in the cfg file then it will be passworden? |
| 06:59 | <Fremen> | passworded |
| 06:59 | <@planetmaker> | yes, use the server-side password for that |
| 06:59 | <@planetmaker> | yes, it then should be password protected |
| 07:00 | <Fremen> | okay |
| 07:00 | <@planetmaker> | server_password = |
| 07:00 | <@planetmaker> | you could also set it via rcon, I guess |
| 07:00 | <@planetmaker> | while being connected |
| 07:00 | <Fremen> | and I tried running 2 servers on different ports, that started ok but one had probs very soon |
| 07:01 | <Fremen> | ah ok |
| 07:01 | <Fremen> | great |
| 07:01 | <Fremen> | I'm still learning the commands :) |
| 07:01 | <@planetmaker> | running two or more servers normally poses no problem, if properly configured. For instance you want to start each with its own config file |
| 07:01 | <@planetmaker> | Either specified via command line parameter or by using a separate binary in a separate directory with its own config file next to it |
| 07:02 | <Fremen> | you can use the same portsN |
| 07:02 | <Fremen> | ? |
| 07:02 | * | planetmaker ponders to change nick to Haikonen :D |
| 07:02 | <@planetmaker> | no, of course you can't use the same ports |
| 07:02 | <Fremen> | thought so :p |
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| 07:03 | <Fremen> | did use same server_admin_port guess that was the problem |
| 07:03 | <@planetmaker> | yes, they should be distinct as well... though I don't see them being a problem, if you don't use them |
| 07:05 | <sbn> | it will be a problem |
| 07:05 | <sbn> | they are going to bind to that port and one will fail |
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| 07:07 | <Fremen> | well can be only reason why one borked at some point, trying it now |
| 07:07 | <@planetmaker> | servers can also fail to OOM, to missing NewGRFs, GS or AI,... |
| 07:07 | <@planetmaker> | and of course to being compiled with the ominous gcc 4.5 |
| 07:08 | <sbn> | gdb to the rescue |
| 07:08 | <@planetmaker> | won't help ;-) |
| 07:09 | <sbn> | So it's a blackhole |
| 07:09 | <@planetmaker> | depends on what you want to gdb |
| 07:10 | <sbn> | The problem he is having |
| 07:10 | <sbn> | what else |
| 07:10 | <@planetmaker> | he should not need gdb for that :-) |
| 07:10 | <@planetmaker> | rather -d net=3 or so would help, if it's a network issue |
| 07:10 | <@planetmaker> | or -d grf=1 if it's missing newgrfs on load savegame |
| 07:11 | <sbn> | You're the expext, Mr. Maker |
| 07:11 | <sbn> | *exprt |
| 07:12 | <sbn> | *expert |
| 07:12 | <Markk> | :) |
| 07:12 | <@planetmaker> | it's the things I regularily stumble over ;-) |
| 07:12 | <@planetmaker> | thus I know how the common oversights look like... savegame works locally but fails on server ;-) |
| 07:12 | <@planetmaker> | Usually it's missing or incompatible newgrfs :D |
| 07:12 | <Fremen> | hm |
| 07:12 | <Fremen> | it's not actually |
| 07:12 | <Fremen> | I'm using serverside savegames too |
| 07:13 | <@planetmaker> | what's a "serverside" savegame? |
| 07:14 | <Fremen> | darned can't find the command to use a seperate cfg file |
| 07:14 | <Fremen> | my saver saves the games :p |
| 07:14 | <Fremen> | server |
| 07:14 | <Fremen> | lol |
| 07:14 | <Fremen> | damn still not awake |
| 07:14 | <@planetmaker> | ./openttd -? |
| 07:14 | <@planetmaker> | will tell you |
| 07:14 | <Fremen> | ah ok :p |
| 07:14 | <@planetmaker> | probably like -c file.cfg |
| 07:16 | <Fremen> | yep it is |
| 07:18 | <sbn> | planetmaker: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Balancing what is the difference between the block and noblock? |
| 07:19 | <sbn> | just that the double entry signal is converted in a single entry signal? |
| 07:19 | <@planetmaker> | I don't know which block / noblock you mean where |
| 07:19 | <@planetmaker> | it's a large page |
| 07:19 | <sbn> | http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/3/34/Block.PNG |
| 07:20 | <sbn> | http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/e/e0/Noblock.PNG |
| 07:20 | <@planetmaker> | ah |
| 07:20 | <@planetmaker> | well. Look at the train which tries to join the ML |
| 07:20 | <@planetmaker> | in the BLOCK case, also a subsequent train can't join the other ML. In the NOBLOCK case a subsequent train could join the other ML |
| 07:21 | <@planetmaker> | thus better through-put in the latter case |
| 07:21 | <Fremen> | hah planetmaker you're right, it's not loading the correct NewGRFs |
| 07:21 | <Fremen> | damned |
| 07:22 | <sbn> | a, they just split the loader thingy |
| 07:22 | <sbn> | I would never figured that out |
| 07:22 | <sbn> | because I wouldn't design it like the block case :s |
| 07:27 | <Fremen> | this sucks, shouldn't teh NewGRF be saved in teh savedgame? |
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| 07:29 | <@planetmaker> | if you play a game which allows add-ons: would you put the whole add-on into each savegame? |
| 07:29 | <@planetmaker> | Saving the very same thing over and over which each savegame? |
| 07:29 | <Fremen> | erm no :p |
| 07:30 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 07:30 | <Fremen> | so loading them on a server is like impossible? |
| 07:30 | <@planetmaker> | Fremen, for servers it thus is *very* advantegeous to only use newgrfs which are found in the online content of openttd |
| 07:31 | <Fremen> | which I do |
| 07:31 | <Fremen> | they're all from there |
| 07:31 | <@planetmaker> | then you can utilize rcon (with a savegame without newgrfs for a start) and get all necessary newgrfs |
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| 07:31 | <Fremen> | mkay |
| 07:31 | <lugo> | exporting new-grf presets to a zip-archive would be quite handy :) |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | http://wiki.openttd.org/Console#File_handling_commands |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | rcon content select all |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | rcon content download |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | give it then some time to fetch all content |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | then try to load the savegame again |
| 07:33 | <@planetmaker> | mind, that a server needs the exact same version as the savegame wants. Not just a compatible one |
| 07:33 | <Fremen> | okay |
| 07:33 | <Fremen> | so this approach is screwed if one of the newGRF's got updated in the meantime |
| 07:34 | <Fremen> | haha well this should be a one case anyway |
| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | not really. You'll just have to update the server :-) |
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| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | hm... our server script for updates does like |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | rcon "content update" |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | rcon "content select all" |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | rcon "content upgrade" |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | rcon "content download" |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | not sure really we need the update and upgrade lines |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | afterwards you need to restart the server though; it needs to be re-read the available newgrf |
| 07:53 | <Fremen> | hm ok |
| 07:53 | <Fremen> | won't it lose all the content again? |
| 07:53 | <Fremen> | when restarting |
| 07:53 | <@planetmaker> | content is saved locally on the HDD |
| 07:53 | <@planetmaker> | it's the add-ons :-) |
| 07:53 | <Fremen> | i see |
| 07:54 | <@planetmaker> | it just needs the proper content (files) |
| 07:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: isn't there a commant to rescan the files? |
| 07:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | doing the same as the rescan button in the GUI |
| 07:58 | <@planetmaker> | even that has some issues :-) |
| 07:59 | <Fremen> | still i don't get the restarting part, nothing is stored on the hd that wasnt there, what will change? :p |
| 07:59 | <Fremen> | all the files are there |
| 07:59 | <@planetmaker> | Fremen, did you check your ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf dir for changes? |
| 07:59 | <Fremen> | yeh it's all the same |
| 08:00 | <@planetmaker> | or the local one ./content_download/newgrf ? |
| 08:00 | <Fremen> | yeh that one |
| 08:00 | <Fremen> | it's all there that's why I don't understand this system |
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| 08:01 | <Fremen> | it's all there why doesn't he use it when starting up :p |
| 08:01 | <@planetmaker> | ? |
| 08:01 | <Fremen> | if I restart with the savegame everything will be the same again |
| 08:01 | <Fremen> | aka newGRF errors |
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| 08:01 | <@planetmaker> | what kind of error? |
| 08:01 | <Fremen> | or I'm just too stupid |
| 08:02 | <Fremen> | that he can't find the newGRF's |
| 08:02 | <Fremen> | because nothing changed so why would that change |
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| 08:02 | <@planetmaker> | are you sure that savegame ever was run on that very server? |
| 08:02 | <Fremen> | of course |
| 08:03 | <Fremen> | what I do is start a single player game with all settings I need, then leave game, edit some variables et voila |
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| 08:03 | <Fremen> | but when loading a savegame it seems to forget the newGRF's |
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| 08:04 | <@planetmaker> | ehm... you *first* need to configure newgrfs. Then to configure the settings. Both from the main menu. Then generate the savegame and save it |
| 08:05 | <Fremen> | I can't follow |
| 08:05 | <@planetmaker> | I could say the same ;-) |
| 08:05 | <Fremen> | all the newGRF's are configured |
| 08:05 | <@planetmaker> | and then? |
| 08:05 | <Fremen> | I mean they loaded |
| 08:05 | <Fremen> | when starting the server |
| 08:05 | <@planetmaker> | what is "loaded"? |
| 08:05 | <Fremen> | he uses theùm |
| 08:05 | <Fremen> | them* |
| 08:05 | <@planetmaker> | how do you know? |
| 08:06 | <Fremen> | because they work? :p |
| 08:06 | <@planetmaker> | seeing them doesn't mean using them |
| 08:06 | <Fremen> | people have to download them to get on teh server, the button bottom right thing |
| 08:06 | <Fremen> | they can't join without them |
| 08:06 | <@planetmaker> | I'm afraid in your description you've mixed too much single player and server for me to know what you did when how and where and which savegame in what state was loaded on which machine in which state how ;-) |
| 08:07 | <@planetmaker> | so... server works? |
| 08:07 | <Fremen> | well teh savegame is made by teh server that used the newGRF's |
| 08:07 | <@planetmaker> | what's then "forgets newgrfs"? |
| 08:07 | <Fremen> | that's why I don't understand how this system works |
| 08:07 | <@planetmaker> | didn't you just say you created the savegame locally? |
| 08:07 | <Fremen> | no |
| 08:07 | <@planetmaker> | "<Fremen> what I do is start a single player game with all settings I need, then leave game, edit some variables et voila" |
| 08:07 | <Fremen> | it was taken from an autosave on the server |
| 08:07 | <Fremen> | yeh but that's not about the savegame |
| 08:08 | <Fremen> | that's when I want to speed up some settings like map size and such, easier that way than lookign for all the variables in the cfg file |
| 08:08 | <@planetmaker> | is the server public? |
| 08:08 | <Fremen> | ye |
| 08:09 | <Fremen> | I want to start a new server (passworded this time) with a savegame of teh public server |
| 08:09 | <@planetmaker> | ehm... the newgrf config of a savegame is NOT saved in the config file. thus if you load a savegame with newgrfs. And then have the server generate a newer larger map, of course you don't have the same newgrfs there |
| 08:09 | <Fremen> | so I just start one with an autosave of that game but now with a password |
| 08:10 | <Fremen> | it's not geerating anythign new :p |
| 08:10 | <Fremen> | it's loading a savegame |
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| 08:10 | <@planetmaker> | is the server your local computer or remote? |
| 08:11 | <Fremen> | one of my local pc's |
| 08:11 | <@planetmaker> | windows? linux? |
| 08:11 | <Fremen> | windows |
| 08:11 | <@planetmaker> | have the server run the game. save it. load it. |
| 08:11 | <@planetmaker> | Does it work? |
| 08:12 | <@planetmaker> | if step 1 fails, use a save which works |
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| 08:12 | <Fremen> | none of the saves work I mean none loads the newGRF's :p |
| 08:12 | <Fremen> | that's the problem |
| 08:12 | <@planetmaker> | *sigh* |
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| 08:12 | <@planetmaker> | then you got no newgrfs installed there |
| 08:12 | <Fremen> | I have |
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| 08:12 | <Fremen> | that's why I don't understand |
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| 08:12 | <Fremen> | they are all there |
| 08:13 | <@planetmaker> | how do you know they're in the right directories? |
| 08:13 | <@planetmaker> | where's your server? where's the newgrfs? |
| 08:13 | <@planetmaker> | what's your openttd version? |
| 08:13 | <@planetmaker> | are they the same? |
| 08:13 | <Fremen> | i'm sure they are all the same |
| 08:13 | <Fremen> | as it's a savegame from 10am |
| 08:13 | <Fremen> | and I tried it at 11am |
| 08:14 | <@planetmaker> | what does the time have to do with versions and paths? |
| 08:14 | <Fremen> | I mean it's all in content_download/newgrf |
| 08:14 | <@planetmaker> | in which dir? |
| 08:14 | <@planetmaker> | full dir, full path, please |
| 08:14 | <@planetmaker> | also of the openttd.exe |
| 08:14 | <@planetmaker> | and of how you start the server |
| 08:15 | <@planetmaker> | I'm quite sure you messed up paths somehow. |
| 08:15 | <@planetmaker> | After all you tried to start a 2nd one there now... |
| 08:15 | <@planetmaker> | you must have changed some things |
| 08:15 | <Fremen> | I didn't :p |
| 08:15 | <Fremen> | I didn't change a thing |
| 08:15 | <Fremen> | just a 2nd cfg fil |
| 08:15 | <Fremen> | file* |
| 08:16 | <@planetmaker> | see |
| 08:16 | <Fremen> | which is a copy of the oteh rone just with a password and ports changed |
| 08:16 | <@planetmaker> | that is a change. A significant one. Or can be |
| 08:16 | <Fremen> | and i'm loading teh autosave on startup |
| 08:17 | <@planetmaker> | Sorry, can't help you |
| 08:17 | <Fremen> | guess I should just shut down the other server :p |
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| 08:17 | <Fremen> | or load the game there |
| 08:17 | <Fremen> | shit will be solved :p |
| 08:18 | <@planetmaker> | I need more info, don't get them and it's all totally confusing, I'm afraid |
| 08:18 | <Fremen> | well I don't blame you, I just can't follow why he would look in another path this time around |
| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | start by actually describing your problem in full. Not just the symptom of "doesn't work". Quote full paths. full commands. |
| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | They DO matter |
| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | even when YOU don't see it |
| 08:19 | <Fremen> | "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D -g save/joost1.sav -c openTTD2.cfg |
| 08:20 | <Fremen> | that's how I start it |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | and how before? |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | leave out the "save" |
| 08:20 | <Fremen> | ow I get way less errors this time |
| 08:21 | <Fremen> | the rcon update commands etc seem to have helped... |
| 08:21 | <Fremen> | "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D |
| 08:21 | <@planetmaker> | ... |
| 08:21 | <Fremen> | still error though, 3 with incompatible versions |
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| 08:22 | <Fremen> | from things I don't even know what they are |
| 08:22 | <Fremen> | watertower something |
| 08:23 | <@planetmaker> | as long as your *savegame* doesn't use them, it doesn't matter. If your savegame *DOES* use them, you *should* know what they are |
| 08:23 | <Fremen> | I don't recognize teh variables :s |
| 08:23 | <Fremen> | long_vehicle_introduction_date |
| 08:24 | <Fremen> | i can join the server and everythign looks fine |
| 08:24 | <Fremen> | of course can be something that is screwed up underneath |
| 08:26 | <Fremen> | ah well I'm too stupid for this stuff, I'm hapy with this result :p |
| 08:26 | <Fremen> | shouldn't be happening again anyway |
| 08:28 | <@planetmaker> | why not? |
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| 08:28 | <Fremen> | akay ! |
| 08:28 | <Fremen> | okay |
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| 08:29 | <Fremen> | it's indeed about the paths, it uses the games root instead of the folder where all the cfg files etc are |
| 08:29 | <Fremen> | that content folder has now like every newgrf that is available online :p |
| 08:30 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 08:30 | <Fremen> | damn Windows |
| 08:30 | <Fremen> | :p |
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| 08:30 | <@planetmaker> | those problems are not windows-specific |
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| 08:31 | <Fremen> | well that game makes a folder in mydocuments |
| 08:31 | <@planetmaker> | yes, it does |
| 08:31 | <Fremen> | but when loading an autosave etc it does use the game folder |
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| 08:32 | <@planetmaker> | iff you place the cfg next to the exe. And call the exe from its own directory. Then, and only then, it should put all stuff local to that binary (but still read newgrfs also from the global MyDocuments folder) |
| 08:33 | <Fremen> | I see ! |
| 08:33 | <Fremen> | both servers are now running |
| 08:33 | <Fremen> | I can smell autosave overwritings incoming but i'll live with that :) |
| 08:34 | <@planetmaker> | yes, that'll happen, if you use the same binary... |
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| 08:34 | <@planetmaker> | that's why I usually recommend to have a separate binary for each server |
| 08:34 | <Fremen> | goind to do that now |
| 08:34 | <Fremen> | g* |
| 08:34 | <@planetmaker> | which then has a separate cfg next to it. And also a separate save/autosave folder |
| 08:34 | <Fremen> | ye |
| 08:35 | <@planetmaker> | And the content_download folders... windows sucks. It doesn't allow proper links. |
| 08:35 | <Fremen> | makes sense, it's just that i'm too lazy sometimes :p |
| 08:35 | <Fremen> | I'm too lazy to try linux, i really should do it soon |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | why should you? |
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| 08:37 | <Fremen> | cause I'm tired of windows :p |
| 08:37 | <Fremen> | can't have firefox open for one day, it generates memory leaks of 2GB etc |
| 08:37 | <Fremen> | I'm pretty sure that's Windows related and not firefox :p |
| 08:38 | <Fremen> | stuff like that annoys me |
| 08:38 | <@planetmaker> | like... I setup windows. started linux setup. Destroyed all partitions. Setup windows again, installed linux. installed another linux with working network driver. Looking now for a way to fix the display driver |
| 08:38 | <@planetmaker> | that was my day yesterday ;-) |
| 08:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that sounds truly crazy :p |
| 08:38 | <Fremen> | bah :p |
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| 08:39 | <Fremen> | I'm trying to do everything to get out of the IT jobs, but it follows me everywhere, tired of it for years now :s |
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| 08:42 | <dihedral> | Fremen, what would you rather do? |
| 08:42 | <Fremen> | something vreative |
| 08:42 | <Fremen> | creative |
| 08:42 | <dihedral> | ... IT :-D |
| 08:42 | <FLHerne> | planetmaker: Have you had Windows' overzealous disk-decorrupting thing wipe your Linux partition yet? :P |
| 08:43 | <Fremen> | nah for me that's not creative, it paralyzes my mind |
| 08:43 | <dihedral> | ah - then you are not in the correct area of IT :-P |
| 08:44 | <@planetmaker> | FLHerne, not really. But it might be related that I only very rarely run windows. Like privately not during the last 5 years or so |
| 08:44 | <@planetmaker> | except in a VM |
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| 08:47 | <Fremen> | I creatd board and cardgames as a hobby, I want to do something similar as my job, but ofc that's extremely hard |
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| 08:55 | <Asteconn> | Fremen: Self publish =3 |
| 08:56 | <Asteconn> | I'm doing that with a pen and paper RPG I'm writing for the hell of it presently |
| 08:56 | <Fremen> | well that's the intention |
| 08:57 | <Fremen> | it's doable with a cardgame, less so with a boardgame to start with :) |
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| 09:24 | <NGC3982> | Afternoon. |
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| 09:43 | <Asteconn> | Fremen: Not too difficult if you publish print-it-yourself PDFs |
| 09:43 | <Asteconn> | You should also take a look at www.latech.co.uk/rpg =3 |
| 09:44 | <Fremen> | well I'm planning to used artscow and thegamecrafter, I can even make money out of it |
| 09:44 | <Fremen> | but that' snot the important part ofc |
| 09:44 | <Fremen> | I have my prototype printed by printerstudio, which is awesome |
| 09:45 | <Asteconn> | Awesome |
| 09:46 | <Asteconn> | My game is still in alpha, and is about 50% complete. Although it /is/ about 90% playable |
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| 09:46 | <Fremen> | game is in alpha as well, but i needed some prototypes with basic art |
| 09:46 | <Fremen> | people seem to like that art though which is already great :p |
| 09:47 | <Fremen> | when I got some 'basic' playtesting and tweaking done I'll contact foreign people to test it out |
| 09:48 | <Fremen> | wot you even have lore ;) |
| 09:53 | <@Terkhen> | oooh, weekend |
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| 09:56 | <@Belugas> | hello |
| 09:57 | <KasperVld> | Hi |
| 09:57 | <@Belugas> | hihi |
| 09:57 | <KasperVld> | Why hello there :3 |
| 09:58 | <KasperVld> | well, let's get the party started shall we? |
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| 10:02 | <@Terkhen> | hi Belugas and KasperVld |
| 10:02 | <KasperVld> | hello |
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| 10:06 | <@Belugas> | Terkhen :D |
| 10:06 | <@Belugas> | it's FRIDAY! |
| 10:06 | <Fremen> | "Sure, you can remove everything." |
| 10:06 | <Fremen> | "Ok." me clicks remove all |
| 10:06 | <Fremen> | "But leave the root files for now." |
| 10:06 | <Fremen> | aight :s |
| 10:07 | <@Terkhen> | Belugas: I agree, FRIDAY!! |
| 10:07 | <KasperVld> | I disagree, but that's probably because Im still effed over from all those night shifts |
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| 10:33 | <Asteconn> | Fremen: Yep =] I even have lore |
| 10:33 | <Asteconn> | It's in the process of being written - I concentrated firstly on the system itself |
| 10:33 | <Asteconn> | Still needs some work mind you o.o |
| 10:35 | <Fremen> | my games tend to be overcomplicated so I'm now working on something that plays smooth and not too long |
| 10:36 | <Fremen> | I tend to overcomplicate stuff and disturd the flow |
| 10:36 | <Fremen> | disturb |
| 10:36 | <Fremen> | but it's nothing like RPG's, that's not my thing |
| 10:38 | <Fremen> | I'm working on a website now, it's finally taking soms shape :p |
| 10:38 | <Fremen> | some* |
| 10:49 | <Asteconn> | protip on a website: use a CMS |
| 10:49 | <Asteconn> | Personally I'd recommend drupal |
| 10:50 | <Asteconn> | You can get a free one at drupal gardens actually |
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| 11:07 | <@Alberth> | moin |
| 11:08 | <@Terkhen> | hi Alberth |
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| --- | Log | closed Fri Aug 31 11:31:18 2012 |
| --- | Log | opened Fri Aug 31 11:31:24 2012 |
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| 11:31 | -!- | Irssi: #openttd: Total of 110 nicks [8 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 100 normal] |
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| 12:02 | <@Alberth> | quak |
| 12:02 | <frosch123> | moin :) |
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| 12:05 | <@Alberth> | lol "yeah, the cargo transport window is mostly useless" :) |
| 12:08 | <frosch123> | excel integration? |
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| 12:43 | <@planetmaker> | so... it takes 2 half days to get debian running on a somewhat new system... |
| 12:43 | <@planetmaker> | and basically using loads of backports |
| 12:44 | <frosch123> | your first installation? |
| 12:44 | <@planetmaker> | of debian: yes |
| 12:44 | <@planetmaker> | felt (and feel) like a total noob. |
| 12:44 | <frosch123> | yeah, weird hardware can delay installations :) |
| 12:44 | <@planetmaker> | centos and suse seem to work easier in that respect |
| 12:45 | <@planetmaker> | yes... network and graphics were what took quite a bit time. |
| 12:45 | <frosch123> | no idea about centos; suse has not impressed me |
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| 12:46 | <@planetmaker> | well; they work at least more with a somewhat more friendly GUI. while I had to wade mostly through apt-get... which is ok, but... |
| 12:46 | <@planetmaker> | ... nothing you can ask a user which just wants it working |
| 12:47 | <frosch123> | why does "gnu gpl steam greenlight" result in so useless search results? |
| 12:48 | <@planetmaker> | the usefulness of results is proportional to the forum and e-mail "steam" about it ;-) |
| 12:49 | <@planetmaker> | *inversely proportional |
| 12:49 | <frosch123> | well, maybe i should delete all my cookies |
| 12:49 | <frosch123> | sometimes i think my search results are totally screwed because google knows me too well :) |
| 12:49 | <frosch123> | e.g. tt-forums showed up with that search querry |
| 12:50 | <@planetmaker> | we also have at least two people suggesting that via e-mail |
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| 12:54 | <frosch123> | well, wrt. the forum discussion... _if_ ottd is allowed on steam, it should be uploaded by someone of us |
| 12:54 | <frosch123> | if a random user upload it, it is unlikely to receive proper updates |
| 12:55 | <frosch123> | i am having a hard time to find proper legel stuff for greenlight, but at least it seems to have a bananas-like term of "only developers/owners may add stuff" |
| 13:00 | <frosch123> | though argueably in about every discussion thread about greenlight, openttd is mentioned on the first two pages :p |
| 13:00 | <@Terkhen> | I agree |
| 13:01 | <@Terkhen> | but yes, I didn't find the terms of use either |
| 13:01 | <frosch123> | rumors say, ottd was already denied by them due not being uploaded by the developers |
| 13:01 | <frosch123> | but i don't see anyone of us uploading it, without knowing whether it is gpl compatible :) |
| 13:01 | <@Terkhen> | I saw some tweets mentioning that it was suggested, but I wasn't able to find it at greenlight, i also assumed that it was deleted |
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| 13:02 | <frosch123> | i found some news that steam will shortly get a linux client, because they feel treated by win 8 :p |
| 13:03 | <@Terkhen> | yes, I have been following all related news because I like many valve games... being free of wine for them would be great |
| 13:04 | <@Terkhen> | it seems that they have been actively helping graphics card driver developers too |
| 13:04 | <frosch123> | no idea, i only played hl and cs |
| 13:04 | <frosch123> | though i am not sure whether the latter counts as valve |
| 13:04 | <frosch123> | i am not aware of any other valve game i might have played |
| 13:04 | <@Terkhen> | I'm mostly with tf2 and portal 2 |
| 13:05 | <@Terkhen> | the upload form has a bananas-esque checkbox asking if you have rights to sell the game you are proposing |
| 13:06 | <frosch123> | hmm, good point, i should have checked the upload stuff for tos |
| 13:06 | <frosch123> | but i assume you already did :) |
| 13:06 | <@Terkhen> | I can find user terms of use and a legal note about copyright infringement, but nothing about the tos of the upload itself |
| 13:06 | <frosch123> | yip |
| 13:10 | <@Terkhen> | I can't find anything, let me check the forums |
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| 13:15 | <@Terkhen> | this reminds me that maybe we should take ownership of this http://www.desura.com/games/openttd |
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| 13:21 | <+glx> | frosch123: valve started to port source to linux (ubuntu only for now) |
| 13:21 | <+glx> | and they were surprised it was faster than under windows |
| 13:22 | <+glx> | http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/ |
| 13:22 | <Nat_aS> | Windows 8 will be the death of microsoft |
| 13:22 | <Nat_aS> | unix will be the new gaming platform |
| 13:22 | <Nat_aS> | valve will solve all the unix gaming issues |
| 13:23 | <Nat_aS> | by yelling at hardware manufacturers |
| 13:23 | <@Terkhen> | as proven in the past, it would take more than a crappy windows version for that |
| 13:23 | <frosch123> | well, borland died trying to support linux :p |
| 13:23 | <@Terkhen> | even if this one is specially crappy |
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| 13:23 | <Nat_aS> | I'm stickin with seven |
| 13:23 | <frosch123> | isn't every second windows version crap? |
| 13:23 | <+glx> | indeed :) |
| 13:23 | <Nat_aS> | but I think I'm gonna buy a new computer for ubuntu 12 |
| 13:23 | <frosch123> | like as if they are alternating two dev teams :p |
| 13:24 | <Nat_aS> | frosch123, I'll believe that |
| 13:24 | <frosch123> | same applies for linux, kde 3 and gnome 2 are great, kde 4 and gnome 3 are crap |
| 13:24 | <@Terkhen> | 95, millenium, vista, 8... sounds like you are right |
| 13:24 | <frosch123> | i hope it gets solved with kde 5 and gnome 4 :) |
| 13:24 | <Nat_aS> | 98, 2000, XP, 7 |
| 13:25 | <Nat_aS> | lots of things have shitty odd numbers |
| 13:25 | <@Terkhen> | right now I'm using 7; I'm not switching back to linux until I see some proper support for optimus, which my new laptop uses |
| 13:25 | <frosch123> | 2000 is a nt series, i guess you have to exclude that one |
| 13:25 | <Nat_aS> | it happens a lot in game series |
| 13:25 | <@Terkhen> | yes, I was excluding 2000 |
| 13:25 | <Nat_aS> | it's not? |
| 13:26 | <+glx> | 2000 is an xp for servers |
| 13:26 | <+glx> | almost |
| 13:27 | <__ln__> | 2003 is an xp for servers |
| 13:27 | <__ln__> | isn't 2000 more like nt for desktops |
| 13:28 | <+glx> | it's definitely a non "casual" user version |
| 13:28 | <Nat_aS> | as for unix killing bordland |
| 13:28 | <__ln__> | not for home desktops maybe, but business desktops |
| 13:28 | <Nat_aS> | I think if any company can do it, it will be valve |
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| 13:30 | <@Yexo> | can I interest anyone in playing a H2H / NoCarGoal game tonight? |
| 13:30 | <@Terkhen> | Nat_aS: I don't think that a game company such as valve is interested in supporting the complete linux ecosystem, with all their distributions and so on |
| 13:31 | <+glx> | Terkhen: the first step is ubuntu |
| 13:31 | <Nat_aS> | well that's kind of impossible |
| 13:31 | <@Terkhen> | best case scenario, they support only ubuntu |
| 13:31 | <@Terkhen> | worst case scenario, they try to create their own distro :P |
| 13:31 | <Nat_aS> | the idea is the complete ecosystem, makes there own damn suport |
| 13:31 | <@Terkhen> | Yexo: count me in :D |
| 13:31 | <Nat_aS> | Ppppppht |
| 13:32 | <Nat_aS> | if they only officaly support Ubuntu |
| 13:32 | <@Terkhen> | Nat_aS: I know how it works, but that does not means the company wants to work that way |
| 13:32 | <@Terkhen> | maybe I'm a pessimistic :P |
| 13:32 | <Nat_aS> | but document everything and leave it open, then everyone else can do the work themselves |
| 13:32 | <Nat_aS> | it will only work well on ubuntu |
| 13:32 | <Nat_aS> | but it could be hacked into other things |
| 13:32 | <frosch123> | Terkhen: they just have to statically link everything :p |
| 13:32 | <Nat_aS> | I mean they only have to close the parts that cost money |
| 13:33 | <frosch123> | ottd generic build also runs everywhere, doesn't it? |
| 13:33 | <+glx> | http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/steamd-penguins/ <-- 4th paragraph |
| 13:33 | <@Terkhen> | glx: nice :D |
| 13:33 | <+glx> | frosch123: yes with all libs statically linked |
| 13:34 | <@Terkhen> | I'll probably run xubuntu for a while anyways, until I get bored of it and look for something more bleeding edge again |
| 13:35 | <@Terkhen> | then I'll get bored of having to fix stuff weekly and go back to ubuntu |
| 13:35 | <Nat_aS> | lol |
| 13:35 | <@Terkhen> | following my usual pattern |
| 13:35 | <@Terkhen> | :P |
| 13:35 | <Nat_aS> | Why does nothing work in the future! |
| 13:36 | <Nat_aS> | I run windows on new computers and then install ubuntu on them when they get old |
| 13:36 | <Nat_aS> | but I want a new computer to run ubuntu on, I'm just afraid of hardware issues if I try to install it on a new computer |
| 13:36 | <Nat_aS> | what's a good computer for unix? |
| 13:36 | <Nat_aS> | laptop wise |
| 13:37 | <__ln__> | a macbook |
| 13:37 | <Nat_aS> | but then I'd be giving money to apple |
| 13:37 | <@Terkhen> | just check the hardware specs before buying it... I bought mine from a small seller in spain and I know that linux already supports everything on it except optimus |
| 13:37 | <Nat_aS> | although I am intrested in ultrabooks |
| 13:37 | <@Terkhen> | IIRC retina looks horrible on linux |
| 13:37 | <Nat_aS> | the mac air would be the ideal if it were less expensive and not made by apple |
| 13:38 | <Nat_aS> | made of aluminum instead of plastic and no moving parts |
| 13:40 | <@Terkhen> | Nat_aS: get one of those tablets-with-keyboards that are appearing a lot lately :P |
| 13:40 | <Nat_aS> | I want a computer not a tablet though |
| 13:40 | <Nat_aS> | I hate moble OSes on anything that's not a phone |
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| 13:41 | <Wolf01> | evening |
| 13:41 | <@Terkhen> | hi Wolf01 |
| 13:41 | <@Terkhen> | Nat_aS: that's why I dislike unity, and will probably hate windows 8 |
| 13:41 | <Nat_aS> | can ubuntu 12 go back to Gnome? |
| 13:41 | <Nat_aS> | like 10 can? |
| 13:42 | <Nat_aS> | I'll try Unity, it's not as LOOK AT ME I'M A MOBILE OS as 8 is |
| 13:42 | <__ln__> | Nat_aS: i don't think you're going to find a laptop more suitable for unix from any other manufacturer. |
| 13:42 | <Nat_aS> | and it's still a PC Os |
| 13:42 | <Nat_aS> | even if it's optomized for touchscreens |
| 13:42 | <Nat_aS> | what about Samsung? |
| 13:42 | <Nat_aS> | they are pretty much the same thing |
| 13:42 | <Nat_aS> | :v |
| 13:42 | <Nat_aS> | legaly speaking |
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| 13:43 | <@Terkhen> | Nat_aS: http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/05/ubuntu-1210-will-have-gnome-shell.html |
| 13:43 | <Nat_aS> | ahh |
| 13:43 | <@Terkhen> | I'll stick with XFCE |
| 13:43 | <Nat_aS> | nice to see it when a company bends to consumer preasure |
| 13:44 | <@Terkhen> | I dislike Gnome 3, I'm never able to get used to KDE and I hate unity |
| 13:44 | <Kjetil> | Gnome 3 is horrible |
| 13:44 | <Nat_aS> | why? |
| 13:45 | <frosch123> | [19:40] <Nat_aS> I hate moble OSes on anything that's not a phone <- that's why |
| 13:45 | <@planetmaker> | hm... 32 seconds real build time for OpenTTD. I like that :D |
| 13:45 | <Kjetil> | It doesn't fit my workflow where I have multiple open programs which I use at the same time |
| 13:45 | <frosch123> | gnome 3 is touchscreen-ish |
| 13:45 | <@Terkhen> | whenever I use gnome 3, I'm always desiring that I had a proper desktop to place icons and stuff |
| 13:45 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: -j what? |
| 13:45 | <@planetmaker> | 9 |
| 13:46 | <frosch123> | :p |
| 13:46 | <@Alberth> | just -j :) |
| 13:46 | <@Terkhen> | I'm also forced to use the mouse for everything |
| 13:46 | <@Terkhen> | except for writing in the search box |
| 13:46 | <@Terkhen> | urgh |
| 13:46 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 13:46 | <@Terkhen> | I have not tested how fast I can compile openttd on my new laptop |
| 13:46 | <@Terkhen> | let's see |
| 13:46 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: i only use -j 5, and the disk is the bottleneck :s |
| 13:47 | <@Alberth> | buy more RAM :) |
| 13:47 | <frosch123> | i have enough ram |
| 13:47 | <Nat_aS> | technacly windows 7 is touchscreenish |
| 13:47 | <Nat_aS> | having big buttons does not make it a mobile os |
| 13:47 | <frosch123> | but i think my disk scheduler is bad :) |
| 13:48 | <@Alberth> | if you have enough ram, you'd run everything from the disk cache, don't you? |
| 13:49 | <frosch123> | Nat_aS: the question is whether all context menus have been removed, and all menus are reduced to say 5 items with huge font, basically removing all useful (though less mainstream) stuff |
| 13:49 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123: I guess the disk is here the bottleneck,too |
| 13:49 | <@Terkhen> | 1m23s... which is roughly the same than in my old laptop |
| 13:49 | <frosch123> | Alberth: it has to write it to disk or so |
| 13:49 | <@Alberth> | frosch123: bummer :( |
| 13:50 | <frosch123> | anyway, i have 2gb per core, so if that is not enough, it's the os fault :p |
| 13:50 | <@Terkhen> | I guess that using windows, the ancient version of bash/make included in mingw and not using the SSD are to blame |
| 13:50 | <frosch123> | but i never felt like trying different io schedulers |
| 13:50 | <@Alberth> | Terkhen: I'd blame "using windows" :p |
| 13:51 | <@Terkhen> | that's the biggest problem of the list, yes :P |
| 13:51 | <frosch123> | 40s for debug=3 build here |
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| 13:53 | <frosch123> | 55s for optimised build |
| 13:53 | <@Alberth> | mine take much longer, my machine is old :) |
| 13:54 | <frosch123> | define "old" :) |
| 13:54 | <frosch123> | mine is about 2 years i believe |
| 13:54 | <Kjetil> | Is it a VAX ? |
| 13:54 | <frosch123> | though i can never remember :p |
| 13:56 | <frosch123> | and, yeah -j 9 results in the same time as -j 5 :p |
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| 13:57 | <@Alberth> | 6 years |
| 13:58 | <@Alberth> | runing more than 1+<number of cores> jobs is not very useful in general :) |
| 13:58 | <frosch123> | the difficulty is how to count virtual cores :p |
| 13:58 | <frosch123> | though luckily i have none :) |
| 13:59 | <@Alberth> | that simplifies the problem quite a lot :) |
| 14:00 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: you should check whether lower -j numbers make any difference :) |
| 14:00 | <frosch123> | also, did you do debug or release build? |
| 14:01 | <Nat_aS> | of all the |
| 14:01 | <Nat_aS> | "Ultrabooks" listed on Newegg |
| 14:01 | <Nat_aS> | only 7 of them actualy have SSDs |
| 14:01 | <Nat_aS> | IT'S NOT AN ULTRABOOK IF IT HAS A HDD |
| 14:02 | <@Alberth> | tell the manufacturers that :) |
| 14:02 | <Nat_aS> | what's the point of a buzword if it dosn't specify anything |
| 14:02 | <@Terkhen> | Nat_aS: I saw many "high performance gaming laptops" with a 5,400 rpm HDD |
| 14:02 | <@Terkhen> | not 7200, let alone SSD |
| 14:03 | <@Yexo> | I thought "ultrabook" was just about the size of the thing |
| 14:03 | <@Yexo> | what has ssd/hdd to do with it? |
| 14:03 | <+glx> | <@Terkhen> I guess that using windows, the ancient version of bash/make included in mingw and not using the SSD are to blame <-- disk accesses on windows are slow |
| 14:03 | <Nat_aS> | well high preformance gaming just means it has a good graphics card |
| 14:03 | <@Terkhen> | moar powah |
| 14:04 | <Nat_aS> | Ultrabook means a laptop that does not compromise on portability and power. Specificaly using some technologies that Intel thinks are cool |
| 14:04 | <Nat_aS> | such as SSDs and cloud storage |
| 14:05 | <Nat_aS> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrabook |
| 14:05 | <Nat_aS> | it's defined by intel |
| 14:07 | <Nat_aS> | if you remove the search term ultrabook, you actualy get more laptops that fit the ultrabook description better |
| 14:07 | <Nat_aS> | by just searching for laptops with only SSDs |
| 14:10 | <frosch123> | glx: depends completely on the filesystem |
| 14:12 | <@Terkhen> | the choices for that on windows are not very stellar :) |
| 14:13 | <Kjetil> | FAT64 is the fa(s)test |
| 14:14 | <frosch123> | i ran the popular "grf2html"-disk-benchmark test (creation of lots of small files), and it turned out that fat16 << ext3 << ntfs |
| 14:14 | <frosch123> | 5 years ago :) |
| 14:14 | <frosch123> | comparing xp and gentoo |
| 14:14 | <@Yexo> | so which was fastest? fat16 or ntfs? |
| 14:14 | <frosch123> | ntfs |
| 14:15 | <frosch123> | 153.4s on fat16 (16k clusters), 52.7s on ext3, 44.5s on ntfs |
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| 14:16 | <frosch123> | though the linux text used wine |
| 14:16 | <frosch123> | so, that might have impacted it badly |
| 14:16 | <frosch123> | *test |
| 14:16 | <frosch123> | and fat16 used 3 times more disk space, due to the bad cluster size |
| 14:16 | <Chris_Booth> | why not fat32? |
| 14:17 | <frosch123> | i guess i had no fat32 disk to test :p |
| 14:17 | <Chris_Booth> | lol |
| 14:17 | <frosch123> | don't ask why i had a fat16 disk :p |
| 14:17 | <Chris_Booth> | I would be interested in how fast HSF+ is compared to NTFS |
| 14:17 | <frosch123> | i also had no ext4 or reiserfs disk :) |
| 14:18 | <frosch123> | (above test is about creating 18929 small files, with 39 MB total size) |
| 14:19 | <frosch123> | so, it filled 1/3 of the fat16 disk or so :p |
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| 14:21 | <frosch123> | oh, i also have numbers for the native linux port |
| 14:21 | <frosch123> | apparently ext3 was way faster than ntfs then :) |
| 14:22 | <frosch123> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grf2html/repository/entry/osspecific.pas#L138 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grf2html/repository/entry/osspecific.pas#L247 |
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| 14:24 | <frosch123> | damn, what pain must have been to make delphi and freepascal produce png :p |
| 14:25 | <frosch123> | why did noone port it to c++ ? |
| 14:25 | <Wolf01> | bbl |
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| 14:28 | <frosch123> | [19:30] <Yexo> can I interest anyone in playing a H2H / NoCarGoal game tonight? <- was there any result wrt. that? |
| 14:28 | <@Yexo> | Terkhen was interested, I asked pm to set up a game in the usual channel but no reaction to that yet |
| 14:29 | <@Yexo> | I'm preparing a game right now |
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| 14:33 | <@Terkhen> | I'll be ready for playing in half an hour or so :) |
| 14:33 | <Rubidium> | sounds interesting |
| 14:34 | <Kjetil> | NoCarGoal ? |
| 14:34 | <@Yexo> | #openttdcoop.nightly channel |
| 14:34 | <@Yexo> | Kjetil: it's a goal script where you have to transport x amount of cargo in x years |
| 14:34 | <Rubidium> | h2h + nocargoal, right? |
| 14:35 | <@Yexo> | yep |
| 14:35 | <Kjetil> | And if you don't you loose ? |
| 14:35 | <@Yexo> | Kjetil: yes |
| 14:35 | <Kjetil> | Sounds fun |
| 14:35 | <@Yexo> | also in this case we're mixing it with a patch called "head-to-head" |
| 14:35 | <@Yexo> | it gives each company a separate copy of the exact same map |
| 14:35 | <@Yexo> | http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/comp.png <- see that |
| 14:36 | <@Yexo> | you can see what every company is doing but only build in your own area |
| 14:36 | <Kjetil> | heh. A lot has changed since I played around with ottd |
| 14:37 | <@Yexo> | this is not yet in any stable/nightly release ;) |
| 14:37 | <@Yexo> | as a patch it has existed for a very long time |
| 14:37 | <Kjetil> | Are new goals continously added ? |
| 14:37 | <@Yexo> | anyone can add goals via a scripting API |
| 14:38 | * | Kjetil was thinking more along the lines of new goals being generated when the old ones expire |
| 14:38 | <@Yexo> | ah, no, not yet |
| 14:38 | <Rubidium> | though you could relatively easily code that |
| 14:38 | <@Yexo> | but feel free to suggest that: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=62212 |
| 14:40 | <Kjetil> | Alltough I guess there are some issues with longrunning games in a H2H-scenario. (Where to place new industries etc) |
| 14:41 | <Rubidium> | Yexo: 64x2048x4 crashes h2h |
| 14:42 | <@Yexo> | Rubidium: known issue |
| 14:42 | <@Yexo> | 2048x64x4 should work |
| 14:42 | <@Yexo> | map size you specify is map size for each player |
| 14:42 | <@Yexo> | but the total still has to fit within 2048x2048 |
| 14:42 | <@Yexo> | abandoning map generation also causes crashes |
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| 14:44 | <Rubidium> | though 64x2048x4 doesn't reach MapSize() yet, which is what it asserts on |
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| 14:46 | <Wolf01> | thunderstorm ;) |
| 14:47 | <@Alberth> | welcome |
| 14:47 | <@Yexo> | Rubidium: for me it errors out with "Invalid map size" (map.cpp:59) |
| 14:48 | <Rubidium> | hmm, the second time it did that |
| 14:48 | <Rubidium> | Error: Assertion failed at line 76 of /home/rubidium/openttd/special/head-to-head.hg/src/tile_map.h: tile < MapSize() |
| 14:48 | <Rubidium> | that's the first time |
| 14:50 | <Rubidium> | start -> new map 256x256x1 -> intro -> new map 256x256x4 -> intro -> new map 2048x64x4 |
| 14:50 | <Rubidium> | although... |
| 14:51 | <Rubidium> | looks like a second or third x4 map crashes with the assert |
| 14:51 | <Rubidium> | as in: new map -> abandon cycle |
| 14:51 | <Rubidium> | oh, for greenlight you first need to buy a steam game |
| 14:52 | <@Yexo> | are you abandoning map generation or going back after it has completed? |
| 14:52 | <Rubidium> | after it is completed |
| 14:54 | <frosch123> | Rubidium: you need to buy a game to be able to upload one? |
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| 14:54 | <Rubidium> | frosch123: https://addictedgamer.net/p/Steam-Greenlight-lets-you-pick-which-games-end-up-on-Steam-by-Joystiq |
| 14:54 | <Rubidium> | last paragraph, second sentence |
| 14:55 | <Squire> | Seems reasonable |
| 14:56 | <Squire> | Personally i'd rather see more professional game choices up there. I've seen Zoo Tycoon 2 and Faces of War, but Faces of War is more or less identical to it's sequel Men of War anyway |
| 14:57 | <Squire> | There's a lot of frankly crap "indie" games on their list so far, most of which I wouldn't pay a penny for |
| 14:57 | <Rubidium> | Yexo: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1677/ |
| 14:58 | <@Yexo> | ah :( |
| 14:58 | <@Yexo> | I've seen that one before |
| 14:58 | <Rubidium> | @base 10 16 65047 |
| 14:58 | <@DorpsGek> | Rubidium: FE17 |
| 14:59 | <Rubidium> | Squire: I was just implying that I wouldn't be uploading it there |
| 15:00 | <Rubidium> | though *if* they ask whether you may legally sell the content instead of whether you are the owner of it, then basically everyone may upload it |
| 15:00 | <Rubidium> | if not, then who is the owner?!? |
| 15:05 | <argoneus> | is it hard to implement your own A* algorithm in openttd? |
| 15:05 | <argoneus> | a simple one that works |
| 15:05 | <Rubidium> | in what context? |
| 15:06 | <Rubidium> | in an AI/GS? |
| 15:06 | <Rubidium> | or in the C++ code? |
| 15:06 | <@Yexo> | I've seen that one before |
| 15:06 | <Rubidium> | in the latter it's about as hard as it is for any implementation in C++, and for the former about as hard as it is for a scripting language |
| 15:07 | <@Yexo> | but in both cases: a high quality implementation already exists that you can reuse |
| 15:07 | <argoneus> | AI/GS |
| 15:07 | <@Yexo> | I don't see any reason to implement A* in either case |
| 15:07 | <Rubidium> | though implementing it sounds pointless since there are already implementations |
| 15:07 | <argoneus> | yeah there are |
| 15:07 | <argoneus> | but as I want to study programming |
| 15:07 | <argoneus> | I feel like implementing it myself could give me a better idea of it |
| 15:07 | <argoneus> | I mean |
| 15:08 | <argoneus> | if I was making a commercial application |
| 15:08 | <argoneus> | I'd re-use as much as possible because I need it stable |
| 15:08 | <argoneus> | but doing this could be a nice personal experience, no? |
| 15:08 | <@Yexo> | implementing A* is not very complicated, but then I don't know how much experience with programming you have |
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| 15:08 | <@Yexo> | if it's your first program I'd advise against starting with an AI/GS in OpenTTD, since they're hard to debug |
| 15:10 | <argoneus> | oh |
| 15:10 | <argoneus> | I wanted to make it in openttd because I thought it'd be easy to debug |
| 15:10 | <argoneus> | I mean, the railway either is there or isn't |
| 15:10 | <argoneus> | if I wanted to do it in C++, I'd need to implement a graphical grid myself |
| 15:10 | <argoneus> | so I thought this'd be simpler |
| 15:11 | <@planetmaker> | of course it's there or not there. But... that's the hard way of debugging :-) |
| 15:11 | <@Yexo> | that's true, but on the other hand there is no good way to set breakpoints or get the values of variables while your script is running |
| 15:11 | <@Alberth> | make a text grid instead |
| 15:11 | <@planetmaker> | lol. write with tracks on the map :D |
| 15:11 | <Kjetil> | haha |
| 15:12 | <Wolf01> | gah, thunderstorm again :( |
| 15:13 | <@Alberth> | Wolf01: it likes you, apparently |
| 15:13 | <Wolf01> | I would like it if I could be able to use it for my UPS :P |
| 15:13 | <@Yexo> | Kjetil: but don't let any of us stop you if you want to try it :) |
| 15:14 | <@Yexo> | if it's for learning and you have fun, why not? |
| 15:16 | <argoneus> | Yexo: did you mean him or me? |
| 15:16 | <@Alberth> | probably you :) |
| 15:16 | <@Yexo> | argoneus: you :) |
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| 15:58 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: care for a nocargoal game? |
| 15:58 | <@Yexo> | we're in the planning stage right now, no building done yet |
| 15:59 | <andythenorth> | yes, although I'm very tired :) |
| 15:59 | <andythenorth> | might be more watch than play :P |
| 15:59 | <@Yexo> | doens't matter :) |
| 15:59 | <@Yexo> | nightly r24502, the usual channel |
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| 16:29 | <Squire> | pst. andythenorth likes to watch... |
| 16:31 | <@Terkhen> | nah, when he sees the action he can't help but join :P |
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| 16:35 | <Zuu> | Yexo et al: Agreed that debugging capabilities in OpenTTD doesn't come up to usual debuggers. But with FS#5206 it will be fairly easy to add GSController::Break() that will suspend the AI/GS from source. |
| 16:37 | <Zuu> | Its already possible for AIs to pause the game when AIController::Break() is called, just that noone have pushed a such patch for trunk. |
| 16:38 | <Zuu> | I know there was one patch to add more advanced debugging capabilities, but it was more or less just a "here it is, take it or leave it" patch on the forum. |
| 16:41 | <Zuu> | Or an AI/GS can use SuperLib.Helper.BreakPoint. It will put a sign on a tile and not return until that sign have been removed (by you) |
| 16:42 | <frosch123> | Zuu: we are playing, your fault :) |
| 16:42 | <Zuu> | Oh, that's why its so quiet :-) |
| 16:42 | <Zuu> | Oh, you use a new version with my fix. :-) |
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| 18:16 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
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| 18:19 | <andythenorth> | good night |
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| 18:19 | <@Yexo> | good night |
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| 18:45 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 19:25 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 20:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "samsung pays apple with 30 truckloads of 5¢ coins" ... i don't know, something in me screams "fake" at this headline |
| 20:09 | <+glx> | it's possible |
| 20:10 | <Nat_aS> | no it's not |
| 20:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it sounds unplausible. you don't just go to a bank and say "give me a ton of pennies", that means you must have built up a strategic reserve of coins over some time |
| 20:10 | <Nat_aS> | it's fake and deunked |
| 20:10 | <+glx> | I remember an ISP transmitting infos about IPs using printed paper |
| 20:11 | <Nat_aS> | Samsung does not have acess to a billion worth of Nickles |
| 20:11 | <Nat_aS> | not would 30 trucks be enough |
| 20:14 | <Nat_aS> | "according to the United States mint, the total volume of nickels produced in the year 2012 is 679.12 million nickels. At that rate, Samsung has just paid Apple roughly 29.5 years worth of Nickel coin production. " |
| 20:14 | <Nat_aS> | not to menton that samsung dosn't have to pay untill the judge rules |
| 20:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i once tried to pay at the dentists 10€ in coins. they sent me right out the door |
| 20:15 | <Nat_aS> | http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/31/3281361/debunking-apple-samsung-nickel-coin-story |
| 20:15 | <Nat_aS> | and yes, you can refuse currency |
| 20:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, there was a bank downstairs |
| 20:16 | <Nat_aS> | you would need ~1,360 trucks to transport a billion in nickles |
| 20:16 | <Nat_aS> | without violating California state laws |
| 20:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's a bit weird that he starts with volume. with anything solid metal, volume is practically irrelevant. weight is the limiting factor. |
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| --- | Log | closed Sat Sep 01 00:00:07 2012 |
