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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-10-11

---Logopened Thu Oct 11 00:00:39 2012
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02:39<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:34-!-mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
04:37<@peter1138>Czy mogę zadać pytanie na temat najnowszej wersji najnowszej?
04:38<szaman>chyab tak ale in english
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04:45<@peter1138>Ale ja lubię łamania zasad w temacie kanału
04:46<szaman>'lubisz łamanie' czy 'nie lubisz łamania' ?
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04:48<@peter1138>Lubisz łamanie, oczywiście :-)
04:49<@peter1138>Dobra, jestem znudzony Google Translate teraz.
04:50<szaman>you are the bored google translator now? :]
04:51<szaman>you can't use google translate to speak polish, it outputs garbage in most cases
04:51<szaman>like every slavic language i think
04:51<@peter1138>I know.
04:52<planetmaker>*every language ;-)
04:52<__ln__>it looked convincing though.
04:52<@peter1138>Exactly, planetmaker.
04:53<__ln__>Google should train their translator monkeys/gnomes better.
04:59<szaman>so we had our lesson, don't use google translate to translate openttd :]
05:11<@peter1138>Fish heads, fish heads, roly poly fish heads.
05:11<@peter1138>Fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!
05:12<planetmaker>szaman, that's why we usually only want native speakers to be translators (though we have no means to check that) :-)
05:12<szaman>peter1138: you mean to eat 'ukha' ? :]
05:13<@peter1138>The UK Housekeepers Association?
05:14<szaman>clear Russian soup, made from various types of fish, fish heads including
05:16<szaman>well, it looks like they don't know that fish heads are eated usually in soup
05:17<@peter1138>__ln__ to the rescue?
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05:26<@peter1138>There's no pirate translation :-(
05:29<NGC3982>fish heads are great for soup
05:30<@peter1138>Okay, so is there any good network games going on at the moment?
05:31<planetmaker>I think openttd is going on ;-)
05:31<@peter1138>Well I mean of OpenTTD, yes.
05:31<NGC3982> is empty, i guess.
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05:38<NGC3982>Wait what.
05:38<NGC3982>It's not even running.
05:38<NGC3982>I have broken something. ;_;
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05:46<@peter1138>That'll be why it's empty.
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05:54<__ln__>szaman: *eaten
05:54<__ln__>excuse my late appearance as i was having a lunch
05:56<NGC3982>What did you have?
05:56<szaman>__ln__: yep, i've realised but was too lazy to correct myself :P
05:58<__ln__>NGC3982: chinese food
05:58<NGC3982>Ah, nice.
05:59<NGC3982>Im going to have a sallad in a few minutes.
05:59<__ln__>and *I'm
05:59<NGC3982>I'm the only supervisor here today, and i don't think i'll have time to eat properly.
05:59<szaman>there is metallica song about salad
05:59<NGC3982>szaman: Enter sandman? *badum tiss*
06:00<szaman>I f*ck this! I f*ck that! Salad! Salad!
06:03<NGC3982>Mr Cabbagehead feels very offended.
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06:04<szaman>well, today is the day of Mr Fishhead, so i don't feel guilty
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06:54<@peter1138>hmm, #openttdcoop public server using a non-bananas newgrf :-(
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07:04<Knogle>I never understood that smiley, it looks like you've balls in your face.
07:21<fonsinchen>unicode kills smilies.
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>that is definitely _not_ a face...
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07:46<@planetmaker> I guess I'm trolling. But I enjoy it :-)
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08:20<@peter1138>It ain't that clever.
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you're playing on the "data" directory being replaced, that doesn't even make sense, because it is still being supported for backwards compatibility
08:48<dada__>hahaha he said "contact a developer for help" :)
08:48<dada__>not noticing the "openttd developer" user title
08:52<@planetmaker>dada__, he does know
08:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, not playing that (yet) :-P
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09:07<@peter1138>What are you "playing" on then?
09:09<@planetmaker>all the pitfalls in manual installation ;-) Nothing I said is invented. It's all a replay from cases I tried to help solve
09:11<@peter1138>I for one am very not impressed with devs trolling like that.
09:15<@planetmaker>yes. Sadly you don't handle all the support requests for manual installation and where to find non-bananas newgrfs either, though
09:16<@planetmaker>where this is an illustrations where things do go wrong. regularily
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09:20<@peter1138>Sir Belugas!
09:21<@Belugas>hi hi sir :)
09:23<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:25<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause: I provided a dirty hack? Hmm...
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: a veeeery long time ago
09:30<@Belugas>sir maker :)
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>[Di Nov 7 2006] [13:37:51] <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: maybe ;p
09:31<@peter1138>No longer there...
09:31<V453000>totally not shady and suspicious file name :D
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>i still have the file, but it's probably not very interesting
09:33<@peter1138>Ooh, nice :-)
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>also, it was posted at 13:37 ;)
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09:35<@peter1138>planetmaker, incidentally, I used to have some patches on the go that would've ultimately supported files contained in zip files...
09:35<@planetmaker>well... would be nice, if zips be treated as tars?
09:35<@peter1138>No because they're not.
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>temporarily uncompress zip, rar, xz, ... ?
09:36<@peter1138>But you probably mean transparently, which was the case.
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>./openttd: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory <-- i guess i'd have to recompile it :/
09:37<@peter1138>Originally I was thinking about mmaped file IO, but it's pointless because most of the time we copy stuff around into memory anyway.
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm... about two million warnings
09:40<@peter1138>Oh crap, sorry Belugas...
09:41*peter1138 copies a few audio files for previewing purposes.
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>hey, it actually runs
09:41<@Belugas>peter1138 : why are you sorry for? audio files? where?
09:41<@Belugas>ho... the stuff i sent you a while ago?
09:42<@peter1138>Seems I never got around to listening to much of it.
09:42<@peter1138>Last stuff was Led Zep, which was, er, 2010.
09:43<@peter1138>Good job this is only 30 second tasters of each track... *cough*
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12:27<__ln__>now in english:
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12:41<V453000>andythenorth: did the fruit cargo label in FIRS change?
12:42<V453000>FRUT doesnt seem to be correct, not sure if it was originally
12:42<V453000>but I think it worked
12:42<V453000>oh andy aint here :z
12:42<V453000>anyone knows? :)
12:43<V453000>k FRVG there we go
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13:02<DanMacK>Hey all
13:02<DanMacK>!seen andy
13:07<DanMacK>I'm a bit behind the times. You re-released your roundhouses yet?
13:07<@Alberth>DanMacK: andy was here at least yesterday
13:09<supermop>oh man
13:09<supermop>i haven't coded anything in so long
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13:09<supermop>and nml can't do stations
13:10<supermop>so working with that batch of nfo is really hard for me
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13:10<supermop>i don't think there is anyone looking to help code it for me either
13:10<@Alberth>extend nml with station support first :p
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13:11<supermop>i have no idea how to do that!
13:11<supermop>also as i told andy a week or so ago
13:11<supermop>getting frustrated drawing imaginary toy buildings for me is doubly annoying for me
13:12<supermop>as i am an architect who can't find work in architecture
13:12<supermop>am stuck in furniture
13:12<supermop>so slogging through train sheds or stations or houses just reminds me of that
13:13<supermop>so i sort of stopped
13:13<supermop>i only played the game again for the first time in a year or so a couple weeks ago
13:13<supermop>as i was on a flight and wanted to try out GS
13:14<DanMacK>I started playing again but the lack of time-period things irritated me, so I stopped :P
13:14<DanMacK>and started drawing again.
13:14<supermop>even though i don't work on newgrfs anymore
13:14<DanMacK>If I'm playing 1800 I don't want diesel cranes and stuff
13:15<supermop>i find i cant get through a game without wishing something was different
13:15<DanMacK>Same here
13:15<supermop>so i think about how i would prefer it to be
13:15<supermop>then think about how hard it would be to do that
13:15<supermop>then i just go read or go out for a beer
13:17<DanMacK>thought about period industries for FIRS?
13:17<supermop>i had an idea for one yesterday but it was silly
13:18<DanMacK>What was that?
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13:19<supermop>fufillment center
13:19<supermop>for 1995 or so on
13:19<supermop>accepts goods, produces mail
13:19<DanMacK>I like it
13:20<supermop>would be easy to draw as well - buildings like that are usually just steel or tilt-slab boxes
13:21<DanMacK>What are you waiting for? :P
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13:23<supermop>same thing i am waiting for to go to grad school, leave the city, start a design studio, etc
13:23<Wolf01>hello o/
13:24<@Alberth>oddink Wolf01
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13:28<supermop>i wish nml did bridges too
13:30<supermop>i thought yesterday about printing a dimetric grid on a piece of 11x17, putting it on my drawing board, then doing free hand pen sketches on tracing paper over it
13:34<DanMacK>to draw TTD buildings you mean?
13:35<supermop>or ttd-ish buildings
13:35<DanMacK>It works well
13:35<supermop>aiming for a house set etc might be too overwhelming
13:35<supermop>but if i have an idea sketch it out
13:35<DanMacK>Talk to Pikka, he may need a few buildinfs
13:36<supermop>later if i want to scan a shoebox full of thumbnail sketches i could hand someone the pngs
13:36<supermop>more like
13:36<supermop>i saw an interesting 60s/70s facade in chinatown a week or so ago
13:37<supermop>a bit out of place but looked very much like part of the tt world
13:37<DanMacK>Get a pic?
13:38<supermop>i could have just sketched it out without having to worry about all the views, construction stages, palette, and whether the scale or level of detail looked good
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24585 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2012-10-11 17:45:33 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 2 changes by arnau
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>french - 2 changes by glx
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 2 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 74 changes by myquartz
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14:13<dondaniel>where are you from
14:14<dondaniel>i from russia
14:14<dondaniel>you are beginner in open ttd
14:15<@Alberth>yeah, I only played it 10 years or so
14:15<__ln__>yeah, all of us have barely seen openttd
14:15<dondaniel>i have idea
14:16<dondaniel>to make the leage
14:16<dondaniel>of champions
14:16<__ln__>please write full sentences on one line
14:17<dondaniel>but i dont know how say for all tycoon players about this
14:17<dondaniel>can you help me??
14:18<@Alberth>many users read the site, you can post there
14:18<dondaniel>ok thanks
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15:11-!-TheDude is "TheDude" on #openttd @+#goulp
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15:47<TheDude>hi andythenorth
15:48<andythenorth>you had a question? :)
15:48<TheDude>I am trying to save value in temporary storage 100 and 101 to use variable 68 ( for industries
15:48<TheDude>but I am failing with it
15:48<TheDude>even with some code I found on forums
15:50<TheDude>what I have is this 02 0A A0 89 1A 20 FF FF FF FF \2sto 1A 00 \d100 01 \d0 \d0 A0 00
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15:53<TheDude>there should be link to another varact2 at the npar, but that wasnt the problem
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15:55<andythenorth>nml? :)
15:56<TheDude>what with it?
15:58<andythenorth>easier ;)
15:59<TheDude>hm, ok
15:59<andythenorth>TheDude: this is industry code? or something else (I didn't look up the type)
16:00<TheDude>yes, it is
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>TheDude: it must be \dx100
16:00<andythenorth>you could try using permanent storage to test your code
16:00<andythenorth>then you can see the value in the newgrf debug gui
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>TheDude: 100 as hexadecimal number
16:00<andythenorth>once it works, go back to temp storage register
16:01<andythenorth>also what Eddi|zuHause said
16:01<andythenorth>but getting debug info is essential for your sanity when coding industry newgrf
16:01<TheDude>where can I see permanent storage?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>you need to enable newgrf_developer in the console
16:02<TheDude>but when is it then?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>then you get a "bug" icon in the title bar of the industry
16:03*andythenorth looks in wiki
16:03<TheDude>if I inspect industry, there are variables, properties, but no storage
16:05<TheDude>yes, exactly, what is the persistent storage there? I dont know
16:05<andythenorth>they appear after the first month or so of gameplay
16:05<andythenorth>maybe they aren't shown if all storage is 0 or null
16:05<andythenorth>they probably won't show for default industries
16:05<andythenorth>they do show for FIRS
16:07<TheDude>ok, I will play with it little bit more, thanks for the push
16:11<andythenorth>new ship
16:12<andythenorth>from DanMacK
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>how good could ships from denmark be?
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16:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: as good as ships from Canada?
16:22<andythenorth>I can't think of any other alternative spellings for DanMacK :P
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16:30<Terkhen>good night
16:35<Supercheese>OTTD doesn't allow each smokestack on a ship to emit its own steam puff, right?
16:35<Supercheese>limited to one IIRC
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16:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: Hey! Your ships are useful! :P
16:36<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that looks totally weird, with the "red lips" and "tongues"
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: yes, only one puff, and the position can't be adjusted properly (afair only length-wise, not height-wise)
16:37<Supercheese>Yeah, was hoping that had changed since I last checked, but alas
16:38*Supercheese wonders if he should attempt a patch to fix that
16:40<Supercheese>Having never really inspected the code, though, naturally I've quite a bit of reading to do
16:42<andythenorth>FLHerne: 'useful' ?
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16:42<FLHerne>andythenorth: Move loads of cargo, with the autorefitting :-)
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16:43<FLHerne>andythenorth: Move loads of cargo, with the autorefitting :-)
16:43<FLHerne>Dodgy client?
16:43<andythenorth>dodgy keypress
16:43*FLHerne screenshots
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16:46<Supercheese>Jeez, weird BubbleMovement arrays or something under effectvehicle.cpp
16:46<Supercheese>guess all the movement is hardcoded?
16:48<Supercheese>ach, most of this goes over my head
16:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: Integrated ship/rail transport :D
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16:50<Supercheese>"double tracked" canals, eh? :)
16:50*FLHerne puts on his 'blatant screenshot plug' hat :D
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16:50<FLHerne>Supercheese: Giant barges going through each other look silly :P
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>there's a "ships avoid each other" patch
16:51<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: I know. Forgot to apply it before starting this game
16:51<FLHerne>PF-only, might not break if I add it?
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>but doing that strictly may deadlock
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: depends if it adds a setting
16:52<andythenorth>FLHerne: but ships are so slow :o
16:52<FLHerne>Well, I might as well try :P
16:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: Trains on water are slower :P
16:52<FLHerne>Also, it's 1928 so the trains are slow too :D
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: if it does, you might want to change its changes to settings.ini, to be a gui-only option
16:52<Supercheese>but ships are the only vehicles that offer indefinitely large route capacities
16:52<Supercheese>need to transport more stuff? just add more ships
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: you will lose multiplayer stability, but you gain savegame compatibility
16:53<NGC3982>FLHerne: What NewGRF is that?
16:53<Supercheese>they never get jammed, they clip through each other, they all can load and unload at the same time etc. etc.
16:53<FLHerne>Supercheese: That's going to prove important soon :D
16:53<Supercheese>all other vehicle types can get bogged down
16:53<Supercheese>and capacity is limited
16:53*FLHerne is going to route the core of his network through that canal :-)
16:53<FLHerne>NGC3982: Which one?
16:53<NGC3982>Oh, sorry. The station tiles
16:53*FLHerne is finding the grf-limit a pain ;-)
16:54<NGC3982>The GRF-limit?
16:54*NGC3982 googles
16:54*Supercheese learned how to compile OTTD just so he could increase the GRF limit ;)
16:54<FLHerne>There's a maximum number :P
16:54<NGC3982>There is?
16:55<Supercheese>fios.h: line 94: LAST_GRF_SLOT
16:55<Supercheese>I increased mine to 254 from 63, IIRC
16:55<FLHerne>It's higher than you'd normally encounter, unless you were to fill them all with eyecandy and vehicles :D
16:55<Supercheese>also line 96: MAX_FILE_SLOTS
16:56<Supercheese>64 is _not enough_.
16:57<Supercheese>(also, old grf list is old)
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17:07<andythenorth>what's all this patch talk about
17:07<andythenorth>all my patches go into trunk quickly
17:13<andythenorth>FLHerne: FISH feedback in the thread if you have any btw
17:14*andythenorth bed
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17:14<Eddi|zuHause>why do i get bored so quickly lately?
17:14<NGC3982>Why is there a maximum in the first place?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: because computers are not turing complete
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>they lack infinite storage
17:15<SpComb>uh huh
17:16<SpComb>OpenTTD would run out of available "if"s, you see, with too many GRFs loaded
17:16<SpComb>"if"s are the things that computer programs are made out of
17:16<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: That sounds like a user problem.
17:17<Supercheese>Apparently the grf list has to fit into a single UDP packet for network games
17:17<Supercheese>so there's a reason for the limit
17:17<NGC3982>I see
17:17<Supercheese>singleplayer games there isn't a reason insofar as I can tell
17:17<NGC3982>That sounds logical
17:18<Supercheese>"For the multiplayer lobby all used NewGRFs must be put into a single UDP packet. A UDP packet is very limited in size."
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>one could increase that by using a smaller checksum instead of md5
17:20<SpComb>sounds like OpenTTD needs a protocol for reassembling fragmented UDP packets!
17:20*Supercheese doesn't really know what that means :P
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>checksums are a means to compare two files, without transferring the whole file to the other location
17:20<Supercheese>So use a fewer-bits checksum or some such?
17:21<Supercheese>I rarely if ever play network games, though, so am I correct in assuming there's no reason for the limit in singleplayer games?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>if you use a half-size checksum, you can pack more grfs into the list
17:21<Supercheese>I mean, I have ~90 grfs loaded in my game here, so it seems to work fine ;)
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>there may be type troubles if you set more than 255
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17:22<NGC3982>255 seems good.
17:23<Supercheese>yep, that's what I upped the limit to
17:23<FLHerne>Why can't it use two UDP packets? :P
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17:24<NGC3982>Two!? You mad man..
17:24<Yexo>it possible can, but nobody bothered to code support for that
17:24<NGC3982>That would inflate the universe to another dimension!
17:24*NGC3982 just realized that things don't inflate into spatial dimensions.
17:24<Rubidium>NGC3982: because that significantly increases the complexity
17:24<Yexo>and to be fair: all newgrf lists that contain more than 50 items I've seen contain a lot of unused grfs
17:25<NGC3982>Rubidium: What increases the complexity?
17:25<FLHerne>Yexo: Mine doesn't :P
17:25<Supercheese>Some grfs have the nasty problem of only containing one vehicle
17:25<Rubidium>if with 1 packet there is a 50% chance the packet gets lost, then with 2 packets it's 75% and with 4 even a 94% chance
17:25<NGC3982>Rubidium: Oh. Using two? Let's re-direct that answer to FLHerne.
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17:25<FLHerne>Unless you equate 'eyecandy' with 'useless', which is a potentially valid obsevation :D
17:26<Yexo>I don't, I meant using for example old opengfx grfs from before the opengfx baseset, or 20 stations sets but only the default stations build
17:26<Yexo>having both ecs and firs in the list and one error out due to incompatibility, that kind of things
17:26<Rubidium>and since UDP is 'fire and forget', adding support for multiple packets means retries, getting the packet order right and all kinds of nasty stuff
17:26<NGC3982>Not to be obtuse, but why is it important to store all the NewGRFs in a UDP file?
17:26-!-DDR [] has quit []
17:27<NGC3982>That's not really related to the inquiry, by the way.
17:27<FLHerne>Yexo: For MP servers, the latter in your first point can be valid ;-)
17:27<Rubidium>because people want to know whether they have the right NewGRFs to join a server
17:27<FLHerne>You don't know what players want to build, so it's good to have a range of station grfs
17:27<Rubidium>and clicking each server to see whether that's the case is more cumbersome than showing a nice green blob
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17:27<Rubidium>(or a yellow blob when NewGRFs are missing)
17:28<NGC3982>I see.
17:28<FLHerne>Rubidium: Would TCP be better at all?
17:28<Yexo>FLHerne: for mp there is also the problem that having too many newgrfs might scare off users
17:28<NGC3982>Other games have similar systems with addons. How do they solve it?
17:28<Yexo>FLHerne: that's use a lot more resources
17:28*FLHerne hasn't done networking at that level :P
17:28<FLHerne>Yexo: I have a CDist server anyway :P
17:28<Rubidium>FLHerne: that requires many more round trips to get just a kB of data across
17:29<FLHerne>I get user shortages anyway, but I doubt grfs are the issue ;-)
17:29<Rubidium>FLHerne: and certain OSes seemed to have a limit on the number of TCP connections that could be opened
17:29<Rubidium>(as a server)
17:30<Yexo><NGC3982> Other games have similar systems with addons. How do they solve it? <- can you name some other games where you can have >50 addons loaded at the same time?
17:30<FLHerne>Mmm. No then :P
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17:32<NGC3982>Yexo: Yes, indeed. Any MMORPG where your character uses equipment that are visible to others should be ..basicly the same thing?
17:33<NGC3982>Yexo: If i understand carrying sets of data correctly, that is.
17:33<Supercheese>Skyrim has a Mod manager, I've seen folks will zillions of mods enabled in it
17:33<Yexo>NGC3982: but at that point you already have a completely connection to the server
17:33<Supercheese>things get pretty hairy after a few dozen mods though
17:33<Yexo>that's not the case in the openttd server overview
17:34<NGC3982>Yexo: I think i understand the issue.
17:34<NGC3982>Users does not connect to the actual server to retrieve the NewGRF list, but uses that wimpy UDP package.
17:34<Yexo>using UDP means we don't need to have create a complete connection to the server
17:35<NGC3982>And implementing a system where you actually download a real list (let's say, a text file) from the server - is tedious/hard/not worth it?
17:35<NGC3982>Note that im not trying to convince you here, i litterally don't know how the game should be built, so.
17:36<Yexo>compare it to using the phone vs using texts: if you call someone you can say as much as you want without any problems, but calling takes some time, you greet someone, say goodby etc. This is using a TCP connection. What we do is send a text "what newgrfs do you use" and wait for a response "a, b and c". Since we can text all servers at the same time and get responses asynchrounsly this is fast. see this as UDP
17:36<NGC3982>I see.
17:36<NGC3982>Good analogy.
17:38<Yexo>one text (UDP packet) is limited in size, that's where the newgrf limit comes from. If you want to increase that you have to either switch to a phone call or use multiple texts. However since there is no synchronization, you are not sure if and in which order your texts arrive
17:38<Yexo>if you limit it to one text it doesn't matter, but otherwise it does
17:38<Yexo>that means the receiver needs to keep track of the amount of packets it expects and put them in the right order, which is quite a bit of work
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17:38<NGC3982>I guess this is a bigger problem then users simply downloading a list from a server.
17:39<Yexo>downloading a list would mean using the phone call
17:39<NGC3982>I see.
17:39<Rubidium>NGC3982: try calling 250 people
17:39<Yexo>now a computer is not human, but is still limited in the the amount of calls it can answer
17:39<NGC3982>Rubidium: True.
17:39<NGC3982>I was only thinking in the terms of a single user downloading (or using a phone call) the list from a single sever.
17:40<Rubidium>that's what happens in the window where you choose the company to join
17:40<Yexo>a central openttd server could fullfill that role, but you don't want to rely on an internet server for local lan games
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: to send the same data in a TCP packet, you take 9 times the bandwidth, and a lot of memory
17:40<NGC3982>Yexo: True.
17:40<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, i see.
17:40<NGC3982>Well, that kind of settles it.
17:40<Yexo>now the amount of servers in a lan is probably always very limited, so a TCP connection could be used there
17:41<Yexo>but all in all: it's definitely possible, but a lot of hassle to get it working correctly and the current limit is deemed "high enough"
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>some routers may have problems with opening 250 connections at the same time
17:41<Rubidium>also a TCP connection to the LAN broadcast is not likely to work right
17:42<Rubidium>they already crash when dumping 250 UDP messages at the same time onto the router
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>i have never reached the GRF limit
17:42<Wolf01>'night all
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17:42<Yexo>servers broadcast the ip/port they're using, right? so why would it be a problem to use a tcp connection?
17:43<Yexo>or does the broadcast message currently include all information?
17:43<FLHerne>How does CPU load on a dedicated server scale?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: this is about the "online" status of servers, not the server search/masterserver
17:43*FLHerne was thinking of running one on a MIPS blob :P
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: very high
17:43<NGC3982>FLHerne: Operating system?
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17:43<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but a LAN search simply broadcast's the "I want your info" UDP packet
17:44<NGC3982>I love how the dedicated server works so well in Windows.
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: ok, that would have to be split in two parts then
17:44<Rubidium>Yexo: that port is the one used for player connections as well
17:44<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Aw :-(
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17:44<Rubidium>which means the connections end up in the pool used for client connections
17:44<NGC3982>By the way, didn't we discuss the potential of using RPI as OpenTTD servers?
17:44<FLHerne>NGC3982: Linux, of course :P . What else even runs on MIPS devices?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: this isn't an FPS game, where the majority of the load is 3D graphics rendering
17:45<NGC3982>FLHerne: I have no idea what a MIPS is. It sounds like a pet.
17:45<NGC3982>FLHerne: ;-)
17:45<Rubidium>what is RPI actually?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: MIPS is a microprocessor architecture typically found in small devices like routers or phones
17:46<NGC3982>Rubidium: Raspberry Pi is an ARM based Linux/GNU computer. It's tiny and quiet powerful.
17:46<NGC3982>Rubidium: And cheap.
17:46<Rubidium>oh, that thing
17:46<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I see.
17:46<Rubidium>not some vague university
17:46<FLHerne>NGC3982: Someone did ;-)
17:46*FLHerne considered it too
17:47<NGC3982>Ah, yes. I abandoned the RPI OpenTTD thingy because of the map sizes.
17:47<NGC3982>And the RAM.
17:47<FLHerne>Thing is, my big, inefficient Pentium D slurps power, so I can't justify running an always-on TTD server :-(
17:47<NGC3982>256MB GPU shared RAM*
17:48<NGC3982>FLHerne: But hey.
17:48<NGC3982>I fail to see a dedicated server being hard on any newer CPU
17:49<NGC3982>Ive been using my HTPC (Windows 7, Atom230) as a dedicated server for months, and it copes without a sweat.
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17:50*NGC3982 should google what a Pentium D is before he say things like that.
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the age doesn't really matter. you need a decent amount of ram, and something above 2GHz would be helpful for medium sized maps
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: he didn't say it was too slow. he said it costs too much power (money) to run 24/7
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17:52<FLHerne>NGC3982: The speed on here isn't a problem
17:52<FLHerne>It's that it eats vast numbers of amps :P
17:52<FLHerne>One of my spare routers would eat a fraction of the power, but might be too slow :P
17:53<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Ah.
17:53<NGC3982>Oh, now i'm following.
17:54<NGC3982>Running a dedicated OpenTTD server on a router would be computer intercourse.
17:54<FLHerne>Well, my routers already have an FTP server, a mail server and an HTTP server, also 500GB of storage :D
17:54*FLHerne loves misusing routers
17:55<NGC3982>I haven't explored all that yet, but i have been using DD-wrt on my e3000 for a year know
17:56<NGC3982>I think i have a (closed) FTPS on the USB-jack, but nothing on it.
17:56<FLHerne>NGC3982: You should. Mid-range routers are actually surprisingly versatile for lightweight stuff :-)
17:56<NGC3982>The newer routers with opensource firmwares are really stuff of legends
17:57<NGC3982>It keeps suprising me with litteraly thousands of stuff to use them for
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>oh lovely statistics. "In the entire year 2011, the german police fired 86 bullets. the new york police fires 89 bullets to hunt one single maniac, killing several innocent bystanders"
17:58<FLHerne>Guns in the US don't obey normal logic :-(
17:59<NGC3982>My father works with the police here in Sweden
17:59<NGC3982>The last bullet he shot was in 1973
17:59<NGC3982>During the Norrmalmstorg robbery.
18:02<NGC3982>I would be scared that my father would not survive his 46 years in the service, if we were American..
18:03<SpComb>I wonder if there exist some kind of set-based hashes
18:03<NGC3982>Speaking of router firmware, of course.
18:03*NGC3982 surely contributes to off-topic nights.
18:03<SpComb>i.e. somehow encode "this set of hashes" and be able to subset that off of some bigger local set
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: you cannot decode hashes on the other end. hashes only work if you can reproduce them at both sides from local data
18:05<SpComb>not a simple one-way hash
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>hashes are always one-way. that's kinda their point
18:06<SpComb>some kind of set-hash that allows one to calculate subsets
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>you should attend a lesson of compression theory somewhen :)
18:06<SpComb>"is this hash a subset of this other hash"
18:07<SpComb>e.g. given a defined ordering of items in the set
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>what problem are you trying to solve?
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18:08<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: what i am trying to say is: the client might not have the GRFs, so it cannot calculate the hashes
18:08<SpComb>something very theoretical :)
18:08<SpComb>quite, in that case it would not be a subset
18:09<Yexo>don't send every md5sum but only the xor of N (small, like 4) md5sums. On the receiving end there is a very low amount of md5sums per grfid, so you can bruteforce to see if you have them all. Remaining problem: if you don't have all N correct NewGRFs you can't tell which one you're missing
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: the point of the exercise is to tell the client which GRFs to get
18:11<SpComb>isn't it to display the no grfs/missing grfs/ok grfs indicator?
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>that is only part of it
18:12<SpComb>you can query the full set after clicking it or whatever
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>you'd only get the full list after joining, at which point you must already have them
18:13<supermop>oh man rode up to 30th street with two flat tires
18:13<supermop>28 blocks
18:13<supermop>because i am stupid
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>how do you get two flat tires?!
18:14*SpComb ponders taking a fourier transform of his NewGRFs
18:14<SpComb>been studying up too much mathematics, I guess :)
18:14<supermop>hadnt ridden the bike in a couple month and all the air had leaked out
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>fourier transform is only going to help you if you consider lossy compression :p
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18:16<supermop>so i was just thinking - 'this ride feels a lot bumpier than I remember'
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>wait... you sit on a bike without noticing a flat tire?
18:16<supermop>haha yeah
18:16<supermop>thats the 'idiot' part i mentioned
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's like the VERY FIRST thing i check whenever i get on a bike... and that isn't that often either
18:18<Yexo>I never check it, but it's something I'd still notice
18:18<Yexo>I mean, how can you not notice having a flat tire?
18:18<FLHerne>Also, how can you do without a bike for that long?
18:19<FLHerne>Mine broke on Tuesday, and that's messed up most of the week :-(
18:20<supermop>i walk everywhere
18:21<SpComb>my tire went flat sometime sunday-monday :(
18:22<SpComb>the outer tire had worn through in one place
18:22<fonsinchen>bloom filters, maybe
18:24<fonsinchen>I can't come up with a good scheme, though.
18:24<SpComb>total number of GRFs + a bloom filter?
18:24<SpComb>and bruteforce available GRFs against it?
18:24<fonsinchen>problem is that bloom filters have false positives
18:25<fonsinchen>so total number of GRFs and bloom filter of _not_ included GRFs
18:26<fonsinchen>another problem is that you have to check all possible GRF ids
18:27<fonsinchen>actually included GRFs + number, exactly because of the false positives ...
18:28<SpComb>have OpenTTD display the calculated probability in the list? :P
18:29<Yexo>"There is an 80% chance you have the correct NewGRFs to join this server"
18:29<Yexo>I'm sure users will love that ;)
18:29<SpComb>"Bloom filters can be used for approximate data synchronization as in Byers et al. (2004). Counting Bloom filters can be used to approximate the number of differences between two sets and this approach is described in Agarwal & Trachtenberg (2006)."
18:30<SpComb>Yexo: all in the name of science
18:30<fonsinchen>Of course you can just make it download all missing GRFs and then there might be one you don't really need because it was a false positive
18:30<fonsinchen>However, the problem of determining the base set and the effort of checking all of the base set against the filter remains
18:30<supermop>i don't even have a monthly metrocard
18:32<SpComb>bloom filter of included GRFs + count + md5 hash of included GRFs?
18:33<fonsinchen>still makes you run all possible GRFs through the filter, doesn't it?
18:33<SpComb>all grfs that the client has available
18:34<SpComb>to detect if the client is missing a grf that is included in the set
18:34<SpComb>and then count/md5 to weed out false positives
18:34<fonsinchen>The filter has false positives.
18:34<SpComb>so figure out what local grfs are in the set, and then validate against count/md5
18:35<fonsinchen>however, if the md5sum fails you don't know what is wrong ...
18:35<fonsinchen>or do you?
18:35<SpComb>I'm assuming that it's enough to know if you either have all grfs or are missing any
18:35<SpComb>bonus if you can tell how many GRFs you are missing
18:35<Yexo>as eddi said half an hour ago, basic compression theory
18:36<Yexo>the required information we need to have if the check fails is the grfid + md5sum of all failed newgrfs
18:36<Yexo>since all newgrfs can be missing, we really need to have all information
18:37<Yexo>so any way to only send part of it can reduce data if you only want to know whether or not you have all newgrfs, but it cannot help for the case OpenTTD has: which exact version do we need to join the server
18:37<SpComb>kinda depends on the UI, I guess, but I was thinking just display no/missing/all-grfs in the server list, and then further query if trying to actually join/click a server with missing GRFs
18:38<Yexo>for that you can do other things, like send grfid + grfversion + first 4 bytes of md5sum
18:39<SpComb>but hmm... essentially a hash over the entire set, and then a bloom filter to narrow down the selection of candidates for the hash
18:39<SpComb>would that work, in theory?
18:39<SpComb>to perform a subset operation
18:40<fonsinchen>If you're lucky you get no false positives from the filter and then the md5sum will match.
18:40<SpComb>the bloom filter might give you more candiates than are actually in the set
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18:40<fonsinchen>If not you get a false positive and the md5sum doesn't match even though you have the right GRFs
18:41<SpComb>hence the count, so you cound then try combinations of those candidates
18:41<SpComb>i.e. the bloom filter is just an optimization for brute-forcing all combinations of items against the hash
18:41<SpComb>plus assuming a defined ordering for the items in the hash
18:42<fonsinchen>If you're even more unlucky you're missing one GRF and get a false positive instead and then the md5sum won't match either.
18:42<fonsinchen>well, yeah, might work after all
18:43<fonsinchen>the number is important
18:43<SpComb>basically the server has some set of active GRFs A, and the client some set of available GRFs B
18:43<SpComb>and the goal is to figure out if A is a subset of B
18:43<SpComb>the server could just send a hash over A, and client could brute-force all of its GRF combinations to figure out if it can get that same hash
18:43<fonsinchen>The hassle of running all of B through the filter for each entry of the server list is substantial, though.
18:44<SpComb>so the server sends the number of GRFs in the hash, and the client knows what combination-lengths to try
18:44<SpComb>and then the server sends a bloom filter across the active GRFs B, and the client can test each item in A against that filter before considering it a candidate for the combinations
18:45<SpComb>swap A and B there, oops
18:45<fonsinchen>This is still _a lot_ of work.
18:45<SpComb>well, A might be 100 GRFs, and B might be a 1000 or whatever
18:45<fonsinchen>People have hundreds of GRFs and there are hundreds of servers
18:45<fonsinchen>that gives you 10000s of filter operations
18:46<SpComb>each individual server should be fairly O(N) across the number of GRFs though, I guess, depending on the number of false positives
18:47<fonsinchen>yes, but the effort is #servers * #GRFs
18:47<fonsinchen>sounds dangerous
18:47<SpComb>I wonder what the current O(N) properties are
18:47<SpComb>servers * active grfs against some hash of local GRFs
18:47<fonsinchen>basically O(1) if OpenTTD keeps a lookup table of GRF IDs to GRFs
18:48<fonsinchen>(which I guess it does=
18:48<fonsinchen>OK. O(N) in number of servers
18:48<SpComb>yeah, you end up having to validate the candidates with the theoretical bloom-set wanking :)
18:49<Yexo>don't forget the time required to implement all of this
18:49<SpComb>but think of it, support for arbitrary(*) numbers of GRFs in a constant[*]-length UDP packet :)
18:49<SpComb>yeah, not really pratical
18:50<SpComb>but interesting on a theoretical level :)
18:50<Yexo>definitely :)
18:51<fonsinchen>well, I'll sleep some.
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 12 00:00:39 2012