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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-01-13

---Logopened Sun Jan 13 00:00:59 2013
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02:26<Supercheese>"nmlc ERROR: Using spritesets with different sizes in a single sprite group / layout is not possible"
02:28<Supercheese>Different sizes as in pixels, or number of sprites in set?
02:30<Supercheese>Bah, timezones; nobody on :(
02:32<Rubidium>well... nobody with the answer is on
02:32<Rubidium>though I doubt it'll be pixels
02:33<Supercheese>I do have a different number of sprites in different spritesets in the same layout
02:33<Supercheese>why is that illegal? :S
02:33<Supercheese>one set has 8, the others 2
02:34<Supercheese>Oh bullshit: "All spritesets used in a layout must have the same number of sprites, due to a restriction in the NFO format."
02:34<Supercheese>I'll just add dummy sprites to the small groups
02:35<@planetmaker>Supercheese: different sprite number currently is not possible in nml
02:35<@planetmaker>will eventually be. after 0.3
02:35<Supercheese>Eh, easy enough to fix
02:35<Supercheese>just seems silly :S
02:36<@planetmaker>yes. just add [] dummy sprites
02:37<@planetmaker>Supercheese: the other way is to only use one spriteset. And assigne different sprites from the same spriteset to the same layout
02:38<Supercheese>Yeah, but adding dummy sprites is less rewrite at this juncture, I think
02:38<Supercheese>I coded for too long without testing compilation :P
02:39<Supercheese>Bah, GIMP doesn't support math operations when inputting number of pixels
02:39<@planetmaker>test after logical steps :-)
02:41<Supercheese>Yay, compiled
02:46<Supercheese>Yay, works as intended
02:48<Supercheese>Now to sprite-align...
02:48*Supercheese hates sprite-aligning
02:53<Supercheese>spritelayouts have weird coordinates
02:57<Supercheese>very weird
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03:16<@peter1138>there's a gui for that
03:17<Supercheese>sprite align GUI is less helpful when the alignment is "from NE edge" and such
03:21<@peter1138>oh that's easy
03:21<Supercheese>I'm likely mis/not understanding it
03:22<@peter1138>visualise the tile top-down
03:22<@peter1138>as a 16 x 16 square
03:22<@peter1138>north corner is 0, 0
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03:44<@peter1138>what sort of tile is it anyway?
03:45<Supercheese>Hmm, my childsprites' spritesets don't seem to be receiving the argument passed to them
03:45<Supercheese>I've got the alignment sorted
03:45<Supercheese>but now the randomization isn't working
03:45<Supercheese>well, I'll just shove the random stuff right in the argument
03:46<Supercheese>Still no :S
03:47<Supercheese>ice_caps_NW_ends_set(nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0) % 2)
03:47<Supercheese>should randomly choose the 0 or 1 indices of that spriteset
03:47<Supercheese>but it only ever chooses 0
03:48<Supercheese>ach, logic fail on my part
03:50<@peter1138>doing objects?
03:50<Supercheese>Ice tiles
03:50<Supercheese>too bad they can't be traversed by icebreaker ships, and then broken ;)
04:01<Supercheese>Can I access extra_callback_info1 inside of a spritelayout?
04:01<Supercheese>When the random_animation flag is set, that has nice random bits
04:01<Supercheese>Well, let me try...
04:02<Supercheese>Ugh, so much quitting and restarting OTTD
04:03<@peter1138>no because it's not a callback
04:03<Supercheese>Yeah, no random bits :(
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04:03<andythenorth>is it?
04:03<andythenorth>a good morning?
04:03<andythenorth>I ask you
04:04<Supercheese>Well, being 1:05 AM here, I guess it's technically morning
04:04<Supercheese>and I'm being productive in coding my grf, so yes
04:04<Supercheese>a good morning
04:04<Supercheese>I just need a better way to randomize stuff within a spritelayout
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04:05*andythenorth has authored one lego cement mixer
04:05<andythenorth>is that true if I just followed instructions?
04:06<Supercheese>Author, from the Latin auctor, can mean "originator", "doer", etc.
04:06<Supercheese>seems good to me :)
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04:07<Supercheese>"grower", even
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04:09<@Alberth>hi hi
04:10<Supercheese>Hmm, maybe I can shove random bits into a temp storage and use that
04:11<Supercheese>Wait, what kind of tiles can nearby_tile_random_bits access?
04:11<Supercheese>Only tiles within the object?
04:13<andythenorth>what's the goal?
04:14<Supercheese>I've got some childsprites in a spritelayout I would like to each receive independently random data to select between sprites in their spritesets
04:14<Supercheese>not entirely sure how to best do that
04:14<Supercheese>4 childsprites to be precise
04:14<andythenorth>random but deterministic?
04:15<Supercheese>random enough™
04:15<andythenorth>reliably random I should have said
04:15<Supercheese>I'm just trying to avoid stuff looking too homogenous
04:15<@peter1138>sprites don't actually do anything, they're just sprites
04:16<Supercheese>I want to pass an argument to the spriteset
04:16<Supercheese>select the index randomly
04:16<@peter1138>spritesets don't have arguments
04:16<Supercheese>yes they do
04:16<andythenorth>not really :)
04:16<andythenorth>not at run time
04:16<andythenorth>its all magic created for you by nfo :)
04:16<andythenorth>nml :P
04:16<Supercheese>as long as it works
04:16*andythenorth needs to have breakfast
04:16<andythenorth>50% of what I type is wrong today
04:16<andythenorth>that's 5% more than normal
04:17<andythenorth>Supercheese: got FIRS checked out?
04:18<Supercheese>Not really, been working a lot on my grfs
04:18<andythenorth>I'm looking for some randomising code there
04:19<Supercheese>Oh, you mean I should be checking the code for inspiration... right
04:19<andythenorth>it's way too templated :P
04:19<andythenorth>I just checked
04:19<Supercheese>thought you meant like SVN checkout or something
04:19<andythenorth>I did at first
04:19<andythenorth>still no breakfast :P
04:19<Supercheese>oh my, ,py
04:20<andythenorth> hide_sprite: (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) || (current_year + 5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x10000) < 1920 || (current_year + 5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x10000) >= 1945;
04:22<Supercheese>My choir director is going to hate me in ~7 hours when I have to sing, I'll have had no sleep :S
04:23<andythenorth>objects have some random bits somewhere yes?
04:24<Supercheese>can get random bits from the current tile, doesn't seem to work on adjacent tiles
04:24<andythenorth>and you have registers (temp / storage?)
04:24<Supercheese>that is possible, yes
04:24<Supercheese>I'm probably missing a very simple way to do what I want, perhaps I should sleep on it
04:25<andythenorth>do you actually need every sprite to be random?
04:25<andythenorth>or could you just select between combinations?
04:26<andythenorth>I can't be bothered to look up how many bits you have :P
04:26<andythenorth>holding a baby
04:26<Supercheese>Well, each tile will be different, but the combinations will be the same I think
04:26<Supercheese>using nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0) % whatever
04:27<Supercheese>if I get enough random variants that will probably look OK
04:27<andythenorth>just use the tile's own bits to switch combos
04:27<andythenorth>8 combos is plenty imho
04:27<Supercheese>8 is what I was shooting for, yeah
04:28<Supercheese>I'll try that
04:28<andythenorth>the clamp thingy is useful in nml, can't remember its name
04:29<Supercheese>% mod, yeah
04:29<andythenorth>I would use hide_sprite to handle this I think
04:29<andythenorth>or use a switch to select entire spritegroups
04:29<Supercheese>Yeah, already using that to hide sprite based on nearby_tile_object_type(0, 1) == same_obj
04:29<andythenorth>all this magic inside layouts is a bit new-school for me :P
04:30<Supercheese>I took inspiration from OGFX+ Landscape and VAST Objects
04:30<andythenorth>I am used to thinking about varaction 2s that select layouts
04:30<Supercheese>intense code
04:30<Supercheese>I should apply for university credit for all this :P
04:31<@peter1138>you should use nfo
04:32<@peter1138>at least it doesn't try & pretend to be something it's not :p
04:32<Supercheese>well, it'd certainly be more difficult, I give you that
04:32<Supercheese>a university-style move :P
04:33<andythenorth>peter1138: nml isn't that evil
04:33<andythenorth>it's just misleading if you confuse what's run time and what's not :P
04:34<andythenorth>and what is really a whole load of magic advanced varaction 2 being hidden from you :P
04:34*Supercheese likes the magic very much
04:34<@peter1138>does it have the sense to translate % 2 to & 1?
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04:35<Supercheese>what does & 1 do?
04:35<@peter1138>selects the first bit, giving you 0 or 1
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04:43<Supercheese>Oh hmm, maybe stuff like town_euclidean_dist is pseudo-random enough
04:43<@peter1138>but how expensive is thata?
04:43<Supercheese>not a good idea?
04:44<andythenorth>not for graphics chain
04:44<andythenorth>just use the random bits
04:44<andythenorth>or something with the animation frame
04:44<andythenorth>8 animation frames?
04:44<Supercheese>was debating that
04:45<andythenorth>each frame selects a combo
04:45<andythenorth>advance the frame to random(8) on construction
04:45<Supercheese>Hmm, yes
04:46<Supercheese>Haha, oops, my objects overhang the map edge if they're built at it
04:46<@peter1138>getting distance to closest town requires looping over all towns, not really a good idea
04:47<Supercheese>I'll avoid it then :)
04:47<@peter1138>maybe the nml specs should say whether "variables" are costly
04:47<Supercheese>seems like a decent idea
04:47<Supercheese>well, definitely time to sleep
04:47<Supercheese>many thanks for the help & advice :D
04:49<Supercheese>valete omnes
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04:56<Wolf01>hello o/
04:59<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:21<burtybob>If anyone sees xQR today tell them burty/burtybob said thank you. It was the socket getting told the wrong packet size, it was reading the buffer size instead of the real size!
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06:35<@planetmaker>your NUTS wiki looks very nice, V453000
06:36<drac_boy>how're you flygon?
06:36<V453000>thank you, I hope to make it look a lot nicer by substituting some texts for images :) but so far mainly the info
06:36<Flygon>I'm decent enough
06:36<Flygon>Sitting around, realizing that Victorian Steamrail would have a money printer if they restored H220 :p
06:37<Flygon>Bugger would be more powerful than any locomotive V/Line currently has. Fit in a massive tender and suddenly you can do 500km trips faster than their current N-class locos. And it'd be great for publicity :p
06:37<drac_boy>heh -_-
06:38<drac_boy>V453000 link?
06:38<Flygon>Let's put it this way. N-class struggling up certain hills would barely push 60-80km/hm. Harry was designed to keep an 80km/h minimum on the same slopes (and, in practice... it went faster)
06:41<drac_boy>oh right, didn't know it was the same page you were talking about
06:43<@peter1138>V453000, but it's unrealistic!
06:44<@peter1138>what is 'extra' ?
06:45<@peter1138>and that rainbow thing
06:46<V453000>stuff :)
06:46<V453000>extra are trains which realistic people should not trifle with as they can melt brains
06:48<@peter1138>mentally disturbed class
06:48<V453000>the rainbow thing specifically is trains which have faces, randomize mood upon station visit or servicing, and change power at the same time
06:48<V453000>yes :)
06:49<V453000>trains which look like slugs, badass modern steamer, minecraft inspired trains
06:49<V453000>pretty much covers the extra category
06:49<V453000>rest is rather normal
06:59<frosch123>there is still no unicorn class
06:59<Kjetil>isn't unicorns cargo ?
06:59<V453000>sorry :)
06:59<@peter1138>robot unicorn attack
07:00<@peter1138>plays erasure as a running sound
07:00<V453000>frosch123: if you tell me the stats and why such a train would be unique, maybe? .p
07:01<frosch123>low capacity, instant acceleration
07:01<@Alberth>it is unique in its capability to transport unicorns
07:02<V453000>the slugs pretty much fill that role frosch123
07:02<V453000>next :)
07:02<frosch123>Kjetil: unicorns are more like reindeers
07:02<frosch123>V453000: it does electric sparks?
07:02<V453000>it isnt just about comparing stats, it needs to have some utility, like for which network you use it, or in which situation
07:02<frosch123>i think unicorns are electric trains
07:03<frosch123>the horn is the pantograph
07:04<frosch123>but yeah, i guess unicorns fit better into a rv set
07:05<frosch123>or as helicopter
07:05<V453000>helicopter it is
07:06<frosch123>reindeers also work as helicopter
07:06<V453000>you should stop drinking frosch123 :))
07:06<frosch123>though maybe reindeers are more for cargo, and unicorns are for pax
07:06<V453000>take an example of me, I have only normal ideas
07:07<frosch123>maybe you drank to much? :p
07:08<drac_boy>heh ok how about both of you the hell stop drinking and whatever you still have in your glass next to the keyboard...pour it down the sink? >_<
07:08<V453000>veeery bad idea drac_boy
07:08<drac_boy>why? :)
07:08<frosch123>hmm, ok, my sink is plastic; it might be able to deal with it
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07:27<Pikka>stop that
07:29*V453000 blames frosch
07:29*Pikka blames peter1138
07:31<Pikka>Alberth, you want to make it so I can put rotors on the Skyranger? :D
07:32<Pikka> while you're there :D
07:32<Pikka>newdisastervehicles! \o/
07:33<frosch123>hmm, btw, is the newsmoke spec also of interest to you?
07:33<@Alberth>Pikka: OpenGFX+disasters? :)
07:33<Pikka>news moke is very interesting!
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: a helicopterus?
07:33<@peter1138>wait, blaming me? :S
07:33<Pikka>not for any specific thing, peter, just as general policy
07:34<@peter1138>i see
07:36<Pikka>hmm, frosch123
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07:36<@peter1138>callback XXX, SAUCY
07:36<Pikka>so, from a quick reading, it can only create one effect at a time?
07:37<Pikka>so for a ship with two funnels, rather than emitting effects constantly from both, you can only alternate between them? :)
07:37<frosch123>no, 16
07:37<Pikka>I did say quick :)
07:37<frosch123>15 actually
07:37<@peter1138>Registers 100+x: Define x-th effect.
07:38<Pikka>Bits 0..3: Number of effects to spawn, I see now
07:38<Pikka>neato :)
07:39<Pikka>sounds good. aircraft with engines on fire ahoy :D
07:41<Pikka>I suspect andy might want a constant effect model for his ships, though
07:41<Pikka>a steam model without the "Gradually less effects when approaching max speed"
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07:44<@peter1138>proportional to amount of power need to sustain velocity
07:44<@peter1138>do ships have power?
07:44<Pikka>nor weight nor drag neither
07:44<@peter1138>well that needs adding!
07:44<Pikka>do it for planes too
07:45<Pikka>let's turn OpenTTD into a flight simulator!
07:45<@peter1138>planes have that acceleration property, heh
07:46<@peter1138>weight in tons... hmm
07:46<Pikka>the acceleration property for aircraft is incredibly unrealsilly
07:47<Pikka>all real aircraft can accelerate to as fast as they can go practically instantaneously, in OpenTTD terms.
07:47<@peter1138>and instantly slow down, yes
07:48<Pikka>slowing down is harder
07:49<Pikka>any road up
07:50<Pikka>I should use FIRS sprites and make some airports
07:50<Pikka>if I actually have a full set of newgrfairports ready to code, someone might be inspired to make it happen
07:50<Pikka>it's a theory :)
07:51<@peter1138>nah, i'm all out of stuff now that station triggers work even though nothing uses them properly
07:54<Pikka>draw some sailing ships for FISH if you're at a loose end :D
07:54<@peter1138>self wagon override
07:54<@peter1138>sounds fun
07:55<@peter1138>When returning a custom effect from CB XXX, the effect is resolved similar to the rotor sprite of helicopters using an 'self' wagon-override.
07:55<@peter1138>could be fun
07:56<@peter1138>i can't remember why it was done like that
07:56<@peter1138>probably cos he could
07:56<Pikka>because patchman, no doubt
07:57<Pikka>that's a short url
07:57<Pikka>I have been researching this here ship today, for novel purposes
07:57<__ln__>may be of interest to someone, or not:
07:58<@peter1138>Propery YYY
07:59<Pikka>Scottish Prince belonged to the Scottish Line of soiling vessels
07:59<Pikka>hooray for OCR
08:01<oskari89>Was there a submarine on TTD?
08:02<oskari89>Is it on OpenTTD?
08:02<Pikka>gurgle gurgle
08:02<oskari89>How nice
08:02<oskari89>I haven't seen that
08:02<oskari89>Has someone else, and has screenshot?
08:02<@peter1138>do you play with disasters on?
08:03<frosch123>peter1138: from the specs: "It also allows changing the look of helicopter rotors, and in the future, the look of train visual effects such as steam and diesel smoke. "
08:03<frosch123>that is written there for like 7 years?
08:03<@peter1138>then it should appear rarely later in games
08:03<@peter1138>frosch123, nice
08:03<Pikka> there you are oskari89
08:04<oskari89>That could launch some ICBM:s!
08:05<oskari89>And could destroy nearby ships with torpedoes
08:05<frosch123>you wouldn't see them in that case
08:07<oskari89>Just a torpedo wake could be nice with that nearby ship explosion
08:08<oskari89>After that submarine has appeared and again disappeared
08:09<@Alberth>you can only destroy tracks and roads with explosions :p
08:09<@Alberth>and water!
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08:10<oskari89>Ships should be able to crash.
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08:15<@peter1138>let's make them even more useless
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08:16*drac_boy thinks peter1138 is not caring for towns that are stuck with lot of water surrounding them :P
08:16<drac_boy>heh heh
08:17<@peter1138>more profitable to bridge it
08:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r24912 /trunk/src (bridge_map.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp) (2013-01-13 13:17:12 UTC)
08:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5389]: Upgrading bridges could steal road types. (adf88)
08:17<@peter1138>road types!
08:17<@peter1138>i think no. of towns should be scaled by water percentage
08:18<drac_boy>peter1138 actually thats not quite the case.. a simple tug-sized boat costs less than even the wooden bridge
08:18<@peter1138>costs less, yes
08:19<@peter1138>but makes near to 0 money
08:20<drac_boy>you're wrong...its only a runcost of 1-3K per year depending on size .. and even only 10 passengers each month is still much more than that (although if you're using reducedpayment grf I dunno then)
08:20<@peter1138>per month?
08:20<@peter1138>are you playing with day length?
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09:17<oskari89>How about disaster propability
09:17<oskari89>It could be adjusted?
09:17<oskari89>Nowadays there's too few disasters.
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09:23<jasperthecat1>Occasionally, disasters happen.
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09:49<@peter1138>woo, restriction
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause>if i were a moderator, i'd ban andy and dave from the BR-whatever topic
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11:13<drac_boy>eddi hmm I can't even make sense of their weird useless replies indeed :/
11:15<drac_boy>then come to think about it andynorth has been sounding drunk for a while in here too
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11:16<V453000>wtf is the problem there in the first place? Someone discovered that bros is not moving for 7 years or how many?
11:24<drac_boy>V453000 basically andy was "whining" about leadership and useless britishs
11:24<drac_boy>bit too strange...for me -_-
11:25<V453000>cant say he is wrong
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: andy has been mocking and trolling the BROS development for years
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11:51<Eddi|zuHause>while all that he says may be true, it's still pointless and non-constructive
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11:54<drac_boy>hi longbyte1?
11:54<longbyte1>How do I improve my appalling local authority rating
11:54<V453000>oh I didnt know Eddi|zuHause :) hm :)
11:55<drac_boy>longbyte1 do you already have passenger vehicles running to the town or not yet?
11:56<longbyte1>making a monorail
11:56<drac_boy>longbyte1 oh...let me guess: you plowed over a lot of trees?
11:57<drac_boy>well if you don't have any services running already your only three choices are 1. plant a lot of tree inside the townzone area 2. bribe the mayor (at a risk of being blocked out) or 3. skip that one town
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11:58<TimTh3Enchant3r>when i try to build a station it is blocked off
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause>longbyte1: the rating VERY SLOWLY recovers if you don't build anything in that town, and faster if you have stations that you service frequently
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>longbyte1: for the next town, you should start with a bus service before you prepare the land for your station. and build the station first and then build the tracks
12:03<drac_boy>heh thats one thing I wish some players could learn: when theres a lot of trees, build only station tiles first :->
12:03<drac_boy>anyway need to start some lunch now :-s
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>"Exercise 10.1: Simple sets are not cylinders." <-- sometimes these things are really funny :p
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13:09<andythenorth>tickety tock
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13:11<@Alberth>seen my PM ?
13:11-!-oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
13:12<@Alberth>andythenorth: this one :)
13:13<andythenorth>Alberth: looking now ;)
13:13<andythenorth>bit baby-minding right now
13:15<andythenorth>Alberth: does it use any python framework?
13:15<andythenorth>or raw wsgi?
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13:16<@Alberth>experimenting with Python 3 ;)
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13:17-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
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13:17<andythenorth>it probably has some kind of templating thing
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13:17<andythenorth>I could skin it for you, not today mind
13:19<@Alberth>quite trivial :)
13:22<andythenorth>straightforward :P
13:23<andythenorth>take care not to disable escaping on any user-submitted strings ;)
13:24<andythenorth>oh it has a base_template
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13:34<__ln__>.... but why?
13:37<SpComb>must be a paintball arena
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r24913 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-01-13 18:45:36 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>traditional_chinese - 115 changes by siu238X
13:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 36 changes by kokubunzi
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 33 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>serbian - 5 changes by voodoo84
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14:26<Supercheese>Man, the word for "airplane" in German is cool
14:26<Supercheese>then again, a lot of German words are cool
14:31<Ammler>German is a kalte language
14:34<@peter1138>maybe 90% water was a bit too much
14:42<Wolf01>'night all
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14:51<Supercheese>How is vehicle power quantized? To the nearest horsepower?
14:51<@peter1138>quantized where?
14:51<Supercheese>Smallest possible variation when defining
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14:51<@peter1138>for trains its 1hp
14:51<Supercheese>Ah, road vehicles
14:52<Supercheese>that's what you meant
14:52<@peter1138>for rvs it's 10hp
14:52<@peter1138>1 = 10hp
14:52<Supercheese>Well, my single horse is going to be a mighty powerful one, then :P
14:52<@peter1138>sadly so
14:53<@peter1138>it's cos rv power is a single byte, unfortunately
14:53<Supercheese>He's either Superhorse, or so decrepit he can't even get out of the depot
14:53<@peter1138>should've been a word
14:54<@peter1138>but... patchman :S
14:54<@peter1138>it's in 10hp for cb36 too :-(
14:55<Rubidium>but even then 1 HP is too much for one horse
14:55<@peter1138>float powr!
14:55<Supercheese>1 HP is above average for a single horse, yeah
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14:56<Supercheese>no way to influence cornering speed of road vehicles?
14:56<Supercheese>they always slow by the same ratio?
14:57<Supercheese>to the same fraction of max speed* rather
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15:20<Supercheese>New Eyecandy road vehicles up
15:22<@peter1138>iirc the calculations all convert it to KW
15:22<@peter1138>it's just the property that is lame
15:23<frosch123>all 64bit, all si units
15:23<Supercheese>Oh now I know why the horse is 10 hp, it's the same size as an apartment building
15:24<Supercheese>Though for all its inconsistencies, the OTTD "scale" is very visually pleasing
15:25<frosch123>just make it a unicorn
15:25<@peter1138>grfv9! all unicorns
15:25<frosch123>good idea!
15:26<Supercheese>Downloads: 49212771167
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15:39<drac_boy>how're you?
15:40<Supercheese>Sleepy, didn't get much last night
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15:49<drac_boy>well I kinda had the same thing...had a hour of nap after lunch tho :)
15:49<drac_boy>been a bit lazy most of the afternoon up to now...working on kernel+tool options now tho :)
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15:55<@peter1138>lol @ giant screenshot
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15:59<Supercheese>also the wrong forum
16:00<frosch123>who? what? where? why?
16:00<Supercheese>Warning: giant inline image
16:01<frosch123>thanks, i knew i was missing something
16:01<Supercheese>Oh, user is currently editing that post
16:02<Supercheese>Guess my report is no longer valid :S
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16:46*peter1138 smirks at the existence of a 2.0 thread
16:48<@peter1138>whatever happened to the bridge pool?
16:49<Supercheese>the 2.0 thread is filled with empty wishes; people should work on something if they want to see it happen
16:50<Supercheese>Before I started making grfs, I was guilty of wishing for stuff, but I got fed up of that feeling and learned NML :P
16:53<__ln__> steam underground
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16:55<Supercheese>poor HVAC system must've had a fit with the exhausts
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17:01<Snail>2.0 thread?
17:03<@peter1138>Supercheese, secret about the london underground: it's not all underground
17:07<drac_boy>peter1138 indeed..nothing like watching tube trains running on ground level or even elevated lines :)
17:07<drac_boy>actually...I think I have to rib stimrol a bit about this... running ukrs2 tube trains on ground level :P
17:09<drac_boy>mm didn't think you'll be around know..these little red/white or all-white trains running at slow speed on the 3rd rail tracks? :)
17:09<drac_boy>if not then you hadn't been watching enough games :p
17:09<@peter1138>london underground uses 4th rail!
17:10<Stimrol>I pretend I understand you :)
17:10<Supercheese>Did I get a refit on fake subways to above ground yet? *checks code*
17:10<Supercheese>Can't even remember what I have and have not done yet :P
17:11<drac_boy>peter1138 I agree but nutracks probably didn't want to introduce something parallel to 3rd rail tracks that would have little function outside uk grfs
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17:14<Snail>peter1138: right now, one of OTTD's options enable us to either allow or disallow 90-degree curves from the game
17:14<Snail>could it be possible to add an option for each railtype to always allow 90-degrees curves, regardless of the player's choice?
17:15<Snail>NG has tighter curve radiuses in RL, and this could be a way to mimic this in a game
17:15<drac_boy>snail if player didn't want it why should grf force it?
17:15<drac_boy>theres a reason its a manual option
17:15<Supercheese>GRF parameter...?
17:15*Supercheese likes parameters
17:15<Snail>because if we did that, NG could have an advantage over SG in the game too (same advantage that it has in RL)
17:16*jasperthecat1 is right with Supercheese.
17:16<@peter1138>90° bends just cause issues with routing
17:17<Snail>even when it's allowed by the player?
17:17<@peter1138>only then
17:17<Snail>so you mean that, currently, if I play OTTD allowing 90-degrees curves, I will have issued with routing?
17:18<@Terkhen>good night
17:18<Snail>*issues not issued
17:18<@peter1138>dunno, may have been resolved now
17:20<Snail>if it's resolved, then adding such an option wouldn't hurt...?
17:23<@planetmaker>it only makes sense to allow different curve speeds imho. Implementing different PF for different rails is... bad. It breaks many things
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>hm... random suggestion: the (climate) availability flags currently have 4 bits free, so add these flags: 7) do not ask for prototype offer (wagons have this by default) 6) do not randomise introduction date 5) make introduction date depend on another vehicle (list of vehicle-ids in another property, minimum of all these vehicles is taken) 4) make retirement date depend on another vehicle (list like in 5, but maximum is taken)
17:23<@peter1138>there's compatible railtypes to consider
17:24<@planetmaker>e.g. the network suddently is broken, if you convert railtypes. The user has no way to check which RT has which rules.
17:26<@planetmaker>And I really also see little gameplay advantage over the existing different curve speed limits which you can already implement
17:26<Supercheese>Yeah, you can give lots of benefits to 45° NG rails over normal rails
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'm with Snail here, NG having 90° turns would be a unique advantage that brings "sense" into NG. only problem would be how to tell the user
17:27<Snail>planetmaker: it wouldn't be about speed limits, since NG is about slow trains anyway
17:27<Snail>it would be about tighter curves that would allow the construction of an NG network on mountainous areas, or areas that are more difficult to reach (as it is in RL)
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>well you could make SG trains have like 5km/h speed limits, but you can't currently control the speed limits that fine grained (yet)
17:28<@peter1138>the only time i ever need 90° bends is when i misplace a depot
17:29<@planetmaker>I would actually have removed that option ;-) But it breaks backward savegame capability
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>it breaks ships, the setting should be split...
17:30<Snail>we should have one setting per transport type (one for trains, one for ships)
17:31<Snail>and this would be about adding an option to the railtype definition to "ignore the user's 90-degrees curve setting", nothing else
17:31<@planetmaker>that'd be very bad. -1
17:32<@planetmaker>"ignore user settings" is a bug implemented
17:33<Snail>but even having the option of "not allowing 90-degrees curves" for all railtypes sounds fishy to me
17:33<Snail>this would allow more flexibility across the railtypes
17:33<@planetmaker>yes. 90° should always be forbidden. Looks ugly ;-)
17:34<@planetmaker>And using different routing for different railtypes is not desirable. There's no control for the user I can envision to see that
17:35<@planetmaker>And I, as user, want to forbid trains on *every* railtype 90° turns.
17:35<@planetmaker>that's what the setting is for.
17:35<@planetmaker>And that's what I use it for.
17:36<@planetmaker>why would a newgrf silently break that? And send me wondering?
17:36<@planetmaker>(no, not readme!)
17:36<Snail>readme is there to be read :p
17:37<Snail>we've also got an in-game version of the readme now
17:37<@planetmaker>that's of no importance here really
17:37<Snail>if you don't want 90-degrees turns, you would just not build them. But other users might want to exploit this feature, which comes from RL btw, so they should have the chance to
17:38<Snail>otherwise NG's advantages really boil down to lower prices and eye-candy
17:38<@planetmaker>Snail: that assumption of yours is wrong: not building != not trains using them
17:38<@planetmaker>I build them for impossible ways to not be taken. Like X
17:38<@peter1138>simple X crossings, yeah
17:38<@peter1138>anyway, i don't think the pathfinder can switch mid-pathfinding
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it would be a property of the vehicle's railtype, not the railtype the vehicle is on
17:39<@planetmaker>No, really. Pathfinder should be uniform for transport type
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>so a NG vehicle on dual-gauge track can do 90°, but a SG vehicle on the same dual-gauge track can't
17:40<@planetmaker>And tbh, I'm quite fine with NG being low-priced eye candy. Nothing wrong with that
17:40<Snail>I agree with Eddi here if this can be implemented
17:40<@peter1138>i think you should just allow 90° bends if you want 90° bends
17:40<Supercheese>Also offer them as trams? There's yer 90° turns :P
17:41<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that's even worse to explain IMHO
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: just put it in the purchase menu "this vehicle can do 90° turns"
17:41<@planetmaker>yeah. Just enable 90° turns and don't build them where you don't need them ;-)
17:41<Snail>why? the explanation could be, "NG trains can do 90-degrees turns"
17:41<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: and if I've disabled them it does them nontheless? Nah
17:42<Snail>like we have tilting trains
17:42<Snail>planetmaker: yes, because this would only apply to special trains. Tilting trains can do curves at a higher speed, now certain trains could do sharper bends
17:43<@planetmaker>Snail: NG is just a track. Nothing special. Next one allows them on funky rail. Or so. Or funky trains. Wherever (vehicle or rail) that's added. And still render the setting void. And lead to pointless wonder and bug reports
17:43<@planetmaker>Snail: slower doesn't change the way they can go. 90° changes *where* they go
17:43<@planetmaker>so that's something completely different
17:44<Snail>yes, but players would know if it's written in the purchase menu, so there wouldn't be any bug reports
17:44<@planetmaker>no-one guarantees that it's written there
17:45<Snail>well it'd be up to the newGRF developer. If he sets this specific type of trains to do 90-degree curves, he will also code the text in the purchase menu
17:45<@planetmaker>what stops you to just play with 90° turns enabled?
17:45<@planetmaker>what's wrong with that? you obviously want that
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the purchase menu should display more things anyway... currently it's up to the NewGRF to tell the user about tilt or railtype or...
17:45<@planetmaker>use it. it's there
17:45<@planetmaker>for you. for this purpose
17:45<Snail>planetmaker: because if I put 90-degree turns, it applies to *all* railtypes and *all* trains
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>and the worst thing is: NewGRF-text isn't displayed in the prototype offer
17:46<Snail>while my point is to give an advantage to NG
17:46<@planetmaker>Snail: don't build 90° on the one where you don't want it...
17:46<@planetmaker>then you got the advantage there
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's a completely stupid argument
17:46<Snail>no because of the "X" crossings
17:47<Snail>the same argument you had against my idea btw :p
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: like "don't build fast trains, now you have an advantage for slow trains"
17:48<Snail>this is why such a switch would be useful
17:48<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: and what's now wrong with giving a curve speed of approx 1km/h for non-NG trains and 90° and 100 km/h for NG?
17:48<NGC3982>Evening, animals.
17:48<@planetmaker>existing concept. problem solved
17:48<Snail>that wouldn't be realistic
17:48<@planetmaker>realism is no argument
17:48<@planetmaker>gameplay is.
17:48<Snail>well, indeed it is
17:49<@planetmaker>and that is in the curve speed's favour
17:49<Snail>my whole point was realism (NG has tighter curves than SG)
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: because you can't prevent trains from taking a X crossing, you would block it for AAAAAGES
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and 1km/h curve speed limit is currently NOT an existing feature
17:50<Snail>planetmaker: so for the gameplay point of view, it's not advisable to put such a limit
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>you can currently not define slower limits than the default railtype, only faster
17:50*NGC3982 doesn't like 90 degree turns.
17:50<@peter1138>but 90° turns are realistic!
17:51<@planetmaker>Snail: from gameplay POV different PF is the worst - you don't see the PF for single vehicles on the map overview
17:51<@planetmaker>and that's where you actually analyse your network
17:51<Snail>peter1138: what I'm saying is that NG would have tighter radius than SG, and this is the only way to implement this in OTTD
17:54<Supercheese>other than trams
17:54<Supercheese>which can't do diagonals, so are bad™
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>there are SG trams as well :p
17:56<Snail>there are BG trams too :p
17:57<Snail>toronto's trams are broad gauge for instance
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>(although those always look weird to me)
17:57<@planetmaker>iff there should be a setting ,the sane way would be a min_curve_radius setting. with a default of 0. And you could define larger min_curve_radius for other railtypes
17:58<@planetmaker>it would at the same time be more versatile
17:58<Snail>but it would have 2 settings
17:58<Snail>allow / disallow 90-degrees curves
17:58<@planetmaker>(so, the "allow 90°) is by far not "the only possibility".
17:59*NGC3982 could use that.
17:59<@planetmaker>I meant railtype property
17:59<Snail>why? you mean disallowing continuous curves? such as two back-to-back 45-degrees curves?
17:59<@planetmaker>that's not a curve
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but curve radius > 1 would be difficult to check in the pathfinder
17:59<@planetmaker>^^ curve
18:00<Snail>\_/ would be built with 2 45-degrees curves... from diagonal to horizontal then to the other diagonal... on multiple squares
18:01<@planetmaker>yes. if you meant that, I didn't get it as that
18:01<+michi_cc>Personally I wouldn't want different 90° settings all over the place as they are not discoverable enough (== stuff you can only figure out by reading the manual or by watching your trains suddenly break because you changed railtypes).
18:01<@planetmaker>+1 @ michi_cc
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>-0.5 @ michi_cc
18:02<Snail>michi_cc: my idea was to change nothing in the current way things are set... only to add an option for new railtypes
18:02<Snail>that one, connected to the text in the purchase menu, should give the users all info they need
18:02<@planetmaker>haha :-) that's the point, Snail. That exactly would add them "everywhere"
18:02<@peter1138>+∞ @ michi_cc
18:02<+michi_cc>An improved curve speed property makes much more sense as the current one is basically useless (lowest value much too high).
18:02<@planetmaker>+1 there, too
18:03<Snail>planetmaker: why everywhere? the newGRF developer should specifically set this
18:03<@peter1138>does curve speed even work properly yet?
18:03<Snail>and no one would unless they have a specific reason (such as NG)
18:03<@peter1138>with regards to shorter vehicles
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>66666 posts in openttd general...
18:03<@planetmaker>Snail: yes. And every railtype does its own thing. Thus you need to check everywhere
18:03<@planetmaker>and also possibly every vehicle
18:03<+michi_cc>peter1138: Not really.
18:03<@planetmaker>Snail: "no one would"... you bet they would!
18:03<@peter1138>it's still done on number of parts rather than actual length then
18:04<Snail>you'd only have to check in the purchase menu, nowhere else
18:04<@planetmaker>and check the tile's railtype etc
18:05<Snail>not if it applies to the vehicles set on a certain railtype, instead of the railtype itself
18:05<Supercheese>Crap, childsprites don't have their own bounding boxes
18:05<+michi_cc>It's especially only done for the part the train is on, so e.g. for a two tile train the limits is basically non-existent.
18:05<@planetmaker>and vehicles with compatible railtypes etc?
18:05<@peter1138>Supercheese, that's the whole purpose of childsprites
18:05<@planetmaker>which run on 14 of the 16 ones? Or which run on the "universal" railtype?
18:05<Supercheese>I was just using them because they're way easier to align @_@
18:05<Snail>you buy a vehicle and you check in the purchase menu. Compatible vehicles wouldn't benefit from this
18:05<@peter1138>do you need them to have their own bounding boxes?
18:05<Supercheese>friggin a
18:05<Snail>planetmaker: it's the same example of the dual-gauge railtype Eddi gave us
18:05<Supercheese>Sigh, time to re-re-realign
18:05<@peter1138>you're doing objects aren't you?
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: ONLY the railtype the vehicle is defined for
18:06<@peter1138>so... it doesn't really matter, surely?
18:06<Supercheese>I will switch to building
18:06<Supercheese>just... alignment, blegh
18:06<Snail>NG trains would do the curves, SG wouldn't. So, no need to check the railtype. Just the train
18:06<@peter1138>vehicles can't use object tiles, can they?
18:06<Snail>and that's written in the purchase menu
18:06<@peter1138>so there's not really much sorting needed
18:06<Supercheese>Oh, adjacent stuff looks strange
18:06<@peter1138>therefore the bounding box doesn't matter hugely
18:06<@planetmaker>Snail: and how do I know which of all my black steam engines now ... can do that?
18:06<Supercheese>should overlap but doesn't
18:07<@planetmaker>when I just look at the map?
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: unless you add objects with statemachines (onramps, drawbridges, ...) :p
18:07<Supercheese>these childsprites are a pixel or two overlapping the tile adjacent
18:07<Supercheese>and if you build a ship depot on the adjacent tile, they should be hidden by it, but aren't
18:07<Snail>you knew when you built them. They're most likely running on networks of their own, such as NG. This would be the key of the feature
18:08<Supercheese>I figure bounding boxes would sort that... no?
18:08<@peter1138>well a ship depot is at the back of the tile
18:08<@planetmaker>Snail: with 1000 vehicles I don't know... also not in a MP game. Or a game I got from s/o else
18:08<Supercheese>Oh god, FISH ships are huge
18:09<@planetmaker>and don't assume separate networks... one network with... different branches and different RT on the branches maybe
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you don't know each vehicle's speedlimit or railtype or tilt flag either...
18:09<Supercheese>they have way more overlap issues
18:09<@peter1138>none of that stops it routing
18:09<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes. But I know they all can go every tile, if I use compatible RTs
18:09<@peter1138>Supercheese, yes
18:09<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: thus I can verify my network without looking at vehicles at all
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it affects routing if it's electric or battery powered
18:10<Snail>planetmaker: but you don't know which railtypes they're compatible with
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>or "hybrid" or "DC" or ...
18:10<@planetmaker>Snail: you always have to assume that there's one RT which is compatible with *every* other RT
18:10<Snail>so you don't know if certain engines can go on non-electrified tracks too, if they're now running on electrified
18:10<@peter1138>change the advanced setting from permit/deny to permit/deny/newgrfdecides
18:10<@planetmaker>you don't use it. I don't. But it exists
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i told you already that it doesn't matter
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the vehicle defines which railtype it's built for
18:11<@peter1138>change all occurances of checking for the setting to test the railtype (which also tests the setting)
18:11<@peter1138>provide patch
18:11<@peter1138>then talk ;)
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so a NG vehicle can do 90° turns on universal (multi-gauge) track, the SG vehicle can't
18:11<@peter1138>shouldn't be too hard
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>no magic involved
18:12<@peter1138>i want magic :-(
18:13<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: then still: introduce a setting for vehicles with the min_curve_radius. And not a "allow 90°"
18:13*Supercheese likes magic
18:13<Snail>planetmaker: how to define min_curve_radius?
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's an ugly workaround, not a solution (and i also told you why)
18:15<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, that's not a workaround, that's extending it
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>sorry, i misread, i thought i read speed limit
18:16<Snail>ok... so how to define min_curve_radius?
18:16<@planetmaker>Snail: curve_radius is defined already... same as for curve_speed_limit
18:16<@peter1138>min_curve_radius would be a lot more work
18:16<@planetmaker>it would indeed
18:17<@peter1138>i don't think curve radius is a pathfinder penalty, is it?
18:17<@planetmaker>not sure... guess not
18:20<Snail>yes I was looking at it now...
18:20<Snail>but this obviously doesn't include 90-degrees turns, does it?
18:20<@peter1138>why not?
18:21<@planetmaker>the author there simply didn't care. Of course it applies
18:21<@peter1138>curve length in tiles = 0
18:23<Snail>you mean this?
---Logclosed Sun Jan 13 18:31:15 2013
---Logopened Sun Jan 13 18:48:32 2013
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18:48<drac_boy>neverminding the ones that build depot in front of the 2-platform station junction too (although I guess that was in TT tutorials too)
18:48<Snail>exactly, that's what I was thinking about
18:49<Snail>it would be a nice extension, but how useful?
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18:51<NGC3982>I think i, for the first time, almost burned my girl friends house down today
18:52<Supercheese>I hope you're not planning for a second time :O
18:53<NGC3982>Due to a faulty light bulb in her bathroom, i put a live candle in there
18:53<NGC3982>Right under the bathroom mirror cabinette
18:53<NGC3982>Not the best thing ive ever done.
18:54<@peter1138>oh dear
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18:57<NGC3982>We luckily found it before anything catched fire
18:57<NGC3982>But the cabinette was ruined, and i have spent the day reparing it
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19:12<Flygon>drac_boy: I am that lazy about depots :p
19:12<Flygon>Issue is... when I autoreplace trains
19:13<Flygon>It still misses depots half the time
19:14<drac_boy>heh? :P
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19:26<Flygon>So, yeah
19:26<Flygon>Pathfinding AI is horrid
19:26<Flygon>At least, it's perfect... when not finding a depot
19:26*peter1138 ponders off-map storage for signals
19:26<drac_boy>heh hmm guess what I came across?
19:27<drac_boy>forgot who it was in here tho...or is that still Alberth?
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21:35<Supercheese>Weird, my sound effects are only playing in temperate, and not in arctic or tropic
21:35<Supercheese>sfx for my grf, I mean
21:37<Supercheese>very strange
21:41<Supercheese>is there some strange things regarding sound effects and climate?
21:41<Supercheese>are there&
21:41<Supercheese>there* derp
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22:59<Supercheese>Wait, the Company Headquarters is treated like an Object, like company land and lighthouses?
23:03<Supercheese>Then... then... newobjects can accept and generate cargo!
23:04<Supercheese>Well, if someone codes support for it (which is the answer to many many questions) :P
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 14 00:00:00 2013