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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-05-12

---Logopened Sun May 12 00:00:00 2013
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02:44<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:54<@Alberth>is there a way to detect whether an industry has limits on its acceptance rate, other than observing i->incoming_cargo_waiting[..] becoming > 0 ?
04:57<@planetmaker>I think not
04:57<@planetmaker>and it would be very hard to accurately get that: it could be 0 in January, 10 in March and 150 in August
04:58<@planetmaker>newgrfs have callbacks for acceptance. And can do basically everything there
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04:58<@Alberth>yeah, I thought as much :(
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05:06<@planetmaker>Alberth, what you can probably do, though: check for that callback being active at all
05:06<@Alberth>ieks, the phone of LordAro plays OpenTTD!
05:07<@Alberth>hi :)
05:07<@planetmaker>hi LordAro|Phone
05:07<LordAro|Phone>Heh :)
05:07<LordAro|Phone>Hi planetmaker &Alberth
05:08<@Alberth>I want to remove the "cargo waiting to be processed" text lines when not needed
05:08<@planetmaker>Alberth, property 22 industries, bit 4 (input) and 5 (for output)
05:10<@planetmaker>hm, that's rather related to production callback, no?
05:11<@Alberth>could be, the structure of the newgrf specs are beyond my understanding
05:11<@planetmaker>how much of the delivered cargo is processed is determined by the production callback. Which normally is run as often till there's no cargo left
05:12<@Alberth>for some industry sets :p
05:12<@planetmaker>also default industries
05:12<@Alberth>yes, but they don't have the callback afaik
05:12<@planetmaker>default behaviour is basically to run the production callback till all input is processed upon delivery of cargo
05:13<@planetmaker>I'm quite sure it's the same code. That callback needs not activation
05:13<@Alberth>ah, ok
05:14<@planetmaker>hm, no frosch here to kick me when I tell bullshit :D
05:16<@Alberth>it's too early :)
05:17<@planetmaker>btw, Alberth did you plan to look at NML's snowline?
05:18<@Alberth>I figured out what to do, ie add a multiplication/division code to each value the user supplies so it scales correctly
05:19<@planetmaker>hi NGC3982
05:19<@Alberth>the code after that should then continue to work
05:19<NGC3982>What is up?
05:19<alluke>the ceiling
05:19<@Alberth>the Internet is up
05:19<@planetmaker>rain clouds
05:20<@Alberth>and some sun
05:20<@planetmaker>not a single bit. Or better: well-hidden
05:20<wakou2>Hi guys!
05:20*Alberth sends some rays to planetmaker
05:20<@Alberth>hi wakou2
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05:21<@planetmaker>Alberth, feel free to commit, if you have anything working
05:21<wakou2>Could one of you do me a little favour please.... I am sure it would be a trivial matter for you, and about three week of work/study for me...
05:21<NGC3982>I have a clear sky, but it's a tad cold.
05:21<NGC3982>So if you could DCC me some rays, i'd be happy.
05:22<@Alberth>wakou2: that will be probably be 3 weeks well spent, you can use that knowledge for the remainder of your life
05:22<wakou2>I could just record it I suppose, but I 'need' the .wav or sound that 'the people' make when a new vehicle is introduced....
05:22<__ln__>the sound is most likely copyrighted
05:23<@Alberth>it definitely has a copyright, but its license may allow some uses
05:23<@planetmaker>it is. Under GPL v2 for instance
05:23<@planetmaker>one of them
05:23<wakou2>Alberth: Yes, you are quite correct, of course. But my poor old brain simply does not 'get' coding, even a four line bash script makes me faint.
05:23<@Alberth>bash is horrible anyway :)
05:24<@Alberth>use Python instead, much saner
05:24<NGC3982>wakou2: What do you need it for?
05:25<wakou2>And when people advise me to use sed or awk.........and give me an example consisting entirely of punctuation marks, I have to turn to strong drugs....
05:25<wakou2>NGC3982: a trivial reason, but sort of important to me......
05:26<@Alberth>wakou2: they are fun to make, but not too often :)
05:26<wakou2>You see, my first love was a pretty girl..................................
05:26<wakou2>#wakou drifts off in to an old man's reverie
05:27<wakou2>That sound file reminds me of her, and she is chatting to me on Facebook (we are both in our fifties!)
05:27<wakou2>And I would like to send it to her so she know WTF I am talking about....
05:28<@Alberth>she doesn't play OpenTTD? :(
05:28<@Alberth>planetmaker: perhaps something in this direction
05:28<wakou2>That is why we never married. Simply incompatible!
05:32<@Rubidium>wakou2: see opensfx's sources, but you'll need to check what license it has and thus what you're allowed to do with it. It's definitely not GPL
05:38<@planetmaker>oh... sounds. yes, they're not gpl yet
05:41<@planetmaker>hm, looks interesting, Alberth
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05:57<wakou2>Rubidium: TY Ty
05:57<wakou2>BRB, called away
06:01<NGC3982>Ah, this feels refreshing.
06:02<NGC3982>Haven't played for a while now, and recently joined one of my own servers
06:02<NGC3982>Don't you just love coming back to good stuff after some time without it?
06:08<@planetmaker>"thanks for 18.6 billion Euro tax money. As we feel the need to say thanks, we prepared a chocolate present in our premises for you"...
06:10<@planetmaker>one of the banks which had to be bought by the state
06:10<@planetmaker>and ad of them
06:11<LordAro|Phone>They sound like nice people
06:12<@Alberth>they royally mess up with money of normal people, the state saves them, and they offer chocolate????
06:12<@planetmaker>right that.
06:12<@planetmaker>they recently made an effort to buy back the shares the state bought. But... yeah.
06:12<NGC3982>Something tells me, they do not agree on the idea that they messed up.
06:13<@Alberth>pretty much every bank in the world did
06:14<LordAro|Phone>In britain, we give them lots of money, but they continue to pay themselves (executives) vast bonuses (>£500000)
06:14<@Alberth>yeah, ain't it great?
06:15<NGC3982>Blame your government
06:15<NGC3982>Not the banks.
06:15<@Alberth>how do you convert a real number to integer in NML/NFO?
06:15<@planetmaker>NML knows int( )
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i do think it's fake/satire though
06:15<@planetmaker>NFO knows no real number
06:16<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: That was my first impression. They aren't that dumb..
06:16<@planetmaker>I'd not count on that ^
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06:17<@Alberth>planetmaker: int() works on constants only, it seems
06:17<@Alberth>if not isinstance(val, (ConstantNumeric, ConstantFloat)): raise generic.ScriptError("Parameter for " + name + "() must be a constant", pos)
06:18<@Alberth>expression/ line 403
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: what else would you use it on?
06:19<@planetmaker>hm... there's one problem with snowline from 0 ... 1: NewGRF Parameters can only be integer
06:19<@Alberth>planetmaker: hmm, no reals in NFO?? then what value is the parameter when you want snow at say 0.3 ?
06:19<@planetmaker>using 0 .. 1 as value there makes using parameters tricky. Or impossible?
06:19<@planetmaker>@calc 0.3*254
06:19<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 76.2
06:20<@planetmaker>76 :D
06:20<@Alberth>the user enters 76?
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>just make it 0..100 and say it's percent
06:21<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: good idea
06:21<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes, user would need enter 76 in the parameter
06:21<@planetmaker>and get snowline height of likely 5 or so
06:21<@Alberth>so no scaling at all then?
06:21<@planetmaker>up to the newgrf
06:22<@planetmaker>I'd offer the user height levels
06:22<@planetmaker>and scale that 0 ... 16 to 0 ... 254
06:22<@planetmaker>of course... we could simply say in NML: there's no height beyond 16 (yet). Thus we only allow values 0 ... 16
06:22<@Alberth>ok, so what would you enter in the snowline table then?
06:22<@planetmaker>but that then would need change again, should there ever be more height level patch
06:23<@planetmaker>the snowline table must have the values scaled to 0 ... 254
06:23<@planetmaker>@calc 255/16
06:23<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 15.9375
06:23<@planetmaker>param_snowline * 16
06:23<@Alberth>in NFO it must, what about NML snowline table?
06:23<@planetmaker>^ that's what I'd put there
06:24<@planetmaker>oh, hm
06:24<@Alberth>Hoe many heightlevels has the 'more height level patch' ?
06:24<@planetmaker>parameter severely screws a sane value range
06:24<@Alberth>100, or more?
06:24<@planetmaker>64, 128, 256... depends, I guess
06:25<@Alberth>0-1000 seems the next sane scale then
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>i do see advantages for both absolute and relative levels
06:26<@planetmaker>yes ^
06:26<@planetmaker>both has pros and cons
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>and what exactly is holding back the moreheightlevels anyway?
06:27<@planetmaker>pile of code, I guess
06:28<@Alberth>absolute versus relative is a different problem imho
06:29<@planetmaker>I agree. And sorry, I did not think of the parameter thing before
06:29<@planetmaker>in conjunction with int ()
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>"float parameters" could be an action14 thing?
06:31<@planetmaker>Possibly could, yes
06:31<@planetmaker>patch! :-P
06:31<@planetmaker>though it has the problem of multiplayer and float
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. you give a min, max and step mapping from float to int
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06:32<@planetmaker>@calc 15*16
06:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 240
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>internally they are all integer values
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>only for display they are converted to float
06:33<@planetmaker>hm, yes, that might work
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>so you define 0=0 and 1=255, then it'll display 0.5 but the value is 128
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>or something
06:34<@planetmaker>Alberth, in the sense of parameters... possibly I've been thinking too complicated. Maybe we just go for plain nfo values 0 ... 254 with special value 255 = SNOWLINE_NOWHERE
06:35<@Alberth>it's a bit weird to have an entire table for 255 :)
06:36<@Alberth>tbh, 0-1000 or "no_snow" seems nicer to me
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>is someone playing 256 heightlevels really bothered that he can only set the snowline on 125 and 127 and not 126 when the range is 0..100?
06:38<@planetmaker>my problem is: how do I work with parameters then, Alberth. Assume I want - as I do - set snowline via parameter at two dates and interpolate
06:39<@planetmaker> date: int(-50 * cos(2.0 * 3.141596 * (date - 15) / 365)) * snowline_2xamplitude / 100 + snowline_offset;
06:39<@planetmaker>snowline_2xamplitude = (param_snow_july - param_snow_january);
06:39<@planetmaker>snowline_offset = min(param_snow_january, param_snow_july) + abs(snowline_2xamplitude / 2);
06:39<@Alberth>you currently use "equal" it seems, and not "linear"
06:39<@planetmaker>yes, I know. To save calculations. And the separation is close enough
06:39<@planetmaker>in time
06:40<@planetmaker>and cosine != linear :-)
06:40<@Alberth>I only look at what you do in the snowline table :)
06:41<@planetmaker>:-) I calculate heights first for dates. Then set it.
06:41<@Alberth>how does your caclulation fail in the new range of values?
06:41<@Alberth>ie it goes from the current 2-29 to 0-1000
06:42<@Alberth>which should be fixable by adjusting some magic multiplication constants
06:42<@planetmaker>Yes, would
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>if you have 0..<range-1> as parameter, just put int(cos*100)*param*254/100/range into the table
06:43<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: the point is that for NML input, you don't want to see the 254
06:44<@Alberth>at least, that's what I think
06:44<@planetmaker>I agree, Alberth
06:44<@planetmaker>ok... 0 ... 100?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>just make it a "unit" like km/h or mph?
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>so you write "tiles" or "percent", and it'll be converted?
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06:45<@planetmaker>that sounds to me like the nicest solution really
06:46<@planetmaker>and most complicated
06:46<@planetmaker>guten Hunger, Alberth
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>or "nfo" for no conversion
06:46<@planetmaker>err... enjoy your mean ^
06:46<@planetmaker>bah... *meal.
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06:47<Eddi|zuHause>"you're mean" :p
06:48<@planetmaker>yes, also that. I removed binaries after a week someone asked for source without asking again
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06:54<frosch123>moin :)
06:55<@planetmaker>moin green-skin
06:56<frosch123>oh, never noticed that combining frogs with unicorns results in greenhorns :)
06:57<frosch123> <- Alberth: i thought about letting the newgrf decide whether the text should be displayed
06:57<frosch123>i think hiding and displaying it depending on whether stuff is waiting is weird
06:58<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: "tiles" won't work, as I don't know the number of heightlevels in the game at compile time
06:59<@planetmaker>how difficult is it to add a "%" unit - and use NFO units, if that is not used?
07:00<@Alberth>frosch123: indeed, that is also my problem
07:00<@Alberth>so your solution seems a better direction to me
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07:02<@Alberth>planetmaker: not so difficult, basically just wrap whatever value you supply in the input in a conversion expression (ie from your supplied "X" to "X * 254 / 100")
07:04<@planetmaker>so we accept statements like
07:04<@planetmaker>1: 128
07:04<@planetmaker>15: 55%
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07:05<@planetmaker>and convert 55% to... 55/100*254
07:05<@Alberth>something in that direction indeed
07:05<@planetmaker>probably "55 percent" though in order to avoid conflicts wtih operator
07:06<@planetmaker>alternatively percent is normal and nfo means no conversion :-)
07:06<@planetmaker>what's better?
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>the latter, i think
07:06<@planetmaker>'nfo' exists already as unit
07:06<@Alberth>always a unit?
07:06<@planetmaker>:-) or that
07:06<@planetmaker>makes it clear
07:07<@Alberth>33m :p
07:07<@planetmaker>ogfx-landscape? likely
07:07<@Alberth>just kidding :)
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07:31<@Alberth>hmm, no 'percent' unit in nml, and it feels tmwftlb to add it
07:31<frosch123>what unit does TE take?
07:31<frosch123>maybe 0 to 1?
07:32<frosch123>as float
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>"float" is problematic because you can only use constants then, not parameters
07:32<frosch123>then you are also screwed with %, aren't you?
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, because % would allow for some integer maths
07:34<@Alberth>p * 254 / 100
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>you could do "float" with no unit, and "int" with "percent" and "nfo" units
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>0..1, 0..100 and 0..254 respectively
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07:40<@planetmaker> @ Alberth ?
07:41<@Alberth>the literal may be tricky (ie snow% could be parsed as snow % ), but perhaps "percent" ?
07:42<@planetmaker>I'm somewhat reluctant to use plain 'percent'. It'd be blocked to be used anywhere else. Even when other scaling is needed
07:43<@planetmaker>that's how I understand it currently at least
07:43<frosch123>why do you scale to 254?
07:43<frosch123>not 255?
07:43<@planetmaker>255 = nowhere. regardless of height
07:43<frosch123>yeah, and should you not be allowed to enter that value as "100 %" ?
07:44<@planetmaker>hm. probably :-)
07:45<frosch123>and isn't it then the same percentage as for TE ?
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07:46<@Alberth>so 90% snow is only a little bit?
07:46<frosch123>it's snowline height, nor snow height :p
07:46<frosch123>100% snowheight of total landscape height would be a nice glacier though
07:47<@Alberth>exactly, so using 100% for no snow makes little sense imo
07:48<frosch123>if the snowline is at 100% of total landscape height, that means the snowline is above the landscape
07:48<frosch123>thus no snow
07:48<@Alberth>hmm, good point
07:48<@Alberth>I was thinking in amount of snow
07:49<@Alberth>which is perhaps a better notion from NML perspective
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>i would find that very confusing, if you use the reciproke in NML than everywhere else (settings, NFO, ...)
07:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25235 /trunk (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-05-12 11:53:53 UTC)
07:54<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5543]: keep all cargo whenever cancelling reservations (fonsinchen)
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07:55<@planetmaker>yes, I'd keep 100% = highest height
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09:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r25236 trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp (2013-05-12 13:12:55 UTC)
09:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix [FS#5547]: crash when AI is executing a command as it is bankrupted (removed from the game)
09:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The command is placed in a queue for processing before it is bankrupted, after that the command
09:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: is executed. This command yields a failure because the company does not exist, but then it still
09:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: needs to call the callback. This callback tries to access the AI's virtual machine without any
09:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
09:14<TrueBrain>stop making large commit messages that triggers my highlight! :@ :D <3
09:15<+glx>hmm why does it hl you ?
09:16<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
09:16<TrueBrain>hmm, funny, that doesnt work :P
09:16<+glx>in notice you are not hled
09:16<TrueBrain>it does it when the stuff is too large :P
09:16<TrueBrain>I believe there it has 1 or 2 lines more?
09:16<+glx>and of course it's a kind of hack so @more fails
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09:25<frosch123>if it would depend on number of lines, then it would trigger for wt3
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 25236
09:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r25236 trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp (2013-05-12 13:12:55 UTC)
09:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#5547]: crash when AI is executing a command as it is bankrupted (removed from the game)
09:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: The command is placed in a queue for processing before it is bankrupted, after that the command
09:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: is executed. This command yields a failure because the company does not exist, but then it still
09:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: needs to call the callback. This callback tries to access the AI's virtual machine without any
09:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: (...)
09:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, why doesn't it work?
09:27<+glx>oh totally broken
09:27<+glx>stupid DorpsGek
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13:28<Etheereal>and hi
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25237 /trunk/src/lang (unfinished/frisian.txt welsh.txt) (2013-05-12 17:45:13 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>frisian - 8 changes by Flexo
13:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 9 changes by kazzie
13:54<Etheereal>hello Alberth
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15:05<imbitable>hi :)
15:07<imbitable>hi Rubidium
15:07<imbitable>first time on irc since... maybe 7 years
15:08<imbitable>it's a bit awkward :D
15:19<oskari89>Has anybody noticed, that how hard it is to maintain proper tracking table with changes on grf?
15:19<@Alberth>what exactly are you tracking?
15:19<oskari89>The graphics
15:20<oskari89>And the properties too
15:20<oskari89>Of vehicles
15:20<@Alberth>do you use a version control system?
15:21<oskari89>No, haven't heard of that
15:21<@Alberth>at least tracking textual changes is easy then
15:21<oskari89>DevZone is used
15:21<+glx>devzone has a vcs IIRC
15:21<@Alberth>ah, so you use HG (or Mercurial) ?
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15:22<@Alberth>hi Zuu
15:22<Zuu>Hello Alberth
15:22<LordAro>hi Zuu
15:22<oskari89>Alberth: Mercurial i think
15:22<oskari89>But as tracking table, i meant this:
15:23<@Alberth>then you already use a version control system :)
15:23<LordAro>oskari89: mercurial is an example of a version control system :)
15:23<LordAro>Alberth is too fast :l
15:23<oskari89>It's a pain to update that always manually :P
15:23<oskari89>Since the graphics change so often
15:24<oskari89>And more of them, stats do change, etc....
15:24<@Alberth>ok, where does the data come from then?
15:25<+glx>just add a rule for commits: update this table before each commit
15:25<+glx>way easier
15:25<Zuu>You could do like andythenorth and generate the website from the NewGRF data.
15:25<oskari89>That could be nice :)
15:26<@Alberth>link the graphics directly from the devzone
15:26<oskari89>True :P
15:26<oskari89>But then, stat changes must be done manually
15:26<@Alberth>do you have the stats elsewhere?
15:27<oskari89>On the already coded NML
15:27<@Alberth>by definition you don't want 2 sets of stats :)
15:27<Zuu>For the SCP docs that are in the wiki, there is a script that generate the wiki source. :-)
15:27<+glx>write a parser to generate the file
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>do it like CETS and get the stats from a tracking table :)
15:27<@Alberth>just CPP is easier perhaps
15:36<juzza1>can someone here change my username for the openttd wiki?
15:37<juzza1>for some idiotic reason i didnt register with my tt-forums/irc nickname
15:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r25238 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2013-05-12 19:38:30 UTC)
15:38<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Display imminent closure of an industry in its view window.
15:39<@Alberth>send an email to info@openttd
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15:39<@Alberth>although I don't know what the policy of such requests is
15:41<@Alberth>oskari89: as you can see, people don't use the NML source as starting point; they store the data in another way, and generate the NML parts from that data
15:49<+glx>Alberth: and the generated NML is then too big to be compiled ;)
15:49<@Alberth>and you can generate your html file from that data as well
15:51<@Alberth>some people hack NML to get around it ;)
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16:14*Eddi|zuHause whistles innocently
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16:20<@Alberth>good night
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17:38<@Terkhen>good night
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18:08<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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18:33<@planetmaker>juzza1, you're a funny guy. You ask for a user name change, but don't give your current user name...
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18:35<V453000>that is simple math pm, he has only one name so if he gave you one he wouldnt have any :P sad panda then
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---Logclosed Mon May 13 00:00:02 2013