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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-15

---Logopened Sun Jun 15 00:00:03 2014
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03:13<LSky`>did 1.4.1 introduce a desync issue?
03:13<LSky`>i never had those on vanilla openttd
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03:19<@Alberth>no idea, have a look at the bug tracker
03:23<peter1139>Never? Plenty of older versions had them :D
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03:25<@Alberth>indeed, it is quite safe to assume they exist, the question is whether you run into them
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03:36<@planetmaker>LSky`, OpenTTD 1.4.1 is also a version of vanilla OpenTTD :). Yet I'd think introducing a new desync in 1.4.1 is unlikely
03:37<@planetmaker>but there may of course lurk unfound ones
03:45*V453000 did not make trains change cargo capacity on the go :P
03:48<LSky`>planetmaker, i know its vanilla ^^
03:48<LSky`>hence my surprise when I desynced twice
03:48<LSky`>[09:14] <Server1> *** LSky has left the game (desync error)
03:48<LSky`>[09:14] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
03:48<LSky`>[09:34] <Server1> *** Teoandre has left the game (desync error)
03:48<LSky`>[09:34] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
03:48<LSky`>[09:35] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
03:48<LSky`>[09:36] <Server1> *** Player #1 has left the game (desync error)
03:49<@Alberth>make a bug report
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03:50<LSky`>could it be an autopilot issue?
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03:50<LSky`>netsplit :|?
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03:51<LSky`>anyway, could it be related to autopilot?
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03:52<LSky`>the only recent change to the server, other than updating it from 1.4.0 to 1.4.1 is a change to autopilot, allowing moderator commands through IRC
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03:53<LSky`>seems weird to me that thats related to desyncs though
03:53<@Alberth>extremely unlikely
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03:53<@Alberth>hi hi DorpsGek
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03:53<@Alberth>desyncs happen because game state between client and server is different
03:54<@Alberth>giving command texts through whatever means is not yet game state
03:54<LSky`>the commands arent even being given
03:55<LSky`>but enabling those commands is the only recent change the server underwent, other than the 1.4.1 update
03:55<@Alberth>it's not in the core of the program
03:56<LSky`>theres one bug report on desyncs, from yesterday
03:56<LSky`>but that seems to have a different cause
04:12<@planetmaker>you mean the tcl script thingy?
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04:13<@planetmaker>lol, 6044 is nice :)
04:13<@planetmaker>anyway, gotta go. see you in the evening. Have fun :)
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05:23<cookins>hi all
05:23<cookins>i have newb question
05:24<cookins>who will answer
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05:25<TrueBrain>@topic 3
05:25<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
05:25<TrueBrain>dammit :D
05:25<TrueBrain>@topic #openttd 3
05:25<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
05:25<TrueBrain>I hate this IRC bot :P Useless piece of crap :(
05:25<V453000>@topic get 3
05:25<@DorpsGek>V453000: Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:25<V453000>I win
05:26<TrueBrain>yes, you do
05:26<cookins>concerned about gameplay
05:27<V453000>just ask. :D
05:29<TrueBrain>where is the fun in that V453000 :D
05:29<TrueBrain>he is building up to it
05:29<TrueBrain>maybe he throws in a cookie in a moment
05:29<V453000>I can see that :)
05:29<TrueBrain>possible amazon cookies
05:29<cookins>i transporting oil from sea side to surface to dock; from dock oil truckers loading it and unload to cargo side that receives oil (that was typed when i built it there)
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05:30<cookins>so oil not take to oil factory that makes items for city, from that cargo side where i unload oil
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05:31<@Alberth>hi hi
05:31<Wolf01>hi o/
05:32<cookins>it stays there, but there said it receiving it (oil)
05:33<@Alberth>don't use "transfer" at the final destination
05:33<V453000>and you are sure your orders are on unload and leave empty, not transfer and leave empty
05:33<V453000>hy Alberth
05:33<cookins>why it not going directly to factory like every thing.?
05:33<@Alberth>transfer means "unload here for further transport"
05:34<cookins>if not transfer than it unload and loads again and going back
05:34<@Alberth>and yes, you do want to be able to do that even with a factory right next to it that could also accept the cargo
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05:34<@Alberth>hi V
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05:35<cookins>damn i crashed. who answer me?
05:35<cookins>so it loading it back then if not transfer
05:36<@Alberth>you can check there exactly :)
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05:42<V453000>are you 100% sure that the oil refinery is inside the catchment area of the station?
05:45<@Alberth>we may never know
05:46<V453000>the mystery shall remain undiscovered
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09:07<toobored>is it possible to get a ro-ro terminus stations with a 90-bend?
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09:45<chelsea>try thys one it is the first time when i win some money
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10:13<@Alberth>toobored: ro-ro terminus?
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10:51<@planetmaker>hi hi
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10:53<@planetmaker>thanks :) Seems driving a motor vessel is different than sailing :P
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11:02<@Alberth>depends on the amount of moving air :)
11:04<@Alberth>>>> import lex
11:04<@Alberth>>>> print(lex)
11:04<@Alberth><module 'lex' from './'>
11:05<@Alberth>now figure out what the module should actually do :p
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>the lexer lexes, obviously
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>basically you feed the lexer regexpses and it throws out tokens
11:07<@Alberth>I wrote this one, so it doesn't yet :)
11:09<toobored>Alberth: hahaha silly contradiction. it just means a terminus stations without the trains exiting blocking the trains entering
11:10<@Alberth>toobored: ?
11:10<@planetmaker>that's possible. but I still don't get your 90° bend there, toobored
11:11<toobored>planetmaker: had a town grown too much around a station and I cannot get the lines and the station in the same straight line :(
11:11<@Alberth>oh, a challenge :)
11:12<toobored>actually it was bad design... not that the city grew
11:12<toobored>let me get a pic of what I did at the end
11:14<toobored>I think that will work
11:17<@planetmaker>There's plenty of space
11:17<@planetmaker>but I'd make it a roro turned 90°
11:17<@planetmaker>and giving the space currently covered by the station to the town
11:18<@planetmaker>and building the station there where the road bridge currently spans the rails
11:18<toobored>roro meaning having the trains leave at the other end?
11:18<@planetmaker>a station where trains can path through. both ways
11:18<@planetmaker>at least you want both way traffic in this case, I think
11:19<toobored>the first 4-5 tracks connect to a station on the left side, the other 2-3 tracks connect on another heavytraffic station on the right.
11:20<toobored>cargodist enabled
11:20<@planetmaker>omg, that's two stations?!
11:21<toobored>the one you see is ONE. but it connects to two stations.
11:21<@planetmaker>anyway, you want the station for the trains coming from the South-East (lower left) such that there's no turn for them
11:22<toobored>yeah. so i have to change orientation
11:22<@planetmaker>with that trainlength you can't make a sensible 90° turn in that space
11:24<toobored>(given that I considered that my 'good design')
11:27<@planetmaker>well, not embarassing. What I say is towards how *I* would build and consider an efficient, nice network by my standards. By other standards (and OpenTTD allows for a HUGE amount of different ones), it certainly works
11:28<@planetmaker>and if you really want, one can make something with the existing station tracks. Not pretty IMHO, but would work somewhat
11:28<@planetmaker>it also depends on the expected traffic
11:28<toobored>5k pax per month from each direction :P
11:28<toobored>at least
11:29<toobored>I'll start again this specific game to get better designs, I got pretty rushy at some point and wasn't thinking things over
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11:31<@planetmaker>rather in trains :) And no point to restart a specific game IMHO. Just rebuild the existing tracks
11:31<@planetmaker>for me that would be more fun than starting from scratch. An evolved map offers more challenges
11:32<toobored>I have many routes that need .... 'redesign'
11:32<@planetmaker>toobored, well, good :) Much fun ahead then! :)
11:32<@planetmaker>did you ever play on one of the openttdcoop servers?
11:33<toobored>not really..
11:34<toobored>i'm planning on it but openttd it's just a good break from vector analysis
11:34<@planetmaker>hehe :)
11:35<@planetmaker>but you sound like you would enjoy building there and find similar-minded people there :)
11:35<toobored>yeah but I'm a very bad player
11:35<toobored>don't want to ruin a map :P
11:35<@planetmaker>one can only improve by practise :P And there's the welcome aka stable server where people can just experiment
11:35<@planetmaker>but you'll get feedback and you can cooperate...
11:36<@Alberth>planetmaker: it's a start :)
11:36<@Alberth>and the best thing, people work together, so you don't need to do all yourself :)
11:38<@planetmaker>you're fast, Alberth :)
11:38<toobored>Alberth: hehe correct.
11:38<@Alberth>this was the easy part, just define a few patterns, throw it in the generator, add a wrapper, et voila :)
11:38<toobored>btw, I tried to check if it was easy to change some things in 2cc trainset...
11:39<toobored>my god NFO..... what a brainfuck
11:39<@planetmaker>there's 2ccts in NML being coded currently
11:39<@Alberth>planetmaker: it doesn't do line or column counting, or minor stuff like returning the identifier or numeric value :)
11:41<V453000>dont worry about ruining anything, to start with you can play in your own company on openttdcoop welcome server, and if you listen to what people tell you, you get to build well very quickly :)
11:42<toobored>i haven't undestood one thing yet....
11:42<toobored>how time 'passes' on the server?
11:42<toobored>everyone logs off and things still move?
11:42<V453000>on intelligent servers no
11:42<V453000>if 1 person is there, it unpauses
11:42<V453000>0 people = pause
11:42<@planetmaker>Alberth, I guess line counting is mostly trivial
11:43<@Alberth>planetmaker: yeah, until you get #line crap :p
11:43<toobored>V453000: makes sense.
11:43<@planetmaker>and if you've lex'ed it, outputting the ID in the same array might not be too difficult either?
11:43<@Alberth>but no worries I was not going to code that in C :)
11:43<toobored>planetmaker: on bad designs
11:44<@planetmaker>I've seen worse, toobored
11:44<@Alberth>planetmaker: true, it's mostly a matter of adding it
11:45<toobored>Alberth: what's wrong with C?
11:45<@planetmaker>Alberth, well, not C? C++? Or you rather mean splitting lexer and compiler?
11:45<@Alberth>toobored: too much detail if you can also do it in Python :)
11:45<@planetmaker>toobored, nothing. But it's not the solution for everything
11:46<V453000>toobored: that isnt so bad, you can work from that
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11:48<@Alberth>planetmaker: there is a stack of filenames encountered in #line directives, which gets updated and copied quite often in the current scanner. I don't want to code a stack of file+line information in C such that Python can access it
11:49<@Alberth>better let python handle the entire stack on its own
11:49<@planetmaker>aye, ok. Makes sense
11:50<toobored>Alberth: I found python after a couple of projects inefficient. (thread implementation in specific)
11:50<@Alberth>toobored: threads are usually the wrong solution for a problem
11:51<@Alberth>and yes, Python has a GIL, veryy effective at killing htreads
11:51<toobored>that. plus I had a problem with the clock functions :(
11:51<toobored>they are not guarenteed to be monotonic
11:52<@Alberth>they are just system clocks, afaik
11:54<@Alberth>ah right, I don't do that stuff, I normally just run computations
11:56<toobored>yeah for simple stuff it's pretty much ok.
11:57<toobored>although complex project tend to collapse on their own in pretty much every lang
11:58<toobored>either that or i'm slow/stupid and not able to comprehend the beauty of complexity
11:59<@Alberth>there is a difference between complex and big :)
11:59<@planetmaker>there's also a difference between necessary complexity and 'boiler plate' complexity
11:59<@Alberth>the former you want to avoid, the latter is not much of a problem, it just takes more work
11:59<@planetmaker>or however one may call the latter
12:00<@Alberth>most people call something "complex" when they do not understand it
12:00<@planetmaker>yup :)
12:00<@planetmaker>and mathematicians anything which once was proven trivial :P
12:00<@Alberth>as such "complex" is not a system property, but a view of the person saying it
12:01<@Alberth>indeed, a system that you understand is never ever complex
12:01<toobored>Alberth: if I see the same thing being done with two different ways on two different files, it's complex :P
12:01<@planetmaker>Indeed depends on the person. And how long it takes them to understand a thing from scratch
12:01<@Alberth>2 already eh? :)
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12:04<@Alberth>usually, the best way to understand code is to understand the problem it solves. That normally explains why weird steps are performed in code
12:04<@Alberth>code is very good at saying what it does, but not in why :)
12:05<@planetmaker>it gets hairy if it shall solve A, but solves A' instead :P
12:06<@planetmaker>but where A' == A in 99% of the cases ;)
12:06<@planetmaker>especially the trivial test cases :P
12:06<@Alberth>the devil is always in the details :p
12:07<@Alberth>hmm, let me see what dinner I shall have tonight
12:07*planetmaker had potatoe salad. A left-over from earlier BBQ
12:09*V453000 had nothing and his future is unsure
12:09<@planetmaker>oh noes
12:15<V453000>I might eat some uranium soon because making teh material is pita major
12:15<V453000>almost there though
12:19<toobored>V453000: for which set?
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12:22<V453000>make sure you check out the previews :)
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12:29<V453000> hows t hat?
12:30<V453000>actually isnt
12:31<V453000>sufficient for uranium?
12:31<@Rubidium>uranium ore maybe ;)
12:31<V453000>k fair enough :)
12:32<V453000>I go feed it to my 1 forum follower :D
12:32<@Rubidium>the colors seem to match some uranium ores
12:33<@Alberth>you dropped the grey idea of coal?
12:33<V453000>uranium was the aim Alberth, but desaturating it was easy quick coal :D :P
12:33<@Rubidium> <- second and third minerals
12:33<V453000>yeah that is pretty much what I went from Rubidium
12:33<V453000>see, I had REAL example
12:33<V453000>-> yeti is REALISTIC
12:34<@Alberth>I find the green environment a bit too green for a mine, tbh
12:35<V453000>uranium boosts local flora
12:36<@planetmaker>mutant giant grass. Beware of its sharp teeth
12:36<V453000>in fact, no other industry has any trees around it as of now :D
12:38<@Alberth>they should install a railgun in the shaft, and launch the uranium vertically in the air :p
12:39<@Alberth>but it would defeat the need for a car probably
12:41*Alberth ponders the option of launching the car with uranium on it
12:43<V453000>car will be driven by YETI later, that will explain everything
12:44<@Rubidium>don't think it would do much harm with raw uranium ore
12:44<@planetmaker>it wouldn't
12:44<@planetmaker>as long as you wear a breathing mask
12:44<@Rubidium>apparantly it's 500 times as abundant as gold
12:44<@Rubidium>so... I'd reckon there to be natural deposits of those ores at the surface already
12:44<@Alberth>500 times almost nothing is still nothing :)
12:45<@Rubidium>true, but then you're made of effectively nothing either ;)
12:45<@planetmaker>and the breathing mask only as the harm of decay when inside the lung is much bigger
12:45<@Alberth>it's chemically not very nice stuff to have on the surface
12:46<@planetmaker>oh, doesn't matter really
12:46<V453000> (:
12:47<@planetmaker>any clothing will stop the harm from uranium alpha decay
12:48<V453000>I hereby declare I deserve dinner now
12:48<@planetmaker>+1 :P
12:48<@Alberth>sounds very right V :)
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12:49<V453000>and wip power plant :D
12:49<V453000>dinner + beer
12:50<V453000>only 3 industries entirely missing, 2 to be strongly enhanced and one to be redone completely
12:50<V453000>10 done
12:51<@Alberth>10 already? wow, so quickly
12:52<V453000>yeah, and one of them (the 3-X machinery factory) took 3 weeks alone
12:52<V453000>the rest was muuuuch quicker
12:53<V453000>easy overview :)
12:53<V453000>the clay pit will be completely different, animal farm needs animals finished (have some started), grain farm needs grain :)
12:53<@Alberth>you bring grain to let it produce grain :)
12:54<V453000>no you bring yetis and machinery :P
12:54<V453000>decaying bodies and cars turn into grain, obvioz
12:56<V453000>... they arent retards at the farm and dont output 100%, they keep some seeds for reproduction :P
12:56<V453000>they just dont officially admit it
12:58<@Alberth>smart people :)
12:58<@Alberth>I guess all inspectors suddenly vanish
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13:02<V453000>yetis eat the inspectors, industry doesnt produce without yetis -> no inspectors ever
13:03<@Alberth>hmm, it's much more complicated than anticipated :)
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13:38<toobored>V453000: very nice.
13:38<V453000>thanks (:
13:39<toobored>workers and cargo dist will be intresting :)
13:40<V453000>cargodist is utterly retarded and i dont suggest using it with yeti industries :)
13:41<toobored>hahahahaha. I pretty much like it.
13:41<toobored>I love the unpredictability
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26648 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt estonian.txt) (2014-06-15 17:45:41 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 1 changes by Eskymak
13:45<@DorpsGek>estonian - 5 changes by taavi
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14:57<toobored>mass change service interval?
14:57<toobored>(for train group etc)
14:59<frosch123>use sheduled servicing via orders, instead of intervals :)
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 16 00:00:04 2014