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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-06

---Logopened Mon Oct 06 00:00:41 2014
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01:11<Pikka>broadly speaking
01:12<andythenorth>Pikka moin
01:12<Pikka>what hap these tag?
01:13<andythenorth>just looking at narsles
01:13<andythenorth>can haz woken up
01:13<Flygon> I have the strangest temptation to draw this
01:13<Pikka>is it strange?
01:14<andythenorth>accidentally opened stable ottd
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01:14<andythenorth>WITH SMALL GUI
01:14<Flygon>Pikka: Who the devil advertises a YT channel on a Tram?
01:15<Flygon>You win this round.
01:15*Flygon does that squinty suspicious eye thing
01:15<Pikka>in that case, same again
01:24<andythenorth>Pikka: more wogans?
01:24<Pikka>which more?
01:24<andythenorth>and a heavy flatcar thing
01:24<Pikka>are you going to draw them?
01:24<andythenorth>also have you got any 737 fuselages?
01:25<andythenorth>I am thinking of drawing some, or persuading Dan to
01:25<andythenorth>NARS 2.6?
01:25<Pikka>there are no 737 factory industries, though
01:25<Pikka>you could borrow some from av8
01:26<andythenorth>might have a plan for FIRS….Pac NW
01:29<Pikka>we'll leave the door open on moar wogans in the future
01:29<Pikka>if you're not going to draw them now :D
01:30<Pikka>it's not like there aren't half a dozen functionally-identical late game goods wagons already :D
01:31<Pikka>btw, what do you think about making the three passenger wagon generations in pineapple separate vehicles?
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01:33<andythenorth>I think more explicit wagon types is fine
01:33<andythenorth>especially generational
01:34<andythenorth>‘long buy menu’ isn’t a problem, we have scroll and filter
01:34<andythenorth>‘boring tedious, economics-driven choices’ is a problem
01:34<andythenorth>any choice that involves ‘but this one has 5hp more at the cost of ¢50 / year extra’
01:34<andythenorth>is not a game
01:35*andythenorth dismounts soapbox :P
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02:01<Flygon>andythenorth: It IS if you're ba beaurocrat :P
02:01<Flygon>Because, it's necessary to pay $500 to make decisions over $0.50!
02:23<liq3>andythenorth: the problem is it's based on TTD, and back in the 90s they didn't understand profit maximizing isn't a game, but just math. ;p
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02:44<__ln__>Flygon: is there something we northeners were not told of:
02:45<Flygon>It's Robocop's cousin
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02:47<Jinassi>Have you ever sen Bonneville Salt Flats?
02:48<Jinassi>miles and miles of of a dried lake bed, it's surreal to visit them after rain(very rare).
02:49<Jinassi>You'd get the same effect if you'd take a pic of an animal there, or a car zipčping past.
02:56<andythenorth>Pikka: also I was thinking more wogans balances the excess of engines
02:57<andythenorth>but eh, I can’t find many that are worth bothering with
02:57<Pikka>do they need balancing?
02:57<Pikka>also, the wogans hang around longer than the engines
02:57<andythenorth>it’s nice to have specialised wagons for cargos
02:57<andythenorth>especially when it ducks the need to refit
02:57<andythenorth>refit is yak-shaving
02:58<Pikka>yes but
02:58<Pikka>can't have wagons for all the strange cargos in industry grfs
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02:58<Pikka>not unless you want to waste effort making wagons that most players will never see :)
02:58<andythenorth>only if they’re also being done for IH
02:59<andythenorth>which is a bit unknown
02:59<andythenorth>so 3 more engines and you’re done?
03:00<V453000>IMO it is greatly worth it to draw all cargoes
03:00<V453000>e.g. FIRS uses almost all possible cargoes of NUTS
03:00<V453000>xcept toyland ones, basicalyl all
03:00<Pikka>three more sprite sets
03:00<Pikka>they're coded, they just all look like GG1s at the moment :)
03:00<andythenorth>just ship that, see who notices?
03:01<andythenorth>I’m sure we have a GF6C
03:01<andythenorth>maybe canset?
03:07<Pikka>if dan has them lying around, though
03:07<andythenorth>hmm can’t find it
03:07<andythenorth>US Set has the EL C
03:12<Jinassi>What is the difference between openttd 1.4.3 'any' version and 'universal' ?
03:12<Jinassi>for MAC OS
03:14<@planetmaker>there is none
03:14<Jinassi>and what linux distro is most popular?
03:14<@planetmaker>but check out the difference when you select linux :)
03:17<@planetmaker>and pretty undoubtly ubuntu will be most popular
03:17<Jinassi>quite a big filesize difference
03:18<Jinassi>from Generic, to say Precise or Trusty
03:19<@planetmaker>yes. The difference is: versions built for a specific OS can rely on libraries being present. While the generic version needs to include all those library routines as well
03:20<Jinassi>Good to know. Thank you
03:21<@planetmaker>the libraries need to be of the right version, thus you really target a very specific OS. Or you compile statically and get bigger ones which run on more OS
03:29*andythenorth -> obligations
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04:21<Pikka>same time next week?
04:22<@peter1138>Hmm, well.
04:22<Pikka>I shall shrink the sprites in the next release, isn't it.
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04:27<Supercheese>but they're so purdy
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04:27<Pikka>they'll still be purdy when they're not double-size :P
04:46<@peter1138>Hey guys, how do I specify a palette for an IMGBTN? :S
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05:01<Pikka>it's a secret to everybody
05:06<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Remember I used to go "hmm" all the time? <-- no, only "heh"
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05:19<@peter1138>Was there ever a patch to show existing station coverage on the map?
05:20<Jinassi>Station coverage[6] by gehene works fine
05:20<Jinassi>disregard 6
05:20<Jinassi>though it does not shows on the map
05:21<@planetmaker>peter1138, there is such patch, yes
05:21<@planetmaker>good morning also
05:21<@peter1138>Sorry, I mean viewport.
05:22<@planetmaker>main viewport when building? Or which?
05:22<@peter1138>Main viewport but existing stations.
05:26<Jinassi>thats the patch we're using.
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>i know several people started, but they gave up when they realized that catchment area is evil...
05:26<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, shouldn't be, it's stored per-station.
05:26<@peter1138>You don't have to work out the extents every time.
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>but it doesn't work "intuitively" with non-rectangular stations
05:27<@peter1138>It just covers the whole area.
05:27<@peter1138>Unless that got changed.
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>it covers different areas depending on whether you're delivering or picking up
05:29<Jinassi>This one has 2 different colours, blue and white, blue means that station is in range to deliver cargo and white(when you have a satellite station, to extend coverage) to take cargo. Great to troubleshoot, if you have a refinery and an oil rig/well wihin range and it starts to deliver cargo to the station that should only accept it
05:32<@peter1138>We have too many features hidden away under the ctrl key.
05:32<@peter1138>SO I reckon we should hide some of them under ctrl-shift too :D
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>except that shift is fixed to "cost estimate"
05:32<@peter1138>shift is not ctrl-shift though.
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>ctrl+shift is then "estimate the ctrl+click action"
05:33<Jinassi>Shift is global hotkey?
05:33<@peter1138>shift is always (?) estimate cost
05:34<liq3>It really doesn't need to be estimate cost for actions where there is no cost.
05:34<@peter1138>Fortunately, it's expected.
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>we really don't need more hidden feature explosion
05:34<@peter1138>If there's no cost, it at least tells you whether it will probably be successful.
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>the ctrl thing everywhere is bad enough
05:35<@peter1138>Like, there's no cost to selling vehicles...
05:35<liq3>what? ctrl is a great hotkey.
05:35<liq3>I use it all the time.
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but all the ctrl features should also be accessible without ctrl
05:35<liq3>...most of them are?
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>none of the useful ones :)
05:36<liq3>the only one I can think of that isn't is mass delete/create signals.
05:36<Jinassi>I've set a global R too, to quickly use it as with autorail, but when I don't have any building menu selected, it acts as a shortcut to laying roads
05:37<Jinassi>maybe I should rephrase that :/
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05:38<Jinassi>I mean, a lot of hotkeys can be reused when in specific building menu/ making orders
05:38<Jinassi>when properly set
05:45<Jinassi>Where's the hotkey for full load any cargo hidden?
05:46<Jinassi>ofc, control :p
05:46<@peter1138>Yay, triple-screen OpenTTD!
05:46<@peter1138>Hmm, should we implement bezel compensation? :p
05:47<__ln__>we definitely should
05:47<@peter1138>Actually, probably not that hard, if you just split up the viewport.
05:48<@peter1138>Hmm, I remember in the "old days" I used to run OpenTTD in 8bpp DGA mode, because it was superfast. DGA doesn't even exist now :(
05:49<__ln__>i have a patch for dual-screen:
05:52<__ln__>well, for centering things on dual-screen
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06:08<@planetmaker>Jinassi, one can only assemble the link for a download:$VERSION/openttd-$VERSION-$OS-$ARCH.$ARCHIVEFORMAT
06:08<@planetmaker>there's no linke which will always work, I think
06:09<Jinassi>thanks, tried downloading with 'download manager' doesn't work either, manual it is
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06:38<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> What with the hole in the middle of the disc... <-- the error correction of a CD can ignore a certain size hole. something like 1.5mm
06:44<argoneus>good morning, train friends
06:46<Celestar>good day
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>"16-year-old studend makes windows 95 run on an android smart watch"
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06:49<@peter1138>Not that special.
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like he used some variant of dosbox
06:53<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, sometimes it can. My DVD player didn't have much luck with it.
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes, sometimes it's the drives that are bad...
06:54<@peter1138>Yeah, this CD drive can read it, but has other issues. It needs to be reset every now again otherwise it gets stuck in a loop reading slower & slower...
06:54<@peter1138>(And gets read errors purely from not being able to read that slow)
06:55<@peter1138>And reading at full-speed causes it to spin so fast it rattles and also gets read errors :p
07:02<Jinassi>Use for a little more and you will see it launch, together with the front plate
07:02<liq3>launch into outer space?
07:03<Jinassi>or nearest obstacle
07:03<Jinassi>Note: that might be you
07:05<Jinassi>Progress so far: dabbling while working
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>Jinassi: the question you should be asking yourself is: does that need that much fiddling for every new release?
07:07<@peter1138>Jinassi, you bastard
07:07<@peter1138>My mouse wouldn't move :(
07:08<Jinassi>afraid only thing i did, is uploaded zip files, creating mcf files now, that takes a while, seems like it's like compiling all over
07:09<@peter1138>Most people I ask have never heard to Desura, so I do wonder why you bother :p
07:10<Jinassi>Because I'd like to contribute. And get more players, hoping some of them will start to contribute too
07:11<Jinassi>It's a good crash course too lol
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>i still have no clue what desura is, or what one would use it for
07:11<Jinassi>similar to steam
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>is that like "similar to facebook"?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>as in... nobody uses it?
07:16<Jinassi>Files there are 1 year old, might aswell update it and learn something from it
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07:31<Jinassi>There's over 4 million unique visitors, there has to be a few using it :p
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07:41<Wolf01>hi hi
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08:15<Jinassi>The MCF file is our own file compression system that allows players to download only the changed files between releases, nothing more. Meaning it is very easy to keep your players up-to-date with your latest patch without having to worry about people installing incorrectly.
08:16<@planetmaker>he, works well for binary, I guess
08:16<@planetmaker>but on the other hand, one could even offer really 'full', thus including base sets
08:16<Jinassi>good call
08:17<Jinassi>this will take a while, since they manually test if it works, can't just upload and publish
08:17<liq3>Jinassi: sounds like subversion/git.
08:18<liq3>the MCF file.
08:18<Jinassi>hehe, you're right
08:19<@peter1138>More like diff, I'd say.
08:20<liq3>yeh, true.
08:22<blathijs>Except that MCF is aimed mostly at binary files, I'd expect (which diff can't really represent)
08:25<Jinassi>It not hard even, most of the stuff is just copy/paste. The hard part was already made by you. Thank you for that.
08:32<argoneus>wdnz: malinus: we going to play starcraft, wanna join?
08:32<argoneus>t-thanks irssi
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08:42<V453000>no aiur hiya
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08:43<Eddi|zuHause>is that english?
08:44<argoneus>my wife for hire
08:52<@planetmaker>wife for hire does not sound fit for a family-friendly channel :P
08:57<V453000>it is.
08:57<V453000>sharing toys is taught in pre-school already :P
08:58<@planetmaker>rather sounds like family-making :P
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09:48<Jinassi>Anyone have any game screenshots with bragging rights that I can use? :p
09:52<liq3>I could give you a game you might be able to make some from.
09:53<V453000>rights? :D
09:53<Jinassi>cool, imma spam lotsa pics...well just a few
09:54<Jinassi>V453000, any Yeti savegame, with NUTS, thats nutty
09:55<Jinassi>wanna add more pics
09:55<V453000>just take any game from coop archive
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>Jinassi: the openttd webpage has loads of screenshots
09:57<Jinassi>yep, browsing through them, lots of nice stuff
10:03<@planetmaker>oye. Someone taking care of that page nicely now :)
10:15<dih>hej hej
10:21<@peter1138>My god, he lives...
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10:34<_maddy>where do I get opengfx version which works with latest nightly build? I get a warning that I need it
10:40<@Rubidium>Jinassi: if you like looking at screenshots... find the photoshopped one ;)
10:40<Jinassi>does it have cake?
10:40<@Rubidium>no, it's not that one
10:40<_maddy>planetmaker: thx, that worked
10:40<@Rubidium>though... that screenshot was undoubtedly the tastiest of the screenshots I tasted
10:41<Jinassi>V453000 randomly found a bunch of them, from snakenest to advanced train jam :p
10:42<_maddy>what is a good road vehicle set I can use with YETI?
10:43<@planetmaker>heqs, ogfx+rv
10:43<@planetmaker>both concurrently
10:44<_maddy>ok I try that, thx
10:57<_maddy>some advanced settings removed from latest nightly? "initial city size multiplier", ratio of towns to cities?
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11:07<argoneus>imagine if this game had DLC
11:07<argoneus>like NUTS DLC, $4.99
11:15<@peter1138>Please not.
11:15<@peter1138>Doesn't NUTS have a hat?
11:15<Wolf01>you can place 1000 rails, buy more for $2.79
11:16<Wolf01>a train is broken down, repair it quickly for just $3.99
11:16<Jinassi>I'd think again, you're talking to the makers of the game
11:18<@planetmaker>tehehe :)
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11:24<Wolf01>about breakdowns, I would give in the "reduced" setting for a "like aircrafts, with chance to explode" setting
11:25<@peter1138>Reduced further.
11:26<liq3>peter1138: I think slugs have hats?
11:48<@Alberth>of course they have
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12:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26967 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-06 16:36:36 UTC)
12:36<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6127]: inconsistency between strings regarding cloning vehicles (Supercheese)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26968 trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt (2014-10-06 17:45:25 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
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14:08<@Alberth>hi hi
14:15<andythenorth>where is cat?
14:17<andythenorth>cat is BAD FEATURE
14:17<andythenorth>that thread is not getting response I hoped for
14:17<andythenorth>probably if you’re not me and pikka and V453000, you don’t have context :P
14:17<@Alberth>it's starting to become an umbrella term
14:18<andythenorth>I think the thread is close to concluding, “well it’s all just opinion isn’t it?"
14:18<andythenorth>and “mmm, okay"
14:18<@Alberth>I just fake context :p
14:18<andythenorth>you usually need a WebTestLayer to do that
14:18<andythenorth>but that is out of context too
14:19<@Alberth>isn't that what it is about, in the end? feature goodness is in the eye of the beholder?
14:19<V453000>my conclusion is that many grf authors started regarding functionality
14:19<V453000>like you and Pikka
14:19<V453000>which is major progress
14:19*Alberth agrees
14:20<Sylf>now the disagreement is on what is considered functional :P
14:20<@Alberth>it helps in making authors aware of the fact there is choice
14:21*andythenorth is a 90% satisfied Apple user, so clearly thinks there are better and worse ways to design things
14:21<andythenorth>that’s probably less common in places where hardware and software are commodity and configurable and interchangeable
14:22*peter1138 has no Apple products to be satisfied with.
14:22<andythenorth>I think one is in a parcel somewhere
14:22*Alberth is very satisfied with having no Apple products
14:26<_maddy>V453000: playing YETI first time, really liking it
14:27<V453000>:) all I will say is, it will be a lot better :)
14:27<V453000>but thanks, nice to hear
14:28<andythenorth>“it’s all just preference innit” is a useless heuristic for design :)
14:32<@Alberth>judging by the number of FIRS users, you seem to understand what to do :p
14:32<@peter1138>How do I download an old AI for a savegame?
14:33<@peter1138>Find missing content only seems to be concerned with NewGRFs.
14:34<andythenorth>FIRS has hardly any users afaict from Bananas :)
14:35<frosch123>peter1138: yup, that's missing
14:35<frosch123>no md5sum or unique id is stored in the savegame
14:36<@peter1138>And bananas only lets me download the latest version.
14:37<@peter1138>Hmm, actually the bananas version is older than the version required o_O
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26969 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2014-10-06 18:45:51 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26869): black palette didn't work very well with unmasked 32bpp sprites
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15:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26970 trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp (2014-10-06 19:15:00 UTC)
15:15<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26969): non-sse animated blitter crashed occasionally
15:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26971 /trunk/src (widget.cpp widget_type.h) (2014-10-06 19:16:29 UTC)
15:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix: widget_data was sometimes uint16 and sometimes uint32; make it always be uint32
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15:25<andythenorth>cat is hungry
15:26<Taede>tell cat to get his own dinner
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15:36<andythenorth>is cat drawing trams?
15:38<Taede>did you give it something to draw with?
15:39<andythenorth>mouse blood
15:43<Taede>then it might give you some red and rusty-colored trams
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16:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r26972 /branches/1.4 (8 files in 2 dirs) (2014-10-06 20:10:07 UTC)
16:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
16:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Compilation of strgen on various platforms like Solaris (r26850)
16:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Better display of refit information for articulated vehicles [FS#6113] (r26849, r26848)
16:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Do not assign a next hop when returning cargo [FS#6110] (r26847)
16:10<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
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16:11<andythenorth>nice fix on articulated refit info
16:11<andythenorth>missed that
16:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r26973 /branches/1.4 (6 files in 2 dirs) (2014-10-06 20:14:44 UTC)
16:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
16:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Image widgets stored 32bit SpriteID in uint16 (r26971)
16:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Compilation on HAIKU (r26922)
16:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Crash when enabling 'Full animation' if multiplayer chat text is on screen [FS#6096] (r26919)
16:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
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16:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26974 /branches/1.4 (4 files in 3 dirs) (2014-10-06 20:18:11 UTC)
16:18<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Backport from trunk:
16:18<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Owner of road depot road types were not properly changed upon bankruptcy [FS#6126] (r26955)
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>did you mean *10^-98777?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> where is cat? <-- in whatever chair you're trying to sit in next
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17:13<andythenorth>ho Pikka
17:14<andythenorth>you awake I asleep
17:14<Pikka>sounds plausible
17:14<andythenorth>anyone would think we are on opposite sides of the planet
17:14<Pikka>seen dan?
17:14<andythenorth>he’s all worky worky I imagine
17:15<Pikka>oh well, it's not like I don't have worky worky of my own to do.
17:16<andythenorth>moi aussi
17:16<andythenorth>also chores
17:17*andythenorth -> dishwasher
17:35<Pikka>doesn't it
17:36*Pikka -> BAD FEATURES thread
17:36<argoneus>every time I come here
17:36<argoneus>I see BAD FEATURES in caps
17:36<argoneus>or without the S
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17:38<andythenorth>Pikka: BAD FEATURES thread is a washout
17:38<andythenorth>dunno what I expected
17:38<andythenorth>but still surprised :)
17:39<Pikka>eh :) I just ignore the idiots and ramble on about whatever I want to ramble on about. but what else is new?
17:40<andythenorth>sorry, wasn’t paying attention :)
17:40<andythenorth>also bedtimes I think
17:40<andythenorth>have fun drawing eletricals
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22:43<Supercheese>Hmm, apparently the palette strings cannot be translated ("Default" & "Legacy")
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23:26<Flygon>You know you're having the wrong mindset
23:26<Flygon>When you're thinking a method of getting over 256 colours in OpenTTD
23:26<Flygon>Is to use raster scanline effects
23:26<Flygon>By punching in new palette data to the CRAM mid-frame
23:27<Supercheese>already have nice blitters
23:27<Flygon>Like I said, I'm in the wrong mindset :P
23:27<Flygon>I've been around the Mega Drive for too long x.x
---Logclosed Tue Oct 07 00:00:42 2014