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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-16

---Logopened Sun Nov 16 00:00:59 2014
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03:15<andythenorth>ha ha
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03:26<@Alberth>hi hi
03:45<@planetmaker>moin moin
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08:08<supermop>listening to broomhall music
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09:44<andythenorth>it’s oh so quiet
09:58<andythenorth>you're all alone
09:58<andythenorth>and so peaceful until
10:25<andythenorth>a comedian :)
10:33-!-horazont [~unknown@2a01:4f8:d16:1305::3] has joined #openttd
10:34<horazont>trying to get auto-separation for timetable’d trams to work
10:34<horazont>is there a wiki page for that? all I found was and
10:35<FLHerne>horazont: Ctrl-clicking 'set start date' sets the start dates of all vehicles sharing that timetable to e evenly-spaced around the duration
10:36<horazont>yes, but that only has odd effects, I assume I’m doing something wrong
10:36<FLHerne>So if you have three vehicles sharing the TT and it takes 60 days to complete, it sets start dates at 20-day intervals
10:36<horazont>my workflow is this right now:
10:36<horazont>1. make a tram, put orders, autofill timetable
10:36<horazont>2. send tram home, clone several trams with shared orders
10:37<horazont>3. ctrl-click set start date, set it to let the TT start a few days in the future
10:37<horazont>4. start all trams
10:37<horazont>result is that they are *all* running late immediately
10:37<horazont>shouldn’t they be running early?
10:38<horazont>hmm, no, the dates are indeed in the past
10:39<@Alberth>does it matter? Their due dates should be different, if you give them some slack, they'll get the their right point after some time
10:39<horazont>hm, just that trams can’t change order easily
10:40<horazont>ha, so the trick is to release them in order!
10:40<@Alberth>and passing each other may be a problem too
10:40<FLHerne>horazont: Having at least one large station, with plenty of stops and waiting time, is usually a good idea with trams
10:40<FLHerne>horazont: So that they can correct their order and/or wait time without blocking each other
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11:12<andythenorth>if anybody would like to timetable my ships let me know :P
11:17<horazont>I don’t believe in ships. but before today, I’d also have said that I don’t belive in passenger transport, and now my whole empire is based on passenger transport. CargoDist really makes it more fun
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11:25<FLHerne>horazont: CargoDist autotransferring, combined with autorefit, makes ships a lot more fun too :-)
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11:51<horazont>are there any considerable advantages of pre-signals over path-signals? afaict, since path signals were introduced, there’s no reason to use anything else, is there?
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12:00<FLHerne>horazont: Many servers prefer you to use plain block signals rather than path for plain-line sections
12:01<FLHerne>horazont: Because there's no difference in behaviour, and path-signals need a bit more processing
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>which is plain useless
12:01<V453000>that requirement is only because these servers want to make good players, the cpu is just an excuse or wrong reason
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>because no evidence was ever produced to support this processing claim
12:01<V453000>path signals will simply never lead you to proper solution
12:02<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure I saw some numbers somewhere. Not very significant ones though
12:03<V453000>technical differences really dont matter FLHerne :) spamming 100 road vehicles or ships (which is very easy to do) will cause more harm
12:03<FLHerne>Also, there's that annoying thing where path signals 'lag' and stop trains briefly even when a clear path exists
12:04<FLHerne>'Some servers insist on it' is a useful fact though, even if the reasons are dubious
12:04<Wolf01>as we are talking about signals: on load balancers (those with a bridge/tunnel), is it better to use path signals or a bunch of pre-signals?
12:04<V453000>pre-signals, they choose better
12:05<V453000>path signals can often consider some paths not good enough etc
12:05<V453000>since firstred of exit signal gives like 10 000 penalty, that makes the choice a lot easier
12:05<horazont>I’ll go for some sandboxing to mess with signals :)
12:09<Wolf01>I must rethink my cargo tracks, I can't use them for both point to point and CDist, the whole network screws up
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, going at cargodist with a point-to-point mindset will almost certainly fail
12:09<V453000>or expand your network :)
12:10<V453000> why would that fail Eddi
12:10<V453000>it is the ultimate solution, no junctions, just stations
12:10<Wolf01>longer routes
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that is already a different mindset
12:10<V453000>sure but it takes care of itself easily
12:10<V453000>no messing around, all of the distribution sorted out
12:11<V453000>isnt about mindset, it just shows the broken nature of cargodist if it motivates do do such a thing
12:11<V453000>logically, it does suggest it because stations solve all of the problems it brings
12:12<Wolf01>the problem is to deliver a lot of supplies to boost the production for the pont to point cargos, they need a ring shaped network
12:13<Wolf01>my current network don't allow to reach 2 pickup stations without first reaching the unload station/supplies station
12:13<Wolf01>and the main intersection is about at the center of the map
12:13<horazont>I was thinking that cargodist maybe only makes sense for symmetric goods
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>possible solution: stick a supplies wagon to all trains
12:14<horazont>it is certainly loooots of fun with passengers
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>then you can have the dropoff station take care of the distribution
12:14<Wolf01>yes, that is an idea, I already tried it with YETI
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>other possible solution: use trucks and planes for the supplies, completely decoupled from the train network
12:15<Wolf01>all the primary industry trains had some wagons for workers
12:16<Wolf01>planes are crashy :P
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>you can turn those off
12:17<andythenorth>with freight cargos, point-to-point is the most valid cdist strategy
12:19<FLHerne>I think having CDist 'cancel out' bidirectional demand for freightish stuff might make it behave better?
12:19<andythenorth>it behaves exactly as expected right now
12:19<andythenorth>I wouldn’t change it
12:19<FLHerne>Some bidirectional coal/ore traffic for blending occurs in RL, but moving stuff in both directions across the entire map is a bit odd
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: well, tweak the demand functions if you dare...
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>"Boeing has reported $26.4 billion in pre-tax profits to its shareholders, while claiming a total of $105 million in refunds from the IRS, an effective tax rate of -0.4 percent."
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12:43<andythenorth>FLHerne: how are you getting bidirectional demand?
12:45<FLHerne>andythenorth: I mean if you have a secondary at each end of the map, and primaries spread out a bit, you have cargo going both ways up the middle
12:45<FLHerne>Because some of the stuff from each end goes all the way down the map to the other
12:45<FLHerne>Maybe I should turn up effect of distance a bit more
12:46<andythenorth>you’re doing that not cdist :)
12:46<andythenorth>cargo has no destinations
12:49<andythenorth>for freight, you only want to create directed graphs
12:50<andythenorth>and you want one secondary per graph typically
12:50<andythenorth>and don’t bridge the graphs
12:51<andythenorth>you want to create what I think some network theorists call cave worlds
13:00<@Alberth>non-cyclic directed graph will do :p
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13:10<Eddi|zuHause>sure, you can make a cargodist graph directed by using "no loading" orders, but that kinda destroys any system that builds on an autorefit main line with feeders
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13:11<Eddi|zuHause>and that brings you back to "trains drive empty on the way back"
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13:27<andythenorth>but that’s just how cdist works
13:28<andythenorth>you get odd results if you try to back load same cargos
13:28<andythenorth>refit to different cargo is fine
13:29<andythenorth>but that’s a different graph
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13:59<Eddi|zuHause>exactly. hence the suggestion to change the way cargodist works.
14:08<FLHerne>Also, some level of autorefit control beyond 'this specific cargo' and 'absolutely any cargo'
14:08<FLHerne>And some way to actually force a complete refit - even 'autorefit to A' will load cargo B if the vehicles come in carrying B
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14:10<andythenorth>Railroad Tycoon you specified a range of acceptable cargos for refit
14:10<andythenorth>FLHerne: you should be able to trick that by repeating the station, not sure
14:10<andythenorth>in fact, I think what you just described is a bug
14:10<andythenorth>which I think is fixed
14:11<andythenorth>if there is a station refit order to A, then it should be honoured as long as B is unloaded
14:11<FLHerne>andythenorth: The latter - you can't, without using two different stations
14:11<FLHerne>Oh, that's interesting
14:11<andythenorth>use unload
14:11<FLHerne>I should try recent trunk
14:11<andythenorth>if you can reproduce the behaviour in recent trunk, it’s a bug imo
14:12<andythenorth>I had a bunch of minor issues with refits and transfers, I reported them all to fonso, they all got fixed
14:12<andythenorth>the last game I played (few weeks ago), everything working perfectly
14:32<andythenorth>literally everything :P
14:32<andythenorth>I didn’t need to adjust consists, which is the main remaining irritation in ottd :P
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15:15<Eddi|zuHause>saying "lmao" without context kinda defeats the point...
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16:29<Wolf01>changed a little the junctions and some tracks, now I deliver less supplies but to more stations in a single trip, they seem to be more happy about it
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16:40<FUZxxl>Considering I have a y-shaped fanout that I want to load-balance on (i.e. it doesn't matter what track the trains choose).
16:40<FUZxxl>How do I place signals so that trains wait in front of the y until one of the sides is free?
16:41<FUZxxl>i.e. they should not try to enter one of the arms until the block behind it is free.
16:41<FUZxxl>Asides from using pre-signals, is there a way to do this with path-signals?
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16:43<+glx>the basic rule for path signals is to place them only where it's safe for a train to wait
16:44<+glx>so one before the y and the next one far enough so a train can wait on a branch without blocking the crossing
16:44<FUZxxl>interesting approach.
16:44<FUZxxl>Let me try that.
16:45<FUZxxl>I'll report back when I can tell you if it works.
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16:46<andythenorth>still don’t understand the loans thing
16:46<andythenorth>borrow money
16:46<andythenorth>build pax
16:46<andythenorth>await riches
16:46<+glx>andythenorth: built coal is better :)
16:46<andythenorth>not in FIRS
16:46<andythenorth>dunno why
16:47<FUZxxl>I have recently started playing games where I restrict myself to passenger transportation (cargodist enabled). Lots of fun and requires a completely different railway design.
16:54*andythenorth finds metros help a lot
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 17 00:00:01 2014