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#openttd IRC Logs for 2015-04-19

---Logopened Sun Apr 19 00:00:31 2015
---Daychanged Sun Apr 19 2015
00:00<kamnet|AFK>No, it'snot a single, neat package.
00:01<kamnet|AFK>You have to grab the heightmap data from one source, river and water locations from another source, GPS coordinates from a third source, and then use scripts to coordinate all the data together.
00:02<kamnet|AFK>installing and setting up all the software isn't simple either
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00:42*Supercheese should really work on adding that dock to SNO
00:46<Flygon>kamnet: Fun
00:46<Flygon>At least there'll eventually be a guide
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00:56<kamnet|AFK>Flygon, here's a tutorial for generating the heightmap:
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00:58<kamnet|AFK>And here's a guide for trying to recreate rivers:
01:05<kamnet|AFK>Somebody was working on an overall patch back in 2008, but they left the community, website isn't functional anymore, but you might be able to e-mail them and inquire about it.
01:07<kamnet|AFK>Ah an here's a patch and an old build that includes most of the above:
01:28<Flygon>Sorry for the delay
01:28<Flygon>I didn't know there was a rivers tut O_o
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02:17<kamnet|AFK>Morning andythenorth!
02:24<kamnet|AFK>morning Alberth
02:25<@Alberth>remote typing, eh?
02:42<andythenorth>remote coffee?
02:42<andythenorth>probably not
02:43*andythenorth will have to get out of bed
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02:49<@Alberth>RLP (remote liquid protocol) is not yet operational :(
02:49<supermop_>start every day with an aeropress over your mouth when you wake
02:51<andythenorth>my wife used to bring me in tea in bed most days
02:52<andythenorth>now we have beautiful children instead
02:57<kamnet|AFK>Congratulations, you now have minions. Train them. Train them early enough and they'll love it, think it's a fun game!
02:59<andythenorth>31 / 66 FIRS industries converted
02:59<andythenorth>nearly 50% eh
03:03<supermop_>converted to all coffee economy?
03:11<andythenorth>no coffee, no converting
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03:16<kamnet|AFK>We will make it strong.... faster.... it is... THE SIX MILLION DOLLAR FIRS.
03:22*andythenorth twiddles with farm cluster spacing
03:22<Supercheese>they now appear at mapgen if you want
03:23<andythenorth>they do?
03:23<andythenorth>what witchcraft is that?
03:24<andythenorth>oh, that happened :)
03:24<Supercheese>indeed it did, but scant few grfs make use of it
03:24<andythenorth>is there a good objects grf yet? o_O
03:24<Supercheese>I like MariCo, it's nice
03:24<andythenorth>too much
03:24<Supercheese>allergic to fruit though
03:24<andythenorth>I used the CHIPS objects grf sometimes
03:25<andythenorth>to build ‘stations’ on corner slopes for harbours
03:25<Supercheese>wait there even was CHIPS objects...?
03:26<andythenorth>someone made it
03:26<andythenorth>GPL innit
03:27<Supercheese>I do not recall seeing such
03:29<Supercheese>must have missed that
03:29<Supercheese>no banananaz
03:29<Supercheese>therefore terribly obscure
03:32<Supercheese>quite nice
03:33<andythenorth>solves the harbours problem
03:33<andythenorth>shame that station tiles can’t build on corner slopes
03:33<andythenorth>also docks
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03:36<andythenorth>that eh?
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03:38<kamnet|AFK>Wow, I don't know how I managed to miss that one either. Nifty.
03:40<kamnet|AFK>Oh wait I remember it now
03:40<kamnet|AFK>Dunno why I didn't download it
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04:02<supermop_>why didnt FLherne put that on bananas
04:02<andythenorth>because reasons
04:02<andythenorth>like forgetting
04:02*andythenorth guesses
04:03<supermop_>cold in here
04:04<supermop_>i should wear wetsuit in house to get more use out of it
04:04<supermop_>wear it to surf in summer, to stay warm in cold brick terrace in winter
04:05<supermop_>forgot how hard it is to get into this thing
04:07<@Alberth>you really don't use it enough :p
04:08<supermop_>now i have to pee
04:09<supermop_>invariable effect of putting on a garment that takes 90 seconds to take off
04:11<andythenorth>don’t you just piss in the suit?
04:11<andythenorth>I thought that was how they worked?
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04:14<nanoha-chan>hey is it possible that you can get an dedicated openttd server to peroidically say things in the chat?
04:15<supermop_>andythenorth: i think that works better in ocean than in one's house
04:16<andythenorth>people piss in their clothes in my house all the time
04:16<andythenorth>fairly standard
04:17<supermop_>was one of the reasons i decided to buy my own instead of renting them
04:18<supermop_>is it a bad idea to build computers into custom fixture rather than just having a cabinet with a computer sitting in it?
04:19<@Alberth>depends on how often you want to change something in it?
04:21<@Alberth>nanoha-chan: should be possible, I think it's called admin port, where you can attach openttd to a chat, have logging running along, and other admin-ish things you may want to do
04:21<andythenorth>mine is built into a custom fixture
04:21<andythenorth>it’s about 1cm thick, and has the keyboard on top
04:21<andythenorth>and a charging port
04:21<andythenorth>and a special hinged lid containing the screen
04:22<@Alberth>nanoha-chan: is one, but there are more
04:22<supermop_>its for 4-8 workstations that will be public facing
04:22<@Alberth>have a look at the "" page
04:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: 50% !
04:23<supermop_>i feel they will overheat in a cabinet, a special perforated metal portion of the fixture could have a locking lid and house the motherboars
04:23<supermop_>oh man mother boars would be way better than computers
04:25<supermop_>could just have the standoffs for the board fabricated as part of the box
04:25<@Alberth>nanoha-chan: oh, conveniently grouped
04:26<supermop_>alberth maybe change graphics cards once a year, and replace psu whenever it dies
04:26<@Alberth>graphics cards have that short life span? :o
04:27<supermop_>in case they need to be upgraded
04:27<supermop_>idk how long psu will last
04:27<@Alberth>k, I buy a new comnputer every 6-8 years, and never upgrade anything :)
04:27<supermop_>but given 8 stations i assume the first will fail soon and the last will never fail
04:28<kamnet|AFK>It looks nice and it's a pain in the ass to work on and eventually replace.
04:28<supermop_>well hopefully nothing fails
04:29<supermop_>but if there were little doors that could regularly be opened for dust to be cleaned out that would help
04:29<supermop_>just need it some public users do not have access to the stuff
04:30<kamnet|AFK>Supercheese, I actually fixed those docks a little, they might line up better than what Quast just pointed out
04:31<supermop_>ok taking off wetsuit, too warm
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04:34<greogrycu>Is anyone aware of a project/mod/script that allows trains to place signals for you? I'm thinking of a situation where as a train travells along my mainline, it places a signal every 3 squares
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04:39<andythenorth>computers are disposable
04:39<andythenorth>buy a new one every year or so, sell the old one
04:40<kamnet|AFK>If I could afford them, I would.
04:42<kamnet|AFK>I built my desktop in 2008, using a case I got free after rebate, and leftover RAM and monitor from my previous PC, and I think i recycled the video card too
04:42<andythenorth>mine would sell used for £1000-£1200, new one would be £1500-1£1600
04:42<andythenorth>otoh andythenorth spends > 12 hours a day with this computer, of which > 10 hours are usually work
04:43<andythenorth>so £0.22 an our or so to use it for work
04:43<andythenorth>hour *
04:44<kamnet|AFK>I keep meaning to take a bunch of old dumb terminals I bought at auction a decade ago to a recycler to see how much the gold and silver on the boards are worth
04:44<@Alberth>greogrycu: control-drag a signal?
04:44<andythenorth>in the UK, it would be ‘pay somebody to take them away’ usually
04:44<greogrycu>I am aware of that
04:45<greogrycu>But I then need to manually follow the mainline to the end
04:45<greogrycu>Follow turns etc.
04:45<greogrycu>I mean, an actual train, or soemthing, that you can send out, and it will plot signals along the line for you
04:45<@Alberth>nah, just 1 tile in the right direction is sufficient
04:45<greogrycu>So, how do I do it around corners?
04:46<andythenorth>hmm is ~764 lines. It’s becoming a bit of a god module
04:46<andythenorth>but everything in one file, convenient for ‘search'
04:47*andythenorth wonders if Industry and IndustryTile should be split
04:47<andythenorth>but eh
04:47<supermop_>it does corners automatically greogrycu
04:48<kamnet|AFK>Well in the 80s when these PCs were built, gold and silver was cheap they used loads of it. Now those recyclers will pay you well when gold and silver is selling for thousands of dollars an ounce.
04:49<supermop_>should be safe to make door to a shed 2 heightlevels tall? no one is making trains taller than about 1.5 heightlevels?
04:50<greogrycu>Ahh sweet, the indicator is a little misleading
04:50<andythenorth>we should define everything in minecraft units
04:50<@Alberth>greogrycu: ?
04:50<greogrycu>Yeah, that's good
04:51<greogrycu>Thanks for the tip
04:51<@Alberth>please update the wiki
04:52<@Alberth>it's clearly not good enough :)
04:52<greogrycu>How do I do a really long section? Is there some way to scroll while dragging?
04:53<@Alberth>what part about "1 tile in the right direction is sufficient" was unclear?
04:54<@Alberth>@calc 36/66
04:54<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 0.545454545455
04:54<andythenorth>@calc 0.2 * 66
04:54<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 13.2
04:54<@Alberth>dorpsgek isn't sure whether it's a 4 or a 5 :)
04:54<andythenorth>yeah the last 13 will likely take me a few months :P
04:54<andythenorth>there are some where I have opened the file
04:55<andythenorth>then closed it again quickly
04:55<Rubidium>Alberth: apparantly it is, since it ended it with a 5... but the real question is... does that number end with a 4 or a 5 ;)
04:55<andythenorth>what is the biggest number?
04:55<andythenorth>I keep being asked
04:56<@Alberth>the OP doesn't know?
04:56<andythenorth>he’s 5
04:56<andythenorth>I could set him counting
04:57<@Alberth>but surely he has an idea what a big number is?
04:57<supermop_>how about a 5m tall door
04:57<supermop_>that should be plenty for anybody?
04:58<@Alberth>ie if he says 19, 19 it is :)
04:58<@Alberth>supermop_: and put the knob at 2.5m ?
04:59<supermop_>well if the train can reach the know it's fine
04:59<Rubidium>andythenorth: think about your biggest number, then write that biggest number followed by that amount of up arrows and then the biggest number again (recursively) ;)
05:00<andythenorth>I tried explaining in terms of infinity
05:00<andythenorth>but we broke maths
05:00<andythenorth>ha ha power towers
05:02<andythenorth>due to reasons, players can no longer build dairy farms wherever they want
05:02<Rubidium>and it exploded pretty quickly. 2 up-arrow up-arrow 5 is about 2*10^19728
05:13<greogrycu>Alberth: No, you were clear, sorry I misread
05:14<@Alberth>wiki is somewhat misleading in dragging the entire length
05:25<supermop_>good to see that metabolist delusion is alive and well:
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05:51<andythenorth>some farms are now harder for players to build
05:51<andythenorth>collateral damage
05:53*andythenorth wonders
05:54<andythenorth>how far would you transport cargos like grain etc for processing?
05:54<andythenorth>sometimes the processors are a *long* way from the sources
05:57<@Alberth>wherever the grain mill is?
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for a while, grahams number held the world record for the largest constructively used number
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06:16*andythenorth considers enforcing max distance from source to processor
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that is totally stupid
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't want to travel that far, play smaller maps
06:25<andythenorth>eh yes
06:25<andythenorth>my thinking is, why build a sugarcane mill miles from sugarcane farms?
06:25<andythenorth>it looks weird to have a map like that
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>you want to force your own play style upon others, no matter what?
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06:35<V453000>interesting idea andy :D
06:35<V453000>probably bad on all fronts though
06:36<V453000>transporting small distances already is more efficient in terms of amount of cargo delivered
06:36<V453000>systematically less interesting, but more efficient
06:54<andythenorth>I think it’s likely bad
06:54<kamnet|AFK>There shoud probably be a minimum distance, but not a maximum
06:54<andythenorth>but it could be done as, say, 50% of map size
06:56<kamnet|AFK>If you wanted to enforce it, then do so on mapgen. If I decide later I want ones further out, I should be able to do so
06:56<andythenorth>that’s a given
06:56<andythenorth>most restrictions in FIRS can be ignored by player
06:57<andythenorth>with the exception of farms refusing snow / desert
06:57<kamnet|AFK>It'll be interesting to see how that works in my scenario, then
06:58<kamnet|AFK>Building scenario with height level of 60. I'll be using OpenGFX+ Landscape, setting summer snow level to 40 and then winter at 0.
06:59<kamnet|AFK>but I'll be setting FIRS farms between 0 and 40 before I enable the winter level of snow
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07:00<supermop_>max distance is ok
07:00<supermop_>you can still transport to a further mill
07:01<supermop_>but if i am an industrialist who wants to build a mill, i'd probably at least try to locate it close to the sugar
07:03<andythenorth>actually, isn’t the “don’t force play style” argument bogus? o_O
07:03<andythenorth>FIRS already has opinions on that, by enforcing clustering
07:06<supermop_>having a mill 100 tiles away does not force a player to use that instead of a different mill 200 tiles away
07:06<V453000>yeti also forces you to have a fluent network :)
07:07*andythenorth ignores max distance for now
07:07<andythenorth>although some industries were already using it, it turns out
07:07<andythenorth>Iron Works, for some reason
07:07<andythenorth>and Fishing Harbours, because ships are slow
07:07<supermop_>brick sheds will now have 4 arches on the side rather than 3
07:08<supermop_>kind of makes it look like a church though
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07:37<supermop_>where do you guys paste images just to show something impromtu?
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07:39<V453000>dropbox :)
07:39<V453000>andy uses devzone files often
07:39<V453000>hi frog
07:40<frosch123>andy uses devzone files
07:40<frosch123>hola V :)
07:52<frosch123>any idea about fs#6283?
07:52<frosch123>apparently there are multiple ways to break tram lines
07:52<frosch123>because they are auto-extended to complete tiles
07:53<frosch123>is it wise to fix these cases? or does it just result in annoyance?
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07:55<supermop_>what the hell is snaggy
07:55<supermop_>ill just use that
07:55<supermop_>3 arches?
07:55<supermop_>needs more relief on the front wall
07:56<supermop_>what is wrong with tram lines now?
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08:00<@Alberth>frosch123: it's not really different from a road with a bend in it, is it?
08:00<frosch123>road vehicles do not care
08:01<frosch123>trams can only reverse on single-track-bit tiles
08:01<frosch123>otherwise they are stuck
08:01<@Alberth>you cannot add track on them
08:02<frosch123>this weirdness only exists for trams
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08:02<@Alberth>I mean, just forbid laying track at such tiles
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08:04<@Alberth>although from a safety point of view, it would be nice if the tram would not become fully stuck
08:05<@Alberth>perhaps by pressing 'reverse' in its vehicle window?
08:05<supermop_>i think that may actually work
08:05<frosch123>i believe that is already the case
08:06<supermop_>you can get trams to reverse in places where they shouldn't be able to by hitting the reverse button
08:07<frosch123>so, all competitor construction should behave on single-tram tiles like with bends
08:07<frosch123>basicaly you cannot place anything on them
08:07<frosch123>no rail tracks, no road stops
08:07<frosch123>only plain road
08:08<frosch123>but nothing that requires a full tram tile
08:08<frosch123>otoh. for your own tram tiles we can allow auto-completion in all cases, just to avoid annoynig messages
08:08<frosch123>you have to fix the tram separately then
08:09<andythenorth>eh road-tram-rail crossings are a headache
08:10*andythenorth had a patch for those :P
08:10<@Alberth>we don't auto-fix bendy company-owned roads either :)
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08:11<frosch123>yes, but rv do not even enter those tiles
08:11<frosch123>so, it really does not matter
08:12<frosch123>single road bits are either removed or auto-completed
08:13*andythenorth -> shops
08:13*andythenorth wonders if the FIRS fairy will finish it while I’m gone
08:13<andythenorth>probably not :|
08:16<@Alberth>auto-fixing road would simplify track-laying over own road
08:16<@Alberth>although I never do that myself :)
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09:51*andythenorth is getting bored now
10:05<@Alberth>new BB goal: Convert a FIRS industry
10:05<@Alberth>you can draw a random start letter out of a hat to pick the industry
10:13<andythenorth>I could probably write a code generator to convert them?
11:00<@Alberth>you already have one, he's called andy
11:16<V453000>what are you even doing anyway
11:16<V453000>replacing a template with template?
11:16<V453000>python stuff?
11:17<andythenorth>killing about 5000 lines of code
11:17<andythenorth>some of which turns out to be buggy
11:17<andythenorth>cutting the number of industry templates from 66 (1 per industry) to about 9
11:18<andythenorth>also templating the animation
11:22<andythenorth>also any industry can be compiled individually
11:23<andythenorth>takes about 17s from clean repo
11:23<andythenorth>instead of >2 minutes
11:23<V453000>me does not mind having considerably higher compile times :P
11:24*andythenorth has no patience
11:25<andythenorth>also old templates don’t support economies fully, some annoying limitations
11:26<andythenorth>also running out of industry IDs, new system will fix that
11:28<V453000>the problems with large projects, system :D
11:28<andythenorth>also every industry has 10s of switches currently
11:28<andythenorth>most of which are identical
11:29<andythenorth>I’ll switch them to shared switches
11:29<andythenorth>should be faster compile
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11:29<andythenorth>strange thing is, pushing the limits makes a lot of the code actually simpler
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11:41<andythenorth>41/66 :P
11:46<@Alberth>yeah, the trick is usually to make a sufficiently generic case where everything fits in, in a neat and simple way
11:47<@Alberth>unfortunately, it takes time to recognize you have too much special edge case stuff :)
11:48<andythenorth>about 4 years
11:49<andythenorth>it’s much nicer to make it common later not earlier
11:49<andythenorth>in some ways
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11:59<tacsipacsi>Hi! Who can rename me from "tacsipacsi" to "Tacsipacsi"? It can be done with the Renameuser extension[1] (it says that it bundled with MediaWiki, probably just turned off?) or directly in database.
12:03<@Alberth>please send a request to
12:04<@Alberth>@calc 42 / 66
12:04<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 0.636363636364
12:04<@Alberth>almost 2/3
12:05<andythenorth>the rest are…hard
12:05<andythenorth>done all the easy ones
12:08<andythenorth>I’ll just cheat a bit
12:09<andythenorth>and such
12:09<andythenorth>about 4 of them will be solved by new sprites, instead of reusing base set sprites
12:09<andythenorth>conveniently Dan drew the sprites ages ago
12:10<@Alberth>baseset sprites always looked a bit out of place, probably because I associate them with the default industry set
12:13<andythenorth>also they are jarringly ogfx, if you use ogfx
12:13<andythenorth>or zbase
12:13<@Alberth>doesn't help either
12:13<@Alberth>zbase is even more horribly different :)
12:15<V453000>I agree, a newgrf should replace everything of the sort :P
12:16*andythenorth ventures back to the safe land of original base set
12:16<andythenorth>a brief tour of alternatives
12:17<andythenorth>it is _hard_ to make a full base set imho
12:18<@Alberth>you don't want to make it a goal
12:18<@Alberth>make nice sprites with newgrfs
12:19<@Alberth>and one day find you have pretty much everything
12:19<V453000>it is hard to make a full base set. :)
12:19<V453000>and yes, though I personally prefer the approach of making a no-functionality newGRF, turning it to a base set eventually
12:19<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> almost 2/3 <-- and now for the other 2/3...
12:20<@Alberth>I wonder how much there is left to do when at 95% :p
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12:51<andythenorth>the remaining 24 need about 14 separate templates
12:52<andythenorth>the previous 42 use 3 templates
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27240 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2015-04-19 19:45:18 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 31 changes by Stabilitronas
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15:12<andythenorth>Squid compile is super-fast :o
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16:23<Fadi>Is this a good place to ask a question related to your bug tracker that uses flyspray
16:29<Fadi>Like is there a way to echo the flyspray feed to an irc channel? If so do you guys do that and is that code like open to everyone or is it off limits
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16:33<Eddi|zuHause>any of your random stock bots that can read rss?
16:34<Rubidium>not out of the box, we don't do it, but it is possible
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16:47<Fadi>alright thanks
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17:47<Supercheese>Man, every time, I always forget that I run a patched version and my OTTD is not the same OTTD that every user plays -_-
17:47<Supercheese>so the new docks are fubar
17:53<Supercheese>blah, how to fix...
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18:22<kamnet>Did you try my new sprites yet Supercheese?
18:22<Supercheese>Also need to do that
18:22<kamnet>I made them before the reported issue, if they don't fix it I'll try again
18:23<kamnet>at least the alignment issue. as for the tile issue, why not just make one land and one water?
18:25<Supercheese>Yeah I need to fix that first
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18:38<Supercheese>ok, fixed
18:39<Supercheese>now for alignment
18:39<Supercheese>I think the issue may be illusory however
18:53<Supercheese>It was not
18:55<Supercheese>new version should hopefully fix things
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19:11<kamnet>usually is
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19:36<kamnet>Spiffy airports, PIkka!
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 20 00:00:41 2015