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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-01-14

---Logopened Sat Jan 14 00:00:01 2017
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05:21<__ln__>@foresee Bjarni
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05:41<__ln__>as a follow-up to last night's discussion, can we agree to use imperial units only on this channel, as the channel is English only
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05:47<@Alberth>/me adds many stones per square foot
05:48<Wolf01>Pfff, let's measure in cubits
05:54<V453000>voxels soon ?
05:54<Wolf01>Not that kind of "bits"
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06:36<frosch123>MonkeyDrone: the limit is not 512 megabyte, but 512 megapixels. that is equal to a limit of 2 gigabyte. the limit is 2 gigabyte, because openttd did not drop 32bit platforms, and the code has no 64bit specific code either
06:41<frosch123>Alberth: openttd does not yet fall back to openttd.grf gui sprites. but i actually wanted to add just that this weekend :)
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06:43*frosch123 wonders about the target audience of the sam topic
06:44<andythenorth>I think I found it
06:44<frosch123>i think andy had to fill in the url field in the source documentation
06:51<andythenorth>ach, processing ships with PIL is slow
06:52<andythenorth>lots of pixel scanning
06:55<@Alberth>what other gui sprite can be missing then?
06:56<frosch123>the newest gui sprite is the unused pure-black recolour sprite for more heightlevels
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06:56<frosch123>if you think "unused sprite" is a pretty stupid reason to print a message "update your baseset"...
06:57<frosch123>then yes, that is pretty much still the state of mhl after 2 years
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07:04*andythenorth puts mhl on the naughty step
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07:14<@Alberth>oh, don't know, it's a fair assumption that defined sprites are also used, imho
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>why is that sprite not used?
07:30<frosch123>because there is a speical blitter mode to draw pure black
07:31<frosch123>it has always been present for 32bpp blitter, since the normal recolouring does not work for 32bpp obviously
07:31<frosch123>but i think 8bpp blitters also gained them
08:01<MonkeyDrone>frosch123: ah thanks for the info, i do get this when i run the game and it tells me this. any ideas why?
08:01<frosch123>that means you are running a 32bpp version of openttd, on a computer with very little memory
08:02<MonkeyDrone>i've plenty of ram available
08:02<MonkeyDrone>so abase is limiting the performance of ottd?
08:02<frosch123>if you think you have enough physical memory, then try downloading the 64bit version of openttd
08:03<MonkeyDrone>hmmm, it doens't have abase loaded up, it's using openGFX
08:03<frosch123>apparently you have the 32bit version
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08:03<frosch123>or you are running windows me or something
08:03<MonkeyDrone>yes, i am runnign the 32bit , let me check 64bit
08:04<MonkeyDrone>ok no notifications ont he 64bit.
08:04<MonkeyDrone>i'm trying to figure out why the game starts to lag on Server2 of OTTD.
08:05<@Alberth>server wouldn't need 32bit graphics
08:06<MonkeyDrone>server doens't have 32bpp on it
08:06<MonkeyDrone>could it be that the server is running a 32bit version of the server?
08:08<MonkeyDrone>anyway i can check that client-side?
08:09<MonkeyDrone>the client i'm using for them is a 64bit , i don't get any warnings on startup, but the game fps is pretty horrible dragging around while zoomed out on a decent level
08:12<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27729 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2017-01-14 14:12:49 +0100 )
08:13<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Do not count static NewGRF when checking for the maximum number of NewGRFs in a game.
08:13<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Remove LAST_GRF_SLOT and MAX_NEWGRFS. Now NETWORK_MAX_GRF_COUNT is the only constant to specify the maximum number of non-static NewGRF.
08:13<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Increase the number of file slots, effectively increasing the maximum number of static NewGRF and baseset GRFs.
08:13<frosch123>MonkeyDrone: 32/64bit really only makes a difference for graphics
08:13<MonkeyDrone>roger that frosch123, so any opinions on why the game lags then?
08:13<MonkeyDrone>could the custom grfs be causing the performance to drop?
08:14<frosch123>well, does your computer run at 100% cpu for openttd?
08:14<MonkeyDrone>nope, 30%
08:14<@Alberth>multiplied by how many cores?
08:14<frosch123>if your computer is too slow to keep up with the server, it will skip updating the screen in an attempt to catch up
08:14<MonkeyDrone>hmmm, latency would be an issue then here?
08:14<frosch123>if it has to skip frames continuously, it will appear as lag
08:15<MonkeyDrone>let me check the ping to the servers, one minute
08:15<MonkeyDrone>cause some people did say it runs well for them while it doesn't for me
08:15<frosch123>yes, that is the usual case when your computer is too slow, but the other ones are not yet
08:15<@Alberth>you have 4 cores?
08:16<MonkeyDrone>160 ping, so its pretty normal for me to Europe from here. Fiber internet. and Core i5 6th gen.
08:16<MonkeyDrone>just got this laptop last month
08:16<@Alberth>newer laptop != faster
08:17<frosch123>just like for trains :)
08:17<MonkeyDrone>aye, let me get the benchmark on the cpu :P
08:17<andythenorth>there are too many other factors
08:17<@Alberth>how many cores do you have?
08:17<andythenorth>OpenTTD gets slower for the last few laptops I bought
08:17<MonkeyDrone>Intel Core i5-6200U @ 2.30GHz
08:18<@Alberth>30% is normally measured over all cores, so at 30% you have 1 running 100% (ie OpenTTD) and 3 idle
08:18<@Alberth>for 4 cores
08:18<MonkeyDrone>hmmm, good point Alberth. Let me see if I can get per core usage threads
08:19<andythenorth>there might be a CPU meter per core
08:19<MonkeyDrone>none of them is at 100%
08:19<andythenorth>I have never seen OpenTTD peg my CPU to 100%
08:19<frosch123>anyone knows whether ottd supports some platform with 8.3 filenames?
08:19<@Alberth>dos? / win9
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08:20<__ln__>win9 isn't a platform with 8.3 names.
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08:20<frosch123>language files also seem to use longer filenames
08:20<@Alberth>__ln__: underlying dos is
08:20<MonkeyDrone>well i know it's not my hardware, 160ms ping latency affects it then that could be the only thing affecting me?
08:20<frosch123>so, i guess using a longer name for the baseset is fine
08:20<__ln__>Alberth: that's irrelevant from an application's perspective.
08:21<andythenorth>MonkeyDrone: it might be that your laptop is too new
08:21<MonkeyDrone>lol andy
08:21<andythenorth>I am serious
08:21<@Alberth>good point
08:21<MonkeyDrone>oh, how would that affect this?
08:21<@Alberth>video bandwidth is decreasing
08:21<andythenorth>nobody knows for sure
08:22<andythenorth>what GPU do you have?
08:22<MonkeyDrone>well i'm on windows 10 but you know what
08:22<MonkeyDrone>i'll install ubuntu and test to see if it has anything to do with windows
08:23<MonkeyDrone>are there any other settings i need to be aware of that affects performance?
08:23<@Alberth>openttd runs the video display at the cpu, and sends the pictures to the video, the latter becomes slower, as the common pattern is that the gpu does computing, and talking to video
08:23<@Alberth>disable animation is one
08:24<andythenorth>try enabling / disabling animation
08:24<andythenorth>you might get massive artefacts (black patches)
08:24<andythenorth>which may or may not disappear
08:24<andythenorth>ffwd doesn’t, if I turn on animation, but I have different OS, vendor, CPU, dunno about GPU
08:24<MonkeyDrone>well the cpu would be na issue if it was running at 100%
08:24<MonkeyDrone>but its more near 60% on a thread
08:26<MonkeyDrone>disabling full detail and animation help a bit but still the lag is pretty bad.
08:26<MonkeyDrone>i'll run a live version of Ubuntu and check the game out
08:26<andythenorth>ha, with full animation on, openttd does peg my CPU to 100%
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08:29<MonkeyDrone>ok, i found a live usb for ubuntu 16.04. i'll be back soon
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08:43<supermop>andy has made a forum topic i see
08:44<supermop>full animation works fine on my surface and worked fine on my 6 year old i7 before
08:44<supermop>maybe its a mac thing?
08:44<andythenorth>it’s a mac thing
08:44<andythenorth>there are reports from other projects that use things like X11
08:45<andythenorth>the mac perfomance is 5-15x worse than linux on equivalent hardware
08:45<andythenorth>maybe Apple crippled a legacy API
08:45<supermop>I used to play on a mbp and then mba around 2012-2014
08:45<supermop>cant recall if I had it turned on then
08:54<@Alberth>ever made the water stop moving back and forth?
08:55<MonkeyDrone>ok, i tested it on Ubuntu 16.04 x64. Ran way smoother, still some minor lag when fully zoomed out but difference of day and night
08:55<MonkeyDrone>damn you windows =O
08:55<@Alberth>also, the number of grf filename copies in a running program is amazing :)
08:57<__ln__>is the mac version using OpenGL for drawing nowadays or not?
09:01<MonkeyDrone>well ottd doesn't want to use the gfx at all even though i told it to, guess it makes no calls to the gpu at all.
09:02<MonkeyDrone>any performance increases from 1.6.0 to 1.6.1?
09:03<supermop>andythenorth: not begging for coders yet
09:04<andythenorth>__ln__: not afaik
09:05<__ln__>that would probably be the way to make performance issues go away.
09:07<supermop>playing a late steam game of IH for once here
09:07<MonkeyDrone>oh well, guess not much can be done with what the situation is now.
09:07<MonkeyDrone>the server is running 1.6.0 build. Time will tell how things work out with 1.6.1
09:08<andythenorth>simutrans has same issues on OS X
09:09<supermop>hmm get 5 more crates on a flatbed than a supplies car, but it doesn't look as cool
09:10<MonkeyDrone>thanks for all the help everyone. Will keep you all posted whenever 1.6.1 server goes into action in a few weeks.
09:13<andythenorth>yair, I think I have the same issue prissi reports for simutrans
09:13<andythenorth>I’ve seen that post before, just couldn’t remember which $someone had explained it
09:44<frosch123> <- split openttd.grf into openttd.grf and orig_extra.grf
09:44<frosch123>the former providing all the action5 sprites which outdated basesets may lack
09:44<frosch123>the latter providing sprites which only make sense with original graphics
09:45<frosch123>(the latter being essentially optional)
09:46<frosch123>i need some cool name for the grfs though
09:46<frosch123>"baseset extra graphics" and "core extra graphics" or something?
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09:57<@Alberth>you can explicitly forbid parallelism between targets? :o
09:58<frosch123>yes, with "|" you can add order-only prerequisited
09:58<@Alberth>wow :)
09:58<frosch123>they do not force a rebuild of the target, but if both are built they enforce a sequence
10:03<@Alberth>seems fine to me
10:04<@Alberth>"original additions" ?
10:04<@Alberth>original refinements :)
10:05<@Alberth>original enhancements
10:05<frosch123>"OpenTTD's default extra graphics" and "Original baseset extra graphics" ?
10:06<@Alberth>not sure what it means
10:06<frosch123>it provides default graphics in case an out-dated baseset does not provide them
10:07<@Alberth>sort of fall-back
10:07<frosch123>"OpenTTD's fallback graphics" ?
10:07<@Alberth>OpenTTD's additional graphics
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10:07<@Alberth>both are fine imho
10:08<@Alberth>I can live with "default extra" too
10:09<@Alberth>while trying to make accessing a tarfile more clean, it seems we get a pair of names from the tar-file list down to grfconfig and grfile
10:09<@Alberth>I am wondering whether to make a class for that, with std::string, and std::sharedptr to it
10:10<@Alberth>which would remove all the local copying of filenames that happens now
10:10<frosch123>std::string sounds good :)
10:10<frosch123>no idea whether the compile farm supports shared_ptr
10:11<frosch123>probably it doesn't :/
10:11<@Alberth>hmm, it was added in c++11 I guess
10:11<@Alberth>bit too new
10:11<frosch123>but the glibc implementation of std::string does share data
10:12<frosch123>hmm, "glibc" is probably the wrong name, but i mean the std::string that comes with g++
10:12<@Alberth>isn't glibc the gnome lib?
10:12<frosch123>Alberth: what are the two parts of the pair?
10:13<frosch123>absolute path and short name?
10:13<@Alberth>tarfilename (optional), and the filename (relative to search path)
10:13<frosch123>gnu, gimp, gnome :) all are "g"
10:13<@Alberth>too many g :p
10:13<frosch123>ah, path to tar, and path inside tar?
10:14<@Alberth>the tarfileentry thingie, mostly
10:14<@Alberth>although that has more fields
10:14<frosch123>yes, sounds good for a separate struct :)
10:14<frosch123>no std::pair, since "first" and "second" tells nothing :)
10:15<@Alberth>indeed, it will get stored and such, it's not temporary data
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10:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27730 /trunk (17 files in 6 dirs) (2017-01-14 16:48:19 +0100 )
10:48<@DorpsGek>-Change: Split openttd.grf into openttd.grf and orig_extra.grf
10:48<@DorpsGek> openttd.grf is now always loaded and provides all extra graphics in case the (possibly outdated) baseset does not.
10:48<@DorpsGek> orig_extra.grf contains graphics specific to the original baseset only.
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11:06<supermop>hmm eur seems cheap right now
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12:54<frosch123> <- slightly less annoying, right?
12:54<frosch123>how to word the message, so that people do not run to flyspray, if there is no update to their unmaintained baseset?
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>why not skip the message altogether?
12:55<frosch123> <- the translator message did not spawn annoyances yet
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ok..
12:55<frosch123>oh, the translator message only shows in nightly, beta and rc
12:55<frosch123>but not in releases
12:56<frosch123>maybe that's an option here too
12:57<frosch123>is it "updates for the baseset" or "updates to the baseset"?
13:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27731 /trunk (8 files in 2 dirs) (2017-01-14 19:00:02 +0100 )
13:00<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r27730): Missed some sprites which also belong into orig_extra.grf
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, no idea
13:04<frosch123>__ln__: your chance to be useful
13:05<frosch123> <- anyway, replacing the old popup with a new less annyoing message, which only shows in non-releases
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13:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27732 /trunk/src (68 files in 6 dirs) (2017-01-14 19:30:26 +0100 )
13:30<@DorpsGek>-Change: Turn the message about 'missing baseset sprites' from a popup into a static message that only shows in non-release versions, just like the 'missing translations' message.
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13:44<@Alberth>frosch123: doesn't the diff in the paste above line 74 need a "default: return;" ?
13:45<frosch123>most of our widget switches lack a default case
13:45<frosch123>no idea how valid that is :)
13:45<@Alberth>most of our switches there don't have code below it either :)
13:49<@Alberth>frosch123: oh, nvm, you initialized the str to avoid that problem, sorry
13:50<frosch123>oh, you wrote "return"... i read "break" :)
13:50<frosch123>anyway, i set str = 0 at the front
13:50<@Alberth>yeah, I realized that after typing the message, you may have fixed it that way :)
13:50<@Alberth>and indeed :)
14:19<frosch123>Wolf01: andythenorth: i synced nrt with trunk, which means that it can now be played with other basesets, and it will use the new gui sprites from openttd.grf
14:20<Wolf01>Nice :)
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15:06<supermop>I am excited to see my convert tram icon in game
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16:11<drac_boy>sorry to ask this kind of question here but any of you know of any particular online book seller (new books pls) for toward european rail titles especially deutsch ones?
16:12<drac_boy>(I had initially thought about going with Platform 5 from uk some time ago but have been rather put off by their "add 30% to subtotal for shipping" which is just expensive compared to anyone else so..meh!)
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 15 00:00:02 2017