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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-18

---Logopened Sat Feb 18 00:00:50 2017
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02:47<snadge>this channel is yuge
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02:51<snadge>im about to dive into the code, and am looking for documnetation.. but how does the music engine work? is that a built in soft synth?
02:51<snadge>im kinda hoping to override the output midi device
02:53<snadge>LOL figured it out.. just used coolsoft midi mapper to change the default output device
02:53<snadge>so now its the original score being played via a roland sc-880 ;)
02:54<snadge>into sennheiser studio headphones
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03:12<Eddi|zuHause>snadge: my first attempt would be the os/xxx_m.cpp files
03:12<Eddi|zuHause>possibly they moved into some subdirectories in the past 10 years...
03:14<Eddi|zuHause>snadge: anyway, there should be an "extmidi" driver, which you can use to override via the command line
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03:58*andythenorth needs to draw “Vehicle Bodies” for CHIPS
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04:11<andythenorth>hi Alberth
04:18<andythenorth>cement cargo: bulk piles?
04:18<andythenorth>or bags?
04:18<andythenorth>bags won’t look like bags at TTD scale, they’ll look like blobs
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04:25<@Alberth>platforms don't have enough room for proper piles, imho
04:25<@Alberth>I prefer stacks, gives more variation
04:27<@Alberth>got a bit tired of not having a unique name in the tar/zipfile :p
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make whole stacks of bags
04:38<@Alberth>:o steel finishing plant, how nice
04:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: probably I should
04:40<andythenorth>I need sacks for cargos like wool also
04:40<andythenorth>and same sprites would work
04:40<andythenorth>recolouring the bulk cargo would be easier :)
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04:46<@Alberth>you're clustering the quarries?
04:47<andythenorth>I am +/-0 to clustering
04:47<andythenorth>but players seem to like it :|
04:47<@Alberth>looks nice
04:47<@Alberth>it avoids evenly distribution across the entire map, somewhat
04:48<@Alberth>instead you get a few points with heaps of sand and stones
04:48<@Alberth>moooaaar trainz needed :)
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04:58<andythenorth>ha, bulk cement doesn’t show up on concrete CHIPS tiles :)
05:01<andythenorth>maybe I should split tyres from vehicle parts
05:01<andythenorth>then they could be shown as cargo….
05:05<@Alberth>what does "Not producing" mean, as it just made 266t
05:07<@Alberth> perhaps you're missing a "must supply all input cargoes" boolean parameter, for "hard cargo" players :p
05:08<@Alberth>or produce more if the balance is more even :p
05:08<andythenorth>sadly, the strings are all broken :)
05:08<andythenorth>fixing them is both a code problem and a design problem :)
05:09<andythenorth>that parameter might be a valid one
05:09<andythenorth>“Require all input cargos: never | some industries only | always”
05:10<andythenorth>for the industry text, ‘delivered within last three months’ is too long
05:11<andythenorth>✓ would probably be sufficient :P
05:11<@Alberth>recently delivered
05:11<andythenorth>or two lists: Delivered / Required
05:12<andythenorth>the ‘three months’ is redundant detail? o_O
05:12<@Alberth>delivered last quarter
05:13<andythenorth>‘delivered’ ?
05:13*andythenorth thinks strip it right down
05:13<@Alberth>would work too
05:14<@Alberth>ha, also have a parameter "process in equal quantities"
05:15<@Alberth>and produce more, to tease people into playing it :p
05:15*andythenorth wonders if the ratios are just over-thinking it
05:16<andythenorth>but 3 into 8 doesn’t go neatly :)
05:16<@Alberth>you need something to steer the player in delivering the "right" cargoes
05:18<@Alberth>balancing input would open a new way of playing
05:18<@Alberth>although you then also need somewhat stock-piling-ish
05:18<@Alberth>but less rigid than ecs
05:19<andythenorth>I think the old display of the ratios guided ‘right’ cargos?
05:19<andythenorth>not sure the new text is better
05:19<@Alberth>for me it did, generally
05:20<andythenorth>I only started the new text to reduce translation maintenance
05:20<@Alberth>you could do "needed", "recommended", and "accepted" or so
05:20<andythenorth>hmm, if I revert to old, it will be a big manual merge :D
05:21<@Alberth>this is why branches can be useful :p
05:21<andythenorth>isn’t it :)
05:22<@Alberth>the displayed string is just wrong thus?
05:23<andythenorth>the ‘not producing’ is wrong
05:23<andythenorth>the ‘required’ / ‘delivered’ are accurate
05:24<@Alberth>seems that way indeed
05:25<andythenorth>‘Current efficient: zero’ also wrong
05:28<@Alberth> <-- you could add a pipeline, every now and then :p
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05:33<andythenorth>use the PIPE grf :)
05:33<andythenorth>PIPE should be redone as NRT, and Wolf01 should finish the ‘no crossings’ patch that we said wasn’t needed :)
05:34<andythenorth>‘no crossings’ would be useful for a PIPE hack on NRT
05:34<Wolf01>The patch *is* finished
05:35<andythenorth>Alberth: you’re using the Dutch translation in FIRS?
05:35<Wolf01>I had the idea to add a "no bridges" flag too (to disable $roadtype bridges, not bridges over $roadtype") some time ago, and I think it would come handy to supermop
05:36<Wolf01>*bridges AND tunnels, that is
05:38<@Alberth>I do, currently
05:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: oh, sorry, no I don't, I use dutch town names only
05:38<andythenorth>ok, well
05:39<andythenorth>is stripped to just ‘required'
05:39<andythenorth>should be savegame safe
05:39<@Alberth>you're tempting me to break the newgrf-update rule eh? :)
05:40<andythenorth>just don’t post your bug report in the forum when it breaks :P
05:40<@Alberth>haha :)
05:40<andythenorth>I probably get about 99% success rate on newgrf updates
05:40<andythenorth>and 1 in 100 will crash openttd, or unrecoverably destroy my game
05:40<@Alberth>yeah, but you know exactly what you changed :)
05:41<@Alberth>that helps :)
05:41<andythenorth>so this industry window text remains pretty unsatisfactory
05:41<andythenorth>it repeats the required cargos, and is generally hard to understand
05:41<@Alberth>needs some work
05:46<andythenorth>I’ve wanted the ‘needed’ / ‘delivered’ text for years
05:47<andythenorth>to see quickly whether cargos are getting delivered frequently
05:47<andythenorth>but it’s confusing unless you really understand FIRS
05:47<andythenorth>does ‘delivered’ mean you can’t deliver more?
05:47<andythenorth>does the industry have ‘enough’?
05:47<andythenorth>maybe it has closed the stockpile? etc
05:51*andythenorth wondering if we have any glyphs that could be made red / green
05:51<@Alberth>supply secured
05:51<andythenorth>it’s just a guide, not an instruction
05:51<andythenorth>it’s like the red/green in the vehicle list for profit
05:52<andythenorth>the ‘required: [cargos]’ is also repeating the ‘cargo waiting to be processed'
05:52<@Alberth>red/green is horrible for people that are colour blind
05:52<andythenorth>I know :|
05:52<andythenorth>ideal would be two different glyphs
05:53<andythenorth>presumably I could extend openttd base font?
05:53<@Alberth>I wonder how script pages do that
05:54<@Alberth>euhm, *story pages
05:55<andythenorth>ah there’s a tick mark here
05:55<andythenorth>but not in nml
05:57<@Alberth>neither in translation
05:58*andythenorth patches nml to test
05:59<@Alberth>I got those from openttd source, and not from nml, iirc
05:59<@Alberth>but some were dropped, as they were not useful, iirc
05:59<andythenorth>maybe newgrf docs are outdated
05:59<@Alberth>frosch might know
06:01<@Alberth>src/table/strgen_tables.h has a checkmark, but no cross, it seems
06:01<andythenorth>newgrf docs say “X mark"
06:02<andythenorth>on offset AD
06:02<@Alberth>euhm, it's just below the check mark :p
06:02<andythenorth>I didn’t see it until the 3rd time I looked :P
06:02<@Alberth>I should try reading :p
06:04<@Alberth>just keep the text, write 2 lines of text about in the do-not-readme, and you're done :)
06:05<andythenorth>it has become a project now :)
06:19<andythenorth>Alberth: bit ugly, but…more sense? ^
06:24<@Alberth>would work, what does "Required:" mean
06:24<andythenorth>I am trying to simplify further
06:24*andythenorth waits for compile
06:26<@Alberth>"(ok)" would be a textual alternative
06:27<@Alberth>"Recently delivered:" instead of "Required:" ?
06:27<@Alberth>or "Delivered in last three months:"
06:27<@Alberth>do you have optional cargoes?
06:28<andythenorth>too much detail imho
06:29<@Alberth>those do not count in gung-ho etc, I guess
06:31<@Alberth>:O pretty
06:31<@Alberth>I wonder if that really needs a list of 3 lines, but fair enough
06:32<andythenorth>well I can’t control the ‘cargo waiting to be processed’ text :)
06:32<andythenorth>which is pointless here
06:34<@Alberth>.. within three moinths: Iron Ore ✔ Coke ✔ Stone (lacking)"
06:34<andythenorth>I’ll patch nml and see what the x looks like
06:34<@Alberth>yeah, I know about the stupid text
06:34<@Alberth>✗ <- like that :p
06:36<andythenorth>stupid text is fixable :)
06:36<andythenorth>just one of those too-many things that it’s hoped frosch will do :)
06:37<@Alberth>yeah, but so far the text is still winning :p
06:37<andythenorth>I am going to start patching more things :P
06:37<andythenorth>but not while so many newgrfs are in unreleasable state
06:39<andythenorth>with 2 cargos (and this industry has some extra info text)
06:44<@Alberth>"Produces stuff." isn't terribly relevant
06:45<@Alberth>add it to the documentation :)
06:45<andythenorth>x is large font for some reason :P
06:46<@Alberth>{small}{cross} :p
06:46<@Alberth>may not exist though
06:46<@Alberth>this may also be the reason why checkmark and cross were dropped
06:46<andythenorth>can’t use {small} in this window
06:47<andythenorth>there’s no way to reset back to normal
06:47<@Alberth>silly openttd
06:47<andythenorth>was it frosch who wanted to replace all string handling with some text framework? o_O
06:47<andythenorth>someone did
06:47<@Alberth>I would not be surprised
06:48<@Alberth>zuu perhaps, he tried to make clickable town names and so on
06:48<@Alberth>maybe that even works
06:48<andythenorth>it does in some places
06:58<andythenorth>Alberth: you think I should drop the ‘extra info’ text that some industries have?
07:03<andythenorth>it’s only used at 13 out of 82 industries
07:03<andythenorth>answer is probably self-evident :)
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07:25<@Alberth>it's nice side-information, perhaps modellers like it
07:26<@Alberth>I typically just read the the accepted cargoes and often the ratios too
07:26<andythenorth>I’ve deleted it, but kept the strings locally in case I reuse them in docs
07:26<@Alberth>for more experienced players, they can probably draw the cargo flow from their head
07:27<andythenorth>even I can’t do that :)
07:27<andythenorth>I have to use the cargo flow window a lot
07:27<@Alberth>yeah, the text is definitely useful, I think even the picture links you paste here would be fun to add
07:28<@Alberth>you play all economies, and your focus is not playing :p
07:29<@Alberth>if you play the one favourite economy every day, you know what to connect within a month :)
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07:38*andythenorth has deleted all the extra text
07:38<andythenorth>better now
07:41<@Alberth>less cluttered :)
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08:03<andythenorth>Alberth: if you’re still playing…
08:04<andythenorth>bundles won’t build, because I patched nml
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08:08<Wolf01><andythenorth> x is large font for some reason :P <- to catch more attention
08:10*andythenorth trying to figure out where the glyphs come from :P
08:10<andythenorth>scaling or drawing an x can’t be hard
08:10<andythenorth>moar patches
08:12<Wolf01> tow trucks... tow trucks everywhere
08:12<andythenorth>that thread is weird though
08:13<Wolf01>I have a nasty problem with eb forum, I can't change pages on topics, it happen for you too?
08:14<andythenorth>seems to be webkit
08:15<Wolf01>I'm on firefox...
08:15<andythenorth>I tried digging through the JS calls to find the problem
08:15<andythenorth>but eh, I am not good at JS debugging
08:15<Wolf01>I was, but now I forgot everything about js :P
08:15<andythenorth>they claim it’s contention on the DB
08:15<andythenorth>but I would be surprised by that
08:16<Wolf01>I change page then hit F5, it works
08:16<andythenorth>same here
08:16<Wolf01>So I thing it's just shitty js
08:16<andythenorth>it’s something in the fancy scroll-fade crap they applied
08:16<andythenorth>_could_ be DB locks failing to clear, because they might have to lock if you’re editing a reply
08:16<andythenorth>but that sounds like piss-poor design to me
08:17<Wolf01>Also on edge is broken beyond help
08:17<andythenorth>all my favourite forums except tt-forums have gone crap recently
08:17<andythenorth>all upgraded
08:17<andythenorth>and worse
08:17<andythenorth>and it’s not just because I’m 39
08:17<andythenorth>and fear change
08:17<andythenorth>PHP-BB is just more reliable and has less shit
08:18<Wolf01>People want only fancy things with glitter, then make loads of bug reports
08:19<Wolf01>I still have a SMF 1.x
08:19<Wolf01>Which works like a charm, after a fix for the config file which got emptied instead of a cache file
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08:58<supermop>who wants some cobblestone stams?
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08:58<andythenorth>you do? o_O
08:58<supermop>also current sv goal: Metal Valley
08:59<supermop>pretty metal
08:59<supermop>grf is 'done'
08:59<supermop>well done enough I might set the version to 0.1.0 instead of just 0
09:04<andythenorth>ship it then
09:04<andythenorth>got a repo?
09:12<supermop>repo is a folder on my google drive
09:15<supermop>hmm this computer has a new hog than nrt hog on it
09:15<andythenorth>you need the NRT branch?
09:16<supermop>no I have it here, it just doesn't show up to select for a new game
09:16<supermop>need to delete 1.2.0
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09:19<frosch123>"What has happened to the airport in this game, i love this game but why you have changed the style of the airport.Plz tell me how to fix it because i want that international airport not this muddy airport. What to do." <- anyone interested in moving to first level support?
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: there is a hidden setting to show all grf versions, not just the newest
09:20<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: I vaugely recalled that but was faster to close game and delete grf than look it up
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>just open the console and type "list_settings grf"?
09:22<andythenorth>frosch123: I’ll trade you that for supporting FIRS? o_O
09:22<andythenorth>also where is that?
09:23<frosch123>andythenorth: email
09:23<andythenorth>oic :)
09:23*andythenorth never checks email, so I would be no good there
09:27<supermop>having trouble getting a map that makes the ideal quaint port for a screenshot
09:28<@Alberth>you can sculpture the land yourself :)
09:29<andythenorth>supermop you know about ‘newgame’ in console?
09:30<supermop>i no almost nothing about the console
09:30<supermop>including how to spell know
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09:35<frosch123>andythenorth: Alberth: we did not add any of the glyphs to nml/eints, because they do not scale with the font selection. there were opinions to remove them completely, like we removed the setxy stuff in the past
09:37<andythenorth>I could ship this
09:37<andythenorth>I like the ticks, but I had to remove them to placate coop Jenkins
09:38<andythenorth>the ticks are neater
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09:40<andythenorth>cargo label for Vehicle Bodies?
09:41<andythenorth>Vehicle Parts is VPTS
09:41<andythenorth>or VBOD?
09:41<frosch123>VBOD is better
09:41<frosch123>the plural S is silly :)
09:41<andythenorth>also that will now break my savegame :)
09:45*andythenorth has had 3-4 days of OpenTTD coding time :)
09:45<andythenorth>it’s fun, when you get a run at it
09:46<andythenorth>usually much interruptions
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09:51<Wolf01>I think I have some spare time today to work on that fantastic function for checking the availability of road/railtype
09:58<Wolf01>First: frosch123 you asked for a function to be used in gui, commands, and scripts, should the scope be passed as parameter or I must figure it out?
10:00<frosch123>what is the scope needed for?
10:00<Wolf01>Could be used to decide whether check on the company or not
10:00<frosch123>i would pass the company as parameter
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10:01<frosch123>and not use _current_company, _local_company or other globals
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10:06<andythenorth>and now the great FIRS Extreme rework begins :P
10:06<andythenorth>by accident
10:07*andythenorth regrets this in advance
10:09<frosch123>make a browser-based puzzle game
10:09<frosch123>build an economy with <N cargos and <M industries
10:10<Wolf01>IsCompanyBuildableVehicleType() <- there are any not buildable vehicle types?
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>sounds a bit like that "design an airport" minigame from ages ago, for the newairports that never happened
10:11<frosch123>Wolf01: disaster and effect
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: factory smoke, steam puffs, submarine, ufo, ...
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10:22<Wolf01>Mmmh, one thing I didn't consider, is it possible to disable a roadtype for a climate?
10:23<Wolf01>There's a check in the dropdown build code "if (!HasBit(e->info.climates, _settings_game.game_creation.landscape)) continue;" but I don't know how effective it could be
10:24<Wolf01>I copied it straight from rail_gui
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10:24<frosch123>that checks vehicle availability
10:25<frosch123>"e" is a engine
10:25<Wolf01>Yep, but it's for ROAD and TRAM, not for HAUL ELRD etc
10:27<frosch123>that is just a line afterwards
10:27<frosch123>first check basetype, then check subtype
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10:32<Eddi|zuHause>so wtf is up with my ISP lately...
10:33<frosch123>they have trouble providing the cpu power required for filtering and logging
10:33<frosch123>disable https and it may improve
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: NFO-wise you can check climate in an action6/7/9/D and skip the definiton of the roadtype. that's probably an if-block in NML
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: for the game that would mean the roadtype simply doesn't exist
10:35<Wolf01>That's even better
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10:36<Wolf01>I would like to move the loops outside the dropdown building code
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10:39<Wolf01>Where's better to place them? vechicle.cpp or road.cpp/rail.cpp?
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10:39<frosch123>VehicleExistsForRoadType/RailType or something
10:40<frosch123>possibly with a "now/somewhen" parameter
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause>is there a vehicle_cmd.cpp?
10:40<Wolf01>Yes, there is
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>possibly groundvehicle or something
10:41<frosch123>yes, but there is no equivalent function for ships or aircraft, and even road/rail would take different parameters
10:41<frosch123>and the other road/rail functions are also in road/rail.cpp or roadveh/train.cpp
10:48<andythenorth>nicely played
10:49<supermop>ok lets see some steam tram screenshots in this month's steam themed screenshot of the month topic
10:52<andythenorth>supermop: I should merge docklands into CHIPS :)
10:52<frosch123>Wolf01: only_existing=true does not consider vehicle introduction and date-based roadtype introduction
10:52<supermop>worst practices andy
10:53<supermop>soon there will be only one andy.grf
10:53<supermop>with everything included
10:53<frosch123>i think only_existing=true requires a companyid, since vehicle availability is based on companies or so
10:53<andythenorth>seems to me the types you’ve added are a facet of stations :)
10:53<andythenorth>stick em in the station grf :)
10:54*andythenorth knows it’s wrong, but eh
10:54<frosch123>"use ground sprite from neighbour tiles" :)
10:56<supermop>next need to make log flumes as roadtype
10:56<frosch123>anyway, finally some dirt road :)
10:57<andythenorth>I should make heavy haul vehicles compatible with it
10:57<andythenorth>but they sink in
10:57<supermop>frosch123: I'm waiting to see if andrew350 is going to split arrs into asphalt/dirt/cobble
10:57<frosch123>add a refit option for bigger tires
10:57<supermop>if not I might do it myself
10:58<supermop>next we need heqs and egrvts forks
10:58<supermop>and trolley busses in ogfx+rvs
10:58<andythenorth>RV revival
10:59<supermop>more rvs = more people making road types
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11:01<andythenorth>what’s left for NRT? o_O
11:01<frosch123>script api :)
11:02<frosch123>and what wolf is doing
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11:15*andythenorth looks at nogo for railtypes
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11:25<Wolf01><frosch123> i think only_existing=true requires a companyid, since vehicle availability is based on companies or so <- something like this? HasBit(c->avail_roadtypes[rtid.basetype], rtid.subtype)
11:26<Wolf01>But it's not really for the single vehicle, it is for the entire roadsubtype
11:27<Wolf01>So at least one vehicle should exist for that, or should exist in future
11:35<frosch123>i thought that is what "only_existing" was about
11:41<Wolf01>I think you mean the second part, that one which does the actual job of filling the dropdown list
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11:42<Wolf01>I think I must add both loops in the function and then loop the result again in the places where is needed
11:43<Wolf01>Loop or check for set bit
11:57<andythenorth>^ could make that weird pseudo-primary
11:57<andythenorth>as Haber process makes fertiliser from air
11:58<andythenorth>it could produce x / month without any input
12:06<Wolf01> <- frosch123
12:09<frosch123>i still do not understand what "only_existing" is supposed to do
12:10<frosch123>you can replace the second loop with a single "&", right?
12:10<frosch123>available_roadsubtypes = known_roadtype & company->avail_roadtypes[rtid.basetype]
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12:11<andythenorth>why does FIRS have min_cargo_distr set to 5? o_O
12:11<frosch123>but at the same time i Company::avail_roadtypes is already a subset of known_roadtype
12:11*andythenorth has no recollection
12:11<frosch123>so you could just return Company::avail_roadtypes directly
12:11<frosch123>andythenorth: it's the default value?
12:11<Wolf01>But it doesn't have future ones
12:11<Wolf01>For SE
12:13<andythenorth>frosch123: is that definitely the default? Can’t figure out how to search for it in ottd src
12:13<andythenorth>I can stop declaring it 72 times if it’s default :P
12:17<frosch123> <- Wolf01: i think those are the 3 modes that make sense
12:18<frosch123>andythenorth: there is no "default", it's just "what most do"
12:18<frosch123>i think forests have like 24 or so
12:20<andythenorth>seems FIRS has mostly 5, sometimes 1 or 2
12:20<andythenorth>dunno why
12:20<andythenorth>probably some ancient reason
12:22<frosch123> <- see column 14
12:22<frosch123>sometimes players get confused by high values
12:22<frosch123>like the 30 of the forest
12:22<andythenorth>oh yes
12:22<frosch123>but in general i am unsure why that property exists in the first place :)
12:22<andythenorth>the FIRS values might be an artefact of the automated conversion from nfo
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12:51<andythenorth>hi Snail :)
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12:55<andythenorth>found a reproducible bug in adjacent station detection :)
12:57<Snail>hey andythenorth
12:57<Snail>looks like I could compile OTTD with Sierra
12:57<Snail>after using Tej’s patch (from the forums)
12:58<andythenorth>really? :)
13:00<andythenorth>ach the error window doesn’t open near my station
13:00<andythenorth>so the screen record missed it
13:00<andythenorth>it’s probably a feature
13:01<Wolf01> is it any better now?
13:01<andythenorth>adjacent check doesn’t apply when dragging from an existing tile
13:01<andythenorth>actually quite neat, just never noticed it before
13:01<Snail>andythenorth: nope… the executable file I created just crashed
13:02<frosch123>Wolf01: if (e->company_avail != (CompanyMask)-1) continue; <- that line also needs the "any_date" check
13:02<andythenorth>Snail: any message?
13:02<Snail>looks like it wants libpng16
13:02<Snail>but I need to keep 14, otherwise grfcodec crashes
13:03<Snail>unless there’s a new version of grfcodec?
13:03<Wolf01>"if (!any_date && e->company_avail != (CompanyMask)-1) continue;" ?
13:04<andythenorth>Snail: I have libpng15 it seems
13:04<andythenorth>grfcodec wfm
13:05<frosch123>Wolf01: yes
13:05<Wolf01>Also, is it _date the right variable? I didn't seem to find any other suitable
13:06<frosch123>according to AcceptEnginePreview, it is
13:08<andythenorth>Snail: seems my macports has libpng16
13:09<andythenorth>dunno which one is actually used by grfcodec
13:10<+michi_cc>Snail: You can pass --with-png=.... to the configure script to get it to use another version, but I don't know the pkg-config command to give (configure --help will show the arg format)
13:11<Snail>michi_cc: I will try to reconfigure now
13:12<Snail>andythenorth: just do “ port installed libpng "
13:12<Snail>it will tell you which one is active
13:12<andythenorth>libpng @1.6.21_0+universal (active)
13:13<andythenorth>libpng15 looks like it’s Apple supplied
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13:14<andythenorth>but Security Update 2016-002 upgraded to libpng16, because <16 has a vuln
13:14<andythenorth>and I have installed that, so eh
13:15<@Alberth>michi_cc: grfcodec has no configure script :)
13:18<Wolf01>Ok, the dropdown seem to work like before
13:18<Snail>andythenorth: and grfcodec works for you?
13:18<andythenorth>appears to
13:18<andythenorth>I am digging through libpngs
13:19<andythenorth>libpng15 looks like the remnants of a brew install
13:21<Snail>this is hilarious
13:21<Snail>now I activated libpng16
13:21<Snail>and restarted ottd
13:21<Snail>and it crashed because libpng14 is missing...
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13:22<@Alberth>the joys of having exactly one png lib :p
13:23<Snail>alright, I’ll search for a new version of grfcodec
13:26<Wolf01>frosch123, I published the changes as "can-build-vehicle-infrastructure", the new function is used just in the dropdown code, but I'll change the other function too
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13:27<Wolf01>Also version in title now shows nice japanese chars :P
13:28*Wolf01 -> shower -> dinner -> lego batman movie
13:28<frosch123>have fun :)
13:31<Wolf01>Meh... last (and only) projection for today: 19:40
13:31<Wolf01>Still do the first 2 steps
13:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: ? now it has the default text :p
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13:37<@Alberth>hmm, not interested, apparently :p
13:40<@Alberth>frosch123: started hacking to get the default "cargo waiting" message from the industry gui is what I have now, as you can see in the no_waiting.png link, it now displays the default industry text. Maybe that should be removed too?
13:41<Snail>andythenorth: it works :)
13:41<@Alberth>under the assumption that everybody has set that bit to 0, I think it's compatible with current newgrfs
13:42<@Alberth>no andy here, Snail
13:42<Snail>oh he left?
13:42<frosch123>why would you want to remove the other text?
13:42<@Alberth>give newgrf author a clean sheet to start with
13:42<frosch123>then that should be done via the text callback, if the author already uses that one
13:42<@Alberth>eg andy has that list too together with other text
13:43<@Alberth>ah, good point, let me try to find that :)
13:44<frosch123> <- there were also other ideas in the past
13:44<frosch123>but as always, ideas change on an hourly level :)
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13:50*andythenorth got disconnected :P
13:50<andythenorth>really odd wifi performance here
13:51<andythenorth>dead spots
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13:51<andythenorth>Snail: so it works? On Sierra?
13:52<Snail>andythenorth: yes
13:52<andythenorth>Alberth: that looks promising :)
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13:52<Snail>it did give me a zillion of warning messages, but the game seems to work fine
13:53<@Alberth>is there any large advantage to having an explicit handling of such a case rather than just give the author full freedom?
13:54<andythenorth>potato / potato
13:54<andythenorth>it would suit my case to have full freedom
13:55<andythenorth>means I’ll have to recreate the default ‘Production last month’ stuff
13:55<andythenorth>and I might run out of text stack
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13:57<@Alberth>and that doesn't happen with CB 37 then?
13:57<andythenorth>dunno, haven’t tried, but less likely
13:58*andythenorth has cb 37 docs open right now
13:58<andythenorth>for the FIRS case, I could push ‘supplied’ or ‘not supplied’ with cb 37
13:58<andythenorth>and if we could lose the sillly ‘cargo waiting to be processed’ text, then my case is met
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13:59<andythenorth>cargo subtypes make me twitch, they are a bad idea that has leaked into too many places :D
13:59<andythenorth>but it would work
14:01<andythenorth>Alberth: what’s the implementation? Pure hack?
14:02<@Alberth>I think it's clean, I use bit 17 of industry behavior, which is currently not used (in the code)
14:02<andythenorth>so it’s a flag?
14:03<@Alberth>"suppress 'cargo to be processed' text" flag
14:03<andythenorth>currently, the ‘waiting’ text appears if bit 1 or 2 are set in prop 21, which is assumptive
14:03<andythenorth>it assumes only gradual processing :P
14:04<@Alberth>ok, we can call it the "not gradual processing display flag" :)
14:04<andythenorth>can we put it on prop 1A?
14:05<andythenorth>oh that is your proposal
14:05*andythenorth catches up
14:06<@Alberth>yep, and I use bit 18, thus :p
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14:07<frosch123>Alberth: <- that is how ecs does it
14:07<frosch123>personally i consider the ecs method way better than firs
14:07<andythenorth>frosch123: would the flag be an acceptable solution? Or would the cb be prefeable?
14:07<andythenorth>yes, I am going to adopt cb 37
14:08<andythenorth>I was slightly avoiding it because the ‘waiting to be processed’ text makes me sad :)
14:08<frosch123>from a gui consistency view i would always put the input cargos to the top, with some cargo related info next to it
14:08<frosch123>firs for some reason always does some wall of text at the bottom
14:08<andythenorth>well the top is full of useless text :)
14:09<andythenorth>I have stripped it down to
14:09<andythenorth>and the repeating of two cargos at the end is obviously silly
14:09<frosch123>andythenorth: i don't care about flag or callback. it just should be a solution that make sense, and does not break after 2 weeks
14:10<frosch123>iirc you already broke the wall-of-text callback in the past when running out of textstack
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14:10<andythenorth>I had to redesign my text, is fine
14:10<andythenorth>the thing about the flag, it’s adding more stuff to fix a design flaw, no?
14:10<andythenorth>but I can’t think of any appropriate way to fix root cause
14:10<frosch123>so, i stick to my opinion: the "supplies", "more required" message should be next to the cargo at the top
14:11<frosch123>putting it into the wall of text is bad from a gui pov, and also bad from a coding pov
14:11<andythenorth>I’m converted to that view
14:12<@Alberth>In ECS, the top 4 lines are the 'to be processed' lines, and "Production this month:" etc is added, right?
14:12<frosch123>from an ottd pov i would replace the "cargo waiting to be processed" with the "requires" text from, except it would always print a separate line per cargo, instead of the comma-separation
14:12<andythenorth>Alberth: ‘to be processed’ and ‘production this month’ are both default
14:13<frosch123>Alberth: "production this month" is standard, you also see that in the no_waiting screenshot
14:13<andythenorth>‘Animals:’ and ‘Remain:’ are added
14:13<@Alberth>ah, ok, I am there :)
14:13<frosch123>ecs only has debug info at the bottom :)
14:13<@Alberth>it's not debug info :p
14:14<frosch123>it always look to me as if :)
14:14<@Alberth>I reported it once as such, and it was explained it was vital information about the industry :p
14:15<andythenorth>and then I made FIRS :P
14:15<andythenorth>ECS is nice, but not for me :)
14:15<andythenorth>I don’t have enough brain
14:15<@Alberth>I can see the advantage of a line for each cargo, the question is whether we should enforce that, imho
14:16<@Alberth>I am +0.5 or so
14:16<frosch123>imho yes :)
14:16<frosch123>the wall of text makes stuff inconsistent, and is very limited wrt. amount of parameters
14:17<@Alberth>and so the simple patch explodes :p
14:17<frosch123>Alberth: the funny thing is, i think, andy is happy if we just change the string "Cargo to be processed" to "Requires:"
14:18<andythenorth>spurious ‘amount waiting’ values still there then :)
14:18<@Alberth>yeah, silly "0" values :)
14:18<frosch123>and possibly the other lines to "Vehicle parts (0 crates waiting)"
14:18<@Alberth>maybe you should add stockpiling :p
14:19<frosch123>with a cb flag to disable display of the "waiting" part (per cargo)
14:19<andythenorth>modify cb37
14:19<frosch123>Alberth: i think andy actually has stockpiling, he just does not display it
14:19<andythenorth>I do? :O
14:19<frosch123>sure, you have lots of "cargo delivered within 3 months", so you stockpile for 3 months
14:20<andythenorth>implicit :)
14:21<@Alberth>I once coded to take 1/16 of the cargo with a minimum of 1 (or 0 if there is no cargo at all) for yetis, and that had the nice effect that cargo is slowly provided at the output
14:21<@Alberth>slowly ramping down
14:22<@Alberth>it's also stockpiling, but it has no explicit maximum
14:22<@Alberth>although you can't throw 255 every production cycle at it either
14:23<@Alberth>@calc 8*255
14:23<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 2040
14:24<@Alberth>hmm, should be 24K-ish, missing something there
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14:44<@Alberth>"Do results 0800 to 0CFF make any sense?" <-- I think no, or at least not until a valid use case
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14:51<supermop>not a bug, but a headache:
14:51<supermop>I cannot convert town owned ROAD to ELRD
14:52<supermop>so seems like trolley busses are going to be DOA
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14:52<frosch123>there is a TODO in the source about upgrading town roads :)
14:53<andythenorth>results 0800 to 0CFF make sense if the header text (‘cargo waiting…’) can also be specified
14:53<andythenorth>but otherwise it’s weirdly flexible
14:53<andythenorth>author can provide anything, except it must follow the heading :P
14:54<supermop>maybe nrt grf can specify in addition to a list of powered compatible types, types for which a conversion is a non-invasive upgrade
14:55<@Alberth>andythenorth: grfcodec paved the way for that :p
14:55<supermop>specifically allow what to upgrade town owned roads to, so cannot grief by 'upgrading everything to a dirt road, or a road that disallows house growth
14:56<frosch123>Alberth: isn't 800-cff just what andy wants? display no amount, but display "supplied"
14:56<@Alberth>I read it as "free text line for each cargo"
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14:57<frosch123>yeah, with some fine-print you can turn it into anything :)
14:57<@Alberth>so you can put down anything there
14:57<andythenorth>I read it as any arbitrary string
14:57<frosch123>wrt. the text at top, imho it should just say "requires" in all cases
14:58<andythenorth>‘Requires: 0 tonnes of grain’ ?
14:58<@Alberth>Requires: Steel (100 max) ?
14:59<@Alberth>not even sure if the industry has 100, or you must supply 100
15:00<andythenorth>silly industry text :)
15:00<@Alberth>coding your own stockpile text is going to be tricky :p
15:01<frosch123> <- the double parentheses look a bit stupid
15:03<andythenorth>FIRS one looks good :)
15:04<frosch123> <- using colon for the stockpile fixes it
15:05<andythenorth>double colon :)
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15:06<@Alberth>remove the colon after "Requires"
15:07<@Alberth>what is D00-D3FF textref stack 100...105?
15:08<@Alberth>newgrf supplied string with newgrf supplied stacks?
15:10<@Alberth>0800-0CFF is not completely free text I see now, you always print the cargo first. Alright, that could work
15:11<@Alberth>would take a lot of work to make a good looking different layout from that
15:11<frosch123> <- with cb result
15:13<@Alberth>ok, looks good
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15:16<frosch123>ok, who wants to code it?
15:17<@Alberth>I can give it a try
15:17<@Alberth>unless you're bored :)
15:19<frosch123>i was looking to a third breakfast
15:19<frosch123>not sure whether it should be called dinner
15:19<frosch123>but definitely not lunch
15:19<LordAro>if it's with milk in a bowl, probably breakfast
15:19<@Alberth>food :)
15:20<frosch123>it's not midnight snack yet
15:25<frosch123> <- ah, found a proper list
15:25<andythenorth>breakfast is dinner in my house twice a week
15:26<andythenorth>and I am definitely a grown up
15:28<LordAro>i've had hardly any food in the house for days
15:28<LordAro>need to go shopping..
15:28<supermop>what should I do with roads now?
15:28<andythenorth>play test them :)
15:28<andythenorth>half of newgrf is playtesting
15:28<supermop>need more RVs
15:29<andythenorth>half is posting here
15:29<andythenorth>the actual coding is minimal
15:29<supermop>need trolley trucks and dmu trams
15:31<supermop>is heqs nml and gpl?
15:31<frosch123>heqs is nfo, but gpl
15:31<andythenorth>it’s a winning combo
15:32<andythenorth>you now get to convert it to nml :)
15:33<supermop>maybe ill look at ogfx+ or egrvts first
15:33<frosch123>ogfx+ then :)
15:33<frosch123>i think egrvts is nfo as well
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15:34<supermop>do you think a horse pulls a wagon faster on dirt or cobblestone?
15:34<supermop>dirt seems more comfortable for the horse but harder for the wheels
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15:35<supermop>I guess dirt /+ mud
15:35<andythenorth>I have cobblestones outside my office, hard on wheels
15:35<supermop>make it dependent on days since last rainfall
15:35<frosch123>dirt is not hard on wheel, wheels are hard on dirt :p
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>i think you missed the lesson in physics where they explained that forces always equally apply both ways
15:37<andythenorth>you don’t fall through the floor because the floor pushes back
15:37*andythenorth has a book about it
15:38<frosch123>what if the floor only acts as multiplier for the centrigual forces?
15:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: now you have to complani that there are no centrigual forces, only centripedel or so
15:39<andythenorth>good books
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15:40<supermop>the concern is, DIRT having lower speed than cobble for trucks, but higher speed for horses and Subaru imprezas
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15:40<andythenorth>I think I read this too, or one like it, which covers that most structural failures are corner cases
15:40<supermop>i have that book
15:40<andythenorth>edge cases are mostly known and calculated for, unless there is massive innovation
15:41<andythenorth>whereas corner cases are combinatorial, and push beyond the parameters allowed for in the edge cases
15:43<supermop>has the same Italian truck photo I posted the other day
15:43<supermop>so that's where we all saw it before
15:44*andythenorth actually watches an F video
15:45<andythenorth>the waves of flying stuff looks cool
15:46<supermop>I wonder if it is faster to find out from this guy inactive from december if his set is gpl
15:46<supermop>or to just make my own trolleybi
16:00<andythenorth>is not in the nml docs :)
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>it was removed, afaik
16:01<andythenorth>it’s used in FIRS, dunno what it does
16:01*andythenorth is trying to remove warnings about broken translation langs
16:02<andythenorth>“Discard next word from stack”
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>{SKIP} is a parameter that is ignored, like when you have two strings "{A} {B} {C}" and "{A} {C}", you can pass both the same parameters A,B,C if you change the second one to "{A} {SKIP} {C}"
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>means you can reuse the same code to push the parameters to the stack
16:05<andythenorth>it’s present in nml
16:05<andythenorth>might just be missing from docs
16:05*andythenorth can’t fix, can’t log in to wiki
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>it might be under hidden/deprecated features
16:12<andythenorth>not here
16:13<andythenorth>wiki search turns up nothing
16:14<frosch123>it was removed from ottd lang files, since it is pointless there
16:14<frosch123>nfo/nml still need it, because of the text stack
16:16*andythenorth wonders why it was missing from lots of FIRS lang translations
16:17<frosch123>{SKIP} is pretty pointless in translation
16:17<frosch123>possibly eints drops it from translations
16:17<frosch123>and only allows it in base language
16:17<frosch123>but no idea
16:17<andythenorth>well nml complains about mismatched control codes
16:17<frosch123>only guesses
16:18*andythenorth will see whether all my fixes are removed by eints tomorrow
16:18<andythenorth>such tidying :P
16:19<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, how can skip be "pointless" in translations? certainly the order of parameters matters
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly translations need parameters that english doesn't need
16:46<frosch123>translations use {3:STRING} {1:COMMA}
16:48<frosch123>{SKIP} in translations is something that the compilers deals with, not the translator
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>so translations leave them out, like {STRINGn}?
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16:50<frosch123>as, said, if you need to reorder parameters, {SKIP} is pointless
16:50<frosch123>what would {3:STRING}{SKIP}{1:COMMA} mean?
16:51<frosch123>{SKIP} defines register layout in the baselanguage, but it has no information in the translation
16:52*andythenorth wonders why it’s used
16:53<andythenorth>it’s in the primary supplies text
16:53<frosch123>likely because you wanted to do STORE_TEMP(0x100, a), STORE_TEMP(0x101, b) instead of STORE_TEMP(0x100, a | (b << 16))
16:54<frosch123>or you have different versions of strings which use different amount of parameters, but you want to keep the same code to fill them
16:54<frosch123>like when you have strings for 3, 2 and 1 input cargos
16:55<frosch123>and other information in the other registers
16:57<andythenorth>at 4X only one register is used
16:58<andythenorth>so the skip would make sense there
16:58<andythenorth>$someone wrote that for me :)
16:58<frosch123>possibly me
16:59<frosch123>i guess the two parameters have the amount for enhanced and gungho
16:59<frosch123>but the gungho text does not display the enhanced requirement
17:01*andythenorth experimenting with cb37
17:07<supermop>can we have some streets named after engineers other than james watt?
17:07<andythenorth>more station names are possible
17:07<andythenorth>but only one per industry
17:08<andythenorth>no random
17:08<supermop>supp. yard gets it as well
17:08<supermop>in addition to machine shop
17:09<andythenorth>on my ‘todo’ list :)
17:09<andythenorth>I am not inventing the names though
17:10<frosch123>i guess station names are the other strings from the precious dcxx range
17:10<andythenorth>ah, I might not add more then
17:10<frosch123>so, more station names limit more cargos :p
17:11<andythenorth>I am at 233/256
17:11<frosch123>someone need to increase those limis :)
17:12<andythenorth>probably not in 2017
17:13<andythenorth>speedyzapgaming is good value in forums
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17:17<frosch123>i like canoes
17:17<frosch123>but then he ran out of ideas for ship types
17:24<Wolf01>Meh... I'm really bored to do 10 times the same thing in fallout 4, not being able to save is a plague
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i still have to go through 20 years of EU4 endgame...
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>the time just doesn't seem to move forward at all
17:29<Wolf01>Eh, but I'm like "get up - find something to do outside camp - get killed - autoload last autosave"
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>... and i had 10 years of regency, where i couldn't attack anybody
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17:32<Wolf01>Fast travel is disabled, illness is enabled, need to find something to eat (and that something usually tries to kill you) and drink, sleep, console disabled so I can't cheat, enemies (and you too, but does not count) do more damage
17:33<Wolf01>I really liked the survival mode in new vegas, this one is "let's see how much it takes to give up"
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like games from the 80s
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>liks, before they invented monkey island
17:35<Wolf01>Also ammo now has weight, I can't carry anymore 100+ fusion cores and 50 fat boys :(
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>i've never actually played fallout
17:37<Wolf01>It's a good game if you like the genre (TES-like), totally different than the first 2 ones
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know the genre
17:38<Wolf01>Explore the fuck out of the world and make people angry with bad decisions, that is :P
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21:55<supermop>is downloading stuff from the forums very slow for anyone else lately?
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 19 00:00:51 2017