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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-24

---Logopened Fri Feb 24 00:00:58 2017
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04:14<crem>Only visible from one country. Boring.
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04:16<__ln__>obviously if they spend billions of dollars to arrange a solar eclipse, they won't share it with others
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07:42*Wolf01 will be back tomorrow o/
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09:46<Arveen>high five
10:14<supermop__>why do people ask me of all people to code stuff?
10:15<supermop__>i don't even know how to use excel
10:23<supermop__>maybe i am misinterpreting tone
10:25<supermop__>but "The only reason I ever wanted road types to begin with is so..." sounds to me like someone angry that a feature exists but no author has made a grf with that feature yet?
10:33<supermop__>i feel actively discouraged from making a speed limit test fork of ARRS now
10:37<@Alberth>nah, he just wants speed limits rather than road types. Road types however can also provide speed limits
10:38<supermop__>yeah, so i don't see what the point of complaint is
10:40<@Alberth>He is only complaining about lack of such limits, although imho using road types purely for speed limits is overkill, imho
10:41<@Alberth>basically the usual confusion between RL and a game :)
10:41<@Alberth>or that scales mean anything in openttd :p
10:42<@Alberth>it has nothing to do with your work at all
10:45<@Alberth>if you make a version with speed limits, he is likely to be estatic, as you provided the thing he is dearly missing
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10:48<supermop__>i kinda wanted to make tramway with catenary that is $$$ and fast vs tramway with trolley wire that is cheap and slow
10:48<supermop__>but it's not a huge priority for me
10:49<supermop__>sort of a 'trolley line' and 'modern Light rail'
10:49<supermop__>and 'cable hauled streetcar' but that sounds like it would be a pain
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10:51<@Alberth>"experimental" :)
10:54<@Alberth>hmm, a pipe grf to do fast and large quantities transport... that could be interesting
10:55<@Alberth>ships could work too
10:57<supermop__>i've considered coding chairlifts/gondolas as a road or tram type
10:57<supermop__>really needs type limited bridges
10:58<supermop__>or at least type specific bridge graphics
10:58<supermop__>and i feel like i would have noticed if that was possible
11:01<@Alberth>yep, I also think you cannot enforce that currently
11:01<@Alberth>bridges are very limited anyway, with just 11 in total
11:03<@Alberth>although I just need 1 generic bridge :p
11:04<supermop__>did you play TTO
11:05<supermop__>damn i miss that monorail bridge
11:06<supermop__>of course i could slog through NFO to make a bridgetype that is only a a pair of overhead cables, but that might be a bit nervewracking for car drivers
11:08<@Alberth>I didn't
11:08<@Alberth>nah, openttd car drivers are very good at driving :)
11:09<@Alberth>they can even drive over invisible bridges :)
11:10<@Alberth>but basically, it's a matter of the player respecting intended use of the object
11:11<@Alberth>he/she can always make a huge mess
11:11<@Alberth>AIs are particularly good at it :p
11:11<supermop__>coffee time
11:12<@Alberth>you can't control that or stop that, so better simply ignore it
11:12<@Alberth>I had quite enough coffee today, but dinner would be useful
11:21<supermop__>i also got a donut
11:22<supermop__>which has a fragment of stroopwaffle on top for some reason
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12:13<supermop__>ok i better code a trolleytruck before the weekend
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13:23<supermop_>for a steel wheeled tram and a rubber tyred trolley bus, of equal weight and hp, which should have the higher TE
13:24<supermop_>rubber seems grippier and better for slopes but...
13:24<supermop_>i guess friction and deformation losses from the tires is a separate issue from TE
13:25<@Alberth>wouldn't that start counting at higher speeds?
13:26<supermop_>not sure
13:26<@Alberth>throw a die :)
13:27<supermop_>i mean a city doesn't choose tram or bus based on TE and friction, but it is a consideration for say, rubber tyred metro
13:27<supermop_>and monorail, people movers etc
13:27<@Alberth>in RL, definitely
13:27<@Alberth>in a game, much less
13:27<+glx>less energy required to move the same weight on rail than on road
13:27<supermop_>clearly there are some cases where someone has chosen rubber for a reason other than cheapness
13:27<@Alberth>freedom of movement :p
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13:28<supermop_>because in some of those cases the rubber is more $$ overall than the steel, and there is still the cost of guiderails
13:28<+glx>I think they use tyred metro when there are too steep slopes
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13:29<supermop_>glx: thats what i was thinking, i know chongqing uses monorail for some metro lines for that reason
13:29<supermop_>so for a trolley truck that means it should have more TE than a tram?
13:29<supermop_>trolley bus can have more HP than diesel bus
13:30<supermop_>so if player is paying for wires for bus, there should be some reason to choose trolley bus instead of tram
13:31<+glx>tyred metro also increases capacity of the line due to better acceleration and deceleration
13:31<supermop_>because i think the subtle difference in cost between rail+wires and wires only is too academic to have any meaningful impact in game
13:32<supermop_>not sure how rolling resistance is meaningful in game either, other than abusing air drag
13:33<supermop_>so: bus = cheapest, trolleybus=best acceleration, tram= most efficient?
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13:45<@Alberth>supermop_: just pick what you want for the vehicles, and fix stats to match, nobody claims they must have same HP or whatever
13:47<@Alberth>ie let game-play lead
13:49<supermop_>Alberth: i guess my question is, rather than as a cute toy, what is the gameplay point of a trolleybus
13:51<@Alberth>diversity in trams
13:52<andythenorth>should we just make ‘nml as a service’
13:52<andythenorth>web app
13:53<andythenorth>if we could do it stateless…it would be probably quite trivial
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13:53<andythenorth>no user accounts, no projects, no state
13:53<@Alberth>I love open wagons, as they make such nice variations on the tracks
13:53<andythenorth>session based, if you want to store it, export json
13:53<andythenorth>to restore your session, upload the json
13:53<@Alberth>technically, just one box wagon would work too
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13:56<andythenorth>hmm, why even json?
13:56<andythenorth>just make an nml serialiser / deserialiser :P
13:56<andythenorth>use the native format as the import / export format :P
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13:59<frosch123>andythenorth: sounds a bit cumbersome to upload 1GiB of sprites everyday
13:59<@Alberth>not to mention publishing the grf as GPL
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14:00<frosch123>andythenorth: also, there is a native nml binary for windows
14:00<frosch123>if people are too stupid to use that one, they are also too stupid to use nml in general, and they are also probably too stupid to use a web interface
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14:06<@Alberth>or too scared, as it involves "programming"
14:06<andythenorth>it was the ‘coding’ comments that made me think of it
14:06<andythenorth>coding NRT without callbacks is barely coding
14:07<andythenorth>or at least, it’s simple declarative markup, like BBCode
14:07<andythenorth>or HTML
14:07<andythenorth>it could be done in a web UI :P
14:07<andythenorth>‘upload a sprite'
14:07*andythenorth realised all the error cases and support burden :P
14:07<andythenorth>burn that idea
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14:08<@Alberth>it's basically GRFmaker, I guess
14:09<@Alberth>for some reason people are fine typing numbers in a GUI, but not in a plain text file :)
14:10<andythenorth>I wonder if the abandonment rate on grfs tracks the abandonment rate on SaaS web apps like goal trackers, to-do lists etc
14:11<@Alberth>that sentence is not understandable for me
14:24<andythenorth>lots of people sign up to free web apps
14:24<andythenorth>with good intentions
14:24<andythenorth>and some project in mind
14:25<andythenorth>but the number who give up is high :)
14:27<@Alberth>trying to realize a dream it makes them realize dreaming about a result is much simpler
14:28<@Alberth>dreaming about realizing beats realizing the dream :p
14:32<@Alberth>btw, new FIRS is much better
14:33<@Alberth>you get off the ground much easier
14:34<andythenorth>good :)
14:35<@Alberth>I am somewhat undecided about lack of proper distance between producing and consuming industries
14:35<@Alberth>on the one hand it's annoying to have a connection that is so short
14:36<@Alberth>on the other hand, it does bring variation in delivery
14:38<ST2>hi :)
14:38<ST2>FIRS 2, Road Hog, Iron Horse and FISH 2.... what can go wrong?! xD
14:38<ST2>I owe a big thanks to someone ^^
14:38<ST2>"Father's Day" event:
14:38<ST2>All invited :)
14:39<@Alberth>don't think there are many players here
14:40<ST2>invitation includes to spectate :)
14:41<@Alberth>does that happen? sounds quite boring
14:41<ST2>I'll spectate... would be unfair to play it knowing the scenario to use xD
14:42<@Alberth>well, except for game masters then? :p
14:42<ST2>yeah - known fact :P
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14:58<andythenorth>Alberth: needs to be at least 16px distance
14:58<andythenorth>‘to do’
14:59<andythenorth>ST2: no AV9? o_O
14:59<ST2>and now can't included it - it's a custom scenario :(
15:00<ST2>and we're a bit affraid of flying so, plane limits are kinda low xD
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15:02<andythenorth>rainbows eh
15:03<ST2>nice replacement for trains smoke ^^
15:04<andythenorth>also same location
15:29<andythenorth>such cloudbleed
15:33<ST2>I know V was busy with the small gust of wind (fff)
15:33<andythenorth>winning V453000
15:34*andythenorth wondered about ottd station tiles that replicate the ground tile of an adjacent tile
15:34<andythenorth>determined by which edge you click near when building
15:44<@Alberth>Nice, V :)
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15:54<@Alberth>you ever use several different ground tiles for one station? Also, what tile would you select?
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16:29<frosch123>i wonder why video games make uranium always green
16:29<frosch123>i think its just biter shit in disguise
16:30<V453000>._. Slugz
16:31<frosch123>most metals look the same :p
16:31<V453000>I don't think we can keep being friends frosch
16:31<V453000>Not after these words
16:32<andythenorth>supermop: I found some trails sprites
16:32<andythenorth>they’re bad
16:32<andythenorth>but eh
16:32<frosch123>V453000: what is wrong with burning biter products?
16:32<frosch123>too ecological?
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16:33<andythenorth>do I need multiple repos for BROS?
16:33<andythenorth>probably not
16:35<frosch123>V453000: did you also adjust the minimal colors?
16:35<frosch123>for me its always hard to distinguish stone and iore on first look, unless they are next to each other
16:35<V453000>The fuck is minimal colors?
16:36<V453000>Not yet
16:36<V453000>Whole map has never been touched by a person who has any colour sense
16:36<V453000>Maybe will make it into 0.15
16:38<andythenorth>BRIX-style factorio? o_O :P
16:39<frosch123>ah, the green originates from uranium-glas
16:44<andythenorth>more-mathematically-accurate-still-too-short boats
16:44<andythenorth>look wrong in game :P
16:45<andythenorth>maybe I’m just too used to chibi diagonal views
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16:50<andythenorth>‘field tiles'
16:50*andythenorth cleaning up old stuff
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17:03<it_>Hello. I was wondering where I can find clear defintions on scenario files. I wanted to create a new scenario given height data, city locations and river/lake locations. I suppose I can't just create a map if I want to add river & lakes; what if I want to add cities too?
17:05<frosch123> <- there is an ancient topic about that
17:05<frosch123>i think there are also topics about founding towns in specific places, but it is even more fiddly
17:09<it_>Hm well I saw that topic. But the post is about creating heightmaps and loading them into the scenario editor. I managed to do that already, what I want to achieve now is add rivers & lakes (and later cities)
17:09<it_>which afaik you can't add to the heightmap somehow? :/
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17:56<ST2> <<-- Factorio "beer" belts?! xD
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18:45<supermop_>ok this templating isn't working
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22:40<snadge>has anyone thought about adding the 2014 music support somehow?
22:41<snadge>in 2014.. john broomhall re-recorded the music to transport tycoon deluxe, for the Android / iOS remake
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22:41<snadge>he used a real trumpet player, and saxophone player
22:42<snadge>and allowed them to improvise.. basically just gave them artistic freedom and said, go for it
22:42<snadge>the result is .. pretty cool
22:42<supermop>yeah I've heard some of it
22:42<snadge>its on youtube here in its entirety..
22:43<snadge>i think he also might have played the keys.. i can hear some different effects and stuff as well
22:43<snadge>so im thinking of buying the android version, and pulling apart the apk, because you can't buy the soundtrack.. which is pretty dumb
22:44<snadge>so maybe we could patch the audio engine to be able to use the 2014 music, if you drop it in there, and select the option to use it
22:45<snadge>i guess you can just play the youtube video in the background, and mute the music ;)
22:46<supermop>well there are a few issues, but basically when transport tycoon was made in the early 90s, game music was basically midi or nothing
22:46<snadge>right.. an mp3/ogg player would have to be patched into it
22:46<supermop>so the game implemented it's own midi player
22:47<snadge>the built in midi player is actually pretty good
22:47<supermop>but now almost any computer playing the game will have other means to play music, and maybe even a better, dedicated means of playing midi music
22:48<supermop>the game only really includes a midi player at all out of faithfulness for recreating the original game
22:48<snadge>hmm.. i cant see the option to use the emulated midi
22:49<snadge>i have mine redirected to a roland sound canvas 880 (external)
22:49<snadge>and that sounds pretty sweet ;)
22:49<supermop>I've never installed a base music set nor used the in game jukebox in the entire time I've used openttd
22:49<snadge>its understandable, i mean.. if you're going to spend a significant amount of time in game
22:49<snadge>it would drive you nuts
22:49<snadge>i literally know every note to every single song
22:50<supermop>if I listen to music why playing, it's always been some other source of music either on the computer or my stereo
22:50<snadge>it plays in my head sometimes.. when im just doing every day things in life
22:50<snadge>i haven't heard the openmsx version of the music.. it would probably offend me
22:51<supermop>I don't think there is much need to bloat the game itself with a mp3 codec or whatever, as anyone would have other means to play the mp3s if they wanted
22:51<supermop>openmsx is different music as it its all legally free
22:52<supermop>public domain or newly created with an open license
22:52<supermop>i've never listened to it myself,
22:52<snadge>yeah but it probably wouldn't take much to add mp3/ogg support.. maybe a few hundred kb worth of dlls at the most
22:52<snadge>then people would have an easier time of creating their own music sets
22:52<snadge>but i dont know if there would be much call for it
22:53<supermop>but why not just use whatever your favorite mp3 player is
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22:53<snadge>and turn the inbuild music off.. exactly
22:54<supermop>unlike modern games where the music needs to relate to cut scenes or the action, the transport tycoon music just plays through like an album
22:54<supermop>so there really is no need to have it playing in the game itself
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22:55<supermop>also, even if mp3 support were added, the live transport tycoon music certainly could never be included
22:57<snadge>no.. you would have to drop it in there like you currently have to anyway
22:57<supermop>OpenTTD strives to be a legal, open source project, and the license of the music would preclude it
22:58<snadge>i wonder how many people actually go to the trouble to use the original sounds/music/graphics.. since its not exactly straight forward.. i googled, and found a guide that told me which files etc
22:58<snadge>of course from my licensed copy of ttd
22:58<supermop>I only had TTO, not ttd, so I don't even own a copy
22:59<snadge>so.. observation #1 .. the Pop preset on the sc880.. really brings life to the openmsx music track
22:59<supermop>but I always play without music or soundeffects
22:59<snadge>without soundeffects too? whut? :p
22:59<supermop>level crossing bells get old after about the third time you hear them
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23:01<snadge>the open music is not as terrible as i was expecting
23:01<snadge>it peeves me that the sound canvas doesn't automatically note off.. so if you interrupt the track.. some sounds just hang indefinitely
23:04<snadge>its not just the crossing bells.. its the cows mooing etc as well
23:13<supermop>i have no idea how these nml templates are supposed to work
---Logclosed Sat Feb 25 00:00:59 2017