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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-25

---Logopened Sat Feb 25 00:00:59 2017
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03:05<@Alberth>another issue with adding eg mp3, is that openttd is cross-platform, which means a lot of mp3 implementations are needed
03:05<@Alberth>note that afaik mp3 has its share of legal problems, so it's not really open
03:06<@Alberth>you'd be surprised on the number of people running the original graphics; the quality of those is a lot higher than opengfx
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03:43<andythenorth_>bbl, phone irc :p
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05:25<andythenorth>isn’t it
05:25<@Alberth>likely it is
05:26<andythenorth>what shall I call it then?
05:27<andythenorth>^ Wolf01 thinking of starting a fork with experimental branches for docks, diagonal canals etc
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05:28<Wolf01>Ok, "notsomething" could be our distinctive brand :P
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>too close to "nosomething"
05:29<andythenorth>new fork, or rename
05:29<andythenorth>I can rename NotRoadTypes to NotSomething or NotStuff
05:30<andythenorth>fork is overkill
05:30<Wolf01>NotOpenTTD :D
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: definitely a new fork
05:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why? o_O
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>so you have easier time merging the old fork
05:32<andythenorth>it’s just git? o_O
05:32<@Alberth>yep, keeping separate things separate is easier
05:32<andythenorth>if I rename it will break the git paths for people’s checkouts
05:32<andythenorth>that’s rude
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05:35<@Alberth>new fork ensures you're not using non-trunk stuff, since it's not there
05:36<andythenorth>also reduces the temptation to merge lots of unrelated branches together ‘to see what happens’ :P
05:37<@Alberth>you can still do that, but not in a development branch
05:37<andythenorth>it is github admin though, provisioning users etc
05:37<@Alberth>make a "merge all the things" branch :)
05:37<andythenorth>making a whole new repo isn’t really how git development is supposed to work :)
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05:38<andythenorth>sledgehammer, nut
05:38<@Alberth>new branch from master origin/master works too
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05:39<@Alberth>unmerging things you slapped together is stuff for nightmares :)
05:39<Wolf01>Meh... VLC can't convert a video, I can't understand why
05:40<andythenorth>branch revert is usually ok, with...caveats
05:40<andythenorth>what’s the wish list for NotWater?
05:41<Wolf01>Moar features
05:42<Wolf01>It would be a nice thing to have the water levels
05:42<andythenorth> ?
05:43<andythenorth>- diagonal river and canal tiles?
05:44<Wolf01>Non destroyable rivers
05:44<andythenorth>- rivers that respawn when bulldozed?
05:44<@Alberth>why is water flooding useful?
05:44<andythenorth>- or rivers that must remain connected (pathfinder) even if moved?
05:45<andythenorth>Alberth: do the ideas, then the why later? o_O
05:45<Wolf01>The flooding could be avoided at first step
05:45<andythenorth>50% of these are probably terrible terrible ideas :)
05:45<@Alberth>I'd start with non-destructible
05:45<andythenorth>and 25% of ideas are probably at best ‘meh'
05:46<andythenorth>flat docks?
05:46<andythenorth>multi-stop docks?
05:46<Wolf01>These are really a killer feature
05:46<andythenorth>limited ships per bouy?
05:47<@Alberth>not sure how feasible that is, you'd need some sort of reservation system so bouys don't get overrun
05:47<andythenorth>ships which have a ‘size’ concept (occupy n slots per dock)?
05:47<andythenorth>ship physics (engine hp, affects acceleration)
05:48<andythenorth>ship physics: rivers have a flow direction, more powerful ships go faster upstream
05:48<@Alberth>sounds doable
05:48<andythenorth>ship physics: hull drag coefficient
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: compose ship sprites of several smaller parts to avoid clipping
05:49<andythenorth>what Eddi said
05:49<@Alberth>hull drag seems overkill, can't you do that with HP ?
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>so they don't have one huge bounding box, but several smaller ones
05:49<andythenorth>Alberth: yes, I was deliberately adding ideas that can be shot down :)
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>hull drag might be relevant if you add moving water
05:49<Wolf01>Btw, I would like to implement the idea of not having stations just for rails, a "build station" gui which allows to build a multi-tile station with the same graphics over road/rail as frosch proposed
05:50<andythenorth>Wolf01: that’s Not NotWater
05:50<andythenorth>that’s NotStations :)
05:50<andythenorth>and yes, I was thinking about it
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05:50<andythenorth>non-routed station tiles / station objects
05:50<@Alberth>add some dock features, and you have nice non-stations :)
05:50<andythenorth>with some UI to make them available trivially when building train / RV / airport / dock
05:51<andythenorth>2 tile or 1 tile locks
05:52<Wolf01>Btw, for NotWater: articulated ships is a base requirement
05:52<Wolf01>I want logging barges
05:53<@Alberth>throw some logs into the river :)
05:53<andythenorth>you’d want them arbitrarily composable? Like trains?
05:53<andythenorth>or like RVs, pre-built?
05:53<Wolf01>More like trams
05:53<Wolf01>You choose the length
05:53*andythenorth wondered about binning all ships and start again from scratch
05:54<andythenorth>implementing them like trains, with defined routes that have to be built
05:54<andythenorth>sea lanes
05:54<@Alberth>I somewhat do that, by adding bouys
05:54<andythenorth>I don’t necessarily think it’s a good idea
05:54<andythenorth>but worth considering
05:54<andythenorth>no matter how much newgrf, ships are still quite lame
05:55<@Alberth>would give finer control over where ships go
05:55<andythenorth>it’s a fork, so we don’t need to consider savegames :x
05:55<andythenorth>or newgrf authors
05:56<@Alberth>it does need simple crossing though
05:56<andythenorth>@calc 4/8
05:56<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.5
05:56<andythenorth>I have made 50% of the ship sets, more or less
05:56<andythenorth>so we can break newgrf, right?
05:57<@Alberth>"extend" is the right word :p
05:57<@Alberth>openttd would remain compatible however, for old savegames
05:57<@Alberth>so maybe a combination of old and new?
05:57<Wolf01>Ferry between 2 fixed points (like a bridge, better if diagonal too) could be considered as NotWater?
05:58<@Alberth>it does stuff with ships :)
05:59<@Alberth>oh, multi-cargo ships?
05:59<Wolf01>It's a fake ship, more like a canal feature
06:00<Wolf01>Isn't "goods" already a multi-cargo?
06:00<Wolf01>Pax+mail could be good, but I don't think we'll ever see a oil+logs ship
06:01<andythenorth>- multi-cargo ships
06:01<@Alberth>you could put the logs in the oil to save space!
06:01<ZirconiumX>Or build the ship out of logs
06:01<andythenorth>import finished
06:08<andythenorth>does the background / proposition sound about right?
06:08<Wolf01>Ideas are an issue :P
06:08<andythenorth>I could have put it in the wiki I guess
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06:09<andythenorth>meta-critique :P
06:09<andythenorth>what about the content? o_O
06:09<Wolf01>I'll try an a* river feature for editor soon or later
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06:14<@Alberth>Add an "idea" label to the issue :p
06:17<@Alberth>adding "moving" rivers need river direction, I think
06:17<@Alberth>as all rivers are connected through sea
06:18<@Alberth>also, what is the point of cb37 for building industries?
06:20<@Alberth>add dock stuff? or is that issue #2?
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07:26<andythenorth>Alberth: issue #1 is overview and scope
07:26<andythenorth>then I’ll link it to other issues
07:26<andythenorth>it’s like a story ticket
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07:26<andythenorth>such project management :P
07:27<@Alberth>you should make tickable items - [ ] foo
07:27<andythenorth>cb 37 when building - I assume it will show the subtype text in the ‘fund industry’ menu
07:27<@Alberth>it does
07:28<andythenorth>I think the originally intended subtype use there is highly misleading
07:28<@Alberth>but it doesn't make much sense, as there is no concrete cargo or so
07:28<andythenorth>looks like an industry requiring ‘Food (bread)’ wouldn’t acccept ‘Food (cakes)'
07:29<andythenorth>I wonder if it’s used by any grf
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08:13<Wolf01>Btw, I like 3 tile locks, but they must be working realistically with ship that stops in the middle and raising/lowering the ship... better if only 1 at time
08:15<frosch>locks do not make much sense, if you want to make rivers traversable
08:15<frosch>locks would be something for more than 1 height level
08:17<frosch>make locks 2-4 tile while requireing 2-4 height levels? while making ships travel 1 height level per 3 tiles distance?
08:18<@Alberth>do ships fit in a lock?
08:18<Wolf01>Articulated ships in a lock is not feasible
08:19<Wolf01>Like an oil tanker in a lock
08:19<Wolf01>specially for 1-2 tile lock
08:19<frosch>same holds for rivers :)
08:19<frosch>locks are river-like
08:19<frosch>oil tankers also do not fit into rivers
08:19<@Alberth>fair enough
08:20<Wolf01>If one wants to build a "Panama channel" diorama, it should be possible
08:20<frosch>or canals
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08:20<frosch>maybe locks always have width 1 then?
08:20<frosch>while canals can be broader?
08:23<Wolf01>Canals should be broader, ships should collide, so if you want to have bidirectional canals you must have >=2 tiles
08:23<andythenorth>I’ll put a sub-list
08:23<andythenorth>and some of the ideas
08:23<andythenorth>my objection is that rivers pretty much require locks
08:23<andythenorth>and they’re rarely straight
08:24<andythenorth>so most of my rivers end up as canals
08:24<andythenorth>seems pointless :)
08:25<frosch>Wolf01: btw. ttdp has that travel vertically in locks
08:25<frosch>it does not look as well as it sounds
08:25<Wolf01>I remember it, it needs proper animation
08:26<frosch>problem with ships staying in place is that they overlap even more
08:26<frosch>and you do not want to go down the eddi route :p
08:26<Wolf01>Don't make ships overlap, that is :P
08:27<andythenorth>in my last game I built all my canals as 2 tiles
08:28<andythenorth>just to see the ships better
08:28<andythenorth>they seem to neatly stick to one drive side
08:28<Wolf01>I usually put buoys on locks entrances to force ships not using the same lock in different directions
08:30<andythenorth>dunno if I really captured all the ideas :)
08:30<@Alberth>andy, do you have a firs for extended cb37?
08:31<andythenorth> 5243 and 5244
08:31<frosch>andythenorth: btw. with "ships travel 1 height level per 3 tiles distance" i mean "travel without lock"
08:31<@Alberth>playing dangerous, latest breaking trunk :)
08:33<andythenorth>canals are uni-directional? o_O
08:34<andythenorth>ships gain equivalent of reserved tiles?
08:34<andythenorth>so no collisions, but they reserve x tiles
08:34<andythenorth>if a ship can’t reserve any forward path, it’s deadlocked?
08:34<@Alberth>wouldn't just direction be enough
08:34<@Alberth>probably allowing perpendicular too
08:34<andythenorth>considering alternatives :)
08:35<@Alberth>you definitely want to ships after each other
08:35<andythenorth>each canal has two bi-directional lanes
08:35<andythenorth>but larger ships reserve both :P
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09:34<supermop>is it impossible to make a template for properties that all trucks of a generation share in regular nml?
09:36<frosch>regular nml has templates only for spritelayouts
09:36<supermop>:( ok
09:37<supermop>well I already commented out my templates last night and added the stuff to each truck individually
09:37<supermop>now apparently no sound is not a valid choice
09:38<frosch>i also mute every game
09:38<frosch>it's one of the downsides of factorio
09:38<frosch>you can only turn down the volume, but not really mute
09:38<frosch>haven't checked lately, but at some point it was impossible to disable the intro music
09:39<frosch>but it is not that loud, so if my regular music is loud enough, it does not matter :)
09:41<frosch>i hope V does not make the music of f, or he will be upset again :p
10:02<supermop>nmlc complaind about line 177 "item"
10:03<supermop>but not for line 102
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10:10<supermop>oh I miss a } before it
10:15<supermop>now it saws 'unknown string'
10:17<supermop>i have "name: string(STR_NAME_MKI_T_GOODS);"
10:18<supermop>nmlc complains that "STR_NAME_MKI_T_GOODS" is an unknown string
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10:23<supermop>what does unknown string mean? the string is defined exactly as that in the lng file
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10:24<supermop>is "name:" the wrong way to use the string? I copied it from ogfx+
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10:30<andythenorth>paste the line of code
10:31<supermop>in that paste it would be line 6
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10:37<@Alberth>in lang/english.lng?
10:37<supermop>STR_NAME_MKI_T_GOODS:Bufo Motive Works 'GP' Trolley Truck
10:39<@Alberth>so that should work
10:40<@Alberth>line 3 looks a bit short?
10:43<supermop>soooo I had been working in the lng file as a txt file then saving it to lng
10:43<@Alberth>ogf seems to have 3 arguments, no idea what the 3rd one means
10:44<supermop>but the lng file was out of date and missed that string
10:45<@Alberth>some of the project names use "opengfx-" others use "ogfx-" as prefix
10:46<@Alberth>so for me, they all mean "opengfx" :)
10:54<supermop>offsets need some work I guess
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11:04<@Alberth>would increase traffic safety :)
11:08<supermop>ok changing y offset did noting?
11:16<@Alberth>perhaps you changed bounding box ?
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11:18<supermop>now the issue is, cannot string up wires over town owned roads
11:19<supermop>meaning, paradoxically, it is much, much harder to build a trolley bus line in a city than a tram line
11:19<supermop>as you have to destroy all the existing road first
11:25<supermop>should I add some 2cc stripes before releasing?
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12:13<Wolf01>Town roads should be upgradable to a compatible type
12:15<Wolf01>I also always found annoying to not being able to make town roads one way
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12:18<Wolf01>And if you are able to destroy the town road, place your own and make it one way, the limit should just be the local authority rating
12:23<supermop>Wolf01: please try
12:23<supermop>frosch and andythenorth too pls
12:23<supermop>there are lame easter eggs
12:24<Wolf01>I'll try it later, I'm dying of back pain and sleepness right now
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12:33<supermop>that does not sound fun
12:38<supermop>ooooh I discovered a workaround
12:39<supermop>build trolleybus stops on the town road then remove the stop
12:40<supermop>only works on straight road but then you get town owned wires
12:42*andythenorth is mostly afk :)
12:42<andythenorth>but releases are good
12:42<supermop>ok problem: can build trolleybuses in non electric depots
12:44<supermop>property is "road_type: ELRD; "
12:44<supermop>but it runs fine on regular road
12:45<andythenorth>what’s ELRD defining?
12:46<supermop>trolley grf doesn't define ELRD anywhere
12:46<supermop>docklands is loaded
12:49<supermop>If I play a game without docklands, hence no ELRD, trolleybuses still available in ROAD depot
12:50<andythenorth>does docklands define ELRD?
12:51<supermop>but vehicles show up even without it
12:58<frosch>ottd knows about ELRD by default
12:59<frosch>there is a blank at the start of your grf's name btw :)
12:59<supermop>but I set the road_type to ELRD, but they seem to still be ROAD vehicles
12:59<frosch>don't put spaces after the ":" in the lng files
13:00<frosch>can you paste your source somewhere?
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13:02<supermop>ignore the common properties part that's commented out
13:03<frosch>i see, we made nml<->ottd slightly inconsistent
13:04<frosch>you need a roadttype_translationtable
13:04<frosch>i guess this should be fixed in nml
13:04<supermop>what does that table do/ do you have an example?
13:05<frosch>add "roadtypetable { ROAD, ELRD }" at the top, after grf {}
13:05<frosch>(i believe that is the syntax)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>it matches whatever roadtypes you use in the grf to the ones that are actually defined in the game
13:06<supermop>just that would fix it?
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>because you can't assume that the types are always there, or defined in the same order
13:06<frosch>yes, as a work around, but we should fix nml to make it also work without :)
13:06<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: no
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13:06<frosch>the thing is that nml knows about default road and railtypes
13:07<frosch>but ottd actually does not accept default-roadtypes unless explicitly defined, to make old rv/tram sets compatible
13:07<frosch>but ottd behaves differently for roadtypes vs. railtypes
13:07<frosch>s/vs/compared to/
13:14<supermop>ok works as expected now
13:14<supermop>will update post
13:14<frosch>i pushed a fix to nml, though in this case "fix" means that it would not compile the grf without the roadtypetable
13:15<frosch>so, no advantage in upgrading for you :)
13:16<supermop>as is trolley buses can go to drive in stops
13:16<supermop>that's intended
13:17<supermop>but open to differing opinions
13:17<supermop>they can also overtake each other, which is unrealistic, but I want them to be able to pass regular trucks, which is realistic
13:18<supermop>and major advantage irl vs. trams
13:20<supermop>is it possible to make a dual mode truck that can drive on ROAD, but has more power on ELRD?
13:21<frosch>set the property to ROAD
13:22<frosch>and add a "power" case to the "graphics" section, which goes to a switch, which checks "current_roadtype"
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13:31<frosch>supermop: <- something like that
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13:41<supermop>cool thanks!
13:41<supermop>I might add a new generation but have the same time scale
13:42<frosch>thanks as well :) good that someone uses it
13:44<supermop>well now we can test things like how to electrify town roads
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27748 trunk/src/lang/polish.txt (2017-02-25 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish: 1 change by wojteks86
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14:02<andythenorth>supermop: I am probably going to do trolley-assist mining trucks
14:02<andythenorth>it’s completely stupid for gameplay, but I don’t think I’ll be able to resist :P
14:03<andythenorth>I did same with an engine in IH; bad ideas that we do ‘because we can’ :D
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14:17<Wolf01>Also the ETF one, maybe a consist of them in HAUL :D
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15:01*andythenorth considers a micro economy
15:02<andythenorth>dragline -> primary crusher -> final crusher -> bulk ore terminal
15:03<andythenorth>would need a tailored base set for the landscape though eh :P
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15:43<Wolf01>Seem that V is into mining too
16:30<supermop_home>Tonka trucks?
16:31<supermop_home>the trolley/panto Tonka trucks look BA
16:33<supermop_home>:( no downloads yet
16:37<supermop_home>ok whats the greater priority now, given that I personally cannot fix the ELRL on town roads issue? more generic non-electric trams? road grf with dirt roads?
16:37<supermop_home>andythenorth: bucket ropeway as roadtype?
16:38<frosch>supermop_home: forum download counter has been broken for years
16:40<supermop_home>i hope the truck names are neither offensive nor too verbose
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16:47<supermop_home>hmm on 20 tile test track, higher top speed of default truck wins over higher hp of trolleytruck
16:47<frosch>also uphill?
16:48<supermop_home>no hills. next ill add more stops
16:49<supermop_home>oh accel was on original
16:52<supermop_home>ok now with a hill climb straight up 10 height levels
16:53<supermop_home>wish we had regenerative brakeing
16:54<supermop_home>hmm the trolley truck looks much faster on the hill but its only a 2 day difference on timetable
16:54<supermop_home>maybe it needs even more power
16:55<supermop_home>regular is 223 hp for 12t, trolley is 700 for 10t
16:56<supermop_home>the effect is much more noticeable on stop and start traffic than even on steep hill climbs
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17:02<supermop_home>frosch is it possible to have a running cost switch for decelerating ?
17:03<andythenorth>do both trucks weigh the same?
17:04<supermop_home>and even more exotic: vehicle is already at top speed but gravity wants it to accelerate
17:04<supermop_home>andythenorth: trolley truck 2 tons lighter
17:04<frosch>supermop_home: i think some ukrs version had that
17:04<frosch>but generally that is kind of pointless micro management
17:05<supermop_home>watching this truck run downhill I want some of that free electricity back
17:05<frosch>unless you play like rondje, every truck will go as much uphill as downhill
17:05<frosch>so jsut pick an average running cost in the first place
17:06<supermop_home>what if it goes downhill with full load, and uphill empty? I should be selling the extra electricity back to the power company
17:07<supermop_home>then at night time when the power is cheap we drive all of the load back up the mountain to repeat tomorrow :)
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17:15*andythenorth needs zzz
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20:37<drac_boy>sorry to be not-game-rleated again but just curious if anyone here know if its not too uncommon to have a tank engine thats basically lower half for water and upper half for firefuel re the boilerside bunkers?
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20:42<drac_boy>hi conductorcat .. need any mices? ;)
20:45*drac_boy gives conductorcat the grf of a caboose to ride on anyway
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 26 00:00:01 2017