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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-01

---Logopened Wed Mar 01 00:00:05 2017
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02:07<Supercheese>Yes, we have no bananas
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02:29<@Alberth>they died?
02:30<Supercheese>We have no bananas today
02:31<@Alberth>site works for me, so I am guessing you're talking about local physical somewhat bent entities :)
02:32<@Alberth>no shop nearby to get some new replacements?
02:34<Supercheese>!_We_Have_No_Bananas ;)
02:36<@Alberth>ha! :D
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02:37<Supercheese>But we do, however, have lots of Kerbals
02:37*Supercheese is on a KSP binge
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03:08<Samu>wagon weight running costs:
03:09<Samu>it's incomplete, and i'm not too happy about it, so i'm gonna do something else
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04:40<Samu>noob question
04:40<Samu>are there only 3 aircraft subtypes?
04:40<Samu>heli, small and large?
04:41<Samu>or could newgrf add more subtypes?
04:55<@Alberth>I think it would need extending openttd at least
04:56<@Alberth>however, what would be useful new subtypes?
04:57<@Alberth>I think current types mostly cover all that flies, at the detail level of openttd
04:58<@Alberth>ie "something that lands vertically", "something that can land anywhere", and "something that needs a long runway"
04:58<@Alberth>what else useful subtype is there?
04:59<__ln__>"saturn v rocket"
04:59<crem>ballistic trajectory "aircrafts"
04:59<__ln__>crem: pls, the plural of "aircraft" is "aircraft"
05:00<__ln__>unless you work in the aviation industry
05:00<crem>is it? wow, so it's not only sheep.
05:01<crem>What if I work in sheep industry? :)
05:04<__ln__>that is unknown, gotta ask a sheep farmer
05:05<@Alberth>paper and wood have that proprty too
05:07<crem>I think paper and wood are diferent as they don't have plural at all, and with sheep and aircraft they do have plural, but it's written as singular.
05:07<Samu>Alberth: just wanted to make sure there weren't any more
05:07<Samu>I'm working on
05:07<Samu>adding the Aircraft Type line into it
05:09<Samu>I'm considering adding "aircraft type" into the sort by criteria
05:09<Samu>must figure it out how to do it
05:10<@Alberth>crem: fair enough
05:11<@Alberth>displaying the type would also be useful, imho
05:12<@Alberth>not sure if it is displayed anywhere
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05:13<crem>It would be indeed. Every time I play openttd (1-2 times per year), I happen to buy an airplane incompartible with the airport.
05:25<Samu>av8 will be displaying aircraft type twice
05:28<Samu>darn strings, always missing
05:29<Samu>adding an item to the dropdown menu affects a great deal of openttd
05:30<Samu>in many places
05:32<Samu>well, the sorter puts helis first, then small planes next, and large planes last
05:32<Samu>is this fine for u?
05:32<Samu>i was expecting small, then large, then heli
05:35<Samu>take a look:
05:52<Samu>looks like i need to come up with a vehicle type sorter
05:52<Samu>one that englobes all vehicles, ships, trains, etc...
05:54<Samu>company aircraft list should have aircraft type sorter
05:54<Samu>but here, the list of criterias must apply to all vehicle types
05:55<Samu>what can I do?
05:56<Samu>how would you sort the type of trains that currently exist
05:56<Samu>the type of road vehicles
05:56<Samu>the type of ships
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05:56<Samu>give me ideas
05:58<@Alberth>you may want a filter instead of a sort
05:58<@Alberth>eg only display helis
06:00<@Alberth>showing a warning that you bought an incompatible aircraft would be helpful too, apparently
06:01<Samu>no, that's not what i mean
06:01<Samu>for example, when listing my trains, and if there was a sort by type, how would it work?
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06:02<Samu>because if I add a sort by type
06:02<Samu>i have to do it as well for the other vehicle types
06:03<Samu>currently the sort by aircraft type is only for purchasing aircraft sorter
06:03<Samu>the purchase window
06:03<Samu>but not on the other windowses
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06:10<Samu>ugh, feels incomplete, but i'm gonna post it
06:12<Samu>i have an idea
06:12<Samu>but for trains it would be weird
06:13<Samu>i can mix a steam with a diesel engine
06:13<Samu>what would be the type of this train'
06:13<Samu>steam or diesel?
06:15<Samu>for road vehicles, the types are bus and lorry
06:15<Samu>but there may be trams
06:16<Samu>for ship vehicles, the types are passenger ferry and freight ship
06:17<Samu>for aircraft, the types are helicopter, small aeroplane and large aeroplane
06:20<Wolf01>Trains are consists. The engine has a type, not the train
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06:21<Samu>what if you sort the trains of a company by type? how would it sort like?
06:21<Samu>there is no "sort by type" at the moment, but imagine that there is
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06:27<@Alberth>you can sort by model
06:27<@Alberth>o/ Wolf01
06:27<Wolf01>Hi hi
06:28<@Alberth>maybe your problems sorting on type are the reason the option doesn't exist?
06:31<Samu>there is no PROP_AIRCRAFT_TYPE damn it
06:31<Samu>what the heck is a callback 36
06:34<Samu>i can't use GetEngineProperty because there is no PROP_AIRCRAFT_TYPE
06:34<Samu>then what can i use
06:35<Samu>do i really have to relly on GetEngineProperty function?
06:37<Samu>looks like not
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07:04<Samu>aircraft type and sort by aircraft type in the purhase aircraft window -> t
07:04<Samu>what u think?
07:05<Samu>aboud the coding, that is
07:05<__ln__>i assume line 13 is too long
07:06<Wolf01>A switch for a single case...
07:06<Wolf01>Just put an assert(this->type == VEH_AIRCRAFT)
07:09<Samu>btw I am re-using the strings that are on liveries
07:09<Samu>3 of them
07:09<Samu>is that ok? or should i create 3 strings that would say exactly the same thign?
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07:15<Samu>the assert isn't needed, apparently
07:15<Samu>at the time that function is called, it already knows it's working with aircraft
07:16<crem>That is exactly what assert is for.
07:16<Samu>GetRange doesn't use assert, it uses switch for a single case too
07:16<Samu>so i just copied
07:17<crem>To check (and show for one who will read the code) the assumption about parameters.
07:17<Samu>uint16 Engine::GetRange() const { switch (this->type) { case VEH_AIRCRAFT: return GetEngineProperty(this->index, PROP_AIRCRAFT_RANGE, this->u.air.max_range); default: NOT_REACHED(); } }
07:18<Samu>it's even worse
07:20<Samu>here's the end result
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07:26<Samu>some newgrfs are now displaying this information twice
07:26<Samu>oh well
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07:38<Samu>oops, lower case problem
07:38<Samu>a tiny bug
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07:53<Wolf01><Samu> the assert isn't needed, apparently <- as crem said, it is to ensure you call it for aircrafts only
07:54<__ln__>*aircraft only
07:54<Wolf01><Samu> GetRange doesn't use assert, it uses switch for a single case too .. <Samu> so i just copied <- not everything is perfect, and it might depend on its usage
08:02<Samu> - Aircraft Type displayed twice
08:02<Samu>what can be done about this?
08:02<Samu>blame it on the NewGRF? blame it on me?
08:04<Samu>i see a whole lot of callback stuff code
08:05<Samu>openttd is reading those lines from the NewGRF, but the code is confusing for me to follow
08:05<Samu>resolve callback scope ...
08:05<Samu>scope resolver
08:05<Samu>can't follow this
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08:46<__ln__>congratulations on your reboot
08:47<crem>how was it?
08:50<SpComb>took about three minutes
08:52<Samu>what can be done about this?
08:53<Wolf01>30s to reconnect + some tries I did with another software (before deciding if it needed another reboot to remove the driver it installed)
08:53<Samu>Aircraft Type is repeated
08:54<Wolf01>Usually a full reboot takes 1m, while a normal boot is around 35s where 12.45s are cause bios slowness
08:58<@Alberth>samu where does it come from?
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09:30<Samu>from newgrf
09:30<Samu>used av8
09:31<Samu>av8 Aviators Aircraft Set version 2.21
09:31<Samu>sorry for taking long to respond, was away
09:39<@Alberth>my guess is, if the type gets printed by openttd itself, the newgrf code will change to not display that information any more
09:39<@Alberth>so newer versions won't have that problem
09:40<Samu>does that mean i have to edit av8 newgrf code or is the openttd newgrf code that I have to edit?
09:42<Samu>hi supermop
09:42<@Alberth>neither, mostly
09:42<@Alberth>someone is maintaining av8
09:43<@Alberth>he/she can make the change after it gets added to openttd
09:44<Wolf01>o/ supermop
09:44<supermop>ok should have time to get roadtypes with trolleybus wire out today
09:45<supermop>at a loss as to how to set the costs though
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09:51<supermop>will need people to playtest for balance
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10:40<Samu>wow, there was a stupid noob bug with v1 of pause running costs patch
10:41<Samu>because of parentheses
10:47<Samu>sorry for whoever downloaded v1, it's bugged
10:47<Samu>v2 is working the way I want, apparently, i'm checking it
10:47<Samu>hopefully it's bug free
11:01<Samu>comparison between 1.6.1 and mine:
11:02<Samu>the entire year 2051
11:05<Samu>@calc 14456378/15881138
11:05<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.910286026102
11:06<crem>0.91 is not a lot.
11:06<supermop>i don't really understand what i need for sidewalks etc
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11:07<Samu>@calc 15881138/14456378
11:07<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.09855580699
11:08<Samu>@calc 15881139/14456378
11:08<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.09855587617
11:08<Samu>about 9.85% better profit
11:08<Samu>it's something
11:10<crem>Profit is something one stops caring about 15 minutes after starting a game.
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11:26<supermop>like how do i say "these are the underlays for ROAD with sidewalks" and "these are the underlays for ROAD without sidewalks"
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12:04<Samu>hmm, i got a question
12:04<Samu>how do I rename a string?
12:04<Samu>inside english.txt
12:04<Samu>let me explain the situation
12:05<Samu>I want to put the aircraft type into it
12:05<Samu>i would re-use the same string, but given how it was named
12:05<Samu>logic would tell me the string itself needs a new name
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12:21<Wolf01> oh, this is nice
12:25<supermop>Wolf01: do roadtypes define sidewalks yet?
12:27<supermop>ah man
12:27<supermop>so if i drew sidewalks on my underlay sprites, they are going to show up everywhere?
12:31<Wolf01> <-
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12:40<supermop>maybe i'll just name asphalt road 'asphalt street' and leave the sidewalk on
12:44<supermop>if i don't set an introdate, the road will just appear with the first vehicle that uses it?
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13:12<Samu>moar aircraft information coming
13:13<Samu>preparing v3
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13:39<Samu>new version posted
13:40<Samu> - Aircraft Type displayed in more places!
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27763 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2017-03-01 19:45:37 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean: 6 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>frisian: 2 changes by Fopper
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian: 5 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:48<Wolf01><supermop> if i don't set an introdate, the road will just appear with the first vehicle that uses it? <- no, it's always available afaik
13:48<Wolf01>Quak frosch123, maybe you can be more precise
13:50<frosch123> <- same as for rails
13:51<Wolf01>Oh, yes, and I was even working on that -_-'''
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13:52<Wolf01>Who knows why I understood a different thing...
13:59<Wolf01>supermop: minecart tram, single minecarts for 1t cargo and high speed
14:00<Wolf01>Maybe even with traps and rolling boulders integrated in the track as overlay... but this is a pony :P
14:00<Samu>are there more places where displaying Aircraft Type would be useful?
14:01<Samu>plz tell
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14:05<andythenorth>forums not much
14:06<Wolf01>What bothers you?
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14:21<supermop_>is there a gpl tramway grf with nice looking sleepers on the rails?
14:22<frosch123>tramway with visible sleepers? isn't that troublesome for the cars?
14:23<supermop_>hah ok sleepers under the rails
14:23<supermop_>'ties' for us americans
14:23<supermop_>frosch123: for when the light rail is not on the road
14:25<frosch123>i would look into narrow gauge stuff
14:25<frosch123>maybe some of that can be used
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14:26<supermop_>yeah, but would require redrawing the curves and Us
14:26<supermop_>so might as well draw my own
14:26<supermop_>which will probably push compiling the grf outside of this afternoon
14:28<andythenorth>supermop_: most of the better tramways don’t show sleepers at all
14:29<supermop_>andythenorth: i need a crappy tramway
14:30<supermop_>hmm CS tramtracks have red brick when on road, but green grass when off road
14:30<supermop_>how can a tramway specify a different overlay when on road?
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14:52<Wolf01>But it's already evening here :o
14:53<Wolf01>We can't play this afternoon :D
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15:16<frosch123>evening is the second afternoon
15:17<frosch123>how else could you have a second dinner?
15:20<andythenorth>fair point
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15:30<supermop_>i am just adjusting the brown tram ballast to light grey in photoshop
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15:35<supermop_>if tramway is on its own, no road, is the tram overlay drawn?
15:36<frosch123>overlay is always drawn, on all tiles in all cases
15:37<frosch123>we could probably add some information in var10 about the context or something
15:37<Samu>HALP, give me suggestions
15:39<supermop_>frosch123: CS tram track manages this in trunk:
15:39<supermop_>tram is providing that red overlay only when on road
15:40<frosch123>it breaks bridges, doesn't it?
15:42<supermop_>sort of, but only because the overlay is kinda wide
15:42<Wolf01>One more thing to try to not break
15:43<supermop_>if the red stopped at the edge of the rails i think it would not 'break'
15:43<supermop_>because the green one looks fine- even if it is a bit odd to plant grass on a bridge
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15:47<Samu>who's a math expert? anyone here expert enough to formulate equations, or formulas? I need your help, here!
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15:55<frosch123> <- added two items to the todo list
15:55<frosch123>but they need more thought
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16:05<supermop_>frosch123: cool
16:05<supermop_>i guess being able to have a graphic switch based on town zone could be useful too?
16:06<frosch123>that already exists
16:07<Samu>hmm channel is busy i see
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16:49<supermop_>'rough tramway' or 'rough light railway' as name
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18:04<Samu>who's a math expert? anyone here expert enough to formulate equations, or formulas? I need your help, here!
18:04<Samu>Wolf01: what kind of formula
18:05<Samu>or equation, or algebra, whatever the term is
18:05<Samu>to make a high value return an exponentially higher value
18:05<Samu>more wagons, exponential cost
18:06<Samu>hmm grr
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18:26<supermop_>nmlc claims there is an unknown token "," at line 84
18:27<supermop_>is it just me or is there no "," at line 84?
18:27<Wolf01>Is the comment on top fully commented?
18:27<Wolf01>You need to // every line
18:29<supermop_>i forgot 'date' before the intro date
18:30<supermop_>wolf its all one line in my nml file
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18:31<supermop_>ill /* */ it but nmlc hasn't complained about that yet
18:36<supermop_>now its complaining abt ground tile templates, but those are the same as from my last grf
18:40<supermop_>AT LINE 442:
18:41<supermop_>unexpected token: "ground_tile"
18:43<Wolf01>Are you sure it doesn't need some ; or ,?
18:44<supermop_>i didnt have any of those in docklands
18:46<supermop_>i could not use those templates i guess
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18:48<supermop_>oooh oops. accidentally had half of the sprite stuff commented out for some reason
18:54<Wolf01>Also you can't use /* */ comments to comment other /* */
18:55<Wolf01>Like /* ...... /* text */ ..... */
18:57<Wolf01>Oh, did you read my suggestion about minecarts? :P
18:58<supermop_>those come next
18:58<supermop_>i pm'd you wip grf
19:00<Wolf01>Let's see what you have done
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19:09<Wolf01>Looks really cool
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19:31<Samu>i'm so bad with formulas
19:34<supermop>Wolf01: does it work? I haven't tried it yet
19:35<supermop>I need lots of thinking to figure out the ratio of costs, dates, speeds, etc
19:36<Wolf01>It seem to work, I didn't try everything
19:36<Samu>think with me plz
19:36<supermop>well I'm back at home now so maybe I can give it a try
19:36<supermop>Samu: I am not good at math
19:37<Wolf01>The only thing which is confusing is that you need to look at the available vehicles before building a roadtype
19:37<supermop>ah hmm
19:37<Samu>how to create an exponential growth formula
19:37<Wolf01>For example andy's HAUL is used only for wood and I keep using it for coal
19:38<supermop>haul is weird because as I recall in early game it only has a wood truck, and in late years it only has a coal truck I think
19:39<Wolf01>Oh, lol, that's really weird
19:39<supermop>maybe more are to come, idk
19:39<Samu>final_cost = cost_at_this_point + cost_at_this_point * length_of_parts_without_cost / (2 * max_train_length);
19:39<Samu>this formula is linear :(
19:39<Samu>how to turn it exponential
19:40<supermop>I don't understand - why is the cost of any part of a train dependent on other parts of the train?
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19:40<Wolf01>Because he thinks it's right
19:40<Samu>because I have no idea
19:41<supermop>the only things I can think of is stuff like if I couple 3 diesel locos together they use 3x the fuel, but still only need one crew
19:41<supermop>but steam locos need 3x the crew and 3x the fuel
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19:42<supermop>plus maybe someone to climb back between the locos to let the other crews know when to syop
19:43<supermop>but that still is basically a linear growth
19:47<supermop>is there enough visual difference between trolleywire types?
19:47<supermop>i still need to add modern catenary
19:50<Wolf01>Trolleywire is broken on half tile roads, btw
19:50<Wolf01>Also wrong offsets
19:51<Wolf01>But it seem nice
19:52<supermop>heh oops
19:52<supermop>well thats the point of testing
19:52<supermop>mine carts could be viable
19:53<supermop>as could log flumes
19:54<Wolf01>Also with very long names I found another UI bug to fix
19:54<supermop>hm I worried about that
19:54<supermop>i need to make the names more concise
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19:58<supermop>whoa these offsets are really bad
20:00<Wolf01>Mmmh, I can't understand why those fillers work in SE but not in normal game
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20:04<supermop>a few road types are missing
20:04<supermop>and towns are somehow building asphalt paved road with speedlimit of 200kmh
20:05<Wolf01>Like in real world
20:05<supermop>instead of ROAD
20:05<Wolf01>ROAD is missing
20:05<supermop>I don't even have a 200kmh road listed in game
20:06<supermop>in nml HWAY is unlimited, but nothing is 200
20:06<Wolf01>Maybe 200 is the max
20:06<supermop>but asphalt road should be limited to 100
20:07<supermop>time to do some investigating
20:07<supermop>as to why ROAD didn't show up
20:08<supermop>also the menu says 99 km/h
20:08<supermop>but ? tool says 200 km/h
20:10<supermop>well the people on forums asking for road speedlimts can be happy now
20:10<supermop>no buses over 200km/h allowed in town centers
20:12<supermop>maybe I should make ROAD type 0
20:14<Wolf01>ROAD is 0
20:15<supermop>dirt road also has a speedlimit of 99 kmh
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20:15<supermop>should be 50
20:15<Wolf01>If you need to reorder them there's the right flag
20:15<Wolf01>Dirt worked for me, 49km/h
20:16<supermop>dirt says 49 in the menu
20:16<supermop>but using ? tool it says 99
20:16<Wolf01>It might be a problem with the tool
20:16<Wolf01>The buses I tried slowed down from 64 to 49
20:17<supermop>ok yeah
20:17<supermop>same here
20:19<supermop>bus works correct with speedlimits
20:20<supermop>tool just seems to show like double the sppedlimit
20:20<Wolf01>Mmmh, I can't understand what the UI doesn't like... for roads it works, for trams no
20:22<supermop>tram test track also works with speedlimits
20:23<supermop>my problem is that the first tram type is missing - rough tram without electric wire
20:24<supermop>so i need to re order so that ROAD and ELRD, and RAIL and ELRL are always 0 and 1?
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20:30<Wolf01>Btw, it's really 199 the speed for road
20:32<Wolf01>The weird thing is that you set 99, debug says 199 and UI says 200
20:36<Wolf01>Which property is the max speed?
20:38<Wolf01>Found it
20:42<Wolf01>Yup, it's somewhat scrambled the loading of roadtypes
20:42<Wolf01>It seem to load ROAD twice
20:45<Flygon>Wait, we have Roadtypes now?
20:45*Flygon out of the loop for a few months @_@
20:46<Wolf01>We are just talking, no roadtypes are even coded
20:46<Flygon>Right. Sorry, figured something was up. :D
20:46<Wolf01>All screenshots you might find are photoshop enhanced
20:47<Wolf01>But we have NotRoadTypes
20:48<Wolf01>And this one seem to work :P
20:48<Wolf01> <-
20:50<Wolf01>Just declare them in the right order and reorder with the property
20:51<Wolf01>It should fix everything
20:54<Wolf01>Fucking oneway button in tramway toolbar... now it works!
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21:13<supermop>what happened to tram toolbar?
21:14<Wolf01>The filler didn't work because there was a one way widget defined
21:14<Wolf01>Tramway doesn't have "one way"
21:15<supermop>hmm 'single track,?
21:15<supermop>the template for the trolley wire sprites was all wrong
21:17<Wolf01>Single track won't happen, there are problems telling curves that they are one way
21:17<supermop>was not really being serious
21:18<Wolf01>But it could be a good pony
21:18<Wolf01>Also, I think I should go to sleep now
21:18<supermop>sounds good
21:18<supermop>have a good night
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