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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-10

---Logopened Fri Mar 10 00:00:18 2017
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03:12<ZirconiumX>I really don't understand why my bus stop code isn't working. Oh well.
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04:26<Samu>question, when i cross a tram piece with a rail piece, a road piece is also built. Is that intended or a bug?
04:26<Samu>1 + 1 = 3 ?
04:28<ZirconiumX>Samu: trains cross with road only.
04:28<ZirconiumX>So you end up building your tram along a road
04:28<ZirconiumX>Thus 1 + 1 = 3
04:32<crem>Crossing of tram and railway are prohibited in most countries. (there are exceptions though).
04:32<crem>So I'd suggest prohibiting that in opentt
04:37<ZirconiumX>Run the tram line along the train line.
04:40<Samu>it's weird
04:41<Samu>feels like something's not right
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04:46<Samu>I was actually working on forbidding rails crossing trams, but i was first investigating how it was working currently
04:47<Samu>was also working on forbidding rails crossing roads too
04:47<crem>Por quê
04:48<Samu>to avoid sabotage
04:48<Samu>just wanted to create a game setting to forbid level crossings between train and road vehicles
04:52<Samu>a tile with rail, road and tram
04:52<Samu>if i try to remove rail, I can
04:52<Samu>if i try to remove tram, I can
04:52<Samu>if i try to remove road, I can't
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04:55<Samu>and if i remove the tram, the road stays
04:55<Samu>this feels wrong
04:56<Samu>like some sort of limitation in openttd
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05:43<Samu>road crossings only store 2 owners?
05:44<@peter1138>It's by design.
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05:51<Samu>i'm mistaken
05:52<Samu>the owner of the tile becomes the owner of the rail
05:52<Samu>it really stores the 3 owners
05:53<Samu>the tile is of type road, though
06:07<Samu> /* Always add road to the roadtypes (can't draw without it) */
06:08<Samu>what kind of drawing
06:09<Samu>openttd or missing graphics
06:09<Samu>openttd code*
06:10<@peter1138>There's no graphic for level crossing without road.
06:37<ZirconiumX>So you add a road as a compromise?
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06:49<@peter1138>Back when it was done, I suppose so.
06:50<ZirconiumX>Fair enough.
06:51<ZirconiumX>Out of curiosity, what base graphics set does everyone use?
06:53<ZirconiumX>Yeah, I think I prefer the original set to be honest.
06:53<ZirconiumX>OpenGFX seems too dark and somewhat cartoony.
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08:02<Samu>im using opengfx
08:31<Samu>when building a road, it still stores the tram owner even if there is no trams available
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09:50<supermop_>hi alberth
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10:08<supermop_>so docklands now has parameters to choose depot style
10:08<supermop_>whether or not it should is a different question
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10:23<supermop_>in testing it i noticed some errors in trolleybi so will try to fix those now
10:24<supermop_>also trollybi are mostly worthless when playing with road hog
10:25<supermop_>the low capacity and difficultly of building the electric road make them only really useful on town outskirts or connecting small villages
10:26<Alberth>you should say "the trollybi and road hog are not well-balanced"
10:26<supermop_>balancing is difficult and maybe not worth it
10:27<Alberth>but trollybi can go where road hogs can't go?
10:27<supermop_>they are designed to be slightly OP compared to regular ogfx buses
10:27<supermop_>but those are also pretty weak
10:27<supermop_>and ogfx is not particularly interesting to test with NRT
10:27<Alberth>I pretty much never play with RVs
10:28<supermop_>usually me neither
10:28<supermop_>the problem is that a trolleybus can go fewer places than a bus or a tram
10:28<supermop_>because electrifying town roads means destroying them
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10:35<supermop_>yo andythenorth
10:36<supermop_>Alberth: its all academic though, as trolleybi just means to show that a trolleybus is possible - it doesn't need to be a good trolleybus
10:36<supermop_>they are not particularly well drawn either
10:37<andythenorth>reports that OpenTTD builds on OS X Sierra....
10:37<andythenorth>….were premature
10:38<Alberth>indeed supermop_, most important part is that the vehicle exists at all
10:39<Alberth>:( andy
10:40<andythenorth>I have used without-lzma and without-liblzo2 configure flags
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10:40<andythenorth>as they aren’t available, or can’t be found in the path
10:42<andythenorth>on the positive side, all the pythons appear to build on this new computer
10:43<Alberth>so you'd need to build the libraries from source then?
10:44<Alberth>pythons became any quicker?
10:44<andythenorth>not sure yet :)
10:47*andythenorth tries building FIRS
10:47<andythenorth>hmm must be failing
10:47<andythenorth>reports a build in 30s, which took 1m 20s on old computer
10:50<Alberth>:o almost 3 times as fast :)
10:52<andythenorth>it’s much faster when the makefile ignores substantial errors :)
10:52<andythenorth>like the non-existence of nml in the path :P
10:58<andythenorth>the new computer is substantially slower than the old one
10:59<andythenorth>that is unsurprising but unwelcome
11:01<andythenorth>2013 i7 2.8Ghz vs 2016 i7 3.3Ghz
11:01<andythenorth>the older i7 is faster
11:04<Alberth>how weird
11:05<Alberth>maybe it's running "economic mode" or so? reducing its own clock-speed
11:06<Alberth>longer battery life, etc etc
11:07<andythenorth>maybe it’s error between keyboard and chair :P
11:08*andythenorth had a substantial framework install running at the same time, with make etc
11:08<andythenorth>still, the new one is slower
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11:08<andythenorth>maybe it has worse single-threaded performance
11:11<Alberth>clock-speed tends to contradict that, unless your memory is slower or something
11:15<andythenorth>it could be performance throttling for thermal reasons
11:15<andythenorth>the OS changed too, so maybe python just got a lot worse on this OS
11:16<Alberth>python doesn't do much OS, unless you do
11:17<Alberth>but file handling isn't likely to be changed much
11:17<Alberth>running installs could hog the disk, slowing things down, though
11:17<Alberth>I notice that too when I run a disk->disk backup copy of all my data
11:18<Samu>is this clear enough english?
11:18<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ALLOW_LEVEL_CROSSINGS_HELPTEXT :Allow company construction of level crossings between rail and road.
11:18<Samu>there is a similar named setting for town level crossings
11:19<Samu>but i want them to behave separately
11:20<andythenorth>ok so there’s some indexing stuff running as this computer is new
11:20<Alberth>I'd add COMPANY in there somewhere, in the name, I think
11:20<andythenorth>that’s 100% of one thread unit gone :P
11:20<Alberth>thread is fine, but it's also accessing disk like crazy :p
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11:21<Samu>that's actually a good idea, chaning name
11:21<Alberth>My OS had something like that too, I said "fine, just don't do /home :)
11:22<Alberth>cured all performance problems with indexers :p
11:23<Alberth>Samu: well, apparently you have a TOWN level crossing setting too, and it makes sense to express that difference in the name of the string
11:24<ZirconiumX>I don't understand this :(
11:24<ZirconiumX>Trying to build a bus stop
11:25<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ALLOW_COMPANY_LEVEL_CROSSINGS :Companies are allowed to build level crossings: {STRING2}
11:25<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ALLOW_COMPANY_LEVEL_CROSSINGS_HELPTEXT :Enabling this setting allows companies to build level crossings
11:25<Samu>basically copy paste, just replaced town to company
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11:26<Samu>this is all grouped so weird in the ini file
11:27<Samu>i'm putting this new setting into construction category
11:27<Samu>but the town version is on economy category
11:27<Alberth>settings are weird anyway
11:29<Samu>muahaha, no moar trains crushing road vehicles
11:32<Alberth>not having RVs solves that problem nicely too :p
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11:39<Samu>if ( {
11:39<Samu>big name
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11:42<Samu>i'm a bit worried about towns expanding, must make sure everything is working as it should
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11:47<Samu>i never know where in the afterload do i put IsSavegameVersionBefore
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11:48<ZirconiumX>I need to work on my bus stop building algorithm
11:48<ZirconiumX>Dear god these look ugly
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11:52<Alberth>ha :)
11:53<Alberth>Samu: after all the other conversions, unless you want to deal with all changes ever done of the thing you're changing
11:55<Samu>there's the "station acceptance is some kind of cache" that doesn't follow that logic
11:55<Samu>and then I'm always unsure if i put after this one, or before this one
11:57<ZirconiumX>Well, this is...Better?
11:58<ZirconiumX>I still need some way of trying to connect this to my network though
11:59<ZirconiumX>I mean
11:59<ZirconiumX>It connects perfectly to the town centre tile
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11:59<Samu>road depot is a road tile
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12:02<ZirconiumX>Check the orientation, though.
12:02<ZirconiumX>It's not going through the road depot
12:06<Samu>I wanna list this setting in the gui, unsure which category
12:06<Samu>Company vs Limitations
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12:08<andythenorth>I had a sort of Obiwan in my timings
12:08<andythenorth>the old computer was 2m 20s, not 1m 20s :P
12:08<andythenorth>definitely a keyboard-chair error
12:09<Alberth>phew :)
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12:13<Samu>I'm gonna put it into Company category, it's the first of its kind that looks like a Limitation
12:13<Samu>what do u thnk?
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12:14<andythenorth>1m 50s on the new one
12:15<andythenorth>@calc 2.8 / 3.3
12:15<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.848484848485
12:15<andythenorth>@calc 110 / 260
12:15<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.423076923077
12:16<andythenorth>@calc 110 / 150
12:16<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.733333333333
12:16<andythenorth>speed up is more than clock speed
12:16<andythenorth>2 generations if i7 and a painfully fast SSD :P
12:16<andythenorth>of / if /s
12:18<Alberth>do you still have a disk-cache? doesn't make much sense with an ssd, perhaps
12:18<Samu>limitations->Add(new SettingEntry("construction.allow_company_level_crossing"));
12:18<Samu>screw it, just added it to Limitations
12:18<andythenorth>I don’t think there’s any cache on the actual disk
12:18<Alberth>likely BSD solved that a long time ago :)
12:19<andythenorth>this disk is fast enough that it hits the end of the bar on the speed tester :P
12:20<Alberth>now you only need a file with useful data that big :p
12:21<Alberth>my first HD did around 40MB/s
12:21<Alberth>it also was 40MB in size :p
12:21<Samu>nice, it werks
12:21<andythenorth>but can I get ottd to compile? :P
12:25<andythenorth>it compiled
12:25<andythenorth>I changed nothing :P
12:30<Alberth>but with old config, without lzma etc?
12:31<Samu> - do u agree with the displayed error?
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12:31<Samu>I'm orange, rail is mine too, and i receive that error
12:32<andythenorth>Alberth: I ran ./configure with no flags, and it built
12:33<andythenorth>does configure reset flags if they’re not specified?
12:33<andythenorth>or do they persist?
12:33<ZirconiumX>Samu: "Can't build road here: You cannot build level crossings."
12:33<ZirconiumX>"Can't build road here: Level crossings are disabled."
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12:34<Samu>there are rail types that actually display that error
12:34<Samu>level crossings are disabled for this rail type
12:34<Samu>something like that
12:34<ZirconiumX>I think "must remove rail first" would confuse people who accidentally set that settings
12:34<Samu>but this error is not derived from the rail type, but a game setting
12:37<Samu>i was hoping i could avoid creating new strings :(
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12:38<Samu> - the other way around, rail on road
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12:43<Samu> - road on competitor rail
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12:47<Samu> - rail on competitor road
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12:49<V453000> :)
12:49<V453000>went a bit insane with wacom :D
12:50<andythenorth>pipes and shit
12:50<andythenorth>= winning
12:50<Samu> - rail on town road - eh.. this message might not be what I was expecting
12:52<V453000>:) how is andycat?
12:52<andythenorth>V453000: pipes disappearing into ground was my favourite tactic of 2016
12:52<andythenorth>also andycat is configuring new computer and not happy
12:53<andythenorth>first Mac I’ve ever owned that feels like nobody really cared when designing
12:53<V453000>got a macbook for wife last week
12:53<V453000>happy with it
12:53<andythenorth>the low-powered one with the clicky keys?
12:53<andythenorth>or the pro?
12:53<V453000>low powered one, she dont need power
12:54<Samu> if (ret.Failed() && (road_owner != OWNER_NONE || road_owner != OWNER_TOWN)) { return ret; } else { return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_MUST_REMOVE_ROAD_FIRST);
12:54<V453000>and yeah keys click
12:54*andythenorth considering buying wife one
12:54<andythenorth>netflix doesn’t need much power
12:54<andythenorth>is it retina screen though?
12:55<andythenorth>looks shiny, but expensive
12:55<V453000> basically this, the cheaper version
12:55<V453000>not cheap yeah, but if it lasts, it's worth it
12:56<andythenorth>my wife is using one from about 2011 or so
12:56<andythenorth>maybe older even
12:56<V453000>wife loves it so far, I want to see how it performs over years
12:56<andythenorth>I have only just replaced a 2013 one, and that was because I dropped it :P
12:56<V453000>I used it for about 2 hours and I am quite convinced that it's good
12:57<andythenorth>I have the clicky keys now, it’s loud
12:59<Samu>oops, it's not ||, it's &&
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13:01<V453000>lest see :) I will stay on wonde
13:01<andythenorth>just install windows
13:01<andythenorth>but then you might as well buy the HP thing
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13:03<Samu> if (ret.Failed() && road_owner < MAX_COMPANIES) { return ret; } else { return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_MUST_REMOVE_ROAD_FIRST); }
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13:03<V453000>im fine with workstation desktops, and for travelling the mobilestudio pro from wacom is amazing for what I need
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13:07*andythenorth biab
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13:10<Samu>building roads over rails in the scenario editor is one of those special rare cases...
13:11<Samu>it builds as either OWNER_TOWN or OWNER_NONE
13:11<Samu>what should hapen?
13:15<Samu>ugh... scenario editor... everything works so randomly
13:15<Samu>i cannot remove rail tracks, but i can remove rail bridges
13:18<Samu>looks like the error i'm looking for is "... area is owned by another company"
13:18<supermop__>ah man
13:18<supermop__>i go to lunch - get disappointing burrito
13:19<supermop__>wife goes to lunch - runs into malia obama
13:19<supermop__>why can't any obamas eat at the crappy chipotle i always end up eating at
13:20<__ln__>hmm, chipotle, one of the places i didn't try although i kind of planned to
13:21<supermop__>i guess it is pretty representative of generic american lunch
13:22<supermop__>if you are trying to get the experience of mundane american life
13:22<__ln__>sure i am
13:22<supermop__>don't get me wrong - i like it -
13:22<__ln__>another place i didn't try was applebee's
13:23<supermop__>but it's not a special experience, and sometimes i wish i didn't eat like 60 meals a year there
13:23<supermop__>better of not having gone to applebees
13:23<supermop__>i mean idk, were you in america doing an anthropological study of suburbs?
13:25<supermop__>V453000: idk how to best use surface+pen for PS work
13:25<__ln__>not per se, but it's nice to visit restaurants that you've seen on tv series, but which do not exist in europe
13:25<supermop__>maybe it was bad choice for that use
13:25<V453000>I only use pen
13:25<V453000>no touch for painting
13:26<V453000>is why the hardware keys are excellent
13:26<supermop__>maybe it is bc i never used pen until this year so i don't understand how to best use it yet
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13:26<__ln__>i did go to ihop and wendy's and taco bell. well okay, taco bell exists in europe, but just barely.
13:31<V453000>depends on your usecase I guess :)
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13:40<supermop_>V453000: it's unclear what the usecase is for that computer, and i dont have a pen for work computer so never learned how to use
13:41<supermop_>idk why interior designers dont use pen for PS as we use it mostly for touching up photos and renderings
13:53<supermop_>i think because the bosses are so stingy
13:54<supermop_>only the graphic designers get tablets
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14:07<andythenorth>so why does it compile then? :P
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14:14<andythenorth>@seen snail
14:14<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 0 hours, 21 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Snail> it did give me a zillion of warning messages, but the game seems to work fine
14:14<andythenorth>I hate non-reproducibility :x
14:14<andythenorth>I am not blanking this computer just to test OS X compile again though
14:16<supermop_>buy yet another computer?
14:18<andythenorth>I could install the OS on an external drive
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14:39<supermop_>hmm need to draw more trolley trucks
14:43<andythenorth>silver train in silver landscape
14:44<andythenorth>and a pumpkin
15:02<andythenorth>such tramz
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15:07<andythenorth>new photoshop :P
15:07<Samu>patch posted -
15:08<Samu>i wonder what the AIs will behave with it
15:08<Samu>how* the AIs
15:09<Samu>ChooChoo will no longer cross roads with rail, muahahaahh, let's see what happens
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15:22<Samu>Wormnest: nice that I find u
15:23<Wormnest>Hi Samu
15:23<Samu>since you're familiar with AIs, how would they behave with a patch like this
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the real question is why trump has not tweeted to stop that to strenthen the car industry
15:27<Wormnest>I guess like all vehicles AI vehicles will try to find another route to their destination
15:27<Wormnest>If you mean if AI would notice and adapt to it probably not
15:28<Wormnest>except to take action when too many vehicles are loosing money
15:28<Samu>Oh, I don't mean that
15:29<Samu>I mean construction of a road over rail disablement
15:29<Samu>or rail over road
15:30<Samu>edited topic for clarity
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15:33<Samu>Companies are allowed to build level crossings
15:33<Samu>enabled or disabled
15:33<Samu>I'm experimenting with Chochoo
15:34<Samu>gah, i hate this CPU evaluator
15:34<Samu>I hope it doesn't make it to 1.7
15:34<Wormnest>Well most AI trying to find a new route will go back a few steps and try again if building doesnt work
15:35<ZirconiumX>Is there any way to increase the frequency of subsidies?
15:35<Wormnest>I don´t think so
15:36<Samu>interesting, choochoo builds bridges over roads
15:37<Samu>that was unexpected
15:37<Samu>nice Wormnest, seems that this might not break that many AIs
15:38<Samu>if i'm not mistaken, choochoo never builds bridges over roads
15:38<frosch123>gs can spawn them
15:39<Samu>I mean, if the road is perpendicular to the track that it's attempting to build, right?
15:40<Wormnest>I´m not an expert on the inner workings of choochoo can´t help you there
15:40<Samu>CPU evaluator breaking ChooChoo again, pff, i can't test this on latest trunk, this evaluator ruins more than it fixes
15:41<Samu>gonna apply it to 1.6.1
15:44<andythenorth>ha ha
15:44*andythenorth got the game music back
15:44<andythenorth>was missing for years
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16:14<supermop_>i'm listening to the SNES Hook soundtrack here
16:17<andythenorth>some SNES games are available on Wii
16:17<andythenorth>as downloads
16:17*andythenorth got original mario kart
16:17<andythenorth>which is as hard as I remember
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16:19<supermop_>andythenorth: snes mario kart is brutal
16:21<supermop_>also most snes games i had
16:21<supermop_>used to rent super strike eagle and never could land back on the carrier so never passed first mission
16:22<supermop_>why an F-15E was landing on a carrier was glossed over for gameplay's sake
16:23<supermop_>original pilotwings also impossible
16:23<andythenorth>was that the flying one where you could have a hang glider or such?
16:24<andythenorth>impossible :P
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>i never had a console
16:24<supermop_>the hang glider missions were the worst
16:25*andythenorth reading about Mode 7
16:26<supermop_>NotMode7 patch for parallax in OpenTTD?
16:26<andythenorth>transforms were fascinating to me in engineering maths
16:27<andythenorth>I can’t use them, my maths is too weak, but they’re very interesting
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16:59<Samu>should towns be able to build bridges over rails?
17:00<Samu>currently, if they're not allowed to build level crossings, they won't expand to the other side
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17:29<Samu>Wormnest: how do you deal with roads with your trains?
17:29<Samu>your AI
17:29<Samu>gotta test
17:31<Samu>so far, only OtviAI behaves erratic
17:32<Samu>but there are so many road AIs to test :(
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17:33<Wormnest>Samu: No idea haven´t looked at it in half a year I would have to look but too tired tonight
17:34<Wormnest>except that I probably try to avoid them
17:34<Wormnest>and build a bridge if I can´t find a better spot
17:37<Samu>I'm quite impressed with what I achieved
17:37<Samu>no single vehicle crashing
17:37<Samu>and 14 AIs fighting each other
17:38<Samu>it used to be a road vehicle crash-fest
17:39<ST2>yeah, that was my old world too ^^
17:39<ST2>but with human players xD
17:39<Samu>hi st2, i guess you're aware by now, I created a patch about rail/road crossings too
17:39<ST2>saw it
17:40<Samu>any improvements needed?
17:40<ST2>I tried same approach 1st too - ofc, only worked if server and client had same patch
17:45<ST2>Samu: saw PM?
17:45<Samu>oh, just noticed
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 11 00:00:19 2017