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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-13

---Logopened Mon Mar 13 00:00:22 2017
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03:26<@peter1138>hmm, where's gradual loading in the settings window?
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03:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27788 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2017-03-13 08:37:05 +0100 )
03:37<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6536]: Get vehicle load amount after executing new cargo trigger.
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04:22<samu>good day
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04:39<samu>this isn't working for me :( have to use
04:39<samu>it's a bit clumsy this one
04:39<samu>anyone having the same problem?
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05:03<@peter1138>No, everyone else uses a proper IRC client.
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05:06<crem>The most proper IRC client is telnet!
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05:15<samu>the size of an intercontinental airport is 9/11... terrible coincidence
05:18<__ln__>what's worse, there are no continents in the game
05:19<@peter1138>Yeah well, we absolutely had to have these giant airports...
05:31<Wolf01> ha!
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05:56<V453000>do you even train?
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06:15<@peter1138>CHOO CHOO
06:16<@peter1138>You tarzan! Me train!
06:20<@peter1138>That's... nice.
06:20<@peter1138>(Stupid microsoft, sending me a 0 byte aspx file to download)
06:21<Wolf01>!AgUFeOGLNNfVhuhopJiEpQMOqtRK0Q this is more related to this chat
06:22<@peter1138>YOu have chosen to open:
06:22<@peter1138>which is: ASP.NET page (0 bytes)
06:22<@peter1138>Yeah sure...
06:22<@peter1138>Oooh trains!
06:22<@peter1138>And scooters.
06:23<LordAro>what is this, *more* peter1138 commits?
06:23<LordAro>what have we done to you
06:23<Wolf01>I have castles, trucks, some starwars, western and space too
06:30<@peter1138>LordAro, careful, you don't want me committing during office hours...
06:31<@peter1138>I've closed off a couple of bugs but really, 805 outstanding is terrible.
06:34<@peter1138>Who's doing the road types work?
06:34<Wolf01>Who knows?
06:34<@peter1138>Wondering if FS#6517 would be catered for.
06:35<Wolf01>Yes, I'm already doing that
06:36<Wolf01>You have to choose the right roadtype with the flag enabled, it isn't wnabled for every roadtype
06:36<Wolf01>HWAY should do it
06:37<@peter1138>Yeah, i figured you'd have a flag on the road type that would solve the "issue"
06:37<@peter1138>If you're doing it, I will add a note to the task
06:46<samu>hey peter1138 what you're working on now? :p
06:51<samu> this bug is related to that one you fixed yesterday, about rail upgrade. just wondering if you noticed it
06:52<samu>instead of rail upgrading with a ship on the tile, it's building a rail with a ship on the tile
06:52<LordAro>peter1138: heh
06:52<LordAro>a significant number of the bug reports are invalid or old
06:52<LordAro>just needs someone to go through them
06:54<@peter1138>I did a couple. It is soul-destroying :)
06:54<LordAro>i'm tempted to volunteer, but...
06:56<@peter1138>Spit it out!
06:57<Wolf01><LordAro> just needs someone to go through them <- andy :P
06:57<@peter1138>What the heck is that and why should we care...
06:58<LordAro>Wolf01: yeah, but he couldn't close any of them
06:58<LordAro>only leave a comment
06:58<Wolf01>Look for andy's comments "this bug could be closed"
06:59<@peter1138>I don't think that's searchable.
06:59<@peter1138>But it should be possible to assign rights.
07:02<LordAro>would it work with the magical auth system though?
07:06<@peter1138>I guess that makes assigning a group harder.
07:06<@peter1138>I have no idea how that all works or who has access to it. Not me certainly.
07:07<LordAro>TB, Rb & frosch?
07:07<Wolf01>I configured the flyspray for my company some time ago
07:07<@peter1138>Yeah, this one is hacked around though.
07:08<Wolf01>But I used the 1.0 beta, or alpha or what it was
07:08<Wolf01>It's slightly different
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07:21<@peter1138> FS#5100 - [OSX] Openttd 1.1.5 on mac os x 10.6.8 crashes when ai starts up < seems out of date :p
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07:39<samu>i'm gathering "end of life" lifetime profit of all aircraft models
07:40<samu>that lifetime profit patch on the forum is awesome
08:11<@peter1138>Hmm, a patch I wrote 4 years ago...
08:12<samu>are you burty on the forum? i was using his patch
08:12<@peter1138>looking at that
08:22<samu>how to balance aircraft hmm :(
08:22<samu>need ideas
08:22<samu>vanilla aircraft* typo
08:30<samu>i'm getting some interesting results for those aircraft past 2012
08:30<samu>introduction date
08:35<ZirconiumX>Devs: if you cast a NULL pointer to a type, is this null dereferencing?
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08:39<@peter1138>Has it been dereferenced?
08:44<ZirconiumX>int * i = (int *)NULL;
08:44<__ln__>is this 1992
08:45<ZirconiumX>I forgot my DeLorean, __ln__
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08:55<Wolf01>Samu, don't even try to over-balance transports in OTTD or you will get Blizzard syndrome
08:56<@peter1138>And then newgrfs come along anyway.
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09:15<V453000>what is blizzard syndrome? :D
09:16<__ln__>ZirconiumX: is that C or C++?
09:17<Wolf01>Balance terrans vs zerg, now are too much powerful against protoss, then balance protoss and zerg, no wait, maybe nerf terrans, buff them again because nerfed too much, but if we change the hydralisk maybe goliaths work better but there are dragoons which are shit then...
09:18<Wolf01>And after 20 years are still trying to balance everything
09:18<__ln__>ZirconiumX: still, even C89 doesn't require explicitly casting NULL at assignment to pointer type.
09:19<ZirconiumX>Strictly speaking, it's not directly that code
09:19<ZirconiumX>But if somebody passes NULL as a parameter, I was wondering if you needed to check for NULL before casting or not
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09:25<@peter1138>Wonder why I overengineered that quick hack patch...
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09:46<samu>screw starccraft, blizzard killed that franchise
09:50<supermop>samu - i thought the point was that people liked to play the old one
09:51<Wolf01>The point is "don't fuck with things when they already work"
09:55<@peter1138>hmm, a patch for fast ships...
09:55<@peter1138>also 4 years old.
09:56<samu>problem was that these aircraft were to go into a 256x256 map
09:56<samu>now maps can go up to 4096x4096 :(
09:57<samu>perhaps a quick "fix" was to limit all vanilla aircraft to 256+256
09:57<samu>range of 512
09:57<@peter1138>newgrf can limit distance
09:59<supermop>samu: what is the point of 'fixing' vanilla anything? other than generating complaints from people?
09:59<supermop>when pikka put range limits into av8 tons of people complained
10:00<samu>oh, i see
10:00<samu>how does range work exactly? must test, brb
10:01<supermop>vanilla stuff should generally be: "this works as much like you remember it did 20 years ago as possible" and is extrapolated to new circumstances in the simplest way
10:02<supermop>i actually wouldn't mind vanilla aircraft having ranges, and i think i've actually argues for that explicitly in the past
10:02<supermop>but too many people will complain - vanilla needs to be all things to all people
10:03<@peter1138>I tend to complain about large maps instead ;p
10:04<supermop>haha yeah - you could argue that most balance issues could be solved by just removing all map sizes other than 256
10:05<samu>oki, screw the range
10:06<samu>aircraft stands stopped in the airport
10:06<samu>i don't quite like it
10:07<samu>i thought it would force a breakdown if the aircraft had traveled x tiles
10:07<@peter1138>that's probably a better way
10:09<supermop>in real life, i generally prefer if the airplane i am going to ride on refuses to take off without enough fuel
10:10<supermop>someone had a patch for RV ranges that worked by dropping reliability beyond range
10:10<supermop>that way you could 'refuel' in depots for long trips
10:12<supermop>the problem is that for most vehicles, maximum ranges are far beyond a typical working journey, so many users would complain if a vehicle had to stop for fuel en route
10:12<supermop>when was the last time you rode a train that ran out of gas? (actually happened to my brother on Amtrak once)
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10:13<__ln__>true, airlines in openttd probably would get FAA approval
10:14<supermop>generally, unless the operator is negligent (like amtrak, or some airlines), a vehicle will always have plenty of range to go farther thn you need it too
10:15<supermop>and many serious and casual players would expect this in game as well, and would find scheduling a bus to stop 3 times for fuel between cities to be a insufferable pain in the ass
10:16<supermop>adding more busy work rarely makes the game fun for casual players using default vehicles
10:17<supermop>and serious players who might want to consider fuel and range will never agree on how many tiles a bus, plane, etc should be able to go
10:17<__ln__>btw, does the openttd ATC still have the same idiots scheduling the planes for landing?
10:18<supermop>there is no ATC, whoever happens to be right in front of the approach when the runway clears gets to go
10:18<samu>I was thinking... normal reliability before 512 range, then plummet it to 0 after travelling that much
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10:19<ZirconiumX>I once sent 300 Concordes to a City airport. Was an interesting experience.
10:19<supermop>so yeah planes stuck in holding would need to start falling out of the sky when they run out
10:19<supermop>samu: that is great idea for a newgrf
10:19<supermop>but for a lot of players, 512 tiles might seem like just the region around one city
10:19<ZirconiumX>Can that be implemented in NewGRF? (Sorry, I don't speak NFO)
10:20<supermop>yes, i believe
10:20<samu>and of course, if breakdowns are disabled, then the aircraft always go full speed
10:20<supermop>i personally expect a 747 to be able to travel halfway around the world
10:20<samu>would only work if breakdowns are at least, reduced
10:21<__ln__>would it ruin everyone's game experience if there was a smarter algorithm scheduling planes for landing?
10:21<supermop>i consider the 'world' bigger than 1024 tiles
10:21<ZirconiumX>OpenTTD's scale is odd in that regard
10:21<supermop>__ln__: no i think that is one of the few areas where nearly everyone would agree on changing default behavior
10:22<ZirconiumX>I think a fairly simple FIFO queue would do okay, since OpenTTD has no concept of vehicle priority.
10:23<__ln__>also permitting starting approach while the previous plane is still on the runway would help a bit
10:24<supermop>ZirconiumX: different ideas about scale are a reason aircraft ranges are controversial
10:25<supermop>everyone seemed to want ranges to reduce power of aircraft, but then everyone had a different expectation for how far an aircraft range should be
10:25<@peter1138>supermop, it's not really "default" behaviour
10:25<supermop>peter1138: correct
10:25<@peter1138>the default airports were fine
10:26<@peter1138>they are obviously small
10:26<@peter1138>the giant airports seem to just suffer as you have tons of planes flying around and the airports are mostly empty
10:26<supermop>peter1138: i always ended up with jammed airports in TTO even
10:26<samu>there's a problem with the profit formula, especially for aircraft, I had this dealt with, it favours axis over diagonals
10:27<ZirconiumX>I think the giant airports need bidirectional takeoff/landing
10:27<supermop>anc concordes skipping the line
10:27<supermop>samu: i don't really see it as a problem
10:28<ZirconiumX>The profit formula is Manhattan distance, right?
10:28<samu>instead of DistanceManhattan, i used DistanceMaxManhattan / 2 with a patch
10:28<supermop>ZirconiumX: i dont know if that would change much, in game we end up with planes spending more time taxiing than at the gate
10:29<supermop>so the runways are always jammed even if only one plane is actually loading
10:29<samu>well, it had the biggest impact on aircraft
10:29<ZirconiumX>So travelling diagonally should be, what, 2x profit for sqrt(2) more running time?
10:29<samu>road vehicles however, suffer from this fix
10:30<Wolf01>Make airplanes load slowly
10:30<@peter1138>samu, so you just halfed it. Doesn't seem to solve anything.
10:30<supermop>Wolf01: yeah
10:30<supermop>plane stays at a gate longer than a bus at a bus stop in real life
10:30<Wolf01>Usually, yes
10:31<supermop>although then we'll get a newgrf for metro style planes with 20 doors down the side and standing room only onboard
10:31<Wolf01>Just pre-load people on containers
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10:32<@peter1138>Cargo type: Slaves.
10:32<Wolf01>Intermodal containers, so you can just move them to buses
10:32<Wolf01>Hi Alberth
10:32<@Alberth>hi hi
10:33<samu>peter1138: i can't remember details, but when i was working on a formula for the cargo payment
10:34<samu>i came to see that openTTD already had a function that would achieve the same results
10:34<samu>but i had to divide the result / 2
10:35<samu>instead of creating a formula of my own, i merelly used DistanceMaxManhattan instead
10:36<samu>it would be a repeat of it, except that I was already doing /2
10:36<samu>let me find my patch
10:37<samu> - last post of that topic
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10:49<samu>DistanceManhattan(source, dest)
10:49<samu>DistanceMaxPlusManhattan(source, dest) / 2
10:53<samu>must investigate code regarding "Range" feature for aircraft, brb
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11:01<supermop>good to see Andy on the warpath lobbying for more NRT newgrfs
11:07<Wolf01>I should look at the possibility to check the number of roadtypes directly on the grf window, so if you add too many roadtypes and you apply or close the window it should tell you that before you start a new game
11:07<Wolf01>Maybe for railtypes too
11:09<supermop>hmm what if the new game window had a little list of types
11:10<supermop>for you could see, these are the 15 types you will get if you start the game?
11:10<Wolf01>It should be done for everything, even for newstations or newobjects
11:11<@Alberth>newgrf may change its list depending on eg mapsize or climate or something
11:12<@Alberth>so you'd need to re-initialize on every change in the newgame window, I guess
11:12<Wolf01>It should be done by loading grfs before generating the map, then you could have a preview of what you actually get in the game... the problem is the re-initialization
11:23<samu>is there a current flight time property on aircraft?
11:23<samu>there's a current order time, which isn't exactly the same thing
11:24<Wolf01>Why not?
11:24<samu>i can have it stopped inside a depot
11:24<samu>this time still increases
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11:46<supermop>maybe they left the engines on in the hangar
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13:01<samu>i need a cache
13:01<samu>aircraft cache
13:02<samu>not sure where to start
13:11<@Alberth>build a large shed
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13:31<samu>if (this->state == FLYING) this->acache.current_flight_time++;
13:31<samu>i'm getting somewhere
13:32<samu>storing flight time in ticks, how large does it need to be?
13:33<samu>uint16 current_flight_time; ///< Current flight time since last takeoff.
13:33<samu>is uint16 enough?
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13:38<@peter1138>Why a cache? What happens when you load a savegame?
13:38<@peter1138>What happens if it overflows?
13:39<samu>needs savegame conversion
13:39<samu>needs to keep track of the current flight time
13:39<@peter1138>Caches aren't stored.
13:39<samu>ohrly? :(
13:39<samu>what can i do then
13:39<@peter1138>That's the point of them, they cache values that can be recalculated.
13:41<@peter1138>Well you can simply put your variable inside the Aircraft class.
13:45<supermop_>so my parents ended up with $4000 in delta vouchers this weekend after getting repeatedly bumped from oversold flights
13:46<samu>tick_counter is in byte
13:47<samu>current_flight_time will be stored in byte too
13:47<samu>how many ticks can there be in a byte
13:48<@peter1138>A whole byte!?
13:48<@peter1138>That's 3.5 days of travelling.
13:49<@peter1138>Game days.
13:49<samu>woah? :(
13:49<samu>what is the tick_counter counting after all?
13:51<samu>tick counter counts to 255, then what happens? i dont get it
13:52<Wolf01>3.5 days
13:52<samu>how is the game able to store vehicle age
13:52<Wolf01>Who knows
13:52<Wolf01>Maybe it does a subtraction
13:55<@peter1138>age is not stored with the tick_counter.
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14:03<samu>what is the first year of openttd and the last year of openttd
14:03<samu>how to store the tick difference between absolute minimum year and absolute maximum
14:04<samu>looking at the worst case scenario
14:09<ZirconiumX>Let's start a game in 200 BC and simulate the roman empire's transportation network :p
14:09<samu>well, since i'm changing the breakdown functions slightly to accomodate for this flight time, how long does it take for a vehicle to breakdown with reliability at 100%, best scenario
14:09<Wolf01>With NRT should be easier now
14:10<@planetmaker>samu: it's a probability... so at best it never breaks down. At worst it immediately breaks down
14:10<+glx>100% reliability should not breakdown
14:10<samu>yes, but it decays
14:11<samu>reliability can only go down
14:12<+glx>no it goes up when you visit a depot
14:12<samu>aircraft is in flight, the counter only acts when it's flying, it can't head to depot
14:13<samu>when it lands, counter is reseted
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14:16<samu>perhaps i don't have to store in ticks
14:16<samu>let me check this better
14:16<samu>i can maybe store in days
14:18<samu>CheckVehicleBreakdown(Vehicle *v) is on daily
14:18<ZirconiumX>A wild planetmaker appears.
14:19<samu>Vehicle::HandleBreakdown() is every tick, but refers to those on daily values
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14:19<samu>so.. ya i can store flight time in days
14:20<Zuu>Hmm CluelessPlus likes valuators too much. :-)
14:20<ZirconiumX>Have you used a valuator to sort your valuators by their valuation capability?
14:20<Zuu>Though so far I have only had it get killed in HQ construction by new OpenTTD version.
14:21<Zuu>This case was a nested valuator call.
14:22<@planetmaker>oh, and a Zuu appears, too :)
14:22<Zuu>Hello planetmaker :-)
14:23<@planetmaker>I should say 'hi everyone' :)
14:23<Zuu>That's how to sumon me, break my AI :-p
14:23<@peter1138>Who what?
14:24<Zuu>Although what first grabbed my attention was trying out RATT.
14:24<@planetmaker>that's another AI?
14:25<Zuu>That's andys new ponnie or so.
14:25<Zuu>Road types.
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14:28<@planetmaker>oh, I thought that's called NRT :)
14:28<Zuu>It says RATT on the forum I think.
14:35<frosch123>hmm, when did i start a ottd server the last time?
14:35<frosch123>somehow i am no longer able to start a local server and client on the same machine
14:36<frosch123>but the last os upgrade is like 2 years ago :p
14:37<@peter1138>"Looking for the Perfect Mother's Day Gift?"
14:37<@peter1138>Yeah, no, that'd be pointless.
14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27789 /trunk/src/lang (greek.txt polish.txt) (2017-03-13 19:45:37 +0100 )
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
14:45<@DorpsGek>polish: 3 changes by wojteks86
14:45<@DorpsGek>greek: 1 change by kyrm
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14:57<frosch123>ah, apparently i configured a compeltely different port the last time i started an ottd server
15:00<ZirconiumX>Hate to ask a dumb question, but why does a dedicated server need a graphics set?
15:01<frosch123>because the original mapgenerator needs it, and noone removed the requirement when not using the original mapgen
15:03<ZirconiumX>IOW for legacy reasons
15:03<frosch123>the is a NoGRF baseset btw
15:03<frosch123>it has all empty sprites except for mapgen
15:04<frosch123>* NoGFX
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15:16<ZirconiumX>frosch123: This?
15:16-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
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15:17<frosch123>ZirconiumX: possibly
15:17<frosch123>i don't think i ever used it myself
15:17<ZirconiumX>I admire your confidence?
15:19<frosch123> <- there is a tar, maybe it works
15:19<frosch123>though it's still pretty big with 270 kib
15:19<frosch123>maybe it was never "finished"
15:21<@planetmaker>I think it worked
15:21<@planetmaker>maybe it even is still generated from opengfx builds... it's not like it needs to follow sprite additions at all
15:22<ZirconiumX>It seems to work, yeah
15:22<andythenorth>such everything
15:23<ZirconiumX>Of course, the bad news is that OpenTTD's multiplayer version matching is annoying if fail-safe.
15:23<frosch123>andythenorth: i made a mistake, i increased the newgrf limit by 4
15:23<andythenorth>that’s probably enough tbh
15:24<ZirconiumX>Turns out the dedicated server I built has a server version of jgrpp-0.17.2-4, which is enough to not match jgrpp-0.17.2
15:24<frosch123>it likely was enough before :p
15:24<andythenorth>64k is enough for everyone
15:24<ZirconiumX>Does BaNaNaS even have 64k newgrfs?
15:25<andythenorth>child #1 suggested a new disasters framework
15:25<andythenorth>‘factories should catch fire very rarely'
15:25<andythenorth>‘and a plane could crash into the factory'
15:25<andythenorth>‘orchads could set on fire'
15:25<andythenorth>‘then you could have a fire truck'
15:26*ZirconiumX concludes the openttd fandom is full of pyromaniacs.
15:26*andythenorth just leaves that there
15:26<andythenorth>I’ve hidden the matches at home
15:27<supermop_>and the apple trees too?
15:27<frosch123>ZirconiumX: the master server knows about 4300 newgrfs, which are all newgrfs and their versions which have been active in some public game once
15:27<ZirconiumX>So 64k newgrfs don't even *exist* yet.
15:27<supermop_>or they exist but have not been released?
15:27<@planetmaker>it's like concluding "there are no pink elephants" - just because you haven't seen one
15:28<frosch123>you can likely add a few thousands by starting a public server with every firs revision
15:28<@planetmaker>lol @ frosch :)
15:28<frosch123>more firs revisions than grfs in total?
15:28<frosch123>oh year, r5348
15:28<frosch123>achieved long ago
15:29<frosch123>only 130 firs versions known by the master server
15:31<Wolf01>Mr. cat o/
15:31<Wolf01>Quak too
15:32<frosch123>mr lego
15:33<andythenorth>I think there’s a fair chance I might be able to get FIRS rev higher than ottd rev
15:33<andythenorth>without even cheating
15:34<frosch123>i am still confident you won't exhaust the md5sum check
15:34<andythenorth>what’s the ottd rev currently? o_O
15:35<andythenorth>@calc 27789 / 5348
15:35<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 5.19614809274
15:35<frosch123>dorpsgek announces it every now and then
15:35<andythenorth>ottd probably gets slightly more translation commits
15:36<andythenorth>that’s not in my favour
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15:40<ZirconiumX>To be fair, OpenTTD has had something of a head start
15:41<frosch123>in revision numbers?
15:41<ZirconiumX>What's the average commits per day, actually?
15:41<ZirconiumX>It's been around longer
15:41<frosch123>possibly less than twice as long as firs
15:42<andythenorth>FIRS is 2008 in concept
15:42<andythenorth>repo might be 2009
15:42<frosch123>yes, firs repo is 2009
15:42<frosch123>created by foobar
15:42<frosch123>ottd is 2004
15:43<andythenorth>and yet FIRS still seems new to me :P
15:43<ZirconiumX>@calc 27789 / (13*365)
15:43<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 5.8564805058
15:44<@peter1138>Hmm, how does determine duplicates (ipv4/ipv6)?
15:44<ZirconiumX>@calc (30000-27789)/5.86
15:44<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 377.303754266
15:44<frosch123>ZirconiumX: you should rather go by only last 24 months
15:44<@peter1138>Does it simply have more information than available to clients?
15:46<ZirconiumX>frosch123: I don't know what the revision was this time two years ago.
15:46<frosch123>peter1138: there seems to be some session key which ottd gets from the master
15:46<frosch123>and which it then uses for advertising
15:47<frosch123>ZirconiumX: 1.5 was branched in r27191
15:48<ZirconiumX>@calc (27789-27191)/(365*2)
15:48<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 0.819178082192
15:48<frosch123>firs was at about r4100 at that time
15:48<ZirconiumX>Conclusion: last two years have been very slow.
15:49<frosch123>not you can extrapolate the intersection point
15:49<frosch123>so that andy can tell his bank about his retirement plant
15:50<andythenorth>don’t let the secret out
15:50<andythenorth>everyone will want to copy it
15:53<ZirconiumX>@calc 5348-4100
15:53<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 1248
15:53<ZirconiumX>@calc 1248/(365*2)
15:53<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 1.7095890411
15:55<ZirconiumX>@calc 2244100/89
15:55<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 25214.6067416
15:55<ZirconiumX>Retirement plans is pretty accurate
15:55<ZirconiumX>@calc 25214/365
15:55<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 69.0794520548
15:55<ZirconiumX>69 years!
15:57<ZirconiumX>I think the OpenTTD team won't have to worry about FIRS for a while.
15:59<@peter1138>Hmm, all these old patches. I'm not sure why I keep them.
15:59<LordAro>peter1138: how else would you maintain your reputation?
15:59<andythenorth>peter1138: “they’ll be useful one day”
15:59<andythenorth>“they don’t make them like that any more"
15:59<ZirconiumX>How badly does it break if you fast forward them?
15:59<andythenorth>“that one has sentimental value"
16:00<andythenorth>“I got that one as a bargain"
16:00<ZirconiumX>Make a quilt with them
16:00<andythenorth>ZirconiumX: 69 years before I surpass Openttd? o_O
16:00*andythenorth likes a challenge
16:01<frosch123>peter1138: i guess the actual question about the duplicate client list entries is: which one should it prefer?
16:02<frosch123>has your ipv6 connection better latency than your ipv4 one?
16:02<@peter1138>In theory it doesn't matter.
16:03<ZirconiumX>In theory, theory and practice align perfectly. In practice, they are nothing alike.
16:04<@peter1138>Hmm, bridges over stations...
16:04<@peter1138>r9829 ;(
16:04<frosch123>i think the bits are still free
16:04<frosch123>mhl moved them, so they may even be free for all tiletypes now
16:04<@peter1138>Yeah but who'd want it?
16:05<ZirconiumX>... I would
16:05<@peter1138>Especially not so close to a release :)
16:05<frosch123>bridges over industries and such
16:05<frosch123>well, the pillars look stupid anyway in the middle of a industry building
16:05<ZirconiumX>Perfect time to get it in trunk then.
16:05<frosch123>peter1138: request inclusion in a patch pack
16:06<frosch123>though possibly cirdan has that
16:06<@peter1138>aww yeah
16:06<@peter1138>those glitches
16:07<ZirconiumX>Is that for the original code?
16:07<andythenorth>good luck bridging over the silo
16:07<Wolf01>Bridges over bridges
16:07<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
16:07<andythenorth>lego such?
16:07<ZirconiumX>Bridges over bridges over bridges
16:08<@peter1138>andythenorth, the patch included newgrf spec to set min height
16:08<supermop_>bridges under tunnels
16:09<andythenorth>peter1138: that assumes station author has done something ‘properly’? o_O
16:09<andythenorth>tunnels under tunnels
16:09<@peter1138>not really, it just disallows it for any custom station unless it's specced
16:09<andythenorth>oic :)
16:09<andythenorth>how rare and clever
16:11<Wolf01> andythenorth
16:11<@peter1138>persistent action 6...
16:11<@peter1138>I wonder what that ever fixed...
16:12<frosch123>action6 with "add". the worst invention ever
16:12<frosch123>is there still that incremental-delta example in the specs?
16:13<frosch123> <- yeah, it is
16:13<@planetmaker>can't we simply remove action6? :P
16:13<supermop_>andythenorth: nice cuban depot / emus in yesterday's pic
16:13<frosch123>planetmaker: no, it's a core part of nml
16:13<frosch123>we just do not use the "add" part
16:13<frosch123>since that does not help anyone
16:14<@planetmaker>I guess I have to understand what you mean with 'add part'
16:14<@peter1138>I have no idea what any of that does...
16:14<frosch123>peter1138: it was applied, or some revised version of it
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16:16<@peter1138>applied in 2008. r14102.
16:16<@peter1138>Worth keeping the patch then.
16:17<frosch123>planetmaker: do you have a non-dcf77 clock?
16:18<@planetmaker>non-dcf77... you mean w/o wifi receiver? Yes
16:18<frosch123>next time you switch timezones, you should start a hand-written letter whether in which direction you started it last. never try to set your clock relative to a dcf one
16:19<andythenorth>Wolf01: much space eh
16:19<andythenorth>this I like
16:20<Wolf01>Yeah, we are aiming at the biggest stand next year :P
16:20<frosch123> <- i blame peter for browsing old forums
16:21<frosch123>but i like the formatting
16:21<+michi_cc>So apparently only our CF has VS2010 left, I guess it will have to do as a compile test... :p
16:21<andythenorth>dalestan is missed
16:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r27790 /trunk/projects (4 files) (2017-03-13 21:21:40 +0100 )
16:21<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6366]: [Win32] Mark OpenTTD as DPI-aware to avoid OS window scaling that breaks mouse input.
16:22<Wolf01><andythenorth> dalestan is missed <- +1, he was rude at the right point :D
16:23<frosch123>michi_cc: i thought the farm uses 2012
16:24<+michi_cc>frosch123: We don't even have project files for 2012 :)
16:25<@planetmaker>ui, sounds like a most welcome commit @ michi
16:25<Arveen>oh nice @ dpi patch
16:26*andythenorth is just hoping for persistent action 6 in 1.7.x
16:26<andythenorth>I have NFI what action 6 does
16:26<andythenorth>but if it’s GRM, then I’m staying away :P
16:26<@peter1138>It was... fun.
16:26<frosch123>i kind of miss the commits with "-Feature: [NewGRF] Feature 0x08 property 0x20"
16:27<@peter1138>Oh yes.
16:27<andythenorth>oh is action 6 how ‘if’ works in nml? o_O
16:27<@peter1138>Is there much left unimplemented?
16:27<andythenorth>station spec needs unimplemented
16:27<+michi_cc>andythenorth: I think that is Action 7 and 9.
16:27<@planetmaker>not really. Everything which makes sense is there
16:27<andythenorth>it would be a service to all to delete station sped
16:27<andythenorth>spec *
16:28<@peter1138>... no
16:28<@peter1138>i spent years on that
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16:28<supermop_>what is necessary in patching nml to work with stations?
16:28<andythenorth>agreeing a new spec :P
16:29<andythenorth>and that takes 10 years or so
16:29<frosch123>the spec is done
16:29<andythenorth>that’s the hard part
16:29<andythenorth>can I fund the rest on
16:30<frosch123>supermop_: <- just implement that :)
16:30<@peter1138>hehheh opengl blitter
16:31<andythenorth>I think Hirundo works for me :P
16:31<+michi_cc>peter1138: Complete for me? :p
16:31<andythenorth>he writes in same style as someone I know
16:31<@peter1138>that looks more recent than mine
16:31<frosch123> <- i remember that post, funny it got no responses
16:32<frosch123>everyone must have been shocked about "new (map array)" vs. "(new map) array"
16:32<andythenorth>ha ha
16:33<+michi_cc>frosch123: Anyway to get the exe from the Bamboo Testing target? I'd like to check if the DPI setting is actually present. Or do I have to wait until tomorrow?
16:33<@peter1138>michi_cc, does it actually work? (opengl)
16:33<frosch123>michi_cc: yes, i think so
16:34<+michi_cc>peter1138: Yes, but I only implemented to platform specific code for windows. It's not an OpenGL *blitter* though, more like a video driver.
16:34<@peter1138>using opengl as a surface?
16:36<+michi_cc>Yeah, a 32bpp texture and an 8bpp texture, with shader code doing the palette animation. What's missing is an accompanying 40bpp blitter that doesn't do any palette stuff like our 32bpp blitter.
16:37<+michi_cc>Oh, and an accelerated mouse cursor :)
16:43<frosch123>hmm, i found the binary, but no idea how to get it out of there
16:44<frosch123>michi_cc: we can start a nightly now though
16:45<frosch123>would take 30 minutes, if you still want it then
16:51<+michi_cc>frosch123: I started one. One more closed FS entry in 30 min hopefully.
16:55<@peter1138>heh, fs#6217 < this savegame crashes... erm, not any more it doesn't...
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16:59<andythenorth>flyspray tends towards ‘wrong!’ quite often :)
16:59<andythenorth>“can’t, won’t, or shouldn’t fix” should be options :P
17:00<frosch123>i closed about 20 tasks on saturday with similar reason
17:00<argoneus_>good evening train friends
17:00<frosch123>though some were just forgotten to be closed after they were fixed :p
17:00-!-argoneus_ is now known as argoneus
17:00<andythenorth>there were a bunch I commented on because they looked not useful
17:00<andythenorth>but then I got bored :P
17:01<andythenorth>“won’t fix” is the traditional passive aggressive wording in most bug trackers I’ve seen
17:01<@peter1138>FS#6032 - still crashes
17:01<frosch123>andythenorth: you made the mistake to look at feature requests
17:01<frosch123>you need to filter them out
17:01<andythenorth>but maybe it should be more nuanced: ‘no repro’, ‘we lack the skills’, ‘demoralising’, ‘requires expensive hardware'
17:02<@peter1138>Same error as well, heh.
17:02<andythenorth>‘really nobody uses that platform any more, if ever’
17:02<frosch123>andythenorth: there are like 20 reasons to close tasks :)
17:02<frosch123>not reproducible, won't fix, not a bug, in known-bugs.txt, ...
17:02<frosch123>plenty of reasons already exist
17:03<@peter1138> Crash at: Sun Jun 01 12:39:03 2014
17:03<@peter1138>Same line of code even, nice.
17:03<andythenorth>frosch123: I don’t have rights to see the drop down for reasons :) Which is probably best all round :P
17:03<@peter1138>Yeah, we ought to have a bug-tidy-up group if possible.
17:03-!-iSoSyS [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03<ZirconiumX>Most bugs would come under that
17:04<@peter1138>I can see how to create the group in flyspray but I guess assigning it to users is not simple with the funky login stuff we have.
17:04<andythenorth>some bugs are fun ZirconiumX :)
17:04-!-supermop_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04<andythenorth>like hard to trigger ones
17:04<ZirconiumX>Thus most
17:04<andythenorth>or amusing obiwans
17:04<supermop>more evangelizing for nrt by andythenorth in forums
17:04<ZirconiumX>Are there any bugs in OpenTTD that the devs chose to keep in for amusement?
17:04<andythenorth> can be closed
17:05<@peter1138>ZirconiumX, they're called features.
17:05<@peter1138>andythenorth, why can it be closed?
17:05<andythenorth>this is done
17:05<andythenorth>peter1138: because it’s bollocks :)
17:06<andythenorth>frosch123: lacks ‘demoralising’ :)
17:06*andythenorth clicks the actual proper ‘request closure’ button
17:06<@peter1138>Is there a way to load a game paused?
17:07<frosch123>i usually queue F1 while it is loading
17:07<@peter1138>Ah yeah
17:08<ZirconiumX>The screenshot glitching is a nice effect
17:08<ZirconiumX>Like an old TV screen with bad signal
17:09<ZirconiumX>Also the log says he's running on a 486!
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17:12<frosch123>andythenorth: is 6542 demoralising enough?
17:14<andythenorth>I think so
17:15<andythenorth>ha such feature
17:16<@peter1138>Ah "faster" without actually doing any profiling...
17:16<frosch123>andythenorth: i gave you access to the event log
17:17<frosch123>that level allows you to close your own tasks
17:18<@peter1138>But not others?
17:18<frosch123>depends on what fs means with "own"
17:18<frosch123>created or assigned
17:18<ZirconiumX>Can we close some tasks as out of date? I don't think we need to worry about bugs in 0.4.7.
17:18<frosch123>ZirconiumX: that is a silly approach
17:19<frosch123>if you want an empty list, just enable the filter
17:19*andythenorth trying to figure out the UI :P
17:19<@peter1138>bug in trunk. which version is that? :D
17:19<andythenorth>so I should be able to close that? ^^
17:19<@peter1138>andythenorth, it is closed.
17:19<+michi_cc>Okay, that was a failure. VS2010 happily eats the project file, but completely ignores the option. Guess I have to remember if I saved a VS2010 install ISO somewhere...
17:19<@peter1138>andythenorth, oh no, sorry, just requested.
17:21<frosch123>andythenorth: there should be "close task" - "assign to me" - "edit this" task buttons
17:21<frosch123>you could experiment with "assign to me" if "close" does not work
17:21<frosch123>then we know what fs means with "own tasks"
17:23<andythenorth>frosch123: only ‘assign to me’
17:23<frosch123>try that
17:23<andythenorth>ok, that seems to work
17:23<frosch123>and then close?
17:23<andythenorth>all tasks I opened are now closed :)
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17:24<frosch123>don't dare open new ones?
17:25<andythenorth>ha turns out I can close any now
17:25<andythenorth>I’d better not eh
17:26<frosch123>yeah, now we know what "own" means
17:26<andythenorth>it’s a funny bug tracker, FS
17:26<andythenorth>like trac, but without the charm
17:27<andythenorth>but on the plus side, more colourful
17:32<andythenorth>so tempting to close some of these
17:32<frosch123>just ignore feature requests
17:33<frosch123>their only purpose is to not spam the bugs
17:33<andythenorth>I’l filter them out
17:34<frosch123>i already checked the bugs in saturday, the rest is valid to some extend :)
17:34<frosch123>i did not check patches
17:34<andythenorth>lots of patches
17:34<andythenorth>160 or so
17:34<andythenorth>patches seem unfair to close :)
17:35<andythenorth>someone put work in, even if the idea is no net gain for the game
17:35<frosch123>some are on the todo list :p
17:35<frosch123>just noone was interested in fixing the whitespace
17:35<andythenorth>BoekaBart sea patch :D
17:36<andythenorth>what does high sea level actually do?
17:36<frosch123>at that time it was for tunnel under sea
17:36<andythenorth>so alt-chunnel
17:36<andythenorth>I thought these got applied? o_O
17:37<@peter1138> < wonder why the first letter is on grey
17:38<andythenorth>interesting spot
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17:39<frosch123>is it the multi-key-press input method?
17:41<andythenorth>is there any benefit to closing FS patch issues?
17:41<andythenorth>other than pissing off someone who tried to contribute?
17:41<andythenorth>and tidying the house?
17:41<@peter1138>i'm only going through bugs at the moment
17:42<frosch123>it's ok, if it is implemented :)
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>why do i get "invalid page request" when clicking on that last link?
17:43<andythenorth>remove the trailing /
17:45<andythenorth> <- OS X users should get same bug support as Apple gives, ~2 versions behind current major release :P
17:45<andythenorth>we’re on 10.12, 10.6.8 is way dead
17:45<@peter1138>Does it crash on 10.12 though? :p
17:45<andythenorth>‘not for me'
17:46<andythenorth>hard to prove a negative eh
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>but what about big endian apples?
17:46<@peter1138>10.6 didn't support ppc
17:47<@peter1138> also it says 80486.
17:47<@peter1138>all the mac ones say 80486 hah
17:47<andythenorth>oh endian-ness is from gulliver’s travels
17:47*andythenorth schoold day
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>but that was egg-endianness?
17:48<Zuu>andythenorth: You can logout/login to FS to get the smiley whenever you like to see it. :-)
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17:49<frosch>peter1138: indeed, the grey background is the ime selection
17:50<frosch>so i guess the user pressed something to start that
17:50<@peter1138>i don't know how to do that :D
17:50<frosch>though the cursor is at the end
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17:50<frosch>i thought they had some kind of relation
17:51<frosch>peter1138: only osx and windows currently
17:51<frosch>the rest is sdl2 or so :)
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>if you say "sdl2" often enough, you summon someone who implements it?
17:52<frosch>i can't decide whether to say "sdl2" or "harfbuzz" more often
17:52<LordAro>alberth already left
17:54<@peter1138>yeah, didn't someone already work on sdl2?
17:54-!-Maarten [] has quit [Quit: Erection reset by beer]
17:54<andythenorth>there’s a forum post :P
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17:55<frosch>he only said that sdl2 was slower for simutrans
17:56<@planetmaker>lordaro did some sdl2 stuff once, didn't he?
17:56<frosch>we definitely tried to shovel it onto him
17:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r27791 /trunk/projects (3 files) (2017-03-13 22:56:38 +0100 )
17:56<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r27790) [FS#6366]: Try #2. Now also for Visual Studio 2010.
17:56<frosch>but i cannot remember who started
17:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r27792 trunk/.gitignore (2017-03-13 22:56:41 +0100 )
17:56<@DorpsGek>-Add: [Win32] .gitignore for IntelliSense database of VS2015 Update 2.
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17:57<LordAro>planetmaker: i tried, but ultimately alberth finished the freerct sdl2 implementation
17:57<frosch>oi, so albert has sdl2 experience :o
17:58<andythenorth>so many OS X bugs
17:58<ZirconiumX>Poor guy
17:59<andythenorth>OS X isn’t officially supported, close them? :P
17:59<andythenorth>also, they don’t happen to me, so eh
17:59<frosch>andythenorth: <- question is, how many osx bugs would be fixed by that
17:59<andythenorth>dunno :)
18:00<andythenorth>most of them look like either random crashes, or requests to support very dead versions of OS X
18:00<+michi_cc>andythenorth: FS#6380 got applied (more or less), but I hoped to get some confirmation that is actually did something.
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18:00<@peter1138>Some of those bugs are so old they were not very dead versions (merely dead)
18:00<andythenorth>wiki says OS X is supported, openttd page says not
18:00<andythenorth>schrodinger’s support
18:02<frosch>you can only get support if it works?
18:02<andythenorth>michi_cc: I can’t test 6380, I have skipped over El Capitan to Sierra
18:03<+michi_cc>That would do it as well I guess. 6380 is about SDK changes, and I can't imagine Apple reverting these changes for Sierra.
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18:03<andythenorth>FWIW, I can build on Sierra
18:04<Wolf01>-Add: [Win32] .gitignore for IntelliSense database of VS2015 Update 2. <- thank you michi_cc ;)
18:04<andythenorth>I installed a handful of packages via brew, and can now use ../configure without any flags
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18:08<andythenorth>this is just player settings
18:08<andythenorth>forbidding 90 degree turns breaks ship routing
18:08<andythenorth>player shouldn’t use that setting
18:09<+michi_cc>Wolf01: I only noticed because I used a different clone now. I added the files to .git/info/excludes in my regular work dir and apparently completely forgot about it :)
18:09<Wolf01>I wanted to push it to NRT, but it wasn't the right place and then I totally forgot about that
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18:11<andythenorth>hmm, more OS X bugs with AI
18:11<andythenorth>also crash on exit
18:11<andythenorth>probably dupes of each other
18:11*andythenorth should tidy those up
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18:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27793 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2017-03-13 23:16:44 +0100 )
18:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6450]: Use of uninitialised variable cause lzo to fail. Add check for error status.
18:17*andythenorth closed one bug, it’s now 149
18:17<andythenorth>also bed
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18:18<@peter1138>148 now
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20:01<samu>if (this->state == FLYING) ++this->current_flight_time /= _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed;
20:02<Wolf01>It looks so wrong
20:03<Wolf01>Use some {} and split it in 3 lines please
20:03<samu>0 + 1 /4 = 0
20:03<@peter1138>++x->y /= z? What?
20:04<samu>because integer math sucks
20:05<samu>time never increases :(
20:05<samu>but i need to take plane speed factor into account
20:05<@peter1138>I'm not surprised with your made up syntax.
20:07<samu>why is computers doing / so sucky
20:07<samu>i don't get 0.25 + 0.25 + 0.25..., i get 0 + 0 + 0 + 0...
20:08<@peter1138>Oh gosh.
20:08<@peter1138>You really have no idea how computers work do you?
20:08<samu>i guess i don't
20:11<Wolf01>Screen and saved.
20:15<samu>uint64 real_cft = a->current_flight_time / _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed / _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed;
20:15<samu>if (this->state == FLYING) ++this->current_flight_time *= _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed;
20:16<samu>multiplies by 4, only to divide it by 4 twice
20:16<Wolf01>Please, more
20:17<samu>flight time is being done tickly
20:17<samu>not daily
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20:19<@peter1138>Does it giggle?
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20:20<samu>ffp dart, with a max speed of 947, goes from right corner to left corner of the map in 3168 *4 / 4 / 4 ticks
20:21<Wolf01>You know that you can even simplify the *4/4 with a *1?
20:22<samu>i need to think
20:22<@peter1138>Yes, you should try that.
20:22<samu>gonna try a speed factor 1/3
20:22<Wolf01>Still *1
20:23<samu>i need to count the time with the plane speed factor taken into account
20:24<samu>if i change the speed mid flight, i still want it to count correctly
20:27<samu>oh crap
20:28<samu>i'm terrible at math
20:29<Wolf01>What makes you think so?
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20:34<samu>if (this->state == FLYING) this->current_flight_time += _settings_game.vehicle.plane_speed;
20:37<samu>@calc 12672 / 4
20:37<@DorpsGek>samu: 3168
20:37<samu>nice, got it
20:39<Wolf01>But what happen if you change the setting mid flight?
20:39<samu>probably bad stuff :(
20:41<samu>@calc 7122 / 3
20:41<@DorpsGek>samu: 2374
20:41<samu>@calc 7122 / 3 / 3
20:41<@DorpsGek>samu: 791.333333333
20:41<samu>@calc 12672 /4 /4
20:41<@DorpsGek>samu: 792
20:42<Wolf01>Oh... that's weird
20:46<samu>seems so simple, but i'm stuck
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20:49<samu>@calc 791 / 1 / 1
20:49<@DorpsGek>samu: 791
20:50<samu>@calc 3166 / 2 / 2
20:50<@DorpsGek>samu: 791.5
20:50<samu>well, they're all around the same constant value, that's something, but now I'm stuck
20:54<Wolf01>You should also account for diagonal speed
20:56<samu>i changed plane speed mid flight
20:57<samu>current_flight_time 8638 unsigned short
20:57<samu>this is not right
20:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27794 trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp (2017-03-14 01:57:52 +0100 )
20:57<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6526]: Chat text background overflowed due to missing padding.
21:00<samu>pff, i'm not sure what I'm doing, guess i better go to bed, get fresh ideas tomorrow
21:01<samu>well, cyas, take care all
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21:03<Wolf01>And full moon was 2 days ago
21:05<Wolf01>Btw, I think I'll go to bed too, I want to be here when this madness continues
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 14 00:00:24 2017