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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-03-25

---Logopened Sat Mar 25 00:00:35 2017
---Daychanged Sat Mar 25 2017
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01:09<SimYouLater>Hey, I'm still having trouble with the specs of ships for blueFISH. I'll start with the speed. My test vehicle is supposed to have an ocean top speed of 18 km/h. Instead it has an ocean speed of 20 km/h. ocean_speed_fraction is set to 1.
01:10<SimYouLater>Could I get some assistance?
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02:37<@Alberth>great IH, I started upgrading to diesel (Chinooks) with 55t wagons, number of trains isn't decreasing much, but they get shorter
02:37<andythenorth>it doesn’t quite match up though :)
02:37<andythenorth>the chinook is longer than the steam engine it replaces
02:38<@Alberth>ah, yes, could be, I remove the existing trains completely, as I change the wagons too
02:38<andythenorth>IH will be having a few tweaks ;)
02:38<andythenorth>is shorter better?
02:38<@Alberth>also, I "discovered" refit at station :p
02:40<@Alberth>not sure if shorter is better or not, my stations are way too long for my trains, so it doesn't make any difference
02:40<@Alberth>platforms are 5 or 6, trains around 4
02:40<andythenorth>yeah I get about the same
02:41<@Alberth>I had more 30t wagons, but they are shorter, so total length isn't that much different
02:41<andythenorth>‘refit at station’ is a winning tactic
02:41<andythenorth>I almost think that that the old refit button should be removed, although it’s more obvious to players
02:42<@Alberth>power is a bit less, I think, chinook is a bit slower, but it carries more cargo, at 6x freight multiply
02:42<@Alberth>"old" refit button?
02:43<andythenorth>depot refit
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02:43<@Alberth>depends perhaps, you can limit refit capabilities heavily if you want
02:44<andythenorth>also station refit can’t do subtypes
02:44<@Alberth>some more realistic sets likely have very limited refit capabilities, or eg nuts has none
02:44<@Alberth>nor does default set :)
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02:46<@Alberth>I am not used to having refit available :)
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02:47<@Alberth>orders with refit are a bit magic though, took a few attempts before I got it right
02:48<andythenorth>occasionally they are buggy
02:49<andythenorth>sometimes first time a train arrives at station, it just doesn’t refit
02:49<andythenorth>all vehicles on same shared orders will do same thing
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02:56<@Alberth>indeed, I had to force it at first with "full load" :)
02:59<andythenorth>sometimes running the route does it
02:59<andythenorth>I suspect it’s an interaction with cdist and vehicle reservations
03:00<@Alberth>sounds very possible
03:02<@peter1138>Supercheese, "how full they are"
03:03<Supercheese>yeah, looks like it
03:07<@peter1138>More useful for passengers/mail than other cargo
03:13<andythenorth>ach forests
03:23<andythenorth>9 trees, like default forest? Instead of 4?
03:57<@Alberth>dense looks better imho
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04:04<andythenorth>now I have to have two lots of magic :)
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04:13*andythenorth wonders about other industries with trees
04:13<andythenorth>vineyard is pretty bad
04:25<@Alberth>vineyard doesn't have many tress, does it?
04:26<@peter1138>Only if it's mismanaged
04:26<andythenorth>I should probably draw vines
04:26<andythenorth>I have never drawn any trees or organic stuff :P
04:26<andythenorth>drew a cow
04:26<@Alberth>lines of smaller bushes, mostly
04:26<andythenorth>grapes don’t come from cows :P
04:27<@Alberth>it does look pretty, if you ignore its function, though
04:28<@Alberth>:o textile mill only in extreme?
04:28<andythenorth>vineyard would be better as farm fields
04:29<andythenorth>newgrf fields anyone? o_O
04:29<@Alberth>there are more industries for extreme-only :o
04:30<@Alberth>newgrf fields would be really nice, wouldn't it
04:30<@Alberth>they do tend to get slaughtered by crossing rail-tracks though
04:32<andythenorth>they do
04:32<andythenorth>but somehow it probably doesn’t matter
04:32<andythenorth>never bothers me for farms at least
04:33<andythenorth>sheep farm, for example, would be much better if surrounded by fields of sheep
04:35<@peter1138>is newgrf fields not a thing?
04:35<andythenorth>not yet
04:36<andythenorth>was tried 7 years ago
04:37<@peter1138>lots of penises
04:38<andythenorth>tinker fields
04:39<@peter1138>what was wrong with it 7 years ago?
04:40<andythenorth>can’t remember :P
04:40<andythenorth>frosch might remember
04:40<andythenorth>also chores, biab
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06:18<andythenorth>uniform forest trees, or 2 tiles, mixed up?
06:18<andythenorth>and should I put more machinery or tracks in?
06:18<Wolf01> that's for you
06:19<andythenorth>and should I spend the next 2 days animating tree cutting and growth, with random triggers :P
06:19<Wolf01>Put a dirt road
06:23<andythenorth>I should
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the repeating pattern is too strong, you should only use one type of tree
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>or have a lot mmore randomness
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06:28<Samu>there is no single ai prepared to build routes on rivers
06:28<Samu>that's sad :(
06:28<Wolf01>Make one
06:28<Samu>there's also a bug with getting the closest ship depot
06:28<Samu>peter1138: halp
06:28<Wolf01>Let him sleep, is saturday
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06:29<Samu>he went to bed earlier than me
06:31<Samu>dictator ai doesn't know that it has to build locks to move ships on inclined slopes
06:31<Samu>shipai doesn't build on rivers at all, only at sea
06:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: one tree might be better, like default game
06:34<andythenorth>or the whole thing has to be much more random
06:34<andythenorth>with paths and machines and so on
06:34<Wolf01>Can't you just randomize tree bits?
06:35<Wolf01>Or it's a fixed png?
06:35<andythenorth>it’s base set trees
06:36<Wolf01>IMO, all the forests should work like tropical ones
06:36<Wolf01>With actual trees on the map
06:36<Wolf01>So they will be randomized by the game itself, and you can even plant more to "fix" the production
06:40<andythenorth>I have considered it many timews
06:40<andythenorth>but planting trees is boring
06:40<Wolf01>Make the forest plant them by itself
06:41<Wolf01>As soon as the sawmill cuts a tile, it should already prepare the new saplings
06:43<andythenorth>animated fields would be better for that ;)
06:44<Wolf01>Yeah, make a sawmill like a farm :P
06:44<andythenorth>newgrf fields...
06:44<Wolf01>Also, do farms decrease production if I remove fields?
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>afaik no
06:45<Wolf01>Samu, go and implement that XD
06:45<andythenorth>they don’t
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>the fields know which industry they belong to, but the industry does not know about fields
06:45<andythenorth>ah maybe that was why the patch failed
06:46<andythenorth>I think frosch got stuck removing fields from closed industries
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>that already works, but it is done in the tileloop, so there is a short timeframe where the fields still exist, but do not know what to draw because the industry is gone
06:48<andythenorth>so they lose their reference?
06:48<andythenorth>which means fields would need to be a type of tile, with their own storage?
06:49<andythenorth>I think the patch relied on them being able to make a callback against the industry
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>they have storage
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>but not enough, probably
06:49<Wolf01>Also industries should have a tile_field_counter to use in production calculation, and when a tile gets destroyed or created should increment or decrement the counter
06:49<andythenorth>and in default game, it’s just a flag, and the game knows what to draw?
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>the default fields have only like 4 states
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>the states are stored in the tile
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it could be "solved" by just demanding the newgrf coder to prepare for this case
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>field tiles would get their own newgrf type independent from industry (tile), and then you declare that their PARENT (industry) might not always exist (i.e. industry shut down)
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>they would then behave like objects
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>just the industry places them instead of the player
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>fields, plantations, forests, power lines, ...
07:01<andythenorth>that seems the most viable route
07:01<andythenorth>there would be a cb on the industry when objects are being built, and it would return layouts
07:01<andythenorth>which are IDs of objects provided by the newgrf
07:02<andythenorth>although it seems appealing to make the objects reflect things like industry production, I think it’s unhelpful and unnecessary
07:13<Samu>hmm buoys can prevent oil rigs from spawning
07:14<Samu>ship depots too
07:14<andythenorth>that’s correct, no?
07:15<Samu>it depends
07:16<Samu>they're placed on water, but then it's no longer a water tile
07:17<Samu>when it checks for water to place an oil rig, a single buoy can prevent it from spawning
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07:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are a few corner cases to consider
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>like what happens when the game builds a new industry that happens to get the old ID
07:21<Samu>must investigate this
07:22<Samu> if (gfx == GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK) { if (!IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) || !IsTileFlat(cur_tile)) { return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE); }
07:23<Samu>ah, it seems that it can build on depots after all
07:23<Samu>but not on buoys
07:23<Samu>buoys are station tile type
07:23*andythenorth wonders if there’s any way to create virtual industry, off the map, run the cb chain, then destroy it
07:24<andythenorth>then just the type is needed, not the instance ID
07:24<andythenorth>fields should behave generically, per the industry type, not per the instance
07:25<andythenorth>hmm, where is the tree stump sprite
07:26<andythenorth>maybe pikka drew that
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07:34<Samu>t.t no single ai making good use of rivers
07:35<Samu>some try, but fail miserably :(, they don't know they got to build locks
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, better
07:46<andythenorth>ach, needs animated tree cutting + regrowth
07:46<andythenorth>so not minded to do that :P
07:47<andythenorth>also I think it needs 2 tiles for the equipment, one of them featuring logs
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07:52<andythenorth>why did I include forests that are just 3x3?
07:52<andythenorth>they look daft :P
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>because last time you were worried that industries have too large footprint and can't be placed properly
07:56<andythenorth>I think I overshot :P
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07:57<andythenorth>moin frosch123
08:11<frosch123>andythenorth: <- that's the current proposal for fields
08:11<frosch123>the old one had some quirks, and when newobjects were added, this new spec was started on top of that
08:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27827 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2017-03-25 13:21:17 +0100 )
08:21<@DorpsGek>-Codechange (r27819): Deduplicate code. (adf88)
08:29<Wolf01>Mmmm must to truck
08:30<Wolf01>I need to discover that truck chassis to make a road train :(
08:32<andythenorth>frosch123: is influence on cargo production needed / wise? o_O
08:34<andythenorth>OS X thinks one of FIRS pngs is an app
08:34<andythenorth>maybe it is? o_O
08:35<Samu>FIX PLOZ
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like phishing mail trojans...
08:35<Samu>patch provided
08:36<andythenorth>maybe it’s a binary masquerading as a png
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08:46<Wolf01>HA! Got lost again, managed to find the way home, along the trip I found another researchable object and... it unlocked the truck \o/
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09:09<supermop_home>damn I had a dream that andy redrew all my roadtype sprites to make them look better
09:10<andythenorth>I had a dream that newest photoshop isn’t broken
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09:13<andythenorth>crashes, all the defaults are wrong, seems to not embed palette for 8bpp save for web
09:14<LordAro>hmm. `bool a; int b; a != (b < 0);` vs `bool a; int b; a ? b < 0 : b >= 0;` ?
09:14<frosch123>i usually do the former
09:14<andythenorth>so is there a tree stump in the base set?
09:14<andythenorth>or did I imagine it?
09:15<supermop_home>sure there was in tto
09:15<frosch123>default forest has growth stages
09:15<frosch123>including cut ones
09:16<Samu>damn im bad
09:16<andythenorth>ah maybe it’s in the forest sprites
09:16<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
09:16<frosch123>there are also dead trees
09:17<frosch123>maybe one of them looks like a stump
09:17<andythenorth>I used some of them already :)
09:17<Samu>crap, i posted a patch that fails
09:18<Samu>crap, i'm sorry :(
09:19<Samu>delete this for me, i should have tested it, my bad
09:19<Samu>i don't understand bools yet
09:20<andythenorth>1 or 0 :)
09:20<andythenorth>1 xor 0
09:21<andythenorth>peter1138: fields such ^^^^^^^^^
09:22<frosch123>"should be planted at the end of spring only" <- i forgot my last test included ecs wood vector
09:22<@peter1138>i need to recover
09:23<supermop_home>kept up with the talisker huh?
09:23<@peter1138>no just got back from 64 miles
09:23<@peter1138>64 miles, 2500 feet and 16.1mph avg
09:23<supermop_home>hopefully on bike, not foot]
09:23<@peter1138>also: headwind
09:23<@peter1138>one of those headwinds that seems to follow :S
09:24<andythenorth>nice day though eh?
09:24<@peter1138>yeah blue skies!
09:25<@Alberth>o/ all
09:26<@Alberth>clearly you're biking too fast :)
09:26<frosch123>hmm, no stumps, just small trees
09:26<Samu>!IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) && !IsBuoyTile(cur_tile)
09:26<@Alberth>retina screen, close enough :p
09:26<Samu>time to fix it
09:27<LordAro>peter1138: ooh, very nice
09:27<LordAro>frosch123: how about a line like return _engine_sort_direction != !(va < vb);
09:28<LordAro>wait, that's silly
09:28<andythenorth>stumps are in the forest sprite, they are in a 3x3 grid
09:28<andythenorth>no use to me :)
09:29<Samu>tested it
09:29<@peter1138>that's always useful :p
09:29<Samu>it was not a ||, but a &&
09:29<Samu>sorry about that, :(
09:30<frosch123>LordAro: in C sometimes i have to write "!(a) != !(b)", where the "!" are used to convert integers to bools
09:31<frosch123>i add a comment about that though :p
09:31<Wolf01>Samu, also pay attention to parenthesis when doing boolean operations
09:31<@peter1138>I often see "if (!(a == b))" in patches
09:32<Milek7>frosch123: cast to bool?
09:32<frosch123>"if (a) { return true; } else { return false; }" is another classic :)
09:32<frosch123>Milek7: C does not have bools
09:32<frosch123>it only has integers
09:32<Samu> if (!IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) && !IsBuoyTile(cur_tile) || !IsTileFlat(cur_tile)) { return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE); }
09:33<Samu>parentesis are needed?
09:33<frosch123>and various fancy things may use other values than 1 for true
09:33<Wolf01>Depends on the result tou want
09:33<frosch123>so, comparing "bools" in C is dangerious, since "true == true" may not hold
09:33<@Alberth>!(a) != !!(b) :p
09:34<andythenorth>forests with gaps in - delete that layout?
09:34*andythenorth thinks so
09:34<frosch123>andythenorth: pikka would be sad :p
09:34<andythenorth>he can tell me by DM :P
09:34<Samu>is not water and is not buoy or is not flat
09:34<andythenorth>he’s busy with ideas
09:34<Wolf01>#define true false
09:34<Samu>(is not water and is not buoy) or is not flat
09:35<LordAro>frosch123: this patch is getting to be rather bigger than i expected
09:35<frosch123>clang stuff again?
09:35<LordAro>no, i decided i'd try getting rid of [QG]SortT
09:36<@Alberth>Samu: (not water and not buoy) or not flat vs not water and (not buoy or not flat) ?
09:36<LordAro>for some reason
09:36<Samu>i want it to do "(is not water and is not buoy) or is not flat"
09:36<Samu>does it require parentesis?
09:36<frosch123>LordAro: would you like to learn about docker?
09:36<@peter1138>always use parenthesis if you mix && and ||
09:37<@Alberth>Samu: for the compiler no, for human beings yes
09:37<@peter1138>or, as we call them, brackets
09:37<Samu>bah, i didn't use, because... it was working
09:37<Wolf01>Samu, no, it doesn't, but for better uderstandability
09:37<Wolf01>Samu, it's like "a * b + c"
09:37<LordAro>frosch123: i have some knowledge of what docker is, never used it myself though. why?
09:38<frosch123>so you can finish TrueBrain starts of a compile farm with compilers which are not older than 10 years
09:38<LordAro>ah, lol
09:38<LordAro>i can think of worse things to do
09:39<LordAro>you'd have to wait a few months before i actually graduate and have "some" spare time
09:39<frosch123>unless we get a new compile farm, all attempts to move to c++11/14/17 are meaningless
09:39<frosch123>LordAro: sad, you do not have free time after graduation
09:40<frosch123>i started on ottd during my graduation, because it was too boring to do graduation stuff all day
09:41<andythenorth>he’s right
09:42<andythenorth>I spent most of my degree learning fun things, nothing to do with the degree
09:42<LordAro>oh for sure
09:42<andythenorth>eh 4 forests
09:42<andythenorth>probably do?
09:42<LordAro>this is what i spend far too much of my time managing these days
09:43<Samu> - just added parenetsis
09:43<@peter1138>all i see is BAPS
09:44<LordAro>program that long predates me :)
09:44<Milek7>some people write code like "if (2 == something)", it drives me crazy
09:45<@peter1138>me too
09:45<@peter1138>and i am aware of the good reason for it
09:45<LordAro>peter1138: "i don't turn on my compiler warning flags" ?
09:47<Wolf01><Milek7> some people write code like "if (2 == something)", it drives me crazy <- that's to avoid to do "if (something = 2)"
09:47<frosch123>andythenorth: looks nice :)
09:47<Wolf01>The result of that condition is "yes"
09:48*andythenorth doing the snow now
09:49<andythenorth>snow under trees?
09:49<@peter1138>they are quite dense
09:49<@peter1138>like me
09:50<@peter1138>mind you it could drift there
09:50<frosch123>Milek7: there are secure coding guidelines like CERT. they have a particular section about "portability", which is essentially a collection of compiler bugs from compilers of the past 40 years
09:51<Samu>speaking of code
09:51<supermop_home>needs at least some snow on the dirt
09:51<Samu>how do i avoid repetition
09:51<Samu>MakeRiver and CircularTileSearch is being repeated
09:51<@Alberth>andythenorth: looks nice, south trees are best for cutting obviously :p
09:52<andythenorth>supermop: I can’t find a partial-snow dirt tile
09:52<andythenorth>and I cba to draw one
09:52<frosch123>if you want to make it realistic, add big piles of small branches
09:53<Samu>I want to collect all the tiles that need to do MakeRiver + CircularTileSearch
09:53<Samu>then send them all into a for loop
09:53<frosch123>(that's a trap comment, noone would want to make it realisitic)
09:54<@Alberth>cutting a few trees once every 50 years :p
09:54<andythenorth>pretty good eh? o_O
09:55*andythenorth might have the wrong sprite number
09:55<frosch123>reverse forest?
09:55<frosch123>deliver wood, plant trees in the desert, desert kills trees, repeat?
09:56<@Alberth>I thought lumber mills killed trees
09:57<andythenorth>‘failing plantation’
10:04<Samu>isn't it possible to avoid repetition?
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10:08<andythenorth>tropic eh
10:08<andythenorth>“it will do"
10:08<@peter1138>yeah i mean who'll even see it
10:09<andythenorth>if a tree falls in a FIRS forest....
10:10<@peter1138>industries have sound effects right?
10:10<Wolf01>Eddi, wtf are you on steam?
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10:11<argoneus>good afternoon train friends
10:12<Wolf01>Oh, you got the time right :D
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10:13<andythenorth>peter1138: I never got as far as sound effects :P
10:15<andythenorth>is the tropic forest too uniform?
10:15<andythenorth>I could piss around making it more varied
10:16<Wolf01>I figured out the most worrying image
10:22<Wolf01>Big cat pissing around the forest to make yellow trees variant
10:26<Samu>who's the pathfinder expert? was it Alberth
10:26<Samu>or alberth is gui expert
10:26<@Alberth>tropic doesn't strike me as a good idea for planting forests :p
10:27<Samu>there are no forests on that tileset
10:27<andythenorth>it is what it is :P
10:27<Samu>forest industries
10:29<Samu>need help on sending ships to the closest (but reachable) ship depot, peter1138 did you do something about it? i'd like to solve this
10:29<@Alberth>samu isn't trying to change a found path too late in the process? I'd expect you want to influence how it finds a path
10:30<supermop_home>a lot of lumber - legal and otherwise - comes from tropic areas
10:31<supermop_home>if you want a more morally acceptable alternative, a bamboo plantation in tropic would be equivalent
10:32<supermop_home>drawing a bamboo stalk as a tree would be a pain though
10:32<Samu>oh, about the rivers patch, well, i like it how it is right now, it's not perfect though, but at least it's something acceptable in my eyes
10:33<Samu>the coding is probably crap
10:33<Samu>could be improved, but meh... it works
10:35<Samu>my current issues with water that I'm still trying to deal with is... sending ships to the closest ship depot, probably locks under bridges, especially town bridges
10:35<supermop_home>Samu, have you looked at the rainfall river generator patch?
10:35<Samu>nope, which one is that
10:36<supermop_home>it a hydrological model based terrain/river generator
10:36<supermop_home>it seeks to make the hills and valleys based on the flow of water rather than the other way around
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10:40<Samu>oh, those look quite realistic
10:40<Samu>are they lock-friendly?
10:40<supermop_home>tbh that's less important to me than non-stupid looking rivers and valleys
10:42<supermop_home>bowl shaped craters and depressions with no exit are fairly rare, but seem to comprise the majority of valleys in openttd
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10:42<Samu>i rather have locks connect
10:43<Samu>but both would be ideal
10:43<supermop_home>beyond annoying me from a geological perspective, it makes building rail, river or road transit that follows valleys a pain
10:43<supermop_home>Samu if the downstream areas are wide, its is plenty easy to build locks
10:44<supermop_home>rather I see no need to enforce easy lock placement in high alpine streams near the source
10:44<@Alberth>but those skiing tourists!
10:44<Samu>i downloaded, this thing is made of 50 patches? ugh, how do i patch them
10:45<Samu>i thought there would be 1 file
10:45<supermop_home>even at St. Louis, the historic center of barge shipping on the Mississippi, they had to build a length of canal to get around the rapids
10:46<supermop_home>(that's what made St. louis important, besides the confluence - before the canal, all goods had to be transshipped there)
10:47<@Alberth>likely it got that position as they were the first to make a canal :)
10:47<supermop_home>see canal and lock just 'below' the river
10:48<frosch123>andythenorth: +1 to making forest not as rectangular as plantations
10:48<andythenorth>hmm, I made them more rectangular earlier :)
10:49<andythenorth>in this one
10:50<frosch123>i guess V would put the whole forest on a belt: trees are planted in the front, grow along the moving belt, and are cut at the end
10:50<andythenorth>that is a good idea
10:50<andythenorth>moving forest
10:50<Wolf01>Put the camp in the middle and a muddy path towards one side?
10:50<andythenorth>Wolf01: it probably would look better with a path through it
10:50<@Alberth>supermop_home: ah, right, I see it now
10:51<Samu>screw this, i don't know how to patch
10:51<@Alberth>that needs nrt, so you can drive a tram through the woods :)
10:51<Samu>why didn't he make 1 single patch file
10:52<@Alberth>because there are a lot of small steps involved in making something as big as that
10:52<@Alberth>you saw how many commits I made from your aircraft display patch?
10:52<supermop_home>before that was built in the 40s, shipping was either transfered at st. louis, or had to wait for a lot of rain to raise the water level over the rocks
10:53<Samu>yes, i dunno why it has to be done like that
10:53<@Alberth>one elementary change in one commit
10:53<@Alberth>makes it simpler to find an error if one is made
10:54<@Alberth>likely the rainfall patch was made with mercurial MQ, a system to manage a stack of patches
10:54<supermop_home>Samu you'd never get something huge that changes rivers, mountains, and town placement, and adds many more settings into trunk
10:55<supermop_home>probably each change would have to be reviewed and added on its own
10:55<@Alberth>it would
10:56<Samu>for me it makes it more complex
10:56<@Alberth>throwing it all on one big heap makes that nobody is going to understand how it changed the code
10:56<supermop_home>Samumore than one person has to read and understand it
10:57<supermop_home>if it is in small bits, it is easier for a stranger to check that each piece does not cause a problem
10:58<Samu>i dont know which order i have to apply them
10:59<Samu>i dont even know if they can be patched in a given order
10:59<Samu>some features don't make sense alone, so i just end up doing both
10:59<Samu>in 1
11:02<Samu>those screenshots look awesome
11:02<Samu>but i notice they're not lock-friendly
11:03<supermop_home>how do you mean?
11:03<Samu>double inclined slopes for example
11:03<Samu>river spawning in that
11:04<@Alberth>the 'series' file gives the order
11:04<supermop_home>not every river, or every part of a given river, is easy to engineer for navigation
11:07<andythenorth>should be for gameplay though
11:07<supermop_home>i'm not sure about that
11:07<supermop_home>i agree that some rivers should, and that downstream areas should
11:07<supermop_home>in most cases
11:08<supermop_home>but players sending panamax ships to mountain tops without placing a single tile of canal seems a little dumb to me
11:11<supermop_home>I think their is value in a map having a mix of 1) navigable rivers 2)rivers that are easy to make navigable, & 3) rivers probably not worth making navigable
11:12<supermop_home>but if you already have code for making rivers more lock friendly Samu, you should try to integrate it with RRG if you want
11:12<Samu>i'd have to understand his code
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11:12<Samu>don't even know how to patch
11:13<nekomaster>I dunno how to patch stuff in Windows
11:13<Samu>i use tortoise svn, right click - apply patch, select trunk folder
11:14<supermop_home>not saying you have to use it, just you've been talking about river code, and making them more 'flowy' fore lack of better word, so i thought that fork might be helpful to you
11:15<Samu>when i have multiple patches selected, tortoisesvn doesn't list Apply Patch...
11:16<Samu>oh well, i kinda like what i've done though, it's not realistic at all though
11:17<Samu>for gameplay intentions, it's wide
11:18<Samu>might allow 90 degree at times
11:18<supermop_home>you might want to look at having your rivers carve the land a bit though
11:18<Samu>not always
11:18<supermop_home>so they don't get stuck by landscape at times
11:19<Samu>that's something I don't know how
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11:19<supermop_home>rrg does it though
11:19<nekomaster>I'm thinking of maybe trying to make a North American road vehicle set, but I dunno how I should go about things
11:20<supermop_home>nekomaster: find a gpl rv set and steal its code
11:20<Samu>there is no terraforming involved at all :(
11:20<nekomaster>I know, but the other part is how I should go about doing things with vehicles
11:20<supermop_home>build them in depot and give them orders?
11:21<nekomaster>I mean what to include and what not
11:21<Samu>pathfinder finds a route, and contours the terrain to reach the destination, never terraforms
11:22<Samu>once found, it starts building the river. It plans it in 1-tile-wide
11:22<Samu>i enlarged it to become 3-tile-wides while constructing it
11:22<supermop_home>nekomaster: being too comprehensive if probably boring
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11:23<nekomaster>I don't want to add every single truck from North America
11:24<nekomaster>I'm thinking of going a Semi-Generic route where capacities and specs will benifit gameplay but designs of vehicles will be based on real life american vehicles
11:24<nekomaster>or stuff used in America
11:25<Samu>dont know how the river is generated in rainfall river gen, does it take an image and then convert it into a heightmap with extra water tiles?
11:28<nekomaster>Though if I go with a Semi-Generic route then I'll also have to make up fictional names/companies and set up generations of vehicles
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11:32<andythenorth>nekomaster: did you get a compile working?
11:32<nekomaster>Nope, still the same error as before
11:32<Samu>guess not
11:32<Samu>it really is computer generated
11:32<nekomaster>As I said before I'm on Windows 10 using Subsystem for Linux way of compiling NML
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11:33<andythenorth>there must be a way to install python packages on windows
11:33<andythenorth>it can’t be that cripplied
11:34<@Alberth>ha :p
11:34<nekomaster>Well Subsystem for linux basically downloads a copy of ubuntu
11:34<nekomaster>and provides terminal/bash from Ubuntu
11:34<@Alberth>so it has apt-get?
11:34<nekomaster>thats how I had to install python and gcc
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11:35<nekomaster>Thats what I'm working with
11:36<@Alberth>so what's failing, still cpp?
11:36<andythenorth>needs the python deps
11:36<andythenorth>maybe docutils
11:36<andythenorth>optionally, graphviz
11:36<@Alberth>firs-ish stuff
11:37<nekomaster>it says I have chameleon but then says it can't find the module chameleon
11:37<@Alberth>there are several chameleons :p
11:38<@Alberth>yeah, something like that :p
11:38<nekomaster>Mind you, anything that works in terminal for linux should work with what i have
11:39<nekomaster>Or I should say, anything that works in Ubuntu's Terminal/bash shell
11:40<@Alberth>I know
11:40<@Alberth>I am just not that good with package stuff in debian/ubuntu, so it's a puzzle what to use
11:41<nekomaster>I would set things up for Windows again with stuff like mingw, but that was a lot of work getting that all set up last time
11:41<nekomaster>why can't things be easy
11:43<@Alberth>mingw is a mess too, more than bash shell, imho
11:44<@Alberth>it is easy, you just need to know how it works
11:44<nekomaster>I'm just not use to dealing with complicated things
11:44<nekomaster>maybe its my ADHD or something else but sometimes complex things just go over my head
11:45<nekomaster>thats why for the longest time I avoided even trying to learn NML because I couldn't understand anything
11:48<@Alberth> this says to list the package you have with dpkg-query -l '*chameleon*'
11:49<@Alberth>andythenorth: what python does it need?
11:49<nekomaster>i have no idea whats going on here
11:49<@Alberth> there is this, but it's python2
11:50<@Alberth>indeed, that's the other chameleon
11:51<nekomaster>my brain is overheating trying to understand that
11:52<@Alberth>there are 2 packages with "chameleon" in the name, and they're not related at all, other than both being a template expand engine :)
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11:53<@Alberth>I guess the simple test would be to install the other chameleon too, and see what happens
11:53<nekomaster>I dunno how
11:53<nekomaster>my brain hurts
11:53<@Alberth>only problem is that firs may use python3, and that other chameleon is for python2, so it may fail
11:54<nekomaster>Yeah, andy said I need Python 3 which I do have
11:54<nekomaster>Python 3.4.3
11:54<@Alberth>ah, ok, no point in installing the python2 package thus, ok
11:54<@Alberth>do you know the name of the ubuntu version? trusty, or xenial, or ?
11:56<nekomaster>Ubuntu 14.04 LTS
11:56<nekomaster>so Trusty
11:57<nekomaster>is that a good great or a sarcastic great?
11:59<andythenorth>Alberth: needs 3.4 or 3.5 or so
12:00<@Alberth>good great, it narrows the search
12:00<andythenorth>whatever happened to “virtualenv -p=python3”, the “pip install [module]”
12:01<andythenorth>is that not a thing on windows?
12:01<@Alberth>nekomaster is basically on ubuntu (ie linux)
12:01<@Alberth>but with a 'stable' distribution
12:02<@Alberth>there is no python3 pyramid chameleon for trusty, it seems
12:02<@Alberth>so you must install from source, I guess
12:03<nekomaster>i wouldn't know how to do that
12:04<@Alberth>pypi has the sourcecode, now to find the install command :)
12:06<@Alberth>likely something along the lines of installing ply
12:06<nekomaster>i already have ply
12:06<nekomaster>as far as I know
12:07<nekomaster>did I mention my head hurts?
12:07<nekomaster>I litterally mean that, I dont understand anything here
12:07<@Alberth>the procedure is mostly the same, I mean
12:08<@Alberth> that's the source code package, download the .tar.gz
12:08<nekomaster>I dunno where to put it
12:09<@Alberth>we need to unpack and install it, so some temporary directory is fine
12:09<@Alberth>in your home directory, for example
12:09<nekomaster>I just put it in C:\Tempo
12:09<nekomaster>where I put the source for NML and Ply as well
12:10<@Alberth>you can run linux commands there?
12:10<nekomaster>already have commandline open and i'm in bash
12:10<nekomaster>cd /c/tempo/chameleon
12:10<@Alberth>in that directory, enter tar xzf pyramid_chameleon-0.3.tar.gz
12:11<nekomaster>its already unpacked
12:11<@Alberth>magic :)
12:11<nekomaster>chameleon is the directory I unpacked it to
12:11<nekomaster>7zip is my friend
12:11<@Alberth>there is a file there?
12:13<@Alberth>python3.4 setup,py install
12:14<nekomaster>its doing things now
12:14<@Alberth>hopefully the right things :p
12:14<@Alberth>it's a pity there is no ubuntu package for it, would have been cleaner and simpler
12:15<nekomaster>and road hog still errors
12:15<@Alberth>different error?
12:15<nekomaster>ImportError : no module named 'markdown"
12:15<@Alberth>ah, progress :p
12:15<nekomaster>I suppose
12:15<@Alberth>let me see what I have installed here
12:16<nekomaster>hopefully I don't have to download every library for ubuntu just to compile road hog
12:17<@Alberth>every library is a few thousand packages :p
12:18<andythenorth>oh it was markdown not docutils :)
12:18<andythenorth>I work on multiple projects, some use one, some use the other
12:19<nekomaster>though the thing is, roadhog also looks very complicated
12:19<@Alberth> at least a markdown package seems to exist, I have 2 packages installed, so 50% chance :p
12:20<@Alberth>sudo apt-get install python3-markdown should do the trick, I think
12:20<andythenorth>nekomaster: Road Hog is complicated because you have to draw the graphics precisely
12:20<andythenorth>on the other hand, it automates all the cargos /\o/\
12:21<nekomaster>the code for everything looks complicated
12:21<@Alberth>iron horse isn't exactly consistent with cargo graphics, slag gets different colours in different wagons :p
12:21<andythenorth>Alberth: yeah, that needs fixed :)
12:21<andythenorth>"Iron Horse 2"
12:22<nekomaster>when things get too much for me like right now, I just feel like going back to bed
12:22<@Alberth>steel random graphics are great, keep those :)
12:22<andythenorth>nekomaster: this is more complicated than all of the nml for a vehicle? o_O
12:22<nekomaster>I'm use to things being like how I did with 2cc Trains or NARS Addon
12:23<nekomaster>in the mean time, I can see a road-hog.tar now
12:24<andythenorth>ach, trees need really compressed together on a steep slope
12:24<andythenorth>nekomaster: anything in ‘docs’?
12:25<andythenorth>when you run make, the docs folder should be automatically built
12:25<nekomaster>yeah, thats there
12:25<nekomaster>and so is the grf and tar now
12:25<nekomaster>make ran fine this time
12:25<andythenorth>graphics are all in src/graphics
12:25<andythenorth>as long as you don’t want to change *anything* about how RH works, it’s easy :)
12:25<nekomaster>I saw that, but I'm still confused by how everything is set up
12:26<andythenorth>there is a python source file for each vehicle
12:26<andythenorth>in src/vehicles
12:26<nekomaster>Well for an American Road vehicle set, I'd like to at some point have Horses, Steam wagons/trucks, Early Buses/Trucks, Rigid trucks, Tractor-Trailer 18wheelers, and Doubles
12:27<andythenorth>they’re all possible, except horses
12:27<andythenorth>horses would need animation, which isn’t provided
12:27<andythenorth>let’s make a ‘neko’ truck
12:27<nekomaster>thats fine for now
12:27<andythenorth>go to src/vehicles
12:28<nekomaster>im there now
12:28<nekomaster>(btw I still have bash open jsut incase)
12:28<andythenorth>copy ‘’ and rename the copy to ‘'
12:28<nekomaster>ok done, then what, open it in Notepad++?
12:29<andythenorth>you’ll also need to open the docs in a browser
12:29<andythenorth>explorer should do it
12:29<nekomaster>Yeah, thats all i have for a file explorer
12:29<andythenorth>(open index.html)
12:29<andythenorth>I mean IE ;)
12:29<nekomaster>I have chrome
12:29<andythenorth>or chrome or firefox
12:29<nekomaster>screw Edge
12:30<andythenorth>anyway open index.html, then go to ‘code reference’ and scroll to the end
12:30<andythenorth>you need to find the last used ID
12:31<nekomaster>I'm on the code reference page and the last id is the Nutbrook ID 960
12:31<andythenorth>ok so we’ll use 970 for ‘neko'
12:31<andythenorth>they go up in 10s
12:31<andythenorth>so go to in notepad
12:31<nekomaster>simple enough
12:32<nekomaster> is still open in notepad++
12:32<andythenorth>change the numeric ID to 970
12:32<nekomaster>Base numeric id?
12:32<andythenorth>change the id to ‘neko’ (lower case)
12:32<andythenorth>change the title to ‘Neko'
12:32<nekomaster>done and done
12:32<nekomaster>Neko [Open Truck]?
12:33<andythenorth>then go to src/rosters/
12:34<nekomaster>ok, im back, and I have the brit roster open in notepad now
12:35<nekomaster>nice that notepad++ has a tab feature
12:35<andythenorth>find ‘merrivale’
12:35<dlite>I have both iron and coal mine next to station, however, all of my engineering supplies seem to go only to the coal mine. is there any nice way of making something else happen aside of making a second station which only covers the iron mine and split the incoming trains evenly between stations?
12:36<andythenorth>and add neko on a line after it, with a ,
12:36<andythenorth>all lower case
12:36<nekomaster>ok, thats done and done
12:36<nekomaster>merrivale, neko, nettlebridge
12:36<andythenorth>ok, scroll down, around line 110 or so, there’s the buy menu list
12:36<andythenorth>you need to add neko there as
12:36<andythenorth>well *
12:37<andythenorth>you can choose where it goes in the order
12:37<nekomaster>because line 110 is glenmore,
12:38<andythenorth>I was guessing, my code is a bit different, because I have changes not in the main repo
12:38<andythenorth>anyway, same thing, add it lower case, with a ,
12:38<andythenorth>then one more step
12:38<nekomaster>well I decided to go down to merrivale in the list there and then add "neko,"
12:39<nekomaster>but thats done
12:39<andythenorth>now src/graphics/vehicles
12:39<nekomaster>ok, im there
12:39<andythenorth>find yeoman_template.png, copy it, rename copy to neko_template.png
12:39<andythenorth>then check all files are saved, try make
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12:42<nekomaster>ok i hit make now
12:42<nekomaster>I wonder though, can road hog do small early trucks/buses, and long 18-wheeler trucks?
12:43<nekomaster>Because gotta consider that American stuff tends to be bigger then british stuff
12:44<nekomaster>partially because of the long nose trucks
12:44<andythenorth>look in the docs - ‘road vehicles’ page
12:44<andythenorth>max length of any single unit is 8/8
12:45<nekomaster>I think 8/8 would only be needed for long 3 axle trailers
12:45<andythenorth>min length is probably 3/8 or so
12:45<andythenorth>I can’t remember what lengths I made the offsets for
12:45<nekomaster>well I imagine that if I stay in the same places as the templates things should be fine
12:47<andythenorth>ha ha
12:47<andythenorth>I made a truck with 4 trailers :P
12:47<nekomaster>that would belong in the outback
12:47<nekomaster>not in North america
12:47<andythenorth>go back to
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12:47<dlite>andythenorth: I can't seem to figure out, keywords to search help from wiki?
12:47<nekomaster>just have to open notepad++
12:47<andythenorth>around line 18
12:47<andythenorth>add a , to ‘cargo_length = 4'
12:48<nekomaster>add a what?
12:48<andythenorth>I’ll paste
12:48<andythenorth>replace lines 16-19 with that
12:48<nekomaster>oh i see
12:50<nekomaster>ok so now bash -c "make -b -r -R"
12:50<nekomaster>I love that I can call linux commands with 'bash -c "commandhere" '
12:52<nekomaster>I added flashing pixles to the Neko_template and I found it quickly ingame
12:52<nekomaster>now to build it
12:53<LordAro>frosch123: relevant from yesterday
12:53<nekomaster>and I have a 4 trailer neko truck
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12:54<@Alberth>hmm, 30 lines error message for an unknown variable :p
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12:55<nekomaster>Lol, the Neko truck with 4 trailers takes so long to speed up with 100 tons of coal
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12:55<nekomaster>even with a 450 HP engine
12:55<@Alberth>decrease freight multiplier :)
12:55<nekomaster>that only applies to rail vehicles
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12:55<nekomaster>I'm not seeing a weight multipler like x2 on my trucks
12:56<@Alberth>it's in the settings
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12:56<nekomaster>what settings? openttd settings or road hog parameters?
12:56<@Alberth>openttd settings
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12:56<nekomaster>Yeah, it says Weight multiplier for frieght to simulate HEAVY TRAINS
12:56<@Alberth>or do freight multiplier settings only apply to trains? I hope not
12:57<nekomaster>trains only
12:57<@peter1138>there's a separate setting for trucks
12:57<@Alberth>:o sorry for the noise
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12:57<nekomaster>its ok
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12:57<@peter1138>or at least i thought there was :p
12:57<nekomaster>but no, the trucks have a 100 ton capacity thanks to andy's shinadigans
12:57<@peter1138>ah no, i was thinking of the slope
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12:58<nekomaster>I wonder how I should procced from here, because I'd rather work with a clean slate rather then say, adding stuff to road hog at the moment
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12:59<nekomaster>PLus another issue is that if I make a Semi-Generic American Road Vehicle set, now i have to make graphics... blargh
12:59<nekomaster>i hate doing sprites
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13:00<Wolf01> is cat?
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13:01<nekomaster>nope, its your imagination
13:01<nekomaster>there is no cat there
13:01<nekomaster>just lots of fuz
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13:07<andythenorth>nekomaster: to start again, you’d need a new roster
13:08<andythenorth>you don’t have to use Road Hog, I just wanted to show you the option :)
13:08<nekomaster>well if roadhog can easily deal with all kinds of sizes, it might be nice
13:08<andythenorth>dlite: you have to make a second station
13:08<andythenorth>it’s one of the annoying things about supplies
13:11<nekomaster>Hmm, I wonder when the Semi-Trailer generations should start, techincally Mack started selling Articulated trucks in the 30's and 40s, but 18-wheeler culture didn't start until the 70's
13:12<nekomaster>having Semi-trailers start in the 70's could keep them from overlapping with the Rigid trucks as well
13:12<Samu>what does it mean Identifier not found... damn it
13:13<Samu>Severity Code Description Project File Line Suppression State Error C3861 'GetAvailShipTracks': identifier not found openttd D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ship_cmd.cpp 155
13:13<andythenorth>nekomaster: all articulated, all the way...
13:13<nekomaster>andythenorth: Remember, not all trucks in North America are 18-wheelers
13:14<nekomaster>most of the trucks I see in the city are things like 5-ton trucks/rigid trucks
13:14<nekomaster>Its only on the major roads that I see the majority of 18-wheelers passing through oshawa
13:14<@Alberth>Samu, perhaps GetAvailShipTracks does not exist?
13:15<Samu>Severity Code Description Project File Line Suppression State Error (active) argument of type "const Ship *" is incompatible with parameter of type "Ship *" openttd d:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ship_cmd.cpp 159
13:16<@Alberth>const Ship and Ship are different, the former has an additional promise you won't change the content of Ship
13:17<@Alberth>so you cannot use a const Ship as substitute for a Ship, since the code using the latter may make a modification
13:18<@peter1138>"Dear uploader, your heightmap is broken"
13:18<Samu>i see, it seems i can't use these then
13:18<Samu>i don't want to change ship
13:22<@Alberth>either find a pointer that is not const, or change the code of the sub-routine to take a const Ship pointer
13:22<@Alberth>latter is likely non-trivial
13:23<@Alberth>(adding "const" is easy, but making it compile again can be difficult)
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13:25<Samu>i'm not really sure what I want though
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13:26<nekomaster>Another thing that will be difficult with making an American style Road vehicle set is what to add without being too much for me to handle
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13:26<nekomaster>but I really want to add things like Cargo Vans and Delivery Trucks/Cube Vans for town cargo stuff, as well as seperate Mail and Armored Trucks
13:27<nekomaster>on top of the Steam, Early Petrol, Rigid, Semi-Trailer, and Double's Truck's
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13:33<nekomaster>hmm, is andy still around?
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13:36<nekomaster>I wonder if Road hog's code can also handle stuff like Light Rail Transit and metro stuff
13:36<nekomaster>Then again not like theres too much LRT stuff in north america
13:36<@Alberth>but he may be busy, if you're in no hurry, just type "andy" and the words you want to say, and wait
13:36<nekomaster>I'm in no hurry
13:37<@Alberth>if you need him specifically, and now, then mention his username, and he'll get highlighted
13:37<nekomaster>Yeah, I know
13:37<nekomaster>I've been around on IRC since 2008
13:37<nekomaster>mostly on FurAffinity though
13:37<@Alberth>andy tends to leave and join again multiple times during the day :)
13:38<andythenorth>I tend to go away and placate screaming children
13:38<@Alberth>so when he's not available, a feasible strategy is to wait until he joins again
13:38<andythenorth>or rescue them from disasters
13:38<nekomaster>you have kids?
13:38<andythenorth>at least 1, not more than 2
13:39<@Alberth>excluding firs, roadhog, ironhorse, and squid :p
13:39<nekomaster>andythenorth: Hey Andy, if your there can Roadhog Handle Subways/metro stuff? I've already seen that we can have many trailers added to trucks/trams, but can we have length refits like in HEQS?
13:39<andythenorth>no, I think they’re weird :)
13:40<andythenorth>refits using cargo subtype are usually a bad idea
13:40<andythenorth>although they’re in unsinkable sam :(
13:40<andythenorth>and I don’t like it, but eh
13:40<andythenorth>needs must
13:41<nekomaster>I would like to have Metro stuff on tramlines, that way in the future if someone makes an elevated rail hack for RATT's then I'll have something
13:41<nekomaster>plus I always wanted american style blocky subways
13:41<nekomaster>great for local metro stuff
13:41<andythenorth>if you want metro as trams, just use the trams ;)
13:42<andythenorth>should be fine
13:42<nekomaster>I do plan on having american styled Streetcars
13:43<andythenorth>it took a long time to do Road Hog, I’d set a limited goal ;)
13:43<andythenorth>first commit was 2013, and released last year, so ~3 years
13:43<andythenorth>with Dan helping
13:44<nekomaster>Well at the moment I'd at least like to get the Early, Rigid, Semi-Trailers and maybe Doubles going
13:44<andythenorth>I would do buses or trucks
13:44<nekomaster>oh yes, I keep forgetting about he busses
13:44<andythenorth>buses are quite forgetable
13:44<nekomaster>only thing is though about early stuff is they're so weird
13:44<nekomaster>tiny hoods and curvy blocky bodies
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13:45<nekomaster>like 1910's or 1920's trucks/buses
13:45<andythenorth>PITA to draw
13:45<nekomaster>funny thing is that in the past I was able to do sprites but not code
13:45<nekomaster>but now I loath doing sprites
13:45<andythenorth>the Honister dump truck would give you a basic 6 axle rigid bonnet truck from 1940s-1960s
13:45<andythenorth>looks like a GMC
13:47<nekomaster>Yeah, probably more 60's style
13:47<andythenorth>or more like a mack even
13:47<nekomaster>Trucks from the 40's and 50's where more curvy
13:47<andythenorth>that’s 1995 ^
13:49<nekomaster>For Cargo Vans, heres an example of what I'd like to add :
13:52<nekomaster>Looks like the current best Mercedes Sprinter (the 3500 Super-high roof) can haul up to 2.5 tons of goods IRL, though I wonder how much I could fudge that number to make it worth while for a light route ingame
13:52<nekomaster>Being a current generation Cargo Van, perhaps 4-8 Tons?
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14:03<andythenorth>I wouldn’t do less than 15
14:03<andythenorth>probably 20t
14:04<andythenorth>there’s a capacity parameter for people who want more realistic
14:04<nekomaster>Heres some stuff I was thinking of doing over time
14:04<nekomaster>I'd rather keep cargo vans and delievery trucks as small light duty stuff, perhaps for serving small towns or low output industry
14:05<nekomaster>But for anything more you'll want to go for Rigid or Semi-Trailer trucks
14:05<andythenorth>the trade off I see is this
14:05<andythenorth>1. small vehicles don’t get used
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14:05<andythenorth>2. drawing vehicles is boring
14:05<andythenorth>conclusion: don’t draw any that won’t be used
14:06<nekomaster>well for now thats why I just want to focus on the regular trucks
14:06<andythenorth>but I had to learn the hard way :P
14:06<andythenorth>so many deleted sprites :P
14:06<nekomaster>Oh and busses
14:08<nekomaster>I'm the kind of person that likes to add lots of things, even if they wont always be used
14:08<nekomaster>Thats kind of why I made the NARS addon set to add more north american locomotives
14:14<andythenorth>such drawing
14:15<nekomaster>Well thats why for now I'll just be focusing on the more important stuff that players will probably use
14:17<@peter1138>4096x4096, such embigness
14:17<andythenorth>nekomaster: if you draw a sleeper behind the neko truck, you pretty much have a peterbilt or kenworth
14:17<andythenorth>peter1138: how silly
14:17<andythenorth>are you testing how improved rivers work on big maps? o_O
14:18<nekomaster>well i guess its "go big or go home"
14:19*andythenorth goes back to yak-shaving forests
14:23<@peter1138>"very low" towns is still far too much on this size
14:23<@peter1138>maybe due to the amount of water, i dunno
14:23<@peter1138>does that scale? i guess not
14:24<andythenorth>doesn’t scale with water
14:24<andythenorth>I sometimes use bigger map and lots of water to get industry density I want
14:26<andythenorth>bloody slopes :P
14:26*andythenorth has a solution for that, it’s just tedious to test
14:26<nekomaster>what are you trying to do?
14:26<nekomaster>slope aware forests?
14:26<andythenorth>slope aware forests with the trees in the right place
14:26<andythenorth>it’s been buggy in FIRS for years
14:27<andythenorth>it’s just offsets
14:27<nekomaster>Another thing is with a North american vehicle set, I wonder which generations/decades I should go with for each type of vehicle
14:27<@peter1138>i like low density
14:27<andythenorth>nekomaster: new generation about 30 years
14:28<andythenorth>I never solved that tbh though
14:28<andythenorth>every grf is either too long to wait, or too many new vehicles in a short time
14:28<nekomaster>I was thinking for Internal combustion engine busses, it would be maybe 1890, 1900, 1915, and 1930
14:29<nekomaster>After which busses start taking on the shapes we know in america today
14:31<nekomaster>But after the "early" generation, I dunno which decade to really start with, be it 1940 or 1950, I was thinking that the First generation of rear engined busses would start with something like the GMC Old looks
14:31<nekomaster>And the last would be something from today
14:33<@Alberth>andy, have you ever tried replacing 1 engine every decade or so, so you have a new generation for all train types in 30 or so years?
14:34<@peter1138>andythenorth, "maximum coastal distance" in firs, is that actually from the coast, or from the edge of the map?
14:34<andythenorth>probably the coast, but eh
14:34<andythenorth>let me look
14:35<nekomaster>Hmm... can Road Hog do Articulated busses?
14:35<andythenorth>hmm is that the right check for FIRS?
14:35*andythenorth looks more
14:38<andythenorth>not sure what that check does
14:38<andythenorth>I didn’t write it
14:38<andythenorth>I suppose I could read nml docs eh
14:39<andythenorth>"If the industry is built on water, this variable gives the distance of the closest dry land tile, otherwise it gives the distance of the closest water tile."
14:39<andythenorth>so it’s a flip-flop check, depending on current tile type
14:39<andythenorth>I love that crap :|
14:40<nekomaster>You seem to hate a lot of things you've had a hand in making
14:41<@peter1138>stuck on industry generation now ;(
14:42<@peter1138>ah there it goes
14:42<andythenorth>so yeah, that is a max distance check
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14:42<andythenorth>nekomaster: articulated buses, you just add more units
14:43<andythenorth>consist.add_unit() adds an articulated part
14:43<nekomaster>Because I was thinking perhaps maybe having Single Unit Local Busses and Articulated Local buses, and dropping the regional busses because it seems like most transit companies in North america use the same kind of bus for regional and local routes
14:44<andythenorth>try it with one of the buses, like the glenmore
14:44<andythenorth>oh you’d have to modify the spritesheet actually
14:44<andythenorth>if you do add_unit() you have to give it sprites
14:44<andythenorth>if you do ‘repeat = x’ then it will repeat the unit with same sprites
14:45<andythenorth>there are no docs or anything for this though, just the code :P
14:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27828 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2017-03-25 19:45:40 +0100 )
14:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
14:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: croatian: 2 changes by VoyagerOne
14:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: italian: 6 changes by lorenzodv
14:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: english (us): 15 changes by Supercheese
14:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
14:46<@Alberth>and andy, as walking documentation :)
14:47<nekomaster>Also I probably wont be adding double decker buses, except maybe for the last (current day) generation of Coaches
14:47<@Alberth>or perhaps more appropriate, as walking oracle :p
14:47<@peter1138>hmm, game freezes
14:47<nekomaster>Where I live I've noticed more and more Double Decker GO Buses (regional/intercity bus company)
14:47<@peter1138>maybe 4096x4096 firs is not a good idea :p
14:49<andythenorth>what did you do to it? :(
14:50*andythenorth test
14:50<andythenorth>20k industries is totally ridiculous
14:50<andythenorth>even AI won’t build 20k stations
14:50<andythenorth>and map-gen is so slow
14:51<@peter1138>it was a heightmap
14:51<nekomaster>Hmm... I guess if I can't find any "early" american buses, perhaps I have to make some fake american looking ones?
14:51<@peter1138>i think what i actually want is a crop of the heightmap
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14:57<@peter1138>i guess autorefit only works if the station already has cargo waiting
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15:01<andythenorth>station refit?
15:01<andythenorth>to fixed cargo, or ‘any available’?
15:05<@peter1138>Samu, is a buoy a suitable site for an industry?
15:14<nekomaster>I wonder how I should go about selecting busses to base designs and generations off of
15:14<nekomaster>I know that for Coach busses, they should start in 1955 with something that looks like a GMC Scenicruiser
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15:17<andythenorth>nekomaster: I would select them by finding existing sprites :P
15:17*andythenorth is lazy
15:17<nekomaster>well I want my sprites to match the size and "style" of Road Hog
15:18<nekomaster>Though the Coach busses might end up having to be say, 8/8
15:18<nekomaster>they tend to be rather long
15:18<nekomaster>and usually have tandem axels
15:20<nekomaster>It'd be nice if there where some "Bus" fans around that I could ask about popular/note worthy transit and coach buses
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15:35<Samu>peter1138: are you talking about the bug i reported?
15:36<Wolf01>What else?
15:36<Samu>it's the special water tile check
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15:36<Samu>the oil rig isn't built on them, but it requires checking if the nearby tiles are water
15:37<Samu>buoys, for this case, are water
15:37<Samu>but since the tile type of buoys is not water, it denies oil rig from spawning there
15:38<Wolf01>The problem is that OTTD is very inconsistent in many cases, this is one of them: you can't spawn an oilrig next to a buoy but you can place a buoy next to an oilrig
15:38<Wolf01>I found problems with docks too, where you can remove all the water after building the dock
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15:41<nekomaster>Heres an interesting thing for a North American commuter transit company
15:41<Wolf01>I think the building condition should persist even after the building, but it's really tricky in some situations
15:41<nekomaster>its interesting seeing these green GO Transit double deckers zooming along at 60-80 Km\h
15:41<nekomaster>My dad likes the top front view
15:50<nekomaster>Possible Coach bus Generations?
15:50<andythenorth>15 years is close
15:51<andythenorth>@calc 2015-1945
15:51<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 70
15:51<andythenorth>@calc 70./4
15:51<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 17.5
15:51<nekomaster>Yeah but Coaches as we know it today didn't really start happening in USA until the 40's with the ACF-Brill
15:52<nekomaster>I basically picked what was a fast and comfy coach style bus
15:52<nekomaster>rather then some "fancy spruced up" Transit bus
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16:09<@peter1138>Samu, but I can build an oilrig next to a buoy without the patch?
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16:36<Samu>you need to look at the layout
16:37<Samu>it was in some wiki
16:40<Samu>im trying to find...
16:42<Samu>can't find the wiki...
16:43<Samu>this is the layout for oil ring, xx is where it checks for water
16:43<@peter1138>but not all the intermediate tiles? odd
16:44<nekomaster>Wheres the link for the Road and Tram Types build?
16:44<Samu>yeah it's a strange layout
16:45<Samu>this layout was in some wiki page, i can't remember where
16:45<Samu>i got it from there
16:45<@peter1138>It's in src/table/build_industry.h
16:45<Samu>yes, also there
16:46<Samu>but hard to visualise
16:46<@peter1138>Wonder if it should all the tiles...
16:47<@peter1138>Also would be funny to have the check when terraforming
16:51<andythenorth>so why is there malware in the FIRS pngs?
16:51<supermop_home>need a cool sort of metabolist image to have printed on my phone case
16:52<andythenorth>my OS must be smoking crack
16:52<supermop_home>I feel like best way to acheive is to create a town set of abstract vector inspired houses
16:52<supermop_home>and then try to get a neat town to grow
16:53<supermop_home>andy - if openttd is a gpl'd program
16:53<supermop_home>does any image created by the game become gpl itself?
16:55<supermop_home>also the tower is only really brutalist under construction - at least in it's current state with all the verandas enclosed it just looks generic
16:55<andythenorth>supermop: no absolutely not
16:56<andythenorth>does anything created on linux become GPL?
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16:56<supermop_home>ok lets split some more hairs then:
16:56<supermop_home>can a newgrf have gpl code and non gpl sprites?
16:56<supermop_home>the resulting grf becoming gpl
16:57<supermop_home>does that retroactively require the sprites to become gpl?
16:57<andythenorth>newgrf is compiled
16:57<andythenorth>it’s not quite an executable binary, but it’s a compiled package
16:58<andythenorth>it’s GPL
16:58<supermop_home>or can I as holder of copywrite on sprites grant a specific license to them to be used in a gpl project without releasig the sprites under gpl
16:58<supermop_home>so it is not just derivative work, but also constituent work?
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17:00<andythenorth>you can release the sprites under other licenses, but you can’t escape GPL if it’s a GPL newgrf
17:00<eekee_>gpl is not intended to (and i believe cannot) restrict the rights of the person who placed them under the gpl
17:01<eekee_>s/them/his work/
17:01<supermop_home>so releasing a later derivative work under gpl would retroactively force all prior contributive works to also take a GPL license?
17:01<eekee_>hell no
17:02<eekee_>i've heard that even the gpl's linking clause may be unenforcable, although that may be different in different US states
17:03<eekee_>in general though, once you've released something, you can't retroactively specify a licence
17:03<supermop_home>in the past I have, and in the future I plan to, created abstracted giclee prints of various metabolist and brutalist architectural inspiration
17:04<supermop_home>none of which have been GPL, - in fact they have been in editions of 10 or 50, and sold when possible
17:05<eekee_>i doubt there's any legal system anywhere on earth which says someone else applying the gpl to your work could restrict yuour rights
17:05<supermop_home>I would like to create similar art, but at the scale and constraints of an openttd spritesheet
17:05<eekee_>and i'm sure i've read richard stallman saying the gpl is not intended to restrict the author's rights
17:06<eekee_>some propaganda might imply it does, but that's just the fsf being overly aggressive
17:06<supermop_home>and use the mechanism of a town newgrf to aggregate such sprites into urban looking groups
17:07<supermop_home>being able to re use town newgrf code would greatly help
17:07<supermop_home>additionally, releasing the resultant grf would be nice
17:07<eekee_>so it's your art, you hold the copyright. you can release it under gpl and under another licence, however you like
17:08<eekee_>there are programs and whole operating systems which you can get under the gpl or a commercial license :)
17:08<supermop_home>but if my goal is to use sprite->newgrf->game->town->screenshot-> print/other artwork
17:09<supermop_home>do I maintain any copywrite control of that final artwork?
17:09<eekee_>ah... screenshots i don't know about :)
17:11<supermop_home>I can write new nml from the specs if I must
17:11<Samu>I'm working on a "FindClosestReachableShipDepot"
17:11<andythenorth>supermop: if you want to control it, don’t use a GPL newgrf
17:11<andythenorth>make a private one
17:11<Samu>i'm failing at the ship pathfinder, there's even 3 pathfinders
17:11<Samu>started with yapf
17:11<eekee_>the worst thing about teh gpl is it scares people like this
17:11<Samu>but i'm stuck
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17:12<supermop_home>can I still release that under a more restrictive license?
17:12<supermop_home>eekee_ I am happy with gpl for 90+% of what I do
17:12<eekee_>supermop_home: me too
17:12<@peter1138>What was the concensus on 90 degree pathfinding for ships?
17:13<@peter1138>Concensus in ottd, hahah
17:13<nekomaster>I'm ok with GPL so long as people are ok with what I do
17:13<supermop_home>and it is reassuring knowing that work I do will not be useless if I get tired of it and abandon it
17:13<eekee_>peter1138: last i saw, it was merged with the 90 degree train turning option
17:14<frosch123>probably it was like that in ttdp, and someone just did the same
17:14<supermop_home>i am not expecting to monetize any newgrf generative artwork, but for purposes of portfolio inclusion I feel it would be easier if it was clear cut
17:15<andythenorth>peter1138: forbidding 90 degree pathfinding breaks the game
17:15<andythenorth>apparently that’s 'fine'
17:15<andythenorth>but eh
17:15<eekee_>who's going to make a fuss if you've got something which might by some stretch be gpl'd in your portfolio?
17:15<frosch123>andythenorth: why does it?
17:15<andythenorth>possibly we could rename the setting :D
17:15<andythenorth>ships get lost on rivers frequently
17:16<andythenorth>probably I am the only player in the world using ships on rivers :)
17:16<eekee_>no, i do too
17:16<frosch123>with 90 degree forbidden ships cannot reverse on two tile rivers, with 90 degree forbidden ships cannot reverse on one tile rivers
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17:17<eekee_>i use buoys, but often not as many as i expect to need
17:17<frosch123>so it only makes a difference if you build two tile things instead of one or three tile things
17:17<andythenorth>two-tile wide?
17:18<andythenorth>that might explain it
17:18<andythenorth>only way to build docks on rivers is two widen them to 2 tiles
17:18<eekee_>reverse? my experience is ships reverse anywhere they can't actually turn
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17:18<eekee_>but i usually make dock space 3x3 :)
17:18<andythenorth>and the problem mostly occurs leaving docks and turning the wrong direction
17:19<frosch123>same happens for one tile things
17:19<eekee_>buoys :)
17:19<frosch123>it just means that the ship will reverse
17:19<frosch123>as in 180 degree reverse
17:19<andythenorth>tropic doesn’t make rivers? o_O
17:19*andythenorth never noticed that
17:19<frosch123>it does
17:19<frosch123>it even removes desert around them
17:19<andythenorth>the code says that
17:19<frosch123>i have seen it
17:19<andythenorth>oh it made 1
17:20<frosch123>though ofc mhl may have broken it :p
17:20<andythenorth>I found it
17:20<frosch123>mhl may have broken everything
17:20<andythenorth>512x512 map, 1 river :P
17:20<andythenorth>it’s probably just too flat to locate any springs? o_O
17:22<andythenorth>do I have some local bug? o_O
17:22<frosch123>andythenorth: disable variety distribution
17:22<frosch123>set max height to 16
17:22<nekomaster>I wonder if I should add a school bus or two as a bit of a joke transit option
17:22*andythenorth tries
17:22<eekee_>include a short bus :)
17:23<nekomaster>A long bus a mini-bus
17:23<andythenorth>frosch123: surprising difference eh
17:23<andythenorth>try it on height 32
17:23<nekomaster>12 and 24 passenger capacity, provides increased incomes
17:23<Samu>i like the idea of forbidden 90 degrees for ships, but only as a separate setting from trains
17:23<eekee_>Samu: yeah, separating them is good
17:24<Samu>sometimes i want 90 degrees for trains but not for ships
17:24<Samu>i made a patch about it, posted in the forum the other day
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17:26<Samu>hmm, so i made the pathfinder do a FindPath to I have no idea where... I'm so bad at this
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17:26<Samu>the result however is that it couldn't find a path
17:27<andythenorth>such bedtime
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17:51<@peter1138>Was there ever a daylength patch that didn't screw up the economy?
17:54<Wolf01>I was working on it, lost interest
17:54<Supercheese>although it depends on what's considered a bug and what's considered a feature
17:54<Wolf01>Lost the patch too
17:54<@peter1138>Just trying out the one in JGR's pack.
17:56<@peter1138>I guess: payment rates will be higher as it takes less days to travel
17:56<@peter1138>But also, it takes longer to produce cargo in the first time
17:59<Wolf01>Just see it based on real time: at 1x you produce 100t/month/1-minute, with 4x you produce 400t/month/4-minute -> 100t/minute won't change
18:00<Wolf01>Same happen for cargo payment, running costs...
18:00<Wolf01>All gets scaled
18:01<Wolf01>The only real change is that new vehicles will be introduced 4 times late
18:01<Wolf01>Also vehicle life in real time is 4 times longer
18:02<Wolf01>But for game time is the same, 1x or 4x doesn't matter, ok, you will get rich early (game date) but you have played for the same time (real time)
18:07<@peter1138>Not with this patch.
18:07<@peter1138>This one basically suspends all but vehicle ticks.
18:07<Wolf01>That's mine wanted-to-be implementation
18:07<nekomaster>Ungh, sometimes I hate trying to research really old vehicles
18:08<nekomaster>its like anything before 1920 is wiped off the face of the earth
18:08<Wolf01>Eh, no internet back in those days ;)
18:09<nekomaster>but you can't tell me that no pictures, books, documents, anything on paper didn't exist or survive?
18:09<Wolf01>Maybe noone gave a fuck
18:09<nekomaster>i guess so
18:09<nekomaster>"righty o! lets just toss these schematics and specs into the fire ol chap!"
18:09<nekomaster>-dumb ass bus designer cira 1910
18:11<Wolf01>It was a time where new, better things were developed every odd day, so why keep useless schematics and pictures?
18:11<Wolf01>It's at our day we have nostalgia of those things
18:12<nekomaster>like all I wanted to do was try and find some evidance of any motor buses from 1890 to 1925
18:12<@peter1138>Clearly we have too much free time.
18:12<nekomaster>basically what ever came before the Ford Model TT bus in 1917
18:12<nekomaster>in america
18:12<nekomaster>I should mention I'm looking for Motor Buses in America before 1925
18:13<@peter1138>Maybe there wasn't any!
18:13<Wolf01>Maybe nothing... they used trams
18:13<nekomaster>but it looks like that it was mostly tram or horse up until stuff like the Model TT Bus came out
18:13<Wolf01>Or horses, or feet
18:13<nekomaster>I guess for my Generic American Road Vehicle Set, I'll just have to make up some fictional ye olde 1900's style bus
18:14<@peter1138>Cool swedish bus with skis...
18:15<@peter1138>But that's 1920. And not American.
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18:15<Wolf01> did you read this?
18:16<nekomaster>I have not seen that
18:17<nekomaster>and I know that Trams where a bit thing int he late 1800's across the world including USA and Canada
18:17<nekomaster>Even Toronto had some early street car stuff before electrification
18:17<Wolf01>It seem everyone used trams or own cars, cabs and bicycles
18:17<Wolf01>There is no mention of buses in early 1900
18:18<nekomaster>Yeah, I guess the idea of a Motor Bus/Coach wasn't big with Americans at the time
18:18<nekomaster>I believe there are some early steam and petrol busses in the 1890's or 1900's
18:18<nekomaster>but mostly in europe
18:19<Wolf01>"Buses began replacing trolleys in the 1910s. "
18:19<nekomaster>Hmm, yeah, seems like the first mass produced Motor buses where produced in 1910's, the B-type double decker
18:20<nekomaster>but this is America! hell I didn't start seeing double decker buses in Canada until go transit started buying and running double decker coaches from 2008 onwards
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18:25<nekomaster>Perhaps I'll just have horses or steam wagons take up that 1900 spot for early buses
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18:44<nekomaster>or I could just steal the Daimler/Benz Omnibus
18:44<nekomaster>for a 1900's bus, and I'll slap American flags across it!
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18:49<nekomaster>So heres a rough list of Bus Generations for my Generic American Road Vehicle Set
18:53<Wolf01>Nice collection of buses... do you plan to add trucks and trams as well?
18:53<nekomaster>Of course
18:53<nekomaster>I'm just getting stuff in order before I start trying to make some crappy sprites that I really don't want to draw because I'd rather be coding then drawing right now
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18:54<nekomaster>Also I'm using those buses as references for designs, not using the actual buses themselves
18:54<nekomaster>Kinda like how Road Hog's British roster might look like some things you know from the UK
18:54<Wolf01>Use colour filled boxes as placeholders
18:54<nekomaster>I'd rather have a crappily drawn sprite and the dates all set out
18:55<nekomaster>thats another thing too, I'm setting up the generations based on when those buses where built/available
18:55<nekomaster>so not all dates are their build dates, and some are a bit early
18:55<Wolf01>It would be nice to have it compatible with NRT too
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18:55<Wolf01>Trolleybuses and steam trams
18:56<nekomaster>I might not do trolly busses
18:56<nekomaster>they're not a huge thing around the world, I mean only a couple cities in North AMerica use them
18:56<nekomaster>like Vancouver
18:56<nekomaster>And most places seem to keep the same trolly buses for a long time
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19:14<nekomaster>now i have to find a bunch of trucks...
19:15<nekomaster>and to make things interesting... perhaps a different truck for each kind of truck for each generation
19:15<nekomaster>So the 1950's trucks will all look different
19:15<Wolf01>Good luck
19:15<nekomaster>variety is the spice of life
19:15<nekomaster>I'll just google things like 1950's tanker trucks
19:16<nekomaster>and see what pops up for companies like Kenworth, Ford, Petterbuilt, etc
19:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r27829 trunk/src/gfx_func.h (2017-03-26 00:19:41 +0100 )
19:19<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r27821): Occasional crash caused by mixing int/uint arithmetic.
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19:33<supermop_home>no good fonts for new resume
19:33<Wolf01>Mi resume "please hire me" in Arial 48, bold
19:34<Wolf01>I'm really tired this night
19:34<supermop_home>try 72 bold
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19:38<paooolino>Hello all
19:39<paooolino>anyone successfully compiled openttd using MS VS2017?
19:41<Wolf01>Not yet, I'm scared of upgrading my VS2015
19:44<paooolino>i'll try to see if I can install VS2015 then
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19:53<Wolf01> nice
19:56<Wolf01>Bed is calling... must resist
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19:57<Eddi|zuHause>don't forget to switch the time
19:57<Wolf01>Oh, devices do it automagically
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>some do some don't
19:58<Wolf01>Like my alarm clock and car's clock
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>... or the local church's clock :p
19:58<Wolf01>But I don't use the alarm clock and car clock is already offset to an unknown time
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>and the worst part, on monday i have to be at a meeting earlier than usual
19:59<Wolf01>But I won't be the one in charge to change the time on church's clock... we don't even have a church's clock
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>and "usual" is also already earlier than i'd like
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>so it's now triple early
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20:28<Samu>holy crap, I did it!
20:28<Samu>but only for yapf
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21:17<Samu>my extreme copy paste skills allowed me to create a "FindClosestReachableShipDepot" feature for Yapf,
21:18<Samu>peter1138: u awake?
21:18<Samu>take a look and tell me how bad it is
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23:54<nekomaster>I can't believe I actually went and passed out
---Logclosed Sun Mar 26 00:00:41 2017