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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-04-14

---Logopened Fri Apr 14 00:00:07 2017
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03:31<andythenorth>such test games are needed
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03:31<Wolf01>Yeah, also test
03:31*andythenorth made a lot of FIRS changes without testing yet
03:31<Arveen>g'morning d00ds
03:32<Wolf01>*also unit tests
03:32<Wolf01>I was thinking about a functional test framework for grfs
03:34<Wolf01>The problem of everything I think about is that points to a modular code :(
03:35<Wolf01>Like using the OTTD code for (external) tools
03:37<Wolf01>We could always have internal ones, like the sprite aligner etc
03:55<Wolf01>Mmmh, I'm still with the idea that yesterday was friday and today is saturday
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04:05<Eddi|zuHause>try this: yesterday was friday, and today is also friday
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>or today is both friday and sunday
04:06<Wolf01>Eh, totally not sunday, I don't want to lose another day XD
04:11<argoneus>is anyone here using win10?
04:12<Wolf01>Nope, I don't see anyone, but I'm using it
04:12<argoneus>did you have trouble updating
04:12<argoneus>to creators update
04:12<Wolf01>Only 1 hour wasted
04:12<argoneus>it kept freezing for me
04:12<argoneus>you'd never guess what the solution was
04:12<argoneus>I had to remove the sata cable from my dvd drive
04:13<Wolf01>Usually are external drives the problem
04:13<argoneus>but why
04:13<Wolf01>To avoid it I usually unplug them before the update, but this time I forgot and it was fine
04:14<Wolf01>Do you have any specific driver installed for the dvd drive?
04:15<Wolf01>Dunno, then
04:16<Wolf01>I have another problem instead... I can't purchase the endless space dlc because it's now included in the collection, and they didn't unlock it for me :(
04:20*andythenorth might add industrial trains to Road Hog
04:20<andythenorth>separate to trams
04:20<andythenorth>just to mess with people :P
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: doesn't steam offer you a "complete your collection" package?
04:27<Wolf01>I already have the game
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, go to the game's store website
04:27<Wolf01>The dlc is now part of the game edition I purchased back in 2012
04:28<Eddi|zuHause>go to game properties and recheck data?
04:28<Eddi|zuHause>or talk to steam support
04:29<Wolf01>Tried everything, check game files, re-log in steam, ask for help... they said to remove the game from the library and purchase it again...
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>then try to get it refunded
04:30<Wolf01>Ok, it's 1€, but I have some more content which I purchased with the game and I don't know if it's included in the new packet
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04:32<Eddi|zuHause>i think there's a "the game is now cheaper than when i bought it" option for refunds
04:32<Wolf01>There is :D
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>which probably applies if you refund all the dlcs
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>and buy the new base game
04:33<Wolf01>There is no more the base game, only the "complete collection"
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>and if you put the collection into the cart, it doesn't only get the missing dlcs?
04:35<Wolf01>No, it's not a bundle
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'd try the refund-game-and-all-dlcs way
04:41<Wolf01>I'll try
04:58<argoneus>I wish I could be a neet
04:58<argoneus>whenever I feel like doing something fun like coding something for openttd or other games
04:59<argoneus>I'm usually tired from the day
05:02<Wolf01>At least you don't panic when you start try to code something
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05:03<Wolf01>I'm like this for a week so far... I open VS, look at the code, panic, and leave it minimized
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05:10<Samu>i'm currently trying a patch to generate lock friendly town bridges over rivers
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05:17<Wolf01>BTW Eddi|zuHause, Transport Fever is now officially playable
05:22<Wolf01> :O
05:23<Wolf01> LOL
05:23<Wolf01>We need one for OTTD too
05:24<Arveen>what does officially playable mean ?
05:25<Arveen>was there a patch of interest ?
05:25<Wolf01>You can play it without figuring why things don't work because stupid limitations, like terraforming near roads/tracks
05:25<Wolf01>Also they finally added double-slip junctions
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i've even seen some of that original episode with the cars on tracks :p
05:26<Wolf01>It still miss one way roads and a sort of traffic control on road crossings (with enough traffic it seem to be like in India)
05:26<Arveen>i was kind of interested in this game until i noticed the way how trains work is not like ottd
05:27<Wolf01>Also now it's finally possible to force replace the vehicles
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>Arveen: how is that a problem?
05:28<Arveen>i like to build ottdcoop like networks
05:28<Samu>damn asserts
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>coop's a bit tricky without multiplayer :p
05:28<Wolf01>Eh :D
05:29<Wolf01>I would like to have an italian train set...
05:29<Arveen>i did not look the game up after its initial release but back then it looked to me like you cant build complex networks
05:30<Wolf01>Oh, you can, but they might not be profitable
05:30<Samu>why am I getting an assert
05:30<Samu>IsValidTile(bridge_tile + delta_side) && IsWaterTile(bridge_tile + delta) && IsInclinedSlope(GetTileSlope(bridge_tile + delta_side)) && IsRiver(bridge_tile + delta_side)
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>the biggest problems with complex networks were that you couldn't put switches and bridges where you wanted them
05:31<Samu>ah, i see
05:31<Samu>delta_side check
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>always some weird "slope too steep" or "pillar collision" or just general "collision" errors
05:31<Samu>is wrong
05:32<Wolf01>They reduced those problems, now you are more freedom
05:32<Samu>i was adding the wrong delta :(
05:34<Samu>generating a 4k map
05:34<Samu>let's see if it doesn't error now
05:37<@Alberth>wolf, just delete the code ?
05:37<Wolf01>Eh ;D
05:38<Wolf01>BTW, Arveen, the biggest difference with OTTD is that lines use only one platform in stations, so you can't have 25346 trains for the same line waiting in the station, and doesn't make sense to have them
05:39<Arveen>ah yeah, i think that was another thing i noticed when watching some twitch streams
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you cannot "load balance" between two platforms, that is a bit annoying if you have many lines that arrive infrequently
05:40<Wolf01>Build more platforms
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>or one line that is really frequent
05:41<Wolf01>Build yards before stations
05:41<Wolf01>And use lots of waypoints :D
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>"one platform per line" is a bit space-inefficient
05:42<Samu>generating 8192 rivers and 12032 towns
05:42<Samu>ought to be enough to check if it asserts or not
05:43<Wolf01>I have 5 trains on a steel mill, 3 steel and 2 iron ore, the station in just 2 platforms, the incoming track is split in 2 with waypoints and signals to accomodate 2 trains so it won't block the other route
05:44<Wolf01>And since it almost matches my OTTD game style, I'm not so baffled about having stations with 2 platforms, or even one
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not worried about putting 3 input lines on 1 platform, and 2 output lines on 1 platform.
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'm worried about 5 input lines on 3 platforms
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>which are not synchronized, so however you distribute them, 2 trains will eventually arrive to the same platform
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>and then the second train will wait there, while another platform clearly is free
05:48<Wolf01>Oh, the most annoying thing of all: stations are separate between freight and pax, trains can enter each station (and have the wrong type in the orders too)
05:50<Wolf01>I usually have that problem with these stations, as I build them in couple, so I can't even upgrade them because they block each other and I end up with like 6 lines in 2 platforms
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's so easy to put down the wrong station
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't change over to the other type
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>and you cannot rebuild them, because they have slightly different layouts
05:52<Wolf01> <- I usually end up with this shit :D
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>link is probably incomplete
05:55<__ln__>Not found
05:55<Wolf01>Is steam stupid? I'm copying the entire link
05:57<Wolf01> foook traffic
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's a nice and tidy stockpile there :p
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>and that definitely needs a more elaborate crossing
05:58<Wolf01>It needs traffic lights, roundabouts and oneway roads
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>that was also the first mod i downloaded for cities:skylines, allowing to modify crossings to forbid left turns and stuff
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>nothing worse than a 6 lane road which blocks because some random guy wanted to turn left and block 3 opposing lanes
06:00<Wolf01>On the first image, top-right, I destroyed that intersection and made it as a complete overpass with 4 ramps, but cars still keep use the wrong ramps :(
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>i've not actually played much beyond 1950
06:01<Wolf01>They should implement "prefer turn right if you can reach the same destination"
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>so i didn't encounter that type of traffic problems
06:03<Wolf01>I'm playing with "daylength" at 4x or 8x, this save has something like 40 hours on it and I just arrived to 1992
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07:48<Wolf01>I should do some of this stuff
07:52<@Alberth>standard unix configuration :)
07:58<Wolf01>I'm thinking about installing xming on windows
08:00<@Alberth>you have a remote unix system?
08:01<@Alberth>iirc that windows ubuntu thingie can also open X programs
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have a windows 10 to play around with
08:01<@Alberth>it's a bit silly imho, installing OS B inside OS A to run B programs
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>how is that more silly than installing wine to run windows programs on linux?
08:02<@Alberth>it's not
08:04<Wolf01><Alberth> iirc that windows ubuntu thingie can also open X programs < Not yet, WSL doesn't have an xserver
08:04<Wolf01>And since it doesn't have kernel access, you can't just install one in ubuntu
08:09<@Alberth>I was quite sure I read that recently, but can't find it :(
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>but shouldn't a windows-x-server suffice?
08:11<Wolf01>Yep, that's why I said to install xming or similar
08:12<@Alberth>ha, blog says to "export DISPLAY=:0", something we stopped doing since ssh connections became standard :)
08:13<Wolf01>Yeah, but no xserver on display 0
08:14<Wolf01>I would like if they add one by default, so one shouldn't need mingw crap
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08:39<Samu>rivers aren't generated in tropic anymore?
08:40<@Alberth>were they ever ?
08:40<Wolf01>We removed rivers \o/
08:40<Samu>testing r27854 and i don't see rivers being generated, weird
08:41<Wolf01>Time to update the topic with "- Feature: removed rivers from tropic because yes"
08:41<Samu>tested in temperate tileset, and they're generated here
08:41<Samu>what happened
08:43<Samu>they're also generated in arctic
08:44<Samu>and in toyland too, just tested
08:44<Samu>why not tropic?
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09:08<andythenorth>isn’t it
09:13<andythenorth>it might have been
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09:13<andythenorth>Samu: tropic just doesn’t generate rivers much
09:13<andythenorth>nobody knows why :)
09:22<@peter1138>it's dry :p
09:24<supermop>depends on where tropic is i guess
09:25<andythenorth>it’s somewhere without rivers
09:26<andythenorth>also somewhere without mountains eh
09:26<andythenorth>it’s a bit better without TGP
09:27<andythenorth>at least original generator had the idea of half rainforest / half desert
09:27<andythenorth>instead of all flat, unfeatured
09:29<andythenorth>original tropic has crap coasts though
09:31<andythenorth>peter1138: why does TGP bother with so many lines of crap for tropic? o_O
09:31<andythenorth>it doesn’t need to do all that, just to make flat
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09:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: richk was a bit... strange?
09:39<andythenorth>it’s l
09:39<andythenorth>* literally just lies
09:40<andythenorth>“Desert landscape is handled different to all others to give a desert valley between two high mountains.”
09:40<andythenorth>is not the case
09:40<andythenorth>amusing situation
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i think what he meant was that desert is not applied above a certain level
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>which is a silly thing as well, but it's not TGP's fault
09:50<andythenorth>tile 24 (dec) is the water station tile?
09:55<frosch123>if in doubt, check whether it worked before mhl
10:11<andythenorth>I have 1.3.0 here
10:11<andythenorth>that doesn’t appear to have mhl, and tropic TGP is useless there too :)
10:16<@peter1138>maybe i should relook at my own generator
10:17<andythenorth>give it some weird tuning parameters :)
10:17<andythenorth>so we can make weird things
10:17<andythenorth>instead of a bunch of sensible parameters that do nothing good :)
10:19<andythenorth>plateaus: small<->wide
10:19<andythenorth>valleys: small<->wide
10:19<andythenorth>volcanoes: none<->lots
10:19<andythenorth>polders: none<->lots
10:19<@peter1138>i couldn't make it as fast as tgp
10:20<@peter1138>but then again
10:22<andythenorth>pick two
10:22<andythenorth>TGP is cheap, and fast :P
10:26<supermop>waiting for land to generate isn't that bad
10:26<supermop>unless you are insane and constantly rolling new 4kx4k maps
10:27<@peter1138>well you need to with tgp cos it's often poo :p
10:27<@peter1138>especially with the stupid variety bollocks
10:28<andythenorth>between TGP crap maps, and the random choices in GS, I have to use ‘newgame’ a lot :P
10:28<andythenorth>also FIRS building ports in stupid tiny seas
10:28<andythenorth>sometimes takes 15 mins to get a decent map-GS-FIRS combo
10:30<andythenorth>maybe I should fork Silicon Valley
10:30<andythenorth>add a cargo choosing menu
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10:48<quiznilo>in the base game, without any newgrfs, is there some year that cabooses become obsolete?
10:51<andythenorth>there are no cabooses in base game
10:51<quiznilo>that's why none are mentioned on the wiki
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10:54<andythenorth>ammonia plant should be like a mine eh?
10:54<andythenorth>haber process -> chemicals etc
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11:03<DannyK_>Hello, do bus or train depots have maintenance costs?
11:05<DannyK_>frosch123: how high?
11:05<frosch123>if you enable infra maintenance cost
11:06<frosch123>actually they only cost the same as track
11:06<DannyK_>frosch123: was it introduced in openttd or already there in ttd?
11:07<frosch123>infra maintenance is ottd 1.2 or 1.3
11:08<DannyK_>I'm asking and considering whether or not having four or more depots per line would be a good idea ...
11:09<_dp_>enabling breakdowns is a bad idea :p
11:10<DannyK_>_dp_: :)
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>there was a basic station maintenance before infra maintenance
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>but afaik nothing for depots
11:15<DannyK_>thank you all
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11:24<quiznilo>I use breakdowns
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11:25<quiznilo>they're cool, you have to be clever in places
11:26<DannyK_>quiznilo: yeah, I don't like making my life easier in games
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11:26<quiznilo>it's a challenge
11:28<DannyK_>quiznilo: I wonder if it would be possible to take $5000 and build a highly profitable network, starting with buses
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11:28<Samu>i think I got this, town bridges are no longer building over
11:28<quiznilo>I've given up trying to make money with road vehicles
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11:28<Samu>river tiles or near if there could be built a lock
11:28<quiznilo>I mean, it's possible, just looking at yearly profits
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11:28<andythenorth>Dakkus: if $5000 buys you a bus, a depot, and 2 stops
11:28<quiznilo>I use them in special situations
11:28<andythenorth>then yes
11:29<@Alberth>and connecting road between the stops :p
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11:30<Wolf01>Mmmh, mastering docker ebook, should I master docker too?
11:30<@Alberth>maybe one day
11:30<Wolf01>I'll download it anywau
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11:31<@Alberth>trouble of that is that at some point you also need to read all of it
11:31<Wolf01>Maybe... but this should be valid for my steam library too
11:31<Wolf01>I'm a hoarding wolf
11:32<quiznilo>I built new high-speed passenger line yesterday in competitive game... opponent thought he would be funny
11:33<andythenorth>Alberth: just build in town :)
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11:36<andythenorth>looked at that when I was designing FIRS Steeltown
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11:38<quiznilo>which newGRF was it that had vehicles starting in year 0?
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11:52*andythenorth got rid of last elements from C-pre-processor FIRS
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11:57<andythenorth>took a while :)
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11:57*andythenorth has an interesting refactoring problem
11:57<@Alberth>it's faster now?
11:58<andythenorth>it’s been faster for a month or so
11:58<andythenorth>for multiple reasons :)
11:58<andythenorth>the last couple of things I removed today were just tidying code
11:59<andythenorth>so I have hundreds of spritesets, all declaring a spurious ‘id’ string
11:59<andythenorth>because I didn’t know about __name__
12:00<andythenorth>I’d like to remove them with a script
12:01<@Alberth>sed magics
12:01<andythenorth>I figured there was a better way than reading the file with python and using splits :P
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12:01<@Alberth>python works too
12:02<@Alberth>I often read it as a list of lines, hack the lines, then write it back
12:02<@Alberth>especially useful for multi-line stuff
12:06<@Alberth>industry doesn't know a unique prefix?
12:06<andythenorth>in which case? o_O
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12:07<@Alberth>industry.add_spriteset(...) <-- seems like it could inject an id
12:07<@Alberth>ie why do you manually specify id = ... ?
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12:10<andythenorth>exactly :)
12:11<andythenorth>that’s why I want to delete them
12:11<andythenorth>it’s historical reasons
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12:11<andythenorth>I can probably just count first line after add_spriteset
12:11<andythenorth>and drop it
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12:11<andythenorth>then fix any error s manually
12:12<@Alberth>any "id = " line removed?
12:12<@Alberth>you seem to have more
12:12<andythenorth>any “id = “ *inside* a spriteset
12:13<andythenorth>spritelayout ids are needed currently
12:13<@Alberth>python script looks easiest
12:14<@Alberth>likely sed can do it too, but I'd need to search how to do it only for sprite sets
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12:47<Samu> - posted
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you could use python's compiler module to read the abstract syntax tree, delete the node with the id assignment, and generate new python code
12:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I considered just writing out new code with a template
12:56<andythenorth>your method sounds more sophisticated :)
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or you use awk, and on each spriteset line you switch on a flag, on each spritelayout line you switch off a flag, then drop the id line based on whether that flag is set
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>or just drop the lines matching "id.*spriteset"
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13:00<andythenorth>not sure I can get the name for a python object
13:01<andythenorth>they don’t have names
13:01<andythenorth>without the name….I still need the id :)
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't know what you're trying to do
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>but probably you can generate the id on the fly by just increasing a counter while you write the nml code
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>also, you can probably drop the variable for each spriteset, and just make a list of spritesets
13:06<andythenorth>not easy to reuse without the variable
13:06<andythenorth>I’m sure the spriteset ids could be generated
13:06<andythenorth>they’re meaningless as long as they’re unique and stable
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>how is "spritesets[10]" more difficult to use than "spriteset_11"?
13:08<andythenorth>it isn’t
13:08<andythenorth>but spriteset[10] is harder to use than spriteset_crane_animated
13:08<andythenorth>the variables aren’t always named spriteset_n
13:09<andythenorth>spritesets get stored in a list, generating ids should be trivial
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm, whatever
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14:18<andythenorth>done that
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14:23<andythenorth>multiplayer game? o-O
14:26<Wolf01> mesmerizing *_*
14:32*andythenorth trying to play openttd
14:33<andythenorth>can’t get a map without ports in tiny lakes
14:37<Wolf01>Increase water
14:43<andythenorth>could a coast tile cache a flag - for ‘is connected to map edge via sea’?
14:43<andythenorth>pathfinding that on demand might be unwise :P
14:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: trying to prevent cases like this
14:50<quiznilo>do industries in FIRS expand?
14:50<Wolf01>Mmmmh, that might be tricky
14:50<andythenorth>no industries in OpenTTD expand
14:50<andythenorth>Wolf01: it’s tricky :P
14:51<quiznilo>this oil refinery I have is giant, I don't remember it being this big, 4x6
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14:51<andythenorth>there have been suggestions about tile checks, $someone on here insisted there was a way
14:51<andythenorth>but it wasn’t Eddi so they were wrong :|
14:51<andythenorth>I think it needs to be handled by openttd, pathdinging
14:51<andythenorth>pathfinding :P
14:51<andythenorth>not newgrf
14:52<Wolf01>Pathdinging seem a good idea
14:53<andythenorth>quiznilo: probably just a big layout
14:54<Wolf01>If we do something really good for ships, like identification of water bodies, we should be able to fix even this problem for port industries
14:55<andythenorth>could kill it at source, by preventing tiny enclosed seas
14:55<andythenorth>TGP is, being kind to it, crap
14:55<Wolf01>Tiny enclosed seas are nice
14:56<Wolf01>Going to dine, bbl
14:56<andythenorth>if they were tiny enclosed lakes, the issue would disappear :)
14:56<andythenorth>sea types :P
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15:27<andythenorth>does anyone else get openttd window focus on mouse hover?
15:27<andythenorth>it’s driving me nuts
15:27<andythenorth>it appears to be intermittent
15:33<@peter1138>calculate water area
15:33<@peter1138>somehow :p
15:34<andythenorth>count connected water tiles
15:39<andythenorth>don’t even need to count all of them
15:39<andythenorth>@calc 32*32
15:39<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1024
15:40<andythenorth>@calc 64*64
15:40<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 4096
15:40<andythenorth>could cap at 4096
15:40<andythenorth>that’s definitely not a small sea
15:57<@Alberth>smallest map enitrely sea :p
15:58<@Alberth>so no sea industries at 64x64 ?
15:59<andythenorth>this is a good point :P
15:59<@Alberth>not sure if the economies make sense at such a map
15:59<andythenorth>any solution so far has unwanted side effects :)
16:00<@Alberth>I think "border" should count as infinite
16:00<@Alberth>or "nuf"
16:00<@Alberth>"enuf" is better, probably
16:01<@Alberth>I think I played at 64x64 with FIRS one time, looong time ago. Island was so crowded, you had to use trucks
16:02<@Alberth>neighbouring industries just a handful of tiles away :)
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16:03<@Alberth>I had one of each, I think, was quite fun
16:08<andythenorth>surprised they fit :)
16:09<@peter1138>i think 64x64 is a bit small
16:09<@peter1138>but i played a good 128x128 game once
16:09<@peter1138>also 64x128+ is okay
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16:13<andythenorth>so 32x32 minimum sea? :P
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16:20<@Alberth>try it, imho
16:21<andythenorth>no idea how to do that :)
16:21<andythenorth>I’m assuming it either (1) is enforced at map gen time or (2) newgrf can treat it as a tile property
16:27<Wolf01>So, remove water, problem solved
16:31<@Alberth>can't you peek at a few tiles, say one every 3x3, and require at least N of them are water?
16:32<Wolf01>I'm thinking to remove some code this evening but I'm afraid I would panic as soon as I look at the code
16:32<andythenorth>bye Alberth
16:32<@Alberth>delete lines with eyes closed :p
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16:45<V453000>friday friday gotta get forum riot on friday
16:46<__ln__>did anyone know that chinese airspace operates in meters, not feet?
16:47<__ln__>well i hope the pilots knew, but i mean anyone here.
16:48<V453000>I iz slug pilot
16:48<V453000>do I count?
16:49<__ln__>from now on you shall be the count V453000
16:49<V453000>good, then I dare answering thee that I didn't know for shit
16:49<argoneus>what forum riot V friend
16:50<V453000>people just getting very impatient about factorio update
16:50<V453000>I understand them but yeah
16:51<Wolf01>You old fooook, you are playing the next version since forever :D
17:02<V453000>I was playing it Wolf01 when it didn't have almost any of the new features :) after that I simply didn't have time
17:03<Wolf01>Busy V is good V :P
17:04<andythenorth>such bed
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 15 00:00:09 2017